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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
0:00
Today we go deep in the world of talent acquisition, learning how to attract, hire and retain Rockstar employees. Are you a leader trying to get more from your business in life? Me too. So join me as I document conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Ryan, England is a disrupter in the realm of talent acquisition. He and his team at core matters provide coaching and training on attracting hiring and retaining Rockstar employees. Using the core fit hiring system. small and midsize businesses learn to start hiring better people faster. Ryan has worked with over 100 clients helping business owners achieve their goals by hiring the right people. His book, hire better people faster is available October 17, and can help business owners take back control of their hiring and retention. Brian, welcome to On bat.
0:57
Chris, thanks for having me.
0:58
This is a we're gonna have a lot of questions about hiring because it's an area that I have had many challenges with. And so hopefully we can provide some value so other people don't have those same issues. Sure. And let's start. Start with your origin story.
1:14
Yeah, you know, I grew up in a blue collar household, my dad was an owner operator, and he would take me to work with him on one of the six or seven days a week that he would work 12 hour shifts, right, like you hear that all the time from entrepreneurs. And I thought I was hanging out with dad. And what really was happening is he put me to work. And I was inexpensive labor that did what they were told he didn't have to worry about me. And, you know, I did this. And I got to spend a lot of time with my dad, especially on the weekends when I wasn't in school. And as I grew up, you know, I did like any good son would do. And I did not go into the family business. Totally not interested, I'm gonna go doing things that went the college route, went and spent a decade in corporate and to learn that I am not a corporate guy. And so I finally decided, You know what, I'm going to go start my own company. And I'm going to support people like my dad, small entrepreneurs. In the home services space, I was drawn back to blue collar. But at the time, I was really, I was really excited about marketing. I was good at marketing, good at messaging, copywriting, all that so I did a lot of marketing work for these home service contractors. But what I found was, after a couple of years, lead gen wasn't the issue. Having enough people to handle the leads that was the issue. So pivoted into that, and a few years back, just became a coaching and training company because I wanted to teach people to fish. That was always my focus, how do I teach them to do this stuff versus them being beholden to someone else or recruiter staffing agency and always dealing with the the poor quality of people that come through that? How do we teach them to do this? And so that's what we do now at core matters. And I love it. Awesome.
2:57
Yeah, I've definitely felt the poor quality through your hiring recruiters before. Sure, just because the amount of work that you have to do to tell someone else what you're looking for, and make sure that they can then go find that,
3:11
and hopefully understand and get it and all that. Yeah, absolutely, without
3:15
having the context of everything else going on in your business. And so it just makes it harder. Alright, one of the first question just, why are people ghosting the hiring parties? Something we talked about?
3:30
Was for those that don't know what the term ghosting means, although I'm pretty sure everybody does. Now it's when you in the interview world in the hiring world, it's when you schedule the interview, and they don't show up. Or even worse, you make them the offer. And then you create a start date and they don't show up. And you can't contact them. They don't respond to you. Like they just they're ghost, they're gone. And you know, it's interesting, it's not a new phenomenon. It's been around forever. I mean, you want to say it's only been the last decade or so that we've used the term. But this idea that people just abandoned people and don't call them back because they don't want the confrontation. That's nothing new. But what we're seeing now, especially in the shift after COVID, is that ghosting beaker has become more acceptable in the mind of the job seeker. Right. Like in their mind. They've got no skin in the game. There's nothing that in their mind, it doesn't hurt anybody. It's just easier to not show up, not make the phone call not have that difficult conversation. So when a better opportunity comes up, or someone moves faster than you or their boss gets wind and makes them a better offer. They can't refuse. Instead of dealing with the confrontation, they just ignore it. And that's what we're seeing a lot. The number one reason that I think jobseekers think it's okay to ghost people now ghost employers is because employers have been doing it for decades. In fact, two thirds of job seekers will never hear back from an employer. They won't even get a rejection letter, because we don't want to talk to you. There's nothing. And when I talk to employers about that, they always tell me, Well, we're just too busy to get back to everybody. You've trained an entire generation of people that ghosting is okay. And so now they think it's okay. And that's why they're doing it.
5:25
And so separate from companies just not making that mistake themselves. Are there things you can be doing in the application process to minimize the number of ghosted?
5:35
Yeah, absolutely. So two things to remember, number one, looking for work is one of life's most stressful events. So when someone's applying for a job, it's a stressful time in their life. They're either in a toxic work environment, they just got laid off, they just found out that there's no career path for them. Like there's a whole bunch of reasons people start looking, it's stressful, they're taking a risk, putting their family's livelihood at stake to come work for someone else, very stressful time. The other thing to remember is that they don't have the luxury of a savings account, like you probably do in business, like we all work on margins and having some cash on hand. Well, the average American can't make it to next pay day. Like they don't have enough money in savings to do that. So if you don't move fast, and you don't make this process as stress less as possible, you're gonna lose them. Because there's somebody out there that's gonna move faster than you. And there's somebody's gonna make the process easier than you. And that's where people are gonna gravitate to.
6:37
Right. I couldn't figure out why when hiring people, I would just send them weekly updates on where their application was, because I felt guilty if things weren't moving super fast. Sure. And, and people were always super appreciative. I'm like, Man, there. These are all really nice people like they really like getting these emails from
6:53
doesn't happen most of the time.
6:55
Yeah, I had no idea. Although when I was leaving the army, I sent out dozens of applications. And I think I heard back from two. Yeah, so. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess that makes sense. But, uh, okay. Let's go. Your book is going to be titled, hire better people faster? Yes. Why is speed, an asset for businesses and hiring?
7:19
Again, a couple of reasons. But I already mentioned the one that job seekers important, right, like they need to move fast, especially if they're unemployed. Or they just, it's, you know, one of the things we see a lot we do a lot with frontline workers. One things we see a lot is when the environment is toxic, that starts to impact the family unit. They're bringing that frustration, that anger home, and they're taking on the family. And so speed to get them out of that toxic environments are really important to keep the family unit in good shape. So that's one side of it. The other side of it is as the employer, how much business are you losing? How many customers? are you disappointing? What are your margins look like, because of all the overtime you're paying, like, if you don't move quickly, your business may not have a long runway. And so it's really important that you're able to move fast as well. But not just for speed sake, actually be able to hire better people fast. And I think that's the qualification, because anybody can go out there and go hire someone this afternoon. But to hire the right people this afternoon, that's a much more difficult proposition. Right?
8:21
And so, further on that, right, if we're looking at finding the best people, how do you actually recommend promoting applications and stuff so that you can actually get the best applicants showing up faster.
8:32
So the one thing to remember is that recruiting is a marketing activity. Think about that you're putting the your message in front of the right people at the right time, like when they're ready to look for a new job. So if you think about recruiting as a marketing activity, you have to attract people, they have to like what they see. And if you want to get the right people to notice, you got to have that right message in front of the right people. And one of the things that we see happen a lot is companies copy other companies, like Oh, I got to put up a job ad. So let me just see what my competition is doing. They copy it. Well, guess what? You look no different than the competition. And if you look no different. Now, what are you competing on? You're competing on PE, you're competing on benefits. And if they're bigger than you, you're going to lose every single time. So what you have to do is you have to say what is it about our company that is attractive? What is it about coming to work and join our team? That's going to be really important to somebody and that's the message you need to put out there.
9:31
Right. And that was something I want to get into just how do you actually reflect the company culture? In the in the posting, right, a lot of job. A marketing position is going to generally look the same. Yeah, but the place that you're working is can be completely different. How do you actually get that across in a job posting where you have someone's short attention span to hook him in there? Well, we've
9:53
all heard the adage that people don't leave jobs, they leave people they leave managers, bosses, company cultures, that's what they leave And if we know that, and we're putting our ad out there to attract the right people, instead of leading with pay or leading with responsibilities or leading with experience or requirements to do the job, why don't we lead with what it's like to be a part of our team? One of the easiest ways to do that is get your team to tell your story. So most companies have have this idea of we need customer testimonials, we need customer reviews. And their plan is plastered all over their website. But very rarely do companies think we need employee testimonials. We need employee reviews. They don't think to ask for those. And I could speculate why. But I think it's just because it's hard to ask your people like, can you brag on us for a minute. But if you could get your people to tell the story, they're going to do such a better job of getting the right people attract? Because now it's not Oh, that's the owner, of course, he's gonna give me this lip service. It's like, here's a $15 an hour employee talking about how awesome it is, must be a cool place.
11:05
And do you just like sites like Glassdoor? Sure, right, and just get get people posted on there? I'm sure timing for when like asking the person who's just quit or you're firing, asking them for a review is probably the wrong time. But is there something within like a an employee's kind of timeline, like after the onboarding? I know,
11:27
every every industry is a little different on how long the honeymoon phase lasts. But at towards the end of the honeymoon phase is when you want to ask because they'll have enough information about working for you that it'll be a concrete will be a really solid testimonial. But it's not so far past the honeymoon or so early on that they're, you know, they're still they're not in that in love stage anymore, you know, that user would like to ask, but there are some companies that we've seen get employee testimonials, and they've asked people that have been there three, four or five years. And the things that they have to say, are just so much more compelling than the things that people have.
12:04
Yeah, I'm sure. That's probably like the opposite end of the spectrum is for a good testimonial. Like if someone's willing to commit that much of their lives, especially in a an economy where people are jumping every year, like two years is a long time and a company based off the people I've interviewed
12:22
someone somewhere probably around the 75 day mark would be good. You know, they'd been there long enough to get a feel for it, and it'll be genuine. That's the other thing is you want to make sure it's genuine. Like the best employee testimonials are the ones that like, hey, they're not perfect, but they're always working on it. Like who doesn't want to come work for a company that knows they're not perfect, but they're working to get better? Like that sounds cool. Versus they say they're perfect, but behind the scenes, they suck. Like you don't want that. Right. But that's what I think that perception a lot of people have of employers is they have this belief that they're great employer, but they're really not. Right.
12:56
So when it comes to actually building when your job postings, right, if I'm, if I'm talking to a plumber, right, or trying to get a plumber on board, he knows what his job is, like. So how much time do you spend trying to make the job requirements sounds sexy, when they know what they're looking for, versus actually spending in different portions. So you actually like allocate, you know, different sizes for a job posting? Yeah, recommendations of stuff
13:25
like I mean, let's just take an example of a service plumber, right? This is someone that's going to be in the customer's home or business, this is someone that's going to be engaging with an office manager or a homeowner, this is someone that's going to have to be able to make face to face conversation and make eye contact to be able to explain what's going on, clean up the job site like these are the things that this plumber is going to have to do. That's the stuff that most plumbers don't think about is thing that most employers don't think about, like what's the important stuff? What's creates that right experience for service plumber? And those are the things that should be in the ad. Yeah, do you need them to know how to do drains or, you know, install upgraded fixtures or remodel things? Like yeah, yeah, sure mentioned that stuff at a high level, but you don't have to get super detailed. Now, there's a compliance side to it. So you do have to make sure that you follow that, you know, if they have to be able to lift 50 pounds on assisted like you need to put that stuff in there. You don't want to get any work comp claims or anything like that. But at the end of the day, a plumber knows what they do. And if you really want to ensure you get a high quality plumber, take something that every plumber should be able to do and see how fast and how well they do it. So we have a client that what they do is they have it set up where there is a toilet, and they've got the tools right there and the wax ring and everything and they say replace the toilet, go it's all the instruction they give and they just sit back and watch. You can learn so much about the quality of a plumber based on how they replace a toy. Letter replaceable X ray or something like that. And so that's what I want you to focus on what are the things that are really important to providing the right level of customer service in the position?
15:12
Right? So, okay, let's imagine we've made the sexiest job posting, right? Everyone wants us. Step two, how do we filter out all the people who are applying just because we created a sexy job saying they're not actually qualified.
15:27
So we, we actually encourage everybody to be on a tool called an applicant tracking system, which is like a CRM, it helps you automate some of this, so that you don't have to sit there and come into your inbox on Monday morning and have 130 applications ago, what do I do now? And these applicant tracking systems can actually grade the application and then make decisions, did they pass? Did they score high enough or not? And one of the things we like to look at is knockout questions. So we create these questions that people have to answer as part of the application process. And what it does is allows us to determine very fast, Are they someone we want to spend more time with or not? And so let's let's talk about the service plumber, again, we could we could ask them a question or two about something very particular about the job that you know, someone with three to five years experience if that's what you need would know. So one of the questions I like to ask is, what's the hardest part of doing a being a service plumber? What's the hardest part of that? And everybody's gonna have their opinion. But usually, the thing that's the hardest is not the most obvious. Like we had a, we had a electrician elect electrical contractor one time, and the hardest thing in their mind was pulling wire through conduit. They're like, it sucks. It's not fun. It feels like a waste of time, kills your forearms, like that is one of the worst part is, is pulling wire. But they would get so many people that's like, oh, dealing with the customer. You're dealing with upset customers are like, no, that's just part of the job. That's not the worst part. Like, if we do a good job taking care of the customer, they're happy. That's the best part of the job. And so in their mind, it was pulling wire, and they could tell real quickly did these guys have experience or not?
17:11
Right? Yeah, that makes sense. So going deeper on the applicant tracking systems, a lot of applicants have used that as a reason for not getting, you know, being ghosted and not sure. Answer advancing, right, because you're in a way, it seems like you're writing the application versus the person. So is there a way to ensure like, your system is set up so that you're actually kind of giving benefit of the doubt to the person so that you're, you're looking at their application for more than just like that one question you might be pulling out, but sort of, not necessarily just buzzwords, I guess you're looking for keywords you're looking for. But are there other kinds of tricks in that to make sure you're giving full?
17:53
Well, one of the things I have to say is like a disclaimer on applicant tracking system, if you're going to let the system make decisions about an application for you. And you turn on what what everybody calls us a little different, but the auto decline, right? Like if you automatically decline applications, you should also have the automation setup that sends an email or a text message to somebody says, Hey, we got your application, you're not a fit, better luck next time, right? Like that message. And what happens is a lot of people will get the application track the applicant tracking system set up enough to reject the application, but they don't do the part where they person. And when I ask why. It's like, well, I want to hurt their feelings. Like, do you have any idea how freeing it is to know that I'm not in the running anymore, and I can move on? Like, free them up for that. So scoring the questions is one part of it. You know, another thing that I see a lot happen is resumes. I'm going to digress into resumes a second. See a lot of people require resumes. And if anybody's curious on my little rant, I got a 12 minute rant on YouTube about resumes. Because here's the thing, there are three types of resumes out there. There's those written by a professional resume writer, there are websites you can go to for 300 bucks, they will embellish the heck out of your resume, make you sound awesome and keyword optimize it and do all that. Well, you can't trust that it's not real. Then there's the resumes written by people that don't know how to write resumes on about you, Chris, but when I was in school and teach me how to write a resume, and so yeah, there's some stuff on LinkedIn and some stuff on indeed and these websites that kind of talk about how to write a resume, but it's all old. They don't teach how to write resume and even if they did, how many of us are creative enough to really wordsmith it well and keyword optimize it like we can't do it, so you can't trust that resume. And then the third type of resume which is fairly recent, and this is probably my video is the resume written by AI. Jobs you seekers can now go to chat GPT and say here's the link to the job I want to apply for. Write me a resume. Now that one will most likely get through Through the ATS, get through the screening, because it's going to be spot on not the first person, it's gonna be perfect for that. But you can't trust that right? So what I would recommend everybody do is stop asking for resumes. Stop asking for him. I mean, sure, if you want to see them and someone's got them great, but don't require them. Don't keyword search them. Now, there are a lot of HR people going, oh, you can't do that. How often? Are you actually using that information? You're not You're looking at the questions. you're researching them on LinkedIn, you're following up on social media, like you're doing all of those things anyways. So why waste your time on the resume?
20:38
Right, well, most of the stuff that they would be pulling out are things easily available on LinkedIn. Yeah, right. And so I mean, I suppose the resumes, but when my hiring process, I don't think I've ever looked at one, I've looked at portfolios, those are different. And so I took I realized, Hey, I like portfolios, because they get to see their work. And so I just made a page on notion. That is just about me. And I little gallery view, anytime I get a testimonial, I add it there. Anytime I get a great result, I add it there. And so now I have a page, someone could just go and learn all about me. They could see all the results. And I'm not tailoring it to a job. I'm just got it live. Yeah, go look at it. And if more applicants said that I would have for as a marketing looking for marketing hires, I would absolutely. But yeah, that's not the case. So okay, so we know how to build or we're building job applications and stuff, how it's obviously important to include what you don't want, right from from a hire. How do you go about including that in a way that it is front of mind, like people actually can disqualify themselves before even
21:46
we actually it's actually something is one of the four sections that we teach in any effective job ad is the what you don't want people like, Well, how do I do that? Literally, this is the headline for that section, what we're not looking for what we don't want in a future employee, like just put it out there, because not only is it a pattern interrupt, it's going to catch people off guard. They're like, well, what is this, but it's also you're not pulling any punches, they're going to know exactly what it is you don't want and be really clear to. You know, a lot of times the things that we don't want are more behavioral than they are skill based. They're more anti cultural, to our culture than they are skill based. So focus on those things. You know, one of the things we hear a lot in the trades is I just wish people would show up on time. Yeah, I get it. So here's what you don't want. Don't want someone that thinks seven o'clock is a wreck, you know, a recommended start time like it is the start time, you know, early is on time on time is late, like that mentality, like just be really clear about it. And I think that if more companies did that, it would help people disqualify himself much faster.
22:54
So we started talking in the pre interview, we kind of went down a rabbit hole. And I want to bring that conversation back for this podcast, because I think it was valuable. Which is the question how our manual labor industry is hurting themselves by competing for the dollar and differentiated.
23:12
So I mean, how much time do we have? So many ways we could take that? You know, there's a couple of things that come right to the top of my mind. So number one is, when we compete on dollars, like we pay more than someone else, all we're saying is, that's where our value lies. That's that's the message we're putting out there is the only reason you're going to want to come work for my company is because I pay better not because I have better leaders or a better training program or invest in you, or I've got a career path for you, or a great apprenticeship program. Not because of that, but just because I'm going to pay more. But the problem with that from the employers perspective is you pay more guess what the people that are attracted to that, or just looking for the next place where they can get paid more. So you're gonna lose them to the guy that's willing to out pay what you're paying. So that's one problem with with that. I think the other problem with going out there and just attracting with the dollars is that you forget what the good people are really looking for. So about 70% of the job market right now, people that are employed. That's one thing people always ask people like, we're all the good people. They're like they're working for someone else. Okay, great. We know they're working for someone else. And we know that the reason they would leave is because they want a better boss already discussed. And it's not they don't want a different job. They want a better boss. So if we know that 70% of the people in the workforce are looking to leave, and the reason they're looking to leave is they want a better boss. You're not going to attract the good people with money. The good people are going to be like, well if all they've got is money, I'm not interested. I'm looking for a better culture career path. A place is going to train me Invest in me. Let me take care of my family. those things. But if they can't differentiate on that, I'm not going to pay attention. So what you end up finding is these companies that compete on pay, it's just, it's just this never ending cycle. I mean, it's a race to the bottom, because all that does is kill your profitability.
25:15
Something else that I've noticed that I would love to actually go deeper on, is, along with pay, it's almost this, like this false inflating of, of your worth based on the title. Right, so startups get tons of funding, so they can throw more money at people early. So they hire someone who probably isn't ready to be a CMO. But they got the title and they're making, you know, 150 is their first day out of college. And now, when they go look anywhere else for a job that's gonna pay them what the actual market rate is, for their experience level. They're not finding it. And they're complaining about the market. And I think, how would I know you can use titles, right, as a way to attract people? But I guess, how do you kind of walk that balance of making sure you're offering like the right title, good title with the right compensation package? Yeah.
26:08
So the first thing that comes to mind, so I think about the companies that are going to be excited to implement our system and follow our program. When you focus on recruiting, because of titles, what you're really doing is playing to ego. That's all that is, you're playing to ego. And if you want to create a leadership team, or a company full of narcissists, by all means, go do that. But what I found is that's typically not very healthy, and it's not going to help you grow. So if there are people out there that need to be enticed by title, like when we look at sales people, for example, they need to be enticed by money. Like that's what motivates them. Right? When you look at senior leaders in an organization, they need the cool title, nobody wants to be called a director, when they can be called a senior VP, right, they get the leadership level, then those are your superstars. But you know, where this really hurts companies, is when they take that middle management group. And they take someone like we see this happen a lot in construction, they take someone who's really good with their hands, and they make them a foreman, or supervisor, superintendent. And then what happens is they pay that person that same way, and that person's like, they're not cutting it, they're not really pulling it off. But when they go to look for work, they put foreman or superintendent on their resume. And those are the jobs they're looking for. And so they go take the next job, he doesn't cut it there, and he goes, takes the next job and doesn't cut it there. And what we've done is we've created this industry of people who are not qualified to sit in those seats, because we used title to lure them in and maybe even retain them, but it's not going to work. It just hurts the entire industry. When we do that. Now, that said, one company is not going to solve it. But if you can get with your peers and be like, hey, we need to stop doing this stuff. Maybe you could actually make some change in that space.
28:03
Yeah, and I think that would. So I mean, I had interviewed, someone who had four years of experience in the field, like 26 years old, was had been a CMO. And when I'd asked for results, like in the interview, it couldn't point to a single thing that they had done, like no results. I'm like, that's raising some flags for me. And it's just like, see, like, any cmo should be able to at least get one right.
28:27
Like you've been around long enough, like just right. In my eyes. Yeah. It's, it's, um, you know, one of the things that, I believe is that past performance is not an indicator of future success. Which is actually contrary to what a lot of thought leaders in this space teach, like, really focus on their past performance. But you don't know how toxic of a culture they were in, maybe they couldn't perform well. You don't know how relaxed that company was when it came to metrics. Like maybe they didn't have metrics. Maybe they said, Hey, as a CMO, if you show up, and you run your team meetings, and your people like you, you're doing a good job, like maybe that's me, that was the bar. And so a lot of times when you talk to people about Tell me about a time when you really did something phenomenal. It almost helps to walk people through it, what that process was, what they did, or what were some options. And if they're clueless to it, I mean, that's probably a huge red flag that they got promoted and shouldn't have been.
29:33
Right? Yeah, I was coupled with a test. So like, if someone was advancing, we, you know, like, yeah, swapping out a toilet. Hey, go create this piece of content, right? We're not gonna publish it anywhere. We're gonna pay you for it. It's just, it's gonna live on a Google Drive until Google servers finally like keel over. They never happen. But like, but that was, I mean, if they got through to that point, and they then couldn't do anything. It's like This is now evident. But the looking at past performance as not being indicative of future success, I found something the army does really well. And I don't know if the by the other branches, but they every review, you get looks at performance and potential as two completely separate sections of your review. And so one is just a What did you do? Did you do all the right things for this job? And then the next one is, are you ready to take on more responsibility? And I find and so I've always taken my reviews like with that, like, let's talk about everything you did over the past now. Now, are you ready to take on more? Can we start looking at increasing your pay some more responsibility? And that's helped me, I think extensively and just finding the rounds to advance. But, uh, yeah, I got one last question for you. Before we go into our our big three here. What are some of the biggest steps for employee retention that you would recommend a company takes today.
30:59
So the first thing is, remember that onboarding is not an event. It's a process. So even if you don't have new people showing up, you can still onboard your existing team. Agree onboard them reengage them in that process. Too often, I see, especially in smaller companies, I guess big companies do this, too. It's baptism by fire, right? Like when you show up, it's like, here's the work. Good luck. By the way, there's a training server over there if you need help call Johnny. Right, that's onboarding. And I think when people know that you don't care enough about their future, or you don't care enough about their success, they're going to have in the back of their mind, maybe I need to find a different place to work. So if you really want to retain people, let them know you're willing to go out of your way to invest in them, take care of them, to make sure they get what they want out of their career and their life. And so onboarding, is not the event. It's not the I nine and the W four and systems logins and all that stuff. It's how do you get this sense of belonging on our team? How do you get this sense of purpose so that you feel like you're getting what you want out of your career, you're getting what you want out of your personal life, most people do not work for the sake of work. Most people work because they want to go on vacation, or they want to take care of their family or they want to buy a bigger house. That's why people were so know what it is that's driving them to show up every single day and work hard for you, and then spend time on those things.
32:39
Awesome. All right. Let's get into our big three. So I'm going to tailor this question. It's what book do you think everyone should read, but you can name your own? Because
32:51
I want to find out. So, the number one challenge I see companies have when recruiting is the interview. It's the biggest challenge they have. Nobody likes to be interviewed, nobody likes to interview. Nobody likes to follow a process. Everybody wants to just hire people that they like. And the problem is in the interview, everybody puts their best foot forward. It's a first impression. And being able to negotiate or have a conversation with someone during the interview that's really meaningful, open and honest, is really critical. And so my favorite book right now is Chris Voss never split the difference. It's an amazing book. And it's all about negotiation. And negotiation doesn't just mean you're paying your benefits. Negotiation means hey, I want someone to answer my question, honestly, how do I get them to do that?
33:49
So that's the book I'd recommend. Yeah, that was a good one. What is next for you professionally?
33:56
So I've got the book coming out. Like that's the next big thing for me. But professionally, you're one of the things that I look at is, as much as we're doing our training and our education, I really want to be able to get this message in front of more people. So one of the things that we're talking about doing right now is how do we start training more trainers? And that's something that I thought about for years. But now we're finally at a point where how do we create a training program so we can create more trainers out there to get this message in front of the entrepreneurs that need it?
34:30
And then finally, where can people find you core matters.com?
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Or if you want to search for Ryan, England on LinkedIn, I'm there as well.
34:40
Awesome. Ryan, thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership visit leading for effect.com As always, deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai