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Presenting stories, insights, and efforts of those who interface with the natural world.
Is it about a 100 miles of the Arizona Trail are on state trust lands. And these were lands that were kind of gifted to the state when Arizona became a state a hundred and some years ago. And those lands are supposed to be sold at auction to the highest bidder to benefit the state and state agencies like state schools, state prisons, and, you know, state agencies and institutions. And so right now, we have a 100 miles of trail on these state trust lands. They can be sold at any time, and that worries me.
Matthew:If there's anything that I'm like, the trail is not quite finished and it's because it's on these lands that can be sold at any time. And we do not have the kind of money that it takes to go to auction because almost everybody who's buying state trust lands are large scale developers and we don't have the kind of money to compete with them. So what I would really like to do is to buy all the state trust lands that the Arizona Trail is currently on, and preserve them. And whether that land is owned by our organization or whether we would turn it over to, either a county or a federal agency like the Bureau of Land Management or US Forest Service, those are little things kinda to be determined. But, yeah, that's what I would do with a with a big chunk of money.
Host:This is Surface Exposure, presenting stories, insights, and efforts of those who interface with the natural world. Support this program at buymeacoffee.com/surfaceexposure. What is the best kept secret in Arizona? And what does it take to build and maintain an 800 mile long National Scenic Trail from Mexico to Utah? Find out on this episode where I sit with Executive Director of the Arizona Trail Association, Matthew Nelson.
Host:The Arizona Trail Association's mission is to build, maintain, protect, and promote the trail while engaging with the public and working together to care for the Arizona National Scenic Trail. In this conversation, Matthew describes the efforts and progress set out to accomplish the mission. During the conversation, Matthew explains the value the trail brings to the individual, local communities, the state of Arizona, the economy, wildlife, and environment. He makes a case stating the importance of caring for this cultural resource and major artery of Arizona's $15,000,000,000 outdoor recreation industry. Care to become involved?
Host:Listen to learn more, or reach out at volunteer@aztrail.org. Visit aztrail.org for upcoming events, programs, trail resources, newsletters, and opportunities. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here we go. Yeah, Matthew.
Host:Thanks again for sitting down with me today. The mission of the Arizona Trail Association is to protect, maintain, enhance, promote, and sustain the Arizona Trail as a unique encounter with the land. The Arizona Trail community secures and protects an 800 mile continuous non motorized trail across Arizona from Mexico to Utah, linking deserts, mountains, canyons, communities, and diverse peoples. The purpose is to provide access to wilderness experience through the work of an organization committed to the values of inclusion, fairness, and protection of the natural environment. Before we break into how we achieve that, can you give us a short tour of the Arizona Trail?
Host:Feel free to include geographical, cultural, historical, biological and other values as it traverses through the region.
Matthew:Oh, okay. It's a grand adventure. It's about 800 miles long, so let's go south to north because that's really how the trail was intended and how it was originally developed. It was starting on The US Mexico border and then traveling north. So we start off kind of in a beautiful transition zone between grasslands and kind of madre and oak woodland, And this is in Coronado National Memorial on The US Mexico border.
Matthew:And then just a few miles north of there, hit the first Aspen Forest of the Arizona Trail right next to the the international border, which is amazing. Top out around 9,000 feet and then you begin a traverse of, seven different Sky Island Mountain ranges. You know, they're called Sky Islands because, they're these mountains surrounded by a sea of desert and each one is a very unique biome. So as the Arizona Trail travels through these mountain ranges, the Huachuca's, the Santa Rita Mountains, the Rincon's, the Catalinas, the Superstition, the Mazatzal's, all these beautiful sky Islands, you get these unique encounters with the land when you're out there. Some of these mountain ranges have endemic plants and some animals that are only found in that one particular mountain range.
Matthew:So you're doing this constant up and down in a traverse of all these mountain ranges and deserts. And eventually, you head further north, then you cross the Gila River up through the Superstition Mountains, and then you hit a geographical landform called the Mogollon Rim. And this is a beautiful part of Arizona because it separates the Colorado Plateau from the North with the basin and range kind of province of all the different mountain ranges down low. You're along the base of the Modion Rim for a while, and then you climb up it. And then from there, you're surrounded by ponderosa pine trees.
Matthew:From there, you head north through the town of Flagstaff. And then a little bit further north, you encounter Grand Canyon, the Grand Canyon. The Arizona Trail travels through one of the most beautiful canyons in the entire planet. And then from there, you're on the Kaibet Plateau, and you gently descend in elevation across the Kaibet Plateau until you arrive at the Utah border, where you're greeted with beautiful sandstone cliffs and deep sandstone canyons, places like Ophiria Canyon, Buckskin Gulch, and The Wave. And so in 800 miles, you get to see what some people say is the biological equivalent of traveling from Mexico to Canada.
Matthew:Because the low point is around 1,400 feet elevation near the Gila River, high point is up on the Kaibet Plateau at about 9,000 feet, everything in between, is pretty magical. And it really helps give you a snapshot of the natural beauty that exists within the state of Arizona.
Host:Great. Awesome. Can you dive into the history of the trail?
Matthew:Yeah. I think that our of our father, the father of the Arizona Trail, dreamed this up in the nineteen eighties, very early nineteen eighties. His name is Dale Shewalter. He was a Flagstaff area school teacher who had done a lot of exploring on foot and in horseback, mostly in the southern part of the state, so kind of near Tucson, even though he lived in Flagstaff. And every time that he would be hiking on a trail in a mountain range, he would look over to another mountain range and be like, how do I get from here to there?
Matthew:And most of the time the answer was driving. Right? Driving under roads and paved roads to get to the next mountain range. And after doing numerous trips, in his mind, he started to put together this idea of like, wow, wouldn't it be nice if you could walk from mountain range to mountain range through canyons and deserts and forests and eventually end up in Flagstaff? But it wasn't until he was camped out at night in the borderlands near Coronado Peak, so in Coronado National Memorial right near The US Mexico border.
Matthew:And as the moon was coming up over the borderlands, he literally had a vision. He had a vision of, this long distance trail from Mexico all the way to Utah, connecting all these beautiful places that he had visited. So from that vision, he began to tell the story and to share the vision with everybody who would listen. So this was like, you know, mountain bikers and hikers and trail runners and equestrians, the Forest Service, Arizona State Parks, folks that he knew at the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management. The idea was inspired by the Appalachian Trail in the East and the Pacific Crest Trail in the West, that Dale felt like, wow, we have enough beauty within a single state to rival any of these trails that are much longer in length.
Matthew:And so that's when the idea of the Arizona Trail was born, and it took about thirty years to fill in the gaps where trail didn't already exist. So in looking at big topographic maps back in the day, the idea was where are there already trails through public lands, and then how can we connect them. And that how do we connect them is what took about thirty years, a lot of trail construction.
Host:I'd like to speak more on the how of achieving all of this. But first, why do you find trails important? What values do they bring to people and the environment?
Matthew:Yeah. Everybody who I've engaged in conversation on this topic, almost everybody has a different answer. And I I love that about it. Like, how we as individuals view land, landscapes, natural and cultural resources can be very personal and all very, very different. But for me personally, especially having been working for the Arizona Trail Association now for fourteen years as their Executive Director, but having been involved with this trail and many other trails for most of my life, the value that trails bring to me is the opportunity to immerse myself in these landscapes.
Matthew:Walking over land is its own incredible experience, but trails allow us access into deep wilderness, into national parks, into places that normally we wouldn't go or we wouldn't have an opportunity to experience. And for me, like, I this will sound funny being the director of the Arizona Trail. Like, I don't really care about the trail that much. I care about these landscapes, but the trail is the access to these places. And when very thoughtfully designed and artfully and carefully constructed and then maintained over time, then we have a pathway for people to follow.
Matthew:Once the human element interacts with the landscape, especially in the context of a trail, it's like an energy exchange. And so what I've found is that when we're on these trails, not only are we immersed in, like, beauty of the land and in observing wildlife and other things, but when we're on a pathway that many other people have put hours and blood and sweat and tears and laughter and joy into, I think that, that influences our trail experience. I think we pick up on that. I think that when people work the land, they leave something behind. And not just like a scar on the landscape or a rock cairn, but like literally energy.
Matthew:And I think that as people are walking or hiking or riding the trail, they feel that. And it feels, it is a very positive feeling because it's this, it's a beautiful interaction that happens when doing, especially hand tool single track trail construction. It's it's intimate. It's like an intimate encounter with the landscape. So I think more than anything else, trails allowing people to have their own individual unique intimate experiences with nature, and sometimes in deep wilderness.
Matthew:I think that's the value of trails for me.
Host:And then what value does it bring to our ecosystems and the environment and the wildlife? Yeah.
Matthew:Trails are, I would say, as much of a cultural resource as they are anything else. People have been both intentionally and inadvertently making trails as long as we've been bipeds. Right? And we can find ancient trail systems on every continent except Antarctica because I mean people, you know the you know the deal there. But I see them as cultural resources and the value that I think they bring to the land is that when trails are very thoughtfully designed, which is a lot of what we do, designing new segments and constructing them, But trails take people where we want them to go, and they keep people away from areas that we don't want them to go.
Matthew:And so I think that the understanding of what resources exist on the land, and I'll just use a couple of examples, like, let's say water. Right? Humans need water as life. Like, we need water. We need access to water, especially in these long distance trails.
Matthew:However, sending a trail directly to a water source will impact wildlife and their patterns. And so oftentimes, recreation and wildlife, we share the same space but at different times of the day, and this has been studied both on the Arizona Trail and other places. But what we found is that if we can design a trail to go near the water source, like a quarter to a half mile away, but not directly to it, we are allowing humans access to that water source, but it's not, inundated by people, especially people that aren't there intentionally to get, you know, the water that they need. So they're they're benefiting wildlife. And the other example would be like, cultural resources on the landscape.
Matthew:So artifacts or archaeological sites, cultural sites, heritage sites as the US Forest Service calls them. I love that term. And so these are very important pieces of history that are in the land and on the land, and we don't wanna disturb them both on purpose, like as if we were building trail right through them, or inadvertently if people happen to be hiking or riding or, you know, experiencing the landscape, if they don't know better and they're not following leave no trace principles and they were to disturb the cultural site or potentially take something away, that is a very negative impact. You know, it's stealing history. And so we design trail to avoid certain features.
Matthew:And then, of course, we design trail to go to certain features, beautiful lookouts, you know, things like that. So I love that when it's really thoughtfully done and I think trail it's a it's a mix of, like, art and science. You know? And the science part is a mix of, like, hydrology. Right?
Matthew:Like, how does water move across the landscape? Because if you don't build a trail right, it will be completely destroyed in the next rainstorm or years from then. And it's also a mix of geology, so you have to know what what type of soil and rocks and sediments that we're working with. And then it's sociology. Like, who's using this trail?
Matthew:How are they using it? How many people are you know, like, what is the volume gonna be in the type of use? And so when all these factors go into artful design and then construction, the idea is to have the most minimal impact on the land and its creatures as possible. And just recently, we're learning that trails can be very beneficial to wildlife. I've thought that anecdotally for decades because I see more tracks and scat on trails than I do off trail.
Matthew:I'm spending more time on trail than off trail, so I've always wondered like, wow, is the landscape covered in scat and tracks, and is it only just evident in trail? But through a wildlife camera project that we undertook for about five years, studying the whole length of the Arizona Trail with wildlife cameras, what we found is that certain species, many species, mammals, especially cats, prefer to use trails over, just walking over land. So, again, when these trails are thoughtfully designed with lots of different considerations, they can have minimal impact and be kind of mutually beneficial.
Host:Great. Can you give overhead view of the Arizona Trail Association's role in all of this?
Matthew:Yeah. I think that we've been kind of the lead agency entity organization since the very inception. It became clear very early on that a lot of agencies like the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, Arizona State Parks, and some of the county parks and rec, agencies, They were all very interested in the concept of the Arizona Trail, but none of them could undertake it because it crossed so many agency boundaries. And the national park has a specific set of rules under which they manage resources. Forest Service BLM, same story.
Matthew:And so the Arizona Trail Association has been kind of the lead in dreaming it up, designing it, building it, maintaining it, and then engaging the public to protect it. And I think that the last part is probably the most important because unless we can help people experience the trail and then hopefully fall in love with it, they're the ones that are gonna help maintain it and protect it into the future.
Host:So I'm reading off of your strategic plan here. And your efforts can be broken into five points here to protect, maintain, enhance, promote, and sustain the trail. What does it mean to protect it? Yeah, I
Matthew:think that's the hardest one of all, really. For most of the life of the organization, the focus was build. Build, maintain, improve, you know, etcetera. And so we as an organization were very focused on trail construction for almost thirty years. And it wasn't until the trail was a complete path from Mexico to Utah, and that was in, 2011 when it was finally a complete path.
Matthew:We're still continuing to build trail because there's lots of road segments, so we're working on replacing road with single track. But after it was complete, then the organization shifted focus from trail construction to trail maintenance and protection. And for the longest time, I think maintenance was considered to be the priority cause we had to maintain this incredible resource that took decades and tens of thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours to build. So maintaining it is absolutely necessary. But when I was first hired and we undertook a strategic planning effort and we talked about like very long term goals, what really became evident is that our primary goal is to protect it.
Matthew:Like we have to protect this resource. And protection comes in many forms. One of them is, working with both state legislature and then congress to make sure that when new bills are passed, that they benefit the trail, they don't hurt it. So anything that has anything to do with public lands that comes along, we take a pretty close look at. So legislation and being a leader in that effort, I see as being vital.
Matthew:A lot of trail organizations don't get involved in politics, but we see it as vital. You know, congress designated the Arizona Trail as a national scenic trail, one of only 11 in America. So it's a big deal. It's a nationally significant resource, benefits communities, supports Arizona's $14,000,000,000 outdoor recreation economy. But more than that, it's, it's an opportunity to help protect both the trail and then the lands that it passes through.
Matthew:Because we see the trail as a holistic, at least a mile wide, 800 mile long. So it's not just the tread that you're walking on, it's the trail experience. And it's the scenic values, and it's the wildlife, it's the dark skies, it's the natural quiet. That is the trail, not just the strip of dirt, you know, that goes through a forest. And so protection oftentimes comes in the the form of political advocacy.
Host:You mentioned earlier the father of the Arizona Trail. What's their name? Dale Shewalter. And he used to access one mountain to the next by driving around until we connected all the segments. This sounds like it's a challenging feat.
Host:What are what were some of the challenges in connecting all the dots?
Matthew:The biggest challenge was identifying public land connectivity. The goal was to keep it on public land as much as possible. And the goal at the time was, well, that way it's always free, it's accessible, and it's managed, co managed really by federal agencies. And so when the original route of the Arizona Trail was designed, there were so many options like old planning maps, you wouldn't believe it was spaghetti. Looking at oh here's a trail and then here's a dirt road and you know how could we link it all together but ultimately the decision was what offers the greatest level of protection.
Matthew:So national parks are at the top. The Arizona Trail passes through four National Park Service units: Grand Canyon, Walnut Canyon National Monument, Saguaro National Park, Coronado National Memorial, and then just recently, a very recently designated national monument called Bajnawajo Itaukugbeni ancestral footprints of the Grand Canyon, and that's located just on, South of the South Irma Grand Canyon. So greatest level of protection, national parks, then national monuments, then it would be wilderness areas, designated wilderness, and there are eight designated wilderness areas the trail passes through, and then National Forest Lands, then Bureau of Land Management Lands, and then anything else. And so the biggest challenges were how do we link this all together and keep it as public as possible and to minimize the motorized interface? It was it would have been much harder in any other state, I feel like.
Matthew:But Arizona has so much public land. A lot of it is undeveloped, including the private parcels or the, like, the state lands, which can be sold at auction to the highest bidder. A lot of those have not been sold or developed. And so that initial challenge of, oh, how is this possible to do it legally? And then where you are crossing private land, how can we set up agreements, conservation easements, access agreements, memorandum of understanding, any type of mechanism we could find to allow access across these lands.
Matthew:That was the hardest part, quite honestly, followed by water, natural water sources. It is Arizona. It's incredibly dry, and it's getting hotter and drier every year. And so a big part of the planning effort into where is the trail gonna go was taking into consideration what are the most beautiful places, where's the greatest level of protection for this trail, and then where do we find water. And that remains a challenge because the water sources that were identified back then, some of them are gone and will never come back, and others are becoming more compromised or less reliable or the quality is diminishing.
Host:Does or are you all involved with the construction of water resources? Can you tell
Matthew:me more about those projects? Yeah. I feel very strongly that a long distance trail without reliable water is irrelevant. So in addition to caring for the tread, which most people would assume is the trail, we see water as being a vital element for wildlife and for people, especially equestrians. You know, a horse will drink up to, you know, five gallons a day, whereas humans typically need one.
Matthew:And so the first thing that we did is mapped every water source within a mile of the trail. So we know every cattle tank, every spring, seep, faucet, creek, stream, lake, you name it, it's already been mapped. And now we're monitoring that to see, like, how what is the reliability like and how does that change over time. In areas that are 20 miles or more without a reliable water source, we see those as dangerous. Most people can only do about 20 miles in a day.
Matthew:Most people can't carry more than a day's worth of water without it being unsafe. So we identified a number of areas that had 20 miles or more without water, and we've taken three different approaches. The first and the easiest is installing bare boxes at a road trail nexus so that individuals, we call them trail angels, can deliver gallons of water and stash them in the bare box. The bare box is necessary because it keeps the bottles out of the sun because just about every cheap plastic bottle does leach plastic in the water if it's hit by UV rays. And so if people leave gallon jugs out over time, they're leaching plastic into the water, which is toxic and could make you sick on the trail.
Matthew:The other nice thing about the bear boxes is that, if wildlife encounter bottles of water, they're gonna get it. And whether they are rodents chewing through it or whether it's cattle stepping on it to drink the water out, we found that, almost every animal that can smell or see or sense the water is gonna try to get to it. So bear boxes would be the the first. The second is springs rehabilitation projects. So there are a number of springs, especially like in the superstitions and the Mazatol Mountains that had become compromised over time.
Matthew:Some of them were failing because of fires followed by floods that essentially just choked the spring or the infrastructure that was delivering the water from the spring to like a spring box or or or some type of a publicly available source. So we've rehabbed about seven springs, which includes excavating them to get down to the source of where the water is coming out of the mountain or the forest, and then putting in new piping and then a new spring box, that just catches water. This is also beneficial for wildlife because then they have a running water source as opposed to having to dig just to find like moist soil. So Springs Rehab is the other one. We've done lots of successful projects there.
Matthew:And then the most recent one, which is very, very old technology, but very innovative when it comes to trail management, is remote rainwater collectors. And we looked at probably a dozen different designs where people were catching rain water, either for wildlife or for communities or agricultural uses. And we took a variety of designs and eventually came up with this steel rainwater collector that holds about 1,500 gallons. And we've installed two of those so far, and the third one is being constructed right now, like as we're having this conversation, at Redington Pass in between the Rincon And Santa Catalina Mountains. And we really love these because in areas where there are no other natural water sources, it does still rain.
Matthew:Right? And so it typically rains here in Arizona in the summer and in the winter. The busiest seasons of the trail are the inverse of that. It's spring and fall and so we see that these get recharged in the summer and then they get used in fall, they get recharged in winter, get used in the spring. Since we've installed them, they've never gone dry.
Matthew:And so when we were designing both the size of the catchment, it's about four twenty square feet, And then the size of the so that's the catchment surface. And then the catchment tank is 1,500 gallons. That is about five times what is currently needed for current trail use. But we didn't want to invest in these remote rainwater collector units for them to be right at the edge of what's needed. So we anticipated that if the trail continues to grow in popularity and it's getting five times its current use, we still want to make sure that this is a reliable water source.
Matthew:So, so far so good.
Host:A lot of effort putting into the protecting and constructing and building all of those resources. Yeah. And how does the association plan to maintain these efforts?
Matthew:I think from the very beginning we've been very like grassroots community organization even though we work statewide and the vast majority of maintenance comes from volunteers. So we have a very comprehensive, volunteer program where we engage as many people as we possibly can in the maintenance of the trail. And not just putting tools in their hands and getting them out there on the land to trim back the brush and to repair the tread, which is a it takes a it's a herculean effort every year. Right? Like, we have very intense storms when they do happen, so we see damage to the tread, which needs to be repaired before the next storm comes along.
Matthew:When it does rain, thorny bushes and things grow back in. And then in the drying Southwest, we see a lot of wildfires, and with that comes tons of deadfall. So we're probably removing, I would say, upwards of 500 trees a year easily from that have just fallen across the trail. And so this volunteer program, has many different levels, but one of the things that we do is we train trail stewards. And so an individual or a family or a group or a club takes responsibility for a little segment.
Matthew:We usually shoot for like four miles, so we've divided the whole Arizona Trail up into these short little segments. And you and your friends could be a trail steward for that one segment. You're supposed to visit it regularly, monitor the conditions, report on the conditions, and when there's maintenance needed, do it. Do the maintenance. And then here are the tools, here's the personal protective equipment, and here's the skills.
Matthew:And the skills part is taught through a series of eight classes. We call them Trail Skills Institutes, and it's the best program that I think that exists for training volunteers in the art and science of trail construction and maintenance that's out there. And the Trail Skills Institute has been around now for about seven years. We have a series of videos that people can watch. We have in person training events, But the idea is to get people to the standard of land management agency professionals or greater.
Matthew:I wanna have the best trained volunteer corps in America is my goal. And if we have thousands of very well trained volunteers who know the art and the science of caring for these trails, it doesn't matter what happens with federal agencies and their funding. Doesn't even matter what happens with organizations like ours and our sustainability. We've trained enough people with the best available skills, then I think that this trail is gonna survive, you know, in perpetuity. So the biggest part of of our maintenance program is volunteerism.
Host:And I understand you're developing a dedicated crew to the maintenance? Yeah, right
Matthew:now we have a crew of veterans, so military veterans who participate in our EZT Vets program, and they have a small crew of about five guys. And what they're doing at this point is remote maintenance that is just beyond the ability of most volunteers. So either it's too far away from a trailhead or the work itself is a little bit too intensive so that we can rely on them to be able to go out and get the work done. So funding them has been a challenge as a nonprofit organization, but I think that the concept of a dedicated crew to be able to do very specific immediate needs is vital, whereas the regular volunteer program is for general maintenance outside of, you know, catastrophic things like major wildfires and flooding events. And I think engaging youth is the other thing that is a huge part of both mission, vision and our focus because when I look around at historically who was involved with the Arizona Trail, so many of the people that were involved, like let's say in the year 2010, were the same people that were involved in like 1980s and the 90s.
Matthew:So there was this aging population of people that really cared for the trail, but I didn't see them really being, know, they weren't training their replacements yet. So we started a youth program in like my very first year because my goal is to get as many young people outdoors as possible. And the trail provides that access that we talked about. So we've been doing the seeds of stewardship program where we take groups of school kids out five times per year. So it's one or two outings just so they get stoked on the trail itself and going for hikes and then working with their teachers to integrate on the trail kind of curricula, whatever they're supposed to be learning in school, just have them teach that outside.
Matthew:And then we get them involved in trail maintenance projects or invasive species removal or trash cleanups, which are rare because the trail is very well cared for. But by training young people and helping them understand the importance of stewardship and volunteerism and these are your lands. Public lands, it is a community effort. Nobody's gonna help care for them except for us. And if we can empower young people very early on, my my goal is that as they, you know, grow up and maybe they move away and they find another trail organization or they end up coming back home at some point in their lives, that this is a resource that they they connect with and helps connect them to where they're from.
Host:You spoke a bit about enhancing the usability of the trail with the the water collectors. What other efforts do you all take part in?
Matthew:Yeah. I think we often interchange, like, and enhance.
Host:Yeah.
Matthew:Enhancement would be like water sources. Right? So we're improving water sources. The other part of enhance, part of our strategic plan and our mission is to make the trail better. You know, so much of the trail was put together with existing pieces of trail.
Matthew:So many of these existing pieces of trail were not designed very well, and they've been minimally maintained over many, many decades. And so in areas where the trail is on a road or it's co located with a road where motorized is allowed, we're building trail to replace those sections altogether. So that's a major improvement. And then in areas where the existing trail requires so many resources just to keep it maintained, we look at reroutes. And we do a lot of those.
Matthew:In fact, this past year, we probably proposed about 70 miles of reroute projects in the in the entire Arizona Trail system. Once those are approved, then we'll start to work on those over time. But what we found is that sometimes it makes the most sense to, you know, abandon trail that is not, it's not safe or it's not sustainable.
Host:And what do your promotion efforts look like?
Matthew:You know, I still feel like the Arizona Trail is the best kept secret, and we gotta fix that. So I think trying to promote the fact that the trail exists, it's free, it's open three sixty five days a year, twenty four hours a day. So the promotion is it's a lot like map distribution, maintaining a website, engaging people in media interviews, and just getting people excited to get out there. The perception for so long, and maybe it still continues today, is that the, oh, I could never do 800 miles. I don't have time to go for a two month walk.
Matthew:But we really try to promote that even if you go out for a quarter of a mile, you're gonna have an Arizona Trail experience. Say here's where trailheads are. Here's the best season to go. Go out and have a good time. So whether you walk for a mile or 10 or you know, people do the Arizona Trail all at once, Mexico to Utah on foot, mountain bike, and then other people are on the ten year plan.
Matthew:So they do a few miles here, weekend there, and over time, hopefully get to see the entire trail. But again, it's it's more than just the trail. It's it's visiting these communities that are nearby. It's experiencing all these different ecosystems. And I think the more time I spend outside, the more I learn about myself and my place in the world.
Matthew:And I love to think that people are having a similar experience in some way. If they're visiting, you know, high mountain range in the in the heat of summer and maybe you live in Tucson or Phoenix, but then going up to the Kaibat Plateau where the forest looks like you're in Canada, you know, there's spruce trees and fir trees and northern goshawks flying by bison wandering, you know, through they call them parks, but it's like meadows, you know. And so being able to be reminded, like, what an incredible planet we live on and what an amazingly biodiverse state Arizona is. Those are the types of experiences that I'm I'm hoping people have. And then if they fall in love with it, they're gonna tell their or they're gonna post about it on Instagram.
Matthew:And I think that we're not as worried as other trail organizations are about over promoting and being overrun. Like Pacific Crest Trail is a great example. Seem things seem to be going quite well on the PCT. And then there was a book followed by a movie, and then suddenly the whole world knew about the Pacific Crest Trail. And then they saw a tremendous spike in visitation, and so they had to really kind of shift into, visitor management mode in mitigating impacts, using a permit system to make sure not too many people are on the trail at one time.
Matthew:I feel like because the distance between natural water sources is so great, the fact that there are very few towns or communities that the trail passes through, and we we have such extreme climate, I don't think we will ever see the type of popularity that other long distance trails see ever. So we're at this point, we're not too worried about overpromoting it because the trail and the environment is naturally selective of who can visit and when, and it's also one of those trail systems that is very pleasant during some types of sometimes of the year. But then, like summer, most of the trail's off limits. And then winter, all the northern stuff is off limits. So you have this seasonality that encourages more of these one day or weekend or maybe week long adventures as opposed to all 800 miles all at once because it's really hard to find a season that is not too hot in the lower elevations and not buried in snow at the higher elevations.
Host:And finally, you mentioned education and outreach to support and sustain all these efforts. And you described some of your programs. What other education opportunities are there and how can anyone listen and take part in that?
Matthew:Yeah. I feel like the Trail itself and especially the Trail organization, it's very organic. It's constantly growing, changing, adapting. And the educational pieces have often come from, say, outside the organization. It was somebody else's idea or it was a college professor, like, somebody who works at a college in Arizona just developed a semester long curriculum around the Arizona Trail, integrating various elements of earth and space sciences, natural history, cultural history, and then there's extra credit for time spent on the trail itself.
Matthew:I'm like, wow. What a if I were going to that college, I would absolutely take the, you know, the the Arizona Trail course. How cool would that be? And then, local schools, many of the schools we've been working with over the past decade or so, both in Tucson and Flagstaff primarily, but lots of other communities as well, they are integrating elements of the trail into like campus culture, which is really cool. My favorite example of that is a very small school in Flagstaff, mostly indigenous youth in Flagstaff.
Matthew:And after going on a number of outings, the students themselves said, you know, we're driving to these trailheads, but we have this big school campus. It's relatively flat. We have a lot of acreage and we have all, you know, this this healthy forest nearby. Why don't we build a trail on campus? And so over the period of an entire school year, we taught trail design, which they were very involved in.
Matthew:So they were identifying what we call positive and negative control points, right? Oh, you don't wanna go too close the playground or the road, but we wanna you know, there's some natural quiet over here. And then they were involved in trail construction and now maintenance. And so here's a school that came up with the idea inspired by the trail nearby. And I think that this trail will be very well cared for because it's now like student designed, constructed, and maintained, and used.
Matthew:It's primarily for the students on campus to link to the community nearby and to link to the Coconino National Forest. So I think these types of efforts are ongoing and we're always open to suggestions too because the more people that are involved, the more sustainable this whole thing is. And the more people that are out there on the landscape, hopefully, we're growing a community of people that are going to be willing to protect it in perpetuity.
Host:Speaking of trail design and construction, what are the indicators of a well designed trail? And then vice versa, what does a poorly designed or non designed trail look I feel like
Matthew:the well designed ones for me, I forget that I'm on a trail. It's clear that I can see it, but I'm not constantly looking at my feet. I'm not stepping over down trees. I'm not, you know, avoiding, you know, brush that's growing in. So I feel like when I'm able to actually look up and look around as I'm moving, whether that's mountain biking or hiking or running or whatever, I'm like, that's a pretty well designed trail if I'm not thinking about it too much.
Matthew:My favorite parts of well designed trail are the way that they work with water. And it's it's interesting that it's almost counterintuitive. Right? Like, here we are in a very dry environment. The Arizona Trail is notoriously rocky, and the although the rocks change, the geology changes between Mexico and Utah.
Matthew:It's like it's always rocky trail. But it's so obvious to me when water is running across or over the trail and not right down the middle of it. Because as soon as it runs down the middle, it begins to carve a channel, that channel gets deeper and bigger, and then you really lose your tread. And then the amount of effort it takes to regain that and reshape both the land and the trail itself is a ton of work. So I love when I can really see how water is just gently moving across the trail as if it weren't even there.
Matthew:Man, that's one of my favorite things about well designed trails. I also like when they're not too steep, when I'm thinking more about how beautiful this is instead about how bad how badly I'm suffering. And, yes, we need to get from point a to point b over a very long distance, but when trails are thoughtfully designed and really working naturally with the contours of the land, yes, the trail mileage may increase, but the grade stays low. And I think that low grade helps with sustainability, doesn't require as much maintenance over time. It's easier to shed water off the trail, and then the people that are using it are having, hopefully a little bit more of a positive experience instead of trudging straight uphill or downhill.
Matthew:Negatively designed trails are very obvious because of the way that they don't properly shed water, you know, where it's constantly being eroded, massive boulders, that are rolling from uphill into the tread itself, or the way that, it's burned and it becomes, like a a channel almost. Once you have that, it takes a ton of effort, to repair it because breaking that berm and getting the water to flow across the trail instead of down it is yeah. It's heavy lifting either with hand tools or with small, like, light machinery, like a little mini excavator or something like that. But, yeah, I really love trails that take me to beautiful places and allow me to forget about most everything other than just being immersed in the landscape.
Host:What would happen should trail organizations like the ATA suddenly not exist?
Matthew:Oh, well, if if we are stalwart in our current mission to inspire and train as many people as possible in proper trail design, construction, and maintenance and protection, maybe we will become irrelevant. And organizations like ours won't even need to be around. If we can inspire enough people to do the maintenance work, then I think we would be alright without organizations like ours. But until we get there, my fear is that, historically, federal agencies, like, let's take the Forest Service for example, about 74% of the whole Arizona Trail is on lands managed by the US Forest Service. Four different forests in Arizona, Coronado, Tonto, Kaibab, and Coconino.
Matthew:But those agencies historically had funding for trail design, construction, and then maintenance crews. As funding has diminished over time, almost all the funding for trails has disappeared entirely. What little money that exists within recreation goes toward developed recreation. So we're talking about developed campgrounds, pit toilets, picnic areas, things like that. But more remote recreation is entirely dependent upon organizations just like ours.
Matthew:And so when you're out there enjoying a trail, chances are if it's on public lands, there are volunteers that are maintaining it. And in our case, much of the case with the Arizona Trail, many of the miles were designed and constructed also by volunteers or by our organization. So I think that we're proud to have become, like, a leader in this effort. But if our organization would cease to exist, yeah, we would have fewer recreational resources, and eventually, we would have fewer ways to access our public lands. I think without trails, there are enormous challenges.
Host:You spoke a bit about funding. What are the hurdles and obstacles and what does it look like in finding money and funding what you do?
Matthew:It's the hardest part of my job. There are a lot of joys, and there's yeah. There's a lot of challenge. That's for sure. Working with so many different agencies, many of whom have very different priorities other than recreation, working with private landowners, sometimes working with others who are also utilizing the landscape but for very different purposes, you know, conflicting uses, some people would call that, and whether that's, you know, ranching or mining or energy development projects or even, you know, sometimes water projects, there can be, you know, conflict with with the trail.
Matthew:One of the benefits is that sometimes we can move the trail. So if there's a project that comes along, where it's an incompatible use, but it is determined by the land manager that that use is the highest and best use, then we move the trail. And we've had to rebuild trail plenty of times to avoid impacts, whether that was a new development, a land exchange, mining project, and this is something that happens from time to time. But the other big challenge of course is funding, like how do we pay for this? And I think fundamentally and pragmatically, one of our biggest challenges is that what we provide is a free resource constantly.
Matthew:Right? It costs nothing to use the Arizona Trail and it probably never will, never should. Right? This is a public resource. And so convincing somebody to voluntarily pay in whatever way, whether that's a donation or becoming a member or you know sponsoring a project, whatever that looks like, convincing somebody that it is they should be or they are encouraged to pay for a something that is free, it's it's very difficult.
Matthew:And I think that many people and hopefully the the the consciousness is changing, but many people believe that trails just happen. They're just there, you know, maybe it was from an ancient footpath or, you know, from people riding horses or wildlife, whatever it is, like trails just happen, and then the maintenance just kind of happens naturally. I think a lot of people don't know that how much effort it takes. And if you've ever built or maintained a trail, you know how much effort it takes to help keep this resource alive. But I think that changing that consciousness is part of like, you know, how we fundraise.
Matthew:And hopefully, when people have these very positive experiences on the trail that they realize, like, wow, that was a priceless experience. These are amazing public lands. And what I'm what I know to be true is that if you go let's say, if you go hiking in many mountain ranges around here, if you're not on the Arizona Trail, that trail is not being regularly maintained by an organization with a staff of fifteen and twenty five hundred volunteers and an annual operating budget of like a million and a half dollars. That's why the Arizona Trail is in such good shape. Like, we are really good at what we do.
Matthew:But once you leave the AZT and you get onto a site and connecting trail, even being able to find that trail and stay on it can be an enormous challenge because there aren't a lot of volunteer organizations caring for, trails that aren't something as significant as like a national scenic trail, like the Arizona Trail is. And so my hope is that it when people have those comparative experiences, like, Now I get it. I get why this trail is in such good shape because it gets so many resources, human resources, financial resources, and just lots of energy. Corporations give some money, but that's a very small part of our budget. A lot of it is it's grassroots fundraising.
Matthew:Right? It's people who give $50 a year or $500 a year or somebody will include us in their estate planning. So after they pass on, they would leave us some money. We do some fundraisers, trail running events, and things like that. But our most significant source of income that isn't private or individuals is from US Forest Service.
Matthew:So we have an agreement with the Forest Service that essentially says, like, we're gonna spend a bunch of money on very specific projects, and then Forest Service will pay us back a percentage of what we have already spent. So it's like a reimbursement program and only a percentage. So what we bring to the table is cash from individuals, companies, fundraisers, and things. And then we also bring a volunteer labor force. And that volunteer labor force, like right now, we have about 2,500 volunteers that give about thirty thousand hours a year.
Matthew:And that is the federal, economic equivalent of like $750,000. So with the Forest Service, I can get like a $150,000 from them and in as a match, I'll be like and I'll match it with that much cash plus I'm gonna bring half $1,000,000 in volunteer labor. So on paper, they can say, wow. What an amazing investment. We can give the ATA a $100,000 and they're like, times 10.
Matthew:You know, the impact is 10 times what we're giving them. And that type of a cooperative agreement is something that is unique, but it's super beneficial. So we do benefit from some federal funding like through the Forest Service. But a lot of what I spend my time doing is I'm trying to chase down funding. Where does it exist?
Matthew:Who would want to give? Who should I be talking to? What grants are available? Should we do another fundraiser? Should we add more merchandise to our online store?
Matthew:You know, trying to get people excited about the trail. But I think the best thing that we can do, especially for fundraising, is just provide that pathway. Provide a pathway for people to have their own transformative experiences. And at some point, when they're reflecting on how much that experience means to them and flavored their life, that they recognize that this organization had something to do with that. That we were an important part of that experience.
Matthew:So hopefully, they would they would donate.
Host:To sum that up, bottom line, what's the incentive for stakeholders or decision makers, policy makers to give you all the money? Like what are they getting out of it?
Matthew:Yeah, I think depending on who I'm talking to, it's almost like there's two I mean there's so many benefits that the trail provides, but it depends on somebody's mindset. Right? If their mindset is more toward like community health and wellness, nature, spiritual awakening, those types of things, then we can talk about how trails are pathways for transformative experiences and how they benefit wildlife and how they benefit people. When we're outside, we're a happier version of ourselves. If we're happier versions of ourselves, then, you know, we're not gonna have a lot of the social ills that come along, you know, with living in in cities and all that.
Matthew:But, that can be a hard sell for certain people or that is just not within their sphere of understanding. So then we can talk about the economics, the economics of trails, which I don't like talking about because I'm like, I'd much rather focus on the health and wellness because that's really where my heart has always been and I think that's why trails are important. That said, what we know to be true is that the Arizona Trail and trails in Arizona contribute significantly to our economy. Most recent figures, so from 2023, showing that Arizona has about a $14,000,000,000 outdoor recreation economy. And if you were to compare that to every other industry in Arizona, it is either at the top or near the top.
Matthew:And some people assume that other industries produce a lot more, but the reality is outdoor recreation in Arizona is huge, and that's motorized and non motorized. And Arizona State Parks did a great study recently about the value of trails for Arizonans. Because we already know that, like, so 14,000,000,000 comes into our economy and employs, like, a 105,000 people in the outdoor recreation sector alone. But then what are trails worth to people beyond just, you know, the outdoor recreation component? And Arizona State Parks did a multi year study and what they found is that, the value of trails for people who live in the state is a little over 8,000,000,000.
Matthew:That's how much we're spending to recreate on trails within our state. So it's not even thinking about somebody who lives in any other state or especially outside the country because they that was part of that other figure. But we, as a state, spent about 8,000,000,000 to travel around the state and eat and gas and, you know, gear, you know, in small towns and things like that. That's what trails are worth to us. So if you were to combine those two together, like, we we're the biggest industry in the state of Arizona.
Matthew:So being able to share those figures, especially with decision makers or somebody within the Arizona legislature is important. And I think to our detriment, both as an organization and as a trail community, like, we don't have high paid lobbyists that are out there advocating on our behalf, but at the state, regional, and national level like other industries do. We should because we are as powerful as any of the other industries out there. However, we're not as well organized because we're having fun outdoors, and that's okay. I'll take that over over anything else.
Matthew:But I think the more that decision makers realize that this is a vital resource and it's an economic resource, and it's a very low cost. I mean, all the figures that we have seen that show that, you know, communities that invest about a dollar in some type of a recreation trail near their community see a seven to one return within three to four years. So if a small town is looking for like, oh, how do we diversify? How do we attract people? How do we benefit locals?
Matthew:How do we we're always advocating for trails. It's a very low cost investment. It locals benefit from it, and then it brings in people from the outside who have very positive experiences, and it's very light on the land. Aside from them driving there usually to get to a trailhead, once they're out there, very, very light on the land. So, yeah, I think sharing as many stories as possible and beyond just the numbers and the figures and, like, the the philosophical, I think the personal stories is what has the biggest impact.
Matthew:And I've heard that and I've seen it firsthand. So when I've had opportunities to bring people from the community who have a a an Arizona Trail story to share, I think oftentimes that that's what leaves the biggest impact. And whether that's, like, somebody from our veterans program talking about how nature really helped him heal from the wounds of war or young people that have been through our seeds of stewardship program that are talking about how their time on the trail really helped formulate who they are as a young person and what they want to study when they get older, or people who just have these wild stories to share about their time on the AZT. I think it's those personal stories, that have the biggest impact.
Host:I know you veered away from the money thing for a moment, but what would you do with a 5,000,000 check?
Matthew:I would put half of it in our endowment fund. We have a very small endowment fund right now. And, you know, the deal with those is that, we can every year they generate interest and we use the interest generated to support programs, operations, staff, that kind of a thing. My goal is to get our endowment fund up to about 10,000,000. If we had 10,000,000 in an endowment fund, the interest generated annually would support all of our core staff, which would be outstanding and wonderful.
Matthew:And then additional supplemental fundraising could support programs, operations, things like that. The other half of the $5,000,000 check, I would probably put towards our construction projects. I think that oftentimes we are we're investing in the environmental studies that allow projects to be approved on public lands. But then once they're approved, the where does the money come from is oftentimes a big challenge. So right now, I've got a handful of projects that are sitting on a shelf just ready to go.
Matthew:We are ready to start building trail, but I don't have the funding that it takes to employ a professional trail contractor to drive light machinery followed by a hand crew. Because on average, right now, what I've seen over the past, say, like five projects is that on average it costs about $40,000 a mile for construction in the first year, some gates and signs, and then, you know, some routine maintenance mostly done by volunteers for the first couple of years, is vital. And so when I talk about, oh, we've got 70 miles of trail construction projects kind of, you know, in the hopper being studied right now, times 40,000 a mile, like, it's yeah. It's a lot. It's it's significant.
Matthew:If you were to say, you know, what would you do with a 100,000,000? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Matthew:Go ahead. I would buy land is what I would do. Most of the trails on public land, we already talked about that. The part that I didn't share is about a 100 miles of the Arizona Trail are on state trust lands. And these were lands that were kind of gifted to the state when Arizona became a state a hundred and some years ago.
Matthew:And those lands are supposed to be sold at auction to the highest bidder to benefit the state and state agencies like state schools, state prisons, and, you know, state agencies and institutions. And so right now, we have a 100 miles of trail on these state trust lands. They can be sold at any time and that worries me. If there's anything that I'm like, the trail is not quite finished and it's because it's on these lands that could be sold at any time. And we do not have the kind of money that it takes to go to auction because almost everybody who's buying state trust lands are large scale developers, and we don't have the kind of money to compete with them.
Matthew:So what I would really like to do is to buy all the state trust lands that the Arizona Trail is currently on, and preserve them. And whether that land is owned by our organization or whether we would turn it over to, either a county or a federal agency like the Bureau of Land Management or the US Forest Service. Those are little things kinda to be determined. But, yeah, that's what I would do with a with a big chunk of money. And I think that that's been one of my goals with this organization is to get all the road segments replaced by trail, to get a fat little endowment fund going so that the the organization is a little bit more sustainable, and then addressing the state lands issue.
Matthew:Like, how do we preserve the trail that's currently on these lands? Once I do that, then, yeah, I can do something else.
Host:I intended to ask about the threats facing the organization and the trail and the environment in the wilderness areas that it travels through.
Matthew:Or Yeah.
Host:Do you care to expand it to any other threats or challenges like that?
Matthew:Yeah. The ones that I well, the ones that I didn't really anticipate up until recently are kind of the current attacks on public lands as a whole. And that is that's happening, you know, because of this current administration and some members of congress who do not like the idea of public lands. They would much rather see public lands turned over to states for states to manage and or sell. And so that is something that I keep a close eye on.
Matthew:Almost all Americans agree, I think it's like in the 89% of people who have been polled about public land say, absolutely this is an important resource worth protecting, funding, maintaining, etc. And even still there are members of Congress and somebody in the White House that doesn't have that kind of connection to public lands and so there's constantly legislation or executive orders or secretary orders that are happening that really undermine the foundation of what it means to have a trail on on these public lands. And so I think that's that remains one of the biggest threats is that people that are making decisions that don't have a connection to the natural world, that don't have a connection to nature, that don't have a connection to this outdoor recreational opportunity that is really, can be incredibly beneficial for individuals. So that's, I think, a a a constant, challenge, and I'd say something that threatens the trail. The other big threat, think, is, like, impacts of climate change in the West.
Matthew:You know? Every year it gets hotter. Every year it gets a little bit drier. Our summers are getting longer. Wildfires like this past year in 2025, about a 100 miles of the Arizona Trail were closed this summer in different parts of the state, mostly Northern Arizona, but we saw about a 100 miles of closure, 35 miles burned directly, and then right now, 25 miles that are still closed, shut down to everybody because they are absolutely unsafe.
Matthew:Very high intensity fires, lots of standing dead trees, moonscape, you know, where a forest used to be. And once it rains, then you've got flash flooding and, you know, all kinds of issues. So I think a big threat is what do we do with the best available science to protect the trail you know for the long term. And so one of the things that we hope to do is beyond just basic trail maintenance, I really want to get more involved with like forest health initiatives that are, a half mile on either side of the trail. So this is identifying where there are, unusually high fuel loads and gathering up all the material, and then working with the Forest Service or whatever land manager, you know, to burn those.
Matthew:And then selective thinning. So working with arborists and conservationists to figure out in which parts of which forests would it be beneficial for the landscape to do some selective thinning. And so Flagstaff on the Coconino Forest has done a very, very innovative job of addressing that issue, and so I wanna be able to use that as a model because they are protecting a big chunk of the Arizona Trail nearby, but apply that to all the other forests and all the other lands, that are prone to, you know, catastrophic wildfires because our forests have been mismanaged for about a hundred years and the fuel load that is accumulated is scary. And so if we, you know, rely on say federal agencies to get less and less funding every year to do this work, we're in big trouble. But Flagstaff as a city took the initiative.
Matthew:And I think organizations like ours need to lead the way, to work on preserving the forest, and not just for the trail itself, but for the landscape and the health of the forest and the animals.
Host:And for anyone that might be listening, what can they do to step up in the face of these threats?
Matthew:Yeah. I think time spent outdoors is our best investment. So if you're if you're not already spending a lot of time outside, do it and take your shoes off, walk barefoot, get out there, interact with the landscape. I think that is like the best thing that we can do. Beyond that, support organizations like ours.
Matthew:You know, involved as a volunteer or a member or a donor. Tell friends about the trail. Help people connect with this resource, which is just, it's a shared resource. Know, I feel like the more that people use the trail, fall in love with it, get involved, it adds so much color to your life. And you find yourself surrounded by some of the nicest people you'll you'll ever meet because these are people that are happy because they're outdoors and they're connecting.
Matthew:And I think there is this, like, this reciprocity that happens when you're doing positive activities on the land that you feel so good about what you're doing and it's very subconscious. And especially if you're ever doing trail maintenance like that, that getting your hands dirty, like doing that kind of work, you forever connect with that piece of trail. Anybody who's ever done construction or maintenance knows that if you go back to that spot in a year or ten years or fifty years, you have kind of a full body reaction to that spot because of the time and the energy that you put into it. So those types of experiences I think are further connecting people to the land and to each other and I think that's that's what I'm really kind of meant to do in this lifetime, and the Arizona Trail Association has provided me the opportunity to do that. So that's what I love to see people do is get out there and enjoy the trail and then get involved to help maintain and protect it.
Host:And this is coming from a trail builder's perspective. Anyone listening, if you're a trail builder out there, I know it's really hard work, but what you do is important. Take pride in your craft because you never know who's going to walk on that trail and have a transformative experience.
Matthew:So true.
Host:What advice or insights do you have for fellow organizations around the country? What are your lessons learned that maybe, you know, what you would like to see, whether it's like the Appalachia Trail Club
Matthew:or the Yeah. However. Yeah. I think I and Arizona Trail Association learned so much from the older organizations. Appalachian Trail Conservancy, Pacific Crest Trail Association, Cottonwood and Levi Trail Coalition, Washington Trails Association.
Matthew:Like, there's so many amazing organizations doing great work. When I look at like just the national trail system, so national historic trails of which there are 20 some, maybe there's 30 now, and then, I should know that Thirty thirty one, I think. And then national scenic trails of which there are 11. We represent all 50 states in The US. And so people can get involved with the trail organization in every state in some way, whether it's a historic trail like Santa Fe Trail or Pony Express Trail or Natchez Trace or whether it's a scenic trail like Pacific Crest Trail or Arizona Trail.
Matthew:There's lots of opportunities to get involved. I learn a lot from the older organizations, but I'm constantly being told like, wow, you all are so innovative. The things that you're doing, the way that you're engaging communities, the fact that we have a veterans program. Apparently, we're the only trail organization in the national trail system that has a dedicated veterans program. I'm like, great, everybody should.
Matthew:You know, what a great way to thank people for their service, for protecting these lands, oftentimes overseas, and what a great opportunity for them to give back, you know, to feel safe outdoors and to have a veterans community to surround themselves with and the youth program and, you know, wildlife and all the things that we do. But I feel like, you know, if there's anything that I have to share is that I believe that the critical mass component of what we do is the most important. We this is an all hands on deck approach. We want as many people involved as possible. And if we as trail organizations and nonprofits and federal and state agencies, if we can work together to really encourage people to get outside and recreate responsibly and safely and then get involved as a steward, then then I think we stand a chance.
Matthew:Like, we stand a chance as a country, a community, a culture, and as people that are trying to care for these public lands. Because the acreage is massive, And as federal agencies diminish in their capacity, we have to ramp up. So many of the things that we're doing now, we didn't used to do, we never had to do because we could rely on the Forest Service or the Park Service to do it. But when I look at, like, the funding attacks on these federal agencies, when I look at, you know, how policies are forcing them to do reductions in force, their capacity is diminishing significantly. So we as individuals and organizations, we have to ramp up.
Matthew:We have to increase the amount that we're able to contribute to this shared resource. Otherwise, these lands are in big trouble because they do need active management. That's something that we know from indigenous communities here in the Southwest and can very easily be seen with federal agency and how they manage lands over the past hundred years or so, is that it needs to
Host:be an all hands on deck approach. You touched on this earlier, but what are some of the common popular misconceptions that you come across day to day, whether it's coming from hikers or nature lovers or policymakers or?
Matthew:Yeah, I think one is people don't know that the trail is like the whole state and then it's just a single trail. I think a popular misconception is, oh, you work on trails in Arizona. I'm like, no, just one. Yes, it's 800 miles long where we're just, you know, committed to one trail. And the other is that I think a lot of people assume that their taxes go toward maintaining resources like this.
Matthew:And while, yes, we do get a small amount of money from the US Forest Service, the vast majority is funded by individuals who just love these lands and who love this trail. I think those are probably the the two biggest. Yeah.
Host:The ATA, Arizona Trail Association, does not stand alone in these efforts. What are other notable organizations or groups or people here in the region that partner with you?
Matthew:Wow, I am so lucky. We get to work with so many cool organizations. Sometimes they're like small clubs or groups that are very committed to like a specific activity within a specific region. So an example just here in Tucson would be Sonoran Desert Mountain Bicyclists. It's a local group, mostly mountain bikers, that do a lot of trail construction and maintenance.
Matthew:Torka is another one, Tucson Off Road cycling activists. They do a lot of maintenance kind of on Mount Lemmon, so we get to work with them. The County Line Riders of Catalina, so horseback riding group near the Pima Pinal County border, the Tucson Saddle Club, the Huachuca Hiking Club, Flagstaff Biking Organization, there's an amazing group up in Northern Arizona that we work with, and there are community organizations too, like the Lost Trail, Legends of Superior Trail Group, and they're near Superior, Arizona. Because the Arizona Trail passes so close to the town of Superior, they've done a lot of trail designation and now maintenance, and with lots of wonderful signage, interpretive signage, linking existing trails in that area, showing off like the natural beauty and the cultural history of the area. So there are so many.
Matthew:We're really lucky to be able to do this kind of outreach to say like, how would you like to be involved? Yes, we have a volunteer program. Yes, we have these things are already in place, but we see the communities that the trail passes through or near as really being its long term caretakers. So the more that we can engage these communities and get them excited about the trail being in their own backyard, I think therein lies the sustainability of the trail.
Host:What's your favorite section on the AZT?
Matthew:Well, the the section between Mexico and Utah. That's kind of my that's my favorite. That's one trailer. It kind of depends on where I am. I think about that question and the answer changes constantly.
Matthew:There are so many times where I'll be like, this is my absolute favorite piece of AEDT, this right here, you know, and maybe it's because it was after a fresh winter snowstorm up high in the Huachuca's or maybe it's, you know, watching the sunrise over the borderlands. I'm like, oh, this is the best segment. I really love the piece along the Gila River. Like, there's a really special piece of trail that before the Arizona Trail was built there, that area was extremely inaccessible because of private land issues and a land exchange and the fact that it's extremely rugged terrain. You just couldn't get in there.
Matthew:And so now that there's a trail there, it really opens up this beautiful part of the state that I just absolutely love. Sometimes it's a wildlife encounter and then I'll be like, yep, this is it. This is my favorite segment because of you know, you know, literally having, you know, a five minute, you know, unflinching experience with the mountain lion or being able to watch the changing aspen colors on the Kaibab Plateau. Like, there's a segment, unfortunately, that was severely burned this summer, but near the East Rim view. So you're like, you're in aspens, quaking aspens, and the leaves are gold, and you can look out across the East Rim and see, like, the little Colorado River and Navajo Mountain in the distance and just incredible beauty.
Matthew:So, yeah, it's impossible to pick just one. And then there's the Grand Canyon. Oh, like that. I mean, that is really one of the most beautiful environments I've ever seen on planet Earth is Grand Canyon and Ribbon Falls. Yeah.
Matthew:So I can't. I'd have to say somewhere between Mexico and Utah. Yeah. What about
Host:a good trail story here? Mean, something memorable or a close call, exciting or scary or or a story from somebody else? Yeah. Anything that sticks out? Yeah.
Host:I think one of the things
Matthew:that sticks out, at least at this very moment would be, I got to spend about two weeks just north of the Gila River before the trail was built. And so I wasn't working for the Arizona Trail at the time, I was working for an environmental firm, and they got the contract to do the final trail design and grade line staking it's called. And so we got to do, you know, the final piece of trail design, and then we're actually pounding in the wooden lath about every 50 feet to show the trail construction crew that was gonna come in right behind us to build it. And so walking across a landscape where there was no trail on very steep side slopes in extreme terrain, like low desert, beautiful, like interesting rocks, all like volcanic tough, you know, like rhyolite. And so spending two weeks out there and artfully, carefully designing the very last piece of this trail before it was completed, allowed me to interact with the landscape like I wasn't used to doing.
Matthew:And I was used to walking on a trail or biking down a trail, but here I was walking across the landscape and trying to imagine where the trail would go and then finding lots of artifacts. Right? Like, here we are in Arizona along the Gila River, which has been home to people for thousands and thousands of years. And having been trained in archaeology, whenever I would begin to see, like, artifact scatters or, you know, the density would increase of the artifacts we were finding, it's like, okay. It's very clear this is a cultural site, so we'd have to change the design.
Matthew:So go back sometimes 50 feet or a 100 feet or 500 feet or a half mile to then avoid this one area. And so it was this very careful interaction with the landscape that eventually became trail. And now when I'm on that piece of trail, it's a very different experience. One, because it's been, it's been, like, created. You know, now that there's this path there, I can enjoy the landscape a little bit more about having to worry about cholla and rattlesnakes and, all the stuff that we were dodging when we were out there.
Matthew:But, yeah, the trail story that comes to mind. Pre trail story that comes to mind.
Host:Yeah. As a trail builder myself, there's something special about compared in contrast to walking through a place and moving through a place. When you're on project, you're not really it's slow. You're not Yeah. You're not moving miles and miles.
Host:You might move an eighth of a mile a week. Yeah. And so you get this special experience instead of moving through an area, you get to see it move around you.
Matthew:Yeah, very well said. We even rerouted the trail around a tortoise den or tortoise burrow, I think it's called. So, you know, this piece of trail before it was built had been studied by at least a dozen people, both paper maps, desktop, GIS, and then out there in the field. And so numerous people contributed to the line that we got, and then now our our job was to, okay. Now finish it.
Matthew:Go out there and verify that this is the absolute best place for it to go, and then, you know, put the stakes in the ground. And at one point, it was in what seemed like the absolute best spot, and as we came around the corner, there was this big beautiful desert tortoise. And I realized that we were walking on, his land or their land. And I was like, I can't put the trail here. Can't put the trail right on top of, you know, your house.
Matthew:And so what we ended up doing was just a little redesign like, okay, let's drop down below, you know, this area. We did that a lot for, for cultural sites and things along the river. But yeah, very slow moving and very intentional. And I there are times too that I remember, like, I could look across this, like, the side slope of this really rugged terrain, full of cactus and hot sun, and I could literally see the trail. I could see a line in the land that was either my imagination or an ancient footpath.
Matthew:And I don't know which, maybe both, but it was so cool to be able to like try to imagine where the trail would go and then sometimes I was really shown like right here, like this is the line because I could almost like see this trail in the landscape. And so I think paying attention to those things and people that have the opportunity to to do that especially in the the trail design before it's constructed It's really, really magical way to interact with
Host:the landscape. And you having an archaeological background, I'm curious what lessons or insights you've drawn from ancient footpaths.
Matthew:Yeah. Beyond just, you know, avoiding cultural sites that are on the ground, which is kind of our commitment to tribes, is to not send recreation trails through through cultural sites. But, you know, beyond that, like I mentioned before, trails are cultural resources. Like, we have been intentionally and inadvertently building trails from the beginning of time. And I've been on some very interesting and meaningful, archaeology projects where we did discover ancient trails.
Matthew:And sometimes these ancient trails were just where so many people had walked, that a path was created. But oftentimes, there were markers, trail markers, stones, cairns that had been there for thousands and thousands of years. This is specifically the one I'm thinking about is like, Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge. So near the Arizona Mexico border, but in kind of the the South Western part of the state. And these were like these were salt trails where often people would walk from the desert to the ocean, specifically to gather salt.
Matthew:And when I was sharing one of these stories about finding these trail markers, you know, when we were out there, you couldn't really see that we were walking on a trail, but we started to and we were looking for artifacts, so things like, flake stone or bits of pottery. But every once in a while, we would come across a rock, what seemed like in the middle of nowhere that didn't really belong. So we started mapping those in addition to artifacts. And on the ground, we couldn't really see what was happening. But once maps started to be created, we realized, oh, these are trail markers because they're in a pretty much straight line from this mountain range where there are, you reliable water sources to the ocean, which is, you know, in that direction.
Matthew:And having worked with O'odham people and hearing these stories about, you know, salt trails where people would follow these trails from the O'odham nation here near Tucson down to the coast was pretty cool to to experience and to know that I was I was walking on a trail that people had been using for thousands of years. And then sharing that story like with Hopi friends up north, they say the same thing, that they had salt trails from the Hopi mesas into Grand Canyon. So they would go down into Grand Canyon to harvest salt from a couple of very specific places. And then the other story that I learned just recently that was very powerful, and it was a it's a a trail story or like a trail use that I'd never heard before is that the Hopi Cultural Preservation Office director came to a trail conference and heard a lot of people speaking about trails, and I invited him to come to kinda share Hopi perspective on trails. And one of the things that he shared is that he had no idea how many people in the state of Arizona were helping to care for these trails.
Matthew:Thousands of volunteers and tens of thousands of hours of, you know, maintenance over time and all these things. And he was so grateful because he said that in their culture, he believes that Hopi believed that trails are still used by spirits. So they're not just for us now, but like it's how the spirits move across the landscape. And by us protecting and maintaining these trails, it allows their answers ancestors to continue to move across the landscape. And just when I thought like, wow, I've never heard that before.
Matthew:One of my trail colleagues from Hawaii said, exactly. That's why we protect this Alaka'akai Kai Trail. They're the other ATA, the Alakaha Kai trail association on the Big Island Of Hawaii, and they maintain this trail. And I'd always assumed it was a hiking trail, but no. It's an ancestral trail.
Matthew:Oh. And it's specifically to allow ancient Hawaiian ancestral spirits to continue to travel across the landscape between villages that, like, people are really no longer there, at least in our sight or vision. So I think the trails, yeah, they're deeper than we know. You know? And I think that it's impossible to walk across the landscape and not interact with people that have been there before.
Matthew:And like me seeing an imaginary trail across the landscape, it probably was a footpath. And just when I think like, wow, seems like nobody's ever been here before. And then you look down at the ground, you realize, oh, actually, look, there's pottery. Oh, look, there's flake stone. And native people have left their mark on this land.
Matthew:And when we look at archaeology, if we just look at the science, which is ridiculous, we can say that oh in this area like Tucson where we are now, we know that you know people have been living here and growing food and managing water and resources you know for at least ten thousand years. But we say that with certainty because that's the depth that we have dug and that we have discovered. But really, if there were more exploration, more excavations and discovery, those stories would just keep getting older and older and older and older. And I think we see that in that happened in New Mexico, in Utah, absolutely in Central And South America is that the more people, literally and figuratively dig, the more we realize that people have been have been on this land, like, really since time immemorial. So when it comes to trail design construction, I try to consider all those factors too.
Matthew:Like, how do we be as light on the land as possible so that we're not disturbing anything or anybody, past, present, or future, you know?
Host:I wanna ask more about your personal trajectory. Maybe from a career perspective, what were some of your early aspirations and then how did you move into what you do now?
Matthew:Think if I look at all the different things I've done, like from straight out of high school to now, which has been thirty five years, something like that, the common thread is connecting people to nature. And that was done through, you know, outdoor guiding and working as like an outdoor adventure guide for youth and adults, an outdoor writer, editor, photographer, anthropologist working in archaeology, repatriation, and now trail director. And I think that that common thread is like, how do I help people connect with nature? And so I think as long as I'm doing that, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I didn't really think that I would go to work for a trail organization.
Matthew:I didn't even know that was an option. Right? But when I got involved twenty some years ago just as a volunteer, and I was so inspired by all these people that were helping to build this new segment of the Arizona Trail, East Of Tucson. And that was my first introduction to, like, trail construction, and volunteerism in that context. And as soon as that happened, I swear it's like I couldn't get away from the Arizona Trail is what it felt like.
Matthew:I would go for a mountain bike ride on a in a random place and find an Arizona Trail sign. And then, you know, people were talking about the Arizona Trail and it was like another connection, another connection. So I feel like it found me or maybe I found it, I don't really know. But then once that union occurred, I couldn't shake it. I couldn't really get away from the Arizona Trail.
Matthew:And so when the opportunity came up, the organization was transitioning from, like, construction and maintenance more toward, like, protection outreach, which is when they hired me. And that was fourteen years ago. And at the time, I was like, what a great honor to work for an organization, but who knows how long this will last? And I thought five to seven years, which is probably the average for an executive director for a nonprofit. And then fast forward fourteen years, and I feel like I just started.
Matthew:It feels like I just started. I'm still trying to figure it all out. I'm still trying to, like, manage a heavy workload and not grow the organization too big, too fast, and, you know, find sustainability. So yeah. So what's next?
Matthew:I have no idea. I do miss working kind of in the anthropology context, but I've been able to do that a little bit through the Arizona Trail Association. We work with a lot of tribes in the state of Arizona. And more specifically, what we've been doing is working with indigenous communities and empowering them to help tell their their story about the landscape and trails and, resources. Right?
Matthew:Whether they're, you know, natural or cultural, which, you know, they're all kind of the same in my mind. So I get to do that a little bit, but I also get to work with so many cool communities, you know, statewide. There's like 19 Arizona Trail Gateway communities, all different and funky and cool and, unique. Flagstaff, Patagonia, Pine. You know?
Host:So yeah. From your experience, do you have a lesson or reminder that sticks out to you? Like, what's your greatest lesson for yourself?
Matthew:I think that the connectivity. So the trail to me really represents connective tissue as if it were like arteries or an artery that perfuses the organs that are like forests and parts and things like that. So even when I see a map of the trail, I don't see a line in the dirt and forest and, you know, deserts and things. I see an organism. And that organism is sometimes healthy, sometimes it's starving, sometimes it's vibrant, but it's it's constantly moving and changing.
Matthew:And I think caring for something that is alive is easier than something that is inanimate or just, you know, dirt dirt is very much alive. We know that soil is actually so it's alive, dirt is not. But the trail I see is like this living organism and all the people that are helping to care for it are like what is helping keep it alive and healthy. And so caring for something not just as an individual but that so many people are helping to care for, is super inspiring and so that that part of it I think keeps me very motivated and excited about what I'm doing. I do honestly believe that we as humans have been disconnected from nature for a little too long.
Matthew:It's only been a couple hundred years, but I think there's a lot of, cultural and environmental damage that's been done during that time. I think for a million years, we were very connected in nature, an integral part of nature. And then as we began to, you know, industrialize, move into cities, there was this disconnect from nature. And as soon as that disconnect happened, the land started to suffer and so did the people. Through this trail, through this organization, I see that kinda coming back together.
Matthew:And I think that that's therein lies our only hope for survival, quite honestly, as a planet, as a people, everything else is to is to come back together, you know, with nature. And whether we do that through hiking, invasive species removal, you know, trail maintenance, that is is secondary to just time spent on the land and reconnecting, you know, with the, like, the the truest version of ourselves. So knowing that I get to participate in that, knowing that somebody is out there right now on the Arizona Trail having the adventure of a lifetime, that brings me like immense joy. And it's easy to forget, I mostly work a desk job. I'm doing fundraising.
Matthew:I'm managing, you know, permits and agreements and all kinds of stuff. But knowing that there's somebody out there right now who's like going to sleep when the sun goes down and then waking with the sunrise, walking to the next water source, listening to the call of a red tailed hawk like, oh, like rich life experiences. It's nice to know that I'm working on a project that is helping breathe inspiration into people's lives.
Host:I was speaking with Rodrigo Sierra Corona from the Borderlands Restoration Network, and he was speaking on why we should be incentivized to work on the conservation of natural resources and, like, why why why should humans be so empathetic about saving the whales or the this flower or bee or when we're so self centered. You you touched on and resonates with what he said. We're getting to a point now where, well now we have to do it for ourselves. If we don't make changes in the efforts, we're noticing the impact ourselves now. Yeah.
Host:You know? Yep.
Matthew:And I think whether we're working to save, you know, a meadow vole or a whale or a water umble that, you know, grows down here and whether it's a strange plant around whatever, like, we're saving ourselves is what we're doing through that practice of stewardship. And so in a way to me it's like it doesn't matter what individuals are passionate about conserving. The very process of conservation is saving ourselves because we are the plants, we are the animals and they are us. Like we this is one big organism. Like see the trails and organism are really the planet is one breathing, beating heart and we're all one, I think.
Matthew:So it doesn't matter what we are conserving as long as as long as we are, I think that's
Host:the most important piece. Yes. There's an interconnective fascia Yeah.
Matthew:If you will. Yeah. Exactly.
Host:And then perhaps that may be a reminder and provide inspiration for folks who are perhaps in a similar role as yourself who are maybe getting burned out or exhausted or facing I mean, feels like they're facing a dead end or they're not making a difference. And it might feel like there's no one. There's always gonna be something to work
Matthew:lesson learned that I'll share, it's not my own. Please. But it's something that I hear often when I do have an opportunity to interact, especially with a thru hiker. Because when people think about a thru hike of the Arizona Trail or something longer like the Pacific Crest Trail, the first thought is I could never do that. But we're bipeds, Casey, you haven't noticed.
Matthew:Like, this is what we're meant to do. Not sit at the desk, not be on our phones, not drive a car. Like, we are we are biologically tuned to walking long distances, that's what we are built for. And so I can't do that, you have to throw that at me immediately. Then okay the life circumstances, I could never afford that, can So there's all these like immediate emotional mental obstacles that get thrown in the way.
Matthew:And the process of breaking all of those down, think, is very, very important just for human psyche. But then for somebody to arrive at the, I can do this, I'm going to do this and then actually undertaking it, every single person who attempts and then even completes a thru hike, their life has changed forever and very, very, very few of them ever go back to what they were doing before. And that's what I I try to like gently warn people like, oh, I don't want it, no spoiler alert, but if you're thinking of doing a through hike, you have to know your life will never be the same again. Are you ready for that? Are you sure?
Matthew:Because you can get over, you know, a lot of people, you know, over the financial hurdle and then, oh, get somebody to watch my kids or, like, who's gonna watch the dog and all the things. Those are logistics that can be managed. But the transformation that happens when you're, you know, going to bed with the sunset and waking with the sunrise and walking long distances alone a lot of the time and thinking and drinking water whenever it's readily available, eating simply, being quiet, like, that is like moving meditation. And how often do we allow ourselves to do that? For fifteen minutes, let alone a day or days at a time or for 800 miles.
Matthew:But everybody who I've ever talked to who completes a thru hike is transformed. And, like, what a cool project to be working on where that is happening repeatedly. I think we as an organization are adding to the health of individuals and their families and society just by providing a path. Like, don't have an intended experience, and we don't care if you hike, bike, ride, run, backpack, pogo stick. I don't care.
Matthew:If it's non motorized, it's legal. Go interact with the landscape in a meaningful way. And it's transformative. Not everybody can put it in that language, but when people share stories with me, that's what I'm hearing. It changed my life, and I didn't go back to my job.
Matthew:So if you're looking for a life transformation, some people might go to, you know, Peru and do Ayahuasca, but maybe just go for a walk. And you'll find that what you're doing is, like, the most ancient form of what we're meant to do. And just by that just by that alone, walking long distances through nature, I think that you're able to tap into, like, genetic memory. You're able to release a lot of distress that is part of our everyday lives that we surrounded ourselves with. So yeah.
Host:It's a great message. Unless you'd like to expand on it or
Matthew:No, that's Not a
Host:a great place to end. That's a good one.
Matthew:Thanks, Troy. And thank you. Yeah. What a pleasure.
Host:Tell me more about these ATA mugs.
Matthew:Every year we do a different Arizona Trail mug. They're handmade in Minnesota by a family, but we pick a different design usually from a specific spot on the trail. So either I or somebody will photograph a spot on the trail, we send that up, know, to the mug folks and then we say like, here's an animal that's often seen in this area, here's a photo of it, Here's plants that are often seen in that area. Here's a photo of it. And they create a really beautiful design that's like stamped into the mug.
Matthew:And I think we've done it. This is probably our eighth year that we've
Host:done it. We do yeah.
Matthew:So for donors who give a $150 or more, we send them a nice custom mug. And this one is like a nighttime scene on the Arizona Trail with blooming datura, like white flowers that come out at night and a hawk moth that hovers around the flowers, which is pretty magical. So that's what our mug is for this year. That's what I was moving out of the office when Oh, we have the mugs. Yeah.
Host:So for anyone listening, there's a chance to get your hands on these limited edition mugs by going on
Matthew:to aztrails.org and making a donation. Got it, aztrail.org and yeah, donation's about $150 or more, gets you a mug while supplies last. I think we usually order about 200 of them and try to move them out within a month, so there you go. Yeah. That's why I appreciate your invitation because I do feel like I'm I'm one of those like, oh, it's so much going on like every single day.
Matthew:But I think the invitation that, you know, I'm inviting you to participate in this, allows me to power down for a minute because I don't have an opportunity to think about a lot of the stuff that we talked about today. Right? Especially when we get into like trail philosophy and all that because it's more just like day to day getting shit done, raising money, hiring crews, you know, doing trail design, dealing with the wildfire, dealing with floods, trail closures, trail reroutes, you know, drama drama drama. So it's nice for the opportunity to, like, literally sit down and take a step back from a lot of the logistics in the day to day and talk more about the why, you know. So thanks for that invitation.
Matthew:Mhmm.