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The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
Jen Fisher: [00:00:00] There's a silent crisis happening in our workplaces right now. While we're sitting in meetings, coordinating projects and hitting deadlines, millions of us are also managing something else entirely caring for aging or chronically ill Family members we're juggling medical appointments, insurance claims, and life altering decisions, often feeling completely alone in the process.
I know this because I'm living it. I'm a caregiver for my mom who has Alzheimer's disease, and there have been so many moments where I've felt lost, overwhelmed, and unsure where to turn for support. It took me far too long to realize that this invisible struggle is affecting more people than we ever talk about, and it's having a profound impact on how we show up at work.
This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, and today I'm speaking with Jennifer Levin, a television writer, journalist, and the founder of Caregiver [00:01:00] Collective, a national online support group for millennial caregivers. Her powerful new book generation Care. The new culture of caregiving shines a light on what she calls the invisible generation of young caregivers who are shouldering unprecedented responsibilities.
Jennifer became a caregiver herself at 32 when her father was diagnosed with a rare degenerative illness, feeling isolated and unprepared. She discovered she was far from alone and that existing support systems weren't designed for her generation's unique challenges. Her writing has appeared in the Washington Post.
Cosmopolitan and numerous other publications, and she's been featured by PBS NewsHour and the New York Times for her advocacy work.
This episode of The Work Well Podcast is made possible because of our friends at Lyra Health. Lyra Health is a premier global workforce mental health solution trusted by leading companies [00:02:00] like Starbucks, Morgan Stanley, Lululemon, and Zoom. Lyra provides personalized care to over 17 million people with fast access to evidence-based providers and tools that deliver proven results, including faster recovery and reduced healthcare costs.
This season Lira and the Work Well Podcast are teaming up to bring you more insights on how to build a thriving work culture for today and the future. We'll be bringing you cutting edge data and research on workplace mental health and wellbeing, and we'll have some lira experts occasionally join us to share their perspectives on workforce mental health and creating psychologically safe and effective work environments.
Find out more at Lira Health. Dot com slash work. Well, thank you to Lira for helping us elevate this season of the Work Well Podcast.
Jennifer, welcome to the show. Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. So your [00:03:00] book is called Generation Care and it focuses on millennial caregivers. So can you explain to me what makes millennial caregiving different from previous generations? And I'm asking this because I'm a Gen Xer. Mm-hmm. And I'm going through everything you talk about in your book myself.
And so. I'm just curious if you're seeing similar challenges across generations, and if you can kind of break that down for me.
Jennifer Lavin: Sure. Well, really it's twofold. It's caregiving as a millennial within our generation, the way that we were raised, the societal influences we've had as we've come of age, and then there is caregiving when you feel younger than expected.
Mm-hmm. Which overlaps with the millennial generation, but also Gen X as well. Definitely Gen Z rising. And so, you know, it kind of splits into those two avenues. I would say that with millennials in particular and our generation, there are a lot of things that I found differentiate us [00:04:00] from previous generations in our caregiving.
Uh, just to quickly break it down, one is economic. A lot of us have graduated college or entered the workforce at times of major economic crises that previous generations did not. And there are a lot of different reports on how that affects us economically, not just for the couple of years in which we're experiencing the crisis, but for decades later when you are building your career at a time that the entire, either global or national economy is kind of struggling.
And then when you add caregiving on top of that, you're adding on a lot of emotional stress on top of financial stress, and you're finding yourself paying for things that. Maybe you couldn't even afford in better times, but definitely during an economic crisis become a stretch. So there are, um, generational [00:05:00] differences like that also that our generation, meaning millennials, we are caregiving at a younger age in larger numbers than ever before.
So. Definitely Gen X has, you know, had an overlap in that, but it's really millennials that have come of age during this, your crisis in the United States and changes in our. Healthcare system that kind of forced us into this caregiver role at a younger age. Things like medical advancements, which are great, you know, people living longer and longer with chronic illness or disease and doing all of that at home.
But what has been often neglected is, well, who is assisting them in that and once they leave the hospital, who is taking up the care at home? Because we often don't have a solution for that. The imperfect solution becomes the family will do it, and when you are at a younger age, maybe haven't had [00:06:00] children or are unmarried, or if you are younger in your career, the family may assume that the younger person is the one prime to take that on.
Jen Fisher: So we have, because you don't have all those quote unquote, other responsibilities.
Jennifer Lavin: Exactly. So it's almost seemed as if it's, well, it's easier for us and you know, that becomes its own argument within families. Um, so there is. That set of it of being a millennial. And then there's probably what, you know, what you may be experiencing as a Gen Xer, which I hear from Gen Xers quite frequently is still that feeling of taking it on younger than expected, that you could be in your late forties, fifties and still kind of.
Times feel like a kid in that situation because you may have thought this will come further down the line and you know, you find yourself taking on care. You know, maybe for a parent, [00:07:00] but also for a spouse or a child with special needs. You know, there are so many ways in which we can experience family caregiving, particularly in today's society, that have really kind of spread that.
Quote unquote, burden across multiple generations and not what we're typically used to seeing the representation of which are people who are much older, taking on care. In my own experience,
Jen Fisher: in my early to, to mid forties, but even today, many years into it, I, I find myself. Saying, gosh, I wish somebody would've told me about this.
I wish somebody would've prepared me for this. Um, I, I might say that on a daily basis, even, even now, which is many years into caregiving and from somebody who has the privilege of having. More resources than many, which is not lost on me ever. And so you [00:08:00] became a caregiver at 32, which was significantly younger than when I did.
And your father was diagnosed with a, a rare degenerative illness. So can you talk to me about what that experience was like? How did it change your understanding of what care means?
Jennifer Lavin: Sure I was right. I was in my very early thirties when my dad was first diagnosed with Parkinson's, and he then, as his needs increased, moved into an assisted living facility and later we've came to learn that that was an erroneous diagnosis.
What he actually had was progressive sup, nuclear palsy or PSP and. As the falls increased and as he became more dependent, he was forced to move into a nursing home for 24 hour supervision. Now he was living in New York where I'm from New York City. And in the context of care, I find it important to say I'm from New York City because the resources available [00:09:00] there are much different than a family that's living in upstate New York or other areas of the state.
Absolutely. Um, and so I was living in LA at the time. I was, um, working in television. I'm a writer and I was working on a TV show there at the time, and. Really, it was the phone call I received when it was told to us that he needed to move from assisted living into a nursing home. That phone call was on the heels of my dad being hospitalized for a fall, so he is in the hospital, which was.
Shocking and scary, um, information to receive. But not only that, they were telling us that he needed to move into a nursing home by the end of the week because he couldn't legally move back into assisted living. So I had to fly from LA back to New York. Um, my mom and I, my parents were divorced, but my mom was involved in my dad's care.
Um, we went [00:10:00] around just. You know, uh, touring nursing homes for a weekend, um, you know, making frantically this huge, uh, frantically is yes, such to be understatement because it is, it is a decision that you have to make very, very quickly. You have to make very well because this is where your family member who you love will be living and you're choosing that experience for them.
In their living environment, they're receiving the care that they need. So you are looking at, you know, what does the furniture look like? Will he be happy here? Who are the other residents? What neighborhood is it? All the things that we consider when we, you know, look to move homes. But most importantly, you're also seeing what care do they provide here?
What are the closest hospitals? How are they encouraging people to stay active through the day so that their residents don't become depressed and even more ill? So it's. All of these questions, which I have never had to ask before. I'm figuring out as I go, and I've never even stepped foot in a [00:11:00] nursing home before.
Yeah. Before I had to choose one for my dad. So it was the logistics, it was the time crunch, and then it was also the emotional aspect of it that was sad, scary. So many different emotions layered on top of each other, and you know, it had to be done quickly. So for me, that was the moment that my care really took on a different.
Aspect of the nature of it really changed, um, because I think before then I was definitely involved, but my father was a lot more independent. And so my involvement was really, you know, staying on top of the diagnosis, following up on his medications, the paperwork of it, and you know, um, staying on top of the information.
And now it became, I'm really making decisions for him and. That really changed, particularly at a younger age, creates quite a role reversal where never before had I taken on this level of responsibility [00:12:00] in my parental unit and my dad became more dependent on me. So I would say caregiving at a younger age really introduces all of these emotions and you know, a huge learning curve that.
I think we all experience as caregivers, but particularly when you're younger, come as quite a shock.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, I, I mean, I, um, like I said, I was, I was in my early to mid forties and I, I barely felt prepared or not prepared at all. And I think you mentioned it, but the, that the role reversal, you know, the, the child becoming the parent and the parent becoming the child, I mean, pardon my language, but that is the biggest mind.
Mm-hmm. That I think anybody can ever go through and like learning how to, I, I don't know if, I don't know if I, I can't even stand here today and say that I have fully learned how to deal with that. Right. I mean, you just, you [00:13:00] learn to cope or you just accept it, I guess. Um. Mm-hmm. But, but yeah, I, I mean, so, so much in there.
Um, and, and so you, you mentioned before that you're a writer, so you first wrote about this or. One of your first writings about this was for Cosmopolitan, the magazine, and after you wrote about this, you were flooded from other younger caregivers. So what did those responses teach you about how widespread this issue really is?
Because I think it's really widespread, yet we, it kind of stays in this shadow
Jennifer Lavin: still. Absolutely. I would say what that taught me about how widespread it was is. I knew statistically it was widespread, which is why I wrote the article. I wrote that article after my father passed away, and I had read a statistic on how many millennials were caregiving, and I had felt so isolated in the experience I didn't know.
I didn't [00:14:00] think I knew anybody else my age going through something similar. I didn't identify myself as a caregiver. I didn't know to, I was my dad's daughter doing what needed to be done. And I was very, you know, we talked about role reversal, but as much as I was taking on the role reversal, I was also very cognizant trying as hard as I could to maintain the ways in which he was still my authority figure.
Um, I was really. Still trying to bode him for advice and then, you know, to have gone through that experience. Come through the shock of it really, and then learn that there were so many other people in my generation who were also dealing with this experience. I thought, okay, this is crazy because that tells me we're not talking about it.
And so that is why I wrote that article for Cosmo was to introduce people to my story so that they could also learn that they were caregivers. Because my assumption, which I think was true, was that if I didn't identify as a [00:15:00] caregiver. Most other people my age aren't as well. That means that we have an issue in communication in our country of, of what a caregiver is and who a caregiver is.
And so I really thought people relate to me. They'll then learn they're a caregiver. They can then reach out for resources and we can vocalize how many of us are going through this. Because at the time, there were no resources or support really dedicated to people who were younger going through this and all of the issues we face in taking it on, which looked different from the issues that somebody later in life is facing taking it on.
Yeah. So I would say what I learned was knowing statistically how widespread it was. The reaction that I received really taught me how many people in my own life were going through it because it was people who had not told me or not told others who then read my article and reached out, and really just learning the proximity of it.
That all this time I felt so alone yet. [00:16:00] This girl I went to elementary school with, you know, we're not close, but we know each other. She read my article and she reached out and she said, I'm going through this too. And, um, all of the people I didn't know going through it, you know, that it really told me there's a community of us and it only becomes a community when we start talking to each other.
And so at that time I also started. My caregiver group, the caregiver collective, so that it started as millennials, but really it's come to include anybody who feels younger than expected as a caregiver, could find each other online, find support, trade resources. I felt like there was so much I had learned as a caregiver, just the logistical stuff.
And then after my dad passed, I thought, well, what do I do with this information? I, it's like getting a degree and then, you know. That role is no longer available to you. And so I thought, you know, who can I give this information to to help them? And that's how why I started the group. And [00:17:00] it's really become its own support system.
But also that's where I was picking up the trends of how we are experiencing caregiving differently at a younger age.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Well, so first of all, I'm a participant in the caregiver collective, so thank you because I too have learned so much from from that group, even though I'm not a millennial. So thank you for allowing me to be a part of it.
Course. Also, can you talk to me a little bit about why you think. We're not talking about this experience, like what is it? So I think there's part of it that, like you said, people don't identify themselves as a caregiver because it's not something that young people ever thought that they might be doing.
But why is it that we're not having these conversations and that we're not, that we're not talking about it?
Jennifer Lavin: I think that there are a few really important reasons. One. I would say the overarching reason, in my opinion, [00:18:00] is that our culture does not value family care as strong social capital. Um, you know.
Caregiving. When we think about it and we think about not just how we provide care, but its effect on our lives, it's often, you know, financial repercussions that are negative. It takes us out of the workforce at times, whether that means for a few hours in a week or that means for years at a time. It also.
You know, can take you away from your social life. It can make you maybe a little bit of a less available parent if you're a parent. You know, you're stretching yourself across a lot of the different roles in your life. And caregiving is one that often the needs are immediate and they are tough. They're difficult.
They are hospital visits. They are, um, watching the declining health of somebody you love. And so I think all of that rolled together. It makes caregiving seem as if it's [00:19:00] taking you out of being a vital number of the community and. I think depending on your view of caregiving, it could be quite the opposite that you know, you learn a lot from caregiving.
You are absolutely participating in society. By being a caregiver, you are contributing something that is both financially valuable and emotionally invaluable. But you know, we don't view it that way. And so I think that leads people to stay silent about it because they don't wanna seem as, you know, somebody who's not fully involved in the other aspects of their life.
But also it can feel like you are quite an outlier, whether it's because you are dealing with it younger than expected, or maybe you are. You know, a full-time employee and you are a caregiver at home and you don't wanna admit that in the workforce because there can be, you know, negative stigma, there can be discrimination.
There are times people that lose their jobs because of caregiving, [00:20:00] and so I think people become very aware of the negative ways. Identifying vocally as a caregiver could impact their lives, and so feel reticent to do that. But at the same time, there are people who don't identify as caregivers because they just don't like the word.
They feel like it sounds too clinical for a family role. There are, um, people who don't di identify as caregivers because they don't have the knowledge, like I didn't of what a caregiver is. There are a myriad of reasons that we don't, but I would say that until we really. Are more vocal about who and what a caregiver is, the importance of that role, but also figure out a structure within our workplaces, within our government in which caregivers are not discriminated against, difficult decisions they have to make, are supported, you know, on the far end of that spectrum, even embraced, you know.
Then I think caregiving, the notion of it will change and [00:21:00] hopefully people will begin to identify more as one.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, all of that. Yes, to all of that. So you mentioned the, the workplace, so, mm-hmm. So let's talk a little bit about the workplace. How are employers knowingly or unknowingly failing to support caregivers?
And what is the cost to these organizations?
Jennifer Lavin: There are a few different ways because there are companies or corporations who don't offer. Any internal support to caregivers. And then on the other arm you have companies that do, but may not have a corporate culture of care awareness in, in which people feel supported and emboldened to utilize what's available to them in their companies.
So. For instance, because we don't have a national paid family leave policy federally, we have it right within certain states, but not, [00:22:00] not nearly enough, not even half. And you know, then oftentimes people are looking to their employers to provide some sort of paid family leave that includes, you know, medical leave.
For, so not just parental leave, but for caregiving. And we have to really differentiate that because parental leave is its own, you know, separate subset a lot of the time. So paid family leave for caregiving there is different than being offered leave for caregiving because a lot of people are offered unpaid leave, whether that's through their employer or through, it's through FMLA, the Family Medical Leave Act in the United States.
So. You know, if you have, let's say, unpaid leave, oftentimes there are people who feel like to provide the care at home that's needed, would be so exorbitantly expensive. It is less of a financial blow for them to leave the workforce and provide that care [00:23:00] themselves than it is for them to take unpaid leave and lose that income.
So. The cost of care outweighs the income they're receiving by staying employed. That's one way in which, you know, we are failing caregivers because it is basically forcing people out of the workforce because of that choice. Yes. There's also some companies that are too small to be covered by FMLA and so those workers don't have any sort of leave policy unless their employer has really, um, set one themselves and known to do that.
Then you also have some businesses, corporations in which they offer paid leave. But maybe the corporate culture is that if you take leave, you are now seen as not a dedicated worker, and that could hold you back from being promoted from benefits. Being [00:24:00] offered certain projects. You know, there was somebody in my group who I interviewed for the book who, um, cares for her spouse at home and her, her spouse has, um, chronic illness that presents very similarly to long COVID.
But he has not been formally diagnosed with that, and her employer allowed her to remain remote after the pandemic so that she could care for him at home while remaining full-time employed and doing her work remotely. She still delivers what she used to. She, you know, know was still as involved it is as an employee, but was hearing rumors that her employer didn't know what to do with her, so to speak.
And she started realizing that people who had been at the company for. Much, many fewer years than she had been, were being offered opportunities within the company that were not being offered to her. And she also realized she was making a lot less money and was not receiving the same bonuses that anybody else was, and that was because she had been [00:25:00] granted this.
You know, opportunity to work remotely, but she was still working full-time and on top of it, she was providing full-time care. Amazing. So she then left that company and found a company in which they really supported her working remotely and they didn't ding her, so to speak, for doing that. So there are just so many ways in which.
If it's a small company, they can support their employees who are caregivers. If they think they can't afford certain resources that maybe a larger corporation could offer. You can offer things like an employee support group for caregivers or helping them just access resources because that saves them time outside of the office.
There are small ways that. Are really meaningful to employees that small companies could take on. There are ways in which larger corporations who even offer benefits related to caregiving now could embolden the employees to actually utilize 'em. Like taking a top-down approach. If you [00:26:00] see your supervisor or the head of the company utilizing those benefits, you probably are more likely to take them as well.
So there are a lot of ways in which we are. Able to support caregivers and there are some ways in which we're failing those caregivers who are employed.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I also think, you know, things like letting somebody know that. Either you understand what they're going through or maybe you don't understand what they're going through, but you're there to support them.
I think I found in my own experience, many of the things that I found most challenging, which you touched on a little bit earlier, especially with my mother who has Alzheimer's diseases, things are stable. Until they're not. And when they're not, you know, all hell breaks loose. Right. Right. And it is, and you don't see it coming.
Right. And so it's, you know, you're, you're kind of in the middle of a, of a, of a budget meeting or a [00:27:00] presentation to a senior executive group, and your phone is blowing up with, you know, messages from, you know, the facility in which she lives, or the fact that she's at the hospital or. It's just not that cut and dry.
It's not a, Hey, I need three days off and everything will be better. Um, exactly. I know. It doesn't work that way. Um, it doesn't giving, yeah, go ahead.
Jennifer Lavin: Well, go ahead. It doesn't work that way, but, and there's also so little you can prepare for because you don't know what issue's gonna pop up. But, you know, I describe it in the book as saying you're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Yes. And you're researching Velcro and then the shoe burst into flames, you know? Um, yeah. That you can. Try to prepare all you want and that can be helpful, but it's nowhere near gonna cover every instance that's gonna come up. And they're gonna come so fast and furious. Yeah.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. And, and just when you think you have everything under control, it's like this veil of control.
And then yeah, all hell breaks loose. So one of the other things that you write about. It feels [00:28:00] so deeply personal to me and so many other people that I know in these caregiving roles and experiences. The concept of ambiguous loss, grieving what you thought life was gonna be, or this life that you thought that you, that you'd have and, and now you don't because you're in this caregiving role.
How does this emotional. Burden show up in the workplace. 'cause I think that that's often missed too. I know in my own experience it was things like, well your, your mom is an adult, can't she do these things for herself? And the answer is no. Right. You know, and so, uh, and, and also it kind of goes back to what we were talking before of like, you know, this reversal of roles.
Right? That comes with a huge emotional burden for me, knowing that I can never ask my mom for advice again knowing that. You know, I'll never be able to ask her what she thinks about something or what she did when she was my age or you know, all those things that perhaps I wished I would've asked her when I had the chance, but [00:29:00] now I don't.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lavin: Right. You touched on both aspects of ambiguous loss, which is ambiguous loss of. The person who is still physically present, but not emotionally available to you in the ways that they used to be and the ambiguous loss of the life you quote unquote thought you would have. Um, and I think that in the first instance of the person.
Um, you know, I interview various mental health experts in the book and it was framed in one way that I find really helpful by someone I interviewed who said that you are grappling with the person that you knew, who you knew them to be, who they are today, and who you are projecting they will be tomorrow as the disease escalates.
And, you know, that is a real form of grief. And often it's not identified as one. And so people feel really guilty feeling [00:30:00] grief that is unnamed over the loss of someone who, you know, you can feel lucky they're still here, they'll, they're still here. Let me focus on that. But it is a real loss that you don't have the mom to turn to anymore for advice or just to share certain things.
Um, and you know, you are. Projecting, well, what's, how's this gonna be even worse tomorrow? And maybe, you know, remembering how it was yesterday and. The advice that I've heard is to focus on who they are today and what positive things can you get from that relationship the same way you can't project what you know, emergencies are coming down the line, right?
And maybe don't dwell so much on what it's gonna be tomorrow and how it's gonna get worse. Focus on today and understand that it's different than it was yesterday. There's no going back to that. You know, that is real grief. And if you are constantly comparing today to yesterday, you are always gonna end [00:31:00] up disappointed and not recognizing what's right in front of you today.
So, you know, that is not easy work to do. It is like all grief. It takes time and you may never feel totally reconciled in it, but it's an exercise worth doing. And then when it comes to ambiguous loss of the life that you thought you have, you know, one therapist, Dr. Lisa Poway interview in the book said, you know, you can grieve the things that you had expected for your life, but that doesn't mean it would've worked out that way.
You know, you could have thought, oh, I, you know, if I had. More time to date, which is something that for younger caregivers, this comes up a lot. How do I start a romantic relationship? How I, how do I even try to date when I'm a caregiver? How do I explain that to somebody? How do I find the time? Um, you know, and she basically said, you know, you could have had this expectation that if you weren't a caregiver, you would've been married by 35, but it may not have worked out that way.
You know, [00:32:00] you're grieving an expectation that you had and not necessarily what would've been reality. So what's available to you today? You know, how can you foster the parts of your identity that make you feel whole, even while caregiving is so consuming? And, um, you know, you discussed in the workplace, you know, one caregiver I interviewed.
She had been at her place of employment for years with the idea that it was working towards an opportunity at one of her company's offices abroad, and when she was offered a position overseas, was the same day that her mom was diagnosed with criminal kidney failure. Hmm. And so she gave up that opportunity and said, I have to stay here.
And you know, when I talked to her about it, I talked to her over the course of months and she really had said, you know, I could have gone, I could have done it. [00:33:00] My mom was not, you know, necessarily escalating tomorrow. I could have left. And had a few months there and come back as needed. But I made the choice to be present, to be here and she really reframed it as her decision.
And you can't always do that. You know, there are some things that are out of your control, like being passed up for a promotion or bonuses, as I mentioned, but you know, figuring out, okay, if I'm not. Getting what I feel like I need in this moment or what I expected. Are there ways in which I can make changes to facilitate that?
Um, because you shouldn't entirely. Give up on yourself. Either you shouldn't give up on yourself, period. Um, during all of this, and, and the person that you're caring for wouldn't want you to do that either. No, no. Yeah. When you're a caregiver, people will question your decisions all the time. Like you give them an that person [00:34:00] Absolutely.
To, um, you know, and there are people that do give up their careers to provide full-time care. There are people who cut back hours, whatever that looks like. And, you know, I know that for me and my family. That wasn't even a consideration. I didn't consider it. I don't think my dad ever did, you know, it was just not how we view our lives and what he would've wanted for me, that level of sacrifice.
So, you know, all of this is so personal, but how can you maintain what feels right to you and how can you continue to build?
Jen Fisher: Yeah, and, and I mean, I think you've said it before and you know, I mean, in some ways the, for me, the. I've gotten much better at the, at the guilt of, but there is always, you know, especially, and, and you know this with your dad, you know, the, these diseases where there is no chance of somebody getting better, you know, something that is degenerative, you know, or, [00:35:00] or, you know, life ending, um.
The acceptance of, um, you know, for me it was the guilt of like, oh, well maybe, maybe if I had done more, or maybe I could do more and she'd be better, or she'd get better or she wouldn't progress as quickly. Um, you know, playing that game with yourself is, is not helpful ever.
Jennifer Lavin: No.
Jen Fisher: But
Jennifer Lavin: it's there, is there and it's human.
Absolutely. And I have to tell you, I mean, I. You know, interviewed a lot of people in this book, and I also through Caregiver Collective. And you know, there's a few thousand people in that group. And what I really learned that was that whenever I spoke to a caregiver, didn't matter what aspect of care we were talking about, the one word that always came up was guilt.
Oh. People found, were able to figure out a way to feel guilty about anything, anything, anything. And, um. You know, and, and it's, even when you make the decision to not feel guilty, then making that decision [00:36:00] makes you feel guilty. You know, it's like, yeah, there's, it's an unending cycle, which is why I wrote an entire chapter on guilt.
Yeah. And feeling guilty. 'cause like you said, we are all human and it's natural, but it's, you know, what is actually. Rooted in reality that often has a different answer than the way that we feel about it.
Jen Fisher: For managers and leaders who are listening to this and maybe haven't yet gone through this experience of caregiving themselves, are there signs that someone on their team.
Might be struggling with caregiving. Is there something that we can look out for, even if the person hasn't been vocal about it, hasn't come forward about it? What can leaders do?
Jennifer Lavin: I would say that there are ways in which caregivers behave at work that could be signs. It's where it's worth addressing what's going on.
Things like showing up to [00:37:00] work late. Leaving early, leaving suddenly in the middle of the day, urgent phone calls, you know, this type of behavior. Sure, it could be for a lot of reasons, but when I talk to caregivers about the ways in which they're impacted at work, often, what they were getting in trouble for, frankly, which is showing up late missed days, taking time off.
It was a direct result of caregiving and they couldn't control it. And you know, as. You touched on kind of is that they were not telling their supervisors that they were caregivers because of steer. And so I think if you are recognizing somebody's stress level that indicates they could be burnt out for something that is not necessarily related to the office, it's worth addressing.
You know what the reason for that is? What I really believe that companies can do, supervisors in particular [00:38:00] is create a culture of care awareness for themselves and for other employees. So knowing who may have family caregiving going on within their homes or within their families, and then. Identifying ways that they can support those caregivers to help them, you know, remain employed to help them, you know, not have to miss days if it's not necessary.
Or, you know, support them working remotely if that can help them manage everything, even if it's just for a short stint. So knowing who is a caregiver, and then on top of that. Educating people on the benefits available to them. So there are times that, you know, the benefits are there, but the employees don't know about them.
Um, maybe it was in an onboarding package when they first started. Um, maybe it was something they didn't pay attention to. Maybe it's something that they never see being utilized around them. So. They either don't know about it or don't think to utilize them [00:39:00] because they think they could get in trouble and be seen is not dedicated if they utilize these things.
So showing that one, whatever is available is there and educating people on it, but also stressing. That it is okay if you need and encouraged to utilize these benefits offered if it's necessary. And as I mentioned before, that's often in taking a top down approach. So if there's somebody in a higher position, you know who is offering these things but not doing it themselves.
That'll be noted by the people under them and, you know, hinder people from using these benefits. So really creating that culture in which it emboldens people to utilize the benefits so that they can remain interactive and employed in the company.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I guess one final question, the, the flip side of that, if I am that employee and I have not told anyone about it and I'm struggling.[00:40:00]
What do I do?
Jennifer Lavin: There are two things. One, are there other colleagues of yours who you know are caregivers or who you suspect might be? Because if you need to address this with higher ups and you know, seek support. It could be, you know, beneficial for you and just more comfortable to seek that support in numbers, you know, are, is there a group of you that can get together, figure out what would help and approach your employer with that?
Two, it, you know, comes in being honest with your employer as you feel safe. Um, you know, what are you comfortable sharing and what do you need? Is it that there are times that you have to be bedside and you may not always see it coming? Is remote work available for you on those days? Stressing that you don't want to be absent, but there are things outside of the office at times that you know.
Take precedent and [00:41:00] that responsibility falls on you. So I would say, you know, looking at what would help you and approaching your employer with that, there are some organizations that can help you find the language for that if you need assistance and even can help you, you know, with ways that other people have approached their employers and what has helped and what has worked.
And you know, if you learn that from some of these organizations that can help you find the language and be prepared when you go to speak to somebody about, you know, what has worked in other companies that may be able to easily apply to where you're working.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll add one more.
Everyone should read your book Generation Care, so Jennifer's. Thank you so much for your time, for, for sharing your story, for putting this work out in the world and, and shining the light on it that is so needed. Um, and there's just so much wisdom here. So thank
Jennifer Lavin: you. Well, thank you so much for, you know, helping to amplify this conversation because [00:42:00] that's exactly what's needed right now.
Absolutely.
Jen Fisher: I'm so grateful Jennifer could be with us today to shed light on this invisible crisis affecting millions of working Americans, including me. Her insights remind us that supporting caregivers isn't just the right thing to do. It's essential for creating truly inclusive and sustainable workplaces, and to anyone listening who might be going through something similar, you're not alone.
Your workplace should be supporting you through this journey. Thank you to our producer and our listeners. You can find the Work Well podcast by visiting various podcast catchers using the key word work Well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes.
If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share. Reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile [00:43:00] is under the name Jen Fisher. We're always open to recommendations and feedback and of course if you like what you hear, please share post and like this podcast.
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Thank you and be well.