The Pen Game with William Person

In this episode of The Pen Game, host William Person sits down with acclaimed author Toni Ann Johnson to discuss her latest novel, "But Where’s Home?"—the third installment in her compelling Arrington family series.
Set in 1960s upstate New York, But Where’s Home? follows a Black family navigating identity, belonging, and community during a time of social change. Johnson shares her approach to crafting multi-generational characters, building authentic historical settings, and exploring themes of race, family, and resilience through fiction.
From character development and dialogue to world-building and emotional truth, this conversation highlights how powerful stories are shaped and why they matter. Whether you're an aspiring author, a screenwriter, poet, or creative writer, this episode of The Pen Game expands your understanding of narrative craft through the lens of Black literature and long-form storytelling.


Show Notes:
 We dive into a compelling conversation with writer Toni Ann Johnson as she unpacks the layers of her series about the Arrington family, exploring themes of race, belonging, and personal growth. This episode offers insights into her storytelling techniques, character development, and the intricate reflections on her own experiences that shape her work.

In this episode:
  • The origins of Johnson’s series and her personal journey in writing about her family and community
  • How her characters reflect diverse perspectives on race, class, and identity
  • Techniques of narrative voice, including the use of first, second, and third person
  • The structural choices behind the series’ storytelling styles and point of view shifts
  • The role of Monroe’s setting as both a reflection and critique of societal comforts and prejudices
  • How childhood experiences of racism and family dynamics inform Johnson’s character arcs
  • The evolution of characters like Maddie, Livia, Velma, and Phil, and their internal conflicts
  • The thematic exploration of assimilation, black identity, and the pursuit of the ‘white ideal’
  • Johnson’s future projects and her approach to balancing humor and heartache in storytelling
 
Timestamps:
00:00 - Introducing Toni Ann Johnson and the central themes of her series
01:27 - The personal roots behind the stories of race and family in Monroe
02:44 - How literary collections influenced Johnson’s approach to narrative structure
04:43 - The story behind Maddie and the emotional impact of childhood racism
06:08 - Exploring the characters' perspectives and their perceptions of Monroe
07:07 - How character points of view expanded the series beyond Maddie’s story
08:29 - Initial impressions of the series' characters—author’s insights into their complexity
09:35 - Deeper character analysis: Phil’s motivations and Velma’s emotional dysregulation
11:15 - Maddie’s loneliness and emotional needs within her family environment
13:13 - The creation of Livia and her resilient, adjusted outlook
15:39 - Dissecting Livia’s observations and her versus Maddie’s experiences
17:46 - Narrative style: The interplay of first, second, and third person techniques
20:04 - How the use of second person enhances character interiority and relatability
22:34 - The influence of literary techniques like close third-person and framing
23:14 - The role of absorbing diverse stories in Johnson’s MFA and writing craft
24:43 - Insights into the self-critical voice of Maddie and the narrative’s emotional honesty
27:43 - The reflective, outsider perspective on Monroe—villain versus victim
30:04 - How characters envy and idealize different aspects of their upbringing and community
33:20 - The impact of neighborhood dynamics and racial identity on character development
36:08 - The critique of materialism and the illusion of the ‘white life’
38:05 - What drew Phil and Velma to Monroe? A look at aspirations versus reality
39:40 - The town of Monroe as a complex space: a reflection of societal contradictions
44:21 - Personal experiences versus community narratives: contrasting perspectives on Monroe
45:48 - The recurring theme of childhood trauma and its long-lasting effects
48:12 - Future directions for Johnson’s writing, focusing on Maddie’s solo life and relationships
50:44 - Possible exploration of Maddie’s marriage and romantic pursuits in upcoming stories
51:42 - Final thoughts and encouragement for writers to continue their craft

Resources & Links:
Connect with Toni Anne Johnson:
 
Notes:
This episode’s rich storytelling emphasizes the importance of nuanced characters and the ways personal history influences fiction. If you're interested in exploring narrative techniques and authentic portrayals of race and family, this conversation offers invaluable insights for writers and enthusiasts alike.

Connect with the host: William Person: 
Connect with the producer: Tiffani Rozier

Creators and Guests

WP
Host
William Person
Producer
Tiffani Rozier
Tiffani Rozier is a food and hospitality writer, podcast producer, and narrative strategist whose work lives across three doors: her own byline, Wild Cabbage Productions, and the Afros & Knives Oral History Project. She writes for Fussy Magazine, the Philadelphia Inquirer, Essence, and Real Simple — the kind of cultural reporting that gets the kitchen right because she spent fifteen years working in one. Wild Cabbage develops audio and documentary work rooted in food, hospitality, and the cultural memory neither industry tends to keep. Afros & Knives is becoming an archive — a long-form oral history project tracing Black culinary lineage toward institutional placement.

What is The Pen Game with William Person?

The Pen Game Podcast | Writing, Storytelling & Creative Disciplines

Hosted by William Person, The Pen Game is a storytelling podcast dedicated to exploring the art, craft, and business of writing across all disciplines. From screenwriters and novelists to poets, rappers, journalists, and speech writers, this show highlights the voices, processes, and perspectives behind powerful storytelling.

Each episode dives into how stories are created, structured, and delivered—covering topics like screenwriting, creative writing, songwriting, narrative development, dialogue, and story structure. Whether you're an aspiring writer, seasoned storyteller, or creative entrepreneur, The Pen Game offers insights, interviews, and practical lessons to help you sharpen your craft and elevate your voice.

The Pen Game, where story is everything and everything is story.

Untitled - May 5, 2026

00:00:00 Toni: The way that I came to focus on Maddie was I had this experience. You were probably on set and I wasn't. But, um, during the, the shooting of Ruby Bridges, Rick Fischer told me this story. And, um, the kid who played Ruby, Chaz Monet and the little boy who played Jimi were on set and the kid who played Jimi had to say the n word, and he didn't want to say it. And so the uzon, you know, called action. And he didn't say anything. And he was like, I can't say that. That's mean. And she and his mother explained to him, it's okay. Um, Rika was saying that the kid had developed a crush on Chaz and he really liked her. They're six years old, though, you know? So take that. Um, yeah. So finally he says it, and when Uzon calls cut, the kid lunges into Chaz's lap, hugs her, he's crying and he says, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it. And when she told me that, I just cried. And it reminded me of my first best friend who had called me that word. Yeah. Tobias, who had called me that word. His name wasn't Tobias. But my name's not Maddie either, so. But he had called me that, and he. I never got an apology. And we weren't friends again. Um, like he had figured out that I was black.

00:01:34 Billy: Welcome to the Penn Game, the podcast where we unpack the craft of writing through real conversations with writers across every discipline. I'm your host, William Pearson, and today we're joined by an extraordinary voice in contemporary literature. She is an award winning screenwriter and writer of literary fiction, whose latest work captures the intricate layers of family and identity with unflinching honesty. We're talking with Toni Ann Johnson about the third book in her brilliant series about the Arrington family. But where is home? Please welcome Toni Ann Johnson to the pen game. When I thought of my first guest, I, of course thought of you. I shot for the moon and I said, well, one of Toni's free, of course. And fortunately, you had your third your third book, third installment of the on the Errant, the Arrington Family. Uh, I guess I'll start with that. What was your personal journey with when you started writing your, your novels or your books about the Arrington family? Did it start with Maddie because she, she's I'm getting a lot of main character energy from her.

00:02:47 Toni: There's two parts to your question. So the first part, like what got me to start thinking about writing about my. It wasn't specifically about Matty or my family. What it was, was the experience of being this black family in a white town. So I was having lunch or dinner with Nelson George in New York City at Jezebel's, like, back in the eighties. And at the time I was writing plays, it was I was still an actress, and I had just begun like getting some of my plays produced. And he said, why don't you write about your experience in Monroe? Like, that's so unique. It's different. And I was like, it is like, I just didn't quite I was too close to it at that time. This is the late eighties to, to even understand what was interesting about it. So there was that I sort of put a pin in it and stuck it away for years and years. And then I went to graduate school and I started reading short story collection. So I, I listened to this. I'm sorry not listen, I read this is before I started listening to audiobooks all the time. I'm usually saying I listen because that's how I consume a good percentage of my books these days. But I read Junot Diaz, Drown and Sherman Alexie. The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven. And both of them were linked collections, um, about being in a specific place, being, um, a specific culture in a specific place. So I just saw in that, oh, I could do it like that because I hadn't thought about, you know, story collection, novel. I wasn't sure like how to approach it. And then the way that I came to focus on Maddie was I had this experience. You were probably on set and I wasn't. But, um, during the, the shooting of Ruby Bridges, Rick Fischer told me this story. And, um, the kid who played Ruby. Chaz Monet and the little boy who played Jimmy were on set, and the kid who played Jimmy had to say the N word, and he didn't want to say it. And so the Uzon, you know, called action. And he didn't say anything. And he was like, I can't say that that's mean. And she and his mother explained to him, it's okay. Um, Rika was saying that the kid had developed a crush on Chaz and he really liked her. They're six years old, though, you know? So take that. Um, so finally he says it, and when Uzon calls cut, the kid lunges into Chaz's lap, hugs her, he's crying, and he says, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it. And when she told me that, I just cried. And it reminded me of my first best friend who had called me that word. Um, yeah. Tobias, who had called me that word. His name wasn't Tobias. But my name's not Matty either, so. But, um, he had called me that, and he. I never got an apology. And we weren't friends again. Um, like he had figured out that I was black. Um, for people who are viewing, you could see I'm very light skinned sometimes people didn't know, especially kids. But when they figured it out in this town in Monroe, New York, in the late sixties and throughout the seventies, that was a problem because it was a by and large, racist place there. There were liberal people. There were definitely people who weren't racist. There were definitely people who were nice, but the racists ruined it for me. So that's what I mean. I have those scars and memories. So anyway, that, you know, that incident really hurt me. And I did start with the Matty story. So, you know, it was focused on Matty, but then there was I was interested in how my parents like came to be there. So I did, you know, broaden it out. And then when I was working with an agent on developing the large book, that was like five hundred pages that became these three books. She encouraged me to bring in other points of view. I already had Velma and her, her white housekeeper, Gertie. This is light skinned, gone to waste. I'm talking about. And I had Maddie's father, but I didn't have as many other points of view. So that's when I started to bring in some other points of view and add the sister Olivia. So it did start with the idea of this black family and this white town, you know, in the sixties and 70s. And then it became, um, you know, focused on Maddie because Maddie's based on me. So I know me the best. But then I did start interviewing my parents and my sister and I got more information. And so that's how it became about, you know, more than just Matty more than just the family. Even it became a little bit larger.

00:08:00 Billy: Okay. All right. And I had I had mentioned earlier that, you know, I came with just my initial reaction because when I, when I read the books, I read them all like back to back in the series. And it's a lot of things I would, I guess, maybe think that what happened in homegoing happened in, uh, light skinned gone to waste, or maybe it happened in some symptoms. I was getting some of those mixed up, but my initial reaction to the characters I was, I came up with like one word to describe them. And I wanted to know what was authentically, what would be the word the author would use to describe each character. And I, of course, came up with when my first reaction was that. Your father was horny. That was, that was he's a he's a womanizer.

00:08:51 Toni: Yeah. I don't think horny and I don't think woman, womanizer and horny are synonymous, though I think I think yes, he was definitely a womanizer and he was probably horny, but I think there's a deeper reason than just being horny. I think it's about power and validation and wanting, like needing the adulation of these these women that he's not supposed to be able to have. So I think it is more than he's just horny. Um.

00:09:23 Billy: And please excuse me. I said your father. I didn't mean I meant Phil, I know I meant the father character. Yeah. I didn't mean your father. Yeah, but anyway, go ahead. No, but it applies to real. It applies.

00:09:35 Toni: As well. But I, I, I mean, I definitely think there's a lot more to it than just sexual desire. I feel like it's, um, a assimilation and social climbing and, you know, you're not as a black man in the sixties in a white town you're not supposed to be having sex with with white women, you know? And I think that he intentionally sought out white women, not only because they were there, but because it was almost like a kind of triumph for him in his in his mind. Um, the taboo of that, you know, and it's not that the family would have been any less upset if he were cheating on Velma with, um, with a black woman, but it, it was an extra, um injury, I think because it seemed to be saying that he was buying into the colonized mindset of, you know, white women are prettier, like, like liking that look better because, you know, none of us were that. Um, and it was, I felt, I felt like it was an insult to black women and to my mother specifically.

00:10:53 Billy: Right? And speaking of. Well. Velma. Velma. Character I came up with the one word was unhinged. And that was my response that that that volatile kind of volatile. And, and she could snap at a moment like you're always walking on eggshells, that type of person who could who could just snap in a moment. So that was the word I came up with unhinged. What would you what would you say dysregulated.

00:11:16 Toni: I would call her dysregulated, emotionally dysregulated. She couldn't she had no control over her emotions. So whatever came up, whatever she was feeling, she was going to express it. If she was feeling anger or rage, she was going to take it out on someone. And that someone happened to most often be Maddie. Um, so yeah, I think she was a person that just could not self-soothe or self-regulate. Like if she had a bad emotion, she needed the attention of people around her. She needed to upset or hurt other people around her because she just couldn't sit with the discomfort of her emotions, negative emotions.

00:11:59 Billy: And moving on to to Maddie. I would say she seems lonely.

00:12:04 Toni: I would agree. Yeah, I think I would, I would describe her as isolated. She doesn't even realize how isolated she is because she doesn't have that much to compare it to except for her cousin's life. But she's, you know, pretty often the only black kid in her class. She's the only black kid in her neighborhood, although there there are a couple of black girls that she plays with who are in the town, but not her neighborhood. But she is she is isolated. And she's also. She's lonely even within the family because the the parents are so self-involved that they don't really pay attention to her emotional needs. So she doesn't really she's not really able to express her emotional needs or ask for her emotional needs to be met. She's not really allowed to have them.

00:12:58 Billy: And Olivia is a completely new character or a she's created from your imagination. You don't have. Do you have a sibling that would feel that?

00:13:09 Toni: Yes.

00:13:11 Billy: Oh, so you do have.

00:13:13 Toni: Olivia's based on on someone.

00:13:16 Billy: Oh, okay. All right. Well, we're. The word I use for Olivia was, um, adjusted and well adjusted.

00:13:24 Toni: That one, I think only in one story is she adjusted. I think that she's resentful. Okay. I think that Livia wishes that she had had the experience of being able to grow up in their father's houses. She resents that Maddie got, um, a more upper middle class Lifestyle than she had. And she's never she doesn't get over that. Um, she creates that for herself and for her child, but she maintains her resentment, um, for, you know, the duration. Um, but she is, you know, she is less crazy than the rest of them because she wasn't in that house even in the story. Um, but where's home? Where she's been away and she's finished law school and she's got a career. She still stressed out a little bit about, you know, what she didn't get and, and she's not yet able to really, um, push back on Phil as much as he might deserve. You know, she still, she, she's, she does it a little bit, but she, she's not as evolved as she is in the penultimate story dotted out where she is able to say, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. She, she's able to set a boundary by that time. So I think she grows to be she becomes the most well adjusted. But that's a trajectory. It's not I wouldn't I don't think you can define her character that way. She comes into that in the book.

00:15:04 Billy: Well, how about a she seemed least affected by that. Whatever it is you're saying she felt for her sister, like everybody else seems to be affected? I think.

00:15:11 Toni: She is. I think she is affected. I think she's affected in the story home where she realizes she, um, her room is only the guest room. She's, you know, and then in the story pride, um, she talks about how Velma had beat her once and, you know, she figured out early on that the woman was crazy. So she, she just sort of took a step back. But, um, but she also taught, you know, has in her, in her interiority, she's like, why do I even bother to come here? I mean, actually, she says that to feel like she she constantly feels marginalized. And it's hurtful. It's painful, and it's unfair. Like she shouldn't have been treated that way. She didn't. She feels like she didn't get a family experience because she wasn't the primary child in that family and her own mother. You know, there just wasn't that much there for her. Her, her mother. Um, wasn't that into being a mom? Her mother was was a little bit, a bit distant. So she, she is resentful and she carries that resentment and it comes out in the story, the novella. But where's home when they're in the car and she goes off on Matty about what a shitty sister Matty was, you know, like she's yelling at her about shit she did when she was three years old. You know, she she's she's still she's not unscathed by the experience. She she, you know, she does her best. And she's she's determined not to continue the dysfunction within her own family.

00:17:13 Billy: Going into more of your techniques, as far as there's first, second, third person, you know, throughout and I was it reminded me of how I read a biblical text is like a lot of it you read is first person I, I and then there's a lot of you, then there's a lot of speaking, you know, greatly about, you know, the, the nation of Israel, uh, Christians, whatever, as, as a, as a group. So I noticed a lot of that. Did you recognize that or see that or was that any.

00:17:45 Toni: No, I didn't, and I was fascinated to hear that. Um, I have always, even since my first book, um, remedy for a broken Angel, which isn't in this series, but it was my first novel. I've always had an interest in, in spirituality in my work. So I've always, um, had that as a thread, but I definitely wasn't writing with an awareness that this had the approach had a similarity to a biblical biblical text. But you know, my book and its style is not unique in the literary landscape. There's a lot of books that, that do that and probably drown does that. I don't remember specifically, but I'm sure that it does at some point. And I recently read a book that's also about a family called Colman Hill, and that writer, um, Kim Colman Foot does the exact same thing. Like there's first person, second person, and third person. So it's not, you know, I haven't invented the wheel Like I'm I'm so I'm sort of like writing within the literary tradition of my, you know, my people that I've read. Um, so I think in that way, my book is in conversation with other story collections or novels that use, um, you know, that are written in, uh, in stories. Um, so I think that that is fairly common now, um.

00:19:09 Billy: In the, uh, the darted out chapter. Uh, you, you, uh, I guess it's in, but where's home? Can you describe how your choice for, uh, I guess the second person narrative with, um, with Olivia because it's like the, the voice is, is telling in real time what's happening in her life. So like, I was kind of wondering, okay, well, who is speaking? Is it is her speaking about herself? Is it her? Is it I.

00:19:37 Toni: Do see it as her speaking about herself. The story is in present tense second person. So that's that's why it comes off that. And that's what a lot of second person point of view stories do. They're, you know, they're in second person and they're, and they're often in, um, the present tense. So in light skin gone to waste, I think, um, claiming Tobias was in the same voice was also second person. Um, and then there's also other ways to do it where the you is not the speaker, it's the other character that the person is speaking to. So again, in light skin gone to waste. Matt. There's a you don't even, you're not even sure if it's. Matty, but I think you figure out that it's. Matty. But she is talking to a you, but it's not her. So in this story in daughter's daughter out, I think it's Olivia's consciousness speaking to herself. It's like her higher self.

00:20:31 Billy: Right? See, that's what I mean by I was saying, like, after reading your series, it has improved my writing life tremendously. There's so many things I've become. You've passed on a lot of techniques that I really wasn't aware of. Like I, um, I never even thought to write in third person where you were, where the third person is written in the character's voice, so to speak. Like I think I picked out one where, uh, where Velma says, I wrote it out, I wrote it out. I just liked it. It was so great.

00:21:03 Toni: I remember it so well.

00:21:04 Billy: So I'd rather look the devil sweaty balls in hell, like, and I was like, well, that's nobody but Velma. Who will say that? But Velma was not talking. It's the. Yeah, it was really cool. I was like, oh, wow. So I guess you can do that, huh?

00:21:16 Toni: That's called close third. So there's third person omniscient, which is the person, you know, the narrator who can see everything and is in everyone's consciousness. But there's also the third person close that's basically like, you know, within the either on the person's shoulder or in the person's head. And you can do all of that. It's like a camera. So your camera can be way out here and you can write from that perspective, or your camera can be on the shoulder and maybe seeing other other things that are going on, or your camera can be inside the character's head and you're writing from that person's point of view. So it's almost like first person, but it's third. So it gives you a little flexibility with, you know, you don't have to say, I, I, I, I all the time. Sometimes the character might verbalize I, but you don't have as many eyes like you can, you know, you can say she or the character's name, but, but when you're in first person, you can't really say she unless the person's a little odd and you, you. The character's not typically going to refer to themselves in the third person or as their name. So the third person close gives you a lot of flexibility with your POV.

00:22:34 Billy: This is the pen game. This is what I mean. I need to have. Thank you so much. This is the value you're adding to my own writing life. But also, you know, any anybody's watching right now. So thank you.

00:22:45 Toni: That just comes from reading a lot. That's why I listen to so many audiobooks, because I wasn't a writer or I wasn't writing literature or fiction as a young person. So I read a lot, but I, but I read a lot of plays, I read screenplays, um, I wasn't, I read a lot of novels, but not as many novels as I would have read had I been interested in writing fiction when I started becoming interested in writing, um, which was like young. So I had to catch up. So I, you know, I listened to like sometimes, you know, two to three audiobooks a week because I'm, I'm on this always absorbing books. And so when you absorb like, you know, seventy to one hundred books a year, you are, um, you know, you're, you're learning all that and it's also great. You know, I was introduced to those techniques in my MFA program. So you did your MFA in screenwriting. If you did an MFA in fiction, you'd be exposed to all of that. The other one that you didn't bring up is the first person plural, the we voice. That's the neighbors, the meghna's. That's a, that's a, that's a first person. But rather than I, it's we, it's a first person plural. So that's another thing I was exposed to, um, in graduate school that I didn't know about when I, you know, when I started, there was actually a lecture on it. And there are books, you know, written like that. The, the, the Virgin Suicides is written, it's a whole novel written in first person plural.

00:24:43 Billy: Well, I know we've talked. We've talked about it briefly. I think maybe in email. But was it intentional to make Maddie's, uh, first person voice the only one that was seen to be self-critical? Or did it turn out?

00:25:02 Toni: I never even realized that. But I do think that, um, that Emily, the character at the end, who's Phil's mother, I think she's a little bit self-critical, like she admits that she favored sometimes favored one son over the other. And she admits that she was trying to apologize for what she didn't. You know what she didn't do? And she says, you know, there is no making that. She learned. There is no making up for the love. You don't give. What you do or don't do with your offspring makes the mold that shapes them. And I think in that there's an admission of failure, um, in that she like, she didn't do that for Phil and she knows that Phil is angry with her. Um, but there's a, there's a change in, in, in the story, he, there's a discovery that, oh, like that anger, um, doesn't necessarily travel with you when you go to the next phase. Um, but no, like I, so the reason that neither Phil or Velma are able to be self-critical is because narcissists are not self-critical. Narcissists do not think that there's anything wrong with what they do. Anything that they do, they will figure out a way to either justify it or make it someone else's fault. Nothing is their fault. They're never wrong. They're always the victim. Um, and so that Wasn't intentional, but that's just authentically what a narcissist is like. If you have a narcissist that talks about like, oh, I wish I had done this better. That's something else. Phil and Velma are both narcissists. So, so they don't, um, is Livia also a narcissist? Maybe. Um, I don't think that she is self-critical. I don't think that she feels that she has done anything wrong. I think she too feels like a victim. Um, but she's not, um, she, she's not quite an abusive narcissist if she is one, but I, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Um, I think she definitely has a self righteous perspective in relationship to everybody else. So Velma has wronged her, Phil has wronged her and Mattie has wronged her. And she doesn't seem to have any awareness of anything she's done wrong, so I don't know. And I think that's how the character is as I see it.

00:27:42 Billy: Even without, like I said, the the first person, you know, self critical, it feels probably more it feels more real to me because I'm trying to like, say it without saying because my mother isn't Velma. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I identified with a lot of what Maddie went through and what she lived through. And I thought about, okay, well, how does she see her? How does Maddie see her upbringing as an upbringing? Because as I was younger, I felt like, you know, I was experienced a lot of things on my own because I'm an only child. And I just was curious. Did Maddie feel like an only child, or did she feel like Olivia was there or her sister? Does she somebody who she could experience whatever with?

00:28:32 Toni: Yeah. No, no, she definitely felt like an only child because Olivia is gone by the time Maddie's seven years old and she doesn't really, um, you know, as there as when Maddie's born. Olivia is ten, and she only comes on the weekends, so she's not there for the bulk of the time. And there's a lot of things that she can't even remember, you know, Olivia being in the house. So she knows that she has a sister and she she appreciates that she has a sibling. But Olivia wasn't there. Um, Olivia wasn't in the house like when Maddie's, you know, growing up, she just wasn't there a lot. So by the time she goes to college, by the time she's seven and then she's not coming on the weekends anymore, so she's only coming like maybe for a holiday once in a while, but not always because she has her own mother and Velma is Maddie's only child, and Maddie grows up in both households, you know, both houses, um, alone. She doesn't there isn't another. There isn't a sibling. So she, she very much feels like an only child, but she has a half sister who she infrequently sees. But that isn't the same as having a sibling that you grow up with, particularly when your sibling is ten years older than you. So that's like an adult, you know, like she's not a child and Maddy's still a child. And Olivia is an adult, right? So it's not like having a sibling, really.

00:30:04 Speaker 3: I got you.

00:30:05 Billy: I felt like also, I guess part of the reason why I was saying I felt Olivia was well adjusted or adjusted is also that after reading it, it felt like that was what, um, the connection with family, the not having to live amongst a lot of racist white people like that existence was something like Olivia's whole existence was something that Maddy wanted before she even came to earth, because she sang like she didn't want Phil. She. Phil was not her choice. That was Velma's choice. Yeah, but what about racist? She was saying like, why would you move there? So I guess she's coming with this kind of like perspective of, of knowing what would be better for the Maddie that's to come. So it felt like Olivia lived that out pretty much.

00:30:55 Toni: I didn't think of it that way, but I don't think you're wrong. Um, you know, so when she goes to college, she it's not really in the book, but she. Well it is, it is in light skin gone to waste. So in light skin gone to waste. Olivia comes with her boyfriend who's black, who's like an upper middle class black guy. He comes with her and they end up visiting Phil at his apartment while his mistress is there. Um, but he's a he's black. So so Livia has some black friends at, at school. Um, but but her school isn't anything like Howard. It's not a black school. So, you know, there's still a minority. Um, you know, probably similarly to Maddie's school at NYU, um, in terms of the numbers, but I don't know exactly. Um, but also, you know, Olivia was going to college in like the, the early seventies, and that was a very, um, um, what's the word I want to use? Um, you know, it was a time of when black people were very vocal, like black is beautiful was, was around then. And, um, she had a period where she wore an afro and there were protests and, you know, it was a very politically charged time. Um, I think that was less the case, um, for Maddie. So Maddie, you know, Maddie finds black friends eventually, but we don't really meet them, um, at NYU, except for Gustavo, who's Cuban. Um, so he may not identify as black or he may. He's a brown person. So he's he's not white. Um, but she doesn't, she doesn't get to live like, grow up in a, in a black community. The way that, um, that Olivia does. Olivia grows up in the Bronx and I think, you know, Maddie would have would have preferred that. But as Olivia sees it, you know, she didn't grow up with the kind of affluence that Maddie gets to grow up around. So each of them, you know, kind of envies the other's experience. But Maddie is more aware of Susie's life than she is of Olivia's upbringing. She's too young when when Olivia's growing up in the Bronx to really know what her life is like. Um, but she does see that Susie lives in a black community and it's, it's pretty much middle class. And Susie thinks that the only option is like living in a lower class, working class neighborhood in the Bronx or, you know, some other version of what they would call a ghetto. But Susie lives in a in a community that's like middle class, maybe not upper middle class, but it's middle class. It's not, you know, there are homeowners, the kids go to college. Um, and even living like Olivia stays in the Bronx, but she goes to Bronx Science and, you know, they're in some of those communities. There were a variety of classes of people. Um, but Phil and Velma don't want to live in a black community. And I feel like that is part of their own brainwashed, colonized thinking that if you are in a white community, you know, you're ascending and in some way it makes you better. Um, but Maddie doesn't really feel that way. She, she would rather live around more people that are like her. She doesn't like being like the only black person in, in the environment. Um, and she's realized that, you know, this isn't the only way that, you know, you can have a good life. And she doesn't like that life anyway. So, but I think, you know, she doesn't have any power or agency in that situation because she's still a child. Like it's a decision that she would have to make as an adult. Um, but I think that Phil and Velma are, are limited by their own colonized thinking, believing that somehow assimilation means that you're better. And I just I don't believe that anymore. For me, that's, that's what the last story is getting at. When, when Emily is saying, like, my son sees that my little life had value. She has a whole community of people who come to her funeral because she was loved and she's grown up around, you know, people that she's known for a long time, and it's her friends and family, and she has this whole community. And she's like, when when he goes like, who's going to who's going to show like, so, you know, there are advantages to living in a white community that's, that's affluent. Certainly Phil gets the home with the pool and the tennis court, but his marriage implodes and he is not he after after he leaves that house, he never lives in it again. He gets to stay on the property. But Velma has that house all to herself for almost twenty years. He never lives there again. He just he uses one cottage as an office. So what was it all for? Like this pursuit of, you know, this financially? Um, great life. Like it was hollow. It was all about materialism and ascending and climbing and kind of losing one's blackness. Like if you're in a if you're in an all white space, what what room is there for you to celebrate who you really are? You're so busy trying to fit in and trying to be accepted by other people, that there's no room for you to feel good about your authentic self. And I think I think subconsciously, Phil and Velma bought into that lie of black inferiority. And I think that Mattie was vulnerable to it. I don't think she believes it, but I think she's going to it's going to take her a while to sort out that that was a lie. You know, like she's been marginalized and made to feel like she's not as good. I mean, she knows that she's as good, but she's in a whole environment that is constantly reaffirming white supremacy. Um, and, and I, you know, is that a better life than growing up in a little bit less affluent community, but where everybody is black or the, you know, it's predominantly black and you're celebrated and it's fun. And there's other kids who, you know, who see you and, and see your value that you're not just the black kid, you know. So I feel like that's partly what this is about too. It's, you know, this pursuit of this so-called great white life. Um, would.

00:38:04 Billy: You, would you say that's what initially or what really was the attraction between Phil and Velma? Because I wondered that. Um, what was it that because Velma's.

00:38:18 Toni: Well, the opening story clearly says she was going to marry nothing less than a handsome professional. She wanted a professional man. And what I didn't write, but was true, is she wanted a light skinned, professional black man. But I was like, okay, this character is already really hard, like to tolerate. I felt like if I said that, it would be even worse. So I left that out. But she wanted to marry a light skinned man. She wanted a light skinned baby. That's, you know, my mother. Um, but Velma wanted a big life. She wanted, you know, somebody who was she was willing to marry somebody who didn't have money, but she was wanted to marry somebody who was going somewhere, who was going to get her somewhere, you know. And she wanted that upper middle.

00:39:11 Billy: Going to Monroe represented that. Um, moving to Monroe was okay.

00:39:17 Toni: I think it did. I think it did. I think, you know, being even though, you know Monroe in the nineteen sixties really was not the most impressive town. Like it's not, you know, it's largely working class, but there's a there was a small or it was I don't really know what it is now. I mean, it's, it's more integrated now, but at the time there were people living in Monroe who'd never been out of there, who'd never been to the city and feared the city and didn't know any black people. And, you know, um, it was a largely working class community at the time. There was a small enclave of Jewish Jewish liberals who belonged to the temple, and Phil and Velma were friendly with that group. And then some of the, the other, um, you know, non-Jewish people who were also liberal. But, but that was a very small part of the town. It wasn't like the whole town. The whole town was more conservative than liberal, conservative and, you know, really not not happy about black people being around because that was my experience in it.

00:40:55 Billy: Your perspective on Monroe? It felt like it's a villain in itself. Like this is the place. It didn't represent anything good. Please explain to me what was good about Monroe. I guess for the characters or for you or.

00:41:08 Toni: Well, I think from their point of view, it was good because they both grew up in urban places like, you know, city like densely populated cities. And, um, and for them it was good because it was more so people call Monroe a suburb. It was not a suburb. When they moved there. It was rural. It may be a suburb now, but it was not a suburb in in nineteen sixty two, when they moved there, there were cows up the street like it was a rural place with hillbillies. Um, and then there were, there were some sophisticated people too. Everybody was in a hillbilly. Um, and every, you know, I wouldn't, I would say that calling Monroe a villain would be a step too far because it wasn't an entirely like, you know, racist place. There were racists there. And that's what Mattie experienced a lot of. But I don't think Phil and Velma experienced that to the same degree, because they could curate their friendships if they didn't want to hang out with somebody who was racist. They didn't have to. They were both self-employed. Phil had patients. He didn't have to take on racist patients, he didn't have to socialize with with racist people if he didn't want to. But Matty didn't have that choice because she was in public school. And so everybody went to the same school except for the kids who went to the private school or the Catholic school. And she didn't. So she was in school with kids that were, you know, from liberal families and kids who were from incredibly racist families who called her the n word, who like, wouldn't allow her to participate in certain things. Um, so I think that, you know, if you're asking me, like I have a perspective on Monroe that was entirely different from my parents and from my sister. They did not see it as the villain I did. So it's the villain to Matty, not the villain. I would say that Velma is more of a villain in Matty's life than the town itself. Um, but yeah, I mean, that is definitely a matter of perspective. Um, I think, yeah, I mean, they, I think they thought it was great that they ascended to the point where they could have a built in heated pool and a tennis court and multiple dwellings on their property. They had an estate, I think they thought that was absolutely fabulous. And, and that was what they achieved in Monroe. So I don't think they would think that there was nothing good about it. Velma's business was successful. My mother had her antique shop business from nineteen sixty eight until recently. So over fifty years she was in business. My father practiced as a as a psychologist from the nineteen sixties until he was diagnosed with dementia in twenty thirteen. They had successful lives there. I never lived there again or tried to do any business. I hated it. I couldn't wait to get out of there, but I had a different experience than they did, so I can't blame the town. I think that I think that Phil and Velma, or my parents did not care, that it was not a happy place for a black girl to grow up. Um, I think that they were more interested in their own happiness and their own lives. I don't think they really considered how very miserable their daughter was. And, you know, it's fine. Life went on. I, you know, I live in a black community now. I'm fine. But, um, yeah, it sucked.

00:44:57 Billy: I think that's the lens through which I see Monroe basically, like I said through Madison, as I'm reading it, I'm, I'm identifying with Maddie more than anything, anything else in there. And I think that's part of it that however Maddie saw Monroe, I saw it the same way. So when I walk away saying that Monroe's the villain. But you're right that it was a much more of a yeah.

00:45:22 Toni: I think in in the story, home going, Monroe becomes the villain because she goes back and she literally like, confronts the town. She confronts like multiple people who were mean to her when she was a kid. And so the guy I don't know if you made this connection, but in claiming Tobias, there's a family of boys who throw rocks at Maddie, and one of those boys is the usher at the funeral in homegoing. And so, so Velma is like, hey, you know, I have forgotten what I named him now, but Velma's introducing her and she's like, yeah, he threw rocks at me and called me a nigger. And she's like, oh my God, would you let it go already? Because she doesn't let it go. Like she, you know, it's, it sticks with her. Like when you're, when you're like six years old and somebody throws rocks at you and calls you the N word, you don't forget that. It's like it becomes part of who you are, who you become. You might be able to shed it like in some kind of therapy, eMDR or something, but Manny hasn't done that, so she's still pissed off about that. Um, so I think in that book, um, the town is a villain. And then in if there's a villain, um, and then in Light Skin gone to waste, is it, I don't know, maybe in this book in, but where's home? I'm not sure that there is a villain. There's, there are antagonists and I think both Phil and Velma are antagonists for Maddie and to some degree Olivia also. But, um, I think Maddie and Phil are antagonists to Olivia too. So it's like, you know, it depends. And I guess Maddie is an antagonist to Velma. Um, but I think it's easier to empathize with Maddie because she has less power than Velma. Um, And Phil is certainly an antagonist to Velma. Like he drives her crazy. Like, truly, he drives her bananas.

00:47:30 Billy: I think we have covered everything I wanted to cover. I appreciate your time.

00:47:35 Toni: Thanks for having me.

00:47:36 Billy: I do want to know, do you see continuing with the fourth book or is it too early to say?

00:47:42 Toni: Um, so I do have a couple of ideas for, for some more stories, but I'm not sure if, if those stories would be in a book that involves the whole family again. Um, I'm not sure. I don't think that there's going to be another, like, whole, whole family story, but there might be. There's, I still have memories to mind from crazy stuff that, um, that happened. So maybe, but there's definitely a couple of stories that I'm thinking about that happen when Maddie is single And, um, so one of the things that happens when you're the child of narcissists and you don't understand that you don't, you don't really understand that you are the child of narcissists. You pick partners who are similar to one or both of your parents who are like emotionally unavailable, very critical. Everything's about them. You people please. And you, if you haven't figured out what's going on, you keep repeating and attracting the same type of person until you figure it out and stop. And so Maddie does that. Maddie has a period where she just keeps picking one man who's not into her over. Like, you know, it's just it's like she perpetuates that. And her parents have thoughts about this, but it's never that's how we were. And so that's why you're attracted to it. It's always her. It's always like, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, what do you see in him? He's, you know, he's a bum like, um, and so that's something that I, I want to explore and I want to make it, um, more comedic, um, a little bit less, uh, heart wrenching. Although, I mean, you know, I'm not, I don't regret having written things that are heart wrenching, but I don't want everything to be so sad. And there's a, there's a writer whose short story collections I absolutely love. It's a white woman named Melissa Bank, and she wrote this book called, um, The Girls Guide to Hunting and Fishing. And then another one called the Wonder Spot. And they're, they're both about people like in their thirties, um, and dating and like their relationships and a little bit about their family, like their families sort of come into it, but it's a lot about their pursuit of romantic relationships. And it's hilarious. And it's a, it's not heart wrenching, but it's moving. And I would love to write something like in that vein because I just I love the tone of her books. I don't I would be over the moon if I could write something as funny because I like, laugh through the wonder spot in particular is so funny and The Girls Guide to Hunting and fishing is funny and sweet and you know, you root for this character, but they're linked stories. I think they're published as novels, I think, but they're linked stories about this girl and her family and her brother. And, you know, it's really fun.

00:50:43 Billy: So do you see going into Maddie's marriage any more in the next book or, um.

00:50:51 Toni: Maybe. Maybe I'm not sure. I don't know, I mean, I, I did a little bit of it in homegoing, but just the end of it. But maybe, maybe because she definitely marries somebody who's on the, you know, spectrum of narcissism. He's, he's not as bad. I don't as some of the other guy. I think he's an improvement over the men that she dates. Like in her twenties and thirties. I think she marries him like in her early thirties, like thirty three or thirty four. Um, but yeah, she had, she kissed a lot of toads up until that point. And he's not that great, but he's not, you know, he's not as bad as some of the others.

00:51:33 Billy: Right. Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, I appreciate it. Good luck with the book. I am going to tell everybody, run out there and grab. But where's home? Please do.

00:51:43 Toni: And if you.

00:51:43 Billy: If.

00:51:44 Toni: You think about it, could you leave a rating or review on Goodreads or Amazon? Um, that would be so helpful. Thank you.

00:51:53 Billy: Thank you, Tony, for giving us a writer's eye view of the world of the Harringtons, allowing us to view the Harrington family's story from fresh, new angles. But Where's Home is available now. And to our listeners. Keep writing. The game isn't over. We'll see you next time on the pen game.