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Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
*This transcript is produced using transcription software and reviewed for quality. Despite our best efforts, some passages may be incomplete or contain errors due to audio quality or software limitations.*
Megan Hunter
Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-founder, Bill Eddy.
Bill Eddy
Hi, everybody.
Megan Hunter
We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and ConflictInfluencer.com, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, classes, and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. Today we are continuing on about answering your questions. So thank you everyone for sending questions in. We have all kinds of questions that cover many things. So we're going to just dive right in today, Bill. Oh, and I forgot last week to say, welcome listeners, especially to those of you who are enjoying a cup of hot chocolate. And today I'll say to those of you who might be sipping a martini or not.
Okay, here we go. "Dear Megan and Bill, I've been listening to your show for a year and a half now. Both of you have such calm voices and I feel like it's a spa moment when I listen." I love that. I don't know if my husband has the same experience all the time with me. We'll have to ask Paul sometime. "I have found the information so useful and I don't feel alone in trying to keep the conflict small." Oh, thank you for using that, conflict small. "However, I have experienced a whole lifetime of family conflict from picking sides, your in or your out behavior. Their rules rule, their way or the highway. I have been the peacekeeper, and I don't want that role anymore.
"I've accepted poor behavior until the last two years. This has created so much stress in my life, and I really want to just be cordial with them all, but some members won't even allow it. You're either for them or you're against them. A family of five. I'm praying my next chapter of life I can just break free from all of this. So again, here is something I do not know how to handle. Hoping you both can help. My son is getting married this fall and I'm struggling with a family situation. I have an estranged sister with whom I've had a lifetime of conflict, many years of contempt, disrespect, and emotional abuse, and I finally chose to step away from the relationship.
"I don't want revenge or reconciliation. I simply want peace. The reason I believe she has so much hatred toward me is because I started saying no and choosing different. She took great offense to it and in return would hang up on me, block me, and then also block from social media. She is so angry towards me. My son initially invited my sister to the wedding because she's family, but also because he is her certified financial planner and manages her financial accounts. They have an ongoing professional relationship which has made things complicated for him. She has already been invited, and now my son isn't sure what to do." Ah, caught in the middle.
"A recent interaction between my sister and me in a public place was incredibly uncomfortable. She had extreme eye rolling, a dismissive flip of her head, and the same contemptuous behavior that has existed for years. It reminded me why I created distance in the first place." Yeah, it's good to have those reminders once in a while. That was a Megan edit. "I don't want to put my son in the middle or make his wedding about family drama, but I also know that if she's there, I'll spend the entire day anxious, avoiding her, worrying about family photos and interactions, and honestly wondering if I'll end up leaving my own son's wedding just to escape the tension. Parts of me feels like I should simply endure it because it's one day and it's my son's wedding. Another part of me feels like I've worked too hard to heal, to willingly put myself back into an environment where I feel emotionally unsafe. How do you know when making peace means accepting discomfort for someone you love and when you're actually abandoning your own boundaries?
"And now that my sister has already been invited, what is the most compassionate and healthiest way for my son and for me to move forward?" So, Bill, thoughts?
Bill Eddy
Yeah, yeah, a lot of thoughts. First of all, all these questions are very relatable to many, many people. And weddings, I'll just quickly mention a wedding story. I did a mediation between two generations of children in a family where dad had remarried, and the younger generation of kids and the older generation of kids, they had a probate dispute. Dad had died. One of them served court papers on the other at his own wedding.
Megan Hunter
Oh, ouch.
Bill Eddy
That's the maximum tension example. So be glad you're not getting papers served on you or serving papers on your sister in this scenario. First, it helps to think, and like you said, Megan, before, is the issue is not the issue, the personality is the issue. How your sister is relating to you comes from her personality, not from things you've done. Nothing you've done deserves this kind of rudeness, this kind of public insensitivity, et cetera. Nothing you could have done. When people want to solve problems, they try to do it privately. So this is someone not trying to solve anything, they're just reacting out of their own personality and probably a pretty reactive person.
Megan Hunter
And it's all they can think about.
Bill Eddy
Yeah. They're kind of at war with the world. And since you're the sister, you're a big part of the world, so they're at war with you, not based on anything that you've done. This is their approach to life. So understanding that may help you not go, "What did I do to deserve this?" Or defending yourself, all of that. The second thing I want to say is as adults, in many ways, we choose our families. And when someone has a high conflict relative, it's not unusual that people decide they're not going to be part of my close-knit family. And people bring in friends who are really supportive of them and may distance themselves from some, you know, family relatives.
And that's normal and it's healthy. You want healthy people around you. As an adult, you have choice. And that's the third thing I want to mention, is think in terms of your choices for this event, for the wedding. You can choose not to go. You could choose to go but keep a distance. You could choose to leave in the middle if you're uncomfortable. Knowing that you have choices usually relieves some of the stress. But the last thing I want to suggest, if you want to try to get through it at the wedding with her there, is to practice giving yourself an encouraging statement. And we teach encouraging statements a lot to deal with high conflict situations so you're not rattled by them.
An encouraging statement would be something like, "Whatever she says and does, it's not about me." Just, "It's not about me." Writing that down, posting it on your bathroom mirror, practicing that for a week before you get to the event may help you emotionally have a boundary and not absorb her behavior. She rolls her eyes, you know, "Oh, well, it's not about me." And maybe another encouraging statement, you know, "I'm being appropriate," or "I'm happy for my son," something that helps you feel good. And what's interesting with encouraging statements is if you say them to yourself, when someone else is being rude or inappropriate or even criticizing you, your voice is louder than their voice in your head, and that's where it matters.
So I think an encouraging statement might be the secret to getting through the wedding, even if she's there and even if she's rolling her eyes or just being nasty. But know you have a choice if you want. But I think for your son's sake, the place to start is just trying to get through it without reacting to her.
Megan Hunter
Yeah, and it's your son's wedding.
Bill Eddy
Yeah.
Megan Hunter
This is your day. You're the mother of the groom, right? This is a day that will not be repeated. So it can be, really knock the best of us off of our confidence when we get around that person that our brain remembers that history and the feelings that go along with that history, and it can be, it can just knock us over, and we think we're going in strong and confident, and I haven't felt upset for a while, and I've set the boundaries, I've set the limits, and yet now here I am dreading going to my son's wedding because of this one person. So I would suggest, and it goes under the encouraging statements umbrella, is to not let one single person on this planet hold your confidence, your peace, and your happiness in their hands.
And I can actually visualize that person. I try to visualize them holding out their hand and visualize myself getting into their hand. Right? It's not possible. They can't hold me in their hand, right? And it kind of reminds me, yeah, this is ridiculous. I will hold this peace myself. I'm not giving that power to someone else. And like you said, Bill, it's, you remind yourself, "It's not about me." "This is about them, has nothing to do with me," while not underestimating that, yeah, I'll probably feel uncomfortable, but the power of changing your thoughts is powerful. And that's what encouraging statements do. What I like to do is remind myself of how I am with other people in other settings. That really empowers me once again. So if I feel a little bit knocked off and I'm feeling underconfident, I'll just think, "Okay, that's my clue, that's my sign that this isn't about me." Because I don't feel this way around other people in other settings. So, oh, and you kind of have to remind yourself then that that is the reminder. That's the, like, the alarm bell that should go off in your head that this isn't about me.
So I have a choice here and I choose to not let it affect me 'cause it's really not about me. I have great relationships with other people. And another idea is maybe, you know, kind of think selectively ahead of the wedding about who's going to be there, who you can kind of hang out with and talk to. So you sort of feel supported. You don't have to go and tell people, you know, nasty things about your sister. But like, "I need you to, you know, be my shield and armor." But if we're feeling supported by those around us as far as even just being in their presence, then I think it makes the day a lot easier. Because I don't want to, you know, say that just doing all this makes it absolutely wonderful, but it does make it possible.
Bill Eddy
That's the goal.
Megan Hunter
Yeah. Great question.
Thank you for sending that in. I hope the wedding isn't already passed, but if it is, I hope you went. And we'd love to hear how it went for you. And I hope, you know, we both hope it was a wonderful day. All right, moving on to the next question. "What is the single most important step someone can take to protect themselves and get the best possible outcome in a divorce when the process starts off on the wrong foot? In my case, several things went wrong early. My first attorney believed my husband, who is also an attorney, who has since been diagnosed with NPD, narcissistic personality disorder. After nine months at the first mediation, my attorney told the mediator that I did not want the marital home, something we had never discussed. I didn't leave the session.
"I sat there stunned and non-responsive. It felt like a good old boy meeting between my husband and attorney, then my attorney and the male mediator, and I was completely blindsided. I had a high-paying career for 30 years and had to retire due to mandatory retirement. The timing of the divorce appears to have been planned to maximize what he could take from me financially. All of this happened during our daughters' senior year of high school, they're twins, adding even more instability. Given all of this, what matters most at this stage to correct the course and protect myself moving forward?"
Bill Eddy
Well, several things. The first thing, if you're looking for what's the first thing, I would say the first thing is to get my book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Megan Hunter
It was written for you.
Bill Eddy
That's right, right. I knew you needed this. It talks about before the separation, talks about during the divorce process, talks about negotiation, mediation, and court, and then after the divorce. So I don't know where you are in the process right now, but wherever you are, I think that book will be helpful because it explains not only, like, the court process and mediation. It also explains what we call Negative Advocates, lawyers that get emotionally hooked. And sadly, sometimes your own lawyer gets emotionally hooked by the other side.
And that sounds like what happened in your case. So I think the book would be helpful. The second thing I think is if you're in the middle of this still, is shopping for a new lawyer. And in the book, I give suggestions for questions to ask. Interview at least three lawyers and pick the one you can communicate with the most. Whether they know much about borderline or narcissistic personalities is less important than that you feel you can communicate with them. The third thing is often getting a good therapist who can help you understand your ex-husband's behavior, but also help boost your own confidence. Because if you were immobilized in that mediation, first of all, it's understandable if your ex-husband, your lawyer, and the mediator, and your ex-husband's lawyer are all agreeing with each other, that would be quite devastating.
But also to boost your confidence that a therapist is good for that in this type of process. And being able to role play, and you can say, "Can I role play a discussion?" Or pretend your therapist is the mediator. What would you say to the mediator and what's the mediator likely to say back? Things like that. The next thing I would say is having a good support system. So not just the therapist, but also a couple people you can talk to kind of as you go through the process. So you don't feel alone. That's one of the biggest things people tell us, Megan, is they feel alone in these disputes. And that here in the podcast you realize you're not alone.
There's thousands of people going through the same thing.
Megan Hunter
Yeah, we talk to them or hear from them every single day.
Bill Eddy
Yeah, yeah. And so having a couple people you can talk to really helps that feeling you're not alone. You're dealing with a difficult situation. So those would be the things that come through my thinking. If you do end up in court, read chapter 14 in the Splitting book, talk about presenting the three biggest concerns. In the case, you know, if the other party lies a lot, or if they're undermining your parenting, or things like that, that you keep a narrow focus on like three main patterns so that you can repeat that a lot and the court will absorb that. But yeah, I think finding a good therapist and a good lawyer for you will be really big factors.
Megan Hunter
Yep. And just remember, you know, this can be crazy-making stuff. And if you don't feel supported by the professionals around you, then like Bill said, maybe, you know, go talk to some other professionals. It's sort of like going to a doctor. We don't always connect, you know, maybe with the first doctor or with a therapist. We don't always have a... it's not always a fit, and maybe in this case it's not a fit. I know I came from a rural area and, you know, everyone sort of knows each other in the profession. And it can feel sort of isolating and like you're not really being heard or given a fair shot. And I think when there's a lot at stake, you really need to try to get the best counsel and get the best advice you can. So all the best with that.
Let us know how it's going. Come on, send us a message. All right, another question. "Hi, Megan and Bill. I have found your show truly amazing and helpful." Thank you. "My question is in regards to the role of physical intimidation in high conflict. I believe my wife is high conflict based on behaviors that heavily correlate with everything your website and podcast describes. I've taken your advice and not told her my thoughts." Yes, good.
Because we're always giving that advice. "I've tried to implement the strategies you give, have read several of Bill's books. Sometimes they do not help. During conflict, I try to take a time out when I see that I'm getting flooded or she is overwhelmed, but she can't stand it and has often blocked exits or physically pinned me to the wall. Is this typical for a high conflict person, and how should I address this, as she thinks it isn't a problem? We have three girls, 18, 16, and 11, who live at home, and I don't want them to think that her behavior is okay." So we've said for a long time, you know, it's not always gender-based. You know, we want to think that it's always the men that are being physical, but it's not. I think that react brain puts either men or women into, you know, a potentially pretty aggressive and maybe physical stance.
So Bill.
Bill Eddy
So, first of all, I think we need to call it what it is. It's abuse. It's a form of domestic violence, and most people don't have domestic violence in their relationships. Estimates overall that I keep running into are about 20 to 22% of couples have domestic violence in their relationship. And maybe the majority of those have some mutual pushing and shoving, but a minority, you know, 5 to 10%, have physical abuse and control coming from one side. And some people call it coercive controlling violence. Hitting, pushing, knocking down, strangling, choking, all of these things, whether it's by a man or a woman, are violence. And so it's important to know that's not normal. It's not what most people do.
It's a small percent. Unfortunately, that includes a lot of people. But it's not common, not standard, et cetera. And especially for your daughters, it's important that they not learn this is how to have relationships, because we know that violent relationships are often intergenerational and pass from generation to generation. So you're not going to, on the spot, stop someone like that from having abusive behavior. Generally, it means getting outside help. Now, maybe if she'd be willing to go through a program, the ideal, and sadly it's mostly for men, is weekly, 52-week treatment programs where they meet for 90 minutes with a group leader and peers working on their negative thoughts, working on their impulse control, all of that. There's starting to be some groups for women, and groups seem to be the best way to teach stopping these behaviors, stopping the violence.
Megan Hunter
Why do you think that is, Bill, that a group situation works best? Is it the peer pressure?
Bill Eddy
Groups are where you get the kind of standards of what's normal behavior, what should things be. So if you have a group, like we've learned this so much in substance abuse treatment, AA, all this stuff's group-oriented. And if you're with a group of people all struggling with the same issue but having enough success that you absorb it, because emotions are contagious. I think that's maybe a big part of it. Research on cancer treatments, people in groups do better. So it's something about changing behavior, changing feelings, having a support group as part, but you need a good group leader who knows the issue you're dealing with, and that's, you know, these treatment groups.
Megan Hunter
And it's probably also a no shame, no blame environment as well.
Bill Eddy
Exactly. It's, the goal is to change behavior, not to just, you know, put people down or something like that. I might put in a little plug here. We have a series of six one-hour videos about handling domestic violence in family court cases. I wouldn't be surprised if you get outside support in this case that you eventually may see, if there's no change, that getting a divorce may be the way to protect your daughters from exposure to these kinds of interactions. Well, we're not saying you should or shouldn't do something like that, but that's not unusual that that's what it takes to stop exposure to these behaviors. But ideally there'd be some intervention that would get her to accept responsibility and try to change and not engage in that. But right now, if she's saying it's your fault and she's taking these actions, that's not a good sign and don't believe that. What you absorb and believe in a domestic violence case is often negativity about yourself.
One of the dilemmas, because I suggest a lot of things like EAR statements to calm people and such, a lot of that doesn't really apply if you have a violent situation. What you need to do is get away from the violence or stop the violence, not try to talk the person out of it or talk them down. Once someone's violent, it's really getting away from the violence is the key.
Megan Hunter
So we do hear from a lot of people that when they do try to get away from the violence, the perpetrator, you know, shames them, chases them down, you know, tries to restrain them in some way. So what do you do about that? What do you do in that moment?
Bill Eddy
In that moment, whatever it takes to be safe. If you're totally trapped, you want to say some calming things, you know, like in a calming tone of voice if you can. But there's, you don't talk people out of being violent. They have to go through some kind of learning process, just like with alcohol and drug treatment. So, you know, that's why 52-week group treatment programs for domestic violence are recommended and I recommend. I've had clients go through those and come out with the violence stopped. They still have to work on controlling tendencies. But they've been successful.
I think of two clients that found that very successful. So it's not something you can do in the moment really. The way to deal with it is when it's not happening is structure your life so you're protected from that. Either restraining orders, separation, or getting the person into some kind of treatment. But it's not unusual that it includes being separated for a while. And I would encourage trying to separate for a while so you can think about this and get advice and get some confidence built up. 'Cause when you're living in a situation like this, your confidence is sapped. It gets worse and worse. Especially for your daughters, you know. Don't act like this is something that's on your shoulders. This is something that needs protection.
Megan Hunter
Absolutely. And I think a lot of men are, you know, we've heard from many men for 20 years that they're afraid to tell anyone.
Bill Eddy
Right.
Megan Hunter
about this, and people are really surprised when they find out, and I don't know if they're believed then at that point, but many have called and have written in and said, you know, "I'm in a deep, deep, dark hole with no way out."
Bill Eddy
Yeah. Let me add, just statistically from my experience, the coercive controlling violence where there's hitting and physical abuse, it's about 85% male against female, and about 15% female against male or other female in a gay relationship, for example. So there are maybe 15% of these folks are women. And men are mostly their targets. So it is something to find people you can talk to about. So thanks for asking.
Megan Hunter
Yeah, absolutely. Abuse is wrong and not to be tolerated.
Bill Eddy
And that's abuse.
Megan Hunter
But I know, we know it's tough. That's abuse. Absolutely. All right, one last question and then we'll wrap it up. "Megan and Bill, I've been married to my wife for 20-plus years. My wife went through a traumatic divorce between her parents at a young age and was raised by her mother, who was highly controlling and abusive. Both her mother and grandmother were believed to have mental health disorders, high conflict, but no one knows specifically what. We do know that there has been estrangement between mothers and daughters for multiple generations.
"My wife's sister hasn't spoken to her mom for decades. It was the same with her mom and grandmother. I helped my wife set up boundaries with her mom when we first married with the help of counselors, and we have a limited relationship. My wife and I had challenges in our marriage, but were able to handle them with counseling, but everything went off the rails when our daughters became teenagers." "My wife's..." I know. "My wife's high level of control, emotional outbursts, unpredictability, and threats has made our home chaotic, and it is negatively impacting our kids. Our marriage counselor confidently told me he thinks my wife has BPD. So have two other clinicians, individual and family therapists. However, no one has told my wife, because she keeps firing counselors the second they start challenging her." And in all caps here, "should I try to find someone who can tell her or just let it go? We've probably had over 100 couples, family, and individual counseling sessions over the past four years, and I've seen no improvement.
"Her focus is primarily blaming myself and the kids for everything. She was also diagnosed with ADHD and has refused the recommended medication. Between the BPD and ADHD, our home is chaotic and unpredictable. However, my wife is a charming angel to the outside world, while myself and our kids deal with the combative, forgetful, blaming personality privately." That's what we were just saying in the last question.
Bill Eddy
Yeah.
Megan Hunter
"One of our daughters developed an eating disorder and had to go to a residential clinic to recover. I'm seeing the signs of DARVOing." I always forget what that means.
It's deny... So I had to look it up. Deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender.
Bill Eddy
Right.
Megan Hunter
"I'm seeing the signs of DARVOing in our daughter who is recovering from the eating disorder. I've read there is a high correlation between BPD and eating disorders. What advice do you have for me as a dad? I'm debating whether we need to separate since it appears the likelihood of our kids developing BPD increases the more they see the behavior at home. But I'm also concerned that if we get 50-50 custody, I won't be able to step in and help when things get out of control." And that's always the question, isn't it, Bill?
Bill Eddy
Yeah, yeah. So a few things. So right now, one thing is there's an opportunity to change some of the family values because of the daughter's hospitalization. If there's, you know, social worker, psychologists, treatment team involved, what would be great is if you could get a list from them of, like, 10 things to do to support your daughter, including managing your own emotions, including not blaming other people for your own behavior, and kind of a list of things that your wife needs to follow. And I don't know if someone would do that, but you can start trying to shift the family culture to one of peaceful interactions, respect for each other, emotional boundaries. Boundaries are a big issue for borderline, and your situation sounds like that.
Non-blaming, that people need to stop blaming each other, take responsibility for their part, and if they want other people to act differently, is to make requests or proposals rather than blaming people, avoiding arguments about the past, not trying to give insight into each other and say, "Well, you're doing this because..." I think that might give you an opening to change the family culture, protect the girls, and calm things between you and your wife. I think that's a long shot. When you've got someone with a personality disorder, the biggest factor is it's an enduring pattern of behavior. Those four words are very important to remember. Enduring pattern of behavior. If this endures, it may be you need a period of separation to think about what can make this better, and also to jolt the family system with that something has to change. You may decide after you're separated for a month that you can make this work, and she says, "I'll get some counseling," and that could be a great outcome, but a positive jolt to the family dynamic that it has to change. I agree that leaving things as they are, you've got a good chance of raising one or more borderline daughters because this is an intergenerational passage of behavior. Sometimes because of genetic tendencies, but often just because of learning what you observe. And if they see her and they see her blaming, then they're going to become blaming. So those are some thoughts. I want to add, if you end up getting divorced and going through the court process, there's things to consider, and I'd recommend you read my Splitting book, Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And part of how you help professionals realize that 50-50 may not be the best idea is by presenting your case, focusing on three concerning patterns of behavior and saying what they are in your case. And that's chapter 14 in the book, the Splitting book.
Because yes, that is a concern. And a lot of professionals are blind to this behavior and are easily conned by the sweet, friendly surface of someone with a borderline personality. So they can be some of the most charming people in the world for a little while. And professionals may only see them for a little while. So anyway, these are all some things to consider.
Megan Hunter
All right, Bill, thank you. And all the best to you, listener who wrote that in. I know these are big decisions, but, like Bill said, continue to read, get the counsel you need, and protect yourself, protect your family. We'll put the link to the Splitting book, obviously, down in the show notes. And we have a course for therapists. This is brand new that Bill recorded. It's a certification, and it's for any mental health professionals to learn about high conflict personalities. It's fantastic. You might want to wait to sign up for it. It's an online on-demand course that you, you know, it's self-paced.
You can take any time, because we're very close to getting accreditation for continuing education units. So that should be probably in the next six weeks or so. But we'll put that link in there and keep that in mind if you're a therapist. There's a couple other courses we'll put in there. The domestic violence course that Bill talked about, where we interviewed 16 professionals from all different angles about domestic violence, intimate partner violence.
Thank you for sending in the questions and joining us today on It's All Your Fault. Be sure to subscribe and, you know, hit that like button. We love that. Share the episode with someone who might benefit. And until next time, if you're looking for training or consulting about a high conflict anything in your organization, find us at HighConflictInstitute.com. If it's something for your personal life, ConflictInfluencer.com. Keep learning and practicing the skills. Be kind to yourself and to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing peace.
It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at trustory.fm or HighConflictInstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.