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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, conversations about leadership, culture, staff wellbeing, and how we create schools where people can truly thrive. I'm your horse, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Andrew Marsh. Andrew retired from teaching in 2024 after spending 46 years in classrooms, first as pupil, then as university student, a class teacher, and finally as a [00:00:25] school leader.
[00:00:25] He wanted a new challenge as a highly introverted person, and Andrew always felt different from his peers and often less than his personality type. Combined with his priorities and beliefs led into approach things a bit differently from others. His approach led to sustained success, but Andrew believes the education system fails to support introverted school leaders.
[00:00:47] He has mainly worked in small primary [00:00:50] schools leading his own and serving as acting head teacher in crisis schools for his LEA in the next phase of his career. Through his book and direct work with Schools, Andrew aims to improve outcomes for introverted staff and pupils in the UK and beyond. It was lovely to chat to Andrew in a format that was by his own admission, a little bit out of his comfort zone.
[00:01:12] We discussed his new book, quiet [00:01:15] Leadership, the Power of Introversion in Schools, focusing on the positive role that introverted leaders can play and why we need to do more to champion both staff and children who are introverts, as well as talking about Alan Partridge, the importance of nostalgia and how he hopes to start a quiet revolution.
[00:01:40] I'm Andrew, welcome. How are you?
[00:01:43] Andrew: Good, thank you. Yes, we're looking forward to having a good chat.
[00:01:46] Julie: Lovely. Now, I know this is quite a big deal. This is kind of your first podcast and and we really appreciate you taking the time to join us, um, to talk about your new book, um, and to talk about all things introversion.
[00:02:00] But I do hope you haven't been moving the furniture around too much in the background. [00:02:05]
[00:02:05] Andrew: I, I, I must admit I did a little bit of that.
[00:02:09] Julie: I did read your post and, um,
[00:02:11] Andrew: I guess
[00:02:11] Julie: Yeah, yeah. And laughed at the fact that, uh, you know, we, we kind of, we've suddenly have to become interior designers and stylists.
[00:02:20] Andrew: I wasn't going to, but I seem to think most people probably do.
[00:02:23] So I thought, why not?
[00:02:25] Julie: Love that. Love that. So Andrew, you are the author of Quiet Leadership, [00:02:30] the Power of Introversion in Schools, and I want to come back to the book and really shortly, but before we get into the conversation, can you just give me a little kind of potted history of your career in education?
[00:02:45] Andrew: Sure. Um, I am early as trained. I did a four year B ed back in the nineties when that was the primary way into teaching. Worked in [00:02:55] first schools, uh, for the first 10 years. Um, and then I got, uh, deputy head post in an infant school. Um, within about six weeks of my deputy head post starting, the current head teacher took, uh, sudden early retirement on health rounds.
[00:03:10] So I ended up taking on the school, and then a few weeks later we had the Offstead call. So it was a baptism of fire. Um, I survived that. Then, [00:03:20] um, a few years later, I, sorry, carried on developing my de deputy role. A few years later, they, um, appointed another head who I worked really well with. Um, by that point, I was, I was growing into my role and the local authority asked me to go and take on a very small school, um, as a executive head for part of the week.
[00:03:40] So I worked, uh, it was a 45, 46 capacity school, so [00:03:45] very small. So I, I started that role. Um. Whilst carrying on my deputy role. Then my head teacher at my permanent school, she was injured at work, so she was off for a year rehabbing. So I ended up running the two schools. I ended up having to, um, and we had it offstead in the other school during that year.
[00:04:04] So I was, um, yeah, it was, it was quite a start. Then when, when everything settled down [00:04:10] again, I, I realised I had a taste for it and I wanted to take on a permanent role. So I, uh, applied for a few, found a good fit. Um, ended up, um, doing nearly 13 years, uh, at my school. And, uh, then at 50, uh, decided to try something new.
[00:04:28] Julie: Love that. So, quite an accidental kind of leadership journey really in, in [00:04:35] many respects. Um, which kind of maybes ties into some of you those kind of questions around the natural fit around introversion and leadership. Um, so yeah, I think we'll come back to some of that, but can, before we kind of get into talking about the book and kind of what it means to be an introvert working in education and teaching and, and [00:05:00] particularly in leadership, can you just tell me what, what do we mean when we talk about introversion?
[00:05:05] Andrew: Sure. Um, it's not being shy. Um, it's very specific. It's about having, um, your internal battery is what drives you rather than your surroundings driving you. So an, uh, an introvert doesn't need to be around. Lots of people quite happy being on their own, um, does their best thinking alone can [00:05:25] find, um, social situations tiring.
[00:05:27] So it's not an anxiety thing, it's a physical tiredness. And, um, we talk less than we listen. So we, um, we're big good listeners. Um, not always the best talkers. Um, and we, uh, are happy for others to be in the spotlight other than ourselves. So it's, uh, it's, it, it's often perceived as shyness, [00:05:50] but it's, it's, it's quite different.
[00:05:52] Julie: Yeah. 'cause there's a couple of things said there wasn't a shyness and anxiety. I imagine that it's, uh, kind of, there's a misperception around that. So it's, is it, am I right saying that it was like a, a, a Ian, Ian, he's the psychologist in the room, suddenly he doesn't know how to, um, pronounce Carl Young.
[00:06:10] Um, but that's kind of where some of that thought comes from, isn't it?
[00:06:14] Andrew: [00:06:15] Definitely, yes. Yeah. That's where it sort of, the, the, the thinking was formalised back Yeah. Back, back in his time.
[00:06:21] Julie: Yeah. Did you always recognise you were an introvert Andrew?
[00:06:25] Andrew: Um, no, I didn't. Um, I knew I was quiet, um, and I always felt that other people had, it sort had all sorted out and I was the only one who didn't.
[00:06:37] Um, I, I think I thought for [00:06:40] a while I was probably shy until I kind of in investigated it more, um. But yeah, definitely always been, always been quiet. But when you're a child being quiet, that that's perceived very, very much your shy, isn't it?
[00:06:55] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, and I, I wanna ask about children in a, in a little while and what we can do better around that, but when I think of [00:07:05] teaching and, and particularly school leadership, the profession is associated with people.
[00:07:10] Kind of those social sort of, um, situations, communication, um, a public presence. Um, so kind of as your kind of career progressed, obviously you were drawn into education, did you feel like you had to mask, did you feel like you had to be somebody else [00:07:30] or were you always quite comfortable in that inter virgin?
[00:07:34] Andrew: Um, early on in my career, before I, um, moved up into the sort of leadership roles, I was quite comfortable, uh, in that role and thought maybe I wouldn't go any further. But I think it was probably the MPQH that did it, uh, that helped me the most. We had some coaching as part of the, the course and it really helped me think about myself and [00:07:55] actually if I wanted to be a leader, if I wanted to succeed as a leader, I had to be authentic.
[00:08:01] And that trying to be something I wasn't would just lead to failure. So I think I, I think it was my MPQH coaching sessions that really, um, kind of fixed my mindset that I could do this. I would be different, but I, but I would actually bring a lot to the job.
[00:08:17] Julie: So if we come to the book, then there's [00:08:20] kind of lots of kind of questions I want to ask you, uh, about the book.
[00:08:23] Um, but just on that, that last question around sort of masking, there's a brilliant STA story. It's quite early in the book that you kind of recount about getting your leadership role. Uh, and I think it said something much to the surprise of the other candidates.
[00:08:41] Andrew: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:42] Julie: I wonder, can you just recount, so you've [00:08:45] got that kind of job and maybe didn't expect to, but also then there's a second part to that story as well, isn't there?
[00:08:50] I wonder, are you happy to kind of retell that?
[00:08:53] Andrew: Yeah, that was the, the, when they thought they'd made a mistake in hiring me, um. Yeah. I mean that's, that's been a thread throughout my career, to be honest. And that's part of what, what inspired me to write the book is actually the misunderstanding that people have about people like me, um, [00:09:10] who think that we're too quiet and we don't talk enough, and we're not sort of that dynamic leadership role.
[00:09:17] I mean, in the interview, the, the candidate that the other person thought had got the role was very smart suit, very confident, you know, smart Bag had that sort of manner about them. And I've never been that sort of person. Um, it took me a little while to find my school, uh, as a result, but that's another thing I talk about with [00:09:35] new heads and perspective heads is how important it is to find the right school for you.
[00:09:38] So, um, yeah, it's, it's been a thread throughout my career. I've had lots of times where people have either underestimated me or, um, judged me for my style. And that's the, the sort of flip side of the book is I want people to understand. So it's not, it's not just a book for introverts, it's a book for people who don't understand introverts who want to understand [00:10:00] introverts better.
[00:10:00] Julie: Yeah. And that was, that was my next question really. Like, who, who is it for? Who did you write this book for?
[00:10:06] Andrew: Well, originally it was, it was for people like me because I've seen, uh, people, I mean, obviously everybody knows that the, the crisis of leadership in schools, the, the retention crisis that's going on, people leaving the role.
[00:10:18] Um, I wanted to write something that would not just help people stay in the role, but I, it [00:10:25] became something to try and change the culture. I mean, that might be a bit bit grand, but I thought that that's, that's kind of what I want is people, people like me, not just to have to survive in schools, but to thrive in schools.
[00:10:37] Um, so it's written initially from the perspective of how to be a successful introverted leader, but also the bringing in the, the other side of it, how schools can be more supportive to [00:10:50] introverted, uh, members of staff, children. Um, look at the whole, the whole recruitment process and Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think maybe changing the cultures a bit, bit much, but you never know.
[00:11:01] You've gotta aim high, haven't you?
[00:11:02] Julie: I love it, Andrew. I love it. I love that That's kind of your aspiration and that's how it read the book Felt like it was a book for anybody trying to understand skill cultures and the kind of different, [00:11:15] um, characters, you know, within them. Can I just go back just a second when that, um, I, I can't remember whether it was a governor or or somebody challenged you about whether they'd made a mistake.
[00:11:27] What, what did that feel like? What,
[00:11:30] Andrew: oh, it was awful. Um, and one of the most interesting parts of what's happened since I've read the book is I've been really honest in the book. Um, [00:11:40] but I, these are things I never told my parents. And the thing is, my parents are now reading all these things for the first time.
[00:11:45] The stuff about me as an introverted child and the stuff that's happened to me and my dad in particular who's really sensitive, um, it's like, why didn't you tell us all this? It's, yeah, it's character building, but it is, it's, yeah, it's hard to deal with at the time. I think if it happened to me now, I'd be more resilient, but we're talking nearly 20 years ago now.
[00:12:03] Yeah. So I was, I was, [00:12:05] uh, quite taken aback.
[00:12:06] Julie: Yeah. And that's where kind of this book and, and your story and, and kind of, um, amplifying the voices of introverts kind of could be a really kind of, um, supportive to somebody who, who is in that role, as you say. Because when I read that, my heart just went, ah, that's just awful.
[00:12:28] Um, you know, that you'd [00:12:30] got the job and, and off you went and, and then to kind of be questioned. So to kind of bounce back and tell that story and show your kind of trajectory, um, I think is, you know, it's, it's just fantastic.
[00:12:42] Andrew: One of the advantages of being an introvert, which perhaps helped me in that situation and has helped me in other situations since then is that you don't need the approval of people you don't know really [00:12:55] well.
[00:12:55] So you rely on a, you only really value a close group of people and you can cope with being, uh, unpopular. So being unpopular doesn't bother me as much as it might bother a more extroverted person who, who needs that connection with people. So in some ways that I've, I've reflected over time on that and actually, uh, being an introvert does have its, um, weird advantages sometimes.
[00:13:19] Julie: And you talk about that [00:13:20] in the book, Tony. You talk about you, you, I think it's a full chapter and it, it's a compelling case as to why introverts can make exceptional head teachers and, and leaders. Um, so you've mentioned some of those qualities already. Um, talk us through some of those things. So I think the first one was being good at active listening yet and not thinking that you have all the answers.
[00:13:43] And one that I liked [00:13:45] that your dreamers, which I think it's just lovely. Um, I'm not sure whether you want to talk to any of those points that, that you cover in that chapter.
[00:13:53] Andrew: Yeah, I mean the, the, um, the one about ideas coming at really interesting times and really creative ideas come at really interesting times.
[00:14:01] Um, I still do, I still get 'em in the shower. Um, I have to get out quick and write them down quickly. Um, it might be for a blog piece now, so it's not quite as, not quite [00:14:10] as important as when I was ahead, but it, but, uh, yeah, ideas coming at, at, at weird times and actually thinking outside the box is a real, um, advantage.
[00:14:18] 'cause your, your brain is constantly firing. Um, it's very hard to switch off definitely. But, uh, yeah, not being, uh, not being afraid to let other people take a lead role, which I mean is, is an amazing. Advantage or had it proved to me to be an amazing advantage [00:14:35] when it came to team building. Because you genuinely don't want yourself to be.
[00:14:40] Not only do you not want yourself to be at the front you, you don't think you've got the best answers. You are, you are open to other answers, and that's something that my experience, having worked with other leaders is not always been the case. I've worked with micromanagers. Yeah, that's definitely not what, what I'm like and what introverts are like.
[00:14:58] Julie: Yeah. And I suppose that maybe [00:15:00] creates a bit more of a kind of flattened hierarchy and allows people Yeah. Which as we know in terms of culture building is a really healthy culture.
[00:15:10] Andrew: Yeah. We really, um, as a team, it's, we were, we created this, we're all in it together type vibe. So it's, it was us against, 'cause I mean, it, teaching just gets harder and harder year on year, doesn't it?
[00:15:20] But, uh, we really were, we were, we were very strong as a team [00:15:25] as a result of that style.
[00:15:26] Julie: Yeah. And the other things that you talk about, um, that you're happy being on your own, um, and have kind of more of a need to be organised and therefore love a timetable.
[00:15:36] Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. I was, uh, I was planning for, I, I tested more of my equipment this morning before the podcast just to make sure everything was still working.
[00:15:44] And yeah, it's, I mean, timetable's obviously in schools, um, generally, I mean, there's [00:15:50] always gonna be exceptions, but, but generally, yeah, introverts like to be organised. Chaos is, is is not something we sit with naturally or happily. It becomes a little overwhelming, a little bit of like a sensory overload for us.
[00:16:01] So, um, it's nice to feel that everything's sorted.
[00:16:04] Julie: Yeah. I interviewed Patrick Cosier his, for his book Calm Leadership, and it feels like the two dovetail so much that calm leadership. But what, what I [00:16:15] feel that when I read this book and, and now I've met you, um, is that steadiness as well, that, you know, no need for extra words, no need for, you know, um, loud voices and just a real steady kind of person at the helm, which feels
[00:16:33] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:16:34] Julie: Safe.
[00:16:35] Andrew: Yeah. And, and that's what you do. That was my job, was to, to filter out all the, all the stuff that would stress [00:16:40] out the teachers to take, to give them, uh, an environment that's conducive to them being the most productive and, and do things to the best of their ability by, uh, but yeah, filtering it all out for them.
[00:16:51] I think that's, yeah, that's hugely important because yeah, I mean, things can come in at the map. You can get an email at five to nine and the wrong reaction, everyone melts down. Uh, it's, it's not, it's not a, a positive way to do [00:17:05] things.
[00:17:05] Julie: Yeah. And that's where that slow and steady becomes such an advantage, doesn't it?
[00:17:10] Um, there's another story that you recount in the book and you describe standing on the playground. I think it might have been in your first day in headship or, or the start of a term and suddenly you're expected to like address the crowd. Yeah,
[00:17:23] Andrew: yeah. That was, yeah. Village schools. Um, I did, that was when I got my, my substantive headship.
[00:17:29] [00:17:30] Um, yes. Villages. I didn't live in the village, so I was an outsider, which helped a lot. 'cause the cul the village culture is an interesting one. But, uh, yeah, the previous incumbent was very much, uh, address the crowd at the start of every day. Very, very visual, very outgoing. But as I later found out, not very authentic.
[00:17:48] And actually the staff weren't in a great shape, in great shape when I got there. And so we, we rebuilt, um, [00:17:55] in a different, different way. Better foundations. Definitely.
[00:17:58] Julie: Just tell me about that then. Well, people need to go buy your book so they can read about it, but there you are stood in the playground.
[00:18:04] Everyone's expecting you to speak.
[00:18:07] Andrew: Yeah, but I didn't know this until the bell went. So the, the, so I was there just to sort of say hi and I was milling around on the playground, talking to the families, mainly talking to the children. 'cause I was always, for me it was the, the children. [00:18:20] Um, that, that's why I was there.
[00:18:21] Um, and the bell went and then the deputy came up and said, oh, by the way, uh, the head would always, um, talk to the parents at the start of every day. Do you want to do that? And that was after the Bella had gone. So yeah, it was, it didn't go down brilliantly at the time. So I've often thought, should I have done it or should I have not done it?
[00:18:39] But I thought, actually, no, I can't be anything but myself. And I probably would've made a hash of it if I tried to [00:18:45] say something and ended up looking worse by doing that. So, so you
[00:18:49] Julie: just disappeared back into the building
[00:18:51] Andrew: pretty much. Yeah. I, I, you know, yeah, pretty much.
[00:18:54] Julie: I love that you, you recount, isn't it an Alan Partridge?
[00:18:58] Andrew: Oh, yeah. Well, that's, that's the, the, um, as an introvert, there is a danger. You have to be aware of, uh, about being conflict averse, um, because you want to find [00:19:10] solutions to problems. Um, you are a, you are a problem solver, and I know that can sometimes be frustrating for people that, um, yeah, sometimes you've just gotta face the music, I guess.
[00:19:21] Julie: Okay. So I can see lots of positives and the book really leans into them. Um, and as I say, mes gives people permission, um, who, um, are introverts and also kind of [00:19:35] really creates a really kind of interesting perspective on seeing people for who they are and recognising the strengths that they bring. But there's also a chapter that you include on why Intervi words might not make great leaders, which I thought was quite a brave chapter to write, really.
[00:19:54] Um, but I suppose what you're recognising is the flip side, isn't it? Can you, can you talk to me about some of [00:20:00] those reasons that you see?
[00:20:02] Andrew: Well, as I said, conflict averse can be a, can be a problem, uh, because we live in a confrontational society nowadays. So you've gotta develop strategies for dealing with those.
[00:20:12] It's that interpretation of strength. And some people associate quietness with weakness. Once you feel that kind of reaction from people, you, it's, it's quite, you have to be very brave to try and [00:20:25] overcome it. So that can be, that can be a real problem. You've got to be aware of, um, your team, how your team, that your team understands you.
[00:20:34] I think if you, if your team don't understand your personality type, if they, if they understand they can, they can work with you and you can, you can make it work. But if, if you have a staff who. Don't get you. That can be a real problem.
[00:20:48] Julie: So I think some of the other [00:20:50] ones that you point out aren't inspirational or, or might not be inspirational.
[00:20:54] Andrew: Well, like you said, it's that slow and steady, um, can create that and people make that association. Um, you're not, you don't come across as dynamic even though what you say, you know, very, I'm, I, I'm a creative person. I come up with some really strange, wacky ways of doing things, but I think people, people make [00:21:15] judgements based on how you appear and assume that you lack charisma, that you lack the ability to change things.
[00:21:22] Um, yeah, that's, that, that can happen. Definitely.
[00:21:25] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And there was a couple of other things in there, wasn't there, around, maybe it's not liking to socialise that, not great at maintaining eye contact. Are there things that you've had to work a little bit harder on?
[00:21:36] Andrew: Eye contact I can't do anything about.
[00:21:38] I tried. [00:21:40] It's, it's, it's just hardwired in, I, I think I mentioned there's a, there's a conversation 'cause one of my teachers was, was, um, was introverted and we would have really good, we got on really well, had a good, good relationship, but we would have con deep conversations with each other without, and we were both looking in completely opposite directions.
[00:21:56] It was, it was very, um, bizarre to the people from the outside. But yeah, the i, the social thing is an interesting one because I initially thought [00:22:05] that as a leader I should be a available and be social. And, but actually I soon realised that that's not always the case. It's actually quite good to give your staff or your team a chance to be together without you.
[00:22:21] So actually, it's not necessarily a bad thing that you don't want to socialise as much or don't feel the need to socialise as much, but, um, you, you know, it, it can come [00:22:30] across as standoffish, I guess.
[00:22:31] Julie: I suppose though, that goes back to a couple of things you said. Yes. It can come across as standoffish. You talk there about like talking with a colleague who also, um, found it difficult to make eye contact.
[00:22:43] Well you both understood that and therefore we're absolutely fine with that. So I suppose it is also about knowing that and understanding those different personality types, isn't it? [00:22:55] Do you think there is a role for personality testing for those kind of frameworks within school and, and within kind of staff in particular?
[00:23:05] Andrew: I haven't made my mind up completely yet. One thing I, I didn't say that I, I, I worked on body language. That was something that I was able to, I couldn't do the eye contact, but I, but I could do the body language and I found people responded well to positive body language even if I wasn't actually looking at [00:23:20] them.
[00:23:20] So I think that was important to acknowledge. Um, I think it's important if you're an introverted leader to understand the personalities of your team. I am not a hundred percent sure yet how I feel about the whole personality test because I mean, in introversion there's different thoughts. There's con you can have contrasting personalities, you can have types that clash.
[00:23:40] I, yeah, I haven't quite made my mind up about that one. I, I think it's, it's more about, for [00:23:45] me, it's more about the way the personality type of the leader becomes the guiding force for the team. For me, I mean, I always say that when you go into a school, if the head teacher's doing their job. The personality of the head should be reflected in the school or will be reflected in the school.
[00:24:03] So if you, if you go into a school with a very sporty, outgoing head, you'll see lots of, you'll see those, that kind, those kind of [00:24:10] relationships. So for me, it was about my personality, my quiet, thoughtful, introverted children, first personality being reflected across the school and the staff understanding my personality type.
[00:24:22] I haven't, yeah, that's, it's an ongoing process for me what I want. Think about that.
[00:24:26] Julie: Yeah. It is interesting, isn't it? Um, and I suppose it also requires people to be very self-aware, which they're not [00:24:35] always
[00:24:36] Andrew: No, that's true. That's true.
[00:24:38] Julie: And so I suppose it does start with the leader, doesn't it? The leader needs to be self-aware and the leader needs to be able to articulate, you know, their modus operandi.
[00:24:51] And so people recognise that not communicating with your door short is not standoffish, and it's not unavailability, it's thinking [00:25:00] time or it's focus time. So I suppose it's about that, isn't it? Um, but yeah. And, and maybe it's less about personality testing, more about, um, or profiling, maybe it's more about sort of strengths leading with mm-hmm.
[00:25:14] Awareness of strengths.
[00:25:16] Andrew: Yes. Yes. I think so.
[00:25:18] Julie: Yeah. And that is rather than kind of that personality, um, but definitely interesting and comes back to what you were saying, this is [00:25:25] about recognising difference, acceptance, and awareness, and that's where that culture of kind of belonging.
[00:25:33] Andrew: Absolutely. And, and that was one of the hardest things to get across to some of the staff was my belief is you can only want the best version of a person to be there.
[00:25:45] You can't. Create maybe the version you in an ideal world that you want [00:25:50] and you have to be accepting of that person and not condemn them for the bits that you find maybe aren't quite right, but actually focus on the positives. Whereas not every person can do that. I find, or some people find it harder than others to do that.
[00:26:05] Julie: I think that's where that kind of training, I'm thinking about like the kind of insights training and the economy training. You know, I dunno whether you've ever explored any of that where you're kind of red, [00:26:15] yellow, blue, green.
[00:26:16] Andrew: Yeah. A little. Yeah.
[00:26:17] Julie: Yeah. One of the most powerful things I ever did was about 20 years ago it was on some leadership training where we identified our colours, mine's yellow, and um, we had to find somebody with a different colour.
[00:26:31] Then we had, we are given a roleplay scenario and I was with somebody who is blue. And blue is much more that kind of considered [00:26:40] analytical, you know, quiet problem solving. And yellow is much more kind of flighty, has ideas, throws them at people. And I will never ever forget the impact that, so that person had to be extra blue and I had to be extra yellow.
[00:26:58] Okay. And I found myself like getting frustrated and wanting to jump in and [00:27:05] they kind of, we were, honestly, it was brilliant 'cause we were then able to have a good discussion from their perspective what it felt like and, and from my perspective. So yeah, I think, you know, things like that, which again, focus in on let's find a way we turn up the volume on those strengths and aspects of our character.
[00:27:22] Sorry, that just all came back to me then, but I remember that's vividly.
[00:27:26] Andrew: I, I had a, um, a chair of governors who [00:27:30] got frustrated with the school environment and I always said that schools are 50% a business and 50% a living, breathing, breathing organism. And that's, that's what makes them unique, I think.
[00:27:41] Julie: Yes.
[00:27:41] Yeah, absolutely. So one of the themes that really resonated with me, given like the work that we do here, it's still human, was, um, around wellbeing. And you talked about kind of introversion, if we're thinking of [00:27:55] it a little bit like a battery and that sort of social battery and that energy. So can we talk a little bit about that decompression, that recharging batteries?
[00:28:04] What does that mean? What does that look like to you personally? You might wanna touch on the seven, seven ideas for intra being. Talk to me about wellbeing and decompression.
[00:28:15] Andrew: Yeah, I mean, this is one of the parts of the book that was the most vital for me as an [00:28:20] introvert, but I think this is equally as vital for everybody.
[00:28:22] In a nutshell, it, for me, it was about finding things that gave me the opportunity to, to forget I was a teacher or forget I was a head teacher. That was kind of the nutshell of it. But there were the five, uh, ways to Wellbeing came in a few years back and I, I, while there absolutely laudable and I can't argue with any of them, I, I felt they were a little impractical for [00:28:45] a, for me and potentially for other people, for such a, a, a full on tiring job.
[00:28:51] So I, I kind of thought about what I did as a person and how I, how I recharged. I, I had to be really careful with my time. I had to have switch off time. I wasn't one of those heads that was, uh, would wear my 60 hours a week as a badge of honour. I think for me it was about working smart. It was about [00:29:10] switching off in the evenings.
[00:29:11] Um, really challenging to do, probably more so in, in teaching than other jobs because it's weird. You become a teacher, don't you? That's the thing. Whereas another, not every job you would call yourself that job, but you, you, yeah. It becomes, it becomes you. It defines you. So I, yeah, I've, I've come up with my seven ways and really, um, crystallised those particular, one of my favourites [00:29:35] is, um, broadening your horizons.
[00:29:36] Um, and that was something that I, I did some research on. I, I used to go and stand out in the field. I used to like to go out and stand out in space. I mean, uh, it came to me from when I did some looking into, you know, when you walk into a room and you forget what you were going to do when you go through the door?
[00:29:53] Julie: Always.
[00:29:53] Andrew: Yeah. That's, that's apparently to do with your prehistoric brain. So it's threat detection. So when you walk into [00:30:00] another room, you are, your brain just goes, right, so what's going on in this room? Is there any, are there any threats here? And you then forget the reason why you walked into the room.
[00:30:08] So I was looking at that in terms of when I go out for a walk, go out for some space, and I thought, there's gotta be some science behind that. And I found that it is, it's a similar kind of feeling. It's that your, your brain is able to say, I can see all around me for a good distance. There's no threats. I can just [00:30:25] relax.
[00:30:25] Um, it, so I, I do that all the time. I, I'm lucky. I, I posted a video this week where I walk, I on the beach. So I go and stand out in the middle of the beach. 'cause where I live is, is away from the touristy part town. And I can go and stand in huge space and just look around and it, it does, does the job.
[00:30:43] It's, uh, it's achievable for me. And it was always, it was achievable when I was ahead. Um, it needed to be [00:30:50] something that I could do. Going to the gym was never gonna be an option.
[00:30:53] Julie: And Andrew Huberman talks about that, doesn't he? And he talks about, um, the panoramic visual field. And, and of course, as you say, when we go into threat detect mode, our vision goes here, which ramps up the, the stress.
[00:31:10] Um, and therefore that makes perfect sense that the memory then kind of [00:31:15] shuts down. And, and just for anybody listening who is thinking they don't live in somewhere as beautiful as you do, 'cause you overlook the sea and you're literally sat in a room here where he can see the sea. But, but he talks even about as simply as looking up from your computer, you monitor your phone and just letting your gears soften and let opening up that field of vision, um, can be, can be really, really helpful.
[00:31:38] Do you think then, [00:31:40] um, and I don't wanna kind of get too sidetracked, do you think that stress levels then that threat to detection are maybe is higher in somebody who's introverted?
[00:31:50] Andrew: Yeah, I would say so. Uh, we are meant to be more, um, more, more aware of our, of our surroundings. We're always taking in information, um, rather than giving out information about ourselves.
[00:32:02] So yes, I think so. Um, I think [00:32:05] there's an element where it probably, it affects all of us, but I think for, for, for more introverted people, it's even more vital. You can do things that, that help you. And I just wish those heads that are starting their career now are able to keep doing what they used to do before they got their jobs.
[00:32:20] Julie: Yeah. Um, another, and as you said that, like you cover another six of those in the book, does football play a role at all? I'm feeling like, [00:32:30] as I read, went through, there was a lot of football managers referred to.
[00:32:33] Andrew: Um, no, that was, that was just a, uh, sport in general. I'm, I'm, I'm interested in, um, I'm a cricket fan rather than a football fan.
[00:32:40] Um, but I, I like to take lessons from outside of education. I like to find things that maybe people haven't thought of or things that are, the whole, the whole aim of the book was to write something that wasn't a [00:32:55] really dense essay that people would have to plug their way through and. I wanted to write a conversational easy 'cause I know heads haven't got much time, so I wanted to write something that that wouldn't take too long to read and would actually have meaningful examples that people could relate to.
[00:33:11] So yeah, there's, there's a, there's a fair few, um, slightly it's unusual references in there, I think, and
[00:33:18] Julie: including Alan Partridge.
[00:33:19] Andrew: Yeah. [00:33:20]
[00:33:20] Julie: There's some other chapters and, and we haven't got time to talk about all of them, but you talk about things around how we can maybe design sort of CPD and when we are thinking about the interview process.
[00:33:31] I think particularly the interview process to me feels like we could do better.
[00:33:36] Andrew: Yeah, definitely. Um, it was always a battle for me, uh, because obviously you are, even though it's your school, you're part of a panel when you're interviewing and [00:33:45] other people on the panel tended to be swayed by the more confident, uh, outgoing, stronger characters, more obvious characters.
[00:33:54] Whereas I would always be looking for something slightly different. And while you can argue that different perspectives are good, obviously as the head, you want to be driving the, the, the makeup of your team. Um, I think the performative aspect of interviews, [00:34:10] I understand it's something that we have to go through, but it's such an artificial, um, construct that it doesn't give everybody the chance to shine.
[00:34:21] So in the book, in the chapter, in the book, I just want people to think about is there anything they could change? Uh, that might make the interviews equally as challenging but fairer, I think, for people who, who don't thrive in those kind of [00:34:35] environments.
[00:34:35] Julie: Yeah, that's what kind of struck me reading the book, that you start to see how so many things, not just in education or or in there, do favour extroversion.
[00:34:46] Andrew: Definitely.
[00:34:47] Julie: And, and that made me think really about children and children in our classrooms. Do you still think that we, we we've got somewhere to go about understanding introverted [00:35:00] children and how we manage? Yeah,
[00:35:01] Andrew: yeah, definitely. I think, I think we're making some progress, but I think that the trouble now is the culture in schools is results orientated.
[00:35:11] And the way the system now is set up with Multi-Academy trusts that schools have always got a level above them that they're having to focus on pleasing or, or doing things to improve their results above everything. Or it seems to be that [00:35:25] there is that tendency because a lot of bad things can happen if your results aren't great.
[00:35:30] You can understand why schools might panic. I think that push, push, push approach, it's important not to say that, or not to present introversion, quiet children as like an a special need. However, if our personalities aren't given the chance to shine, then we aren't doing everything we should be doing for them.
[00:35:48] So that kind of [00:35:50] quick response, I mean, I need a, a minute to process things before I can speak. I mean, it's, it's, once I get going, I'm okay, but you want a bit of thinking time. So the idea of sort of fastest finger first type questions in class penalise children who just need to take a little bit longer for the, for their responses.
[00:36:08] That's how I'm going to my, my next step is I'm, I'm, I'm putting together a CPD offer for schools where I, I gotta focus on [00:36:15] the, the subject of introversion in children. So I figured that's a, that's a, a nice separate focus thing that I could do. I'm gonna put together, I'm putting together some, um, online staff meeting materials that I can take them through and hopefully sell it in a way that actually, if the culture of the school is about results, you will get better results from this.
[00:36:37] But also it's meeting the needs of every child.
[00:36:39] Julie: I was gonna [00:36:40] ask you what next after the book, so that that's really, um, great. And we will share your details in the show notes, if that's okay, um, for people to get in touch because Yeah, I, I was just kind of thinking about the amount of children even when I was at school, but, but even, you know, as a teacher more recently, and that would be a comment, they're very quiet.
[00:37:01] Um, yeah. They don't ask questions. They, [00:37:05] and, and actually it is less about changing the children and more about changing the way that we think about the children, isn't it?
[00:37:14] Andrew: Yeah. The, my, my launch off point with, with what I've planned so far is gonna be those children that when it comes to the end of the year and you want to write their end of year reports, the children that you find are their children, that you find it harder to write your, their reports.
[00:37:28] And if there are, then something's not [00:37:30] happening that should be happening. So, yeah.
[00:37:32] Julie: And, and that's so true. As a, as an ex teacher of 26 years, I can think of those times.
[00:37:39] Andrew: Oh, I, I've done it too.
[00:37:40] Julie: Yeah. And it, it makes you feel, and it made me feel written, the book must do better, could do better. Like we can all do better, but it's only about bringing these conversations, isn't it, to the fore opening them up and [00:37:55] getting people to change their thinking a little bit.
[00:37:57] Andrew: Absolutely. And that's what I'm trying, that's what I'm trying to do. Raise my profile, um, my online presence. That's been hard for an introvert to get involved in online things. Um, I, I'm struggling particularly with the sort of culture of Twitter or X as at the moment, but I'm giving it good go, but try to raise my profile.
[00:38:14] And actually that's my. That's really my first thing to do is, is, is to, [00:38:20] is to focus. And that's how I was always as ahead is focus on the children. What can I achieve? And if we can tweak things just to help these kids just do a little bit better and feel a little bit more confident in themselves and know that they don't have to become more outgoing.
[00:38:34] I mean, that was me when I was, I mean, in Italy, it was back in the eighties when I was that age, but that, that was me. There were a lot of us around and that's, I'd love, they'd loved the idea [00:38:45] that I can, I could help some, uh, children feel less terrified of school.
[00:38:50] Julie: So it's not surprising. Is it that you put pen to paper as your No more to get, I just think of what you've just said about social media.
[00:38:58] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:38:58] Julie: But writing I imagine comes much more actually. Yeah.
[00:39:02] Andrew: I was always, I was always, as a head, I was always, um, I used to love writing the newsletter and I used my letters to parents would always get great feedback from the other [00:39:10] staff. Um, I, I loved, I did my English degree. I love writing short stories, that sort of thing.
[00:39:14] So yeah, it's been great to have the opportunity. I, I, I write every day now and, um, I'm working on a few other creative things. Yeah, it's really opened up. I'm doing this full time now. I'm doing, I mean, I'm in the fifties, so I, I need to sort of thought thinking about myself. It's proving really, um, rewarding to date.
[00:39:34] Julie: Lovely. [00:39:35] Um, okay. Just a couple more questions then, and, and maybe as we're going backwards a bit here, but I think there was, um, world Introvert Day. Mm-hmm. Um, you mentioned at the end of the book, and that's starting me thinking about is that like a, a shoehorning to start thinking about, but then I noticed the date, like, seriously, it's January the second for anybody listening and it that just felt amusingly appropriate.
[00:39:59] It was like a [00:40:00] date Nobody recognises Hidden Yeah. Quietly after the big event of the fireworks.
[00:40:06] Andrew: Absolutely.
[00:40:07] Julie: When nobody's paying attention. That made me laugh. But that's,
[00:40:11] Andrew: well, yeah, new Year, Christmas and New Year by the end of, by by January the second. I think everybody's had enough. But introverts in particular, it's, it's a tricky old time of year.
[00:40:19] Yeah. I just, I, I wanted some, the idea of raising the, uh, image and just getting the, getting [00:40:25] people talking a bit more, um, I've, I've planned to do a school one at a different date and actually make that about celebrating introversion as well. I think, yeah. I, I'd love to see it happen. I'd love to see more, more of these kind of discussions rather than the focus on the outgoing, um, confident people.
[00:40:42] We as quiet ones. We need, we need to be celebrated as well.
[00:40:45] Julie: Love that Andrew. You're the man to do it. You're the man to lead the quiet [00:40:50] revolution.
[00:40:50] Andrew: That would be lovely.
[00:40:52] Julie: Andrew. We finish our podcast in exactly the same way. And, um, I wonder if there was one kind thing that you could suggest our listeners did for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:41:05] Andrew: I would say to do something that reminds them of when they were younger. Do something nostalgic. That was one of my, one of my [00:41:15] seven, uh, strategies is to engage in nostalgia. Nostalgia is sometimes forgotten about and it's undervalued as a, as a, a way of looking after ourself and a way of making ourselves feel good.
[00:41:26] So I would say, yeah, do something nostalgic.
[00:41:29] Julie: That's all gorgeous, Andrew. And, and strangely, this morning I was out on my morning walk and there is some sort of bush that's outright now, and it's me in case anybody can help me [00:41:40] identify what this is. And it smells like, and I said it to my husband, I used to collect smelly rubbers.
[00:41:49] Andrew: Oh yeah, honey. Yeah.
[00:41:49] Julie: I, too was a child of V 18, so I had like a snoopy tin and it was full of like rubbers that looked like hot dogs and milkshakes and all of that sort of stuff. And when I used to take the lid off that smell and whatever, these bushes [00:42:05] that's blossoming in me when I walked past it, that's what it smelled like.
[00:42:09] So the rest of my walk that I then went down the rabbit hole. Yeah, absolutely. And I was so excited about my smelly rubber collection.
[00:42:17] Andrew: One of my favourite things is there's some sweetss called nostalgic, and they're all based on 80 sweets. So they're modern sweets. So if you buy those, it's great. You can just, the tastes Yeah.
[00:42:26] And the smells of the kohl cubes and that sort of thing. Get you going. But [00:42:30] yeah, I think it's, it's often, we often try to not think about what we, what things were meaningful to us when we were younger. And I think that's important.
[00:42:38] Julie: Lovely. So get outside, go and buy a quarter of kohl cubes and, um, buy some smelly rubbers for your collection.
[00:42:47] I imagine they don't have the same smell anymore. It was something probably very chemical and probably poisonous, but we [00:42:55] survived. So there we go. Andrew, it's been an absolute joy talking to you, um, today. Thank you so much.
[00:43:00] Andrew: No, thank you. I've, I've loved it.
[00:43:02] Julie: Good, good. I'll put everything in the show notes.
[00:43:04] Gone by the book, it's Crown House Publishing, um, quiet Leadership, the Power of Introversion in Schools by the book. Do contact Andrew if there's anything you feel that he could do, um, around your staff, CBD, around anything to do with [00:43:20] supporting and encouraging, uh, a greater understanding and awareness around staff and children who might be introverted.
[00:43:28] So thank you, Andrew. Good luck.
[00:43:30] Andrew: Thank you.