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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: If I were to ask you what factors create high performing teams, it's likely that trust would be one of them, and it is, but are we trying to create trust in the wrong way and are the trust issues we see in our teams actually caused by a deeper issue of a lack of clarity? Today on the show, I get to interview Pier and also Juliet Owen, chief Data Officer at Spotify to explore that question from the practical and analytical points of view.
[00:00:31] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We, not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:38] Pia: And I am Pia Lee,
[00:00:40] Pia: You're fresh back from Milan. You and I have been doing quite a number of think tanks, bringing some of our insights and data and having some pretty Robust and innovative conversations
[00:00:55] Pia: with professionals. It's been fantastic.
[00:00:57] Dan: The thing that before we get into the topic, I find it very interesting. We've done a lot of digital marketing, uh, over the years and, um, but in a sort of attention starved environment, um, we're finding these events really refreshing for everyone. We're getting such good feedback to actually, you know, go and see people, spend time with them, talk to them, break the bread together.
[00:01:21] Dan: and it's really worth thinking, I think, for our listener about building relationships. I mean, uh, you and I are huge fans of the digital medium, remote working and all those things, but there's something there, that is really special for people, particularly when it's not being done very much, isn't it? And as you say, the, the topics we've covered and the input we're getting from people at those think tanks has been really enlightening.
[00:01:43] Pia: And it's also given us a chance to really look at what the texts are, what's, what's the written material out there. And it's quite, quite interesting that, uh, Patrick Lencioni. Five dysfunctions of a team was probably one, you know, a landmark book, but it was written in 2002. And the world that we live in is completely different than it was 20 odd years ago.
[00:02:04] Pia: and it's been really. Interesting to challenge the rhetoric, which is, you know, trust is the foundation. It of course is a fundamental aspect, but is it truly the first thing that you work on? It might be the thing that you want, but is it the first thing that you work on, and is there an easier way to generate that trust rather than going on an offsite and sharing deepened personals or doing sort of.
[00:02:33] Pia: trust Ex Falls, exercise and things like that. So I think this, we are, we are gonna talk with Juliet, our chief data officer, and the person who is in the deepest, darkest embers of our insights. and this is a, pretty enlightening episode because we're gonna challenge that rhetoric. We're gonna demonstrate the value that clarity has. It is simple, but not easy. Therefore it gets overlooked. And it's one of those ones that you think, you know, does everyone understand? And everyone of course says 98% says
[00:03:06] Pia: yes, but they don't. And you and I in our work have come again team after team after team, where that lack of clarity has a knock on effect, strangely enough, trust. So let's get over there and dive into the conversation because I think this, this, this will give a lot for leaders experienced a new. Um, a whole range of teams and a really good starting point.
[00:03:32] Dan: Hello and it gives me great pleasure to welcome you, Juliet. Back to the, uh, back to the We Not Me studio.
[00:03:39] Juliet: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
[00:03:41] Dan: Excellent. Excellent. I heard, uh, there was, um, one of our clients recently a esteemed client said Your, um, your episode, uh, last episode was his, was his favorite. Yeah, I know. So, uh, so yeah, fan mail we're getting, it is pouring in, it's like Blue Peter, a non global. Non-global cultural reference there.
[00:04:02] Dan: But, um, so we're gonna do this one a little bit differently because, um, Pierre came with this idea because we're talking about this really important topic about of trust, and clarity, um, that. I could interview both of you, so to hear about the technical side, the numbers and the research, and also get the firsthand client experience from U Ps. So we're doing something slightly different, but the main thing is I'm in control.
[00:04:29] Dan: So that's, uh, that's crucial. Alright, so welcome both of you, Pierre. Thank you so much for doing this one as well. Um, this will be fun and no idea how it's gonna go. Um, let's start with the cards. I'm gonna introduce myself doing the cards.
[00:04:43] Pia: Oh
[00:04:43] Dan: Over to you, Dan.
[00:04:44] Pia: believe it. Over to you, Dan.
[00:04:46] Dan: Thank you Pier.
[00:04:47] Pia: It's upside down.
[00:04:48] Dan: What job would you be terrible at? This is a good one for both of you. I can't wait to hear this.
[00:04:53] Pia: Anything I, I know. Well, I think Julia, Julia and I have ha have hugely complimentary skill sets, which probably means we would dread each other's job. In many respects, I think is pro is my, is my, hunch here. So if, if I was reincarnated and made an actuary, I, I think I might go back to where I came from and, and not do it.
[00:05:17] Dan: You are, you, you're, you're hoping for worm, are you for your reincarnation or something? Yeah.
[00:05:22] Pia: yeah, I, I dunno whether there is a sort of dyslexia for numbers, but it definitely, it, it definitely plays out for me. So that, so the, mathematical detail required. would be one that I would find very difficult, but I can read data, but I can read it in trends across, I just can't read it in columns. Sort of like columns in an Excel spreadsheet can't, I
[00:05:45] Juliet: How could you say
[00:05:46] Pia: but it, pains me.
[00:05:48] Dan: how Very dare you. Yeah.
[00:05:50] Pia: I know. Whereas, you know, both of you have a weird and obsessive fascination for Excel to the point that actually that would make a good weekend.
[00:06:00] Dan: I was, I was gonna say how very, um, how very rude of you, but it's actually true. I think, Pierre, what I would say about you, I think the encompassing word I think about you is intuitive because you, you are able to sort of sense humans and what's going on, so, you know. Talk to a of this podcast, sometimes you'll send me a text message saying, are you okay?
[00:06:19] Dan: Well, no, I'm not, but how did you know? Um, you live 10,000 miles away. Um, but also, but in numbers, you just, you just have it intuitively. So, um, but yeah,
[00:06:29] Pia: I think that's 'cause I'm looking at the bottom right to see if it's in
[00:06:32] Dan: exactly. Isn't that a great.
[00:06:34] Pia: It's not, it's not that detailed. Does it
[00:06:36] Pia: stack up?
[00:06:37] Dan: isn't not a great sell as I call it. Um, right. Um, Juliet, what, what about you?
[00:06:41] Juliet: I, I think, I think Pier's got it exactly right. I think she and I are very well positioned in the roles we have and, uh, and yes, I confess a, a great affection for a spreadsheet and, and love to do research. Um, but I would be absolutely hopeless in a, in a selling role or having to go and present it at conferences or, lead senior teams. I, I have resisted running teams and managing people my entire life and hope to. Hope to retire as a, as a lone, a lone wolf,
[00:07:13] Pia: As an individual, an awesome individual
[00:07:16] Dan: but you are a great collaborator.
[00:07:18] Pia: You're,
[00:07:19] Juliet: I'm very happy to collaborate with others, but I wouldn't want, and, and thank you. And I, I like very much to work with other people. I just wouldn't feel confident in leading them, and that's an incredibly. Important. I mean, that's what we are all about here at Spotify is leadership and enabling people to lead in an effective way. And it's, it's very hard. And to do it well is, is hard. And that's partly why we're here to support people.
[00:07:44] Dan: Yeah, it's interesting. I think you, you do lead, um, just not in that, not in that way. That is often is, is wrongly painted of leadership is sort of standing up and making, standing on the tank and doing the show pony thing. Um, yeah, there's plenty, plenty of the talking animals
[00:08:01] Juliet: Quite possibly, but there are definitely yes, the selling, the selling side and that, person at the front of an organization is a, is a brilliant role that peer performs. And it's, it's not a, it's not a skill I've
[00:08:14] Dan: Well, it's great. I, it looks, sounds like I have a whole person to interview
[00:08:17] Juliet: indeed.
[00:08:19] Dan: That's very good. If only
[00:08:22] Pia: Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm gonna tell lots of stories and, and Juliet's gonna bring lots of data so that,
[00:08:28] Dan: that's
[00:08:28] Dan: exactly what we're hoping for. So let's dive into, well done both. That was a good card conversation and, uh, really where we, I think we got lucky on the card. So let's talk about, um, we're gonna talk about clarity, trust, and clarity. Peter, let's start with you if that's okay. I, we have a super complex world. It's funny, I was thinking about 10 years, 15 years ago, we used to talk about VUCA in our leadership development programs and things. We sort of think we knew nothing. We knew nothing, so we knew
[00:09:01] Pia: and and now there's new acronyms. So VUCA doesn't stand on its own, it has tuna. Barney next to it, which is not a dog's name, but actually that's, and I, and I can't give you what they all stand for, but it's generally, a sort of a, a, a cluster of different factors that cause a lot of pain for people.
[00:09:19] Dan: Yes, I, I think a tune of Banney is something you might have in an Indonesian restaurant, but, um, uh, but yeah, it's so many words to describe it. But p in this environment, what do people come to Spotify asking us to fix?
[00:09:34] Pia: So I think, because of the volatility and the change in the market, we, we, we've got new teams coming together. You've got new leaders and you've got new teams, and, and that's happening on a regular basis. and quite often leaders are coming in and they've had to move out members of their team.
[00:09:50] Pia: And so they're reforming. We had a huge period of restructures. Reorganization and that's caused, you a, a lot of change and a lot of insecurity, um, and a lot of challenges. So that's another reason. So they're the sort of meta reasons what then leaders are coming to us is my engagement scores have dropped.
[00:10:12] Pia: There's trust issues. People are, I've got interpersonal challenges. Productivity isn't where it needs to be. I'm worried about burnout. and how do I help people actually feel happy at work and have a, and have a strong relationship to mental health and wellbeing, so that there are multiple, multiple elements, but trust comes up a lot.
[00:10:36] Pia: You know, that, that you've got this group of people who are all very well qualified, all well intended, but there's something getting in the way of them really collaborating, really sharing, really building, an output that is greater than the sum of their parts. So something gets in the way. And then what happens is that the, the value of using Spotify is, it gives data which will, will allow Juliet to come in and talk all about the numbers in a second. But that's actually sometimes the presenting circumstance is not necessarily what the issue is, but that's what we find every time. So sometimes it is, oh, I've got a new team, but they don't seem to, oh, I've got one person that's a problem, but actually the data will unveil something else.
[00:11:28] Pia: and that's really what I think. Is interesting because you can have also a presenting circumstance of trust. But I think the question we need to ask on this podcast is, do you address trust first?
[00:11:40] Pia: and what's the pros and cons of that? Um, because we've been led to believe by texts that are extremely well known, and really prominent.
[00:11:52] Pia: good authorities on this, but they were written some time ago and they've led us to believe that trust is the, is the foundation of all teams. And I think that's, that's potentially, I think that's what we're here to,
[00:12:04] Dan: Yes, we are. No, absolutely. so Juliet, let's, let's dive into that. What is the, let's look at trust over the years. What's, what's the thinking on this? What's been the thinking? Can you take us into that?
[00:12:16] Juliet: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the. The, the core text probably that PI's referring to is Lencioni, which is with his, um, five Dysfunctions of Teams, was a 2002 book, and it really has been the sort of foundation of, um, team performance for 20 years. Um, and, and it was very good. There's a lot of really good stuff in there, and he defines the foundational element of team performance as trust.
[00:12:43] Juliet: That's his first dysfunction. If there's a lack of trust, you can't really build anything, um, in terms of team performance until you've got that sorted. and really what we are seeing is that I guess he was writing in a time when perhaps work, work environments were a little more stable when we had, you know, different challenges impacting teams.
[00:13:03] Juliet: And more recently what we've seen, and particularly from Professor Hawkins, from Henley Business School, is a real, a sort of a redirection around actually. It's about clarity. And so Professor Hawkins says, clarity around roles, goals, and processes is essential before a team can build trust and collaborate effectively.
[00:13:22] Juliet: So he's actually talking about in order to build trust, you've gotta build trust to do something in order to what? And if you don't know what you are trying to do, it's hard to build trust in a team for what?
[00:13:34] Pia: I think too, that when that text, when when Lenna wrote this 2002, it was quite revolutionary because we were actually quite, um, rigid in our management principles and the idea of trust was quite, sort of quite out there. You know, you could, You could invest in behavioral relationships to build trust.
[00:13:56] Pia: Um, and that it was seen as something quite different because up until then, it was your task and your role that defined you in a management hierarchical structure. So I can see how different it is. But since then, we've had huge tectonic shifts in the way that we work. We've had. COVID, we've had hybrid, we've had virtual ways of working.
[00:14:21] Pia: We've had, you know, a number of global economic challenges and I mean, I don't think in 2002 we were talking about mental health challenges and workplace loneliness. So it's a different, it's a completely different context and, um, quite frightening how it's changed in, in really only a 20 odd year time span.
[00:14:42] Juliet: Absolute. And actually in that context, you might forgiven for doubling down on trust, right? People are feeling more lonely, more, more, you know, there's greater mental health problems. Um, and you think, okay, trust is perhaps the answer. If we double down there and work harder at building trust, that's gonna make people feel more.
[00:15:01] Juliet: Confident, more happy in their work, but our research suggests that's not necessarily the case, not the most effective tool in the Arsen.
[00:15:09] Dan: So let's just drill a little bit more into this. Juliet. Could we, what, how, what is do. what is trust, first of all? How, how, you know, let's, let's, because it's, it's also one of the, I think one of the confounding factors, it's sort of very ill-defined. Sometimes people have this idea, but what, what, what, what is it? How do we see that?
[00:15:30] Juliet: So the best way to think about trust, I think is to turn to Maister and his, uh, book the Trusted Advisor where he defined the trusted equation. And it's really been something that's. That's remained pretty rock solid, um, over the years. So, um, they define trust as being the interplay of a number of factors, credibility.
[00:15:51] Juliet: That is your, you know, the, the fact that people believe that you are able to do what you can do. Reliability, that you do that thing regularly and, and. Reliably, so you will deliver against your commitments. And then intimacy. So around, that's really about the connections between people, um, and how you interact with one another and I guess, you know, build relationships together.
[00:16:15] Juliet: But all of that is divided by as in the opposite, you know, the opposite factor is self-orientation. So they put self-orientation on the denominator and they say the more self-oriented you are, obviously the lower. Trust is. And so we have these three factors. Some about your competence, some about your relationships, and then some about your, your self-interest.
[00:16:39] Dan: so sort of, you know things, do you, do you do things you committed to? And then that third one is that it's almost related to safety, isn't it? The, the intimacy. Do you I feel safe in that all divided by this self-orientation. I, I always think this is a, this is a really.
[00:16:56] Dan: Powerful one because it, it sort of makes sense. I feel like if you don't have trust with someone, it falls down on one of those things. Oh, I don't trust them to do that. Or, or, or I, I think this, they're all about themselves. I feel that they, that sort of works to sort of unpack, if you like, trust. It's always worked work for me. How does this look in teams pier? How does that all play out in the teams that you see?
[00:17:21] Pia: Well, I think sometimes the way that organizations are set up is actually a bit of the problem. So the notion of teams having. A collective responsibility is actually a notion that they are a sum of individual parts. So therefore, organizational goals are cascaded to individual KPIs. And then we miss the conversation about, well, what's the bit in the middle? Like, how, how, how do we come together as a team and how do we operate to create the result together and support ourselves in that process?
[00:17:57] Pia: And if you don't have that. Then it almost becomes competitive because it's like each of us vying on a survival game of our technical prowess, not really an abundant game about where we can collectively create results together.
[00:18:14] Pia: It's an and you're not, you're not looking sort of like, this is kumbaya and we all do really well, but I didn't hit my targets. That that's not the case. But an abundant mindset is looking at both elements. How do we create that? Because often if you put the time and effort into it, your team is going to outperform and so will the individual. So it's a win-win. But that trust starts to happen when you don't, when you don't have that.
[00:18:40] Juliet: and I guess part of the problem is that it's very rare to see team goals in organizations. They, they just, as you say, organization goals are cascaded to individual goals, but it's very rare that there's a team goal in there. So. It's very tempting for individuals to just deliver against their own own.
[00:18:58] Juliet: And so it, it, always puts the team at a lower level because it's not really what they're rewarded for. And I think that's a big issue that we've gotta change the reward, measures too.
[00:19:08] Pia: and that's sometimes that the, the nature of teamwork is considered a side dish, not the main dish, I mean that, that if we're really getting to the heart of it, it's that we're, we're slightly hero focused on individuals achieving it rather than the collective and, and, and all the data is screaming out.
[00:19:29] Pia: That's why people are not thriving in the workplace because there isn't that experience of coming together, understanding how to work together and celebrating
[00:19:38] Dan: In small groups. In small groups called in small teams. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I want to come back to that in a moment, but I just want to sort of just quickly check in on. On how trust is doing. Julia, what's, what's, what does a Spotify data tell us about the sort of state of trust today if we, if we look at it and how, and does it pay off this, this, what we've observed in teams of, of, uh, of, of low trust.
[00:20:03] Juliet: Yes. I'm sorry to say it does what, what we are seeing over the last five years is that, um, there's a trust gap emerging. And so what we, what we do is we ask, um, team members to rate. A bunch of factors in their teams, both for importance, which is kind of a wish of how they would like things to be and then present.
[00:20:23] Juliet: So how it is in their teams right now. And what we're seeing is that the desire for trust is increasing, um, but the actual presence of trust is flat or actually slightly falling. So this gap in trust is increasing and that's really. What is causing I think a lot of people to say, okay, we need to work on trust and build up trust.
[00:20:43] Juliet: Um, so we're certainly, our data is reflecting what people are coming to us and telling us. and interestingly, one of the. The worst performers, I guess in, in the trust equation is that we're seeing that it's that self-interest that is declining the most, and that's the, the big problem here is that people are very much be it.
[00:21:02] Juliet: It appears that people are much more inclined to take care of their own interests as opposed to the team, which I guess reflects your comment pier, that teamwork is seen as the side dish and not the main event.
[00:21:13] Dan: and there is a high level of precarity as well, isn't there? That you sort of, you know, you look out have to, people feel they have to look out for themselves. Um, they've got KPIs on their heads and they've gotta do their thing. And so it's, that's another fragmenting factor, isn't it?
[00:21:29] Pia: Absolutely. There's, there's a, there's a lot of insecurity needs in work today. You know, it's, it, it, um, if it's not. AI or restructures or shareholder interest. you know, then there's, then there's working with people that you have interpersonal challenges with or closing down a department or reduction of products or so, so there is that, and I think that creates actually higher stress levels, which then causes people to micro on the task.
[00:21:55] Pia: at the, sometimes at the loss of what they could build in terms of their relationships with across the team or how they can work together to do things. Um, it's also a leadership thing, so, uh, you know, we're never gonna be successful in a team where a leader doesn't see that there is value in this.
[00:22:13] Pia: and that becomes a problem in itself because there's some experienced leaders that are, that are exiting the corporate world. and junior less experienced leaders have not had the development to actually see the value of this. So they're almost at a loss. So they're playing to their strengths, which is as an individual contributor rather than a leader trying to create the conditions for their team to be successful.
[00:22:35] Pia: So that's a challenge too. And I, and I think that's one we've really gotta, gotta watch out for. I don't think it's intentional. I think, again, under pressure, people are reverting back to, what feels more comfortable and what feels, uh, more familiar.
[00:22:50] Dan: okay. So people have this sense that there's a trust problem. There is, um, but, but we are seeing that largely because, um, people aren't, aren't, aren't actually a team yet. How, Pierre, how do you go about. Bringing people together as a team so that they, so they, so that they can actually even start to trust each other. What, what are the steps?
[00:23:14] Pia: So what's interesting here is that when we first started Spotify, um, with the data, you know, we were learning from the data and the trends, and then we started to see that. whilst there may be low scores in climate and indicating trust issues, there were generally some lower scores in clarity.
[00:23:36] Pia: So what we started to do was actually put the focus on building that team clarity and making that a team. Experience, so not the leader going away. And, um, and creating that and quite a structured process through questions to determine what, why are we here? What's our purpose? What's our goal? what's our success measures?
[00:23:58] Pia: How will we track ourselves? Um, what's our strategic priorities? 'cause another part of what teams do is, is that they don't prioritize what they're focusing on. And so they try and do everything. And then, and then all, all, we just have burnout. Everyone gets exhausted. And then what do we have as our absolute non-negotiable ways of working?
[00:24:18] Pia: And, and all of that sits on one page because the other part is we can. Do an offsite, create a strategic plan, but then it's, it's not shared at every meeting, so it doesn't have a currency. This needs to be a document that people own a part of. You're getting the team to, to construct it, and that's what we've noticed as a really interesting element is that the building of that clarity drives up trust results, but working on trust doesn't actually impact clarity scores. It only goes one way
[00:24:52] Pia: and trust is a, you know, is quite a complex thing as you know, as Juliet's pointed out. But also, everyone's got different personalities, different um, relationships to work. It could take a lot of time. So what we've looked at is how do we start to get an uptick in results in 90 days
[00:25:11] Pia: and, utilizing the process to get that collective. Direction and to make that a collaborative experience that people feel that they own, and then actually then using that as the springboard to build out performance and, and also confidence. Then to start having the crunchier conversations about some of the elements of climate.
[00:25:32] Dan: I, I think that's, that's sort of crucial, isn't it? That why would you, why would you invest and take that personal risk of having those crunchy conversations when you, if you don't really know what you're doing with that person, you don't see yourselves in a shared endeavor, you know, doing something together.
[00:25:49] Dan: You know, Why would you bother if they've got their KPIs? I've got all my KPIs. Let's just, I'll just keep going and I'll just complain about them in the coffee room or whatever. Um. And it reminds me also of that. Client. We, we've, we've had that to, that said that, well, we encountered them, that they'd been on a two day offsite, a trust building offsite.
[00:26:08] Dan: And they said, okay, so now I know the name of everyone's cat, um, but I dunno what we're working on together. And I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a sort of anecdotal version of what you said.
[00:26:17] Dan: So Juliet, you've been working on some case studies on this, haven't you? So what, what actual, what re what um, have we got some data behind, behind this? What are we actually seeing is possible Not as what P'S talking about.
[00:26:29] Juliet: Yeah, absolutely. We've got, um, a, a lovely example of, of three teams that we worked in, in as, um, three senior teams in a global industrial automation business who came again with this same challenge of we need to build trust. And we talked through what the real issues were and actually started with building clarity.
[00:26:50] Juliet: Um, and just within. Um, within one year they worked on clarity and actually transformed that their, their shared visions, all three of the teams and clarity went up 17%. And in that time period, trust went up 13%. So what we're seeing is that the, our hypothesis is that actually improving the clarity enables them to build trust because they can build trust together around that shared endeavor that you were talking about.
[00:27:18] Pia: and, and I think don't underestimate the complexity of working in a matrixed organization. Fast paced multiple changes, and with the best will and intent, if there is no time to get to know your teammates, understand how you can work together, then you are just going to revert to siloed swim lanes and, and that's.
[00:27:41] Pia: That's what we see. And then when people are under pressure and they're being rewarded against their own individual KPIs, you, you create a more of a competitive, intense work, work environment. And so I don't think it's any ill intent, I don't think, I think it's just people in a pressure cooker.
[00:28:00] Pia: The nature of that, you know, of building that clarity and we're, we're looking at something here that you could do in a team session in, you know, potentially 60 to 90 minutes. It doesn't take a long period of time. You know, you and I, Dan, have worked with multiple of these and you could get it. Really good enough that the team can buy into it and then start to build out the skills and feedback.
[00:28:25] Pia: Um, looking at, uh, looking at the next level of clarity about how you prioritize in quarters and in months and how you make that transparent process. You borrow different elements from, um, agile principles. How do you see it? How do you get across all that information? So there's ways of really building it into the operating rhythm, um, of your.
[00:28:48] Pia: Of your work as your team. and I think that's really optimizing people's opportunity to perform and that raises trust. 'cause you also have trust that you've got a system that works.
[00:28:58] Juliet: I completely agree, Pierre, and I think what you are describing really reflects something else we see in the data, which is that quite often when teams start using Spotify, we get high scores for clarity at the top level. So people will score highly a clear goal, but the more granular we get, do you have a clear plan?
[00:29:17] Juliet: Do you have clear short-term priorities? Do you have measures of success? We get lower and lower and lower scores. And so in those sessions where you get people together, you can really uncover what exactly is their clarity that they have together. And then, and actually sometimes discover that people have quite different views of what, because at at a top level they have a shared clarity, but actually when you get to something more granular, they don't.
[00:29:41] Juliet: And so that exercise that you go through really gets them to reach a point where they have a shared level of clarity that goes deep. And that really sets them up effectively. Um, and then we see those, those more granular scores rising over time as the, as the team share in genuine clarity as opposed to a perception of clarity that's a little bit more, perhaps, organizational level rather than relevant to the team.
[00:30:07] Dan: Okay, let's drill down on that. But what's actually happening there? So people are, this is a, a good. Final point I think you're making, which is it sounds like, you know, if you talk to people about clarity, they say, yeah, that's absolutely number one. Vital. We've gotta know what we're doing. But in this situation, it's just sort of missed. It's somewhere what's, what's happening?
[00:30:24] Pia: I, I think we, we assume clarity to be honest, and we, and we make assumptions around it and it's quite high level and Clarity's got two parts of it. It's information. Understanding so you may have good information that's given out doesn't mean that people understand it. And if you don't make that a collaborative experience where people have had input, then there's, there's little buy-in.
[00:30:47] Pia: It just becomes another corporate, blah, blah. You know, another thing that comes down and, and it's just, it's sort of filed away along with everything else that, that's coming into play. You know, being, being fire hosed at you. Every day and it doesn't take prominence. Whereas this is probably the most important.
[00:31:07] Pia: You have your own KPI, but this is the most important piece of information you need to have. How do the eight to 10 to 12 people that I'm working with, what are we all here to do and how do I need to start building relationships and work with people and get support and actually find that I actually might enjoy their company in the process and learn something in it and I can, we can learn.
[00:31:29] Pia: Um, and build on the process. And that is the journey to becoming a high performing team. Whereas, um, sticking to your KPIs, uh, and grinning and bearing it is actually just, it, it's suboptimal.
[00:31:43] Dan: And Julia, you said that's backed up by the data that this sort of clear goal notion is generally pretty good, but those more detailed elements that are really going to glue a team together are, are le a lower scoring?
[00:31:56] Juliet: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it just, I think that reveals quite often the lack of clarity that people didn't, didn't know themselves. You know, it's, it, it's by, by answering those more specific questions. You come to an understanding that there's more to clarity than simply we need to grow revenue by 20% in our division or whatever that
[00:32:19] Juliet: is, because that's quite often a, a quite distant role, a goal, but it it, it needs to become meaningful to people within a team so that day to day they can make those decisions around prioritizing, around assigning resources about, you know, the day-to-day decisions, need more of a granular understanding of what's, what's required of them than that. Somewhat distant clarity that they quite often feel they have.
[00:32:45] Dan: Excellent. Well, look, let's start wrapping up, Pierre. Um, you've worked with a lot of teams, um, uh, and driven their performance, and it can be a, it can look like a I. An overwhelming task, a big task on top of things that people have already. What can, what can people, what can a leader who thinks I have a trust problem, in my team, but these two have now convinced me that actually I've probably got a clarity, clarity problem. What's a baby step that they can take?
[00:33:12] Pia: I think thinking about what, what information do I do we currently have, so that you may be thinking, oh, we've got a strategy doc document. It happens to be sort of, you know, 30 pages in PowerPoint, but, but actually, what information do I have? And then I think the first thing is, how do I make a one pager outta this?
[00:33:29] Pia: And if I'm gonna ask myself the question is to bring the team together to ask why do we exist? What are we trying to achieve? What's our goal? And what is our absolute non-negotiable ways of behaving? Now that's not everything on a clarity on a page, but that's a really good start. 'cause if you dunno why you're existing, then there, there's no little purpose and there's little guiding you. §But, but what does that collective goal look like that is bigger than anyone's KPI? And then how, what do we rely on each other for the way that we behave?
[00:34:02] Juliet: well, I, I would say as a, as a team member as opposed to a team leader, there's a, a big responsibility on the team leader to. set that clarity as peers described. But I think as a team member, if you're not sure, it, it doesn't hurt to ask, even if you ask a colleague or, or ask other members of the team and just experience that difference in what you are seeing as, as the objectives between the two of you and then, and that that will start to give you some visibility of the differences in your clarity and raise the question, I guess.
[00:34:34] Juliet: Um, so I think just asking each other what are we all. What are we all working towards is gonna be a good start to answering it.
[00:34:40] Dan: I think that's a really, and, and actually. You put your finger on something, uh, the key in a way, haven't you? What are we working towards? I know what I'm working towards. What are we working towards? I'm really thinking, you know, it's in the we not me thing, but um, but really focusing on that. Alright, wonderful. Let's close with a couple of media recommendations.
[00:34:59] Pia: It's a bit of an out there one. So my media recommendation would be, You can't ask that. And this is a series of people from very different walks of life, asking questions out of absolute curiosity. And I think that, We have a judgemental sometimes perspective, and this actually opens everything up.
[00:35:17] Pia: But also the nature of the questions is really interesting to get you to understand that perspective, and that is a part of, of trust. So not coming from a fixed perspective, but actually coming from, from, different elements. Very varied, very interesting, and uh, very good watching.
[00:35:34] Dan: thank you Pier and I, I've seen a couple of episodes of that and it is, um, it's wonderful actually. And it just shares, it's just a brilliant dive into the glorious diversity of, of humans. Um, Git what's your media recommendation for today?
[00:35:49] Juliet: Okay. Another non, not directly work one slightly out there, but I read recently a wonderful book called The Ministry of Time by Kellyann Bradley, and it's about people who are brought to the present day, in fact, slightly in the future from a time in the past. And so it's a really interesting exploration of identity and what it means.
[00:36:10] Juliet: To be a person in a, in a time and when you're taken out of your context. Um, so it's fascinating. It's also a beautiful love story and a really good thriller. So it's got a bit of everything in there, so I would definitely recommend it. no spreadsheets.
[00:36:25] Dan: it sounded very emotional. That, uh, amazing. Amazing. And I have actually read that and I, I loved it partly because the, um, one of the central characters, it's a. Beautiful depiction by a woman of a really good model of masculinity. I think he's a very good, um, a very good blokey bloke, but he's a, he's a really good guy.
[00:36:45] Dan: So, great recommendations that I hope our listener is, is just jotting those down or putting them in their notes to, to, uh, enjoy, um, in the coming season. But, uh. Thank you so much for both of you, for, for diving in and talking about this topic, this shift from sort of, I think we've got a trust problem to actually, we've got a clarity problem and, um, and backing that
[00:37:06] Dan: up with the data,
[00:37:07] Pia: it's the sixth dimension
[00:37:09] Dan: it is the sixth, the sixth dysfunction of a team that fundamental lack of clarity and it, it, it is the first thing, isn't it? So, um, and you've demonstrated that today. So thank you so much both of you.
[00:37:22] Juliet: Thanks for having me. It's been great.
[00:37:24]
[00:37:27] Dan: So let's get into the nuts and bolts of this. Pierre, you've you've worked on clarity with many teams, and we've seen the impact on team forming and on trust itself. But let's just, for the listener, let's talk through what does that look like? I mean, you create clarity, sounds great, but how do you actually do it?
[00:37:43] Pia: And there's something quite interesting about, and I'm sure this is how of the neuroscience of our brain. You need to be able to visually look at something that actually makes sense and flows and is simple enough to be on a page and you know, a number of the strategy decks that. We get sent going the team, we have this five year or three year strategy and it's very clear, it's not really clear. It's not visually something that you're gonna be looking at, most days and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:12] Pia: So it's gotta have a, it's gotta have a, a deductive flow and it's gotta be on one page and it's gotta have less words than more and it's gotta kind of be less corporate bs.
[00:38:24] Dan: Yeah. I started, I started working with the team recently and they sent me their strategy deck and it was, um, 45 stars long, I think, and I immediately think, right, you are not clear then.
[00:38:36] Pia: How could you be?
[00:38:37] Dan: I know there's a lot of detail. You have detail. Yes. You know, you're doing a product launch in a consumer market in Bulgaria about these things. There's detail, there's it fragmented. But that's not your direct, that's not your team clarity. That there's this higher level, isn't there?
[00:38:53] Pia: So that's the, yeah, that's the challenge of it. So, I mean, you know, sim in simple terms, you know, you need to know why you are, you are here in, in terms of what you're trying to achieve or as a, or as a team, what's your purpose beyond making money and what's, what, what are you out there to deliver? And that's a bit more of a, intangible deeper element.
[00:39:13] Pia: And then what? You're trying to achieve over a 12 to 24 month period, what does a finish line look like? What are you all collectively trying to achieve, and what are the success measures that you're going to measure yourself against? And, and it could be, you know, sales, it could be ebitda, it could be, you know.
[00:39:28] Pia: Share market or a whole bunch of things, engagement scores, whatever it is, but that's what you're going to measure yourself, and then where you're gonna put your focus of effort. This is the one where we lose the opportunity to get cross team collaboration because everyone otherwise just goes into their swim lanes.
[00:39:43] Pia: What are the big chunks, the strategic priorities that are gonna get you to that goal? And they're generally three or four of them. They're not, not, they're not massive, but how do we work together to achieve that? And then right at the bottom that underpins it, our code, our ways of behavior. What are we gonna call each other out on?
[00:39:58] Pia: What do we hold true about the way that we behave? these are just boxes, but they are cleverly put together to create a narrative flow that is, this is our team. This is what we're here to do, and we can check on this at the beginning of every meeting to kind of go, did we do that or not? And that's the level of attention it needs.
[00:40:18] Dan: Yeah. And I, that's, it's, it's, right. And I think, um, as you said, it's on one page, but what I see is, what I've seen in this is it has all of those, that sort of sense of meaning from purpose, the crisp, crisp point on the hill that we're all going to. I love that sort of physical analogy actually.
[00:40:35] Dan: The, the purpose is the sort of start of north. Star, but you know, where are we all going together? If you don't have a point on the hill where we're all aiming at, we're gonna be all over the hillside. And that's exactly where we find teams. and I just wanted to also just pause as you did on that one, about those points of effort, those sort of strategy pillars, you know, instead of the sort of functional, goals, what are you doing as a team?
[00:40:56] Dan: I think a great one is actually, you know, if you, if you take your responsibilities as a team. You know, you might say, we're owning the culture of the organization. We're going to nurture the culture, and we have to do all that together. And saying, what does everyone contribute to that? And instead of having a marketing strategy or a sales strategy, you have a, you might have a, a product launch that we're all working on.
[00:41:16] Dan: It's gonna require every one of us or most of us to get that done. Uh, as you say, that's, they're all pieces that stitch us together as a team. So, how, do you do this? How long does it take? Um, what, what's, what's the, what's the typical approach you use?
[00:41:30] Pia: there's generally a, a number of questions that are pointers. and they just get you thinking they're good to give out sort of, you know, five to 10 days before you do it. But this is like a 60 to 90 minute. Session, you know, and you can also get AI to help with a bit of the wordsmithing, but it's not as difficult, It, it, it, it really doesn't, it's not something you've gotta go and take a, a huge offsite to go and create.
[00:41:52] Dan: Yeah. I must admit, I, I, I've done these with teams, um, in, back in the day and, I have done them over a day or two days, but I don't think you get hugely additional value from that extra time. And it was sort of to make people feel engaged in the process. But they do in 90 minutes.
[00:42:11] Dan: So, and, and, and you get a crisp result. The other thing is that in these. We are not this, that was sort of very much, uh, you know, 10 years ago or more. As you're sort of, we're setting this up forever. We're going to have a five year goal and that's it. We're gonna stick to it. This clarity on a page is always a hypothesis.
[00:42:27] Dan: It's always a thing we're doing right now, to guide our actions. Right now you might find something and you change it, and you do that with clarity. You change that document. But it's not to say that. What you've gotta do is get this together and get it out there and have an experimental mindset about it and combine.
[00:42:44] Dan: I always think it's having that total commitment to what's on that page and also the knowledge that you might change it at some point together. You know, those two, the yin and the yang really of of clarity.
[00:42:57] Dan: So the squad at Squadify dot net if you'd like a template and some, a guide to these questions and how you can do this for your own team.
[00:43:05] Dan: Um, just email us and ask for the clarity on a page and we'll whiz that over to you. We'd be more than happy to do so and honestly it is makes a miraculous difference and the thing I would leave the listener with is you think you have clarity. without being rude, you probably don't, but this
[00:43:20] Dan: exercise, this, this focus will do it ish.
[00:43:23] Dan: Yeah. It's these sort of, we're quite clear. Yeah. Need to be better than that. And I think Pierre, just the other thing we've seen is that you need to sit on clarity for a while before really working on these other conditions. As we said with Juliet, there's a sort of threshold, um, otherwise why build a climate of trust?
[00:43:38] Dan: Well, a trust to do what? Until that's really answered. You, there's no point moving on. So
[00:43:43] Pia: this is the primer. This is the primer, and this will get everything going.
[00:43:46] Dan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, but that is it for this episode. We Not Me is supported by Sqaudify. Sqaudify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you are listening and also@spotify.net. And if you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Win Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:44:09] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.