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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
KALEY OLSON:
Hi friends. Thanks for tuning into the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host Kaylee Olson, and I'm here today with my co-host Meredith Brock.
MEREDITH BROCK:
Hey Kaley.
KALEY:
Hi.
MEREDITH:
Today we are gonna hear from our friend Megan Fate Marshman. Um, she's been on the podcast before, but just in case you need a reminder of who she is.
MEREDITH:
Megan is an author, a bible teacher who holds a doctorate of ministry and teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. She is an absolute. Powerhouse you guys. Yeah. And her joy for the Lord and his word is it really, honestly, it's evident from the moment you speak to her. Mm-hmm. And I am so excited for you to hear her message today because she is gonna touch on a passage of scripture that maybe sometimes makes those of us who are familiar with scripture a little bit nervous.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
She's gonna talk about the narrow road.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
And the wide road. Um, and what it really means to walk and know Jesus and for Jesus to know you.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
So there's a lot here. There's a lot to uncover. Yeah. And I am so excited for you to listen.
KALEY:
Yeah. Uh, it was such a good episode. And Meredith, I'm so grateful to sit under the teaching we get to hear every single time we record one of these podcasts. And I know God is so kind to speak to me each time in a personal way. And I think based on what you took away, I know he has done the same for you. And if you know that God has worked. In your life without a doubt. You're like, I know he is working and you want him to work through you, like you've got a story to share with somebody that you know can, can impact their faith and that it's just too good to keep to yourself, but maybe you don't know where to start. Then come to our annual She Speaks conference this summer. It's July 16th through 18th. It's gonna be in Charlotte, North Carolina. I am so excited for it. One reason is because our friend Megan Fate, Marshman is going to be there and she is going to be speaking. But so many other women are going to encourage you in the calling that God has placed in your life.
KALEY:
And so I don't have any more time to talk about it, but I do wanna say go to She Speaks conference.com or click the link in our show notes below. To learn more about it. Alright, friends, let's dive into today's episode.
MEREDITH:
Megan, we are so excited to have you on the show today. Thanks for calling in all the way from Sunny California. I wish I was there. Is it nice there? Is it nice there?
MEGAN FATE MARSHMAN:
Right now it is 85 degrees. Yes.
KALEY:
That sounds nice. But it's like a California 85 degrees, which I've heard is different than a sweltering –
MEREDITH:
Humid.
KALEY:
Sweaty, humid North Carolina 85 degrees.
MEREDITH:
Yeah. So there's like no sweat on your upper lip right now.
MEGAN FATE MARSHMAN:
It is, you know. No, there's not. And I'm sitting in a beautiful air conditioner and I feel like I should. Stop bragging on where I live, just in order to limit envy, which is a sin.
MEREDITH:
Yes.
MEGAN:
In the, in the, you should in the hearts of others
KALEY:
We're not even a minute into the podcast, and Megan's already just going for it.
MEREDITH:
I love it.
KALEY:
Talking about sin, oh goodness. Well, we are really excited that you're back today. Um, the last time I recorded a podcast with you, I think it was 2024, and you were actually here in the studio with us at Proverbs 31 at our headquarters. And that day was memorable for me for two reasons. First, you were so cold speaking of hot.
KALEY:
You were so cold that day that I gave you a really ugly snuggy to wear. But by the end of the recording you were sweating. So, um, but it would, you were so, uh, locked into the recording that you couldn't take it off, and it just made me laugh the whole time. Um, and I just appreciate how funny you are. But secondly, um, I remember the message you shared was from your book Relaxed, and I just remember leaving that teaching, envisioning the concept of God's posture being relaxed and not rushed and stressed and overwhelmed or even impatient. And that really impacted me. And I think, um, even the way that you carry yourself, Megan, I mean, we haven't been on this podcast recording for not five minutes now and even the posture that you have just audibly right now shows how much you really have taken what you've learned there to heart. So thank you for sharing with us that time a couple of years ago. But today, I'm really excited because we get the pleasure of hearing you teach again and sounds like God has given you something really fresh to be able to share with us and our listeners.
KALEY:
And so with that, why don't you take it away?
MEGAN:
Yeah, I, for context sake. I wonder about everyone listening in what the driving aim of their life is. And I recognize as I say that it reminds me of, um, my late husband who went to heaven five years ago. He, uh, used to call me a level jumper. What that meant was I would go from, Hey, how's your day to, what's the driving aim of your life?
MEGAN:
And he used to tell me it'd be better just to, you know, walk with people there instead of leap down to the cauldron, uh, and expect people to jump too. And yet. In life, I feel like ever since Randy went to heaven, it's those types of questions that I care about. And anyone that's been through grief knows that suddenly you care a lot about things that matter and you stop caring about things that don't.
MEGAN:
And that's an odd superpower that I am also fully aware of, that we would give back if we could in order to have life in front of us. So, but with the superpower, I'm gonna go with it. And because I can, um, I to update on context since even 2024, last time I was on the program. Is since then, I met someone who I am now engaged to and two months away from marrying.
MEGAN:
And I say all that one to know, like this content deeply matters. And not only am I marrying someone, I'm marrying someone with two kids. So suddenly my two boys jumped to four. And this question of what the driving aim of your life is. Matters significantly as my family expands. And I think that happens, right?
MEGAN:
If whether someone goes from zero to one kids or someone goes from single to married or someone goes from, um, having the people around them to loss or grief, like whenever life jumps or shifts, I think it's an odd opportunity we might as well take advantage of to answer questions like that. The driving aim of your life, and I, when I think about what I long for, not just in the man that I'm marrying and our relationship, but also the family we're cultivating and the friendships were cultivating and blending. Fa we're blending everything you can imagine. Hmm. And so this question matters to me, and it matters because not only does, not only does what you want it to be, matter also the life you're living, unveils which road you're on and what you're actually, what's actually driving your life. And so this is just one of those rare opportunities in the middle of a podcast to consider what's driving my, what's driving my life, what's driving my behavior, what's driving, and with that to hear Jesus's words. Um. The best sermon ever.
MEGAN:
And I say that because I remember going to a church once and the pastor comes out and goes, I'm gonna give you the best sermon you've ever heard. And I remember sitting there going, what? And then he proceeded to share the entire sermon on the mountain memorized. And I thought that was a good one. Um, but he ends with these words.
MEGAN:
Matthew chapter seven, verses 13 to 23. And I'll, I'll not touch the very last words of the wise and foolish builders, but in there is something that has stopped me in my tracks and I feel compelled to share with you, which is enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate, and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life. And only a few find it. Which even as I'm reading that even on first glance again, is and am I the few? And then he continues Watch out for false profits. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly, they're ferocious. Wolves buy their fruit, you'll recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?
MEGAN:
Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit. A bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit, you will recognize them. Some of you baby wondering why did you choose this passage?
MEGAN:
And uh, I'll keep going in just a second. 'cause I'm about to actually tackle a very challenging passage of scripture from the mouth of Jesus that I can't wait. Um. To share with you, but also recognize that this one used to terrify me when he says this, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven.
MEGAN:
Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name, drive out demons and in your name, perform many miracles. Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you away from me. You evil doers. I'll tell you why I chose this passage is because I know the audience of Proverbs 31 longs to receive the words of God and to put them into practice, which is where Jesus ends with the wise and foolish builder to obey.
MEGAN:
This one struck my heart recently, and so I wanted to share it with people who wanna hear from the Lord, not just be shaped by culture. And that's why it's interesting to me, because I know my audience is similar to the audience Jesus is speaking to, and that changes even how you're hearing some of the content.
MEGAN:
For instance, narrow and wide gate, maybe you've heard that before. And immediately you think of salvation, right? There's a. Wide road that leads to destruction and a narrow one that leads to eternal life. And you think of salvation. But the unique thing is, and by the way, I do believe that. I do believe that is it, And I remember in Matthew chapter five, it gives us the context for the entire Sermon of the Mount and who he's speaking to when it says this Chapter five verse one. Now, when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him. He began to teach them who is he teaching the disciples?
MEGAN:
And I think that's why I wanted to teach something from the Sermon on the Mount is because I'm kind of banking on, if you're listening to Proverbs 31, you really are banking your whole life. And I just wanna take a moment to encourage you like, yes, it is a narrow road. The wide one leads to destruction.
MEGAN:
We know that. But I wanna say that this is not just a salvation conversation because it's very possible for us to say yes to Jesus and still choose the wide road. And it does lead to destruction. We, uh, we've experienced the effects of our choices. In fact, recently I hired someone to install blinds in my bedroom, and there will be con, there will be a purpose of this story, I promise.
MEGAN:
I, I hired a contractor who, who hired a blinds guy to install some blinds in my bedroom. Now, here is the surprise. He starts installing the blinds and I quickly realized that he is struggling to install the blinds. Like I'm talking, I'm sitting there and I had paid this guy, like I earned money to pay this guy to do his job well, and he is struggling and I'm hearing it.
MEGAN:
It sounds like this, uh, come on. Get in there. And I'm like, wait a second, this guy is, why is it so hard for him? And I take my friend who's a contractor, and I kinda signaled to him like, let's go downstairs into my boys' room, because his next project was gonna be installing blinds downstairs into my boys' room.
MEGAN:
We get downstairs and I immediately start talking factually, right man, that guy really is kind of struggling. And me and the contractor kind of giggle, like, yeah, you know, and then I make the joke. Does he have to make it so obvious? We start laughing and the truth is, I don't stop at the facts. I start, well this is re, this is like this month.
MEGAN:
I fully start making fun of this guy and it's easy to do and we are now utterly laughing at his expense and I didn't even feel bad about it. I'm having a blast. Until I noticed the baby monitor in my kid's room, which obviously projects the sound into my bedroom, which is where that man is presently working.
MEGAN:
Have you, have you ever been caught? Have you ever sent the text message to the person you're talking crap about? To the person you're talking crap about instead of the person you wanted to talk about them. Two, I think I'm not the only one, and I say this to in many ways, just also relate to man. The wide road is so easy.
MEGAN:
Talking poorly about people is much easier than uncomfortably stopping the joke. It's much easier to settle for comfort of a phone every single morning. Comparison as a way of life. It's so much, it's just socially acceptable. It's so easy to walk that wide road, and I, I hear Jesus's nudge to his disciples, Hey, let me remind you, it leads to destruction.
MEGAN:
Now I even wanna bring up Jesus's tone because I think the, when I grew up, I used to think that Jesus' tone was a guy standing arms crossed, delivering the sermon on the Mount with like. Like sending conviction, like it's fun. Like, don't do this. Make sure you don't do this. Hey, don't, definitely not that. Hey, you, you don't do that. And it's this like tone until I remember the sermon on the Mount that he, there's crowds he gets up on with the disciples whom he loves, including the guy who writes that he's the one that Jesus loves. Thank you, John. That's a fun joke. And, and he's sitting on the mountaintop.
MEGAN:
And how does he begin? By dishing out blessings and also letting 'em know like the way of blessing is different than what you think. And so if this road, this wide road, leads to destruction, the narrow one leads to blessing. But just know your heart might be mourning, you may feel poor in spirit at the, and at the end of, and at the end of your rope, you may be suffering for righteousness, you may be looking on social media and everyone else's life looks easier even though we all only post about our life when it, uh, can appear easy.
MEGAN:
But that's an aside. I just wanna. Reframe that, um, the, the narrow road is hard, but it's worth it. And it brings life not just for us, but also for others. Because I pull my friend who's also a Christian, who's a contractor, we run to the garage and I just look at him and say. I think I'm just gonna drive away.
MEGAN:
I'm paying you to deal with it. And we kinda laugh at that. And then we start trying to remember like, what did we say? What did he hear? And we're trying to justify ourselves, but you just can't. 'cause it was just awful. The guy who's already struggling his job, hearing people laugh at his expense. And so the spirit in me won't let me get away with anything.
MEGAN:
And praise be to God for that. If you've been seeing your sin, don't forget the context of the Lord Jesus going, I love you so much that I don't want you to be content with it either. Of course he woos me back inside and to confess, which was when I realized he actually didn't hear a thing 'cause the volume was down.
MEGAN:
So that's just an odd experience that I encountered, but I spring it up to say, why does the road comfortable and maybe even sometimes feels easier, but stay true. Proverbs 31, women to that, that narrow road and beware of wolves, beware of those. Whose fruit doesn't look like that, and it talks about bad apples.
MEGAN:
And I just wanna say like the, the, what Jesus gives us a way of, an example is not like having rough moments. There's always room for grace for the Christian. It's the people that do not have the spirit, that do not have the potential of experiencing the power of the spirit. Check out the fruit. It's kinda like when you go to a store and you actually buy fruit.
MEGAN:
Of course you're gonna check out the fruit before you invest in it. And I think a lot of us are lending, listening to the opinions of other people or trying to manage the perception of a lot of other people whose advice we would've never asked in the first place. Beware. And that's what Jesus does in this moment.
MEGAN:
And then he ends with the, again, what feels, at first glance, very terrifying. Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, and what day, the day we stand before him, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name, drive out demons in your name, perform many miracles.
MEGAN:
And then Jesus says, I will tell them plainly I never knew you. And I feel maybe deep, deep, deep, deep, deep in my spirit. That I want every single listener to have utter confidence that they will never hear these words from Jesus. I never knew you. Away from me, evil doers. And part
of it is because my husband, my late husband is in heaven.
MEGAN:
And so I think about that day a whole lot more than the average person the day we stand before him. And I think about the conversation and I think about what I care about most for people, especially people I haven't met. But if I can love you, I'd wanna say what? What level of assurance do you have that on that day you will not hear those words.
MEGAN:
And I wanna bring it up because it really obviously matters and I think it affects the way in which we're living in the road in which we're walking. And I wanna say a few things about it, and then I'll end with one thing, but just giving you my outline using the word thing. Okay. Um, listen to the, listen to the person that Jesus is having a dialogue with in this moment.
MEGAN:
He says, Lord, Lord, which means there's like an intimate, there's an intimate relationship that person thinks they have, which again feels scary, but listen to the reason they would think they would get in. Lord, Lord, did we not do this? Did we not do this? Which means the proof where their entrance is dependent upon whom, what they've done, and then when you listen to Jesus's words, it's very surprising.
MEGAN:
At the end when he says, then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. How interesting. 'cause think for a second. Wouldn't you assume that Jesus would say. You didn't know me, but he doesn't. He says, I didn't know you. What? Because I thought it's just about what I know about God. Like, can I know more that, I mean, that dictates my quiet times.
MEGAN:
I wanna know him. I wanna know him. I wanna know him. I don't know. But he says, you didn't let me know. You, of course we know that God knows everything. He's omnisci, but like the relational knowing, like, did we, did, did I know you as you know me, were we in relationship together and I wanna free people up from, and I wanna, I kind of reorient even why we do quiet time is not just to get to know him, though it is, it's also to let him know you, but it's not to fuel you up to try harder to accomplish things on your own. The beauty of this passage is for those who are in Christ Jesus, you can have assurance that your salvation is not dependent upon what you have done. It is not dependent upon how much you know. Just this morning, someone came up to me in Bible, said and said, I just don't feel like I know as much as the people at my table.
MEGAN:
And I say, that's okay. He knows where you're at, and that's where he wants to meet you with what a relationship. And I don't invite every listener in this morning to let him know what's really on the heart. To let him know how grateful you are that your relationship status with him is not dependent upon your level of obedience, though he wants that 'cause he wants what's best for you.
MEGAN:
I'll end with this, uh, crew. Campus Crusade for Christ equips a lot of people to share their faith and they do it using these two questions, which I find very interesting. The first one is, what level of assurance do you have? On that day, if you were to die today, that you would have interest entrance into heaven, one to 10, which might as well for just a second.
MEGAN:
What number I wonder comes to people's minds like, take a second. What level of assurance do you have one to 10, that if you were to die today and stand before God, that you would go to heaven. And then the second question is, if God were to ask you, why should I let you in? What would be your answer? It brings me back to this passage, Matthew seven, in which Jesus with this guy, when the guy does not get entrance, it's because the guy's answer to that second question is what he has done that makes him good enough.
MEGAN:
The good news of the gospel is not that heaven is full of really good people. It's full of people who know that they're really not good enough and they have a faith and trust not in what they've done, but they have a faith and trust in what Jesus has accomplished on their behalf and that same power.
MEGAN:
That raised Jesus from the dead can dwell within you. And I just wanna say, I keep reading all these commentaries by these guys who are like, have led me theologically in so much of my Bible teaching who are telling these stories, like growing up in the church, but then suddenly like really understanding their faith.
MEGAN:
And they're like twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. And I'm like, what? And we taught the Bible before, like what is happening? And I feel like the Lord is like really wanting to, even with this moment, with his disciples of going like, I want you to understand if the Spirit is in you. How is the spirit in you?
MEGAN:
It's not because of your good works and you can get more of the spirit. It's because Jesus made a way through his death and resurrection to rise or forgive you of all sins, which would literally annihilate anything that would keep you from relationship with him. He pays the price on the cross and then rises from the dead.
MEGAN:
Dead. The same power that rises Jesus from the dead can dwell within all who believe so that their power source is no longer themself for everything they long to do. And then suddenly that power source also will convict us to bring us back when we talk crap about a blind sky, to want to make things right, to do the things that are not comfortable, but the things that will ultimately honor and glorify God.
MEGAN:
But I, but I, I end with just the simple truth of the gospel and a just a simple, genuine question. Do you listener believe that Jesus died on the cross? And I would hope that you'd say yes, and I would follow it up with for your sins. Yes. To which I would then respond, what amount of them, and I would hope you would think all to which I would then come back to your number and remind you that numbers one through nine are all the same.
MEGAN:
The assurance in number 10 is simply a faith and a trust that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. There is. No one comes to the Father except through him. And so if you have placed your trust in Jesus. You have received the promised Holy Spirit, he is guiding you toward a narrow path. And when you take the wide one, let his spirit draw you back to restore the relationship, draw you back to repentance, draw you back to confessing your sin to one another, draw you back to every other command he gives.
MEGAN:
Not as something dutiful to do, but as an act of love to bring you back into who you already are at the depth. And so I simply woo you to hear this this morning, afternoon, evening, driving in a car, on a walk, wherever you're at. Let him know you.
MEGAN:
Let him help guide you, and if you have strayed the path and you're experiencing the destruction mm-hmm. Don't even respond to that alone. If you've been listening to other voices, leading to a whole lot of comparison, check out their fruit. Mm-hmm. Is it of the spirit. Or is it of critique or is it of something else entirely?
MEGAN:
And lastly, hmm. Uh, you can have full assurance, not because of what you've done or how many studies you've done or accomplished, or how often you have, fill in the blank, but simply because on that day we can say, Lord, Lord, I know that I am not enough and I believe in Jesus. He is enough, and that will be more than enough.
MEGAN:
And the best part is in that moment of full acceptance and love because of our faith in Jesus. That type of loving assurance and acceptance of. Ourselves in a way that we've never experienced. That type of loving acceptance is not just reserved for heaven. It is possible in your prayer life today. So let him know you on the journey.
KALEY:
Amen.
MEREDITH:
Mm-hmm. Wow. Megan, I, I think I was just sitting here reflecting on, um, exactly how you started this podcast is who you're talking to and who. A large portion of the people that Kaylee and I and and us here at Proverbs 31, get the privilege of walking alongside, um, in life with this ministry. And the, and the content that we have here are people who grew up in what I would call Christian homes.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
If you will. And they can't, um. Remember when they weren't a Christian, you know, like they, they, um, were at church every Sunday and Wednesday, you know, they went to youth group and bible study, and I, I'm not from the southeast, I'm from the Northwest. And when I came to the Southeast, everybody talked about FCA and I was like, what is that? Like, I thought, you know, like there was, there's yeah, a Christian organization. For everything. It almost feels like in the southeast specifically, um, and this doesn't even just apply to this demographically, the southeast, I think this applies to everywhere where people live, grow up so close to an institution.
KALEY:
Yeah.
MEREDITH:
That and when the relationship becomes with the institution, uh, you lose the person of Jesus. Yeah. And. A lot of shame and condemnation. Then I begin, I think begins to surface. And as you are delivering this message, I kept going back to this idea of right at the beginning when you were talking about how if you are in relationship with the institution and not the person, when you hear the road is narrow.
MEREDITH:
You automatically think that's hard and I don't want it. Yeah. And you then, or you think that's hard and I can do it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you double down on it and it becomes, I, um, matter of your will. Mm-hmm. Um, and I couldn't help but think while you were talking, you know, your, the book you wrote was deeply impactful for me.
MEREDITH:
Relaxed was a very significant book for me to read. And it really defined, redefined for me what relaxed even means. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, and I couldn't help but think of the connect, see the connection between what you were sharing and would wonder if you would expound a little bit for our friends who maybe they have grown up in church.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
And the list of things that they have, because they've been hearing these sermons their whole lives of all the things that they should be doing.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEGAN:
Right.
MEREDITH:
You should be, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. You should be, you know, all the things.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
And they say they're, and they're just exhausted.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
And they just feel like I can't. I am trying so hard and I can't keep doing this, and there is nothing relaxed about my life.
KALEY:
Yeah.
MEREDITH:
And it is, I am spent.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEREDITH:
Can you talk to her?
KALEY:
Yeah.
MEGAN:
Yes. Well, mm-hmm. Uh, first a thought of for those who are raising a family or who grew up in the, in the Christian home. A gal in my bible study said this phrase and I loved it, and I just, I thought it was such a beautiful. Way of talking about it. And it's, it's, it's exactly what you said. It's not the, um, being raised in the institution, but like if you have been raised in a true Christian home, filled with mm-hmm. People who have the Holy Spirit, who have the fruit of the spirit, and it's not means that they're perfect.
MEGAN:
In fact, they just know what to do when they're not right. If they have rhythms of that. Um, but she said, you know what that means for me being raised in the church and raising a family in the church is I basically, I was very positioned towards grace.
KALEY:
Yeah.
MEREDITH:
Mm. Wow.
MEGAN:
And like a, an institution doesn't give grace.
MEREDITH:
Mm-hmm.
MEGAN:
Jesus gives grace. And so positioned is like, you know, imagine like just taking someone by the shoulders and positioning them towards something. Like raise for me, my, my boys as they make mistakes. It's positioning them towards grace, not positioning them toward what they should be doing. Um, and then again, pushing their nose in it.
MEGAN:
But here's the way I would think about it and how I think that maybe we could. Release a few people from understanding where this came from and what they're doing so that they can go, they can get back on the narrow path. So basically, let's say that there is, well, theologians would, would refer to it as the sanctification gap.
MEGAN:
It is the difference between where you're at and where you wanna be. So it's kinda like when I start with, uh, what's the driving him of your life? You're like, man, I'd love to glorify God with all of my heart, soul, mind strike. When I look at my life, I really drive for comfort. So there's a gap between where I want to be and where I actually am.
MEGAN:
And so the question I bring is. What do you do with that gap? There's three great temptations that my professor, Dr. John co wrote a article about that sticks with me. The first temptation is, um, feeling really hopeless about the gap, where you go, gosh. I like, it's not shrinking. I feel like it's getting bigger.
MEGAN:
And so there's kind of this despair. And the way he put it is you begin, and this is where you see it in, in for my target audience right here in Proverbs 31, who's still in the church, but it's this gal who is settling for a valley of dry bones spirituality. Mm-hmm. Or you don't really expect much. But you know, you're at least pretty consistent and so that should feel better.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEGAN:
But it kind of doesn't. Maybe you even like did quiet time for a while. You were doing the first five and, or maybe that's just, you just do it, but there's no. God's presence in it. There's no, there's just you doing the thing. And it's just kind of this odd despair while you're still moving.
MEGAN:
And that's the first thing to do with the gap is just go like, I don't know, I'm just gonna kind of not think about the gap. Mm-hmm. But I know I feel it all the time. Okay. The second one is the immoral temptation with the gap. And this may not be, this might not be you, it would be you. If you feel like you have a double life and there are secrets that you're like, holy smokes, I don't even know what to do with that secret.
MEGAN:
Or you say the phrase, I just can't forgive myself. So that's you. Or maybe it's those listening in with a wayward kid. Lemme explain this. It's this, that they show up to church and they hear that there's a large gap and they are reminded of the gap every single time and they realize, wait, wait, wait, wait.
MEGAN:
But I'm not gonna get better at the gap. So wait, you're telling me to pray without ceasing? That actually feels impossible. So when they hear that. Constantly and they don't know the spirit and they don't know how the spirit forms them. What they do is they go, I'm gonna go find a different gap that I have more control over.
MEGAN:
This is where a controlling parent comes from. This is where the kid who's chasing money, it actually makes sense. It's someone that goes, I don't like that gap. I don't wanna think about that gap. So give me one that I have a little bit more control over that I can actually like, make strides and it feels accomplishing.
MEGAN:
In some people, they've gone, you know what, maybe it's not success. Maybe it's personal pleasure. So if you're noticing, this is where all these like problems happen and if we can step back with compassion, it makes sense. Mm-hmm. It's not wise, it's wide. It's wide road, but it makes sense. And the third one, and this is probably where a lot of the tired people you just described fall in, and this is where I fell in.
MEGAN:
This is where I really talked, I talked about all these things in the book, but the one I really narrowed in on was this last one. Which was the moral temptation, which feels like, it doesn't even make sense. 'cause those two words are oxymorons, moral and temptation. But the moral temptation is this. Okay, I see that.
MEGAN:
It's like what you said and I'm gonna, I'm gonna work pretty hard. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna shrink it. That's what I'm gonna do. And basically the, the spiritual life, therefore there's not delight in it. It's all duty and work and. And it's accomplishment. And when you do it well, there's pride. And when you don't do it well, there's shame, and then there's hiding.
MEGAN:
And then there's this like really exhausting working relationship with the Lord. That's all up to you, listener. Mm-hmm. And if you are doing your quiet time, then you feel close to God. And if you don't, then that's your fault. Yeah. And so suddenly it's just all on the believer, not understanding again, the role of the Holy Spirit.
MEGAN:
I literally went back to school to understand, because I've seen this Holy Spirit seems like he's almost abused, like. Throwing him into certain scenarios. I've seen him do things that are outside of my theology. And I've also seen people like that basically preach to moralism that says like, do better, you end the sermons.
MEGAN:
Like here's your three points on how you could do better at life. And I'm like, how is this any different than a lecture in a really motivational message outside of the Bible? And they're far too similar. And so basically the answer to all three, and this is the good news about that whole gap. Is that the best response to that gap is not even your response to it.
MEGAN:
It's God's response to it that 2000 years ago, Jesus comes down the ladder. He doesn't, the one that he knows you can't climb. And he comes to you and he doesn't just come to you 2000 years ago, of course he dies. The death he deserve to make a way for you to be in right relationship with Jesus.
MEGAN:
Then he places his spirit in you and something in you. At the core of you is utterly different. I wanna say that 'cause something happens at the moment of the Holy Spirit. Like when I, when I talk with my kid about growth, I reference the Holy Spirit in his life. That is such an important power source.
MEGAN:
It's not go be kind. I say that too often. I catch myself going, whoa. I'm like promoting moralism again. It's not go be kind. It's, Lord, search our heart and what we're really angry about and why we're not kind. Let's go on the journey. With the Holy Spirit who's in us, who's trying to form us into someone who is kind, not someone who tries to be kind on their own.
MEGAN:
And so the best response is the fact that there's someone who has already filled that gap, which suddenly quiet time is not trying to achieve anything. It's trying to open to your power source. And relax. So there's the word relax.
MEREDITH:
Oh man
KALEY:
That's so good. I think Meredith, whenever you started talking about people who had grown up at the church, it's funny because that was gonna be my comment too, because I think Well, which is good and it's affirming because I feel sometimes. Megan, I don't know a whole lot of your story. I don't know how much in the church you grew up with, but sometimes you're like born into the narrow road, like you exit the womb and your feet are, your feet are on the narrow road. That was me. I mean, like before you're even born. You're in church, in your mom's belly.
KALEY:
And sometimes I think that there's this level of, I think guilt is the wrong word. Maybe it's just. Dissatisfaction with the fact that there's never something in my life where there was like the BC Kaley and like the after Christ Kaley, because I've never not known who God was.
MEREDITH:
Mm.
KALEY:
I've never, and I know when I was a small child, like thank the Lord that in his goodness and grace. That was my life. I have so much to be thankful for, but I think one thing that people who grew up in the church like me and have had this assurance for a long time have in common with people who maybe didn't grow up in the church, is there comes to a point in your life where you also realize the direction and the aim of your life is largely based on the people that you're surrounded by.
MEREDITH:
Mm-hmm.
MEGAN:
Yeah.
KALEY:
Because even if you grew up in the Bible Belt, what's wild is that when I was in high school, we would do pageants. Don't get on me about that. Okay. But guess what everybody would say whenever they got up and introduce themselves. My name is Kaley and I go to such and such church and this, yes, it was a thing like that was what you identified yourself with.
MEREDITH:
I wish you guys could see my face right now.
KALEY:
I know it's like wild.
MEREDITH:
But I did not grow up in the south or in the church and I did not know that's how you introduced yourself,
KALEY:
But, but where you go to church is so connected with that, but it's there. There's a time where you realized you. Are surrounded by a lot of people who are just doing the narrow road because they have to that like they don't know any other life outside of that.
KALEY:
And then you can spend time with people who are actually choosing the narrow road. And that often doesn't really happen until you're an adult. And so I think adulthood really is the moment for all of us where we are truly. Accountable for that like narrow road lifestyle. 'cause a lot of times in high school we can't really con, we can't, we can't control ing who we're around all the time.
KALEY:
When we're surrounded constantly by people who are like walking and talking, but not actually like taking it to heart. And so many people who, as soon as they have the choice to be free and do what they want, I'm like, there's the fruit. Yeah, there's what? There's what was there and there's what wasn't there.
MEREDITH:
And it's, it's hard. It's eyeopening.
MEGAN:
Yeah. Kaley, I happy you're bringing this up, but I also want to hit on the fruit. You nailed it at the end. I wanna hit on the fruit for just a second.
KALEY:
Mm-hmm.
MEGAN:
And it kind like comes back to the relaxed thing, because suddenly when I heard like, choose the neuro, I'm like, oh.
MEAGAN:
That feel, it feels tense. My body feels tense. Going like, okay, I need, I need to choose the neuro, I need to choose love. I need to choose forgiveness. I need to choose.
MEGAN:
Like the, that frantic. For me, when I feel frantic like that, that's not life in the spirit. Mm. That is, that is me again going, Lord, Lord, did I not do this? Lord, Lord did I not like it almost feels like that instead of as I open to him and I, for instance, if I talk crap on the blind sky and then I come to the Lord and I go, I went the wide road right there.
MEGAN:
And your spirit loves me enough to make sure I notice. And here I am saying, will you forgive me?
MEGAN:
For putting that guy down and making me feel amazing about myself. 'cause I would, I'm amazing at my job and that pride I don't wanna live with, and thank you for loving me at my worst.
MEGAN:
I'll say the like walking and the choosing. The choosing was where to go with the mistake that like the choosing, like the road is just the one that's with God. Not without 'em.
MEGAN:
And so isn't it interesting, I think we could even do the Christian things mm-hmm. In the wide road.
MEGAN:
Because I see people a lot when you check the fruit, they're doing the right things or even saying good things, but the. But it's like firm and harsh and not kind and joy. And so I would say the path that you're choosing is not to do it alone.
MEGAN:
And so like if someone wants to feel comfort at, even with these like really sincere, kind of harsh, it feels like harsh words from Jesus. Always remember the context of the Beatitudes or the whole sermon in general, which is a God who wants to lavish blessing. Yeah. And so he's trying to woo you back no matter what you've done, no matter where you've been, and no matter how much you've read or not read or anything, and in the middle of the end of the podcast going, I love you, you can be safe here.
MEGAN:
And the best part is when you're loved like that. You naturally, like the fruit that's cultivated is not your effort. The fruit that's cultivated is the spirit who gives you eyes. And I'll say you're less defensive with others because you recognize like me too. And they make sense just like I do. Yeah.
MEGAN:
And it gives you peace for the journey. And so that's where the relaxed book was really written. 'cause I got to experience that and I want more people to experience that. And it is not the burdensome, make sure you make the right choice. It's just know you're not alone.
KALEY:
Yeah. Yeah.
MEREDITH:
Amen. Megan.
KALEY:
So good.
MEREDITH:
Every time you teach, I walk away and I mean this, I'm not trying to flatter you. Okay. I'm really not. Um, I walk away, uh, I feel like with a clearer picture of Jesus' heart for his children, and it draws me to him. And so I'm grateful. I'm grateful for your, um, your gift. That you share. 'cause I think God's given you a really special gift to be able to see into scripture. And communicate it in a way that, um, people really need to hear. So really grateful.
MEGAN:
Thanks, Meredith. Thank you.
MEREDITH:
That's I'm not, um, one to flatter. Anybody.
MEGAN:
We've gone to dinner. We've gone to dinner before and I love getting to know you too, Meredith, and I love that you are a truth teller. So when you say that, I know you're telling the truth.
MEREDITH:
Yes. I mean it. I really do. And we're just, I'm grateful our listeners got to hear from you again. Um, today, I do wanna mention, I know we've said it a couple times guys, but that Megan's book, uh, relaxed is a really fantastic mm-hmm. Book. If you don't have it, I would highly recommend you go grab it.
MEREDITH:
Um, you can. Check there's a link for it in the show notes. Um, but it's also sold. Everywhere books are sold, guys. Yeah. Also, if you're like, this girl is, seems like a good time. Uh, we would encourage you to go, I follow her on Instagram. She's not kidding when she says she has two boys and her new, um, fiance also has two kids.
MEREDITH:
Megan, we just tell 'em how old everybody is. Really quick 'cause I really want this to fall on.
MEAGAN:
Yeah. Ten eight. Seven. Ten eight. Seven, six.
MEREDITH:
Ah. That's wild. That's a wild time right there. Wild. And so if you wanna follow along with this journey, guys, go hit this girl up on Instagram because I know she's a good follow.
KALEY:
That's amazing. Well, what a fun time we had today. Thank you again, Megan, and thanks for listening today. Friends at Proverbs 31 Ministries. We believe when you know the truth and the truth, it changes everything.