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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckman: Nicolas Topiol, what a pleasure to have you joining me on some future day. How are you today?
Nicolas Topiol: And wonderful, Mark. Always good to see you.
Marc Beckman: Look, I've known you for a long time now and you have been a pillar within the luxury sector. It's fair to say a pillar at this point, right? And um, I just want to get a sense from you as to like what's going on right now. We're in the, I think it's a tumultuous time for luxury brands. Um, LVMH fell short with regards to their earnings in the first half of 2024.
Burberry shares plunged almost 20%. I think it was at about 17 percent or so this summer. Sales are down in Asia and the Americas. I think both Burberry and Hugo Boss showed a 23 percent dip in those areas of the world. And Richemont Uh, dropped 27 percent in China alone. Um, the Swatch Group showed an 11 percent decline in sales.
So I'm trying to show like a broad range of brands here. what's happening in the luxury sector right now as we're, as we're recording this episode?
Nicolas Topiol: Look, I think it's, uh, it's multiple factors as always, uh, definitely geopolitical factors that are impacting the, the, I would say, the, the worldwide or at least in the West, the sentiment, but also in Asia. we see it in, you know, in the, in China, we were on the Asia side. Unbelievable ride for quite some time, um, and, you know, phases, cycles, we've all gone through that.
We have enough gray hair, or at least I do, to, uh, to see, uh, to see those through. The U. S. market actually was, uh, has been really interesting to me, as you know, I spend a lot of time there, and, um, When you looked at the economy and the numbers, um, everything looks like we were not in a recession, that everything was going well, although it's starting to, to change a little bit.
Um, interest rate went, you know, higher with inflation, but the market itself, uh, we, we felt, and at least I felt. In the various categories that we've been involved with, that it's been really slowing down already for at least a good year and a half, just after 2022 was a great year, post COVID, wonderful year for everyone, and then 23 started to, sort of second half of 23, we started feeling COVID 19.
A softening in the demand and in the consumption, even though I don't play with La Croix in the very high end pricing of luxury like some of the brands do, that we're compared to, I saw for a while that our price point, which is more contemporary, let's say, was suffering, but now we see that it's across the board and even bigger brands, maybe to the exception of Hermès, which is I think for me, a brand and a company that's just on a world of its own, uh, for many reasons, um, they see, they start to see that the party is, is a little bit you also see, um, one thing that I myself have a hard time to understand in terms of pure product, as we know in our business, is where it starts and where it stops. I mean, obviously we do marketing, we do everything around it, but if you don't have a good product that, you know, want to buy and you start, uh, you know, you bring in desire in the equation, um, then, you know, you don't really have a business.
I feel a lot of brands have raised their prices to a point where it's becoming, you know, I hate to say it, but for me, it's becoming a little ridiculous. I mean, the quality of the product, the ratio of the pricing to the quality is becoming outrageous. And, uh, when you see some, some of the brands selling t shirts for 1, 000 or sneakers for over 1, 000, or even sweatshirts for, for that kind of pricing, even, you know, ready to wear for any address for 10, 000 euros or in bags that are not worth it for that kind of price, where the same product was maybe a third or a fourth of the price only a few years ago.
At one point, when is it? much can you raise the price, right? And we know that brands have grown, and a lot of brands have grown, in terms of numbers. That's why those percentages are interesting, but need to be taken with a grain of salt, because how much of that is organic growth, pure organic growth?
How much of that is opening stores and expanding the retail footprint? Because we know a lot of those luxury brands have chosen to go full retail, more retail than wholesale. Years ago, we were more wholesale based, which is why the reason we had to go through a restructuring and then running the brand under a different business model now.
how much of that also is price increase? And, uh, yes, we've had inflation, but the price increases not from two years ago, three years ago. The price increases have started a while back. And the growth in sales comes from a combination of all of the above. And is the limit? We know even the wealthiest, most desired product at one point, there is, I think, at least I think there is a limit to the price and, uh, you know, and maybe we've reached some of that.
Marc Beckman: So that's interesting. It seems like you're mentioning a number of factors. Um, but you're kind of implying that inflation is not the cause alone to the luxury sector increasing their prices exponentially. Is that just like a brand, uh, thinking that they could pull more value out from their very loyal customer base or that there was just more, um, uh, there were deeper pockets, I guess, within the luxury consumer, um, segment?
Or are they just taking advantage? Sure.
Nicolas Topiol: I do believe that. and, and. And I'm saying that, I have thought, I've thought about it myself. You know, I see the, there's no, there's no, um, doubt that prices, inflation has been around, prices have gone up,
Marc Beckman: Sure.
Nicolas Topiol: and, uh, but at one point, let's say your, your cost base goes up by 5%, do you raise your price by the equivalent of what a retail price would be of that exact cost?
Or do you say, well, you know, this is an opportunity, everybody's raising prices, I can do a little bit more. try to gain a bit more margin. So I think there's, there's quite a bit of that has been going on. And then for, you know, the leading brands I've been doing this, not even, but I'm saying, what I'm saying is yes, inflation has an impact, but I think a lot of it doesn't have to do, doesn't have anything to do with inflation.
then it creates an umbrella pricing for other brands to give some air. Right? Then the brands that might be not as known or don't spend as much money in advertising might say, well, this used to cost, let's say a thousand euros. Now it's costing 1500 euros, which is, you know, in the scale of even more of the price increases over the last few years. Maybe I can take advantage of that. And some have done it, and I've thought about it hard, and sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't. Because at one point, I look at the consumer, and I said, is this product worth this? Because I don't think the consumer is stupid I'm sorry to use that word. I think the consumer is educated more and more.
there's a desire, there's an aspiration for many reasons that are different per customer. But at one point, I thought, I do believe that there's a, there's a limit to what you can do, but maybe I'm wrong. I mean, that's my, that's my belief.
Marc Beckman: Well, I think consumer, uh, sentiment is interesting. I also think just their basic interest in what they're buying is interesting. So when you look at a brand like Balenciaga, who, you know, is one of those brands guilty of marking up their product into that. That t shirt, 1, 000 range, hoodies at 500 range, at first maybe they were getting the demand, but do you think the consumer has gotten to the point where they're like, what's the value that I'm getting here, and by the way, Balenciaga, I'm upset with you for Taking advantage of me?
You said yourself, Nicolas, that the consumer is not stupid, so they must realize the cost of goods on even like the best quality hoodie is not going to cost, you know, they're not keystoning it, it's not 500, so the consumer must know it. Do you think that consumer is turned off by brands that have done this, like Balenciaga?
Nicolas Topiol: Look, I think you're, I was not implying Balenciaga, but, um,
Marc Beckman: No, I know, I'm saying Balenciaga,
Nicolas Topiol: no, no, I know, I know. And I'm not implying, but I actually think that Balenciaga, creates, meaning they've really created trends. The oversized sneakers, the hoodie, the way they go about their, their fashion and the way they go about pushing boundaries. A lot of people would say, well, this is not of Balenciaga, it's completely different. But, you know, again, a different debate. The debate on pricing and products, I think Balenciaga is a little bit different. Uh, put aside the issues they've had and, uh, you know, with, uh, image, uh, in recent years, really pushed the boundaries.
They've created oversized jackets. I mean, and then a lot of people have followed suit. They've really moved the needle in fashion, which is again, another discussion of where fashion is. Um, so I, I actually have respect for the fact that they, they really have pushed the, the, the boundaries, they've pushed the needle.
Years and years ago, when I was really starting, after we just bought Naquah, it was really one of the brands that I did study, and you're talking 15, 20 years ago. What I was really studying was Balenciaga because even in those days, they were very smart at how they were building their collection plan. It was a lot more traditional in the fashion at the time with the Esquire, but the way they were approaching the collection plans was very smart to me.
And so it's a brand I've followed for a long time. It's evolved tremendously. So in the case of Balenciaga itself, I think there's a value to what they're doing. Should a consumer pay 1, 000 or 800 for a t shirt that just says Balenciaga on it? I don't believe so. I think this is a little, know, taking advantage.
But again, who am I to judge that? I don't want to judge because if people are willing to buy it, then it's great. But is there a limit? I think there is. So in the case of a hoodie, for example, a t shirt, you know, you could use the purest cotton, which they don't. But it's not cashmere, it's not alpaca, or it's not something where you know there's a value in the material you're using.
And we're all about, you know, you start a fashion collection by fabric. I mean, that's where you start, traditionally. You go and you fabric, you find something that talks to you, and it starts. seen this with Christian, I've seen this with Sacha, and that's, uh, and our designers now, that's where they start.
And then they build their ideas and the collection around that. So we're not talking about you, you're spending that money because you're buying something with a very exclusive fabric. It's not the case. So it's really about aspirations. And it's also about because those brands are spending a significant amount in advertising, we shouldn't forget that.
know, the brands and the trends are of that stature are spending a lot of money in advertising, whether it's, you know, print digital, influencers, celebrities, you name it, and they've been very good at it. And, uh, and that's why people are going out there and it's creating a status. So it's that balance between What you're wearing, the status that it shows, and they've been playing on this for, for quite some time now.
So is it the end of that? Maybe, you know, the last year or so, 18 months, we, you know, we've heard the word quiet luxury. That's the opposite of what we're just talking about. that really staying? Is that more luxury? Sustainable? We'll see. It's, uh, you know, it's just getting started, but the prices are up there also, but at least looks like you're paying for quality that doesn't exist in the other brands necessarily.
The
Marc Beckman: Yeah, I think it's interesting. I mean, the luxury sector has obviously, obviously gone through corrections, um, historically, and maybe this is a correction period with, um, several factors that are at play, and it's always this delicate balance between, um, superior and inferior. Design with great commercial minds that propel these excellent houses forward.
We've seen it over and over again with the best houses over the past, you know, multiple decades. So we'll see what the CEOs of these storied houses have in mind as it relates to pulling back their creative directors a little bit, and then. I'm getting a little bit more realistic with regards to price points and while they're they have to preserve that profit margin But you know your brand Christian Lacroix is really an incredible brand and it's got an amazing history Um the founder, uh, Christian Lacroix, the individual is a french born Uh, designer, born in, in Arles, and I know that, um, early on he was inspired, uh, I think he told his father, his father asked him, what does he want to do, um, with his career, and I, I believe he said that he wants to create, he wants to be Christian Dior, um, tell us a little bit about how this company came to be.
Nicolas Topiol: company came to be, uh, was created in 1987 and the first, uh, runway, Haute Couture runway, and, uh, I don't know if you want me to go into a little bit of the explanation of what Haute Couture means, or actually meant at the time because it's a little different now. Haute Couture is a trade that's supervised under the Ministry of Industry in France, or at least it was then, you know, I haven't done Haute Couture since 2009, so maybe I'm, I'm old in my, in my, in the way it's run now, but at the time it's, um, it was a trade, and it was an appellation, as we say in French, which is basically a stamp.
You could call yourself a couture house if you were Approved by the Ministry of Industry, and that dated back to the 50s roughly. And basically had a number of rules where you needed to have two um, atelier or workshop. I mean workshop doesn't give a perfect translation but it's an atelier and you need to have one which was tailored for tailored clothing.
One was more for a flue which is more dresses. Um, less structured, and you needed to have those ateliers be based in Paris, you needed to have a certain amount of seamstress and seamstresses on the, the, you know, in those ateliers, and that's, and, and you were making one of a kind, uh, made to measure, made by hand, uh, dresses or suits or, you know, products.
so that's really what a couture was. So at the time, um, Christian, um, which actually didn't go to fashion school. He went to, uh, to the Ecole du Louvre, which is a museum school, um, to become a curator or in the museum industry. And, uh, and that's really his passion. You can tell. And, uh, He started, um, showing some sketches because he's a very talented designer and, and ended up working at, uh, at Hermès for a few years and then was hired by Jean Patou, which was a famed couture house at the time. Mostly known today, I mean, it's been revived but it's very well known for, for its fragrances. And that was in the early 1980s, went on to win two Dédor, which is the equivalent of the, the recognition of the best designer in couture of that year. that's when Bernard Arnault, um, when he became famous and Bernard Arnault, uh, which had in his portfolio at the time, LVMH didn't exist, uh, Dior, he had acquired Dior because Dior was part of a big French textile group called Boussac.
Bernard Arnaud had acquired Boussac, and Dior was in there, and he saw that's, you know, what was the premise of what we know today, which is incredible success story, an incredible company that has been built by him. And then he saw Lacroix, and he poached him from Jean Patou, and basically opened his own business.
Gave him the financing and the ability open his own couture house. Um, so that was in 1987. July 26 was the first runway. And, uh, and this company ran, I would say, the, the traditional way, um, at that point, except Christian was everything but traditional. uh, so from couture, you usually go and move into high end ready to wear, which he did.
It was a classic. collection called Luxury, uh, which was launched in 1988 or 1989, I believe, then morphed into a more normal first line, uh, designer ready to wear line. And in the mid 1990s was a, uh, uh, another ready to wear line called Bazaar, which is, uh, Bazaar de Christian Lacroix, which we used from Time to Tie Steel, that brand, was very successful.
Sasha Walkoff, who's our creative director, which has been with the company since 1992, has helped us, um, you know, still a great company that we are today. He's a super talented designer. um, so he was a studio manager for that line. Then they went into creating a third line, which is not a very good idea, called Jeans de Christian Lacroix.
And this one they gave us a license. the licensee basically was copying Bazaar. And, uh, so when we came to the, to the picture in 2005, when we acquired the business from LVMH, when I say we, I work with a family that's based in the U. S., the Fanelic family, and their main business is in travel retail.
And we had bought a few other brands from LVMH before, um, cosmetic brands, one called Hard Candy and then one called Urban Decay, that we helped restructure, we restructured, Urban Decay now is part of L'Oréal, and, uh, anyway, when Lacroix came, thought it was an amazing opportunity, Um, I was actually very surprised that LVMH would be parting with that brand because that was the only brand that ever started.
And for the, for the story, when I was in college in France, I did my thesis in fourth year before graduating and in the world of haute couture in France. So I had a little bit of history and I was 1987, I graduated, which is the year Lacroix was started. it's funny how life brings you coincidences and through finance, I came back into fashion.
Marc Beckman: it's kind of interesting if you go back in time a little bit to the 80s though, like when Arnaud bought or financed the inception of La Croix. His designs, his style, were really reflective of the abundance of the 80s, right? Really bold color patterns that he created, um, big, um, volume, voluminous, um, dresses, like really, really In your face kind of designs that were really symbolic of the 80s.
And I wonder, I'm just thinking back to the conversation we had a minute ago about consumer sentiment, um, it doesn't seem like his, this hallmark design, um, evolved over time, right? And I, I wonder if the consumer to a certain extent post 80s said, you know what, those bold, Um, expressions are not for me anymore.
And I say this with respect to La Croix, because obviously there's a very strong place within all of society for those types of designs, even today. However, I wonder if that initial success, um, you know, really just never evolved enough to keep that customer, um, uh, in, in place with the company to, uh, create a profitable business model.
I know, I know, for example, that the. Business model, um, really struggled with finances for years leading up to the global financial crisis in, you know, 2008, 2009, but, um, you know, it, it kind of like catapulted out after R& O financed it, the designs were really strong, I think it was reflective of what was happening in society, but then at some point it just started to, um, slow down a lot.
Do you, do you think that had something to do with the lack of evolution of prints and design?
Nicolas Topiol: no, I don't think so actually. Um, I think Lacroix really came onto the scene when he was working at, uh, at Batuu. So, you know, he was known, known, the brand is still very much a print driven brand, and we can go to that maybe later in the conversation, but, uh, his iconic design with the pouf dress and all this, all that really was started at Batuu, and then he brought this into Lacroix.
And, but remember at the time, there's also a very strong movement in the sort of second half of the 80s of Japanese brands really bursting to the scene and coming with very monochrome, very black and very monochrome designs. yes, the 80s were, were, were, uh, were very strong. Um, but then you had this movement and this moment in fashion where it was very quiet. And then Christian came back with La Croix with his first runway, bringing a lot of colors. But when you see the runway of 87 was all about, was more about imprinting a style. know, bringing the mix of the South of France and Paris and, you know, and all the mixes that he had in his life to the runway.
And that's what people really like because it brought joy. It brought a ray of sunshine. It was all about the sun. It was all about the South of France. It was about the cross of his name and it was a lot about all those, those elements the first few years of his, of his couture career. And I think that's something where he created something new, even though.
had started it at Patu, and that's what people really aspire to. But usually, when you have companies like this, then, and you see it with other, um, couture companies, and, and, you know, and some are still doing couture today, quite a bit of them, um, then you move into ready to wear, then you move into accessories, then fragrance becomes a big piece.
So you take Gautier, for example, as a comparison, maybe a little bit older than, than Christian in terms of the, when he started becoming, but not much, he, his fragrance business is what kept him alive. And, uh, you know, and Hermes invested in, in Gautier and, uh, he also had, um, you know, an understanding because he created his own brand with a partner and then they, and then they, they went through the financial world, you know, they needed money, they raised money, they started getting diluted, you know, all that process isn't really, you and I know this is a normal process.
you have a venture and you want to raise money, you know, the next word is valuation and dilution and all this. Christian never went that because Bernard Arnault came, knocked on his door, poached him out of Jean Patou, created the company, funded the company, you know, with no limits from what I understand, or little limits.
he never went through this exercise of doing it out of his garage, let's say, you know, sort of the expression. And then raising the money, having to account to other people and all this. So I think, I think there's a disconnect between the, the value of the brands and the world and Christian, the work of Christian, which is fantastic and it's finances.
And I think you, it's not necessarily linked to the product. Obviously it is to a certain extent, there's also the way the company was created, which is very unusual in the world of fashion. I don't know many other stories like this. I mean, you do, but I don't.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, it's really incredible. I read that his first infusion of capital was in excess of 10 million dollars and then from there it was in fact unlimited. But he also had the benefit, I would imagine, of the back end infrastructure of Arnaud's business. I think at the time you said that he had already owned Christian Dior.
It was not LVMH yet, as we know it today, but there must have been some back end benefits that, uh, La Croix was, La Croix was able to take advantage of at that point in time too. Was it, was it fully vertical essentially at that point?
Nicolas Topiol: no, no, it wasn't, uh, I mean, I don't know how it was in 1987. It was a couture house. So that's more limited in terms of infrastructure. Yeah. go into ready to wear is really when infrastructure becomes an accessories and all this becomes more important. And all I know is when we took over the company, uh, Um, almost 20 years ago and 19 years ago, we, uh, Croix was the most integrated company in the central services LVMH because basically I think they started those central services with La Croix because it was the first one.
Marc Beckman: Right.
Nicolas Topiol: was always, Dior
Marc Beckman: Interesting.
Nicolas Topiol: Dior was always separate. And, and, uh, you know, for a long time, I don't know how it is now, but sort of on its own and, um, and La Croix was very integrated and then they brought Kenzo and all the other brands and, uh, um, you know, that's, that's how we grow.
And then the central services were put in place. So, you know, maybe a few years after that, when we bought it, we had to, I had to rebuild a whole infrastructure, which I had done also for Hard Canyon Urban Decay, it was the same story. And then you have to rebuild basically the whole backbone of the business, from the ERP, all the teams, production, finance, everything, logistics, everything, because
Marc Beckman: Amazing.
Nicolas Topiol: buy the brand and the front end of the business, the design, the sales, marketing, and all of that.
So, so Lacroix, I think to answer, you know, finish answering your question on numbers. Yes, it's known that Lacroix never turned a profit. am, and I'm proud of it. I'm not bragging about this, but I'm the first one who actually turned a profit with that company and it took a while. we make money, um, and, uh, we've made money for a while now.
And, uh, but it's, uh, has to do with many different aspects of, uh, of the business, the designer included. And, uh, I think, but I think at the core, core, because I really asked myself that question many times, as you can imagine, the fact that the way it was started. It was almost too easy, you know, and you know business, I know business, you know that business is great when it's easy, but it's rare uh, and you have to
Marc Beckman: Very rare.
Nicolas Topiol: to fight, you have to fight for it. You have to grind. You, you have good days, bad days, you lose, you win. in this case. Everything was there and it was like open gates. And I think that's the service structure of the business, where you create an imprint in the organization of the business.
Again, it's my interpretation. And I only take credit, you know, I don't take, um, you know, it's not from inside knowledge. It's just the way I've been with the brand for a long time, spoke to a lot of people. And, uh, but at the same time, we're still alive. work of Christian, the creations, the world, the money that was invested, the creations, his, his couture also a reason why we're still alive today.
And I, and I give him credit for that. I never forget that.
Marc Beckman: So,
Nicolas Topiol: for Christian.
Marc Beckman: and you had to make some tough decisions, um, around that 2009, uh, time period too. I know that you brought this company through a very, very high profile bankruptcy to get this company back on track. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like Um, looking, you know, considering bringing this company into bankruptcy.
It's, it's a very different experience with France. Um, and that's, you know, to me, it's always been a fascinating story. Can you, can you walk everybody through that experience a little bit, please?
Nicolas Topiol: Um, yeah, it was very difficult, very difficult six months of my life. Uh, but you know, when you go through a very difficult time, that's when you learn a lot about yourself and your capabilities. Um, and I was, you know, surrounded by, I have to say here, it might be awkward, but I have to say I really was surrounded by my family and my wife, and she really helped me through this, uh, emotionally because it was really hard.
I felt I had the whole world against me. Um, I did, and I, uh, fortunately, I had a really great trustee that was very helpful as well. Unfortunately, he passed away since. Uh, so I got lucky there. So basically what happened was, 2008 happened. As we all, or some of us remember, the younger generation, probably not.
And Lacroix was very much a wholesale based business. We only had a few owned store and we had some franchise, um, you know, in different parts of the world. I guess the biggest group was in the Middle East with, uh, ING Shalhoub Group, which were amazing. And, uh, but we were a wholesale business, basically.
Even if you have franchise, you're a wholesale operator, right? and, uh, the crisis happens. Yeah. Already we're in the middle of trying to turn around this business, which we're losing money, so we're still losing money. You know, I had a plan when we bought it. I thought it was the budget to hopefully turn it around was X, and it was pretty much on target.
Um, not exactly the way I thought it would happen, but, um, we had no choice. I mean, at one point, customers in the department store didn't come to the buy for the season after. Some of our customers, and not a small number of them, didn't come up to pick up their order for that fall for that, that season. So we were left with a business that was bleeding already.
And, and, and thought this, this is going to get really ugly. And, um, so we sort of wondered how we could turn it around. And, uh, know, we had some ideas and, um, And at one point, we saw no other opportunity, I mean, no other, say, um, scenario than, than to take the company through bankruptcy, try to bring in a different business model and, um, you know, and hope for our ability to keep the company, because usually when you take a company through bankruptcy, you lose it.
but I had, I had, uh, seen that in actually just that year, there was some changes in the bankruptcy laws in France. even though, uh, you know, I, I told my, uh, my shareholders that, uh, we, there's a big chance we will be losing the business. There was hope that we could actually keep it because of that particular change in law.
But again, it's, it's, it's, it's, Court process, as well as I that when you go to court and when you go through a process like this, who knows what can happen. So, um, we did file for bankruptcy in May of 2009. We had our opening, um, um, I would say hearing. In front of three judges, early June 2009, and, uh, and that was, you know, when I did that, it was, it was like surreal to do that, it was so hard. And then that hearing was, um, the judges asked me a question, they said, we, everybody knows that this business has never turned a profit. Why should we give you a chance to restructure it? Why should we just send it to liquidation? So fortunately I was, you know, I came prepared. uh, you know, as a good Wharton boy, I, uh, had brought my slides and my business plan and all of that, and, um, and I managed to convince them to give us, uh, six months, but under certain conditions, because they didn't want to carry the whole business for six months.
And they gave us the six months and then those six months were a whole saga because we had offers from a sheikh in the UAE that said he wanted to buy the business and then we came up with the money offered us at one point said we can pay you in opals. I mean, I could, I should write a book. A lot of people tell me I should write a book about this.
Marc Beckman: What do you mean pay in opals, like the, the stone?
Nicolas Topiol: yes, so,
Marc Beckman: had a sheikh in the United Arab Emirates offer to buy Christian Lacroix with
stones.
Nicolas Topiol: sheikh of Ajman, which I'd never heard of that emirate, but it's part of the UAE. And, uh, Okay. came in with a hundred million euro offer, made a deal with Christian. We made a deal with him. It was all great. I was super happy. I said,
Marc Beckman: So it was on paper.
Nicolas Topiol: It was all on paper, all went through court.
I mean, it's court, it's court. You have to put your offers in black and white. You know, it's not, uh, it's public. It's all public. And, uh, And I never came up with the money. I had another group that wanted to do a deal with us to to do a license and I told them for Haute Couture and keep all the employees and everything.
I said fantastic you have it for zero but I want a guarantee because in France if he fails then I have to take everybody back. So I said to him you have to give me a bank guarantee of such amount of money in case this way I'm covered in case you fail because I have to take everybody back. And so he gave me a guarantee.
Turned out that was a fake guarantee from a bank on the bank letterhead. Fake. I mean, you name it, I had
Marc Beckman: That's wild.
Nicolas Topiol: of the day, it was wild, but very, very intense moment for me. difficult because, you know, as I said, I became persona non grata in France in terms of fashion. I was the devil.
I terminated a contract with Christian. For 10 years, we didn't speak. We do speak now, which I'm very happy about. and I basically, we managed to keep the business, um, and we transformed the business model dramatically. Uh, we went from being, uh, about 140 people to 12, which in France is not, uh, something easy to do, um, because the criteria is for them to let you keep your companies, uh, the opposite of what you have in the U.
S. The number one criteria is how many people do you keep? Number two criteria is how many activities of your original activities do you keep? And number three and far behind is how much debt do you
Marc Beckman: who determines that? When you talk about that, um, kind of upside down approach in France, who makes that decision? is it, is it the three judges that you mentioned? Are those the ones who, but the judges have experience in the fashion industry?
Nicolas Topiol: Not necessarily. The fact, the court, it's interesting, uh, it's an interesting court in France. It's a commerce court. the judges that sit on the commerce court are actually business people. Like you and I, and they take a training and become judges in the Commerce Court, which idea is, I mean, they're fully vested with the power of the law and they're judges, but they're also, they also have a business or work in a business.
And they do this on a part time basis. And the idea is that because they understand business, because they understand, you know, conflicts or whatever it is. They'll have a better, um, understanding and it will be, it will, will bring better outcomes, let's say, or more equal outcomes, um, in conflict lawsuits and bankruptcy procedures.
So the budget is where people that, uh, where business people, and then they assign a third, a fourth one that becomes, basically runs the process while you're reorganizing, you know.,
that's that's the way it goes in France.
Marc Beckman: But why would they, why would these business minded people, these business minded judges make a recommendation that, that La Croix has to, um, stay very heavy with regards to staff if they know that cash flow is problematic?
Nicolas Topiol: Because that's the law, those are the criterias they judge the relevance of your plan under. So basically, we said, want to close Haute Couture, we want to close Ready to Wear, because those were the two areas, Ready to Wear mainly, were the two areas where we're bleeding the most. Couture actually, I had offered Couture actually, let's say, can we keep Couture, and then let me run rest of the business the way I'm running it now.
He didn't want to hear it, which is, it's just a shame, because that was feasible. so we had to stop Couture, because I can't
Marc Beckman: Right, because you're mitigating financial risk on the couture side, right? You're, you're getting the orders and building against
orders.
Nicolas Topiol: exactly, and, and, and I knew exactly what Couture was costing me, and we could live with that. Uh, as, as opposed to ready to wear, because, you know, the infrastructure is much heavier, and, uh, and that's where you need to do a minimum of sales, you know, to break even.
So I'd offer, let's do the Couture, do what you like to do, and then we'll run the rest the way I'm running it now on the licensing platform. He didn't want to do that, which is, you know, which is unfortunate, so I had no choice, and so I said, okay, we'll cut Couturier, we'll cut, we'll stop working with Christian, we'll cut Ready to Wear, we'll focus on building a licensing portfolio.
So in France, this is like I'm the devil, and um, how dare I, um, Tell Christian that I don't want to work with him anymore. And so that's, that's, that was a tough time, but we managed to, and that's the criterias that the judges have to go through. So I met basically, nobody else was better than me, and I met all the criterias.
We paid all the debts. But yes, we we went against the first two criterias because those two criterias are ridiculous. They're basically forcing you, they're trying to force you the reason why you went bankrupt in the first place. Well, some of the reasons, right? So it makes no sense, but you know, this is France.
Uh, again, it might have evolved since because this was a long time ago, unfortunately I don't have to go through that again. Now I'm more looking at other opportunities of companies that are going through that to see if there's an opportunity to buy brands. Um,
Marc Beckman: Interesting.
Nicolas Topiol: we looked at, and we looked at a few things, but that's, that's what I did.
So comes the end of, of, uh, you know, December 1st, 2009, I'll remember that day I was in court and they granted us our plan, which is full restructuring and. And I was going to rebuild the brand. From scratch, pretty much a licensing portfolio.
Marc Beckman: So let's talk about that a little bit. You mentioned earlier that you are the first person to bring this brand into a profit, a profitable business model, and you're talking about essentially trading on Christian Lacroix's intellectual property. You keep talking about licensing, I would imagine. So, uh, That includes several IP plays, whether it's licensing, co branding, direct to retail, international expansion, and beyond.
Today, um, as I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you have over a thousand points of distribution worldwide, with 60 still in France, and you're in the apparel business, you're in the accessories business, I saw you have some Beautiful jewelry. You're doing collaborations. Home seems very, very strong.
It really takes to these bold, traditional, um, Lacroix designs. So what is the current business model now? How did you take this company from, you know, what looked like a vertical, more of a vertical play into a profitable, um, intellectual property trading type of business model?
Nicolas Topiol: So, um, licensing is, is, uh, is a dirty word in France. I mean, not, not as much as it used to
Marc Beckman: So you're the devil and you're performing some dirty stuff over there in
France. exactly. I'm really, I'm really a person on grata, I can tell you that. But it's fine because I, I, I, I'm happy and, uh, and you know, behind the scenes and I'm happy doing my business and, and not being bothered and, and I don't really care what other people really think about it because what I care about is the brand. You know, what I do is I work obviously for my shareholders, but I also work for the brand. The brand has been around since 1987, as we said, so it's been a while, 36 years, um, and uh, I want the brand to outlive me, obviously. I want the brand to be around 36 years from now.
Yeah, I love that.
Nicolas Topiol: that's, that's, that's, that's what gets me going every
Marc Beckman: So it's 100 percent of the La Croix business, um, licensed today.
Nicolas Topiol: It is. hundred
Marc Beckman: So what kind of risks come with that though, Nicolas? Don't you control, still can you talk about caring about preserving the integrity of the brand and having it in a place where it will go for, you know, it will continue on for generations, but are there risks with, um, regards to hurting the brand's intellectual property when you have third party players involved?
Nicolas Topiol: Of course there's a risk, um, but that's what we spend a lot of our time doing, and I'll explain how we go about doing it, uh, and I can, and I, and I'm proudly saying, and you know, in the American market, we are present, and we actually have about 4, 000 points of sale around the world now,
Marc Beckman: Oh, wow.
Nicolas Topiol: and in the U.
S., in the U. S., for example, we, you can find our products All the way from Neiman Marcus to TJX, and I'm very proud of that because my, my goal is, and we can come back to pricing, I mean, we'll go full circle on pricing afterwards, but my goal is really to, um, hopefully put our products, uh, good quality products in the hands of, uh, Many and different, you know, I like, um, and I, I like the, the, the way I'm approaching, I've approached, and I'll go to the process.
I've approached this, this licensing model in terms of, uh, risk uh, financial risk is I want, I wanted to build like a department store. walk into a department store, the way a department store, you know, is built, you have, you have the ground floor, usually fragrance, cosmetics, accessories. So you need something, you need a fragrance, you'll go to the ground floor.
You get married, you want to register a wedding list, or you want to go and buy a gift for a wedding, you'll go to a different floor. You need this menswear, you'll go to a different floor. Women's wear, designer, contemporary, you go to different floors. So I wanted to go and be able to touch people in every moment, or at least a lot of moments in their lives. Uh, that was sort of the general idea. Plus, as I said, I'm, you know, I have a financial background, so I felt to the extent that it's obviously controllable, the more I, the more licensees or categories or territories I have, the more balanced my portfolio is. Not everything's going to work well at the same time.
everything's going to work badly at the same time, like a stock portfolio. And I'm hoping, you know, everything together with a diversification of products, partners, and territories will give me more stability in my portfolio. in my financial, um, you know, in the financials of the company. And it's proven overall to be pretty right, except for really moments in, you know, which are, um, you know, uncontrollable.
I would say geopolitics or market crashes or things like that, which affect everybody. and then the other thing that I wanted to do, and I, you know, I asked, first thing I did is I asked Sasha, if you wanted, if you could stay with me and become the creative director, which You know, it was Christian, right hand person.
It was for me to natural choice and an obvious choice, but not necessarily obvious for him, he took up the challenge and I told him, listen, what I think we should do. And we were talking about it and we agreed was a, we will focus on menswear because we did have a license at the time. So let's bring this up.
Nobody knew about it, but it was doing really well. And then we'll also move into home, which is something we had dabbled into, uh, a little bit with Christian, and I saw how he did his hotels, and I thought, you know, there's something there, the world of La Croix the way people talked about it, I thought, sense to do this at home, because this is a
Marc Beckman: For sure. Yeah.
Nicolas Topiol: scale, um, so that was the idea, and then the other thing was, The We wanted, and I wanted to really, I had seen that on the few licenses that we had at the time were doing really well.
So why was that doing well? And the rest of our business was not. And I realized it was quite simple actually, because when you mixed the, what we were really good at, and we're still hopefully very good at, which is creativity, I believe we're extremely good at that. Um, and you mix that with the best in class that focuses on one product, let's say menswear in this case.
And on certain territories, and they do this day in, day out, day in, day out. They know what price sells, what needs to be in the market, how to produce it, how to distribute it, you know, relationship with retailers or distributors, know,
Marc Beckman: They're experts.
Nicolas Topiol: then you bring their experts. Obviously you need to find the right companies.
They're experts in their field. You bring those two together. One and one has to be more than two. And that's what happened. that's, I had sort of seen that, and I said, if we can bring this to a bigger scale, um, this is, well, should be, um, a positive development. But I wanted to do licensing. For me, I have two, there are two types of licensing, and you've heard me say that, and, uh, you know, in some of your classes, you know, one is the, what I call the IP licensing, which is a lot more, you see, you know, I wouldn't say the US, but, you know, you know, in parts of the world where basically the branchers are saying, here it is, just, I just, what I care about is to make as much money as I can.
I don't really care what you do with the brand. Okay. Fine. It's a choice. then you have what I call the operational licensing, which is what we do, where I care what happens to the brand. I want to, you know, maybe I won't make as much money as I could. I won't monetize to an extreme, but at the same time, I want to create a legacy for the brand and keep it.
the way we do that is we basically continue to work. If you were here, you'd see the way we work. We have a studio. We have Sasha. We draw by hand. We create original prints. We don't buy prints. create at least 30 to 40 prints every year. Not a lot of houses do that, that do the type of business or type of business model that we do.
They usually go out there and buy prints. We don't. We create everything original. has a cost. That has, you know,
Marc Beckman: Sure.
Nicolas Topiol: behind it. But the benefit for me is that we create, we can be sold at Neiman Marcus. We can be sold at Neiman Marcus. Even though we don't produce any of this, it's our licensee that does that.
So that's, that's the way we go about doing it. And,
Marc Beckman: Yeah.
Nicolas Topiol: and I think that's, uh, that's how the brand is still relevant today. It has evolved, but it's, it still feels la croix. I can tell you what Sacha does is very different than what Christian would have done. But it still feels like one. And some of our bestseller, bestselling prints today are prints that have been created after the bankruptcy and not before.
Marc Beckman: That's very interesting. Um, is home the strongest category commercially for the company now?
Nicolas Topiol: No, it's pretty equal, equal actually. Um, is, is what's the most visible today, because even though I do a little bit of apparel, uh, with our second line that I've created during COVID, um, in the main line, they still haven't relaunched apparel because, and it goes back to the ability. I mean, not the ability, the, the, what I, that I want to create and, and control the brand.
it's hard to find the right partner. And I thought I did. I had a really interesting program set up before, just before COVID. We did some interesting collabs with young brands, one
Marc Beckman: Yeah, I remember you did.
Nicolas Topiol: Remember that? One from the UK, one from Hong Kong, one from Denmark. It was really amazing for me. I wanted to see how young brands would interpret our brand.
You know, I was also interested in, you know, being on their socials and seeing how they did that. And they were very excited to get the light and to be able to poke our archives. And it was great. And unfortunately, the last we did with Rixo in England, it was in February during London Fashion Week in February 2020, and three weeks later, everything was closed.
So that whole plan, which was going to come to light that, was shut down. And last year, I almost signed another license for apparel, the market conditions were so difficult that we decided not to.
Marc Beckman: Where's the demand for the brand strongest? What part of the world is, is, uh, really embracing the brand these days?
Nicolas Topiol: France still strong. strong place, and France is still a very good market. Uh, used to be much bigger, and that was part of my goals, was to diminish the, the weight of France in the, you know, in our revenues. Uh, in the rest of UK, obviously, all the countries around France, Germany, uh, Northern Europe, very strong now, mostly thanks to home.
Um, and then the UK, always been strong in the US, very strong, South America as well. Uh, we have a relationship with a, with a great department store there, um, and that's doing really nicely. And I would say over time, Asia is where, the focus, it's lost a little bit of a, not focus, uh, presence, uh, for a number of reasons.
But this is definitely a place where we're refocusing the energy now because that's where we could have tremendous growth.
Marc Beckman: Nicolas, you, you spoke to, um, this idea of having a multi tiered distribution strategy. You highlighted Neiman Marcus at the luxury end all the way down to TJ Maxx at the bottom or TJX, I guess it's called today. Um, do you have a branded hierarchy set up as well so that within each channel they're given a different piece of the Christian Lacroix?
Brand portfolio.
Nicolas Topiol: Yes, I do. Um, uh, the main line is Christian Lacroix. And then, um. We do have a second line that I started actually for the U. S. market, a very specific handbag license in the U. S. When I met the company HQ, we did, um, they wanted to bring, uh, the brand to the off price market. I said, that's great, but I don't want to do that with Lacroix.
So I said, I'll create a line, a new, a different brand, and which is called CXL, CXL by Christophe Lacroix. Nothing new. A lot of brands have second lines. I mean, a diffusion line, it's, I didn't invent anything. said, let's start and let's see how it goes. And, uh, um, it did really well. You know, and I was using that brand more on a spot basis.
I didn't have a full strategy behind it. And then COVID hit thought, you know, this is something I need to bring to the table. So I, I, you know, I did a brand book around that, that brand. I did a, I revised the style guide uh, you know, to use the logo a little bit differently because I'd heard what issues they had with the logo.
So I, I made it more flexible or more easier to use. then I signed 10 licenses within a month. And the idea was that this brand was the one which would go to this type of distribution. But what I did also, and you'll appreciate that, which I don't think many houses have done, I have the exact same team working on both.
From the studio, I asked Sasha to give us trends. I have the studio working on it, creating prints, I have the brand managers creating, you know, following with the licensees. I have the exact same people and I have a great team and it's a small team, working on both, which was very hard for them. Imagine going from working on La Croix and then go working from,
Nicolas Topiol: Line, which is CXL.
But it's the same. It's the same people. And why did I do that? I did that because I wanted consistency. I wanted everybody to know exactly what was going on everywhere. I didn't want two teams trying to fight against each other, which happens a lot. in those type of situations and you know the team took a while to embrace it I have to say but they they have fully embraced it now it's completely part of our culture I think that's what made CXL very successful and without Endangering and touching the mainline.
Marc Beckman: so this concept falls under the purview of creative control, approval rights, as it relates to deal formation. And really, again, going back to what you said earlier, preserving the integrity of, of the brand. It's just another layer of control that you're able to offer. But it's interesting, like, you know, You know, let's face it, luxury consumers are shopping for luxury brands at off price retailers like TJX today.
I mean, I would imagine that in certain instances, you're probably generating more revenue from the off price retailers than you are, you know, all the way up at the Neiman Marcus level. I'll leave that to you. You don't have to disclose that information today. But, you know, luxury brands are ubiquitous. I see it like in the fragrance industry forever.
The, the fragrance industry brands like Prada and Burberry and some of the bigger, um, luxury houses, they know that their actual product is being diverted back into the masses for distribution. It's a part of that profit margin and that, and that revenue that they're not going to let go, especially for these publicly traded companies.
They would lose a ton of money. Um, so in a way, maybe the definition of luxury. Has changed like, like aren't luxury brands ubiquitous today? Um, are they to a certain extent, mass brands just at a higher price point?
Nicolas Topiol: Very good question because really the question is what is luxury today? Um, and I'm, I will start, uh, with what I said. And again, maybe even a lot of people are not going to like what I'm saying, but that's okay. I'm used to that. besides Hermès, and again, even Hermès has grown tremendously. So, and I have, I'm saying this with the utmost respect. Louis Vuitton surpassed 20 billion in sales. 20 billion euros in sales. To generate that kind of revenue is, is with one brand, which is considered a luxury brand, is is incredible. So is that luxury or is that mass? What they've been able to do with this, with this, with this brand, I think is, is phenomenal because the, the, the, the impression or the feeling of the consumer is they're buying it.
A luxury brand. But is it really a luxury brand? I'm sure Bernard knows I'm not going to like what I'm saying, but I can see now that they're taking that brand and they're moving it up, but they're doing it super smartly between their core products with the LVLV and the canvas bags, all the way up to jewelry and fragrance and watches and, you know, um, I also think that, that Virgil did this brand, you know, An incredible, turnaround and elevated the brand in a different direction, which made it more, even more desirable than it was before.
So it's an interesting, so I think, I think you have this mix now between the brand, the culture, the music, the influencers, the celebrities. There's so much going on in that. In that world, that's the pure definition of exclusivity, of of when luxury was meant to be of couture, which still exists, and a handful of houses, very little in France, are doing it the way it's supposed to do, to be done in France, and what I explained earlier. This is only for a very small, very small group. The rest has become Another definition, you know, is it, should it be called luxury? Is it luxury? Is luxury just the aspiration of people, what it means for them and what they feel and the status that it brings they buy those products and they can show them when they go out and, you know, to dinners or wherever, to the office or parties or whatever it is.
So I think, I think the term itself is not what it used to be. It's not necessarily associated only with the craftsmanship and the quality of the product. It's also associated with, What it represents, and that's, that's a big difference, and that's where I think you can go into a situation that we talked earlier about pricing, where, where is the limit? Is it, the market slowing down in luxury because of You know, you've reached a high price. Um, on the complete other scale, other side of the scale, in my second line, my CXL, you know, when I have products that are, that are, you know, in off price channels, I tell my licensees, I'm okay with a lower price, but I'm not okay with a bad product.
I want this product to be the best product, if not, I'm not interested. But if you give the customer a great quality product at a great price, then you'll have brand loyalty. If you give great price and a shitty product, then you won't. That's the way I see it, and I can tell you, we've done programs with mass retailers in France with CXL 10 years ago already, with bed linens, and I still sleep in them every night, 10 years later, because they're good quality products, and that's what matters.
I think that's, that's where, at one point, are we going through this sort of world of celebrities and, you know, influence and all of that, and it becomes the main driver why people would want that product? that what matters or is it the quality of the product that matters? I'm not the one to answer that.
The consumer is the one to answer
Marc Beckman: It's kind of interesting because that allows for, that puts young designers also into a precarious situation where they're embracing, they're following the money. At the end of the day, it's a business, like you've been saying throughout this entire discussion, and they're following the money.
So even the 2019 CFDA Winner of the Best Women's Wear Designer, Brandon Maxwell, this week collaborated with Walmart during Fashion Week here in New York City. It's like, I don't know if you've heard about that, but it says a lot. Like, emerging talent and emerging brands are just not going to be able to break through the moat that luxury houses with deep pockets, brands like yours that have just a ton of equity and value to them.
They're not going to be able to break through and compete. It's just, it's just a fact. All right.
Nicolas Topiol: is. And I realized that a long time ago. So I'm not trying to be something we're not. And I realized that. And for me, the best way to express who we are and to do the best we can is through creativity and beautiful products. And hopefully, you know, and I think we do that. Beautiful imagery. Imagery is very important.
So one of the things we do also is the quality of our production, which we also do, obviously, with outside talent, but internally in terms of production, we do that ourselves. Sasha, you know, creates all of that. And imagery is really important. And I can send you some of that. You'll see or you can see it on our website.
But that's really important. And yes, I think it's difficult. the, uh, the, uh, Some talents, you know, we've seen some new talents emerge over the, over the, you know, the past 10 years. And I mentioned Virgil Abloh before because I believe he was a renaissance man. He was just incredible embodied and that's why he had the success that he had and it's so sad that he's not with us anymore but his trajectory and what he's done is remarkable because he really created new areas in the world of fashion which have become acceptable and uh and did it with uh you know with having a really great pulse and he merged Celebrities, music, art, everything together in a really interesting way.
And I think that's the world we're in now because everything is about visuals, about communication, the social media, and I think you have to take that into account. And for us, we can't compete against the people still compare us to the brand of this world. And I love that, but you know, we're not that, and, uh, we are in terms of legacy in terms of quality of work, but not in terms of advertising budget, there's no way we can compete against those people.
So, you know, young designers today, I think there's a lot of talent out there and hopefully they'll, they'll be able to come to life and some have, you know, and then we saw the announcement today with Sarah Burton, I mean, she's great and it's, it's really interesting to me to think, did somebody who had Like a very specific vision for a specific brand as a designer goes to another brand.
What are you going to do there? I mean, we've seen great success with uh, ID, we know with Slimane because, but he's bringing his touch and it's the same touch from one brand to the next, but it seems to work.,
Marc Beckman: let's, let's go back for a second. Yeah, let's just go back. For those people who don't know, Sarah Burton was the long time creative director for Alexander McQueen. I think, in fact, she stepped in after Lee passed away, um, and now LVMH has appointed her to the Givenchy house. And, um, I'm curious, there's like this trend, though, like, it's almost like you could balance the promise and the product.
Like, which is more important, superior product design, or or the communication campaigns. And if a woman like Sarah Burton was unable to, um, maintain and sustain McQueen's revenue, what is she going to do at Givenchy? Why is there like this rotation of the, you know, what these individuals who are positioned as like the best creative directors on the planet?
It seems like they go from house to house, from Gucci to Valentino, and, you know, Tom Ford just had this turnover with Hayter Ackerman stepping in now and all. Like, why are the same? Creative directors moving around this, uh, Ferris wheel of, of sorts.
Nicolas Topiol: Very good question. I think we had, trying to think, it was maybe 10, 15 years ago, was a designer led world. Everything, you remember, advertising was this brand by this designer, this brand by this designer. I remember having a lot of thoughts about that because, you know, I'm still running a, you know, a fashion and lifestyle house and a very renowned name. And I always thought, you know, is that something we should be doing? And I never really believed in that, you know, but we do, you know, Sasha is our creative director in editorials and press. It's always, it's put up, you know, in the front, would I put Sasha's name on Christian Lacroix Maison by, by Sasha Walkoff on an advertising?
No, I wouldn't do that because, you know, this is the brand and this is the designer. Those are two separate things. Yeah. But it was the case, remember, it was the fashion to do that, uh, a while back and then it sort of disappeared and then the wheel turned it became more, especially in the big groups, obviously, I'm not talking about emerging brands, hopefully, you know, which is a good thing of designers starting their own brands.
Um, and I just spoke to one last week and his approach is really, I think, very interesting and hopefully it works and he will go out and raise money. Um, so he's trying to do it on his own. And, um, now it seems that it's more of a management driven situation. So that the designer is not. And maybe, again, that's my feeling, and I'm not working at LVMH or caring on any of those big houses.
Um, that's the feeling I get from the outside. So you think that you can pluck a designer from one place and put it in another place. I mean, it's like everything in life. Some, sometimes in a very limited fashion, it will work. And I, and I mentioned, uh, you know, a DC man from Dior, and then, you know, Saint Laurent, Dior, and then, you know, Céline, and he's, he seems to be doing very well every, everywhere he touches.
Uh, but then. Givenchy for that matter, this is their fourth designer was reading. I remember the time of, of
Marc Beckman: Fourth in the past 10 years.
Nicolas Topiol: yes, with Riccardo Tisci, who, who really was at the very beginning, uh, with Marco Gobetti. They really made that great duo of management and designer that worked really well together.
I remember that. And that's when Givenchy really started. Growing tremendously. And since they both left, I feel that that brand is so it doesn't have a direction, you know, and it's not about, and this is, this is an amazing brand and it feels when you go through in front of a store, my feeling is that the only thing they're doing is they're putting Givenchy logo on everything.
And that's not sustainable, there's no creation, there's no idea, and that's where I'm saying that Balenciaga is very different because yes, you see the logo a lot, but they have a point of view and they push the envelope
Marc Beckman: That's for sure. They're also pushing the envelope towards youth culture, as you alluded to with product design, with emerging technology through the use of immersive verticals. But like creative directors, like established some of the best in class designers are now going to fast tech. retailers too, you know, I, I think Stefano Pilotti, who's arguably one of the best designers out there is at Zara now.
And I think Claire Wade Keller just recently, um, moved over to Uniqlo like does Uniqlo need someone at such a high level of talent? Is someone like Stefano Pilotti even able to like really flex his design muscles in a platform, a fast fashion platform like Zara?
Nicolas Topiol: um, you know, it's up to Zara to decide what will happen, but I think Yeah. is, I mean, I'm very, I, I I look at Zara all the time. I mean, I think Zara is an unbelievable company. I mean, they, they, they've evolved tremendously. When you really look carefully at what they're doing, they've evolved tremendously.
Their price point has gone a lot higher than it used to be. Their website is top notch. Their photography is top notch. They do a great job. So they want to go, and they said it, they want to go more upstream. Is that the beginning of it? Maybe for parts of the collection? I think if they manage to do that, it's, it's really great for them.
and move more into contemporary, perhaps. Um, Uniqlo has a history of doing that. I mean, JL Sanders was, you know, was there, has been there for a long time, or was there. I don't think she works there. I mean, she designs there anymore. But J Plus, I mean, she's been, she was there for years. So they have an experience with that.
And Uniqlo, which is one of my favorite brands, to be honest, I mean, I just think they're extraordinary
Marc Beckman: Japanese do things great. Yep.
Nicolas Topiol: Because they do bring great product at great pricing. Uh, so the, the, back to what I said earlier. And I think it's going to be interesting. Look, they've, they've, um, they've collaborated for years with, uh, J.
W. Anderson. They've done, uh, Ines. They've done a lot of collaboration like this. So it's nothing new for them. So I think maybe she's a replacement of Jill Sanders. But they've done it before. So I'm not, I was not surprised. Is it a good choice? We'll see. I, I'm not against that. I think, you know, if you really want to be a good designer, you don't necessarily be, should be the designer just for a happy few.
You should be the, you should be able to, you know, see your designs. In many places, and that's one of the things that I appreciated with Sacha, is one day he told me, he said, obviously, he's, you know, he's a designer, he's creative, he's very but at the same time, for him, success is when he sees his products in the street, or on the walls of people,
Marc Beckman: So, you know, it's interesting. I love your affinity to superior design. You've given us a ton of your time today, um, and when I finish each episode, we have a format where I start the sentence with the name, the title of the show, Some Future Day, and I allow for my guest to finish my sentence. So I'd like to talk to you about, in this way, about superior design, if you're okay with that. So in some future day, artificial intelligence will recalibrate the way designs are made in the luxury sector by...
Nicolas Topiol: by taking, and always taking, inputs from real people, and real designs.
Marc Beckman: Beautiful. NNcolas thank you so much for all of your time today. I really appreciate it. It's been great having you as my guest on some future day.
Nicolas Topiol: Thank you very much, Marc, always a pleasure to see you, and to speak to you, and hopefully we can see each other soon in person.