This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast

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In this episode of This is HCD, Gerry Scullion is joined (again!) by service design pioneer Marc Stickdorn – recorded right after they both spoke at SD in Gov in Edinburgh.

We walk (literally) through the current state of service design, why so many teams feel stuck, and how journey management can help organisations move beyond one-off projects to achieve truly systemic change.

We talk about:
  • How to scale service design beyond a single team and embed it organisation-wide
  • Journey management, service architecture and “journey ops” – and why naming really matters
  • Building scaffolding for long-term impact (using the Dublin City Council work as an example)
  • How to speak the language of leadership and show measurable ROI
  • Why stealth projects can be your best way to build credibility
  • The role of AI and tooling – where it helps, and where it’s genuinely dangerous
  • Why leaders can’t outsource understanding to an algorithm
If you’re trying to move service design from nice decks to real organisational change – in public services or the private sector – this episode is for you.

🔗 Links mentioned
– Marc’s upcoming book & community: https://www.thisisjourneymanagement.com
– Smaply blog & resources: https://www.smaply.com

Sponsor links
Click here to watch a video of this episode.

Creators and Guests

Host
Gerry Scullion
Gerry Scullion is an Irish-born, globally recognised service designer, educator, podcaster, coach, and founder based in Dublin. With 22+ years in design, his career spans roles in interaction design, UX, and leadership positions—most notably as Head of Design at Myspace Australia/NZ and later serving clients like Cochlear, Microsoft, Aer Lingus, and government bodies  . He’s the Founder & CEO of The Human‑Centered Design Network and the voice behind This is HCD, a popular podcast and design community with over one million downloads . A committed educator, he has developed several online courses—spanning UX fundamentals, journey mapping, stakeholder mapping, prototyping, and service blueprints—as well as authoring “Service Design for Executives” on Pluralsight . A passionate keynote speaker at events like UX Scotland and Service Design Days, he shares his insights on resilience in design, ethical frameworks (“do no harm”), and embedding design within tech-led environments . Gerry is also Co‑founder and Director at Humana Design, a Dublin-based agency focusing on design research, consultancy, and enabling design transformation . Beyond design, he’s a coach and mentor to designers worldwide, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a former Councillor for Ireland . In his personal time, Gerry is a musician, barista-in-training, gardener, and family man living by the sea in Clontarf, Dublin
MS
Guest
Marc Stickdorn

What is This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast?

Welcome to This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast, the global show for designers, innovators, and changemakers who want to create better products, services, and experiences.

Hosted by Gerry Scullion, with over 1-million downloads worldwide.

Each episode dives into conversations with leading voices in service design, UX design, interaction design, customer experience, and design strategy. Together, we explore the methods, mindsets, and real-world stories that bring human-centered design and design thinking to life.

Whether you’re a UX researcher, service design practitioner, product manager, or design leader, you’ll find actionable insights, practical tools, and inspiration to elevate your practice and drive meaningful change.

Tune in and join the global human-centered design community — learn how to design with purpose, create inclusive solutions, and shape a more thoughtful future.

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Gery Scullion and I'm a [00:00:05] human centered, serves design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin Ireland. Now, today in the [00:00:10] show, I'm delighted to welcome probably the most, uh, requested person and on the most loved [00:00:15] person.

[00:00:15] Gerry Scullion: He's been on our show over the last decade, and that is Mark stick torn. He is [00:00:20] highly regarded as the pioneer of service design, creating some seminal books, [00:00:25] and he's the CEO of Mapley. We were speaking together at SD and [00:00:30] gov in Edinburgh, and I took this opportunity to really pull Mark into the conversation around [00:00:35] what we mean by journey management.

[00:00:36] Gerry Scullion: Okay? So we're gonna be speaking, uh, a lot more in the state of [00:00:40] service design today and where we see the opportunities strategically for us to sit and [00:00:45] provide value to the people that hire us. So the three key takeaways in this episode, number one, is. [00:00:50] Scaling service design. Through Journey Management, mark unpacks how organizations can move beyond [00:00:55] project based design to embed design at systemic organization wide level.

[00:00:59] Gerry Scullion: This is what we [00:01:00] spoke about at sd. And go myself and Mark and Owen Swift from Dub from Dublin City Council. [00:01:05] We ensured that when we were working with Dublin City, we out, we provided the scaffolding there for a lot of [00:01:10] the, the key metrics, which still have to be defined in many ways. And gives us that scaffolding [00:01:15] for service design to blossom.

[00:01:16] Gerry Scullion: So the number two thing that I want you to take away is creating impact that speaks the [00:01:20] language of leadership. He shares practical advice on how to frame your work, build stealth [00:01:25] projects, and demonstrate measurable value, whether you're in the public sector or the private sector. And [00:01:30] number three, the role of ai.

[00:01:31] Gerry Scullion: And tooling. In the future of design, we discuss how to embrace [00:01:35] technology responsibly and using it to accelerate, not replace the [00:01:40] deep human understanding that sits at the heart of design. If you're leading change shaping [00:01:45] experiences, or trying to navigate the next evolution of service design in your organization, [00:01:50] this episode is just for you.

[00:01:52] Gerry Scullion: And before we jump in, please don't forget to like and [00:01:55] subscribe. If you like this episode, pass it on to your team. It helps us grow, helps us find new [00:02:00] listeners, and helps us ultimately drive impact that we do, and we always focus on where we're creating new [00:02:05] episodes on the podcast. It's a great one.

[00:02:06] Gerry Scullion: Let's jump straight in.[00:02:10] [00:02:15]

[00:02:17] Gerry Scullion: My buddy, my mark, my main man. [00:02:20] Um, mark, it's great to have you back on the podcast. [00:02:25] Um, I feel like it should be called, this is HTD Jerry and Mark's podcast. You've been on so [00:02:30] often. Um, we're here, we're in Edinburgh. We did a talk together [00:02:35] and I want you, 'cause I see you as a [00:02:40] pioneer of service design. You were the first seminal book out in the market [00:02:45] in the late, in the early 2010s.

[00:02:47] Gerry Scullion: 2010, exactly. Yeah. 2010. So [00:02:50] I believe we're in a, in the state of service design here at the moment. [00:02:55] Where we're all kind of, we're struggling in a chaotic world. We just saw, saw Rachel Dika [00:03:00] speak, um, and I loved on normalization Yes. And hypernormalization. And it [00:03:05] resonated with a lot of the stuff that we were speaking about and setting the scaffolding up, [00:03:10] um, for service design thinking and doing to blossom.

[00:03:14] Gerry Scullion: [00:03:15] Where do you see the, um, the, the next. [00:03:20] Kind of foray for service design within organizations. [00:03:25] Um, what, what's the most important steps for service designers right now, do you believe to be focusing on? [00:03:30] Huh, that's a tough question. In 50 words or less

[00:03:34] Marc Stickdorn: [00:03:35] impossible. I, I don't know. It's, it's really. It is [00:03:40] such a, such a weird time with so much change from outside that [00:03:45] it's really hard to say what like, like to predict how the world will look like [00:03:50] in five or 10 years.

[00:03:50] Marc Stickdorn: So it's really hard to say like, this is what you should be doing. But I think what [00:03:55] we should be aware of, the impact we can have and. We should [00:04:00] focus on these kind of values that we really care about humans, that we [00:04:05] really want to have a positive impact on humans.

[00:04:08] Gerry Scullion: Hmm.

[00:04:08] Marc Stickdorn: And also be aware of the impact we're [00:04:10] having.

[00:04:10] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I mean, more and more we're seeing organizations, [00:04:15] um, you know, lots of people are losing their jobs in design. We'll walk around this way, [00:04:20] we're kind of doing a loop. Um, but, but generally speaking, people are struggling [00:04:25] to, uh. Move the craft forward and move organizations forward to become [00:04:30] more aware of the impacts of poor project planning, [00:04:35] pure implementation.

[00:04:37] Gerry Scullion: Um, and that cascades down to [00:04:40] citizens. It cascades down to customers as well. And it feels like in some ways we've been [00:04:45] stuck in a stasis for quite a while. Um, and I know. [00:04:50] From, for as long as I've known you, you've been talking about this new framework. [00:04:55] You know, we, we call it Journey Management. Just speaking to that, for people who [00:05:00] don't know that, don't know what Journey Management is, there's episodes out there on the podcast where we've [00:05:05] covered it before, so we're not gonna cover over that old ground.

[00:05:08] Gerry Scullion: But what does that give [00:05:10] organizations and what are you seeing from coaching organizations at the moment? [00:05:15] Um, what, what are the, the benefits? What are the, the kind of sapling moments if you want?

[00:05:19] Marc Stickdorn: [00:05:20] So, so first of all, I don't think we, we are stuck, like I see [00:05:25] constant evolution and normalization of service [00:05:30] design, and I think that is fantastic to see like, okay, where we are, like the state of service [00:05:35] design today, if you compare with like 10 years ago Yeah, it's completely d.

[00:05:39] Marc Stickdorn: [00:05:40] It's huge now. People talk about it as a, as a normal thing. [00:05:45] Yes, of course. We need to do that. And we didn't see that 10 years ago, like 10 years ago. [00:05:50] That was like, if we go back further, like like 20 years [00:05:55] ago, we talked about how important customer experience is. No one talks about that now. Like we know it.

[00:05:59] Marc Stickdorn: It's a [00:06:00] given. Yeah, it's a given. 10 years ago we talked about how important service designer is, [00:06:05] how important it's to focus on that and so on. Yeah. It's, it's almost a [00:06:10] given now, at least in many organizations. So where we are now, it's rather about how do we [00:06:15] actually do this at scale?

[00:06:16] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Marc Stickdorn: So it's not only.

[00:06:18] Marc Stickdorn: A small team doing it, [00:06:20] but how can we do it across different teams, across different departments in [00:06:25] the organization. And that's where journey management, service [00:06:30] architecture, journey ops, whatever you call it in organization. 'cause I think language [00:06:35] is so important to, um, to also think about [00:06:40] or how to bring it into an organization.

[00:06:42] Marc Stickdorn: 'cause it needs to resonate with the organization. Yes, exactly. [00:06:45] So naming is really important and, um, what [00:06:50] it, what it does is it helps you to scale service design by [00:06:55] focusing on prioritization.

[00:06:56] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:06:56] Marc Stickdorn: What do we need to do? I think that we, we always need [00:07:00] to talk at two different levels. It says one level [00:07:05] where

[00:07:05] Gerry Scullion: you

[00:07:05] Marc Stickdorn: talk.

[00:07:05] Gerry Scullion: It's pretty windy here. This is Scotland. This is Scotland. [00:07:10] This is a perfect summer's day in Edinburgh. Let's sit over here at this bench over here. [00:07:15] So

[00:07:16] Marc Stickdorn: we're talking two different levels. We have on the one [00:07:20] level kind of immediate actions, if you like, to horizon one, maybe horizon two, [00:07:25] where it's about like what is the near future?

[00:07:27] Marc Stickdorn: Yeah. You talk about fixing pain points, [00:07:30] focusing on. Identified unmet needs and so on.

[00:07:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:07:34] Marc Stickdorn: And [00:07:35] then we have level three, horizon three, where we talk about [00:07:40] the pharma future larger change management. What is the vision for the organization, the [00:07:45] vision for a product, and how far away are we today from this vision?

[00:07:49] Marc Stickdorn: Where are these [00:07:50] gaps and how can we close these gaps? So

[00:07:51] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:07:52] Marc Stickdorn: What we're seeing now is we use [00:07:55] services design not only for on a per-project basis, but we use it [00:08:00] to craft from a vision for the organization, the vision for the experience. How [00:08:05] should it feel in 10, 15 years, even though we don't know how the future [00:08:10] looks like, we start thinking about this.

[00:08:12] Gerry Scullion: Okay. And from

[00:08:13] Marc Stickdorn: that we, we [00:08:15] tied down our strategy. What do we need to do now? So we are actually preparing ourselves for the future. [00:08:20] Yeah.

[00:08:20] Gerry Scullion: So. A few minutes ago, you were saying like people aren't really talking, they don't need to [00:08:25] sell in what CX is. They know it's a given. In my experience, when people come to [00:08:30] you, okay.

[00:08:30] Gerry Scullion: They kind of know what journey management is. They wanna do it. In my experience. I'm still in that kind [00:08:35] of like bringing them on the journey, showing the value that it could be demonstrating the ROI, [00:08:40] I'm kind of earlier in the sequence. Um, lots of [00:08:45] organizations out there don't have, uh, leaders perhaps [00:08:50] who really.

[00:08:51] Gerry Scullion: Look at it as being the North star. They may think [00:08:55] of service design as being a stepping stone to the North Star, and it's just one part of [00:09:00] many business functions that can be used to, to deliver those experiences. So it [00:09:05] makes it very difficult for teams to, uh, move ahead. [00:09:10] They, they're getting that resistance.

[00:09:11] Gerry Scullion: Well go down here again, we're just walking around the grounds of. The university or [00:09:15] they're making it really difficult for service designers to deliver those experiences. And we [00:09:20] heard from Rachel Dees in her keynote there about what that feels like. It is like that slap in the face and then you're [00:09:25] going back again and you're repeatedly doing that hypernormalization.

[00:09:29] Gerry Scullion: So [00:09:30] I guess I'm really keen to hear, uh, more around [00:09:35] advice to those people. Um, who, you know, they [00:09:40] might be in the private sector, they might be in the public service sector, and they really want to deliver great experiences [00:09:45] and that lack of adoption and lack of leadership support and lack of awareness and education at leadership [00:09:50] level.

[00:09:50] Gerry Scullion: Um, how can they nudge this forward?

[00:09:54] Marc Stickdorn: It's, it's, it's [00:09:55] different from organization. Organization obviously. So it, it's just whatever I say now [00:10:00] might apply or might not apply to any specific situation. Right. That's a

[00:10:02] Gerry Scullion: caveat.

[00:10:03] Marc Stickdorn: He's given a caveat here.[00:10:05]

[00:10:07] Marc Stickdorn: Thank you for framing that. Thank you. Thank you. Just [00:10:10] so, um. What I, what I've seen working [00:10:15] is if you, if you don't phrase it as the service design project, whatever, yeah. [00:10:20] But focus on the outcome. Call it a stealth project. A project that don't appear on the radar of the [00:10:25] organization. Yeah. Use a very boring name for it if you name, need to name it, or use [00:10:30] whatever project you're working in and start applying some of the principles, the tools, the [00:10:35] methods, the ways of working.

[00:10:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:10:37] Marc Stickdorn: Try to build your first [00:10:40] case study, and if you do it. Try to [00:10:45] create a measurable impact.

[00:10:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:10:48] Marc Stickdorn: And like whatever your [00:10:50] organization is, is caring about. If it's a, a private company, it might be revenue. If it's [00:10:55] public services, it might be, um, um, costs. If it [00:11:00] is about care healthcare, it might be like the amount of people you can [00:11:05] positively impact if it's.

[00:11:07] Marc Stickdorn: About trauma informed design, it might [00:11:10] be the quality of impact it might have on people. So whatever you as an [00:11:15] organization really care for. What, what is, what is your, your mission? And try to [00:11:20] tie your project to ask. Quantitatively as [00:11:25] possible, as measurably as possible to any of these [00:11:30] values.

[00:11:30] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:31] Gerry Scullion: And if you're

[00:11:31] Marc Stickdorn: able to do that, you can, you can, you're prepared for the [00:11:35] question, what is the return of investment?

[00:11:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:37] Marc Stickdorn: Like, try to keep a lock [00:11:40] about your investment side.

[00:11:41] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:41] Marc Stickdorn: And try to identify the impact. If [00:11:45] you can't do this, you have a success story from within your own organization.

[00:11:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:11:50]

[00:11:50] Marc Stickdorn: And that resonates then with people don't talk about your [00:11:55] approach.

[00:11:55] Marc Stickdorn: Yeah. People don't care about services.

[00:11:57] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:57] Marc Stickdorn: People don't care about journey management. [00:12:00] They care about the impact we can have with that. Yeah. And that's what we need to focus [00:12:05] on.

[00:12:05] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:12:05] Marc Stickdorn: So don't focus on. If, if you think back of Super [00:12:10] Mario Yeah. The video game.

[00:12:12] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:12:12] Marc Stickdorn: Don't focus on the flower that Super Mario [00:12:15] can grab.

[00:12:15] Marc Stickdorn: Yeah. But focus on how, what, what Super Mario becomes. Yeah. [00:12:20] Once you grab this flower or the mushroom or whatever.

[00:12:22] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Or the level you can get to the score. Yes. [00:12:25] Okay. So the stepping stones to get there, say you're at that [00:12:30] point, advancement of maturity is happening in your organization. [00:12:35] At some point there's a tooling problem, and this is a [00:12:40] segue for you to talk about the work that you're doing.

[00:12:42] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You've dedicated a large portion of your [00:12:45] life to creating, uh, software. That's right. Okay. I'm writing books as well, of [00:12:50] course. Um. Where do you see [00:12:55] the future of that kinda tooling space in helping enable that? 'cause obviously we're in the, [00:13:00] the world of ai, uh, we'll go on this way and [00:13:05] I'd love to understand where you see it going.

[00:13:06] Marc Stickdorn: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Gerry Scullion: So [00:13:10]

[00:13:10] Marc Stickdorn: f first of all, tooling helps.

[00:13:11] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:13:13] Marc Stickdorn: Choosing the right tool is [00:13:15] important and, and finding a tool that matches your way of working, not the other way around. [00:13:20] The tool shouldn't dictate the way you're working. It should be the other way around.

[00:13:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:13:24] Marc Stickdorn: Now, [00:13:25] if you found a tool that works for you, um, if we look at AI features [00:13:30] like they are the generative [00:13:35] ai, like that helps you with like speeding up to get started.

[00:13:38] Marc Stickdorn: Like yeah, you have a [00:13:40] blank slate. How do you get to your first journeys and so on. Okay, good enough. If you [00:13:45] use ai, it quickly helps you to create a quick journey and so on. But yeah. The [00:13:50] danger I see there is that we often stop at this level,

[00:13:53] Gerry Scullion: right?

[00:13:54] Marc Stickdorn: We create a [00:13:55] map, it looks convincing. Good enough. Yeah. We put a bit of data [00:14:00] in.

[00:14:00] Marc Stickdorn: If it's automated, we upload a few reports and interviews [00:14:05] and bam, that's it. Good enough. Yeah. People start taking decisions based [00:14:10] on data they don't understand anymore. Yeah, and I think this is really dangerous, so we should [00:14:15] see AI as a companion. Right. As a tool that helps us in our work [00:14:20] reduce maybe redundant work for us, helps us to get started with the first few steps.

[00:14:24] Marc Stickdorn: [00:14:25] Okay. But we need to ensure that there is someone responsible [00:14:30] for the experience visualizing this one journey.

[00:14:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:14:33] Marc Stickdorn: And if they take decisions on [00:14:35] prioritization, which pain point to fix, which vision to follow. Hmm. It shouldn't be [00:14:40] dictated by an algorithm. It should be a [00:14:45] conscious decision. Yeah. That is matching the values of the company and division of the company.

[00:14:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, [00:14:50] absolutely. I mean, like, that is a, a shout out to leaders out there who'd be [00:14:55] like, well, AI can do a lot of this stuff. Uh, we can generate a journey map, that's fine. We, we don't [00:15:00] need people to be creating the journey map. You can do it ourselves. A lot of it, I think that is [00:15:05] overlooked is the. The actual going out and doing the research.

[00:15:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And being able to smell the [00:15:10] context, literally the physical context of the room that you're researching in and trying to understand the [00:15:15] context of the people that you're designing for. What, what are they going through? Absolutely. And AI can sometimes [00:15:20] make that a little bit too superficial.

[00:15:21] Marc Stickdorn: And I think the, the [00:15:25] dominant story should not be, how can we speed up this process?

[00:15:29] Marc Stickdorn: How can we make [00:15:30] it faster? Because the problem is that people don't spend enough time with. [00:15:35] Journeys or the, the experiences these journeys actually visualize with the [00:15:40] people in the field out there? Yeah. It is such a difference if you [00:15:45] experience things yourself. If you go out and talk to people yourself, and you [00:15:50] have this implicit knowledge yourself when you take decisions versus you [00:15:55] get the data, you just see the summary of data in whatever form or shape, and then [00:16:00] take a decision based on this.

[00:16:03] Marc Stickdorn: Absolutely. Interpretations of data. [00:16:05]

[00:16:05] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. So we're doing a shorter podcast 'cause we're here at SD and golf. [00:16:10] Um, people can follow you obviously on the internet. You're working on another book Journey Management. [00:16:15] I'm sorry for

[00:16:16] Marc Stickdorn: that. Yes. Way, way, way slower than expected. Yeah, it's all right. Take [00:16:20] one.

[00:16:20] Gerry Scullion: Lot lots of stuff going on. I have kids.

[00:16:22] Marc Stickdorn: You have kids. It's such a different writing experience [00:16:25] now.

[00:16:25] Gerry Scullion: Yes, I know. But people give, give a shout

[00:16:27] Marc Stickdorn: out to the URLs for the, for the Future book. [00:16:30] It's, uh, this is journey management.com. You can still sign up for [00:16:35] co-creation if you're interested. Okay. Look up this way.

[00:16:36] Marc Stickdorn: And I

[00:16:37] Gerry Scullion: think

[00:16:37] Marc Stickdorn: this

[00:16:37] Gerry Scullion: might be res, but we'll see.

[00:16:38] Marc Stickdorn: Hm. [00:16:40]

[00:16:40] Gerry Scullion: Um, no, it is. Let's go there. We don't wanna be following anywhere into the [00:16:45] rooms.

[00:16:45] Marc Stickdorn: So, um, this is journey management.com. You can still sign up for corporation if you're [00:16:50] interested. Yeah. Um, we have, uh, a block on our company website, [00:16:55] snappy.com. If you look for Block, you find articles there, absolutely.

[00:16:57] Marc Stickdorn: Published by us and guest author. [00:17:00] Yeah. And follow me on LinkedIn and say

[00:17:02] Gerry Scullion: hi at conferences like this. Yeah. Fantastic. [00:17:05] One last thing. The work that we spoke about here today, we worked on it. [00:17:10] Collaboratively with Dubin City, we're available for that kind of coaching and training as well. Being able [00:17:15] to assist, uh, social and public impact organizations to [00:17:20] set the scaffolding up for their own services, the Blossom within our organization, if you are [00:17:25] interested, right?

[00:17:26] Gerry Scullion: You know, to get in touch with me at this stage. Mark, thanks so much for your [00:17:30] time. Um, looking forward to, we're going to Sweden next week. Yes. Do this all over again. Yes. I'm [00:17:35] looking forward to [00:17:40] it.