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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
I am very honored and excited
to have Russell Craig on today.
He is an artist who is just beginning
to explore the equestrian world, but
has a lot to say and a lot to teach us
about working with the foster system,
and kids in the foster system, and also
inmates, and then also people who come
out of jail, and how they are going to
rebuild their lives, and what can we as
equine practitioners learn and offer,
and how should we be approaching this.
And this is slightly new territory for
me because, of course, a- most of you
who know my story know that predominantly
I started with autism, and then moved
from there rather naturally into
trauma and PTSD and veterans and so on.
Other neuropsychiatric conditions.
But because this world of the foster
system and incarceration and so forth is
new to me, I, like anyone who is sane,
would want to be mentored by the people
who know this system from the inside,
rather than coming at it with a series of
opinions which are completely unfounded
because it's outside my experience.
And I think that this is true for all
of us in the equine-assisted world.
The more we're ment- mentored by the
people who we are here to serve, the more
likely we are to be able to serve them
in the way that is actually beneficial.
And if we don't look for that mentorship
from the populations we serve, we're
always gonna be hampered and hamstrung.
So, Russell, thank you so
much for coming on the show.
You are a successful artist now
living between Philadelphia and the
Wellington equestrian scene, which
many of us know is a, it's sort of
its own can of worms in many ways.
So it's, this is fascinating.
And you, your story, of
course, can inform us.
So without further ado, welcome, and
can you just tell us who you are, how
you got here, and what we should know?
Russell Craig: Well, I'd like to thank
you before I begin, for having me.
And, I'm just a guy
coming from Philadelphia.
Had a rough start very early on.
Oh, and I'm, I'm back and forth
from Florida to New York, but
I'm originally from Philadelphia.
Got it.
But I'm more like Florida, New York.
Okay.
And since about the age of five is when
I was placed in the foster care system
and was there for a number of years.
I th- I believe I was, like, 12 around
the age when I like, ran away from
one of the placements that I was at.
And I was in the group homes and all kinds
of stuff all, all of my younger years.
And then around, like, 12 or so, 12,
13 or so is when I, like, ran away.
Then I just was, like, in the streets.
And then with that comes, like,
hustling and things like that drug
dealing, cocaine and things like
that, smoking weed and things.
And then, I got locked up in a
juvenile, like, lockup facility.
I think I was, like, 14.
Just d- like, kinda doing that
in and out of that kind of
situations for, for a hot second.
And, like, 19, 20 is when I hit prison,
real prison, and did a number of years.
I did a total of 12 years
in prison, and not straight.
On the last stay in prison
I, I did seven years.
So, all through that time, you
know, I was always into art
even when I was, like, a kid.
But once, when, around the age of
12 and things, when I was, like,
running the streets, I I kinda,
like, got away from art a bit.
But once I went into the prison system,
I reconnected with art because I use
art as, like, a way to block out,
like, the situation, like, or being
in that kinda environment and things.
And then it just allowed me to,
like, escape and have a focus and
not be, like caught up in anything.
Like, I didn't even participate
in, like, a lot of the day-to-day
activities, like, basketball.
And I would lift weights and things like
that sometimes, but I wasn't really into
the, like, the day-to-day normal routine.
And it was other people locked up that was
also like me that was, like, really into
whatever their interest was, their craft.
Like, if some would work out, would,
like, would work out really deep,
really, like, intensely be into it.
And you had a lot of guys that,
like, studied law really good to
the point where a few of them got
out and was walkin'- working with
law, law firms and things like that.
And then you had, like,
a number of artists.
You had some, like,
really amazing artists.
Like, like, for an example, this
one artist, he would make like,
these sculptures out of soap, and
they would, like, look so crazy.
Like, you wouldn't even know
that that was soap if he wouldn't
have told you they was soap.
He did this one that was, like, this
big eagle, and it was like, I don't
know how he took different pieces of
soap and made it one thing so, like,
big and sturdy and things like that.
It was pretty interesting.
I, I w- I don't even know his methods
of putting that together, but that's
just, like, giving you an example.
So myself, I was just a- Doing a lot of
portraits and things like that because
I me coming from, like, the foster care
situation, I never had, like, family.
'Cause you could be, like, in a
foster care setting and still have,
like, family where you go visit or
they maybe visit you or whatever.
But I, like, didn't really have a family
dynamic, like, really like that at all.
And then the, the family that I
did have was all, like, in the
streets and things like that, and
was like into negative things.
So when I would get with them, you would
get re- reintrodu- or, or, or, or back in
the circle of of, like, the streets and
things that's, like, negative that can
end you, end you up in prison or worse.
So art was, like, a way to, to,
like, really, like, just escape that
in a lot of different ways, like
mentally and also, like, actually.
Like, like literally, like, separating
me from those s- from those worlds.
And then if we wanna
fast-forward to, likeâ¦
And then a- after I got out, I
started doing murals in Philly
before I moved to New York.
And with, And truly, like, blessed.
I think, I think people should,
should understand too, like,
especially, like, now, it continues.
It continues.
I won't even get into recent things
that happened, but I'll just generally
try to explain that when you get on,
like, the path you're supposed to
be on, like, things start happening.
And then it's like you can manifest
things, you can have plans, and then
it be like some things they come
happen that be b- that be beyond you.
And I am a living,
like, testimony to that.
Because once we get into the, the,
the, the, the the portion of this
conversation where we wanna talk
about, like, how I started to get
success with the with the art.
Like, some of it just was like
you'd be amazed at, like, how things
just you couldn't even plan it.
You'd just be on that path and
be like, "This what I'ma do.
I'ma do this art.
I want my art to have some kinda
intentions with, like, inspiring
and helping other people.
Also take care of myself where if
I don't have to do anything that's
breaking the law or anything like
that, and also following my passion."
You know, that's the, that's the path.
And then other things come your
way that's, like, beyond myself
is how I would explain it.
So yeah, like when I got out of prison,
I was doing murals in Philadelphia
to the point where I was, like,
on the news, got invited to the
White House, all kinds of stuff.
And things was happening,
like, pretty fast.
It didn't take, like, a long time
because I had these, like, dreams
and goals and things like that,
aspirations and manifestation-type
mindset when I was in prison.
Like, I had the vision.
I told people.
Like, Iâ¦
And, and one of the projects that I
did when I got out of prison was on the
African American Museum, and I called it
Prophesize because I basically, likeâ¦
And that still was early on, but for,
at that, around that time, like, oh,
I got a mural in the African American
Museum in Philadelphia was like a big
thing for me to be coming, like, from
the streets and, like, have no kind of
connection to anything art related, and
to be recognized and to be given that
kind of opportunity, which is crazy.
Then around that time, I did a show with
the Democratic National Convention in
2015, and it was all these, like, star
artists involved, and I was, like, a
no-name, like, no never heard of me.
And it was already crazy that
somehow I was able to be in,
in participating in that show.
But then also was, like, my pieces was,
was really well-received by the people.
Like, and it happened quite a few times,
too, where my work was really appreciated,
like, beyond my, you know, expectation.
Like, I didn't think that people
would, like, like the work like that.
Or another example here in
Wellington, like, a lot of people
love the work, and they're coming
from another, you know, kind of
background, like a different world.
And for them to appreciate the work
and appreciate the story of, like, how
I triumphed over, like, streets and no
family and prison and all that kind of
stuff, and to be to this level where I'm
in quite a number of museums' permanent
collections and things like that, Emmy
Award-winning for a documentary that
I was in, and it just, like, the list
kind of goes on and keep continuing
because there's new stuff coming.
So, yeah, and then I just, like,
basically keep my focus on that and
just keep pushing, never get content.
You know what I mean?
There's always room for
improvement, and just keep, likeâ¦
Like, I was gonna do some work last
night, and I'm glad I didn't rush it.
I was gonna, like, rush some stuff.
I had the initial idea, and then
I'm like, "Let me pump this out."
It was a lot of work to do, a lot
of things, deadlines and stuff, a
lot of stuff going on right now.
But then I had to slow it down
and and really think about,
like, what to do, you know?
So, like, that's another thing too.
People should, like, take their time.
You don't wanna procrastinate and,
like, you know, take too much time, but
then you also don't wanna rush things
because when, when I, when I set with
ideas and things, I really had a clearer
vision of, like, what to execute.
So, like, you know, take a moment to
get, gather yourself and, and, and,
and, Like, I don't wanna say slow
walking, 'cause you don't wanna go
too slow either, 'cause you, you gotta
seize moments and stuff like that.
But it just go with the flow, just
be in the flow, get on a proper path.
And, like, when we had that conversation
and you y'all brought to my attention
that y'all do horses therapeutic,
like work with the, with the formerly
incarcerated or individuals and also,
like, foster kids, it's like, bro,
it's right up my alley 'cause I come
from those two backgrounds, and then
now here I am in in equestrian space.
I have a gift right here that
somebody gave me, a crystal horse.
One of my collectors or whatever.
It's really nice.
But it's like this is the world we in
now, so it's like, it's awesome to have
the opportunity, and I'm really looking
forward to, like, what we could put
together and, like, traveling to the,
like, places you be and, like, really
showing the world Like this, and then
it is really the opportunity to take the
art and, and, and, and bring it to people
that, you know, probably wouldn't reach.
And I'm saying particularly my art and
the things that I'm, like, trying to
highlight, and then we have, like, the
horses and then the work that we doing.
So I really thinkâ¦
And then the different cities
and countries and things we
gonna be in with this, I really
am excited about all of this.
So I'm glad that in my
path that everything that I
experienced, ups and downs of it.
Then another thing I've been
noticing, I've been noticing a lot
of, like, when things been going
bad, it be, like, a good part to it.
I used to always lean towards,
like, "Oh, I can't believe this
happened," blah, blah, blah, right?
But then it be, like, look at whatâ¦
If you really take a minute and look
at everything, it be, like, a reason.
Sometimes something crazy'll
happen to st- to, to, like, stop
you from going a certain place.
Like, maybe you was not supposed to
go to this place, or something would
come and sabotage your whole thing.
And I be looking at the, the big
picture, and and it's like sometime
things be aligned that way.
So with all that being said, I go back to
what I was saying about, like, my path.
Like, it's really feeling good to be,
like, where we are, and I'm, like,
very excited about things in the future
and things we could put together.
And not just us-
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So absolutely.
I, I just want to sort of, for the, the
listeners who are wondering what we might
be referring to there just f- so full
disclosure, listeners and, and watchers
so Russell and his friend Will and our
own amazing Leanna Tank those of you who
know her or don't know her, you should
look for our, our recent podcast with
her are talking about adapting what we
do with Horse Boy, a movement method,
and TAKIN towards a project with foster
kids people in incarceration, and people
coming out of incarceration because
this seems to be kind of a funnel, the
foster care to the school to the prison
funnel, which I think a lot of people
are aware of and needs to be addressed,
but without the right without the
right mentorship, there's no chance.
But with, with Russell coming in here, I
think we have the guidance to, to do that.
So it's quite exciting.
But Russell, I just want to
ask you so your world was not
an equestrian world at all.
And when I met you by chance, well,
through a mutual acquaintance a couple of
months ago in Wellington, I was thinking,
"What are you doing in Wellington?"
You know, because there's, there's
many different types of equestrian
environment out there in the USA.
But Wellington is known for being the
sort of height of privileged East Coast
money and the international sports scene.
It's not known as a place for therapy
or good works particularly, although
there are a lot of philanthropists there.
It's known really for sport and wealth.
So I was intrigued that
you were there in a studio.
And when I connected with your
work and looked at your work, I was
like, "Wow, this is really good."
I mean, you were talking about,
oh, well, you know, it seemed quite
surprising perhaps, or out of nowhere
that your work got recognized.
But when I was looking at it in the
studio, I was like, "Well, I can
see why this work is recognized,"
'cause it's just like top-notch art.
And for anyone who's, you know,
listening or, or watching, you
should look up Russell Craig's art.
It's, it's phenomenally good.
And I'm a snob because my mom's an artist
So I, I, I won't say something is
good if, if I don't think it is.
I'll just politely talk
about something else.
But Russell, your art is really,
really good, and your equestrian
art is really, really good.
And it's, itâ¦
When you're drawing and painting
horses, it's as if you had a knowledge
of horses and an eye for a horse,
which you didn't grow up with.
But for me as a horseman, I'm like,
"Wow, he really sees the movement
and the expression of the horse.
This is interesting to me."
So why are you here in
this equestrian space?
What has drawn you in?
What, yeah, whatâ¦
It, it's intriguing to me
Russell Craig: Well, it goes back to
what I was saying earlier about, like,
there's been quite a few situations
in which, like, some things happen
and it don't be like my plans.
Like, I had no knowledge
of, like, Wellington.
It was my connection to Will Will Tamita
that I met a number of years ago in
Palm Beach with New Wave that was aâ¦
I was invited to come do a, a speech.
And around that time I was doing, like,
a lot of traveling and, and doing, like,
panel talks and things like that at,
like, Harvard, Yale number of places.
Like, I can't even give
you the whole rundown.
But yeah, it was, He
re- reached out to me.
It happened to be, I just yesterday
got all my stuff out the World Trade
Center, for that was my studio in New
York for three years, and it's just been
really, really deep to, like, for this
transition, like, connecting this to y-
your question of, like, how I got here,
and like now I'm, like, really here.
Mm.
I'm likeâ¦
You know, I got with Will.
We had a show.
First we had a show in in- Will
Rupert Isaacson: owns the gallery in
in, in Wellington where you are and
sitting right now talking to us from.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
He's my gallery representation,
him and his partner John.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Russell Craig: His partner.
And and, Yeah, like,
we did the Armory Show.
He he was in the area in New York,
was conducting some business,
and I popped in his head.
And which is, is interesting 'cause
we haven't seen each other in years,
but, And then also, like, somehow
he, he remembered that Silver Arts
residency in the World Trade Center
building three was, like, a thing.
So he like, "Oh, I wonder if Russ was
still there," which was interesting
'cause it was only supposed to
have been a year residency in
which I winded up doing three.
So when he showed up, it could
have been a strong possibility
that I wouldn't have been there.
He messaged me too and DM'd
me on Instagram, and I'm
like, "Yeah, I'm up here now."
And I was working on
my Prison Door series.
This is, like, an example,
this one right here.
I was working on one of those.
It was when I was, like,
beginning that work.
And he was like, "This
should be exhibited."
And he was like, he was already having
plans on trying to like well, he got the
gallery es- established, and it was, like,
a new gallery here in Wellington, but
his reach goes outside of just Florida.
So, like, that's why he was, like,
in New York handling business and
then happened to, like, think of me
and wanted to see what I was up to.
And I was working on some work that
wasn't really being shown like that.
Beth De Woody from Palm Beach, she's
a big collect- collector, and she had
collected the piece and exhibited in
Palm Beach at The Bunker, where she has
an exhibition every year that's, like,
really well-known, really well-respected.
So being collected by
her was really helpful.
And then we did a show in The Armory.
He was like, "Yo, this
work should be shown.
Is you with anybody
representing all that?"
I'm like, "No, I'm, like, been doing
it for myself for the last few years."
I had representation in Chelsea
for a hot second, and things didn't
work out and kind of fell apart.
My galleries then, he had issues in
which he couldn't continue the gallery.
He also had a space in Aspen, Colorado,
and when that, like, kind of fell apart,
I kind of just was on my own with it.
And him showing up, I'm
like, "Yeah, I'm ready.
Let's do it."
I've been making these works, you
know, just in case, you know, just,
just, like, just to be making them,
and that's how I was inspired to
do where they didn't really have no
place that where the work was going
or I didn't have any representation.
So we had Armory is a respected
art, art exhibition that
happens in New York every year.
So we put together a show and
it w- it went really well.
Sold everything.
And it j- and it was well received.
Like the people, the visitors and things
like that really connected with the
work that, that you see right here.
This isâ¦
It was, you know, similar, all the pieces.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: a prison
door behind you, right?
A cell door.
Yeah.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Yeah.
Abstracted,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Russell Craig: solitary confinement
series is, is more abstracted.
And then, the the the, the more
common prison doors have like a
slot where I'll have like a, a face
that's representational of like,
a inmate being behind on bars.
And then also I'm working on like some
new works where I'm like touching on how
not only, let's say you didn't go through
the prison system like I did literally,
but we be in our own like prisons.
You could be trapped in like
a job you don't want to be in.
You could be trapped in like
a, a relationship or marriage
that's like feel like a prison.
So it's like different ways
mentally you could be in chains.
So, with trauma and things like
that and, and mental health and,
and things like that can be issues
that can be holding you back.
So, like I'm- Mm ⦠I'm like making
the work also touch on those like like
examples of that you could possibly
be in prison in different ways.
Mm.
But then to bring it around, making
it long-winded, but it's like then
we had a show, a follow-up show here.
'Cause we did well, well in the New Y-
New York show, and then we had a show here
in Wellington, and then the people from
Wellington came out and like supported.
A few of them like looked me up
and they feel like my story is like
amazing, like how I triumphed over
like the things that I, that I went
through and, and I feel that way too.
Like recently I really was
putting thought to that of
like, like, wow, I did reallyâ¦
'cause in survival and just like
trying to keep it going and, and making
things happen and just, you know,
being an artist and trying to maintain
a- and continue success as an artist
and also, you know, for a living and
things like that, I didn't get too
caught up in like, like, I made it.
Like I don't be really in my
mind like that, that too much.
But like lately I was thinking likeâ¦
And then I've been keeping
it pretty consistent.
But I told you it would be beyond me.
It's like you do what you do, and then
also it be forces that's beyond you, the
universe, God, whatever you wanna call it.
And it's been genuine.
You gotta be genuine and
you gotta be thankful.
And I've been, I've been
concentrating on the thankful.
Remember I told you I was like- When
bad things would happen, I would,
like, really concentrate on it.
And I'm not h- I don't have it mastered.
From time to time I get
aggravated and stuff like that.
Fair
Rupert Isaacson: wheel.
Yeah.
Russell Craig: I'm way better than I
used to be, where I shift my mental.
I be like, I stay thankful and in
a good spirit about the good stuff.
Like, I f- I shift my
focus to what's good.
Mm.
And then I also look at, like,
well, how is this beneficial?
Even though this is, like, a problematic
situation, I try to look at, like,
like, where's the good in it?
And, and with all that- Where's the
Rupert Isaacson: awesome here?
That- that's a quote
which I- Yeah ⦠yeah.
Russell Craig: Beautiful.
Yeah, yeah.
No, thatâ¦
No, it really works.
It really works.
Because and then it helps you to see
that, like, it's even, like, a good
in the bad, if, if it makes sense.
When I was youngâ¦
It's Kona.
Kona, Kona feeling that.
Like, that's right.
That's right, Kona.
Kona knows.
Every time I'm having a conversation and
it get to a deep part, Kona show love.
Like, yeah, that's right.
And that connects to them horses.
Like, you gotta, like, you
gotta connect with them.
You can't just be jumping on somebody
horse and you, you don't have no,
like, you don't have no kinda,
like, re- re- respect for each
other or, like, an understanding.
And I'm, like, new to this,
and but even when, when whenâ¦
First let me finish up you was like
how I got to Weddington, 'cause then
I was about to get into, like, the
horses and, 'cause you had said about,
Rupert Isaacson: like- Yeah, that's
obviously the next question I want to ask
you, is what's your impression and, and
what is your relationship with horses?
But let's finish up how you got
here, and then let's go there.
Russell Craig: So, so we have
a, a show in Armor on my in
Weddington in the clubhouse gallery.
And we have two spaces.
So we in aâ¦
This space right here is it has art
and things like that, but this is
more of, like, the space where had,
where we had our meeting and things.
Then the other space is,
like, primarily gallery.
And that's where we had the show.
Did really well.
Connected with the people.
You know, they'd been inviting me
to come at they other houses and
other coun- they got houses in other
countries and all that stuff, and
it just been really, really good.
Like, really well received.
And then it was, it was them, like
Will and others from Wellington was
like, "Yo, you should just move here."
'Cause I was thinking of, like, as I
get more successful to I wanted to move
to Brazil and still do work in America.
You know, have my work shipped
and, you know, paint while I'm
there and just do what I do.
But, but I wanted toâ¦
I had visited Brazil and I really liked
it, and and the people who I shared
that with, that I was in thinking of
that, they was like, "No, you should,
you should move here to Florida."
And it basically was you know,
unanimous how everybody was like,
"You need to get out of New York."
Like, it was just, I was in New
York for seven years, and it justâ¦
And I love New York.
I didn't have, like, no big
problems that was, like, so crazy.
Like, Philly was, was, like,
a problematic like, city, and
I needed to grow and move on.
And then, you know, I went to New
York and a lot of great things
happened, and then it just was time.
Like, it like, it's,
it's just how it works.
Like, theâ¦
And, and it's good to be, you need
to be in tune so you know when to
go with the flow, when you know
of, like, what's next and things.
So what was next was, was,
was here, Wellington, Florida.
And was like, I've
been, like, called here.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Russell Craig: Sometime you,
you be summoned, you know?
So, so when we're here- So, so
Rupert Isaacson: here you are, right?
And you're now surrounded
by horses and horsey people,
and you're looking at horses.
You're putting horses in your art.
What are you seeing?
What'sâ¦
T- t- talk to us about it
through the lens of you.
Russell Craig: I mean, I don't wanna
get all, all, all weird, so try
to fo- follow me, 'cause I'm very
spiritual, you know what I'm saying?
So, Get as
Rupert Isaacson: weird as you want
Russell Craig: So like, I see the the
horse absolutely as like a spirit animal.
Like, it's here in the physical
realm, but it's, it's a
spiritual aspect to the horse.
It's to, like, everybody and everything,
but what specifically, likeâ¦
And then also I, I see coming from,
like, my experience, like, on, like,
freedom when you see the horse,
especially, like, it running free, how
powerful it is and things like that.
But then how kind it can be, and
then sometime they can be not unkind.
You know what I mean?
Things like that, and it's just likeâ¦
And then, then it's aspects of
them being, like, in captivity-
Mm ⦠the same way that I've been.
So I, I would hope to, like, And
then you have situations where
horses, there are some horses not
being treated well and things like
that, so that what comes to my mind.
I'm always thinking about,
like, how the similarities.
And then I had explained to you
when we was in our meeting about,
like, how a private prison had,
had, was built in Virginia, and they
they shipped us from Pennsylvania.
They shipped a number of us to
this private prison, and they used
horse trailers that they converted
into transportation vehicles.
So then that really, like, helps me
to connect with like how some horses
are, like, in captivity, 'cause I
was in the same trailers in whichâ¦
And then they treated me like an
animal and, and, you know, us that
they transported like that because I
don't know why with the, the prison
system being, like, a multi-billion
dollar business that they couldn't
get, like, buses and things like that.
And they, and they did have, but they had
more than one, so some of them was buses.
But why wasn't it all buses?
They had some that was, like,
horse trailers converted into
transportation, which was, like,
kind of strange to me, you know?
But Wellington helped me to look
at the horses as, like, more in
a positive, 'cause everything out
here is, like, pretty beautiful,
especially, like, seeing it jumping.
Will, he plays polo.
We went to some polo games
and things like that.
I haven't had a chance to see the
dressage yet, but I wanted to.
And it just, it just, it's just,
like, a beautiful environment, so you
observe, go out there, observe it, and
then, like, I try to, like, make that
connection 'cause with all my work,
not just the horses, you, like, you
need to have, like, your soul, like,
a part of myself is in it, right?
And then you have to capture- The spirit,
like the soul, the spirit of the work.
'Cause then when you do that and be
in, like, a p- try to be, like, in a
positive space, vibrate positive, and
it kinda, it connects to the work.
Then I also, I went to go seeâ¦
I went to the MoMA, and
there's a artist, Jack Whitten.
He passed away, but he's one
of my favorite artists, and
his work was, like, so strong.
His, the, and the, and, like,
I could feel the energy.
So I'm like, I'm talking about
overwhelmingly, not, like, not kinda.
You know how sometimes you have these
little feelings or whatever, you
get these little, like, signals or,
or, or whatever they wanna call it?
But, like, with his
work, it was very strong.
And then, then it taught me.
I was like, "Oh, this
is what I'm doing here."
Like, and I kinda had an
understanding, but feeling his
power, I was like, "Oh, yeah."
So, so with that, anything
that I do with the horses, you
wanna, like, you sit withâ¦
That's just like I was, I was talking
earlier, and I was like, I was gonna do
a thing, and I was gonna kinda rush into
it 'cause I had an initial idea, and
I'm like, "Let me get started on this,
get it done, present it to this person."
And I said, "Nope, nope, nope.
I need to take a minute and really
figure it out," really, like, letâ¦
And then when you quiet yourself, quiet
your mind, I guess you could say, like,
meditation, kinda, to a level of that, the
thoughts and the ideas come even stronger.
And that's what f- like, places
like Florida, Aspen, I really
like Brazil and things like that.
Like, some of these places, I, I think
the spiritual energy is even stronger.
In cities and stuff like that,
like New York and Philadelphia,
it's, like, a lotta distraction.
Like, and it's things that don'tâ¦
But when you here with these palm trees
and stuff like that and these envi-
and the beach and all that kinda stuff,
it helps you to, like, hear loud.
You can hear it clearer when you quiet
things down, and then that's when the
inspiration come and the visions come,
and then you put it into the work.
And that, that connects to the-
Rupert Isaacson: What, what do you
feel the horses are communicating
to you there in Wellington?
I mean, you, you, you, you drew
a parallel between incarceration
and horses, you know, in stalls.
You drew you talked about horses
running free, but of course, horses
running free is, is not what one's
going to see really in Wellington.
That said it's ambiguous because there's
lots of horses that really enjoy their
job there, and there's horses that don't.
There's horses that are very well-treated.
There's horses that aren't.
You know, it's, it's,
one sees all of this.
What do youâ¦
What, what's the predominant thing
that comes through to you from
the horse world as you see it?
Russell Craig: Well, I can't, like,
get into, like, like, like I'm
some expert or things like that.
I'm pretty new here, and
I'm pretty new to horses.
But I can kinda a- answer that because
when you s- when you asked me that
question, I, I go into when I hadâ¦
was invited to someone's stable.
I went to quite a few of them,
but it was a particular one that I
remember because you said, "What doâ¦
Where are the horses commu-
communicating to you?"
So when I was walking in this, this, this
stable, I was noticing without words,
that's what I'm saying, it's really deep.
Like, I don't knowâ¦
A- and I know I'm not the only one.
There are other people that's
in tune like that and can getâ¦
Especially them people that's really,
that know horses and been around
them for years and things like that.
And but, but some of them got horses
and been around them for years
and, and, and are not connected.
I walk through, and I could feel
the horses, like, acknowledging me.
As I said, I don't wanna get weird,
but, like, but try to follow me for the
people that's like, "This guy's crazy."
The horses was like, was
like, "Who is this guy?"
Like, and it was, like,
personality in each horse.
Like, so then this one horse
at the end, like, he, like,
looked and was, like, not happy.
Like, didn't even wannaâ¦
Like, he wasn'tâ¦
Like, the other pe- the other
horses, the other people.
I was gonna say people.
Other people.
The other horses-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Russell Craig: The, the other, the
other horses was, like, curious.
They was giving, like, a kinda curious,
And I didn't wanna, like, just touch any.
I kinda, like, slowly go to them and
see if they, you know, is okay with you,
like, petting them and things like that.
But this one horse was, like,
aggravated to the point where it,
like, And not, like, bucking or, or
acting crazy, but the energy was,
like, not interested that I was there.
And it seems likeâ¦
And it wasn't just about me showing up.
It was a, like, that's where
the horse was at on some stuff.
Like, probably didn't like the
environment being capture- being, like,
in captivity, being, like, trapped,
being in that little space or whatever.
Like, some people might think that
the horse is okay with that, but I
feel like that one horse wasn't okay.
So it'd be stuff like that.
And then I can go deeper into a, a
different situation where I was around
somebody that had a whole lot of cows,
and it was real, real deep thing happened
there, but I won't, I won't get into that.
We could, we could stay
on the horses for now.
Rupert Isaacson: I think we'd
like to know about the cow
situation, and I'll tell you why.
My biggest mentor in my work was, is Dr.
Temple Grandin, who is autistic
and had a lot of her breakthroughs
of communication with cows.
And I think a lot of people who are
listening to this show know that really
these big sentient beings that we work
with, whether it's horses, cattle,
dogs, wildlife, you know, it, it's
all the field of consciousness, right?
So please do tell us about the,
the experience with the cattle
'cause I think there's, there's
stuff we can learn from it all.
Russell Craig: I won't go
too deep because I can't.
Okay.
But I'll try to just direct-
Rupert Isaacson: Summarize.
Yeah
⦠Russell Craig: yeah, folks in a direction,
and they have to do their own research.
And, and, and I don't wanna go
too deep what would happen 'cause
they're not gonna believe me.
So, I was just one of the people who I,
I, I should have mentioned Agnes earlier.
Agnes Gund art patron used to be head of
the MoMA, sold Roy Lichtenstein for $165
million, and really did a lot of work
that helped formerly incarcerated folks.
And and and this, she, she helped a lot
of people and really big in the art world.
So I was on her property, one
of her properties, Upstate New
York, and she has a whole lot
of, she had a whole lot of cows
So, as I, like, approached the cows
'cause the, the, the same way how
you, oh, you see horses, hey, like
go, we, we, we be with the horses
down here and we will go down to where
they be, where they jump and stuff.
We be, like, down where,
where they at, like, 'cause
we know the riders and things.
So it was kinda like that kind
of a situation where you, like,
really cl- we would go close.
So I'm, like, approaching them and just
thinking, oh, cows, yeah, this is cool.
Hey, happy on someâ¦
That's where my mind was at.
Butâ¦
And I'm trying to be
careful with my words.
When I explain how I went through the
horse s- stable and and I could tell
that the horses was, like, curious to
who I was, the majority of them, and
then was that one that was unhappy.
The cows was a little different
and the energy with them
Not liking their situation was
very strong, and also they were
knowledgeable of, like, that they
would be, that they're, like,
they're gonna be slaughtered
And that's all.
I, I can go a little deeper than
that, but I don't want to get too-
Mm-hmm ⦠but that's what I'll say.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Russell Craig: They have knowledge
that, that, and it's very similar
to, like, when we were in prison
and those in prison on death row
And I kind of just leave it there.
And I'm not talking
about what, what I think.
I'm not talking about what I think.
It was a weird thing that happened that
I'm not talking, that I'm not gonna speak,
'cause you gotta be careful- Mm-hmm,
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm ⦠what
Russell Craig: you say.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well, I, I
think, I think most of us that work
with animals really closely have
had these types of experiences.
So I think anyone who's listening
would empathize with this that
it goes beyond the rational.
There is a communicative field, you
know, in which all living beings
are communicated, and one can tune
that out or one can go towards it.
But one of the lovely things about
working with animals, as we know, is it
tends to bring us into contact with it.
And so yeah, I, I, I think what you
described there is something which will
be not unfamiliar for a lot of people.
You'd also talked to me before in a
previous conversation about how sometimes
when you were being moved around in prison
with shackles, that sort of thing, that
you felt that there were some sort of
similarities with how people might move
horses around and that sort of thing.
And of course, I as a horse person,
if I'm, got a ho- a halter on a horse
and I'm leading a horse somewhere,
there's nothing in my mind about this
horse being in any way incarcerated.
I mean, I might be leading him out to let
him loose in the pasture, for example.
And at the same time, what is, or I
have to, what I have to acknowledge
as a horseman is that- The horse is
only partly master of its own destiny.
I am the arbiter as the,
as the owner of the horse.
And, and no matter how much I respect
that horse, it- it's under my care.
And so I have to be very careful,
you know, to listen to what the
desires of that horse are, toâ¦
If the horse is saying no
today to listen to that.
And for example, I wasn't
brought up with that at all.
I was brought up with, if the horse
seems to having a negative reaction
to something you want him to do,
you must make the horse do it.
And then I realized later on in life, no,
that's absolutely completely backwards.
If the horse is saying clearly no about
something, you must listen and ask
yourself, "Why is this horse saying this?
And what do I need to change?
What's the horse telling me here?"
This could even be something that
might save my life or the life
of the kid that I'm working with.
And if the horse feels that sense
of agency that they could say no,
interestingly, once I started to
respect that more, I found that
horses showed up saying yes much
more because they could say no.
But that was not something
that I was taught growing up.
So I'm, I'm, I'm sort of
intrigued by your sense of this.
You're there in the sport
world in Wellington.
The horses are there to perform.
They're, they're bought expensively.
If they don't perform well
in the competition, they go.
They, they're moved on to something else.
D- what's your feeling when you're
there, having been moved around yourself
in shackles, that sort of thing?
How, what do you feel are
the, are the similarities?
What do you feel is not similar?
What's your experience?
Russell Craig: No, I would say, I would
say you're pretty much hitting it.
Like, it's, it's these situations where
it's very similar to, I had a painting
when you showed up that I, that I
made, And it it was supposed to have
been representational of, like, it was
of a horse and a, and a, and a rider,
and then the rider's, like, halfway.
You can't see the h- you can't see the
rider, only, like, parts of the rider.
And the horse is, and the, the head of
the horse is, like, in f- in the focus.
And it, the horse was supposed to have
been representational of me and my,
like, experience in being in captivity.
So I actually did a piece.
Now, the problem with that piece wasâ¦
And everybody was like, "Oh, that's a
great painting," blah, blah, blah, right?
But then it was, like, kinda reading
as, like, just an equestrian piece.
So I felt like, you know, I didn't
execute it properly to, to convey what
I really wanted to, like, speak on
about, like, how there's a connection
between, like, my experience in
being in captivity and and the horse.
But then, and, and I also wanted to, like,
highlight freedom as well because, like,
the horse runs and the rider runs fast.
And with that is, like, freedom,
your hair through the, the, the wind
through your hair and things like
that of the horse and stuff like that.
And the same way when you, like, if you
in a convertible and you riding fast,
it's like this good feeling you feel
of, like, coasting through the wind.
But as far as that piece, I think
it just was, like, people just
seeing a, oh, it's just a horse.
So it, it, it didn't have the I
think a strong enough, execution
in which that I kind of got
across what I was, like, thinking.
But that, that thinking
came from how I see it.
And then when you asked me, like,
what I, what I think about here in
Wellington, like, I haven't been
here, like, long enough, butâ¦
'Cause everything that I see here is
pretty much, like, is a good time.
Like, and it looks good, and
it seems like, it feels like
the horses is, is, like, pretty
much well taken care of overall.
And then once somebody
was, somebody wasâ¦
I was in a conversation w- with one of
the people that have horses and things,
and they was telling me, like, how, how
some horses be in terrible situations.
And I, and I was like, "Oh, I'm,
I'm gonna make work about that.
Like, I'm, I'm glad you told me that."
And it's like, she was like,
"Wait a minute, wait a minute.
But you don't, you don't need to be no
activist for the horses because, like, a
lot of these horses live better than you."
And I'm like, "Well, you just got
finished telling me how bad things are."
And then when I say I'ma, I should
do something about this or, you know,
make some work touching on these,
these, these issues that you bringing
to my attention, but you gonna tell
me not to, it was kind of weird.
You know what I mean?
So I guess it's like that.
It's just, like, a mixture.
But, but here I have only really
experienced and seen, like, a lot
of positivity and, like, things-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And I, I would say that that is the case.
I mean, the, the sport world of
horses is taking a lot of heat right
now because of some bad actors.
But the vast majority of people
who are involved in the scene treat
their horses very well and are
very concerned for their horses.
And at the same time, I think there
n- there's need for an evolution.
There's n- a need for our relationship
with all animals to begin to shift.
But that's not gonna happen overnight.
And so it's, it ⦠You're in a, you're
in a very interesting place there.
You know, one, one of our jobs in
the equine-assisted world, or the,
the equine therapy world, is giving
second careers to horses when they
have finished their sport life.
You know, if you think about, if you
take it like to a human and you're,
let's say you're an NFL player, you know.
And what are you gonna do?
You only have a certain number of
years you're gonna do that for.
What are you gonna do for the
rest of your life after that?
And if you've taken a certain number
of injuries in the course of your
sport career, mental, physical
you know, emotional, how are those
gonna be rehabbed and turned into
strengths in that second career?
Or will you not have a second career?
You're just gonna, you know, sm- snort
up half of Peru because you can't get
the, you can't get the high that you
got on the rug- on the r- football
field anymore or ⦠You know, all
of these things can come into play.
And horses, of course, are bred by
the million for the sport world,
and then are sort of brought through
at the end of it, sometimes in
rather early retirement because it's
quite demanding on their bodies.
And other horses go on to live, to do
a ripe old age within the sport world
because they're really well looked after.
One sees everything good and bad in there.
But it's intriguing to me, you know,
because obviously I'm, I'm often dealing
with the horses that are coming out,
are coming out and needing rehab,
and then looking for that second
career for them, which is often quite
a meaningful one, helping people.
Now tell me if you had been taken out to
an equine-assisted place when you were
a young foster kid what would you think
would have been the most useful type of
experience you could have had to, that
could have begun to affect your outcomes?
I'm not saying that anyone who's running
an equine-assisted service can necessarily
keep a kid from the streets out of jail,
but nonetheless, what experiences do
you think would be the optimal ones if
you were guiding an equine-facilitated
place now looking back at yourself as
a child, what would you want to see?
Russell Craig: What I would want to see?
I mean, when you asked me that question
and like if I was like back then where
I w- you know, me coming up and if I was
participating in a, in a program like
that to me it would be just like amazing.
'Cause first of all, you have people
that care about, about you to be,
you know, there with you and, and
also caring for like the horses.
Just that caring environment and,
and being around those spirit animals
like would just have been so crazy.
Would've been like, just I don'tâ¦
I likeâ¦
And then you young, so you know how
with age we really start to realize
the details of how bad things can be.
Like, we know bad, you know, good and
bad as a, as a, as kids, but like not
in, not as much as when we get older.
So it would, it would just, it
would've just been like a really joyous
experience for myself, and who knows
what kind of direction I would've went.
Because it's certain things that was
really important for like my life to
make me be like where I'm at today.
So that could, it, that could
have possibly had me in a
whole different kind of a way.
You know what I mean?
To, to, to, to be connected
to to something like that.
'Cause see, in my upbringing, I
was like n- like there was noâ¦
It wasâ¦
I don't wanna say no, there was
very few opportunities to likeâ¦
We went to like the zoo sometime
and shit like that, but like- Not
like something that's hands-on and,
like, you really working and then
you really getting to understand.
That's what, like, that, for an example,
I wa- I can't wait to come see what youâ¦
'Cause you was like, you explained, like,
how you work with horses that are now,
like, like, retired from the sport and
things like that, and I would love to to,
like, feel and s- like, experience but
then also feel those horses of, likeâ¦
'Cause I know it's a different
energy of, like, oh, I'm like,
I do, I, like, I run freer.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's not,
like, same kind of aâ¦
I can't wait to see, 'cause I can
already, the way you explaining
it is a different thing.
So I don't even know if I'm
properly answering the question
about, like, how- Well,
Rupert Isaacson: I think you,
you gave me a clue there.
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field, or if you're considering
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field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience
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We work in the saddle
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Helping them create oxytocin in their
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It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
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If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
If you know anything about our
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we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
You said hands-on, and you said care.
Do you think that if y- you were running
a foster care, a, a, a program for
foster care kids with horses, would you
put an emphasis on hands-on care, the
kids doing hands-on care for the horse?
Russell Craig: Oh, for s- for sure.
For sure.
And then, like, myself, like, you know,
it'll be nice if we can put something
together because, like, it'd be hands-on.
I would be hands-on in, in a,
in a sense of, like, with my
experiences and things like that.
It'd be different.
From somebody with no experience,
they can even be a caring person, it's
only a certain level of connection
they can make with, like, the kids
and the horses and things like that.
Like, m- with me being here, I'm getting
more experience with, like, the horses.
I already know what it's like to be,
like, a foster kid, and I neverâ¦
Like, some foster kids still be having
they family and get back with they
family later and all that stuff.
I went through the whole life of,
like, a foster care situation that
wasn't a family kind of a, a thing
and then and then, like, went off
to prison and things like that.
So I have all that in mind when I'm
like, you know, if I was in a situation
where we was, like caring for some, for
some kids, and it'd, it'd just beâ¦
I, I could see it as the, as the
ingredients for something that could
be, like, really, really helpful.
You know what I mean?
And really, like, amazing.
So I would definitely, hands-on is
the, is, is, like, the only way.
Like, and everybody learns 'cause you
gonna get more wise with working with the
horses and then, and, and especially in
that kind of capacity and w- when we, we
using them as, like, therapeutic kind of
a, a a- resource for, like, traumatized
or just troubled kids that need direction.
Mm.
Because it's like, there's
gonna be all this love there.
It's gotta be love.
Like, how, how, how else can
you deal with these animals and
these, and these young people?
So it's gonna be like a labor of
love and, and, and it, you know.
And then it also, like, rewards yourself.
So yeah, hands-on is, isâ¦
There's no other way.
You would have to have.
And then if you can't be there
all the time, that's why it's
good to have a good team, so, you
know, you don't get burnt out.
You can spread yourself around
and just keep it going, you know?
And then you inspire young people.
They grow up, and then the next thing
you know they wanna carry the torch.
But it be starting somewhere.
It start with us.
And then we, you know, my experiences,
the, the good with the bad and the
ugly, you know, it all now has a purpose
where you could be, like, an example for
what not to do or what you couldn't do.
And this is a thing to take, like, take
your mind off of, you know, some of
these kids that's going through, like,
foster care system or even coming from
prison, it be, like, really dark life.
Like, really abusive parents.
I mean, you name it.
You know, like, it could
be all kinds of stuff.
A- a- abuse themselves, like sexual abuse.
You never know what they
done went through, you know?
So it's like- To have an environment
where they could release, where they
could just be, like, not thinking about
it and the horses c- is a good thing.
'Cause you could, like,
try to talk to a kid.
You're like the nice person,
and you talking to somebody
traumatized, it might not be enough.
The, the, the horse is, like, a way
that, like, they could really disconnect.
That's, like, how I connected to art.
It was a real escape.
You know what I'm saying?
So, and it's with me my whole life.
Some guy I, I bumped into I ain't seen
in a long time when I was in New York
getting my things together to ship them
out here to Florida, and I bumpedâ¦
I haven't seen him in years.
Happened to bump into him, and he
was like, "You still doing the art?"
I was like, "I'm gonna be
doing art forever, until I die.
Like, forever, until I'm old man,
like, I'm not gonna never stop art."
I was kind of surprised he
asked me that, you know?
So, you know, that's the opportunity
we have to, like, we could, like, plant
seeds and, and, and allow these kids
to, like, see beyond the situation
that they in now, and the horses
is, like, an amazing way to do that.
And also, like, there's a lot of
environments where that opportunity
is just not even possible.
So for us to have it to be
a possibility is, likeâ¦
And y'all are already doing
that work, so kudos to y'all.
Hats off to y'all.
It's just myself-
Rupert Isaacson: The difficulty, I
think, often for, for people that
are running equestrian things is, of
course, the equestrian environments
are not usually in the inner cities
where many of these kids are.
Although, of course, they also
come out of the suburbs as well.
That said, we do have some projects that
are in the middle of, of the cities.
But so often it's, it's, it's
a, it's a question of ac-
accessibility and transport.
You know, if
somebody is going to be in the
situation that you were in.
Presumably some, but there has to be
some kind of outreach that would allow
the foster family that happens to have
you at that time to know that this
project is there and can be accessed.
How would one best organize that?
You know it from the inside.
The parent, the foster parents you
had and the foster families that,
that were looking after you, do you
think that if there had been outreach
to them for say, an equestrian
service, that they would have done it?
Or do you think they would have
thought, well, that's too much effort.
I don't know if I want to drive all the
way out there to such and such county.
You know, no, I'm not gonna do that.
It's, you know.
H- how, how do we actually
get these kids to the place?
Russell Craig: Well, unfortunately, in my
experience, like, I don't think the, the,
the, and not all of them, 'cause I was in
a number of them, and, and, and they all
kind of had a level of suffered as one.
It was kind of a little bit more
caring, but not, none, I, I wasn't,
I was unfortunate to not ha- to
not have, like, that family kind of
care, 'cause like you, now they would
have to care to go anywhere- Mm-hmm
to want to participate in it.
Some people are not, they're
not, They, they not, they not,
they not, like, open to it.
But, like, for those who are, and I'm not
speaking for everybody, I think, I think
the ones that, that you know, providingâ¦
You know how they say that saying,
if you build it, they will come?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Russell Craig: There are, there are,
like, situations, foster situations
in which they would be like, "Oh,
that's awesome," and be a part of it.
So it'll be all about building it.
It'll be all about putting together
proof of concept, like pitching it to,
like, funders and th- and people who
can help it, like, all run well, give
assistance to people that need to get
there, and just get it started, and then
show, then, you know, show and prove.
Like, let people see how
beneficial it can be.
And then, then after that, s- and
especially w- if you have some,
like, proof of it and examples
or have like a pilot pro- a pilot
program and things like that.
Mm-hmm.
Then it just grows, like, after that.
Then you could-
Rupert Isaacson: That for sure.
But how do I, howâ¦
Let's say I'm gonna do this.
How do I reach that young Russell who's,
happens to be in a foster situation
where the people just don't really care,
and they don't really wanna put in that
effort to get you out to that barn?
How do I get you to that barn?
Russell Craig: Well, also, those
foster home, the foster cares
they have like a, like a c- like
a, like for example, Philadelphia
was Department of Human Services.
So it was, like, people
over the foster parents.
So if, like, so I guess you would go,
you have, you would have to start there.
'Cause like I told you, it'd be some
foster parents that probably wouldn't
be interested in all that stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
But
Russell Craig: if you got to DHS, and in
different cities it's called different
things, and then they suggest to them,
like, "Listen, there's this program that
we're involved in where the kids can go
there and and interact with the horses.
It's therapeutic.
It's this crazy, great program,"
you know, that would be, And then,
then they're, like, over them.
That's where they get they check.
They, they, the foster, foster parents be
getting paid for having the foster kids.
Like, that, like, direction
will help them to get me there.
'Cause I couldn't go there without
the permission of the parents.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: You
Russell Craig: know?
So it would need to be that higher
up so the, the DHS would, would,
would, well, inform the foster parents
that this is something that they
should, like, take advantage of.
Especially, like, if it's, if, if,
if it's set up with DHS as, like, an
option and and then we would likeâ¦
You know, you would, you would meet
with them and you'd be like, "Yo, we
would really like for you to, like,
present this to all the families
and, and that's how it would go.
Rupert Isaacson: We need to present
it as a sort of, "Well, we'll take
these unruly kids off your hands for an
afternoon so, you know, there's something
in it for you, the foster household."
Yeah.
You know?
And
Russell Craig: that could
be a little bit- Something
Rupert Isaacson: like that
⦠Russell Craig: that could be a part
of the pitch, but, like, it don't
gotta be heavy-handed on that.
That could just be- Right
⦠something you could to try to
persuade the parent or whatever.
Or, or not even say it in that way
you said it, like, in a real blunt
way, but, like, just, just like that.
Like you said, like a, like,
"We, we be watching your
kids," or something like that.
Or like, and you get a break,
and it's a great thing.
And then especially when they can come
see it and see it's a great thing.
Like, oh, this is awesome.
You know?
So it's all about that.
I think it's about just presenting theâ¦
properly presenting it to them
as an option is how is how youâ¦
and especially, like, if you had,
like, a video of something that they
could see an, an example, and they'd
be like, "Oh, this is awesome."
And then, then inner city, like,
if when you showing them, like, say
example Wellington or where you be,
like, it's gonna be intriguing 'cause
we be just in the city all the time.
So they'll be likeâ¦
Like, it's, it'll be, it'll, it'll be very
rare that you'll have a kid that's not
interested at all, you know what I mean?
So, or, or even the- No ⦠or even inner
city parents that all they do is work,
and they don't be having this, like,
luxur- I don't, l- I don't wanna say just
luxury or, like, the leisure, like- But
Rupert Isaacson: beautiful
natural environment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Yeah.
This opportunity to just,
like, you know, disconnect.
So I even think it'll be
beneficial to some of the parents.
And when they-
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure ⦠it,
Russell Craig: it could help-
Rupert Isaacson: What about accessibility?
What, what would, what would, what
should one do about transport?
These kids can't get
out there by themselves.
They're, they're dependent upon the
families that they're with to bring them.
Would you go to the DHS and
try to organize and get funded
a transportation option?
Or what w- what do you think-
Russell Craig: I mean, that would
be nice because if you ha- if
you, if you're asking for all the
parents to have to drive them to
locations, especially if they're
gonna be far, that'd be problematic.
That could- Mm ⦠that could
be definitely problematic.
You'll, you'll really slim it
down to only a few that would be
willing to do it and able to do it.
So if it was established that there's
a transportation option, that would
be, like, I think that would be
really, like, almost necessary.
Like, so with funding, that all
goes into, like, you're gonna
definitely need funding period.
Like, you're gonna need funding,
period, like, for all kinds of stuff.
So all of those things are taken care of.
And then, and then that's another
thing of how it would be successful
because when you're, when you're coming
to these people, the DHS and and the
actual parents and things like that,
and everything's in order, like this
is fully funded and all that, it's no
real headache, like, on top o- on top
because it was like it's starting with
this good idea and how great it is
and how, like, beneficial it could be.
But also, like, no headache of, like,
like, everything's took care of for
everybody is, is how it would be.
I mean, so you would have to get funding.
Rupert Isaacson: One of the
things which we did in the early
years with our organization is
we did this without insurance.
And n- now I look at it and think we
must have been crazy, but we were crazy.
We would take horses into
city parks in Austin, Texas.
We would just show up with a horse
trailer, and we'd unbox four horses.
And we'd just start working with kids.
Or maybe we'd contact one family,
and that family would show
up with three other families.
You know, and we did this all over
the city, and we did this on the
university campus, and we did this onâ¦
And we actually found that we had no
problem getting permissions for it.
In retrospect, we probably should
have had better insurance, but we were
lucky that we never had an incident.
But I often wonder, I'm often intrigued
by why that often doesn't happen.
D- i- is, is, do you think that would
also have merit if, if the people who are
running these programs that are outside
the city bring the horses into the city
where the kids are, where the access is
easy, big city parks, that sort of thing,
sta- you know, historic sites, university
campuses, college campuses, whatever,
schools, set the horses up there and
run the pr- run the sessions from there.
Do you think that would work?
Russell Craig: I mean, you, you
could answer that better than me
because you, 'cause that's awesome
that you was doing that, that y'all
was just showing up like that.
'Cause it's like certain places
you need permits or, like,
something, like, or, or a lot.
Or you could go into environments
that's, like, probably not the safest.
And like how you were saying-
Mm-hmm ⦠it was good that
y'all didn't have insurance and
and, and things didn't go right.
I mean, I mean, things didn't go wrong.
You didn't have any incidents.
So that was very, very blessed
situation 'cause I would think that
you would wanna, you would wanna have-
Excuse me, I be like up painting
all night and all this stuff.
You know what I mean?
But no, like, no, I
think it would be better.
That's awesome how you started and then
that you have that kind of experience.
So just imagine yourself-
Mm-hmm ⦠with more support.
'Cause you already have that
drive, that goal, and that passion
to be like, "Man, we just gonna
do it," and then did it before.
It's how we got it started.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Russell Craig: But I think at this
point you should definitely need,
you, you, you should definitely
have more support, like a support.
And do the same thing you do, but just
with support and having certain things
taken care of to where as though there,
you know, there's no even, no, no room for
any, like, things to go crazy or whatever.
Like, and it could just be like a,
a, a, a pretty, And I don't wanna
say perfect, but like pretty solid.
Everything's checked, you know?
And just, just to make it
like a more organized thing.
Mm-hmm.
And I think with the experience and the
hurdles you already jumped over you're not
starting from like the beginning point.
So it's all about like taking it to
the next level and then being ready
for these kids, like, for these
services to be like, you know, just
there for them, easy, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, the,
the, the accessibility seems to
me to be the, the main thing.
One ofâ¦
When we were ta- a few sentences ago,
or a few sort of moments ago, we were
talking about, you know, I d- I, I
wouldn't be arrogant enough to think
that exposure to one of our programs
would necessarily keep a kid out of jail.
But one of the things that one might
hope would be that let's say they did
end up in that situation as you did,
that maybe there would be memories
that they could have to say, "Well,
there are other possibilities in life.
I did have these other experiences
that were super positive.
What if I was to go back towards those?
What if I was to put my mind
there and walk in that direction?"
You, you would hope that some
of those experiences would
resonate through darker times.
Once you yourself hit the criminal
justice system, now, I, I know that
you didn't go in for violent crime.
You know, it was a series of
drug-related crimes that sort of mounted
up and then r- hit the jail time.
But nonetheless, once you're
in there, it's a violent world.
Of course, the streets are a
violent world, but prison is
an even more violent world.
You wereâ¦
Just going away from horses
and back to you for a moment.
You were in there as an artist.
You, you, you, you weren't
interested in the macho culture.
I mean, you're a big dude.
I've met you.
And you come off the streets.
I'm sure you can look after yourself, but
that's not really the point I'm making.
It's, it's, it's such a, a violent world
in there, and if you are not interested
in participating in macho or gang culture
or whatever, and you want to be an artist
in that situation, how do you survive?
I mean, how do you survive the, the,
the, the prejudice within the system?
How do you make that work for yourself
with your fellow inmates and so on?
Russell Craig: Well, for me, in
my situation, 'cause it's, like,
unique with each person because,
like, it's, it's all about how you
gonna- React to these environments.
Like, how are you gonna behave
there and things like that.
Then also some prisons are,
like, more intense than others.
So that's also a factor.
But for the most part of my experiences,
and I did a number of years in jail, like,
when you mind your business, like you in
your own world, like, they respect it.
Oh, and it's like this
respect for artists.
Like, artists are, like, held
high there because it's one of
the only things that you provide,
like, a service in the inside.
And then it's like, so technically
you're not supposed to run a business.
You're not allowed to run a business.
It's one of the things that you can
get in trouble and wind up going in the
hole for if they wanna shut you down for
whatever business that you got going.
So by me selling portraits, I mean,
you're really not supposed to do
it, but it's like, you know, it's
guards that be like, when you like
a good artist and they see your art.
And there be times where they beâ¦
And they not supposed to engage in any
business with you, but it be like guards
wanting paintings and things like that.
I see.
When you good like that, like they they be
like, everybody be wanting a part of it.
So it's like, it kind of puts
you in this realm, like nobody
really mess with the artist.
And then they come to you to do paintings
and things for them because it's ways
that they can connect with their family,
give gifts during birthdays and stuff like
that Because you do some kind of craft.
It's like I do like these weavings
that be incorporated into my painting.
They come from my prison experience, where
we would take commissary disregarded like
packages and things like that, like empty
chip bags, empty noodle bags, and make
these woven together like picture frames,
and I incorporate that into like my art.
And then like, like some guy, he
might can't paint, but he make the
picture frames real nice and put the
pictures up so other inmates will
buy the frames and put their family
pictures in it and hang it, you know,
in they cell and things like that.
So, it, it, it really kind of justâ¦
It helped.
It helped me through, through not
only just mentally and like on
a, in a personal level, but just
like navigating in the prison.
Like, it's, it's like how
you function in there.
That's how I was able to do it,
and it also had me have the vision.
I started having the ideas and
I truly believed in myself that
I could be a artist getting out.
So then that connects, goes back to
the horses and the thing you talking
about is like how this program and
things you're doing and the work
with the horses can definitely be an
impression in the minds of likeâ¦
'Cause it's like so many kids and
things don't be having no opportunities.
They don't be, be exposed to things.
So like a proper, properly structured
program where you providing the
horses for a therapeutic kind of a
component, but then it also should
have with like funding or whatever,
the structure and the planning to
have something that's like lasting.
And like leading the kids of like, okay,
once you out of this program, once you
get to like a independent living kind of
a, a, a stage, you know, we put into your
head positivity and direction and things
like that, and then have the resources in
which they kind of could send them off.
Not like a thing that's temporary.
You could have like a thing where
it's like, great, they come and
it's a great time and it's like
nice and it's safe for a moment, but
then send them back into the wild.
I seen and have worked with programs like
that in Philadelphia that was like that.
It's set up and then you only giving the
kids six months of a, a lot of them will
be like, "Well, what do we do after this?"
Then a lot of them will wind
up either dead or back in jail.
'Cause it was like a real intenseâ¦
It was a program for kids that was
really deep in the streets, like doing
violent stuff, ri- robbing people,
getting caught with guns, assault.
You know, all the like kinda heavy
crimes, and these are young folks.
Juveniles.
Like, like young young.
And it's like, it was like the, the
program was like temporary and they
would like teach them like carpentry.
You had me as the art teacher.
And they had these different components
to the program, but then it was
so lim- it was so limited in time,
it didn't, it didn't, you knowâ¦
And then it didn't have anything
that, like, really helped.
I ain't gonna say it didn't have anything.
They, they had, like, a mock job
thing that they had at the end where
they would, like, try to set them
up employment and things like that.
But I think it coulda been especially
for the kinda funding that they was
getting y- every year, like, they
coulda came up with something that
was, like, really, like, helped place.
'Cause, 'cause sometimes some kids
get placed in a good thing, but
it wasn't the overall program.
Like, it wasn't like that's
what happens with this program.
Like, it'd be like these, these success
stories, and, like, how I was ableâ¦
'Cause I was in that program,
but I quickly evolved to artist
assistant, then lead artist in
Philadelphia Mural Arts program.
And then went out
Rupert Isaacson: to New York.
How, how, w- whatâ¦
If you were running that program then,
and you had access to the good funding
that you said that they had, what
would you have done differently to-
Russell Craig: I wouldâ¦
You, you, you take what you got that
works, but then you, you add upon.
There's always room for improvement.
Mm.
That's a saying that I go by.
So it's like, you got what you got going.
Mm.
Then it's like, okay, the next
funding is coming in next year,
and you there for some time.
So if I'm the guy that's running it
where I got a team, we, we, youâ¦
That's what the meetings be about when
you have, like, a, a, a, a staff meetings
and things, and they be like, you know.
And, and it's a good question you
asking, because it's like when you
seen the bad things that was happening,
and then they didn't have noâ¦
They didn'tâ¦
Like, it, nobody even either cared or
it just, it was treated like a normal
thing when these kids is winding up.
One time, it was on a Friday.
By Monday, five of the
kids was, like, gone.
Like, I think, like, four
in jail, one got murdered.
So y- you got a class of 15, five
of them was gone over the weekend.
So it'd be like, it'd be stuff like that
to be like, okay, when the weekend, when,
when there's not programming going on.
And we talking about the, an intense kind
of appro- Like, you know, I told you these
kids was, like, from the street streets.
Like, deep in the streets.
So you would wanna try that.
Once they're in a program,
they need to be sheltered.
Like, sh- like really set up
to be like, "Okay, you're here.
You'reâ¦
Like, you, you accepted it, signed here.
You wanna participate in this?
We need your participation.
Well, you're here, and, and
we got everything to make sure
you good while you're here."
And then, then, and then in the long
run for however the program runs,
that it directs you into not back
into the streets where you were.
Mm-hmm.
You need to be going, like, either some
kinda college, community college, whatever
kinda opportunities that we can, like,
funnel you to, job placement or whatever.
Help you at the moment, and then
also help you le- lead you off.
And if you decide to leave that in order,
whatever, and go back, that'd be on you.
You know what I mean?
But I done seen situations
where it's like they didn't even
give them the opportunity, the
chance to, like, really make it.
It be like a temporary thing.
Hey, people take those photos, and
we're doing this good thing for
people to get more funding, and it be,
like, for the benefit of the folks.
And then I've been in a, in, in situations
recently where it's like there's a
lot of that going on, where it's like
people having these things, these
programs, but it's like, it's not for
the benefit of who they say it's for.
And that's unfortunate.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I think that, you know, I, I,
I do know that this can happen.
I, I think most people that are running
these sorts of programs are running
them with coming from the right place.
The, the question is, you know,
how do you create that shelter
that you're talking about?
Because the environment, this is the,
always the difficulty, and this k-
I think comes back to this question
of accessibility, say, for the kids
from the foster system as well.
The environment that we would
bring them into in a, in a horse
barn is not the environment that
they're gonna go back to to live in.
They just are not going to.
And if they're coming from the streets
do do, do these, do these programs
need to have some sort of campus?
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Is that kinda
Rupert Isaacson: what we're talking about?
Yeah, I
Russell Craig: was kinda thinking, I was
thinking that as you was saying that.
Mm-hmm.
I was like, I was thinking
that as you was saying that.
You was like, when they come to the
barn, I was like, yeah, they need to be,
like, really, like, never going back.
Not no like at the end
of the day or, like-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Russell Craig: or the
weekend they going back.
Because, like, oh, no, another thing
that be very problematic, when the
other kids or whatever be from the
hood and they hear about that they
in a program, it make them a target.
They don't even, they be doing super
good, just like, "Oh, you better."
They look for anything to, like,
be like, "You think you better."
And then don't let them post on the
ins- on their Instagram or something.
They on some horses.
Or anything different than the hood shit.
They, they, they become, like,
it's like this bad energy
crab in a barrel kind of aâ¦
So they would need to be separated.
And then with, with the campus, you
have the therapeutic things going on
with, like, the horses and stuff like
that, but just, like, programming
to where as though they're, likeâ¦
And that would really help their
minds, like, get, like, 'cause
you're really now separated from the
situation, but you're not in a prison.
You n- you, you haven't been
sent to some juvenile place.
You've been sent to a place that's helping
you you know, get your life together,
get your life on track, and hopefully
to go on to do great things in life.
And that'd be a great pro- But- We,
Rupert Isaacson: we could get-
So we're brainstorming here.
How do you, how do you then,
what, what do, how do some kids
end up in this campus- It need,
it need- ⦠and other kids not?
Like-
Russell Craig: It need funding.
Funding.
' Rupert Isaacson: Cause of
the- Well, funding for sure.
But even with the funding, let's say,
let's say the administration changed and
all sorts of funding came flooding into
the philanthropic areas of government.
Then you need buildings ⦠we have,
we have had that situation before.
Let's say it's the streets of Philly.
There's still gonna be kids that
would access the program and kids
that would not access the program.
How does, how does one deal
with that kind of unfairness?
Russell Craig: I don't know.
Like, you can't, you, it, it,
you can't, it can't be like
you can't control everything.
Mm-hmm.
So you just gotta build it.
We, you would just have to build it.
I had put the emphasis on the funding
because you would, you know, you
can have all kinds of great ideas,
but if you don't have, like, the
means of making it put, like put it
together and put it together strongly-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Russell Craig: and that's,
dude, you gotta put it together.
You gotta build it.
You know what I'm saying?
And then after that,
just run it accordingly.
And then also having the proper
staff, people that really canâ¦
Not just anybody that
just wanna take a job.
You have caring people
that's behind it or whatever.
You build it, and that's just how itâ¦
And then you promote it,
then you get out there.
You know what I'm saying?
And then, like I said, examples.
Y'all been doing what y'all been
doing for quite some time, but then
you could have, like, a pilot program
and then have- Mm ⦠like some kinda
of video, like, like Will and them.
I do a piece or I got a
thing coming up in Aspen.
They did a video.
I I, I proposed for doing public art
in in, in Miami, which is, you know,
an hour and a half from Wellington,
and they gave, they did a video.
I talked about things I did in the
past, my experience in over the years
with Mural Arts of Philadelphia,
and I did a number of murals and got
award for it and stuff like that.
So I explained in the video what
it is, and then they can go look
me up and see, Google me and stuff.
So what I'm saying is giving an example
of, like, when you would do the same
thing, that's how you would do it.
You just build it, show- You know
Rupert Isaacson: what's coming to my mind?
What's coming to myâ¦
I'm, I'm sort of wrestling with
this idea of campuses and what
goes on on these campuses and
where are these campuses and so on.
What comes into my mind weirdly, just
as we're brainstorming here, is green
jobs rewilding, forest planting, market
gardening, land reclamation reclamation
of shitty industrial sites to make
them back into, like, parks and public
spaces and these sorts of things.
Which I'm always surprised that we're not
seeing government putting money into this
type of green job creation in the US.
Y- you do see it in other countries.
And there have been times in the US
when the government did do things like
this, notably back in the '30s when,
you know, when you go to state parks,
for example, and national parks, and you
often see these very beautiful, rather
whimsical buildings and all the trails
and sort of staircases up the mountain.
They were all built by, many of them
were built by people who were unemployed
and destitute who then joined a
program that the government had there
to the, the, the something corps.
It'll come to my mind.
Someone listening to it will
put it in the comments below.
But we haven't seen anything
like this for an awful long time.
But it seems to me that the scale
of the problem that we're talking
about here is so great that it
almost requires something like that.
But a pilot project would be,
of course, a good way to start.
But w- what springs to my mind is, yeah,
what's going on on this campus, and how
is this campus different, appreciably
different to the environment of the hood?
It needs nature, right?
It can't just be a horse farm.
It's got to be, I think, more than that.
There has to be forestry.
There has to be restoration of land.
There has to be this type of thing
where there is potentially job, you
know, that is lasting that could, you
could then go into the forest service.
You could then go into, you know- Yeah
agriculture.
You could go into other sorts of
things that, yeah, that would also-
Exactly ⦠not take you back to the city.
Russell Craig: That's exactly.
'Cause even if theyâ¦
I mean, I like that 'cause it's like
e- they would have that opportunity
of the- being trained that they could
work in that, that area if they choose.
Mm.
Or if it teach them work ethic
that they can put into any
kind of interest that they got.
It would be, like, a good
training, like, place for them.
And I really like, like, how that sound.
And then keeping them busy.
Like, when you, when you busy, there's
mu- not much room for foolishness.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Russell Craig: So that,
that'd be, that'd beâ¦
Y- you making me, like, dream 'cause
it's like it l- I could see it.
Like, it could be great.
But then also, like, when you talk
about, like, a, a place for them
to be, like, a, Like a place and
I would like to think about like
where, where would that would happen.
And it'd be like a lot of people would be
having that kind of, you know, properties
and, and space and things like that.
Mm-hmm.
And hopefully we could like part-
partner with them and use their-
Mm-hmm ⦠instead of trying to
like get up so much funding that
we had to buy some kind of place.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely, yeah.
No, you'd need existing
properties to be made available.
Russell Craig: Nice if- ⦠it will
be people that we could pitch it to
that might be interested, you know?
And then it could probably grow
later, you know what I'm saying?
But it will be nice to-
Rupert Isaacson: Something
which I've, I'veâ¦
This, this is a little dream I've
had for a long time, is you know,
schools, particularly schools in urban
America, look like prisons, right?
When you, when you drive past them,
you're like, "That looks like a prison."
It's this thing behind
this big chain link fence.
It's these concrete buildings, and you see
the kids getting shuffled from here, you
see the kids getting shuffled to there.
And you go inside them
and, Jesus, you know?
And one of the things I've often thought
is if not only is that an environment
that creates a certain kind of despair
in, in the mind and the heart, but
it, they're also concrete islands
that create- Environmental as well as
social problems for the neighborhood.
So if the kids are all unhappy,
they're coming out of that
school and maybe doing crime.
If the, but the concrete itself is
putting out a lot of heat and a lot
of physical discomfort, and one of the
things I've often dreamed of is what
if those schools became green islands?
What if they became
cooling islands for the
What if they became forests?
And then ins- and then they, they have
a cooling effect on the neighborhood
socially as well as physically,
rather than a heating effect on the
neighborhood socially and physically.
And as we're talking, you know, that dream
has never really gone away for me, and
I think I had it even as a child because
I grew up actually not in the country.
I had a horsey aunt, but my parents
were very urban and I went to school
in the middle of the financial
district of London, which is
about as concrete as you can get.
It's like heavy, harsh concrete.
And they were rebuilding it after the war.
You know, I'm quite old now, so when
I was a kid a lot of the financial
districts that there in London
wasn't there 'cause it had been
knocked flat by bombs in the war.
So there was a lot of heavy,
heavy construction going on, of
these huge skyscrapers going up.
So just noise and concrete
and dust and heat, and you're
going to school through this.
And I remember just longing for nature.
Longing for nature.
Longing for something green.
I'm wondering if, yeah, if th- this
idea of sort of bringing the horses
in to the schools and the hoods
is, may- maybe it has to actually
be the school buildings itself.
Maybe, maybe it has to start there.
I don't know, what do you think?
Russell Craig: I mean, a lot of,
a lot of work there 'cause you
talking about with the schools.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm.
' Russell Craig: Cause we can't
just, just show up to these places.
We have to, like, put a, put some work in.
It would have to be some work put in.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, you need buy-in.
You, you need aâ¦
Again, it comes down to pilot projects.
I think you need a couple of schools
Russell Craig: that- Yeah, yeah.
I was about to goâ¦
You took the words out my mouth.
I was about to say you gotta-
Yeah ⦠you have to have an even
a, a, a proof of concept- Mm ⦠and
show folk, 'cause that'll help.
And then, a- and, and with time,
with the success and with time of
a little track record, then that's
how it becomes a little easier when
you when you, when you present.
And then, then you leave it in the hands
of, like, how much do they wanna be a
part of it, or they wanna do it, you know?
'Cause, Mm-hmm ⦠once youâ¦
yourself.
Like, no, this is, thisâ¦
We do this.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, and then itâ¦
And then you leave it to their
hands, but you make it easier
for people that's, like, either
for it or, like, in the middle.
They'll, they'll lean towards
it because it's like we already,
like, showed you that this can be
done, and then it's a good thing.
You know what I mean?
So-
Rupert Isaacson: One, one of the reasons
I like to bat ideas around like this on,
on the show in these conversations is,
you know, it's very easy, particularly
with the, the horse world, to get very
focused on the horse because they're very
time-consuming to keep, and horse people
tend to be a bit autistic that way anyway.
We're very horse-obsessed.
But what I think we often need to
think a little bit broader, and
because, you know, not everyone that
comes out to an equestrian program,
for example, feels the horse.
But what they can do is
they can feel nature.
They can feel that freedom.
They can feel the sense of nurturing a
piece of land or growing vegetables or
looking after the chickens and the dogs.
Itâ¦
Y- y- you never know what is the
thing that's gonna speak to them.
So if we're not thinking a little bit
beyond the horse, or at least what do
we do with these beautiful environments
that the horses are in that is greater
than the horse, then I, I f- I feel that
we're, we're not utilizing our resources
as, as well as we perhaps could be.
You know, w- let's just go
to y- your, back to your
experience in, in prison again.
Y- so you saidâ¦
I was intrigued by you saying that
there's a respect for artists there, and
that I, that I wouldn't have expected.
So that was new to me.
D- do you feel that-
If that sort of idea of nature
And the mind and working with
nature were brought into prisons.
Do you think that, not just the horse.
Do you th- what sort of effect
do you think that would have?
And then the other question for me
is you were lucky to some degree in
that you had a passion and a talent.
You knew you wanted to be an artist.
You had that going on.
That was already moving inside you.
But you must have come across a lot
of people in prison who did not have,
did not know what their life's passion
was, who were kind of lost that way.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
What about those people?
How does one help them?
Russell Craig: Now, that's a really
good question because, like, when we
was talking about helping the kids,
that's a little different 'cause they're
young, you know, and they're get-
they're at a place in which they could
be steered towards that negativity-
Mm-hmm ⦠or that kind of life where
they're in prison or, or, like, or
feeling like there's no turning back.
But you see, once you having adults
that's, like, in prison and, and stuck
in that mindset is a different thing.
And it's not easy to try toâ¦
'Cause it's those groups, like, it'sâ¦
This is a really good question.
There's people in the prison,
it's like they be, like, in these
groups, and they, like, they're
stuck in that, like, gang, prison.
The negative thing is, like, is a part
of them to the point where some of
them feel like that's what it is, and
it's like, it's like you talk about
anything other than that, it's lame.
And then, then we talk about horses
and stuff, that's next level.
That's not even, like, you not even
talking about you need to change
your life around and be positive.
They hear that all the time.
You know what I mean?
But, like, it'll be so beyond their
comprehension of, like, I mean,
or, or so unrelatable that, that
some people, like, are so far gone.
But not all, though, 'cause you have some
that if it was some kind of way how toâ¦
And, and when you said and connecting
with nature, in prison, the ones that
I was in, it would, it would be no
way that that would happen right away.
There's no way they would go to prison and
they would have some kind of thing thatâ¦
They have, like, this level system
and, like, say you was there and
you had all this good behavior then
you would be access- you, you would
be eligible to, like, work on the
outside unit and things like that.
So I could see that.
And I believe in states they be
having things like that where
they working with even horses.
I heard about programs like that.
But it just in, in Pennsylvania and,
and 'cause I was locked up Pennsylvania.
You know, lived in New York but
I never was locked up there.
But I hear that the states that they,
they have, like, a program where they
work for the horses, and I'm sure
it works off of that that, that your
good behavior kind of a level system.
'Cause if you get into fights and
get caught, 'cause you can get in a
fight but you gotta not get caught.
You gotta fight, like, in a
secret area and things like that.
I had gotten into a few,
and that'd be the thing.
That's how you try to do it.
And then sometime you know, things
will just break out in the open.
So when they grab you and the guards
grab you, put you in a hole, and it's
like, you know, you, you've been caught-
officially in like a fight or something
like that, that would make you not
eligible for, like, anything p- like
positive programs and stuff like that.
But for, for the ones that the,
the possibilities of where it could
happen, yeah, that'd be great.
And especially dudes that been in for all
that concrete and things for years, they
would love to, You know, there's a lot of
prisons where you don't even see a tree.
You be in, you be in in jail for so
many years you don't even see a tree.
I was in this one prison where
you couldn't see the sunset.
The wall, the wall was so big out
there, the, the wall that keep us in.
And that had me so stressed when
I was like, "Yo, you can't even
see the sunset or any trees?"
When I went to the yard and I didn't
go out yar- the yard for a year and
this this, this Latin gentleman was
telling me that, that, like, he was
like, "Yo, you need to go outside.
You shouldn't, like, justâ¦"
I told him about the wall and the
reason why I didn't go and he was
like, "You shouldn't do that to
yourself," like, and that's the kind
of thing that might, can damage you
'cause you just, like, always inside.
So yeah, like a connection to nature.
But I would suggest that c- it would
be like that anyway, but I think
that's a good thing that, you know,
it would be, it would be some kind
of way you had to earn that program.
You know what I'm saying?
Or, or some kind of component in
which the inmates are, are, like
being brought back into, like, nature.
And I think that would be really, that's,
like, a good idea because it's like- When
you coming from the city, that's all that,
you know, that's concrete and jungle.
You know, prisons that's still in
the, in the, in the, in the concrete.
And to, like, have somebodyâ¦
So not only putting them in nature, you
would need, like, a guide person, a person
to help them get in tune with the nature.
'Cause that, that came to mind earlier as
some other things we was talking about.
I was like, you need, like,
a spiritual, like, person.
And I'm, and it, it don't,
it don't matter who theyâ¦
It could be different kinds
of methods of spirituality.
But I think that needs to be,
like also, like, optional and help
them to really, like, get into a
deeper understanding about things.
And, and, and that's
how the change happens.
'Cause some people are just bredded
to be a certain way, and that's
how they go that wrong direction.
'Cause of the DNA- Do we need
Rupert Isaacson: that in
the foster kid programs too?
Do we need that spiritual component
Russell Craig: there?
Absolutely.
I've been had that thought.
But I told you all I ain't wanna
get too weird- Mm-hmm ⦠for folk.
But, like, yeah, I think it's important.
It's, like, really important to get
in tune because that connects you to
nature, that connects you to the horses.
You have to have that kind
of spiritual understanding.
And f- and for those who don't be
having that, that, it, it can be
problematic to be disconnected.
But-
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's one of
the problems that I've, I've encountered
living in the US for many years, is
that a lot of the spirituality that's
available in the mainstream, of course,
comes through sort of various Protestant
denominations of Christianity that
are often very anti-ethical to nature.
There's often this idea of,
you know, man's domination over
nature, and somehow being Christian
means concreting nature over and
putting up a McDonald's, you know?
Which has always been crazy to me.
And then I recently had some conversations
with a couple of- church priests that
I knew saying, "Well, why is this?
I mean, w- why aren't
you stewarding creation?
Why are you destroying creation?
Like, I'm sorry, but you are.
Like, why?"
And I got some really interesting answers.
And I found out that there was actually
a quite big movement in the church
now, which I was quite heartened
by, to bring it back to nature.
They, much more so than I thought,
and particularly some groups I've
been involved with in Michigan.
And I'm wondering if it's something like
that that one needs to look towards.
Because, you know, if one's looking
towards of Eastern traditions like
Buddhism or whatever or ⦠You
know, I've been exposed to a lot
of shamanic practice, obviously,
out in Africa and places.
But you can't bring that
into mainstream America.
There's also Native America,
which, where those practices are
alive and well and never died.
But for some odd reason, they
are n- never allowed to be within
the institutions, it seems.
So it seems to always have
to come back to Christianity.
But if it, if it is gonna do that, then
w- I think we need to look for that
environmental aspect of Christianity,
which up until now has not been there.
You know, it, it, it's very interesting
to me when people talk, talk of themselves
as Christians and then you're like, "Well,
what about stewarding the creation?"
And then why isn't that the conversation?
So would it be something like that
if, at the foster kid level, and then
perhaps on into the prison level?
I'm, I'm just trying to envisage.
You need those spiritual leaders, but you
need spiritual leaders that are going to
be accepted by the authorities You know,
so it, they'd have to come from within
that sort of church structure, right?
Russell Craig: But no,
because like when I- No?
When I'm, when I'm speaking
of spirituality, I'm not
talking about Christianity.
I'm not a Christian.
You know what I mean?
So like I was talking more of all
those tr- those traditional ones you
was talking about when you speaking
of like Native and, and, and the other
examples that you did- Would those
Rupert Isaacson: be allowed
in, in the prison environment?
Russell Craig: Not about,
it's not about what's allowed.
I think- Okay
I think it needs, I think it needs to
happen, and it needs ⦠And like, and
you don't gotta force it to nobody that
this is what you need to believe in.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Russell Craig: It's all about
us doing the research and, and
presenting to the kids and teaching
them like that this is a thing.
Th- it's just like if we was planning
I'll give you an example, and this is a
good example because recently we went to,
it's a garden that we that we go to here.
There's a lady, she has a really nice
garden and allows us to, to ⦠She
said, "You can come and take anything
you want at any time you want," right?
So one day we went there,
and she had a gardener there.
And then, and then she was so happy that
we were there, and she was explaining
all this stuff to us and some stuff
that we don't know nothing about.
Like, I don't know nothing
about gardening, like,
and, and, and like growing.
So I know you put a seed in and you
water it, it can grow, but there's
like things that you should know.
It's knowledge that you need to know
about the soil and every- it's like all
this stuff that she was breaking down
just in the, the, the short time we was
with her, 'cause she didn't even stay
the whole time when we was picking stuff.
She kind of introduced us to the areas
of like this is here, that's there, and
she was giving us all these details.
She was very knowledgeable.
So if we are knowledgeable about like
certain spirituality aspects in which we
know to be like proven to be beneficial,
then it, then it, I don't think it
needs to be any per- permission because
we're not pushing any idealog- like,
like, like religions in which they need
to follow at all and things like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Like it could be a-
You're not talking about, yeah, services
and spiritual ceremonies necessarily.
Russell Craig: Yeah, yeah, I'm not
talking about anything that's like forced.
I'm talking about
like, ⦠What's a good example?
Like we, like we talking about
getting in tune with nature.
So you know, people m- mentioning
grounding and things like that.
And then and the benefits of it.
You know, taking your shoes off, putting
your feet in the grass and connecting to
the earth or placing your hand on a tree.
And then giving them the knowledge
of, like, how is it beneficial?
Where's the facts that this is beneficial
to your body and things like that.
Mm.
And just giving them that.
And that's helping them get in tune,
and then we giving them the knowledge
behind it and things like that.
And it can be like a practice.
I think it would be, like, necessary.
It would go with everything.
It would go with, like, being around
the horses- Mm ⦠being in the
nature, being around the trees,
but then also connecting with them.
That's probably, that's
not probably not in onâ¦
And then even in, and you mentioned
Christianity, it is a whole lot of
wisdom in Chri- I'm not a Christian.
Oh, there is.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I'm not knocking the Christ
Russell Craig: message
Rupert Isaacson: at all.
Yeah.
There's a whole lot
Russell Craig: of wisdom.
There's a whole lot of wisdom in there.
So if we can, you know, pull
something from the Bible that's,
like, real, and you give it to them.
Like, 'cause I do that.
I quote the Bible a lot.
You know what I'm saying?
Mm.
He who's without sin cast the first stone.
It be a whole lot of people that be
judgemental about another person but
be, be, like, jacked up themselves.
Mm.
So how could you be so judgemental
and want to, like, always
be critical of this person?
And and you be doing
worse stuff, you know?
So-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Russell Craig: it be stuff like
that, you know what I mean?
So, so yeah.
It's, and, and, and it don't gotta be,
like set up at like, hey, this is church.
'Cause it could be- Mm-hmm ⦠you
could have a cult kind of a thing.
And it's kind of like this thing,
and you have to believe this thing.
And hey, everybody gather around.
Like a more natural environment of,
like- Sure ⦠we giving all positivity.
And, and whatever knowledge you
got, you share it with the group.
And that, and that can go for everybody.
It be times whenâ¦
I'll give you an example.
My daughter, she's 11 now
and coming to visit soon.
She she she live in North Carolina.
And one day she was like, "Yeah,
could you get me these paint markers?"
She was, like, eight.
I think she was, like, eight.
And they was, like, professional
paint mark- They was like, they
wasn't like little kid markers.
And I be using them.
And it was, like, for her, for her toâ¦
She introduced them to me.
And, and then they be coming in really
handy because they go over the painting.
Like, certain markers won't go over,
like, paintings I do, but these
are actual paint markers that can
be incorporated into what I do.
And I'm like, oh, that's awesome.
I bought them for her, but
when I went to get them, I
said, "Oh, I'll try these out."
And and, and she, if it wasn't
for her bringing them to my
attention at eight years old, I
wouldn't even know that they exist.
And you know how many
times they come in handy?
They come in so handy.
I was like, damn.
Like, she, she added a, a, another medium
to my practice as a eight-year-old.
I don't even know how she
knew about these markers.
Paint markers, professional marker.
They're not little kid markers.
So, so it be stuff like that.
You just never know.
So as a community, they
say each one teach one.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
If you are thenâ¦
Okay, so let's say, Within prisons, the,
if there was some opportunity for horses,
and as you say, there are horse programs.
Unfortunately, some of them have been
shut down recently, but there have
been horse programs, notably in, in
Arizona and places like that with,
with prison programs with horses.
And we're gonna actually talk, have a guy
on the show called Randy Helm quite soon
who pioneered that, and it'll be very
interesting to hear what he has to say.
But then let's talk about
when people come out.
So I'm quite used to working with the,
the ⦠Or, or, or let's say the, the
closest I c- I can imagine in my current
work to this is we work with veterans,
but we also work with active service.
So when we work, for example, with the
German army, the people that we're working
with are quite often deployed, and often
special forces deployed, but they can't
talk about what they are going to do
'cause the missions are secret, so they're
not allowed to talk to their families.
So the families are, to some
degree, estranged from each other.
So we put together camps where they
come together and, okay, we're not
talking about what you're doing out
there, but we can talk about other
things and facilitate other things and
have these times in nature with horses.
And then, of course, when people
come out of the military particularly
out of active service, they usually,
if they've been deployed in combat,
then there's almost always trauma.
And of course you don't have
to go to combat to have trauma.
There's plenty of ways
to get trauma in life.
So and then we also work with a lot of
first responders who are going with,
through trauma all the time, you know.
Those are the guys who are out there,
the fire department, you know, scraping
the brains off the freeway every Saturday
night when everyone's, you know, smashing
up their cars and k- dying, you know.
And these people who are out there
cleaning up the mess and helping
everybody out are trying not to
disappear into a vodka bottle or,
you know, into methamphetamine
because they're dealing with a lot of
depression and, and so on and so on.
So when people are coming out of prison,
I should imagine that it's, to some
degree, must be similar to some degree.
And there must be ⦠Correct
me if I'm wrong.
Is there an initial euphoria of, "Oh
my God, I'm out, this is amazing"?
And then is there almost immediately
a sort of a, a, a, a plunge of
a, "Now what am I gonna do?"
And you know, h- how do, how ⦠What's
the best way to deal with this?
Russell Craig: I would say for,
for that another good question,
but that's like, it- that differs
with with, with every individual.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Russell Craig: Now, a lot of, a
lot of folks come out and, and,
and there's gonna be some joy that,
that you leave in, like, prison.
But then there be some that be, like,
really 'cause, 'cause you was like,
do it, like, go true for everybody.
No, I don't think, 'cause there's some
people who has, had, who has support.
So they get out, they happy, they
celebrated, they're re- they're received.
People, they, you know, and, like,
and help them get back on track.
See, me, I didn't, for me being a
foster care care person, I didn't
have that family kind of structure.
Had nothing waiting for me
I had to stay in a halfway house, like,
way longer than you were supposed to.
A halfway house is, like, somewhere
you would go 'cause you're halfway.
They call it halfway houses.
You're halfway in prison,
halfway out, back into society.
So you go into the halfway house first,
and that's where you gotta findâ¦
They give you a certain amount
of time to find a job or you'll
be a violator, and you go back
to prison and things like that.
So you'll have some dudes that dread it,
that be like, "Oh, what I'm gonna do?"
'Cause they don't be having
no job set up no way to, like,
feed themselves or whatever.
And then, then you, then you be on
parole, which would al- have all
these, It's like a system that's
set up for you to go back to prison.
It's really crazy, really unfortunate-
Mm ⦠because it's s- all these
rules and things, and it'sâ¦
And then you can violate
parole and be back in prison.
And parole is something that if you get
sentenced to 10 years, or five to 10,
meaning five years in prison, you're
eligible for be on parole, meaning you
do five years on parole out in society.
But if you do anything violated, you go
back to prison for that remaining five.
So you could do a whole 10
years in prison if you can't
find job placements and stuff.
So you be having some people who be
not so happy about leaving prison
because they don't be having nothing
left for them, and then they also
be having, like, the streets.
Same stuff.
So you have now not only is you going
back to the streets, now you have
all this, the, this, this conditions
on you that you can go back to st-
jail even quicker than you did.
And then you gotta keep ca- checking in.
You gotta do piss tests and
things like can't do any drugs.
They say you can't be in an area with
other im- like, it's mass incarceration.
It's, like, all these people in the,
in, in, in the, in the hood then
went to jail and things like that.
So if you can be violated by if I'm in
the presence of someone else that's from
the prisons, like, that's in the prison
system or went, was, went through theâ¦
Like, if you a, a prior criminal, that's
a violation 'cause you hanging with him.
But that's, like, almost
everybody in the hood.
So your parole officer pop up on
you, and you standing next to this
guy, and he he also went through
the system, you can go to jail.
You- Wow.
You, you can't have a phone,
but then you need a phone.
How can a job call you if you
put in applications and, and
you, you waiting for a call?
But they say you're not allowed
to have cell phone on parole.
This is crazy.
It's, like, insane.
So how do you
Rupert Isaacson: stay out
of jail with the, with the
Russell Craig: way- Oh, it's a long list.
I can't even remember all of them.
It's a long list.
No, it's set up to, likeâ¦
So the way it's set up with all that
stuff, with them, the little examples
I gave you- You can't go outside.
It be like you give them your
address of where you gonna be,
you can't go outside of this.
What if my job, this job that
I found is outside of the map?
They give you a map and what you can't.
I wanted to make a art some art
about this, a series of art about
how ridiculous that list is.
And I won't even me- mention a few things.
I don't got the whole thing memorized.
It's a long list of things
that can get you back.
And then they ask you a question of how.
It, it, it's really no, it is no how,
'cause, like, if they might can get you.
So it's aboutâ¦
A- a- and some of the parole
officers are really dicks.
So, like, they the ones that
they'll put you back in prison.
And it's set up, that system thing
I'm telling you, that allows them
to can put you in for anything.
So you, you have to be fortunate by
God that you don't have one that's,
like, driven to put you back.
'Cause if you get one that don't like
you, you're going back, and that's
how, that's, like, kind of how it goes.
So the way to, to curve it, you
have to have, when the inside, you
gotta somehow set up structure.
Like, have things set up and
hopefully that you fortunate enough.
I ain't have all that.
So that was another reason
why art was so serious.
Like, it be some people swear
that that that, like, things
that happen with me is luck.
You know what I'm saying?
But they don't understand the planning
and me the, and the understanding that I
had of what I was gonna be dealing with.
So I, like, you know, it was, like,
phenomenal how I was able to, like,
actually execute the plan of, like, I'll
use art as, like, my, my, my, my, my, my,
my navigation, like, system through all
that madness that I was explaining to you
Rupert Isaacson: A lot of people
must not have any structures to
come back out to, and they don't
have a great talent for art.
And even if they did, I mean, you
know, it's j- talent's not enough.
You know, you, you, you have to have
a certain kind of organized mind and
drive and understand, you know, the
system that you're trying to enter.
What is the art world?
How do I enter it?
You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
How do youâ¦
Wouldâ¦
If you were, if you were a parole
officer and you were going to
help somebody navigate this,
what would you suggest they do?
Russell Craig: Well-
Rupert Isaacson: A good parole officer
⦠Russell Craig: well, and
I, and I had one too.
He was like, he was this military
dude, and he was like, so for me,
my, my pers- my, my experience and
then I'll try to answer your question
with like how do somebody else do it.
Well, yeah, I can, I can
tie it to what I did.
Like, I had a plan long time ago.
I had a plan.
So, I did seven year- they, I,
I did 12 years total, and I did
seven on my last time that I was
in prison, my last prison stay.
So with those years leading up
to my release, I was thinking of
Oh, oh, my apologies.
Rupert Isaacson: No worries.
Russell Craig: I was thinking
about my release all the time.
Like, I never, I neverâ¦
Remember when I sa- stated how, like, I w-
I didn't really get into, like, doing too
much of the, like, prison kind of stuff?
And I dipped and dabbed in it.
It was times I played chess,
it was times I played spades.
But I was m- majority, I'm talking
85%, I'm gonna say that's a fair,
that's a fair number, 85% art.
And not only just art, thinking of howâ¦
And, and I was doing pretty good with
my, like, business inside there, like
making the portraits for people or
whatever 'cause I never got visits.
I've never got no
letters, n- none of that.
I don't have family structure.
And I was one of the very
few that, that had nobody.
And the only dudes that was like me
was the, if you've been there for many
years, and you like 90 years old and
everybody you, in your family died.
So those the type of people
that never had nobody.
For me to be, I'm, I'm 19, 20,
and never getting visits and
stuff like that was unheard of.
So I was just focusing.
So and then that also created
urgency for me, too, 'cause it's
like nobody to to, like, help you.
So it makes me, like, really
be like having to figure
out, like, how, like nothing.
Like, no kind of support.
No girlfriend, no-
Rupert Isaacson: But you didn't
know when you were on the inside
how to get stuff into galleries,
how to break into the art world- Oh,
Russell Craig: yeah.
No, none of that.
Rupert Isaacson: None of
that ⦠so what was the plan?
Russell Craig: Wait, just to do it.
Just to, just to do it.
Like how I said, just to build it.
So you can a- add this to what I'm
trying to say to you right now-
Mm-hmm ⦠'cause I done did it.
I did it with nothing, with
absolute nothing, with just a dream.
No support, nothing.
No experience and nothing- So
Rupert Isaacson: what
were the first steps?
You get out.
Russell Craig: Your first steps is here.
Mm-hmm.
Your mental.
Your first steps is believing.
Your first steps is truly believing first.
Second is the planning Plan it out.
You gotta visualize it.
I mastermind, then go after mind.
Then I
Rupert Isaacson: see- So,
right, but what was the plan?
I mean, I'm, I'm intrigued.
Russell Craig: To be an artist.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Russell Craig: No plan B.
Th- that's how it, that's
how I did it, no lie.
I told you, I have a p- proof.
We can go back to the conversation in
the beginning of this, of this Zoom.
Mm.
And I have that piece prophesized
on the African American Museum of
Philadelphia when I kind of first,
my, my, my first years out of, like
when I was just getting released
because that's what I was doing inside.
I told you.
I even stated out my mouth,
"I'm gonna be a famous artist."
That's what I told dudes, "I'm gonna
be a famous artist," and really
was crazy enough to believe so.
So that's where it come from.
And then after that, and I stated
earlier in the Zoom, I said,
I am saying that I'm notâ¦
This is what I want yourâ¦
This is if they don't take away
nothing else, your listeners.
I'm not the guy who say
stuff 'cause it sound cool.
Put me on the camera, I'm gonna
say all this stuff, and I'm
this guy and I'm this guru.
I'm this professional and I know
how to tell you all this stuff.
I'm telling you exactly what happened.
I'm, I'm a person that had nothing.
All my life I had nothing.
I had nobody.
I had nothing.
Nobody, nothing.
I, I, I, just understand that.
Not even a little bit of something.
Nothing.
And then once I got into that
prison system, I said, "I
have to escape this world."
I had a, a visualization of like
where I was at and a realization,
an epiphany of like, whoa, I'm
in like captivity for real.
Like, even if you leave this prison,
I told you, with the parole and all
that stuff, it's, is a trap for you.
It'd be a lot of people, they'd
be like, "It's amazing how you was
able to get up out of there," thing.
I had a clear decision.
I was like, I'm, I want out of here.
Like, I want out of this.
Like, they like in the Matrix
and the new slavery, all of that.
I'm a runaway slave.
I'm out of here.
So then, and it, and it came with
like, okay, how do you escape?
So it was about.
And then I said, "I'm gonna use art."
If I was able to do and, and sell art
and stuff in that kind of environment
with dudes, it's their family sending
them money, and they giving the
money that's being sent to them to
me in, in that kind of environment,
then I'll say I can make it.
They say if you can make it in New
York, you can make it in anywhere.
If you can make it in prison,
you can make it anywhere.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Russell Craig: So then,
and then it's the energy.
And then I say it goes beyond you.
Then once you take those steps,
it goes beyond you after that.
Then it's stuff coming from, and it's,
it's people choose not to believe in
like a god or if you want to say it's the
universe, good karma, like I try to do
things in good intentions or whatever,
then there be things that be happening.
You know what I'm saying?
I flew back yesterday here.
I changed my seat in a plane.
True story that I was
gonna keep to myself.
I said I'm working on some stuff.
I stated earlier, I said-
That I was gonna rush a thing, and
then I said, "No, let me take my time
a little bit with this and then really
present something nice for the guy who
runs Louis Vuitton wife who's sitting
next to me on the plane yesterday
when I changed my seat last minute."
Will told me, "Stop buying
first class tickets."
I said, "Nah," 'cause you never kn- one,
you never know who you gonna sit next to.
This is my thoughts and
what I decided to do.
I said, "Nah, I'ma get
first class 'cause youâ¦"
And also I'm transporting a lot of stuff.
With first class you allowed to have
heavier bags, and I'm transporting my
stuff from New York was the two reasons,
and then the other reason was, like,
you never know who you sit next to.
I was in the back of the first class.
It's like four rows.
Last minute as you could check
in on your phone, I moved my seat
to the front just instinctively
I always have my headphones
on, play the game and shit.
I'm, I'm giving you example how things
happen be beyond you once you on the path.
Things will happen that you didn't plan.
There's no The, the, the, the
airport attendant take my bag
and say, "You gotta put it up,"
'cause I had it under the seat.
It was a Louis Vuitton bag.
And he said, "Oh, that's a nice bag."
I said, "Yeah, it's
Louis Vuitton, vintage."
She said, "That's Louis Vuitton.
My husband own Louis Vuitton."
And next thing you know, now I'm
doing paintings for her or whatever.
I didn't plan that.
I didn't even know who she was.
That was yesterday, and then
after the Zoom we going to her.
She has a f- a, a dog rescue thing that me
and Will going to after the Zoom is over.
Mm.
And then she want me to
do like four paintings.
Didn't plan that.
Once you get on the path, it, and
that, I could give you these examples
over and over and over again.
Then I said while I'm eating, now
they gave us our peanuts and stuff,
and I was like, "You wanna know what?
I have all this Louis Vuitton,"
said, "I've been planning
for this before it happened.
I got all this Louis Vuitton.
You want me to run upstairs and
come back down with the receipts?
I got the receipts."
'Cause I, I kept them to, toâ¦
They come in a orange I got a whole
lot of receipts upstairs, a whole lot.
I will, will run and show them to you.
I held them for years 'cause I
said, "I'ma, I'm, I'ma do some art
with this," and I never rushed it.
I had those for years.
I got all these Louis Vuitton on, people
that got Louis Vuitton, they know.
I have garment bags, and they're
canvas, and I saved them 'cause I
was like, "One day I'm gonna do art."
So now, and then that's why I held
up, 'cause I coulda did a, she sent
me some pictures of her on her horse
and things like that, and I was
gonna paint it, s- get it painted
real quick and today show her.
Like, "Look how fast I did it.
Look, it look just like
you," dah, dah, dah.
I said, "No, I'ma use the materials
from Louis Vuitton, put them
together, and then paint her on
her Louis Vuitton, her business on
her stuff," and not gonna rush it.
I didn't plan it.
Well- Mm ⦠parts of it I kind of
prepared it because I, I saved all
these Louis Vuitton materials for this.
And this is a true story.
The head of Louis Vuitton's wife I'm
doing work for that I met randomly,
because like certain things start opening
up for you once you get on a path.
Rupert Isaacson: This,
this I absolutely get.
What I'm trying, let's go back to putting
together in our mind, okay, someone's
coming out of jail, and now maybe they're
coming to our therapeutic riding place.
They will have a parole officer.
Let's say you were that parole officer.
You were a good parole officer.
What would be the first piece of
guidance, or what would be like the
five main pieces of guidance that you
would give to somebody coming out?
And then what can we as the
equine therapeutic practitioners
learn from that to back that up?
Okay, so now you, you're
the parole officer.
What are you telling the
dude when he comes out?
Russell Craig: It, it's kind
of hard because like, okay,
well let me put it like this.
So I would have to see in
the certain individual-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Russell Craig: the potential, the
potential for me to even tell them
anything, because a lot of them
don't wanna hear it or don't care.
So you'll, you'll be able to
like, and I'm really good with
like- judging character and, like,
feeling energy of, like, a person.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Russell Craig: So, like, if it's one
of those ones that, like, you think
got potential, then that's the ones who
you, who you, who you'll give advice to.
Then even will probably
have to assist in ways.
Like, not only just tell
them what they need to do.
K- help them.
'Cause, like, I have a understanding
that knowing it's not that, it's
not that easy for them to be getting
out of, like, their situations and
going into something different.
You know what I mean?
So you would, you would, like, explain.
And then you would have that, you
would have people giving you positiv-
positivity and, and even with, I told you
I had a good dude that's military dude.
I think he was, like- Like, he
was a parole officer, but then he
also ⦠Yeah, I think he still was
like ⦠See, he, he, he had some kind
of involvements in military still.
He wasn't even ex-military.
But he was, like, a positive
dude, you know what I mean?
So and then he was
And I was, like, getting invited to
the White House and all this stuff
and doing the murals and- But not
Rupert Isaacson: immediately upon
leaving jail you weren't, so-
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: were you?
Russell Craig: Yeah.
I started popping ASAP.
ASAP.
I was in a halfway house on getting on the
⦠And I was on the news all the time.
That's how Agnes Gund seen me all the
way in New York and all that stuff.
I know.
I'm trying to tell you.
I was invited to the White
House when Obama was there.
Rupert Isaacson: How did you, how did you
get seen and discovered in the halfway
Russell Craig: house?
I was, I was out there doing murals.
Okay.
Oh, I landed a job with Mural Arts while I
was in prison, so as soon as I ⦠Because
for parole, you have a parole meeting,
and I'm not talking about being on parole.
You have to have a parole meeting
before you leave prison, right?
And then one of the things they be
like, "So what you gonna do for work?"
And this is how they get people,
because a lot of dudes, you in
prison, how you gonna get a job?
How you got a job set up?
Mm-hmm.
But Mural Arts of Philadelphia
came to the prison and was doing
They, they had, like, some inmates
that was making murals in the inside,
and I wasn't part of that program.
But I went there in a kind of
unauthorized area because I had a
plan that I was gonna be a artist,
and then I heard about the art thing.
So the Mural
Rupert Isaacson: Arts of Philadelphia, you
were aware of this, and you targeted them.
Yeah.
And then that was your springboard.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
They had a meeting and stuff.
Okay.
I, I got-
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
See, this is the journalist in me-
Yeah ⦠peeling back the onion layers.
Because if I was the parole
officer, I might say, "Okay, listen.
I know this guy Russell.
He made this plan, and he ⦠For
a while he was just telling
me, 'No, no, it just happens.
You know, the universe â¦' And
yes, the universe is a big part
of it, but he also had a plan.
I wanted to know what that plan was.
And finally he told me, 'Ah,
yes, there was this organization,
Mural Arts of Philadelphia.
I started doing some stuff on the
inside for them, and when I came
to the outside, there it was and I
could springboard up from that.'"
Russell Craig: No, and I, and I
went ⦠No, I went unauthorized area.
Okay.
Like, I wasn't even a
part of their program.
I, I, like, when I just got there.
Right.
Like, I went above and
beyond to get where I needed.
Rupert Isaacson: But you knew that
they existed, and you knew to go there.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Russell Craig: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: See, that's the
kind of information which people
may or may not have, right?
And I'm just thinking in terms of ⦠So
let's say for example we were this
therapeutic riding place, and maybe
there were artists coming out of jail.
And maybe we would have a series of
mural walls That these artists could,
that maybe there'd even be some funding
to pay them to put together some art
on these things, so they could turn
to their parole officer and say, "See?
I'm doing this, and I'm
getting paid for this."
And then perhaps we would then invite
people from the art world to come
and look at some of these murals.
And then you've suddenly harnessed your
own experience to help people coming out.
And then you might say, "Well,
okay, but they're not all artists,
so what are the, what are the other
equivalents for the other arts?
What are the other equivalents for music,
or what are the other equivalents ofâ¦"
And then, well, some of
them are budding scientists.
What are, what are some of
those things that we could do?
And one could put perhaps together
that sort of an infrastructure around
a therapeutic place, a therapeutic
riding place, where they also perhaps
have to look after the horses to,
who are gonna help these kids or
whatever, so there's gi- give back.
But suddenly I'm seeing what one
might do for those people coming out.
Now, as you say, they'd have to want to.
You can take a horse to water,
you can't make it drink.
I mean, you, you can only give
the opportunities, but that plan
that you had in jail and that you
then executed, someone else might
not know, but you could make that
available in, in a way like that.
That's the sort of way, how my brain goes.
It's like one person's success story
can become a more general success story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Access again.
So much of it seems to come down
to access, and access seems to come
down to knowing what to access.
That the, that something like Mural
Arts Philadelphia even exists.
Like, I, I didn't know that
until you told me, you know?
Yeah.
Russell Craig: Most murals
produced in the world,
Rupert Isaacson: it's Philadelphia murals.
And they, they, they do them on public,
they do them on buildings around
i, i, in the city as, as sort of f-
Russell Craig: Big world.
They do the most in the world.
Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.
Do you know the, the history of that?
Why?
Why it's Philadelphia,
and who, who started it?
Russell Craig: So her name is Jane Golden,
and she started it about 40 years ago.
And they just be pumping murals out.
And, ⦠And then, like, me seeing
the murals in the city and me having
my interest in art, I always was
interested in art since a kid.
Mm-hmm.
So was, like, intrigued by the
art an- and wi- and w- wondering,
like, how they do these murals
so big on a whole big building.
And the things that used to cross my
mind as I'm, like, walking down the
street and would see the, the art.
Mm.
So once I heard that they was, like,
in the prison doing work in the prison.
And then, like, to get into the program
you would have to wait for somebody
to die or whatever to get in, 'cause
it was only limited, limited spots.
So they would either get out.
A lot of ⦠It was a g- quite a few
lifers that was a part of that program.
And it was a quite a few
programs in there that, like, it
something like the lifers had.
And it'd be hard for you to get in.
So if you had, like, a five to
10 and something like that, you
wouldn't get into a lot of these
programs or these opportunities.
It seemed like it was kind
of set up for the guys that
were gonna be there long term.
So I go to the library and then
I sneak into the auditorium
where the art is being done.
I wasn't supposed to be there, but I
just knew I needed to get to them people.
'Cause this is, like, I was telling you,
I had no knowledge of no, no art, nobody.
So I didn't ⦠Like, that was
my only thing I knew about.
Like, oh, these people do art.
Those are ⦠That's,
that's the art world.
I was thinking that was the art world.
And murals is not the art world.
Like, art world is, like,
MOMA and stuff like that.
You know what I mean?
But it's, but that's what I was thinking.
And it was, like, a stepping stone.
It was, like, a start.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you ⦠How
do they get the permission to put
the murals up on these buildings?
What's the process by which they get that?
Russell Craig: Oh, she was really
connected with the city and things, so
she just knew people to connect with.
Like, the higher-ups,
the, like, the folks.
'Cause that's what it's all about too.
That's an important thing to figure out.
You have to find the people who you
need to connect with to even get
the ball rolling, and then just do
the work after everything's set up.
Structure ha- happen
first, and then you do it.
Rupert Isaacson: Something
which I've often ⦠I agree.
S- something which I've often thought
about with riding arenas, is that they
can function very well as art galleries.
And in fact, I've known some people
do that, where they put down a f-
a floor and then use the riding
arena for a different type of event.
Could be a music event, could
be an art event, whatever.
And the, you know, these places
could be showcasing local artists
and selling their work and showcasing
their work and bringing the art world
into the therapeutic riding world,
or bringing- Other worlds in together
that often what's so difficult
is these things get separated.
No, we're just a horse place.
Like, well, yeah, but you could
be like Starbucks with local
artists on the walls, couldn't you?
You know?
Why do things have to be
separated in this way?
And it sometimes takes people coming
in from radically different worlds.
You come in from a
radically different world.
I come at the therapeutic and the
horse world from a slightly different
place because of my background
with journalism and activism.
So we might have ideas that an
average place might not have that
then can go on to become the norm.
So I'm just wondering, if we put this
program together then we should absolutely
have these opportunities, I think, for
people coming out to work on, showcase,
and produce various types of art which are
then, you know, included in the program.
Are you working on any murals right now?
Are you, are you still doing that?
Russell Craig: No, I'm not working
on any murals, but I told you about
the, Well, I'm trying to, I got, I
need to put a piece together for Boca.
I'm, like, in museums now,
so murals I don't really do.
Oh, but we proposed to, and I've
been accepted to the second round
about doing some public art.
And oh, we have to leave soon too.
We have 10 minutes toâ¦
How, how far is that thing?
It, we, it's 10 minutes away.
She just
Rupert Isaacson: said- Okay.
Well, we, we, we're approaching
the, the two-hour mark, so we
can wrap up because there'sâ¦
Clearly we're gonna continue
this conversation anyway.
But okay, so y- you know,
your career is going.
You're, you're down there in Wellington.
W- we are, of course, talking about what
might we do to bring our worlds together.
And that's exciting.
You need to run off to do your
next art appointment today.
Russell Craig: There's a meeting.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what do you
think if you were going to l- the
people who are watching this right
now and listening to this are largely
probably female working with horses-
In the USA, in the UK, thinking about
how they might help foster kids, how they
might look at people coming out of the
system that you've come out of, et cetera.
What are, like, your
closing words for them?
What advice do you have in terms of
reaching out to the person that was
you as a kid, the person that was you
incarcerated, the person that is you now?
Russell Craig: I would just say 'cause,
like, sometime I meet people I met a few
lady friends, and they be like, "Oh, I
work with kids," and things like that.
And sometime I can tell when
they, like, are genuine and they,
like, a good person or whatever.
And then for them to have that
decision to do that, to do that line
of work is, like, it's very important.
Because, like me, like my
experience, I didn't have a lot
of support from, like, theâ¦
I was in an unfortunate kind of a thing.
But those who take that work
but then they really care, is
it, that's like half the battle.
So then after that, it's all
about just keep pushing, you know.
Reach out for help for
whatever you're doing.
Don't just put all the
burdens on their back.
You know what I'm saying?
And and, like, basically just that.
Just keep, just keep at it.
And connect with other,
others like-minded, you know?
Because it be kids and things
that, like, really need them.
Like, really though.
So, so that, that work is, like, when
I be hearing, like, those type people
that wanna help, like, foster kids
or young kids or troubled kids, like,
they're more heroes in my mind than,
like, athletes and things like that.
To me, it's like they're just
playing, like, a sport, and they was
interested in the sport as a kid.
And then they, like,
entertaining people, whatever.
But, like, those folks that really,
like, do things that help the, the,
the humanity, I mean kids and, like,
doctors and stuff like that, is the thing
that I really take, tip my hat off to.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Russell Craig: So I would say
for them to just keep on pushing.
And don't do it alone.
Like, reach out to other people
that that's doing that kind of
work, and think of ways of how
you can take it to the next level.
'Cause it could be overwhelming
if you just go into a thing and
let it just overwhelm you, try,
when you trying to do it all y-
by yourself and things like that.
Rupert Isaacson: And if, if someone
had said, just before you go, if,
if, if, let's say you had been
lucky enough to get out to a program
like this when you were a kid.
What would you like to
have been said to you?
as the eight-year-old,
10-year-old, 11-year-old Russell?
Russell Craig: I don't know.
That's a, then that's a hard question
'cause it's like, what, what kind of
words could somebody could have told
me at a young age that would've been so
Rupert Isaacson: helpful?
What kind of experience do you think
would've benefited you the most?
Russell Craig: Just that environment.
Just a caring environment and with, with
just like explo- exploring different
things, exposing me to different
things when it come to like the nature,
the horses, the thing like that.
A staff of people that's like caring,
and we teaching them things like, oh, we
mentioned spirituality or just knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
And just, and just a caring environment
that's like nurturing to the growth of
the kid the way you would grow a plant,
since we talk about nature, the way you
would take care of the horses properly.
You know what I'm saying?
A whole system of that.
And just being there is enough because
those words and things like that
and experiences are gonna happen
within that kind of environment-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
Russell Craig: that's created properly.
When, I had mentioned
earlier about structure.
When it's built on good
structure, it will stand.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
All right, my friend.
I know you need to run, so
thank you so much for this.
Russell Craig: You already know.
Rupert Isaacson: To be,
to be continued, I think.
Russell Craig: Yes, yes.
I, I look forward to, like,
coming in your neck of the woods.
Rupert Isaacson: It's gonna happen.
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