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A global conversation of leaders, investors, and everyday changemakers aimed at redefining resilience in today’s ever-evolving world.
Dr. Kelly Culver and Jenn Quader sit down with influential guests who inspire, educate, and motivate people to build resilience, overcome hardships, positively impact their communities, and ultimately, help the world at large.
Jenn Quader (00:05)
Welcome to Resiliency, the podcast. Today's guest is no stranger to reinvention. And it's the kind of reinvention that takes a ton of resiliency and a lot of hard work.
His journey has taken him from dancing at the Moulin Rouge in Paris to owning a dance studio and co-authoring a textbook on ballroom dance called Gotta Ballroom to performing on touring Broadway shows. And it's here that his reinvention really shows. On a break from performing, he took a job as a doorman at global luxury retailer Van Cleef and Arpels. And from that small seed, he grew a career through which he trained on sales and management.
and then he himself became a global trainer for luxury teams throughout the world. Now today, he's an internationally recognized executive, leadership and performance coach, and he's a speaker and trainer whose philosophy blends deep empathy, sharp insight, and the ability to guide clients to distinguish ambition from validation, reactiveness from rhythm, and burnout from sustainable excellence.
He's also working on a forthcoming book called the EQ Dance, which you'll hear a little bit about, which is a powerful framework that brings rhythm, awareness, and emotional agility to leadership and life. He's an incredible coach, an incredible friend, I must say, and such a blessing to have him here on Resiliency, the podcast. Please welcome the multi-talented Mr. Chris George. Welcome, Chris.
Chris George (01:35)
Wow, thank you, Jenn. That guy sounds pretty cool. I'd like to meet him. I don't know who that is. But let's see if we can find out. There's a lot in there. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here with both of you. I've admired both of you, one of you for a very, very long time because we go way back. The other one, had the pleasure of meeting Kelly when I was with Jenn in Paris for her TEDx talk. And both of you...
were just brilliant in that. So I love what you're doing with this podcast. I love how that brought you together. And I love that it's bringing the three of us together now. So thank you for having me here today.
Kelly Culver (02:13)
We're delighted, absolutely delighted that you are a guest because you were there at the genesis of this idea. You know, at the very end of all of the speakers of the TED Talk, one of our colleagues was running around saying, we got to do a podcast. so Jenn and I, with ASF's help, have been able to articulate that and here we are. So I'm delighted to see you again. And I'm really thankful that you're here. And I'd like to ask you
Chris George (02:37)
Thank you. ⁓
Kelly Culver (02:41)
Because my gosh, have you ever done a lot of different things? What does, you know, it's crazy. What does resiliency mean to you?
Chris George (02:51)
So it's a very personal question, isn't it? Because it is different for everyone. So I love that you said to me, not what does it mean, but what does it mean to me? So when I hear the word, when people hear the word resilience, generally, they often think of toughness, resistance, pushing through, holding steady, not breaking, being tough. But for me, resilience is actually the opposite of that. our natural tendency is to resist.
And this isn't just psychological, it's biological. We crave being still, being comforted. We cling to what's familiar because it is comfortable for us. Even if it's uncomfortable feeling, it's familiar. It's better than stepping into the unknown for us. So resilience for me, instead of being hard and holding fast, it's more about adaptability.
the ability to stay present and to know that I have choice, to know that I can choose how I respond rather than how I react or just go on autopilot. Now, resilience can be grand. It depends on the moment. It depends on what life is calling for us, but it doesn't always have to be heroic or dramatic. It's something that I think about practicing quietly, if that makes sense.
in the ordinary, everyday, almost mundane moments, long before the pressure shows up, so that if I can build awareness and flexibility in those moments, I'm better prepared when life asks more of me. So that's the lens that I like to look at resilience through.
Jenn Quader (04:31)
I want to just comment on this a little bit before we start diving into your personal journey, which is so interesting and so varied and so resilient. But I really like your definition of how I see it as like releasing. You mentioned when things become stressful, people tend to tense up. There's a tightening. And ⁓ you need to release. And I'm going to say the weirdest thing. ⁓ So I have dogs. And you go through training when you have dogs. And a trainer once told us.
that if you happen to be out like at a park and a dog were to come over and bite you. said, do you know what to do? And I said, no, scream, cry, you know? But what they said is if a big dog comes at you, if you wanna survive that, you have to lean into the bite. You can't, if you pull away, the dog will lock its jaw and all of a sudden there's that tension that you're talking about.
But if you lean into it, which is completely the antithesis of what you think you'd want to do, that's how you can get it to release. So I find it so interesting that you're talking about that. And then in that example, because I can't even think of anyone who would have the wherewithal to lean into a dog bite. That sounds crazy. But you mentioned building habits. And I think that's one of the things I'll share with our listeners that I've had the opportunity to coach with Chris. I've used him as a coach for our company, the Smart Agency. And that's really one of the things that I think
he does really well, is help you to build habits that will allow you to learn how to soften. So I do have a question more about your personal journey, but I wanna kinda start since we're in this space of quiet resilience and we're in this space of loosening. And I wanna ask you, as you build daily habits around that, what can that look like? What can it look like to start building daily habits around quiet resilience and softening in the face of?
stress and challenge.
Chris George (06:24)
First, wanna say what a great metaphor that you used. That's a real life metaphor about the dog in our work together and just our lives together, just being friends. You are the queen of metaphors. They just flow out of you. So I love that metaphor that you used. It's really beautiful. It's not beautiful being bitten by a dog, but it's demonstration of what we're talking about here. So when we're talking about habits,
Jenn Quader (06:35)
Ha
Chris George (06:51)
Habits exist because we've built neurological pathways. It's what we do without thinking about doing them. In order to alter, change, or replace a habit that doesn't serve us, we have to be conscious of it. So the first thing we have to do is bring it into our consciousness. We have to say, okay, what am I doing? What am I actually doing? Then we have to decide, is it serving me?
And if it is serving you, awesome. If it's not serving you, okay, so what do want that's different? And the hardest thing that we do is we tell ourselves, don't do that. Don't bite my nails. Don't eat between meals and snack. Don't stay up until four in the morning scrolling through Instagram. Don't do it. But in the universe and in our lives, when we take something away, something needs to come in to fill that void.
So rather than tell ourselves what we don't want, we're so good at telling ourselves what we don't want. I don't want this, I don't want that, I don't want that, but what do I want? We have to start usually from what we don't want. So once we create that void, then we have to consciously say, so what do I actually want? What will I replace this habit with that will still give me what I need, what I want? The habit's giving you something. Every action is a strategy to get a need met. So first let's find out what need is it meeting?
Jenn Quader (07:54)
Bye.
Chris George (08:17)
Then if that habit doesn't serve the need, let's find a new habit that will serve the need. Let's practice it with intention so that we can create new neural pathways to then make that one our autopilot.
Jenn Quader (08:33)
love this idea of finding out what you want. I do want to let Dr. Kelly comment if she has some thoughts on that, because as you talk about neurological pathways and things, I think that ties to kind of the science of resilience. But I just want to comment on the... Okay, I'll say it this way. I've spent a lot of time with one of my dearest friends, and we say this in a bit of a laughing way, but we say, man, we live in a time where we have so many options.
We can do anything. We can have any career. can travel anywhere. We can go anywhere that we become paralyzed because we don't know what we want. So I think it's very interesting that you are not just saying don't do that. It's not about restriction. It's about finding that way forward. I want to let Dr. Kelly comment before I take us any further.
Kelly Culver (09:19)
I think the important thing around the finding the way forward, it's like to add one more layer to what you've just said, Chris around, we're really good at saying what we shouldn't do. You know, we're, all really good at that. It's also, we freeze. And that's what we need to release. So it isn't just that don't eat before, don't eat between meals, don't do this, don't do that. You have so many don'ts.
And then you have so many things coming at you, Jenn, your example to your example that you freeze. And when you freeze, there's no clarity or no intent that you're not living with intention. And resilience isn't just about helping you bounce back, it's helping you move forward and it's helping you through the fact that you're freezing. People forget that. And I think, the analogy I give, which I like maybe other people.
don't but I take you back to the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie with Calypso comes up with the maelstrom and they've to go through it, right? That's what resilience is. You can't tack around these things. You have to go through and you have to have the confidence and that does require us rewiring how we tend to behave and what our mindset is so that resilience is dynamic and dynamic within us.
Jenn Quader (10:38)
I love what you've said about intention. I think that that's the key, because once you add that intention and that purpose, from there the direction comes. And so I want to turn this back to Chris. And Chris, we'll kind of talk through two lenses. The first is your personal journey as someone who's reinvented yourself tremendously. And then of course, there's your coaching journey as you're helping other people reinvent. But we're going to look first at your personal journey. And as we look at what Dr. Kelly said about intention and moving forward and using that resilience,
I want to ask, how do you know when it's time to make a change? How do you know it's time to make that pivot? Because often that can be difficult for a lot of us to see in our lives.
Chris George (11:20)
So I want to answer that question in two ways. I want to answer it first about how do we know when it's time? And I'm going to look at it then from a personal story of a pivot that I made, how I didn't know, but somebody else knew and helped me through it. So pivoting with purpose really comes down to presence. It's slowing down.
and listening internally to my inner guide, not my inner critic. My inner critic is the one saying, don't, don't, you can't, don't do it. But my inner guide is telling me what's true, what's true to me. And if I really slow down enough to listen, I can usually sense the difference between temporary discomfort and deeper misalignment. Now, discomfort is often part of growth, growing pains.
not the sitcom, ⁓ growing pains. It's uncomfortable to grow. That's how we know we're growing. But misalignment feels different. It's persistent. It's quiet maybe, ⁓ but it's draining. And over time, I've learned that that clarity that we're looking for doesn't come from forcing decisions, but from paying attention to those internal signals.
instead of the external noise. Now, when staying put, I love how Kelly talked about ⁓ going through. We freeze, but we need to move through it. When staying put, sometimes is the right choice, but when staying put costs more than changing, if there's a greater cost to it, then that's usually my cue. There's a greater cost to inactivity, so something has to change. At that point, a
a pivot at that point, we might edit that out or we'll keep it. I don't know. I say let's keep it, it's real. ⁓ So at that point, ⁓ a pivot isn't impulsive. What it is is it's informed and it's less about certainty. I may not know, I may not be certain it's the right pivot, but it's aligned and then I do it. Now, what I wanna share with you, you mentioned
Jenn Quader (13:28)
It's real.
Chris George (13:47)
this journey that I've done with how I've pivoted through my life in many different ways. When I was at Van Cleef Arpels you said I started as a doorman. Okay, I was the doorman for three weeks for Christmas. I was an actor living in New York. I didn't have a ⁓ Christmas gig. And if you don't have one, Jenn, you know, you're not getting one because no one's auditioning during Christmas. They're all performing. So I had nothing to do. So I thought, well, I should get a job. I should do something to keep busy.
Jenn Quader (14:06)
Yup.
Chris George (14:14)
So I answered an ad for the doorman at Van Cleef and Harpels. Now I'd never been a doorman, but I was an actor. I can play a doorman. Okay, cool. So I auditioned for the role of doorman, if you will. So I went in and I went in and I had the talk with the people who were hiring the store director, the VP of retail, mean, to hire a doorman, something, right? They talked to about 10 to 15 minutes and they said, hey, there are two uniforms in that other room. Go see if one of them fits. One of them fit.
And they said, can you start tomorrow? I said, sure.
Jenn Quader (14:45)
Stop it. Can I interrupt
to say there was a costume fitting at your job interview? I just, that blows my mind. I never knew that part of the story. That's fascinating. There was a costume fitting. Thank you. On this season of Resilience to the Podcast, we're going to have a costume designer. So I'm just tying those threads together. Well done, Chris. Good job fitting in that suit.
Chris George (14:49)
You
Kelly Culver (14:51)
Ha ha ha!
Chris George (15:04)
And you said threads,
I love it. And you said threads. So there's the costume again. I love you. You're weaving it together. Ooh, another one. There we go. I never even considered that it was a costume fitting, but it was, isn't that funny? my God. You're adding another layer to this story that I've told so many times and now I'm gonna add that to it. Thank you. So yeah, so it fit, the costume fit, so to speak. And I did my three week gig. New Year's Eve, I was done. The next week, I called them.
I was like, I have nothing to lose. don't have anything. My agent had nothing for me. I called him, hey, anything else I can do? Sure, why don't you come do some filing for a week? That week turned into a few weeks. I was starting to audition and I said, thank you, peace out. It's been fun. They said, hey, can you still come in on your own terms? You can log your hours as you come and go when you want. And I'm like, okay, perfect temp job for an actor. Log my hours as I want, go when I want. So I did
And then they offered me a permanent position. And I said, no, thank you, I'm an actor. And then I came back and I said, what did I say no to, just so I know? And then they explained it to me.
Jenn Quader (16:13)
You got Dr. Kelly on that one. you weren't
watching, if you're just listening, Dr. Kelly cracked up at that, just so you know.
Chris George (16:20)
Well, wanted to know, what did I say no to? I didn't even know what I said no to. Let's find out. And they said, well, we wanted you to be the assistant to the number one and number two sales associates in the US. They're number one and three in the world. And I thought, oh, well, that sounds cool. Great, I'll take the job. And in the back of my head, and I'll give you my two weeks notice when I get my Broadway show. Spoiler alert, I never got on Broadway. I did Broadway national tours, I never got on Broadway. So I did the job.
And I fell in love with it. I was like, oh wow, this is a really cool universe I knew nothing about. And I was learning so much. And then my director, I was on the national tour of the Full Monty with Jenn. That's how we met. It was love at first sight. We loved each other the moment we met and we were.
Jenn Quader (17:03)
That's right!
We did, were roommates on tour. were the dearest,
we've been the dearest of friends ever since.
Chris George (17:14)
And we've both pivoted quite a bit in different ways. And now our pivots have brought us together. Isn't that so cool? This story's long. I'm so sorry. Let me see if I can get to the point. So the point ⁓ is, I was with them for a very long time and I got a call from our director ⁓ from Full Monty said he was doing Full Monty at a regional theater. Sally Struthers was in it. Adrian Zmed was playing my role. He had to go shoot a TV pilot. Can you come in and fill in for a week? I haven't done the show in two years. I don't know. Can I?
So I asked at work, they said, you can, I did it. I had a great time. But, because that's my favorite role I've ever done is Harold Nichols in the Full Monty, one of my absolute favorite roles. But in that moment, our friend Joe Coots our dear departed Joe Coots, my gosh, who was brilliant and such a great friend for both of us. But he said to me, did you make a decision? Did you make a mistake taking that job at Van Cleef and Arpels? And I said,
no, actually, I'm glad I took it and I'm glad I took this job because I'm making a decision right now. I'm leaving acting. That was my swan song. I'm not looking anymore. I found something different that I love. And in that moment, I made that pivot.
Jenn Quader (18:32)
Chris, what you've talked about and thank you for sharing such a personal story because I think what you're talking about in that pivot and in that moment, what I see in that is interconnectivity. So you talked in the beginning about listening to that inner guide inside and having enough.
presence and enough pause that when we need to be resilient that we can hear what we want inside. But then there's that added layer which is that we are in a world full of people and there's so there's data everywhere that shows how interconnected we are that like when a big huge climate event happens people physically react that are near. I mean there there's so much that proves we are interconnected and so what I'm interested in from this is first of all just notating the the interconnectivity of
It was you having a friend, a dear friend, who asked the right question. And that then pivots me to the importance of having people in our lives. You also talked about ⁓ your mentor and sponsor at Van Cleef & Arpels, who really pushed you forward in this career. And I think this, I think dovetails really beautifully into this next stage of your life, which is a coaching business. ⁓ Because in this stage, you are...
Asking these questions and being that mentor to people and also helping people learn to do that to others So, I want to I want to get started looking at your coaching business ⁓ Because that is what you're doing now You're coaching leaders of organizations leaders of teams all over the US and I want to know if one of the things we see a lot is people who are stuck in dr Kelly talked about this she talked about being paralyzed and a lot of times that is fear doubt or overthinking
Those are the things that really stick people. So I wanna ask you, know, pivoting to this idea of you learned how to pivot yourself and now you help others, how do you help someone else make that leap, especially if it's a big irreversible decision, how do you help them prepare to move through with courage and clarity?
Chris George (20:33)
I love that you mentioned irreversible decisions. And ⁓ when someone's making a big decision in their lives, especially one that could feel overwhelming, you talked about overwhelm, the first thing we do is we want to slow down the moment and invite perspective taking. So I often start by introducing a distinction between what is a decision that is reversible versus irreversible. Let's start there. Let's slow down. Let's go back to just slow your roll.
So ⁓ let's talk a bit about what those mean so we have some context for your listeners. So a reversible decision is one that you can take back, you can change, you can adjust, you can course correct, you can recover from it without any long-term consequence. The cost of being wrong is relatively low. You learn by doing, ⁓ what is that? Things like trying a new role or a new project, ⁓ changing a routine or a habit like we talked about, testing an idea before you fully implement it.
Now, an irreversible decision carries more weight. It meaningfully changes your path. It's something that is like leaving a long-term career without a safety net, either ending or starting a significant partnership, a marriage, wherever it might be, packing up and moving your family across the country. These are significant, potentially irreversible decisions. And the cost of being wrong
wrong is relatively high. You could adapt afterwards, sure, that's what resilience is about and for, but you can't fully undo it. And so it demands, it invites, depending on your lens, more presence, more intention. So just making that distinction can reduce fear, not maybe not take it away, but reduce it. It gives us perspective because
Most of the decisions that we overthink, that we ruminate over, are actually reversible, but we're treating them like they're irreversible. So it's, I invite people to just look at it differently. And then from there, the work becomes about clarity before courage. We're not ready to say, okay, now what am gonna do? We've just identified what are we looking at? What did I say no to? That kind of a thing, right? We're back to that again. So I often describe
overthinking as like having a ball of yarn in your head, right? And you're turning it over, it's tangled. The more you turn it over, the more tangled it gets. You can't see it and you pull harder, kind of like the dog thing you talk, we pull harder, we pull harder, but we can't let go. We can't do anything about it because we can't see it. So I invite people then to acknowledge there's a ball of yarn, then invite them to, okay, let's take it out. Let's unwind it gently so we can see the entire string.
Now, we can get some clarity. We can start looking at it and go, okay, what is this? We can really notice what's going on beneath the noise, whether it's internal or external noise. And then once we have that clarity, we can separate imagined outcomes from what's really real, what's actually happening, what are the facts? And then we can reconnect with somebody wants to be. Not what they want to do yet. Who do I want to be?
then who do I want to be can help me decide what do I want to do. What I want to do sometimes takes away who we are, takes away our values, it takes away who we are. We have to reconnect to our core. And courage doesn't necessarily mean I'm certain. I think that's an important thing. Fear doesn't necessarily disappear, but it becomes workable. From there, we're more able to take conscious intentional action, even when the decision is big.
And even if we're not certain about what will happen, what the outcome will be. And that's what we do in the work is slow down. Let's just slow down for a moment before we speed up. It's changing our rhythm. Life has a rhythm and it's not always a perfect cadence. And let's recognize that. And sometimes when it's going like this, we have to go, whoa, let's come back a second. Let's do a slower foxtrot versus a quick mazurka or whatever it might be.
Kelly Culver (24:56)
I want to stay here. We have to stay here just for a second. So the the ⁓ I'm not going to use the same words that you use, but like the deliberate decision, the decision that could have bigger consequences, you had a better phrase than what I've just said. Makes me think of we get stuck sometimes as people in the in the dissonance between perception and perspective.
Chris George (24:59)
Hmm.
Jenn Quader (25:20)
Hmm.
Kelly Culver (25:22)
And that's where we start to overthink, right? And that then takes us back from the the analogy you gave us take the yarn out and let's look at it out, you know, unravel it and let's see from end to end, what are we really dealing with? And what are we really looking at with the consequences and the opportunities for that? We talk here on resiliency, the podcast that resilience is a state of being. You have to understand that before you can do
And that comes back to the intention piece. I love this analogy that you've given. It is so meaningful and impactful. So folks, replay this piece that Chris has just said. If you didn't get it, go do a do-over, because it is super important.
Chris George (26:12)
Thanks, Kelly. Yeah, I want to comment on that, Kelly. I love what you've added to that. The words you've added, my words aren't better. They're just different. And your words help ⁓ give us a different perspective. And there's that perspective again. And we sometimes have to hear things a different way. And that's what we do in my work sometimes. Like I'll say, I'll hold some of the vision. I say, OK, look at this. I'm not advertising this. I get no kickback. I'll hold an object here. I'll say, OK, look at it this way.
Jenn Quader (26:12)
couldn't agree more. Go ahead, Kelly, or Carly and Chris.
Chris George (26:41)
Now let's turn it and look at it this way. What if I hold it back here? What if I take the cap off? Now how do we see it differently? What if we look at it this way? What if I open the lip balm more? So we invite perspective taking and I love perception perspective. I love the words that you use. And it's really just getting people thinking more and thinking better, thinking differently, not thinking more. We don't want to overthink.
Jenn Quader (27:07)
like, I feel like I'm being coached in this session, which is beautiful because what I, because I'm seeing these things in what you're saying, which is often, and I'll just speak for myself, but perhaps there are other leaders out there like this. What I asked myself was, what do need to do? You know, there's a challenge here. What do I need to do? And I love how you said earlier, courage cannot come before clarity. And I would say I'm a.
prime suspect of being like, let's jump. And it's like, well, did you look? simple and yet the most powerful thing to take that moment and to look it out and to chart it out. it really, it could not be a better connection for the work like Kelly does. Because Dr. Kelly has a company called Resilience Nexus and they focus on organizational and corporate resilience.
And I can imagine that you're walking into boardrooms, Kelly, and I'd say boardrooms, she also works with governments and, you know, the prime minister of companies, or excuse me, of countries. But I can imagine when you're walking into those places that they're like, well, this is how we do it. This is what we do. And you're having to show them that lip balm that Chris just showed us and say, well, let's look at it from these other perspectives because things are different. Things have changed. And I think, you what do they say? Change is the only constant.
Kelly Culver (28:07)
Always.
Jenn Quader (28:21)
and people don't want to acknowledge that. So I find it extremely valuable.
Chris George (28:26)
I love that Jenn, things have changed, but I don't see that something has changed unless somebody helps me see it sometimes.
Kelly Culver (28:33)
but we're like
that. Look, we're like that. We're humans. We're hardwired that way. We're hardwired to be social. And we're also hardwired not to see the tree that's standing right in front of me like this. You know, it just happens. You walk past like it just happens. And so if you're helping people have some of that clarity, and give them a radar, because I'm hearing a bit of you know, you're helping them see signals they might not otherwise see or want to acknowledge, then you're really powerfully changing.
or helping someone on a change journey. It's great.
Chris George (29:04)
And I think it's impossible
to note too that I don't tell them what to do. As a coach, people don't sometimes have the distinction between a coach, a mentor, an advisor, a consultant, et cetera. But as a coach, they sometimes can be thinking, tell me what to do. That's not what we're going to do. Because what I think you should do is not what you think you should do. If it's not tied to your purpose, your values, what's important to you, and I may have an answer. And my clients surprise me. They come up with answers that I'm like, I never would have thought of that.
Kelly Culver (29:08)
No.
Chris George (29:33)
but it's true for them. So that's the right answer for them. So my job is not to tell, it's to ask. I ask questions to help them find what they think. Now, do I sometimes take my coach hat off and switch lanes and say, now let me tell you what I think? Yes, if it's welcome. And if I offer it without attachment, I'm gonna offer something, take it if you will.
Maybe it'll help spur you onto something else, but some of these people are stuck and they can't think of something. Then I'll signal, okay, now I'm putting my coach back on. What does that inspire inside of you? So while I'm not telling and it's not didactic, I would be doing my clients a disservice if I know something or think something or I sense something and I withhold it. So I can't do that. It's again, being present and knowing when is it time to do that without attachment.
Kelly Culver (30:25)
So let's stay here just for a minute and let me ask you a question around leading. Because you're talking about coaching, mentoring, advising, know, there are elements of leadership there. So how do you, how have you learned through your practice the kind of resilience it takes to lead authentically? Especially when the world and your clients expect you to be strong for them.
Chris George (30:46)
Wow,
that's pretty powerful. And I love the keyword and that is authentically, isn't it? You know, I've been a leader, I've led teams, I've been led as well. So I've experienced it from both perspectives. And for me, authentic leadership requires a different kind of resilience than we often talk about.
We don't always have to know. And I think as a leader, we think we have to know. We have to have the answer. People are looking to us for the answers. They're looking to us for that. there's an, I work a lot in the world of emotional intelligence. I'm a certified emotional intelligence coach and practitioner. It's what really spurred me into this world of coaching. And Jenn, you were there for the beginning of that journey. Strength, sorry, go ahead.
Jenn Quader (31:36)
Yes, sorry, go ahead.
I was just gonna say yes, and I thought maybe you were gonna give me all the answers, and then it turned out you asked me a bunch of questions. It was all very useful. But continue.
Chris George (31:50)
So
strength doesn't, let's look at it from the emotional intelligence perspective, strength doesn't mean emotional suppression. It doesn't mean I can't experience emotions. We are human, as you said, Kelly. We experience emotions. Let's recognize them. Let's acknowledge them. It doesn't mean I have to suppress those emotions. It doesn't require having everything figured out.
So the leaders who sustain trust over time are the ones who can recognize what emotions are coming up. They recognize that they are human and don't collapse under the weight of being human. They regulate, I think of it as they regulate rather than perform.
They recover rather than striving for perfection. And this was a lesson I had to learn because perfection can be paralyzing. That's freeze. If it's not perfect, I can't do it. It reminds me of when I was in third grade and we were learning how to write cursive. Do they still teach cursive in school? I bet they don't. They don't, do they? So no, thank you. Yeah, so kids today are not struggling with that thing that I had in third grade. But here's what it was. They would bring in the TV and we would watch the show and
Kelly Culver (32:53)
not here.
Jenn Quader (32:53)
Come to my
house, I'll teach you cursive. I think it's very important, but continue.
Chris George (33:05)
the lady would, I can still picture her, they would teach us how to write cursive. And I was a true perfectionist. I couldn't do it exactly right. I would break down. I started crying one day in third grade because she went to the next thing and I haven't finished getting the curve on my C or something, whatever it was. And I cried, I broke down right there in the class. And my teacher was so kind and so empathetic and helped me through that. Now,
There are times in our lives, I, because I struggle with that perfection, and I'm sure many leaders do, where we want to break down because we can't get it perfect. It's being able to accept that it may not always be perfect. It reminds me of a book that I love so much. Jenn, you and I have talked about this book before, The Four Agreements by Del McGill Ruiz, and one of the four agreements is always do your best, and your best will change from day to day. As long as I can remember that I did my best,
My best is good enough sometimes. So this kind of resilience where we self-regulate these emotions, it's quiet, it's grounded, and most importantly, it's sustainable and something that I can give my teams or leaders can give their teams because it gives permission to stay engaged even through uncertainty. It was a long way to get there, but I hope that was helpful.
Kelly Culver (34:26)
No, it's perfect. Go ahead, Jenn.
Jenn Quader (34:29)
I was gonna say tremendously perfect because again, you're tying it back to what we all need. we're in a world where whether you are working in a corporate office or whether you are at home taking care of kids, you are going to experience emotions. And I always like to point out that we're in a world where, okay, this is what I've always thought. Like back in the day, you would go to work and like you'd walk into work. It was almost like that movie, Severance.
you know, or that TV show Severance, you'd go to work and you were at work. You know what I mean? Like you just zip around, do your thing. Well, today I can be at work and I can like just pop open my phone and my dad can tell me someone passed away in my hometown. And I can see that news. There's no filter. There's no way to compartmentalize and say, well, I'm at work. I can't take that emotion right now. Right? So to me, there's a much higher need for this type of emotional intelligence.
When you are in this world of pink, as Dr. Kelly would put them in her TEDx, speak of pings and pongs or pink, you know, we're in all these pings, we're in all of these notifications, and we have to learn how to manage that. Now that's a perfect segue into you are working on a new book series that's called the EQ Dance. And for those who don't know EQ is like, it's emotional intelligence, like IQ, EQ. ⁓ Can you share what does the EQ dance mean? And how's it gonna help people to build these things you're talking about?
an internal presence, this internal alignment that's going to fuel resilience for them.
Chris George (35:59)
Yeah, you've nailed what the book is about. It's a book series. I'm writing the first book currently right now, and it's tentatively entitled, The EQ Dance, How to Pause, Reflect, and Choose with Clarity and Calm. Now, there's how-to in the title, but it's not technically do this, do this, do this. It's through story. It's through...
Helping the reader see themselves first. The second book is more about connection, the EQ dance of connection. So now how does this go outward into the world? And the third book I'm envisioning is the EQ dance at work. So how do we show up as leaders with emotional intelligence and use this? So the EQ dance is built on the idea that emotional effectiveness isn't about control, it's about rhythm.
so I use this metaphor.
of dance, like a dance, this requires awareness, timing, adjustment. You don't dominate it, you stay in relationship with what's happening in the moment. So at its core, this work about the EQ dance ⁓ is really for people who function well on the outside, but feel the cost of moving too fast on the inside. And they want a different relationship with that pace.
So rather than fighting emotions, et cetera, we can go deeper into it, but read the book when it comes out. ⁓ It's gonna be a book. There's a complimentary keynote that goes with it that can be adapted from a 15 minute TED-style talk to a 60 minute keynote if we want. But basically, the way I see it, I'm gonna say it this way. Most people aren't falling apart, right? They're just running internally at a pace that just isn't sustainable.
And the EQ dance is about helping people recognize first, what pace am I running at? Let me be aware of it. And I tell personal stories. One of them starts with, I once yelled at the back of somebody's head, and not my proudest moment. And we go into that, do you recognize yourself in this moment? And that's what this work is about, is do you recognize yourself? life is messy.
We don't always have the answer. There's rupture, there's realization, and then there's choice. Can I make a choice even through uncertainty on how I want to show up differently? And that's what this work is about, essentially.
Jenn Quader (38:24)
Well, and I'm really drawn to the rhythm, to the pace, you know, someone who will definitely is in your target audience, as someone who, you know, we're functioning, we're all going, but there are costs to going so fast. And there are costs at the personal level, and then there are costs at the global level, you know. Dr. Kelly and I talk a lot with different guests here about people who kind of ignore signals or don't look at things because they just don't have time.
they're prioritizing other things. So I find that really, really important to start thinking about the pace and rhythm of life. And I also, ⁓ I'll just comment on the fact that I think your work does a really good job. You when I hear emotional intelligence, I think about the emotions and think about the brain, but I think your work does a good job of being physiological in looking at how emotions manifest in the body and how you can handle those. And again, that ties in with dance. So I think that, ⁓
Boy, what you've given us is a beautiful introduction to having you on the show again, because we're gonna have to have an episode two where you take us through the EQ dance. But I think today, it's been a beautiful look at how to pivot, how to make those choices, and really how to get clear and conscious. So what I wanna ask before we go into our favorite part, which is rapid fire questions, is is there anything we didn't ask today that you would really want the resiliency of the podcast audience to know and hear from you as of today?
Chris George (39:52)
There's one thing, and it's about the two of you. You know, I mentioned earlier that resilience doesn't look the same for everyone. And I was so impressed with both of your TEDx talks because they were so different, very different. And your energies are different. Jenn, your energy, at least what you show, I know you differently as well, because I know you personally, but the energy that you show to the world is very bold, loud, large.
And your talk was about that, walking confidently in the wrong direction. Kelly, the energy that I get from you is quiet, reserved, a quiet strength, a quiet energy. And even in your TEDx talk, it wasn't loud and huge and big. It was very small and focused and big topic, but in a different way. And I think something that I'd like to highlight is the contrast that we can have. It's not the same for everyone.
And it's important that you recognize that you don't need to be like someone else to be resilient. Find your own resilience. Find your path that's true for you with your values. And the two of you are a perfect example of that. And a wonderful compliment to each other for this podcast because of that, you're showing two different sides.
Jenn Quader (41:16)
We love you, Chris. I will only comment that we are an imperfect example because like everyone else, and back to your idea of the sweet little Chris who cried at cursive, we are imperfect in every way and that's what makes us so beautiful because you are right, resilience looks different on everyone. On Kelly, it looks like a red dress. On me, it looks like a big, bold, blue suit. It looks different.
Kelly Culver (41:17)
You
Chris George (41:17)
You
Jenn Quader (41:42)
but it feels right to you and that's where the authenticity comes in. And that's what I think you, Chris George, are able to help people find. You found it for yourself first and that's the journey, right? That's the hero's story. The hero's story is that he goes and finds it for himself and then he shares the wealth with others. You went and found for yourself how to navigate this life of resilience, how to slow it down, how to get clear, how to make a choice before you show courage.
and now you're helping others. I'm inspired by it. I'm grateful for you being here. I'm ready for rapid fires. What do you guys think?
Chris George (42:12)
Well, I have one thing to say before that, if that's okay. I love that you said not perfect. It's never perfect. If we seek perfection, we're done growing. Let's search for excellence for growth. And when you say I found it, I didn't find it. I'm still finding it. I still fall down. That's okay. But I'm finding different ways to get up faster. So I wanna clarify with that or add onto that. And I'd love to come back by also, can we just do this once a week? Just talk to each other? Because I love.
Jenn Quader (42:14)
Please, of course.
Kelly Culver (42:39)
Hahaha!
Chris George (42:42)
You're, the two of you together, it's, woo, this is fun.
Jenn Quader (42:46)
It's a joy, it's a joy.
Chris George (42:47)
And I will even mention, I know he likes to be in the background, but your executive producer and your husband Asef when we had a pre-interview to prep for this, I said, wow, I wish this were the podcast too, because he has such great questions and we had such a great time talking. So the four of us need to do this sometimes.
Kelly Culver (42:48)
we have.
Jenn Quader (43:04)
it is time. Chris George, are you ready?
Kelly Culver (43:05)
Okay. Yes.
Chris George (43:08)
Okay, yeah, sure.
Jenn Quader (43:10)
Dr. Kelly,
Kelly Culver (43:11)
Well, yeah,
Jenn Quader (43:11)
rapidly fire.
Kelly Culver (43:13)
he doesn't have a choice. So Chris, what's your favorite movie or TV show that makes you feel resilient?
Chris George (43:19)
Okay, whenever I ask about a movie, I will always mention Auntie Mame because it's my favorite movie of all time with Rosalind Russell. So I'm gonna work Auntie Mame into my answer. It is the answer for everything. There we go.
Jenn Quader (43:30)
I would like to still focus and simply say that I played Auntie Mame in high school as my senior year musical. Yes, I did. I have video performance that I'll show you at our next slumber party.
Chris George (43:37)
Stop it.
⁓ my gosh, I love that. Okay, so it's the Roslyn Russell version. ⁓ What I love and why, because what I love is how Mame's resilience evolves. At first, Mame models what we think of as classic resilience. There's grit, there's toughness, there's facing adversity head on. I know the answers, I'm moving on. But as the story unfolds, we see something deeper. We see her soften, we see her sensitivity, her care for others, her emotional growth. ⁓
Kelly Culver (43:42)
my God. Okay.
Chris George (44:09)
it becomes relational. It's not just individual, it's communal. And there's also a beautiful optimism in her character. It's not just believing that things will be okay, but actively taking steps to make something happen. And that blend of mindset and action is what makes resilience feel alive inside of me. It's not just thinking about it, it's doing it. And this movie reminds me that resilience does not have to be hard.
that often is deeper and softer than we think it might be.
Kelly Culver (44:42)
I'm almost afraid to ask you what about your favorite song that makes you feel resilient?
Chris George (44:48)
Well, you shouldn't be afraid, but Jenn should be afraid.
Kelly Culver (44:50)
Alright, alright, tell me, moi.
Jenn Quader (44:54)
Drum roll.
Chris George (44:54)
Okay,
so brace yourself because I'm going to mention not one, I'm going to mention two songs and they're written by Stephen Sondheim.
Kelly Culver (44:59)
Okay.
Jenn Quader (45:02)
⁓ okay. I mean,
he is brilliant. He is, I will, I do not negate that he is brilliant. It's just not my favorite. Sorry, continue.
Chris George (45:09)
I know,
Jenn, you and I have very different views on Sondheim and that's okay. ⁓ So the one song that really speaks to me about resilience is from Into the Woods and it's called Moments in the Woods. ⁓ The Baker's wife sings that I got to see the original Broadway production with Joanna Gleason and she was brilliant. And there's a line in it that says,
even now and then a bad one, but if life were only moments, then you'd never know you had one. And for me, that's about presence, being in the moment, staying awake inside the ordinary, the mundane, the complicated moments instead of just chasing only the highs. And then the other one is from Follies. ⁓ It's I'm Still Here. The title itself talks about resilience, doesn't it? This song was written for Yvonne DeCarlo.
who originated the role of Carlotta in the show. ⁓ people know her as Lily Munster from the Munsters, but she was a brilliant musical theater actress. And there's a line, it starts with good times and bum times. I've seen them all and my dear, I'm still here. And it's a fabulous song that goes through what she's been through, how her career has changed, whatever's happened, and she's gotten through it.
Jenn Quader (46:05)
right.
Chris George (46:23)
And this song feels about resilience over time, staying in relationship with your life through change, through loss, through reinvention. And so these two songs together, for me, remind me that it's not just about getting through the moment, but it's about staying present in the moment and staying standing over time. And so these two songs, for me, are just brilliant for me about resilience.
I love those, both of those songs. I love both of those performances.
Jenn Quader (46:55)
and Joanna Gleason's amazing. Go, Kelly, sorry.
Kelly Culver (46:56)
And well, no,
no, no. And the fact that you've taken the time to explain why, because a lot of people don't do that. So I'm glad that you've done that. Now I want to ask you the next question. Yeah. Yeah, but still.
Jenn Quader (47:03)
Beautiful.
Chris George (47:05)
Well, I have to say I explained why because people probably have no idea what those songs are or those musicals. I think a lot of people probably
mentioned common songs that are now their anthems or their pop. And so I thought I needed to give some context maybe.
Kelly Culver (47:15)
Yeah,
yeah from time to time they do but we you know we'll be surprised you know we have people who talk about classical music you know yeah yeah right what's the last thing that made you laugh like really super laugh
Jenn Quader (47:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Chris George (47:30)
this conversation. So, but apart from that, ⁓ I love classic sitcoms. And just like I will always mention Auntie Mame, if I get a chance, I will always mention my favorite sitcom, which is The Dick Van Dyke Show. It's the perfect sitcom. No matter how many times I see it, I laugh. It's not the most recent thing that made me laugh. I'm currently rewatching Bewitched. I'm in season two. I'm still in black and white. Tabatha was just born. ⁓ Agnes Moorhead as Endora.
Kelly Culver (47:32)
Stop it. Okay.
my word.
Chris George (47:58)
just makes me lose it. I just love her. She's brilliant. Now, I think part of the reason why I like these classic sitcoms is because how formulaic they are. They're comforting. In 30 minutes, there's a problem. Some chaos ensues. There's a tidy resolution. We tied up a nice neat little bow. Is it realistic? No. Is it comforting? Absolutely. So there's something hopeful about knowing that ⁓ things can get messy and still be okay. So I think that's why I like these classic sitcoms. I go back to...
life is going to be okay, even though it's crazy.
Kelly Culver (48:32)
And my last question for you is what is a question you'd like to leave for future guests?
Chris George (48:38)
So since we're talking a lot about presence, awareness, slowing down, So my question would be, how do you intentionally lean into presence and awareness in everyday moments so that resilience becomes something normal, not reserved for hardship?
Jenn Quader (48:44)
PIVOT!
Chris George (48:58)
or something extraordinary. Has that question been posed before?
Kelly Culver (49:01)
my gosh. No,
and it is so brilliant. wow.
Jenn Quader (49:06)
Oh,
this is resilience as a state of being as formed as a question. This is why you coach with Chris George Coaching. Wow. You just took all three seasons of Resilience Through the Podcast and you were like, let me just put it in a question for you. Well done. Well done. Okay. I have one question for you that was left from a past guest. And that question is this. How much of where you got is by design and how much of it was luck?
Chris George (49:21)
Thank you.
I would say 10 % was design and 90 % was luck.
but 100 % of it is being aware of the luck that's being presented.
Kelly Culver (49:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jenn Quader (49:49)
I think that's brilliant.
what you're acknowledging is I am a small piece within this grand scheme that is life. You know, that's what you're saying, is that life is light. And I always say to my team at the Smart Agency, I say, guys, we are an ocean. That is what our company is. The tides will move in, the tides will move out. Sometimes it'll be choppy. Sometimes it'll be smooth sailing. But we are an ocean. And I think what you're saying here is, yeah.
I put in a good solid amount, a good, as we've talked here today, a gentle amount of resilience that is consistent. And I've done the work to have that 10%. And then I let life take me. And I would say too, acknowledging where life takes you, which I think is a big part of what I've heard from you is every question that we've asked, you've said, you have to stop and look at it first. So I...
I could not be more enamored with everything that we've learned from you. I'm sure our listeners are dying to know, and so I'd like to ask you, Chris, where can our listeners find you? If they'd like to learn more, read more, hear more, coach with you, any of those things, how can they find you online and connect with you?
Chris George (50:54)
Yeah, so thanks so much, Jenn. So a good place to start is my website, ⁓ www.chrisgeorgecoaching.com. That's a good starting place. ⁓ I am on two socials. I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn, at Chris George Coaching on both of those. ⁓ Or on LinkedIn, you might have to, I think you can type in at Chris George Coaching, or you can type in Chris George PCC, which is professional certified coach, one of those two ways.
So I think those are the two ways, the three ways, my website, Instagram, and LinkedIn. I don't post a lot. I post when I have something meaningful to say. So you're not gonna see 49 posts a day. You're gonna see, ⁓ I have something I wanna say now. I'm gonna say it.
Jenn Quader (51:34)
I invite anyone who's interested to follow Chris online in addition to coaching and insights. He also does a lot of world travel and he posts a lot of beautiful photos. ⁓ Chris, we cannot thank you enough for bringing your beautiful energy, your expertise on emotional intelligence and just you, the beauty that is you to this podcast. Thank you again. For all of our listeners, I wanna say thank you so much for being here. If resiliency is something you are looking for, if you want to create that habit,
to make resilience a state of being for yourself, please subscribe to our podcast, like this episode anywhere we are and keep coming back. we exist to share stories, strategies and inspiration that help us all.
to overcome challenges, to embrace change, and to redefine resilience in this ever-evolving world. We're so grateful to have you. You can always find me online, Jenn Quader J-E-N-N-Q-U-A-D-E-R, on all the socials, or my company, The Smart Agency. Our dear, wonderful, brilliant co-host, Dr. Kelly Culver, find her on LinkedIn or Instagram, or at her company, theculvergroup.ca. And my friends, stay strong, stay clear, get that ball of yarn out of your head, and let it just stretch out.
because this is a great, beautiful time of resilience. We wish you resilience, we wish you strength, we thank you for being here and we'll see you next time on Resiliency, the podcast.