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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of youth sports parenting in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
Before we start this episode with Pat Okama.
Pat has accepted and is now the technical director
at PA Classics over the Boys and Girls platforms.
If the name PA.
Classics rings a bell. it's the club that produced Christian Pulisic.
Let's get into it
Ready?
Ready?
Yes.
Audio recording.
Video.
Yes.
Matt.
Ready?
Okay.
Yes.
Sounds amazing.
Okay.
Welcome back to Chasing
the Game everybody.
Um. Matt and I are continuing our mission
to untangle the maze of US Youth Soccer.
Maybe if I'll say it enough times gonna
get easier to say this youth soccer thing.
Anyway. uh. we're continuing to amaze
each other. not just by our extreme
professionalism. good looks. but at
the level of guests we're bringing
on. you know. who's the doubter now?
Right.
And I'm gonna say. as I always say.
wow. we had an amazing conversation.
Pat Oma. someone who's been around the
game long enough to see how it changed.
He brings thoughtful. big.
big picture perspective.
I love that.
Pat has been a part of this journey as
a player college coach. professional
academy coach and academy director at
DC United Pat absorbed the evolution. from the inside
What I love about this
conversation is that it's not
just about the technical details.
This one is about culture.
values. and how soccer fits into
the American support landscape.
Matt: Yeah. for me. I mean. Pat's
perspective is just so valuable because of
his approach to the toughest challenges.
How he. how he's broken down
those barriers and how he
frames those experiences.
When. um. when we come across
people like Pat in the heart of the
US youth ecosystem. um. it gives
me hope that. uh. we're onto to
solutions and. uh. to helping improve
the system each and every way.
Each and every way we can.
Um. you know. he sees the game as a system
where the challenges are often structural.
but also where the opportunities lie.
We wanted to bring him on to reflect
on the progress. the obstacles.
and the lessons from this journey.
And like our other interviews
this season. this is a two-parter.
Part one sets the stage
and part two looks forward.
Liron: Yeah.
So let's get into it.
Matt.
Uh. here's part one with Pat.
Pat Ockama. welcome to Chasing the Game.
most recently Pat was the
academy director at DC United.
he has experienced with the New
England Revolution and an assistant
coach at Cornell University and
the head coach at Ithaca College.
We love your background. how robust it
is and truly. one of the best thinkers in
this space and generally. in any space.
So we're thrilled to have you.
Pat: I appreciate it guys.
Thanks for having me on.
Liron: Yeah.
It's
dangerous to have a thinker. Matt.
Matt: it. it. it is dangerous. but. but
not. in not
Liron: how much l little
thinking is happening here. that.
Matt: not. not in this space though.
pat. you know. I've had the pleasure of
getting to know you over. over some time.
You have truly made removing
barriers. a central part of your work.
whether that's cost. geography.
access to the first team.
But let's just start with your story.
I know you grew up in Ithaca. New York.
Tell us a little bit about
that multi-sport athlete.
how did you get to this place today?
Pat: Yeah.
grew up in Ithaca. grew playing
soccer as the first sport.
Hockey was the second sport.
'cause if you wanna survive the
winters. that's what you need to do.
But. certainly stuck with soccer through
high school. college. and then. little
taste of the professional life before I
ended up getting into coaching and then.
this has provided such a different way
to experience the game and to really
relearn the game over and over again.
So it's been a fantastic experience to see
the game from youth clubs to colleges. to.
certainly to professional clubs as well.
Liron: Was.
was it a big sport where you grew up?
Pat: It was surprisingly big.
it's a small city. but it's very
international and very diverse
because Cornell and Ithaca brings
families from all over the world.
So. on the right year you have. a
couple kids coming from Spain. a couple
kids coming from South America. and we
can put together a pretty good team.
So I grew up with some really good
players and. certainly the guys
kind of a year or two ahead of me
were. really solid players and.
we had a little group that we'd go
play pickup pretty much every day.
Liron: That's why I'm curious
because. I grew up in a country
and an environment where it's
pretty much the mainstream sport.
you couldn't help but play.
It doesn't matter if you were
good or bad. it wasn't judged
like that. everybody played.
But for you to get to kind of start
climbing your way up through where you
lived. were there were mentors or how
do you kind of. was it from your family?
Where does it all start?
Pat: Also with my family. my father
played. he came from Guyana when he
was 18. so he moved to this country.
moved to New York City and then.
eventually made. his way to Ithaca.
So he played. I've two older brothers.
So it was. uh. just kind of
in the family at that point.
Liron: so you're first generation.
I got it.
So. he was supportive of your
journey and that. and at that
time. I don't know how it was then.
I mean. we're talking about travel and
the whole thing and three hours to go to
games. or was it still same. just. just
Pat: Yeah. it was. it was
all over the place for sure.
We. you know. we were all over central
New York and. you know. Pennsylvania
up towards Buffalo. Rochester. there
everywhere we went. we were driving.
you know. at least an hour or two.
Liron: When you look at that experience
that you've had and where you are today.
is. did you take. are you still. you
see yourself as directly influenced by
that kind of Ithaca small town soccer
world and the people you grew up with.
When. when you make decisions today or
the positions that. that you've reached.
Pat: for sure.
I think. it's. it's funny 'cause
the kids will ask me. oh. coach.
what. what academy did you play for?
And fellas this.
This didn't. this didn't exist.
When you know. you. you guys don't
realize how. how lucky you are to
have this infrastructure built for
you when you. when you're coming
through. because it didn't exist.
We. we had to go to Syracuse.
We had to go to Rochester and try
to. try to find a team to. you
know. because you. you could outgrow
a. a smaller town like Ithaca.
So you gotta kind of find the.
the better talent and the better
game to really test yourself.
Matt: I I just want to go back a second.
Um. when Pat talked about players that
inspired him that are one or two years
older in Ithaca. he did not mention
players 10 years older at Ithaca College
like myself. who were very uninspiring
to Pat as a youth who'd come watch.
Myself and my teammates
play at Ithaca College.
So Pat. I appreciate the non shoutout.
Pat: I was getting
Matt: I. I won't. I. I
won't. I won't forget that.
Pat: podcast.
I thought we had a long
time.
I was
Matt: how many compliments
Liron: that we're gonna need to do.
pat. to get through this Uh.
oh. this podcast tonight?
Oh my God.
Pat: Nah. I didn't wanna peak too early.
I was. I was
Matt: I. I appreciate it.
It's a story of my life.
Um. pat. let's.
um. Hey.
Liron: Matt. have you been working out?
Matt: Matt.
Liron: You look good.
Matt: pat. let's. let's move into some
of some of the work that you've done.
at. at both professional academies
as far as breaking down barriers.
So everybody talks about pay to play in
this country. and unfortunately. unless
you're playing for an MLS Academy or a
USL Professional Academy. it. everyone
is paying to play and it's just a.
a reality and a part of our system.
Aside from that.
I'd love for you to talk a little
bit around other barriers that you've
experienced and how you've approached them
as an academy director and as a coach.
Pat: Yeah.
I think. the first obvious
one is. is geography.
Is how. how do we get the best
players into our system. from a.
from a geographical standpoint.
that could come in the.
In the form of a residency program
like we built in New England or a
transportation program like we built in
DC where we had four 15 passenger vans
from four different locations driving
into training. run training. and then
then driving 'em back out to. to a couple
different pickup and drop off locations.
that's the first thing.
And it. and that's one that looks
really different depending on what
environment you're working in and what
the challenges and the resources are.
I've. I've lived in New York where
you guys are now. which is really
different than being up in New
England. which is very different than
being down in DC Where here you have
two beltways in two major cities.
So there's. everyone's puzzle
looks a little bit different.
And that's coming from not just the
clubs that I've worked at. but the
other directors around the. the country.
They have to find how to solve
their puzzle . From the challenges
and the resources that they have.
Um. once you get past that and you
start to. you have all the talent and
you want to start them getting to get
more access to the first team or to
the second team trained during the
day. you're talking about building
residency programs. education programs.
meals. an umbrella. which is really.
really important in terms of attracting
and developing the best talent.
expectations from the first team
and the general managers and sport
directors. that those are there as well.
Where we're spending that
type of money on these kids.
we're expecting a few
pros outta that group.
So. it is a blessing to have
ownership that will invest
in. some of those programs.
And then. they're certainly expecting ROI.
Liron: But. so here's again. this is
unique to the United States. right?
So you have a metropolis area
where you have probably one or two
teams. two teams if you're lucky.
Mostly one that covers an
enormous amount of geography.
So now we're not talking about
adults here. we're talking about
kids and we had a issue with that
when La Vivo was at Red Bulls. just
getting to the Red Bulls facility.
Now you're looking at quality
of life for the kid itself.
So where does that balance come through
as far as an academy where you go. you
know what. kid. you might be okay here.
but I gotta tell you. we can't do this
to you because you're two hours away.
is there a balance
where you consider that?
Pat: that's the first thing that has
to be taken into consideration is.
is this the right move for the kid?
And he might be good enough and
he might. be a leader on this team
right away. but we have to take into
consideration the family. the kid. is
he ready. mature enough. and willing
to make a move like this where he's
moving into a residential program.
that's not something we take very lightly.
I feel fortunate I haven't dealt with
that. and I kinda say fortunately because
that's. a completely different animal.
in New England it was generally kids
that were from a couple hours away.
maybe in Connecticut or New Hampshire.
where it didn't make logistical st
sense to go back and forth. but their
families are still in range and they
can go home for a night if they need to.
in DC the talent is so saturated
here that we didn't really need
much of a residential program.
probably helpful. but really what was
more important was the transportation.
Liron: and and what about
within the team itself?
Like financial discrepancy
within families?
'cause again. America is so complex
and wide. you don't have neighborhood
teams here. let's say. I dunno.
DC United or whatever team we're
talking about. it covers enormous
gamut of kids and families.
Pat: Mm-hmm.
Liron: some families can afford
to do extra. some cannot.
I mean. how does. the
academy balance that as
Matt: LLL Liron. you. when you say extra.
you're talking about private sessions?
Every. everything outside of
what DC United in this case
or The revs. or is providing
Liron: off of work.
Going to parents attending practice.
I mean. there's so many elements that
Financial Liberty gives you where
if you're doing nine to five or even
more than that. you just cannot do it.
So at what point does the Academy step
in is there a responsibility on your end
Pat: Yeah. I mean. when we built the
transportation program at DC it was
to remove that barrier completely.
the club was picking up the tab for it.
All you gotta do is get your kids to
this pickup and drop off point. no matter
what your financial situation might be.
So we tried to just remove it completely.
And if we select you for the team.
can you get to this pickup spot?
Do we need to adjust it a little bit?
And we do what we can.
it's difficult to balance everything.
but it's certainly something that we
need to take the time to understand the
geography. the socioeconomic resources
and challenges that each family has. as
we build these programs and they have
to be adaptable and they have to be.
flexible enough to try to
accommodate. as many people as we can.
Matt: And. and it sounds
simple and straightforward.
You have four vans. 15 kids run it
twice a like. I I would imagine it's
not for. for a whole lot of reasons.
and just as a residency program.
on the surface sounds like. okay.
well yeah. we bring school to
them. they come stay with us.
But you know. you went through
that and trying to build in
helping build it in New England.
I'd love to hear what some of your
learnings were from that experience
and just spending that much more time
with the kids off the pitch and how
that's kind of helped you progress as
a. as a coach and academy director.
Pat: Yeah. it was a. it was
a great experience too. and
this was in New England when
they had just. new facilities.
Second team is online.
And they purchase a house that is
literally on the access road that.
we're now living with. with four to six
kids. depending on the. on the time.
And it was. the first thing we did.
just like all of these programs. is to
connect with the family and understand
what their constraints. what their
resources are. know the kids. know
what. what they need. what makes them
tick. but where they have trouble.
that's first and foremost.
'cause at the end of the day. yeah.
they're gonna be training. they're gonna
have a high level soccer experience.
and we need to also fill the rest of the
day with a proper education experience.
nutrition. making sure that they're
having some. some social time and. and
have that as a part of their life as
well because we. we just removed them.
Removed them from their
regular social scene.
So there's a lot that goes into
it. on the front end. and then
certainly towards managing it.
one of the more difficult situations
I remember was. We sent all the
kids home except one. because
one had a second team contract.
And that is where. that's where
all this work benefited us from
having known the kid social kid.
And so we know this so when the
other kids leave. you guys can
go home. but you gotta stay.
he's not liking it.
'cause he's used to being able to talk
with his boys and if they're playing
video games or playing soccer. tennis.
And that's where we had to be really
creative and really be knowledgeable
about what the needs of the kid kid were.
Matt: Yeah.
And I love. I mean. something about
your background. which like. I hope
everybody understands how it. it comes
through in your work. but I mean.
your dad is a school principal and.
Pat: he was. he's retired
Matt: yeah.
He's re Yeah. but I mean. so education.
the. all of it. the whole picture
to you is really. really important.
And that may be unique right in. in this
world at the professional academy level.
Hopefully it's not.
but I'm. I'm pretty certain that
most aren't as quite as thoughtful
and have the same kind of
balanced approach to it as you do.
And. um. you know. I just think about
the. the organizations where you've had a
chance to work about how lucky and. and.
It was just fortunate these kids are
to have been around and been in an
environment where. yeah. like you
guys are trying to create incredible
players and incredible people.
Pat: I appreciate that.
I won't sell the other. there's.
there's some good directors out
Matt: Yeah. I'm sure.
I'm sure.
Pat: I think for me it was. it
was beneficial to. I'm the only
one in my family with. without an
education degree. and so when you
have access to people who are.
There's nothing they haven't seen.
I'm not coming home and. oh.
this happened at training today.
Yeah. yeah. yeah.
Have you asked the kid this?
Have you checked in on this?
Like they. they know. and so we're.
coaches is doing the best we can. but
these are. these are professionals and
that they're educators and they understand
really the nuances of. of what goes into
developing a young man take soccer aside.
Matt: Yeah.
Liron: obviously we're parents. right?
our kids play good
teams. both of our kids.
And. but you always have that
dilemma of. school versus.
As they grow older school versus team
time or practice For me. one of the
complaints that I have. and this is what
I'd love to hear your thought about.
was that the team is not usually. are
not transparent about that balance.
It's almost like the team would be like.
well. that's not our responsibility.
And in a way. let's say if. Lavie
has extra homework one day. we
always are in this kind of balance.
Well. if you're not gonna go to practice
because you have extra homework. you
might not be rostered on the game.
Which is different than saying he didn't
train well. he trained really well.
but might have missed a day or two.
Won be. but they have a philosophy.
If you miss a day. you're not
gonna. you're not gonna be
able to play in a kid's mind.
That's a very. very
difficult. situation to be.
And on the team wise. we've never heard
clear communications through the years of
all that I've been. had my kid in soccer.
I'm curious to hear what
your thoughts about that.
Pat: My thoughts are. are trying to create
a holistic environment where I'm not
trying to separate the two. whether it's.
School or soccer.
For me. it's a responsibility
and it's a growing up.
And if a first team coach sends you
home with video that he wants you to
watch a little bit. that's something
you have to. that's your homework.
So for me. when I see school like
this is. this is part of the whole
package and. part of the challenge is
to. or part of the work really is to
have those conversations beforehand.
these are the expectations and this
is what your life looks like now.
And think about this and decide as a
family if this is something that you
can sign on to because you will be held
accountable to how you're doing in school.
we're trying to develop professional
soccer players. but professionals
who. when their soccer career is
over. and hopefully it's after a
long and fruitful career. that they
will have the skills to be successful
in whatever their next endeavor is.
For example.
we are. having those conversations
that this is what life is like.
we would have come like. Hey.
come spend a night in the house.
Come spend a couple days. understand
what the rhythm is because
this is what it will be like.
it's not hanging out and
playing video games all day.
there's a rhythm to this day.
and in that particular situation. since
I'm working for the club and. there's
a million things going on that's a
schedule that needed to be followed and
to. respect everyone's space and time.
Liron: there a metric for
success in a way because.
if somebody kind of falls through
the program. where do they stand?
Or how does that work and
how do you handle that?
Pat: That's a good question.
I never had a situation
where I would say a kid.
Liron: that's why you come here.... Pat
was just complimenting me
on asking him a question.
He is never been asked
Matt: before.
Do you wanna. can. do you
remember
it?
you ask
Liron: you.
Take my thunder
Matt: can you ask it again and
we'll edit the. the other part out?
Liron: No. keep. keep. keep. keep going.
Pat. about. basically it's this
idea of what happens when. what
are your metrics for success?
Like. how. what happens when.
when it doesn't work out?
happens then?
Pat: I. I would say. luckily.
although I. I don't wanna use the
word luck. because we developed
systems where the kid was successful.
Not all of them were top level pros.
but kids got through high school
and had a chance to. to be. training
and work on their way in with the.
with the second team for sure.
the metric for success at that point.
when you have ownership. spending
quite a bit of money on whether
it's residency or transportation
or education. is you're gonna need
to produce a professional player.
'cause at the end of the day. this
is. an investment that they're making
in the academy and the first team
coach and the sporting director and
the ownership are expecting that.
Matt: Pat. I'm curious. you. speaking
of Germany. you've gone through a
pretty intricate coaching. series
of licenses in France. right?
Or a French program.
I'm curious. you know. specifically
like how some of that has come through
in your work. running an academy
and coaching. and how does that
balance some of the stuff that is
more traditional for the US licenses?
Pat: Yeah. it's a. it's a good question.
It's probably one of the. I mean.
it was probably the most difficult
coaching and academically challenging.
thing I've done was. was to be on
that course. to put context to it
when I got the job in New England.
my boss at the time said. oh no.
you're not coming to New England.
You're getting on a plane to France.
So I was. I was very. very green.
in Claire Fontine. where the French
national teams train. working on. a
license called the EFCL. the Elite
Formation Coaching License. which is a
program through the MLS and they can send
one player from every club into this.
Uh. they're on their sixth
generation of the course right now.
I graduated in the third. I haven't been
to grad school. but from everything I hear
about it. it sounds exactly like that.
And
Liron: you you do have
a degree in education.
You see that?
Wait.
Pat: but. no. fantastic group of guys.
everyone just kind of made their way
up the ladder. all around the league
and. you're up till two. three in the
morning working on projects and we're.
in France. we're meeting in US cities.
We go back over to cla
Fontine for the final.
We. it was such a good experience to.
A. that's my first year
and a half in the league.
So I'm learning very. I'm drinking
from the fire hose and learning
a lot really. really quickly.
and then b. to have the opportunity
to see not only the US landscape.
but what's happening in France.
We did. I did a club visit in Malaga.
so I'm seeing a few different
countries and how development
works. how the scouting systems
work. what they're looking for.
And it was. certain guys. some guys
went to see Athletico Madrid and
I'm at Malaga. like. and everyone's
coming together and talking about it.
And it was such a unique experience
to be able to share that knowledge
and that experience with those guys.
Liron: How does the US
landscape look like from there?
Pat: it was really interesting really
interesting 'cause certain guys went to.
athletical Madrid. which is a massive
club and one of the best in the world.
And then.
You kind of gotta ask yourself.
okay. but what can I take from
there and bring it back here?
And there might be certain things. but
there might be a lot that you can't.
I was particularly happy with
my trip to Malaga because it's a
relatively small city. and it's a
relatively small operation in the
academy. but it's super passionate.
they're renting out city fields.
they're training on half a pitch.
And they don't have all
the bells and whistles.
There are certain MLS academies
that have more. but they're
churning out professional players.
that's a club that's doing
it very. very consistently.
And so you start to get a little
bit more holistic picture of
what development can look like.
Matt: So. so what is happening there?
That may not be happening
here at the same level.
Yeah.
And. and how much of it truly is talent
versus development versus coaching?
Pat: the answer I'm gonna throw at you
is culture. because it's a small city.
every kid in there has an uncle
or a neighbor or a friend's
father who played for Malaga.
They all have a very clear vision
of I can make it there 'cause I
know someone who's made it there.
it's so tied into the community
that it's not this far off distant
thing is a very real and tangible
objective for those kids to achieve.
Liron: But the standards of
success are incredibly high.
Pat: Of course.
Liron: so how do you. mean. the
game is always developing. right?
So how do you maintain that and continue
to generate talent in such numbers?
it's things that just.
it's hard to imagine.
Pat: Yeah.
the cream rises to the top right.
Those kids are competing as hard as
they possibly can day in and day out.
they're recruiting around Spain.
but most of those kids are local.
they know that that's a pathway through.
it's not an easy path for sure.
But. but kids are gonna become
professionals through that academy.
Liron: Do you think they're hungrier
than the average American kid
who went through your systems?
Pat: I think the culture is so strong
and. and you can see it at some of
the events we go to. to GA Cup at
the younger ages. we're. we're. we're
right there and. and often winning.
And at the older ages. what. what I
think happens is all those years and
years of. of that culture. of watching
the game. of being around the game at a
high level kind of take over and you see
us. a little behind at the older ages.
Matt: You. you. just talked about.
This expectation and culture.
both at professional academies
here and then overseas.
and I would say even. especially
at overseas. at some of
the club. like at Malaga.
Talk a little bit about college
here and prep schools here.
we've. we've heard. I'm sure this has been
going on for a long time. but for some
reason I've heard it a little bit more
around kids who. go all the way through
a professional academy or get through U
16 and they may opt. they may opt to go
to a prep school because it's a direct
route to an Ivy League school or a top
a CC school academically. athletically.
or. or football wise. soccer wise.
How much of a difference do you think
that makes ultimately on those alter age
groups where kids here are saying college
is still. I want to be a pro. but I
know college is right there for me also.
Pat: Yeah.
I think it's a huge factor. and especially
from working in the two regions that
I've worked in for. for professional
academies in New England and. and in DC
they're. it's a big prep school culture.
and we've. I've seen kids walk away from
this pathway to go on onto this pathway
to. as you said. to set themselves
up for going to an Ivy League school.
there was a. I'll always remember this
conversation. but there was a while
back. a kid who was a. he was gonna be
a national team player. that US scouts
were asking me every day about him.
And he decides to go to a prep school.
And. he and his family
really valued education and.
I remember kind of struggling with it
and talking to my boss at the time.
like. I. we can't lose this kid.
This kid's. kid's gonna be a pro.
And he actually was. it told me. and I
always remember this. whatever decision
he makes is the right decision for him.
and it's the right decision for us too.
'cause what we don't want is to spend
another 30. $40.000 on this kid over
the next few years and then find out
he's not. he's not really into it.
We'd rather know now.
And so. as difficult as that was
to watch a kid who had that type of
talent go. he'll. be doing just fine.
he's at a very good school right now.
He will have a very good career.
and those are choices that are
sometimes difficult to swallow.
But at the end of the day. we need to
focus our attention and our resources
on the kids that really wanna make
this professional dream a reality.
Matt: great.
Liron: kids
in Malaga that you've discussed
before. I mean. their path
is go pro or go home. right?
There is no.
So that's pretty much an all in
kind of. and what Matt is describing
Pat: Yep.
Liron: is. I mean. this is.
again. I don't know if I. my son
will ever reach that level. but
being at
N-Y-C-F-C and. and you see them grow.
but it. the pro is nice for the kids.
but the parents. I. most of the parents
don't think that most of the parents.
it is about an entry to. to what would
hopefully be a. a college career.
Pat: Yeah.
There. there are a lot of parents.
As the kids get older. the. the
kids start to think that too.
Oh. I can. this'll. this'll
get me into. into that
school.
Liron: You. you've seen that so
you've Mm. What age do does that
happen when that kind of switch from.
Pat: when the colleges start reaching
out and start getting in their ear.
and you can come here and you can
get this. this degree. and. you know.
Players. you know. people with this
degree are. are making X amount when
they. when they graduate college.
And that. that sounds like a pretty good
life for. for the family and the parents.
And if you've. especially. you
know. the kids who've grown up in
an environment like that where the
families are successful. like. oh.
right. this is a nice life and I can
recreate that and. and live that.
it's unfortunate to lose. to
lose talent to that for sure.
and we have a massive country and a lot
of. a lot of areas where we. we still
should be able to get their enough kids
who. this is their dream and this is the.
their one thing and. and be successful
and we can go back and forth on. on that.
But I. what I would say is we. we have
to focus our attention on. on those kids.
Matt: we've talked a little bit about.
Communications with
kids and with parents. and with families.
talk to us a little bit about. it's
something as parents and. and. and
being involved with clubs where it.
it's always a discussion. meaning
amongst parents. sometimes parents
with coaches. sometimes parents
with academy directors as an academy
director. and then also as a coach.
So prior to you being an academy director.
what do those relationships look like?
Like what is. what is okay
as far as communications?
What do you want to hear?
What do you want. what
do you not want to hear?
how do you establish that?
I think the. the baseline and then
ultimately. like how do you even
manage it as an academy director
with other coaches and. and families.
Pat: Yeah.
it's one of those things where you wanna
be way ahead of that conversation and
set the expectations and the guidelines
clearly from the get go. before the kid
is even stepped foot in the academy.
it's really important to. and
I think every academy director
across the board has some sort of
meeting with all the parents so that
there's some sort of. understanding
of what the expectations are.
I would say a couple things.
One. one. the. it's not a
pay to play model. right?
The. the club is spending the money on
the. on the travel and the Adidas gear
and. and everything across the board.
And I have said very directly
to. to parents that that
money is buying me distance.
And it's creating a little bit more
separation between you and I. And
if I'm working at a club and you
are paying. yeah. you're gonna have
more access to me. but right now I'm
paying or the ownership is paying.
And so I'm expecting that.
now I don't remove them completely.
And what I like to do is to bring them
in on what they're learning to a certain
degree. just enough where they realize.
oh. I'm using language and I'm talking
about things that they're not aware of.
I want them to have a little bit of
taste of that so that they start to
understand. oh. things are happening in
training. things are happening in matches.
I can't just be yelling from the sidelines
because I don't have any credibility here
because I'm not at training every day
and I'm not watching. and I don't know.
all of the intricacies of our model.
So. I do like to educate them a little
bit on what we're doing and why it's gonna
be really disruptive to have any message
that that could potentially counter
what we're trying to. trying to build.
Matt: Got it.
Liron: but this is. this
is really the challenge.
I'm gonna talk about parents.
'cause that's. that's. again.
that's what this is about.
If your kid. let's say a U 13 kid. okay.
and you're seeing your kid is. you have
a sense as a parent that is. the kid
is not top pecking order on the team.
But you don't really have transparency
from the team because like you said.
there's a certain distance built
into academy life at that point.
What is a parent to do?
Because if the kid has a certain
progression that you see where you
go. well. if my kid is not top.
20. 30% in this team. most likely
this kid is not gonna continue a path.
On the other hand. the teams are full
of kids that are not in the top 20. 30%.
So at that point the parents can help
but get involved or obviously have.
have misleading information for the kid.
What. what do you do then if. if.
uh. how do you advise parents in that
Pat: that. that.
I'm fine entertaining that conversation.
I was thinking you were talking
more about. oh. parents are
yelling from the sideline
Liron: We will get to that sideline
coaches like me.
which. which is a must.
We will get to that.
But tho those are
Pat: I'm happy to have a conversation and
what we would normally do is with player
evaluations for the younger ages. we have
the parents there to be a part of it.
And for the older ages. less so.
but for the younger ages.
And when we're talking about the pathway
for the kid. yeah. it's important.
it's good information to have the parent.
the kid's young and he's with the family
way more hours a day than he is with us.
So I like having that information.
I like seeing the dynamic.
I like seeing what that
relationship is like at home.
'cause it helps us do our job
better. when it comes to what
the best decision is for the kid.
yeah. I remind families that this is
a long road and I've seen kids make
it who you didn't really think were
gonna be the ones when they were
12 or 13 and they ended up being
the ones when they were 17. 18.
and also if this is really disruptive
to them. if this is stressful on
them and they're not enjoying the
experience. then maybe it is time to
talk about moving them to another club.
Liron: are I. I know you can't answer
that black and white. but do the parents?
Certain behavior by the parents influence
decisions that you make sometimes or.
because I find that every time I go
into these IDPs or into these reviews.
I. believe it or not. I. I shave.
I get dressed. I put deodorant on.
I try
to not like right
now. and I. and I feel like. you
know. I'm trying to court the coach
or trying to be on my best behavior.
Is that. is that just foolishness
or is it all about the kid or
do the parents have a place?
It's
okay.
Say it right now.
Pat: I think the authentic absolute.
the authentic. I would say the behavior
that turns me off. I'll give you the
honest answer. is if I start getting.
if I get the feeling that the kid is
at training and he's hearing from his
coach. hearing from his director. and
he is receiving information. and then
he gets in the car and there's what's.
and he's to know what's the club doing?
The coach doesn't know what he's
doing. all this kind of stuff.
That for me. right?
There is just a recipe
for. I'll. I'll reframe it.
It's not a recipe for a professional
player because it's really hard
what these kids are trying to do.
And if that community around them is not
the more unified it is. the better chance
he's gonna have being a professional.
And if he's getting in the car
and hearing a completely different
message. I think that hurts him.
Liron: Are you clear to the parents.
I mean. this is amazing what you
just said. but are you clear to
parents with this kind of information
explaining what it actually does?
Pat: This is. this is in that.
in that preseason meeting.
a hundred percent.
and it makes sense. right?
You're a young kid if you're. if that
community isn't around you pushing you
in that same direction. this. it's hard.
It's hard enough already to become a
professional player. let alone if you are
now the one. as a young kid navigating.
my coach is saying X. my. my mom or
dad is saying y it becomes so much
more difficult and it becomes a now a
stressful situation to come to training
or to drive home after training and.
But this. this is supposed to
be super challenging. but it's
also supposed to be enjoyable.
We're supposed to be enjoying the
game out here. and the parents
play a. a massive role in that.
Liron: So is it better to have parents
that were former soccer players. parents
who know nothing about soccer or parents
like us who think they're good at soccer?
Which one?
Pat: funny because I was talking
about this earlier. but I think
most of my favorite parents
were the ones who never played
And listen. it's not across the board.
there's definitely some great ones
who've been around the game for. you
know. for a long time and. and who
get it and who understand that a lot
of time and planning and energy goes
into what we're trying to do here.
And that it's not a smooth
sailing road up to the top.
there's gonna be obstacles.
So some parents inherently get that.
but I wouldn't say it's. if you've played.
you get it and if you haven't. you don't.
And I wouldn't say it
the other way either.
I think this comes down to how the parent
handles adversity that themselves and then
how they pass that along to their kids.
Liron: It's so fascinating.
And what about sideline coaching?
Two questions.
One is the parent who is on
the sideline coach and the
kid's reaction to the parent.
Are you looking at those things?
Pat: Oh. a thousand percent.
I can't.
I can't. I can't not
see it when it happens.
Um.
Liron: Explain.
Pat: it is seeing a kid if his
head goes over to the. I mean.
you talked about like signals that
make me start to ask questions.
That's a huge question mark.
Matt: speaking of signals. we all know it.
Even. even if we've partaken
in it occasionally. right?
I think we all know that it's
never a positive regardless.
so I'm not surprised by the answer.
Liron: Okay?
But in NYC
I.
Pat: it.
Liron: see parents. I mean. kids. kids
at U 13 still reacting to their parents.
This is not. I'm not talking
about a rare occurrence here.
Pat: I wanna be clear here.
What I'm not trying to do is take
ownership of the kid or create a
divide between parent and child.
That's. that's not the objective really.
I try to think of it very pragmatically
in I know what this. what his
coach is telling him all week.
And I also seeing that you're telling
him something that's either that's
contradictory or there's a question mark
in the kid's head as he's on the field.
And so now this is.
We. we don't have all the time in the
world to develop a professional player.
We have a very finite amount of time.
And so if this is going to
be less efficient here. then
that's a problem for me.
'cause we're. we're spending time. money.
and resources on these kids' development.
Matt: Hey. speak.
Speaking of time and what
happens in training. I'm curious.
Take a U 14. U 13. U 14 U 15 team.
And there's typically 18 kids
on a roster game day roster.
You may have. what. 22. 23 in training?
Is it?
Is that about right?
Pat: Low twenties.
Matt: Low twenties. the kids who are
15. 16. 17. or let's say 15 to 22.
Right.
'cause I'm sure that moves
around a decent amount.
How much less attention are they receiving
in training than let's whether it's
the. the. the typical 11 or 11 to 15?
'cause we've been discussing this a
decent amount. and I. I heard it this
year for the first time. which is the
kids who are playing Saturday and Sunday
and the kids who are playing the most
on Saturday and Sunday are getting the
large. large majority of the coaches'
Pat: Hmm.
Matt: And I'm curious
to your perspective on
Pat: It's interesting you say that
because sometimes I see the opposite
Matt: Hmm.
Pat: and sometimes I see
coaches spending too much time
Matt: Brian trying to bring kids up.
Pat: Over here and bringing kids
up and. and actually not spending
enough time with the top guy.
Like he. he still needs to be coached even
though he is the top guy in the group.
to answer your your question. we. at
least in the past. we've tried to keep the
rosters at the younger age groups smaller.
So I I said low twenties.
maybe even smaller than that
with the younger age groups.
And then probably a little more like low
twenties when it gets a little bit older.
because then they're getting a little
bit towards the end of the finish line
and they can emotionally handle kind of
the. the ups and downs that come with
being selected and being not selected.
I think we didn't wanna create a
situation where we had kids out too
often and we actually. made the rosters
thin at the younger ages for that.
for that reason.
Matt: Yeah. well. and you have the
luxury where it's not pay to play.
whereas if you look at the other.
whatever. 190 MLS next academies or
ECNL academies. who. where it is pay
to play. they're gonna take rosters.
Not all of them. but I would say
a decent amount of 'em are taking
rosters of 20 or 21 kids and then
narrowing it down to 18 and you're
playing. you know. you're trying to
find time for everybody at that stage.
Pat: Yeah. that's a tough one to manage.
And obviously they're in a
different boat in terms of the
finances that come along with that.
But yeah. we have the luxury
of of not being paid to play.
We also have the luxury of having
mechanisms like. future player program.
a player so he can play some matches
with his own club. and then we'll
bring him in for. you know. for a
certain weekend and play with us.
So there's certain mechanisms where we can
find a pretty good balance for most kids.
and then listen. at the end of the day.
if there is a kid who. outta place then
we talk to the kid. we talk to the family.
We try to. this is what this looks like.
Now we can talk about future playing.
playing you so you can get your
matches and still train with us.
For example. there's conversations
we can have to try to find.
uh. that happy medium.
Liron: This was the end of part one.
Uh. amazing.
Uh. in the next half we're gonna
talk about what's ahead for youth
soccer and soccer. American soccer
in general. trends. opportunities.
families and clubs. and how to navigate.
What's coming up next
for you and your kids?
Uh. and if you like this episode. my
kids are gonna crush me for saying this.
losing any type of street cred I ever had.
Please hit the like button and
subscribe and pass it along to all those
sideline warriors who you might think.
We get some value. or at the
very least. some entertainment.
Thanks again.
Liron: It feels dirty.
Saying it right. Matt?
Yeah. I know. I know.
It's
Matt: say. really feel really dirty.
Liron: good.
See you everybody next time.
Matt: Bye-bye.