Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Take a deeper dive into how state policy drives habitat conservation, promotes access, and protects our hunting and outdoor traditions.

Dr. Mike Brasher sits down with South Carolina State Senator Chip Campsen, DU’s Southern Region Director of Public Policy Ed Penny, and Wildlife Mississippi Executive Director James Cummins. They unpack proven tools like the South Carolina Conservation Bank, dedicated state funding models, and why respectful behavior and smart policy both matter for the future of hunting and fishing.

From perpetual conservation easements to college‑town river hunts and the role of Boone & Crockett, this episode shows how statehouses—and the people who vote them in—influence opportunities for every hunter and angler. 

Takeaways:
  • How the South Carolina Conservation Bank leverages competitive grants and easements to protect ~500,000 acres—and why seed funding stretches dollars farther 
  • Voluntary, perpetual easements: property‑rights friendly, customizable, and often paired with public access incentives 
  • Why clustered easements (ACE Basin, Santee Delta) create ecosystem‑scale wins for waterfowl and wildlife 
  • Dedicated state funding models (e.g., Mississippi Outdoor Stewardship Trust Fund) unlock big federal matches and local projects 
  • Social license to hunt and fish: how hunter behavior, messaging, and policy safeguard opportunity beyond a constitutional “right” 
  • CSF/NASC: bipartisan networks where state legislators swap playbooks that protect hunting, angling, and access 
 
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Send feedback: DUPodcast@ducks.org

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Whether you're a seasoned hunter or just getting started, this episode is packed with valuable insights into the world of waterfowl hunting and conservation.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Mike Brasher
DUPodcast Science Host

What is Ducks Unlimited Podcast?

Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.

Mike Brasher:

Hey, everyone. Join us on this episode as we continue our conversation about the importance of state legislation in affecting what we are able to do as hunters, anglers, trappers, recreational shooters. We visit with a series of guests on a couple of specific issues that will be important to you. They're important to conservation. They're important to our right to hunt. We also touch on a few other topics that are gonna be important to hunters from all walks of life all across The US. Stay with us.

VO:

Can we do a mic check, please? Everybody, welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast.

VO:

I'm your host, doctor Mike Brazier. I'm your host, Katie Burke. I'm your host, doctor Jared Hemphill. And I'm your host, Matt Harrison.

VO:

Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, the only podcast about all things waterfowl. From hunting insights to science based discussions about ducks, geese, and issues affecting waterfowl and wetlands conservation in North America. The DU podcast, sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Also proudly sponsored by Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails.

VO:

Whether you're winding down with your best friend or celebrating with your favorite crew, Bird Dog brings award winning flavor to every moment. Enjoy responsibly.

Mike Brasher:

Welcome back, everyone. This is Doctor. Mike Brazier. I'm gonna be your host on this episode. This is part two of our discussion on sort of state legislation, state policy, and the important role that a lot of our staff and a lot of our partners play in helping to shape the the rules, the regulations, the laws that affect what we get to do as sportsmen and women, hunters, anglers, trappers, and recreational shooters.

Mike Brasher:

Previous episode, we spoke with Kaylee Liger and Swanee Evans, and they kinda gave us a big overview of what this particular summit is all about and what a lot of the folks are working on. In this episode, we're gonna transition to a couple of more specific examples. We've got a few people that are going to join us here in a couple of segments, and we're going to give you a taste of additional items that are important and how the work at the state level affects all of us and why we should be interested. We're here now with state senator Chip Kampson, District 43 in South Carolina. And we are going to, as this part of the conversation, explore another example, a real specific example of how state legislation can make a profound impact on natural resources of our states, of our country, benefit waterfowl, benefit wildlife, and everybody that enjoys that.

Mike Brasher:

And the example that we're gonna talk with you about here in a few minutes is the South Carolina Conservation Bank. We actually had someone on an episode two or three years ago that dug into some of the details of that, but this gives us a really unique opportunity to speak with you here on location in Memphis at the National Assembly of Sportsman's Caucus Summit, and as a person that has been a leader in one of these issues at the state level that, as I said, make a profound impact on the on the wildlife and wild places and the habitat of our country. So we'll get into that in a minute, but people love to hear about the folks that are making some of these decisions. We like to put sort of a face, a a sense of being to the people that we're talking to here. And so tell us about yourself and why you care, why natural resources is so important to you, why the conservation of those resources is so important to you.

Chip Kampson:

Well, I'm a fifth generation Charlestonian in Charleston, South Carolina. I have a 100 ton captain's license. I owned a passenger vessel business that ran passengers to Fort Sumter National Monument where the civil war began, dinner cruises, harbors, etcetera. I am an avid outdoorsman, fisherman, love offshore fishing, do a lot of tournament offshore fishing, big hunter, and surfer. That's that's those are the passions I love.

Chip Kampson:

They're all coastal related as far as in South Carolina. And one of the reasons that I think conservation is so important is because early on, like in 2000, I was in the I was a member of the house, and Charleston was the tip of the spear when it comes to in migration into South Carolina. And the South Carolina I grew up with, the coastal South Carolina, it was just magnificent. I mean, it was very it was very sparsely populated, great hunting, great fishing. But Charleston being such an attraction, it was the first city in South Carolina where that really was dealing with exploding growth in in like, at the turn of the century.

Chip Kampson:

I'm a I've been in this at that point, was in the house. I felt that. I was at the tip of the spear of all that in migration, and I was really concerned about my children and my children's children having the opportunity to live and be raised in a in a beautiful area where we had so many natural resources and opportunities for hunting and fishing. And I could see us turning into New Jersey pretty quickly. And so what I'd I've authored I drafted, authored, and got passed.

Chip Kampson:

It took me two years to get it passed with the South Carolina Conservation Bank Act. And what the conservation bank does is it provides funding for land trust and and the state state agencies and local governments to fund conservation easements on a competitive grant basis. I really wanted to make it a competitive grant competitive grant process because I wanted to put a pricing mechanism into conservation to make it more competitive, and therefore, you make your conservation dollars go further. I looked at some states, and they had programs that basically, we wanna save this state. You fund all the money to save this.

Chip Kampson:

And I knew that that would that would produce little fruit actually because if you if the state is funding a 100% of every conservation project, you're not gonna have many conservation projects. And so the conservation bank, it established the pricing mechanism, competitive grant process, and the result is that we have we have protected almost 500,000 acres in South Carolina, most of it by conservation easements, but but that are funded and that are that are funded by the conservation bank in part. The conservation bank will never fund a 100% of a conservation project. On average, it's 15%. And you and but if you wanna be successful when you come to the conservation bank, you have to have leverage, meaning that we'll give you 15% of this project, but you better go get some value elsewhere, either the property owner donated another organization, Open Space Institute, The Nature Conservancy, The Land Trust in South Carolina.

Chip Kampson:

Often, they put funds find funds from other sources to put it in there. And that's how we make the conservation bank is seed money, and there needs to be other money, other conservation value brought to the table by others. And I I intentionally structured it that way because I wanted the money to go as far as it could with regards to conservation. And we've been very successful in that regard. Again, 500,000 acres, a little over $500 per acre, and that includes the fee simple acquisitions for for municipalities, state entities, county entities that are very expensive when you do that, when you pay full fee simple value.

Chip Kampson:

And so it's it's extremely effective. And what we've learned and it's and it's I like to say it's conservation from the bottom up, not the top down, because the conservation bank only funds projects that are that come to it. They do not They don't look at a map. The projects and say yes. And the land trust go out and seek the projects, and it's really reliant on the land trust network is really important.

Chip Kampson:

And and the result is the most significant lands in in South Carolina or the the most significant ecosystems, like the watersheds, for example. You look at what's happened over the last eighteen years is you've seen a these easements that are along watersheds and play and places that are good for wildlife habitat because a lot of these folks are hunters, and they just wanna they wanna save their land. They want their they don't want their land to turn into a shopping center. They want their kids to be able to hunt and fish on the same land that they own, and those lands typically are around watersheds and coastal areas and then up in the mountains and the Piedmont. And so you have some of the most not because we planned it this way, but we we thought, and it's we it's it's been realized that the prettiest places, the most significant place in South Carolina are gonna be eased by the choice of the landowners in those areas, not by the state.

Mike Brasher:

So I wanna also bring into this conversation Ed Penny, our director of public policy for the Southern Region. Ed, have we had you on on a podcast episode?

Ed Penny:

First time I've been on other podcasts, but is the first one.

Mike Brasher:

Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. You obviously work with senator Campson quite a bit on these import this and other important issues there in in South Carolina. From your perspective, I mean, so many of these legislative issues require a champion. Right? That's And so speak to your experience, what you've observed about Senator Kampson, weight that he has brought, how much of this relates to a person's passion for a certain issue versus their ability to be very convincing or those those things don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive, but what makes senator Campson so effective in in being a champion for this particular issue?

Ed Penny:

That's a great question. And senator Campson, I've gotten to know him over the last several years since I've gotten into this role at Ducks Unlimited, and he is one of the best champions we have in any state legislature around the country. In fact, senator Campson got our wetland conservation achievement award a few years ago. So, again, congratulations and thank you for for doing all the work that you get recognized for that award.

Chip Kampson:

Well, thank you for recognizing me.

Ed Penny:

But to answer your question, Mike, it's an innate conservation ethic that senator Kampson has that I share with him. We share a lot of the same values, and I think I realize that in him and I think he and he and me. But we have so many DU volunteers in South Carolina that that live in his district that have seen the work that the conservation bank has done and accomplished. So, you know, we're we're talking about senator Campson here, but he he will tell you that the work is the most important thing, and and that's why he works with Ducks Unlimited so closely. The the close relationship that we have with him.

Ed Penny:

And, you know, I'm proud to be proud to be a friend and colleague, and and we do rely on senator Camps and a lot of other folks in the general assembly in in South Carolina that that care care about the same things. And in fact, South Carolina is one of the best examples of land conservation, not just in the South, but around the country. And we've modeled a lot of other state funding mechanisms, programs on the conservation bank because it is durable. It's sustainable. It's got a lot of legislative support, and, you know, Ducks Unlimited is proud to be a part of

Mike Brasher:

that. And from your perspective, senator DeCampson, what is it that Ducks Unlimited brings to these issues, whether it be working directly with our staff, such as Ed or our volunteers, how do you how do you view that relation how do how important is the involvement of groups like Ducks Unlimited and others? We're not the only ones that are working in that space. It takes a lot of people that sort of coalesce around a common mission. How how important are those groups in achieving some of the important legislation that gets passed?

Chip Kampson:

They're very important. In fact, we have on the conservation bank board, we have Mike McShane who is He's one of

Mike Brasher:

our he's a senior volunteer of yep.

Chip Kampson:

And has been on several boards with d with DU. I've lost track, actually, and Charles Lane, the same. We have a lot of waterfowl hunters that are very active in in Ducks Unlimited. And we have a very special we have two very special coastal ecosystems that are important to to North American waterfowl, and that is the Santee Delta in Georgetown in in lower in Upper Charleston County, and also the Ace Basin. And we and we have we have protected those places in in a very significant way.

Chip Kampson:

And it's really been it's it it what one thing that's made it easier in South Carolina to protect we wanna protect property on an ecosystem scale. If you're just if you're just saving 50 acres in an area that otherwise is gonna be developed, you're not doing much for conservation. But if you can if you can if you can protect ecosystems, then you're really doing something, and that's really what we have done in South Carolina. And the Ace Basin and the Santee Delta are examples. One reason we had a leg up on other states, granted, is because we still had property left over from the plantation days.

Chip Kampson:

I mean, South Carolina didn't really recover from the from war from the civil war until arguably in the early nineteen fifties because you had Reconstruction, you had the Great Depression, you had no industry except for a couple of textile mills in South Carolina until, like, that started in the nineteen seventies or or sixties. And we still had partials of land at the old plantations that may you could you could do one easement and protect 3,000 acres or 5,000 acres. We just had one easement in South Carolina, the Conservation Bank Help Fund, 62,000 acres. It's a it's a world record.

Mike Brasher:

In that Ace Basin?

Chip Kampson:

Yes. In the Ace Bay well, it's on the edge of the Ace Basin. But but we we've had an advantage there because of that large hold holdings that were not gobbled up. They were gobbled up by wealthy industrialists and financiers like EF Hutton and the Spaulding family and the DuPonts. And and so but those properties were still intact, and we can save them at what thou at 5,000, 6,000.

Chip Kampson:

Actually, there won't be many 62,000 acre easements, but we do have one, and we're the it's the it's the largest easement in the entire country.

Mike Brasher:

I wanna talk a little more in a little bit more detail about the conservation bank and the the instruments that that are used to sort of achieve the outcomes that you've talked about, these easements. We've covered those on some previous podcasts from the standpoint of what are they. I mean, just briefly, there's legal instruments that run with the property. They prescribe certain limitations on what can be done on piece of property. The property remains in ownership by remains owned by the private property owner in that case.

Chip Kampson:

And can be transferred to other private property owners. Subject to the easement.

Mike Brasher:

Yes. And most of these in South South Carolina Conservation Bank, are they going to be perpetual easements?

Chip Kampson:

Yes. Okay. All of them.

Mike Brasher:

We don't do anything

Chip Kampson:

but perpetual easements.

Mike Brasher:

Those are all perpetual, and one of the most important aspects of this is they're entirely voluntary in order for people to come to that, right? Nobody's forcing these easements on anyone, and so I know you're a huge champion of private property rights.

Chip Kampson:

Absolutely.

Mike Brasher:

And there's some some ties here between easements and private property rights, and so just a few things there about what these easements are for people that may not have known them. Anything else to add on?

Chip Kampson:

Oh, there's a lot to add there. I mean, ease the the reason I structured the conservation bank to to to mainly operate with easements is because when it comes to private property owners, you can't tell them what kind of restriction to put on their land. They tell us what kind of restrictions they are willing to put on their land if we can give them some funding to fund that conservation easement.

Mike Brasher:

And if they don't like it, they'll say no. Thank you. If they don't like it,

Chip Kampson:

they say no. Thank you, and maybe we negotiate and find something where they do like. And but but no conservation easement on private land is or on public land. No easement is brought is is is placed on property until the property owner says, yes. I will do that.

Chip Kampson:

There's no condemnation. There's no pressure. There is sometimes some negotiation, like, maybe and and and the bank again relies on land trust because our grant goes to the land trust, and the land trust gives money to the to the property owner because but so the that forces the property owner to get to to hook up with a land trust of their choice and develop provisions of an easement and have that those provisions perfected because the land trust are regular. They know they they do a lot of easements, and so they they get with the property owner, help them develop the provisions of a of an easement, and then they bring it to the conservation bank board for funding. And sometimes there's a little bit of negotiation, but it works more smoothly because a land trust is there to to put in the provisions.

Chip Kampson:

They generally know what the conservation bank is looking at, and it makes it more effective. The bank doesn't have to draft these easements. The property owner who's never done an easement before doesn't draft. You have the cons you have the the land trust working with the property owner to put the provisions of the easement, and the and the land trust kinda know what the conservation bank is looking for and what what has been funded in the past, what hasn't been funded because they're constantly bringing properties before us before the conservation bank for funding. And to reiterate So it's totally pro property rights.

Chip Kampson:

Nothing happens if the property owner says, yeah, I'll do that to my property.

Mike Brasher:

And to reiterate a point you made earlier, the the funding from the South Carolina Conservation Bank covers only a small portion of of the easement cost. Right? So you're leveraging, as you said, that seed money to attract additional funding from other sources. Correct. And and some people may I've heard some people ask the question, well, do these easements are are they do we does the public have access to those easements?

Mike Brasher:

And the answer is no.

Chip Kampson:

Sometimes, no. Some some cases, they do. Do.

Mike Brasher:

Written in.

Chip Kampson:

And you get more funding if you do do that. Okay. Yes. And we we have a fair number of easements that have limited public access. Maybe it's a it might be a boat landing on a on a stretch of a river that doesn't have any boat landings nearby.

Chip Kampson:

They wanna do an easement, and the property wants to do an easement. And maybe they don't offer it up front, the conservation bank board will negotiate some with them and say, well, how about if you you allow public access for people, you know, to get in the river or that landing? And so that's just an example. Yeah.

Mike Brasher:

A lot of a lot of creative things that you can do with these

Chip Kampson:

easements. Yes. Yeah. It's not a one size fit all. There's probably not any no easement is exactly like the other easement because no property is exactly like every other property.

Mike Brasher:

I think one of the beautiful of the beauties of the example that this South Carolina Conservation Bank provides, the all the work that you've done there in the ACE Basin from a wildlife standpoint, which Ed and I will certainly appreciate is the when you accumulate and protect that land, so much land in such proximity, almost like the benefits to those wildlife populations begins to magnify because they're so close to you're building this network of protected lands, and that benefits a much larger area even beyond the property boundaries of those protected those protected properties.

Chip Kampson:

No question. I mean and so conservation easement begets conservation easement in the same area because landowners are reticent to put an easement on the property if they think there's gonna be a, you know, Walmart develop next to them in it. But once they realize this whole area, may maybe it's a river system, maybe it's maybe it's not, but often it is, this whole area is is is being eased, I may as well join in. But but if you if you you don't but if you property owners are concerned about putting an easement on a property, a smaller property, if others around them aren't gonna be protective of their property as well. So once you get some momentum in a particular area, you get a lot of easements that that property owners are willing to place on their land.

Mike Brasher:

Ed, I don't wanna take too much more of senator Kampson's time, but what other questions do we need to touch on here? I've got at least one final question. I'm not sure if Ed knows I'm gonna ask this. Maybe he does. But any what other questions do do we have here?

Ed Penny:

What does the ACE Basin stand for? What's what's the acronym there for

Mike Brasher:

our Is this a quiz?

Ed Penny:

For our podcast listeners.

Chip Kampson:

No. Spent my whole life in the Ace Basin. I know what it is. It's it's where the Ashupu, Cumbia, and Edisto Rivers come together to form a form a basin in Saint Helena Sound. And it's also where it's where probably most of the rice before the civil war was in the Yates Basin and some in the Santee Delta.

Chip Kampson:

But in South Carolina, that's where really most of the rice was was was grown. And so after the civil war, you had these these plantations with these large impoundments. I mean, thousands of acres of impoundment. I hunted hunted ducks in the Santee Delta opening day of the first season on an on a property that has 3,400 acres of impoundment on the Santee in the Santee Delta. And and that was it's amazing.

Chip Kampson:

That was all that was all built by slave labor. In fact, Neymore's plantation and Neymore's they're more than a plantation now. They're a they're a nonprofit organization for education, but they've done the they've done the work to conclude that, really, the rice fields along the South Carolina coast should be considered the ninth wonder of the world because because there was more material, substantially more. I can't remember the numbers right now. More material moved by slave labor to build those rice fields than the slave labor in Egypt to build the Pyramids.

Chip Kampson:

Significantly more, like a like a four or five time fold. And there's a great I mean, that's that's important. It's sad in a way. It's amazing, but it's amazing, and it's and it's really been a bit what makes the Ace Basin and the Santee Delta great waterfowl areas because of those impoundments that that that are very expensive to maintain.

Mike Brasher:

For

Chip Kampson:

sure. And so that's why a lot of property owners wanna do easements because when you have breaches in those in those impoundments, it can be very expensive.

Mike Brasher:

What should our listeners of this podcast do to support sound conservation policy at the state level? What's the type of thing that's most important to you and to what you and your colleagues are trying to accomplish and what we're trying to assist with? What's the role of our listeners in in supporting all those causes?

Chip Kampson:

Well, one of my favorite quotes when it comes to conservation is John Sawhill, who was the who was the the director of the the Nature Conservancy in the past and also president of NYU University. But he said he said a society defines itself not only by what it creates, but also by what it refuses to destroy. And I think it's very important that we refuse to destroy those natural areas that have such great history, are so important to wildlife and waterfowl, important to hunters, important to birders, to people who don't hunt, and important to fishermen. It's really important that we focus not just on what we create, but also more importantly, as we grow and we have more population movement into the Southeast, it's important to not destroy those places that we should preserve. And that's really that's really my goal.

Chip Kampson:

And we have when I first started on on the conservation bank when I years ago near when I was in the house, and it was it was I just got it passed by, like, two votes. Now today, because members of the general assembly see their experience in this massive in migration and massive growth, they almost, to a person, fall all over themselves. Where do I sign up? I wanna sign up. I wanna I wanna be supportive of the conservation bank.

Chip Kampson:

I wanna be supportive of preserving what makes South Carolina great in the first place. And because Charleston was the tip of the spear, I sensed it before others. It's not that I'm smarter. It's just that I sensed it because that's where the that's where the tip of the spear of most of the migration began. But now in every county, members are what's happening to my county?

Chip Kampson:

I can't even recognize it anymore. And so we have a mat so we have a lot of support for conservation now more than we ever had, and I think in years to come, it's gonna be even greater.

Mike Brasher:

That's that's really good to hear because the threats facing our natural resources are greater than they ever have been. You know, you walked in here talking about this new emerging issue that's affecting your district, and and so it's yeah. And it's not unique to your district. It's all over it's it's all over the country, and there's all these different issues that crop up every passing month, every passing year. The threats are as great as they ever have been.

Mike Brasher:

You've been in public service for how many years?

Chip Kampson:

Almost lost count. And for thirty years Thirty years. Between the house and the senate had a had a break between the two. But but it's also it's really important that people understand, and I think every state legislature ought to be this way. It's not a full time job.

Chip Kampson:

I would not do this if it were a full time job. I'm a lawyer. I've mainly run businesses my life. I've I've practiced some law too, and all through my service in the legislature, I was running businesses, practicing law, living under the same living under the laws that we pass. And you get better legislation when you have lawmakers who are living, working, operating businesses under the laws that they pass, and that's how South Carolina is.

Chip Kampson:

One of the biggest problems with with congress is congress ain't like that. Okay? You shut your you you sell your business, you shut down your law practice, and you go to con and you made a you made a leap to to congress, and you'll do anything you can to stay there. There's not what we need is people in the state legislatures who are half the time, it's like, why am I doing this? This is so frustrating.

Chip Kampson:

And the other half of the time is, man, I really made a difference forever, and this is really important. The you you wanna you wanna love hate relation. If you don't have a love hate relationship with the legislature, you probably shouldn't be serving. Either you either either you wanna be in just a politician or you just wanna be a businessman, But you can be both serving the state legislature. I'd like to I'd like to one other thing at the federal level when it comes to easements is I know that there's an effort emanating largely from the West, Western states to terminate or or limit to ten years perpetual easements that were previously placed on lands.

Chip Kampson:

Now as a as a champion of property rights and as a lawyer, I've done a lot of deal with a lot of issues dealing with property rights. That is a derogation of property rights because a property owner under under under property law, a property owner owns all the bundle of rights, and they can alienate some of those bundles of right. If they want to, when you put an easement on the piece of property, your your that property owner has willingly alienated those property rights, meaning put limits on what they can do with their property. And to come back after a property owner has Voluntary voluntarily

Mike Brasher:

willingly, knowingly done that.

Chip Kampson:

And say that that must be terminated, that is a derogation of the property rights. You you really don't believe that the property owner has the right to to put restraints on its property, put limits on its property in the in the course of you're really depriving them of a right to do that. And because the bundle of rights a property owner owns all the bundle of rights. And when you put an easement on the property, what you've done is you've given some of those rights to a land trust to enforce the restrictions under the land trust. But to come back around and and and terminate that is taking a position that a property owner does not have the right to make decisions about the use of its prop of their property while they own it.

Chip Kampson:

I've never that is I've never seen that anywhere in in property law because all those bundle of rights belong to the property owner. They can alien they can put an easement on it if they've not. And if if it's per if it's in perpetuity while they own that property, they have the right to do that. They have the right to sell it completely. Why can't they have the right forever?

Chip Kampson:

Why can't they have the right to put an easement on it forever? And so this thing and and I know it's being it's running under the mast of this is a property right issue. Yet it's a property right issue, but they're on the wrong side of it, those who wanna terminate permanent easements.

Mike Brasher:

Are you seeing any of that come to South Carolina yet?

Chip Kampson:

No. Because you know what? South Carolinas love easements because because of all the property we've saved from development.

Mike Brasher:

I know that's an issue that we're starting to hear about within Ducks Unlimited, and know our our policy staff, our leadership are aware of that, and and we're involved in some of those those conversations. So I'm sure it will be a topic we'll continue to hear about and certainly appreciate you being on the front lines of that and being a champion for the preservation of those perpetual easements and reflection of those being the right of the property owner to voluntarily willing willingly do that.

Chip Kampson:

And you and and if you if you think the property owner can't do that or shouldn't do that, shouldn't be permitted to do that, then you have you don't have due respect for property rights.

Mike Brasher:

So you're the attorney on that one. I'm not gonna argue with that that. I I would agree with you. Ed, what else do we need to cover here?

Ed Penny:

I I love the quote that you that you shared with us, and the conservation bank is is absolutely demonstrated that South Carolina refuses to destroy a lot of the habitat that they hold dear, and, know, that that's what drives us at Ducks Unlimited and our policy team is making sure that we have places for ducks to to live in, to breed, to migrate to, to winter because we all love them so much. And, you know, thank you for being on this podcast and thank you for all the work that you're doing in the general assembly.

Chip Kampson:

Well, thank you for your work. You you are a big help Thank you. Help when it comes to the work we do in the general assembly.

Mike Brasher:

Thank you for your service all these years. Thank you for being a champion of the things that as as Ed said are important to us and important to our members and many people beyond Ducks Unlimited and the people that just love ducks and geese and and and wetlands. The the work that you do benefits wild places and wild things well beyond just waterfowl. Final question, though, to end on ducks. What's your favorite duck?

Chip Kampson:

Oh, well, it'd have to be a black duck.

Mike Brasher:

Really? Yeah. Nice. East Coast, black duck.

Chip Kampson:

Very nice. Very wary. Yep. I mean I mean, I love shooting pintails. Yep.

Chip Kampson:

But and we have a lot of models now, but a black duck is is pretty wary. I mean, you kill a nice

Mike Brasher:

It's special.

Chip Kampson:

Yeah. It is a special.

Mike Brasher:

There are places in Atlantic Flyway where you can shoot a fair number of those consistently. Mhmm. But those once you get outside the Atlantic Flyway, people encounter a black duck. I mean, it's like the it's like a cinnamon teal to anybody outside of some of the Intermountain West. I shot a couple of black ducks a few weeks ago.

Mike Brasher:

It's the first time I had seen any in quite a number of years, and the exhilaration upon even just seeing them, but then and then being able to harvest a couple of them, I mean, was phenomenal. Yeah. So

Chip Kampson:

And I really I have a lot of opportunity to hunt impoundments, private impoundments. I own some, but I really enjoy what I enjoy the most is river hunting with my boys, and I don't mean sitting on a dike and shooting ducks coming into I'm talking about decoying birds into a spot where they have no intention of decoying into. And when you when and I get up in the morn you know, get out there at two in the morning, I mean, I still do that with them, and that means a lot more to me to kill a nice limit of puddle ducks in river hunting than it does in impoundments because it's a lot easier in the impoundments. And I'm doing it with my and people say, why are you doing it? You're way too old to do that.

Chip Kampson:

I said, hey. I'm doing this with my boys. I mean, I'm you know, what what would I rather be doing that morning than be with my boys out there, decoying ducks, calling them in in places they don't need to come, and we and we kill a limited puddle ducks. We've really done something then. They're they're really good hunters.

Mike Brasher:

State senator Chip Campson, South Carolina District 43, Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for everything.

Ed Penny:

Thank you. And thank you.

VO:

Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan and Bird Dog Whiskey. After these messages.

Mike Brasher:

We're gonna transition here to our next segment. We have another guest in here joining us to provide an additional perspective on the important role of state legislatures and some of the decisions that occur at that level, how it influences the things that we as outdoors men and women enjoy and and cherish. Joining me for this little part of the discussion is mister James Cummins, the executive director of Wildlife Mississippi. James, great to sit down with you. We've traded a few emails.

Mike Brasher:

It's first chance we've had to to talk at length.

James Cummins:

It's certainly a pleasure to be here, Mike. Looking forward to it.

Mike Brasher:

So to begin with, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. I will we'll kinda tease what we're gonna talk about here in a little bit. We're gonna talk about sort of the social license to hunt and fish. We're gonna talk about constitutional amendments to hunt and fish. We're gonna talk about some sort of dedicated state funding for conservation.

Mike Brasher:

You've had a role and and have some thoughts on each of those issues, so that's what we're gonna be talking with you about. But to set this up, tell people a little bit about yourself and the wealth of experience that you bring to this discussion.

James Cummins:

Sure. Great. Well, thank you, Mike. I I I was born and raised in Greenville, Mississippi on the Mississippi River in the in the heart of the Mississippi Delta and ended up going to to school and to to Mississippi State and majoring in in fisheries and wildlife and then went on to Virginia Tech for a master's and, you know, really fell in love. I kinda grew up different than most people.

James Cummins:

My my mother's brother was Jack Herring, the executive director of our state department of wildlife fisheries and parks. And, my my grandfathers were both landowners around Winona, Mississippi, and I'm fortunate to actually still still be, the owner of one of those farms. It's been in our family continuously since 1833. So kinda have somewhat on the fish and wildlife conservation side, but also really put a lot of emphasis on the private landowner side, and I'm fortunate to be be able to be one myself.

Mike Brasher:

And you are associated with several conservation groups, Boone and Crockett being one of those. People that may have an interest in that group, may know what it is. Tell us a little bit about your involvement there.

James Cummins:

Sure. So, I recently stepped down or finished serving my my two year term as president of the Boone and Crockett club, and it's North America's oldest wildlife conservation conservation organization. Organization. It was founded in 1887. In fact, 1887, not too far from now.

James Cummins:

It really Roosevelt was out west in Madora, North Dakota and and and really felt, he what he saw out there was really a decimation of wildlife. And he he telegraphed he was getting ready to come home and telegraphed his sister, and he said, I want you to to bring together about a dozen of my close friends, George Burgrenell and others. And they met for a black tie dinner at his house, and he rolled in on the train and talked about all of that. And that and in that night, they they in New York City in 1887, in in early December, they formed the club. And it really is what set aside and and created our national park system, our national wildlife refuge system, our our national forest system.

James Cummins:

In fact, the club's first effort was the protection of Yellowstone National Park. And and, many of you may know Lamar Valley. We're we're here in Memphis, Tennessee, not too far from Lamar Avenue, of what LQC Lamar, which is one of the senators from Mississippi, was was part worked with the club and and really protected Yellowstone, and Lamar Valley is named after him. But that legislation also set aside the first 36,000,000 acres of national forest. So that's a little bit about how the some of the early efforts of the club.

James Cummins:

But then we went on and worked towards setting up our our system of state wildlife management efforts, state game laws. And then later on is is is us and Ducks Unlimited certainly love, and that's a system of private land conservation. And then really after that, was more of a system of ethical hunting.

Mike Brasher:

Yeah. And and so Boone and Crockett has done way more than just score big game.

James Cummins:

You know, scoring big game is really what we're known for

Chip Kampson:

Yeah.

James Cummins:

But it's not what I have the passion about. I'm fortunate to have two two caribou in the record book. I've enjoyed enjoyed hunting those. But to me, the club my to me, the the club's biggest trophy is is the conservation system that we have in North America.

Mike Brasher:

We are here still at the National Assembly of Sportsman's Caucuses, the summit annual summit. You are on the board of the Congressional Sportsman's Foundation along with Ducks Unlimited CEO, Adam Putnam. Talk about your role and and and your view of the importance of those groups.

James Cummins:

So it's really yeah. And I've been very fortunate to to be involved with CSF, with the club, and and have such a great partnership with Ducks Unlimited. And I can tell you, you have a wonderful leader at Adam Putnam. He he he he comes from a member of congress. He served on the ag committee.

James Cummins:

He understands agriculture. He understands conservation. And to me, he's really one of the the premier thought leaders in terms of CSF and and really helps us steer steer us in in making sure that we're we're targeting the right things from a federal policy level. And he does that because he understands how congress works, and that's so valuable to have him on the board.

Mike Brasher:

And the the value of CSF to our state legislators to why should why should the average sportsman, sportswoman, hunter, angler care about this group? I mean, this is the first time I've associated with it, first time I've attended the summit. I'm learning a lot. I'm seeing things that I that I haven't before. From your standpoint, why is this group so important?

Mike Brasher:

What's the what's how is it a difference maker?

James Cummins:

So it's it's probably the most powerful group in Washington and in state legislatures that you've never heard of. Yeah. So so what what I really enjoy and what caused me to really fall in love with CSF and and wanna be a big part of of the organization is at the federal level, it represents the largest caucus in the US congress. We have a bipartisan Democrats, Republicans, house senate. So it's bipartisan.

James Cummins:

It's bicameral. And we represent the most members of any caucus in the US congress, and they all care about hunting, fishing, and sportsmen and women's issues. And so to me, that's what I really was fell in love with it in terms of why I wanted to be a part of it. But it's not just at at at the federal level. It's like we're here today.

James Cummins:

They have caucuses, and supporting organizations in each of our states. And and and, also, there's a there's a con a a governor's caucus as well. So you have you know, we're we're we're working with different governors and trying to help them establish policies that are good for sportsmen and women.

Mike Brasher:

So I'm actually learning a few additional tidbits here as we talk. So the Congressional Sportsman's Foundation is actually made up of legislators at both the state level and federal level. That is correct. K. And so I think I saw this morning, there's some 2,200 members at the state level.

Mike Brasher:

Is that right?

James Cummins:

At the state level. It's over 2,200 members. And the caucus that we're here today is the largest amount of state legislatures ever at a National Assembly of Sportsman's Caucuses, so it's growing every year. And that's really if you really look at at it, we do so much, you know, whether it's it's us and Ducks Unlimited and working in partnership, so much at the federal level, but that's a lot about habitat. And when you look at at at hunting and fishing and the rules and regulations around those, that is a lot more at the state level.

James Cummins:

So that's why it's so important that that we're working with state legislatures, because they their their fingers or their thumbs, so to speak, are on each of their wildlife commissions, that that have a big role in what we do every day and and and and how we enjoy the outdoors.

Mike Brasher:

And this is, of course, the Ducks Unlimited podcast, and migratory waterfowl are our bread and butter. But the issues that are discussed here the issues that are discussed here that and are important to this group, waterfowl, waterfowl habitat is just one small part of that, and I think that's really important. I want our listeners to kinda see that as a different part of this conversation because typically, we're just talking about waterfowl. But the issues that we're gonna discuss today relate to all of your hunting and fishing opportunities that you have in your state and in your neighboring state, whether you're talking about squirrel, rabbit, white tailed deer, mule deer, elk, mountain lions, you name it, black bears. All of those things are affected by decisions made by many of the people that are represented here in this caucus.

Mike Brasher:

Right?

James Cummins:

Absolutely. These these decisions stretch far and wide. You know, we obviously have four flyaways that we all care about from a standpoint of migratory birds, But but the caucuses represented here today, represent the entire United States, and and they're so powerful and so concerned. And it's so exciting to see so many state legislatures or, excuse me, legislators gather and have an interest in what we all care about.

Mike Brasher:

There is a document that was referenced in one of the discussions this morning, over 300 pages describing more than 100 issues that have been identified by state legislators across The US that are viewed as either opportunities or threats to the things that we love as sportsmen and and women, and and I was I I did a quick perusing of of that table of contents, I was blown away at the diversity of issues, the outlandish nature of some of those issues that are described.

James Cummins:

Aren't they?

Mike Brasher:

And I was like but then you pause and you realize this group is representing has people that are that are trying to address all of those issues or one one of those issues or another. And it's the there are real threats to the things that we love and that we hold near and dear as sportsmen and women, hunters, anglers, trappers. Right?

James Cummins:

Absolutely. And if you look at at what happened, you know, little little less than a year ago in Colorado with proposition one twenty seven and the real threat, and you may say, well, why are we caring about mountain lion here in the Lower Mississippi River Valley or or waterfowl? Because if we lost that, that would have really empowered the opposition to go after hunting in each of these states, and and we would spend a lot more than what we spent fighting that one particular proposition in Colorado.

Mike Brasher:

Death by a thousand cuts is a theme, is a phrase that holds true in so many different aspects of, like, wildlife ecology and wildlife management, but

James Cummins:

it certainly holds true also in our in our the opportunities that we have for hunting and fishing. Right? A 100%. A 100%. So and we've gotta just we've gotta do a lot more in terms of working with our legislators, in terms of increasing those opportunities.

James Cummins:

And it's a lot like football. We we have to be you know, sometimes we're on offense, sometimes we're on defense.

Mike Brasher:

That's right. That's right. So this is a good transition to one of the issues that I wanted to talk to you about, and you referenced it in some of your remarks this morning in one of the plenary sessions, and it's this idea of the importance of a social license to hunt and fish and trap and do those other things that we'd love to do. We've we haven't talked about it yet on the Ducks Unlimited podcast, but I know other people have heard about it in in other countries, Australia being a great example, there is a very real threat to duck hunting in in that country, and it's not too hard to imagine how well, there are people that would like to see those type of things brought to this country. Now, there are a lot of things that are preventing that from happening.

Mike Brasher:

One of those is maintaining social support for our ability to do these things, a social license to hunt. Talk about that for people that haven't heard about it. What is it? Why is it important? What's our role as hunters, anglers, trappers, in in helping to maintain that social license?

James Cummins:

You know, somebody said after the the the talk this morning, they said, well, I'm not really sure what you mean. You know, in Vermont or in Mississippi, we have, you know, we have we have it in in our constitution, a constitutional right to hunt and fish. And I just said, would it say how many days you get to hunt and fish? And they just kinda paused there and said, I think I get what you made. And and so by by having a social license and and having it where the you know, if I look at the the number of people that hunt in this country, that's around 4%.

James Cummins:

96% of the people do not do what we enjoy doing every day. So trying to take that 4% and making sure that we have at least you know, if if I'm a if I'm in the you know, I'm not I'm from Mississippi. I'm not real smart, but I can count to 51. So I wanna have 51% of the people all the time that are supported. In reality, I really want a lot more than that.

James Cummins:

So my point of saying that is that social license, we need to have the majority of the population out there that understands what we're doing because we do a what hunting and fishing is, it's a lot more than about killing. That's the least important.

Mike Brasher:

Yep.

James Cummins:

It's about the experience. It's about enjoying, you know, duck breast on a grill wrapped in bacon and cream cheese. It's you know, having a fine meal and really, you know, healthy food from our harvest and and enjoying that experience and taking others in and enjoying the environment and and improving the environment. I mean, if we're out there improving habitat, we're putting in a water control structure, building levees, you know, encouraging more soil, to to really benefit waterfowl and migratory birds, we're doing a lot more than the little bit of of of migratory birds we're taking during duck season.

Mike Brasher:

So what about our behavior, how we behave as hunters and anglers? How is that important? And we're a different time with social media giving us the opportunity to show so many things, good and bad. Where does that weigh in your mind on when you think about the risk to our social license to hunt and fish?

James Cummins:

You know, when I think our behavior is is probably the most important thing. And and and this morning, I referenced, one of Mississippi's greatest writers and one of my favorite writers, and that was William Faulkner. And not too far south of here, you know, in nineteen o nine, he killed his first white tailed buck. And and after that, he was asked, what you know, he said, mister Faulkner, why do you why do you hunt? And he said, and I quote, always to learn something, not only to pursue but or to overtake and then to have compassion not to destroy.

James Cummins:

But he also talked about the pursuit was the thing, not the reward and not the gain. And so how he conducted himself, is really resonated with people. And this is a this is a Nobel Prize winning, you know, author. But he showed he had compassion for wildlife. He didn't ride around Oxford, Mississippi with white tailed deer strapped on the hood of his vehicle.

James Cummins:

He didn't show off or show disrespect to an animal like some people do today. He showed respect for the habitat. He showed respect for the hunt, and he showed respect for the animal. And I think that's what we've gotta do today, and we've gotta be do a better job of of of being the kind of neighbor you that these that the rest of the citizens in this country wanna have as their neighbor.

Mike Brasher:

And I don't think either either you or I would would wanna be the one to to beat our fellow hunters and anglers upside the head and shoulders and say, you thou shalt not be doing that, but what we wanna do is help them understand the importance of the way we portray ourselves, because other people are looking at that, other people that don't share our values, that don't share the love for these things that we do. And and sometimes we we just we have to be aware of that. We have to not give other people ammunition to use against us, so to speak.

James Cummins:

That's exactly right. And I think all too often, we do give other people ammunition to use against us, And sometimes we're our own worst enemy. Yeah. And we've gotta be respectful of of the minds and thoughts of others and how they portray us. And and because I think at the end of the day, if they respect us and they see that we're truly we're we're concerned about that animal and how it's portrayed and how we're taking care of habitat, you know, if I look at it and I'm not knocking people that bird watch, but I don't see people buying a lot of land to go watch animals compared to what duck hunters buy in terms of restoring and protecting wetlands.

Mike Brasher:

You know, as you were talking this morning, I was making a number of notes kinda thinking through this in terms of why it's important to maintain this support for the social license. It's because it allows us to do what we love to do, but it goes well beyond that. It also relates to the the the fact that hunters, anglers, trappers, consumptive users of the resource have had an outsized influence on conservation funding. That conservation funding helps preserve and enhance the natural resources that are remaining. Those natural resources provide benefits not just to wildlife, but they provide benefits to other people, and they provide sort of nature based solutions for a lot of the problems that we're facing as as a country or as as a population.

Mike Brasher:

So it's more that's our challenge is to is to describe why this is important for more than just our inherent love of that. Right?

James Cummins:

Absolutely. And and I think we can do a better job than we're doing today. If I look at conservation funding, when Ronald Reagan was president, we spent 4% of the federal budget on all natural resource spending. At the end of when president Biden, is in office was in January, we spent point 7% of the federal budget. So as a percentage of federal budget, we're declining.

James Cummins:

We're not increasing. And you mentioned natural solutions or you know? And and if I look at our government talking a lot more about efficiency and and how can we do a better job of, preventing a a forest fire by thinning and improving habitat for wildlife or elk or or deer, and at the same time improving that drinking watershed. Or if we're restoring a wetland and that's filtering out pollutants before they flow into the Mississippi and then eventually into the Gulf where we get a lot of our seafood from, that's a lot more of an efficient use. Or if we're if we're taking agricultural land that doesn't make good soybean or or corn land here in the Lower Mississippi Valley, where the government has been paying out a lot of crop insurance and disaster assistance and the farmer is losing money, and we're taking and restoring that back into waterfowl habitat, and all of a sudden, the taxpayer is now saving dollars, that to me is the type of efficiency we need to be looking

Mike Brasher:

at. That math works.

James Cummins:

That math works. I can do that math. James It's not calculus.

Mike Brasher:

James, you and I have a ton of conversations, ton of topics that we could cover. I wanna go back a little bit to this, to the role of state legislators in in preserving our opportunities to hunt and fish and and trap. And and we mentioned the social license to do that is a very important part and probably the most important part because as you said, we can we can have a constitutional amendment that that preserves that right, but it has to be very, very specific, right, if if we wanted to if we wanna keep everything that we have right now. And but with that said, there still is a role for that, and maybe that's more the hand to hand combat aspect of this, trying to get some of these that that the state legislators play in trying to get certain certain things passed through the state house, constitutional amendments. They they play a role in that.

Mike Brasher:

Right? Absolutely. And and so talk about some of the states that have that have taken that step. Mississippi, I believe, is is one of those. What has been your role?

Mike Brasher:

What's what's the role of the legislators in, in moving those things forward?

James Cummins:

So so you have a number of states. Mississippi certainly was one that did pass a constitutional right to hunt and fish. And I was very pleased that when it passed, in Mississippi, it passed with an overwhelming amount of support of 87% of the voters, wanting to see that in in, you know, in in our constitution. So extremely important in our legislatures, which which we have that constitutional right, they're taking that, and they're also developing laws. They're developing programs.

James Cummins:

We've, for example, have had the the great fortune of being able to work with Ducks Unlimited in Mississippi to create an outdoor stewardship trust fund. Ed Penney, the head of our public policy, group for DU, in the Southern Region, has really led that charge in Mississippi to create that particular fund. And and what that does is is is us and and Ducks Unlimited went to our legislature and said, look. We're a relatively poor state. We don't have a lot of funds at the state level or at the private level to go after and match federal funds, and there's a lot of federal funds.

James Cummins:

So especially on the wetland and migratory bird side. So we were able to to put that particular program together. And so far, it's funded around a total of $80,000,000 worth of projects just in Mississippi alone. It all started because of an idea that that DU and a number of others had, of we're loo we're losing dollars because we don't have a source of state matching funds.

Mike Brasher:

Though that's that's one of the biggest issues that we that many well, every state faces, like reliable funding for state agencies, reliable funding to take advantage of conservation habitat conservation opportunities. Those are things that happen at the state house, at the at the individual states. It's one of the very important roles that these decision makers play. That's one of the things that I know a lot of these folks that are here at this summit talk about. This forum is a great opportunity for those legislators whose states are exploring that idea.

Mike Brasher:

It's a this is a place where they can learn from those who have been there before, who can share those experiences. This is what you need to look out for. This is what you can can help you be successful. These are some of the pitfalls. Right?

Mike Brasher:

Absolutely.

James Cummins:

And that's one of the things that this conference is really pulling together is is not only professionals, but members of the state legislatures. And and bringing those two entities together, and they're exchanging ideas. What happened in in Delaware? What could we do how could we take that idea and implement it in Arkansas or whatever the states may be and really learn from each other about good types of legislation, good ways to get those passed? What did we learn from that?

James Cummins:

What were things that we did that we shouldn't have done in trying to get that passed? So so this type of forum and an exchange of ideas is extremely valuable in benefiting sportsmen and women in the issues we care about.

Mike Brasher:

You mentioned that you worked with Ed Penney and other Ducks Unlimited staff on on the Mississippi Outdoor Stewardship Trust Fund. In your many years of experience, how what do you how do you view the role and importance of Ducks Unlimited, whether it be our staff or our volunteers, and we can even extend this beyond Ducks Unlimited, but we can use DU as an example. What's the importance of those NGOs, their staff, their volunteers in helping achieve positive outcomes at state and in state legislatures.

James Cummins:

So if I if I think if if I think back around the Dust Bowl and when Ducks Unlimited was created, and if I think, what would this world be like if DE weren't here? I'd hate to know how little wetlands we would have in this nation and how little waterfowl habitat because I don't believe we'd be duck hunting very much if it wasn't for Ducks Unlimited. And I mean that. I'm not just saying that because I'm sitting here with you. If I look at the the amount of habitat that y'all put on the ground since since you were formed, is truly incredible.

James Cummins:

And that happened because of the private sector, and that happened because duck hunters and people concerned about waterfowl joined together to form Ducks Unlimited and put their money where their mouth is and fund wetland and waterfowl conservation.

Mike Brasher:

What do our people bring to to the state houses in modern day? Acknowledging everything that you said and sort of the collective effort through the years in making meaningful change on the landscape to benefit ducks and duck hunters and everybody else that loves those and those places. But I guess I'm asking a question of wanting people to see how folks like Ed and our volunteers, our volunteers at the local level, our volunteers at the senior level, What's been your interaction with them? What's the value that you've seen, that we bring to those discussions?

James Cummins:

I think they bring several things. I think they bring a level of expertise and professionalism in knowing what do we need to do from a policy perspective in legislation to improve wetlands and waterfowl conservation. But I'll say this. It is not just about waterfowl and wetlands. He looks at everything.

James Cummins:

And because just because I'm a member of of Ducks Unlimited, it doesn't mean I don't deer hunt or doesn't mean I don't squirrel or rabbit hunt. But that's certainly you know, ducks and waterfowl are your expertise. So bringing that level of expertise and understanding what happens in other states, and he sees a lot of that by being over the over the Southern region. So that's one thing is is is science and professional expertise. And from a standpoint of your volunteers, your volunteers are you know, they're out there they're out there in the states.

James Cummins:

There's they know members of the legislature. They know members of congress. They're supporting their campaigns. They're friends with them. They go to church with them.

James Cummins:

They go to softball games with them. And so having that access to those in those decision makers and being able it's it's not just knowing, you know, what we need to do, but it's being able to get it get in and being able to convince. And I don't mean convince in a bad way, but being able to educate that particular decision maker on what something what's why something is needed and how that could benefit his or her constituents, I think, is so important. And that's where I think your volunteers excel. You know, we're in

Mike Brasher:

a world of of accelerating technology, and I think it's easy for people to to to think that technology is gonna make all the decisions and provide all the answers. At the end of the day, the decisions are made by people. And so one of the and those are the state legislators, the low local, state, county, and federal, those are all decision makers. Those are all people. And so what you just described there in terms of the role of our volunteers, they're they're the neighbors of those decision makers, they're the fellow church members of those decision makers, they're the softball teammates, they're the parents of kids on a basketball team, and at the root of all that are personal relationships, and that comes with trust, and so that's also where some of that influence and where some of that influence and some of the impact that we as volunteers can have is through building those relationships with the people that make the decisions that affect us.

Mike Brasher:

Absolutely.

James Cummins:

And if I look at the national level and I look at at at your leader, Adam Putnam, when people are concerned about conservation easements, they look at him as as an expert on that. But just like what you said, they trust him because they know he's been where they've sat Yeah. In the past as a member of the of the US congress. And he's gonna give them good advice, and he's gonna give them trusted advice that they will follow and believe, and we end up with something very good at the end of the day because of that.

Mike Brasher:

And that kinda in some way comes full circle to what we started talking about with the way we as hunters, anglers, trappers portray ourselves and portray our respect for the resource. Although we may not have personal relationships with all the people that are watching us and seeing us on our social media pages and so forth, at least we're presenting a good image, and we're showing respect. And so they feel that they develop some trust of us. So there's even a role for for it to to emerge in that sense too, don't you think?

James Cummins:

Absolutely. And I think we've gotta continue to project respect and trust because, again, we're 4% of the population that hunt. And and if we don't project that, shame on us. We're not gonna be in a good shape because of it.

Mike Brasher:

I have another question here, and then we'll start to wrap up. And you mentioned this a few moments ago and from Boone and Crockett, the the it's from its history as well as a lot of the work that happens here in more recent time, the importance of working on private land and the role, the important role of private landowners in delivering conservation today. We can't do it on state and federal property alone. We can't support our populations of wildlife and fish. Whether we're talking resident species such as wild turkeys, white tailed deer, elk, or waterfowl.

Mike Brasher:

You can't do that on state and federal property alone. Why is why is what why is the why is the private landowners so important in today's age?

James Cummins:

So so if I just the majority of America is not public or federal or state land. The majority of our acreage here in The United States is owned by that private landowner. If I look at endangered species, for example, 90% of endangered species live on private land. Not public land, private land. And so it's so important if if we're looking at if I if I'm a particular waterfowl or if I'm an elk or a deer, I don't read, you know, landowner science.

James Cummins:

I don't read this is posted.

Mike Brasher:

At least we hadn't figured it out

James Cummins:

yet. If they have, I don't I'm not aware of that anyway. So when when that bird leaves, you know, Canada and flies toward the Gulf Of Mexico to to toward the, you know, toward their wintering grounds, you know, sometimes they're on government or public land and some but but a lot of times they're on private land. And that's where I really started my relationship with Ducks Unlimited is working on the farm bill. The wetland reserve easement, I mean, we're so excited here in the Lower Mississippi Valley.

James Cummins:

We're we've got a big announcement coming up this this spring. We just hit 1,000,000 acres of restored and protected wetlands just in the Lower Mississippi Valley alone. That's a $4,000,000,000 investment. But if I look at it from a cost efficiency standpoint, we saved or avoided spending $3,000,000,000 in crop insurance and disaster assistance. So so not only are private lands important, but they're extremely efficient way to do business and provide habitat.

James Cummins:

So, you know, whether it's a conservation reserve, you know, whether that's providing wintering grounds up here or protecting our breeding grounds in the Prairie Pothole region that you guys just excel at, Private lands are just really the key to to to wildlife conservation or the future of wildlife conservation in the in The United States. And I really think, you know, the tax code is our really next, place that we need to be working in tradable tax credits for conservation. There's not been a lot of innovation in the last forty years in conservation funding, and I I think that's something, I mean, I you know, the, you know, the last speaker in the last segment talked about conservation banking, and that kinda that that kinda innovation is what we need to be thinking about for the next twenty and thirty years in wildlife conservation.

Mike Brasher:

Absolutely. I have a fun question here for you, then I'm gonna conclude with one one final one, an opportunity for you to share some thoughts with our audience. What's your favorite duck?

James Cummins:

My favorite duck is a wood duck. It's the prettiest duck in my opinion. And and I remember as a as a kid, I was 13 years old, I guess, hunting, just off the Big Black River on on my grandfather's place, and we had about a 13 acre slew that was actually a former cotton field forty years before that. And I love leaning up next to a cypress tree. And as as the sun would start to go down a little bit, still still legal shooting hours, but love to watch those those whistling ducks come in and and and be able to take some wood ducks.

James Cummins:

And I also love putting up wood duck boxes to help propagate them too.

Mike Brasher:

Now you said whistling ducks.

James Cummins:

You're not talking of the right. Not a no. The whistling of the wing.

Mike Brasher:

I have to make that correction or that that clarification now.

James Cummins:

Right? They're I I am familiar with the whistling ducks. Yeah. So but the whistling of their wings.

Mike Brasher:

Yeah. I I people that have listened to episodes before would probably know that I have on occasion said, yeah, the wood duck is my favorite species as well. It took me a while to get there, but I finally realized, I mean, it it checked so many of the boxes, especially for southern hunters. It's resident it it it it's our it's our resident reader. It is the most one of, if not the most beautiful duck out there.

Mike Brasher:

I think so. There's so much about their pairing and courtship and the affection that those that that you tend to see with wood ducks seemingly more than than others. That's pretty cool, and they are darn good table fare.

James Cummins:

Oh my goodness.

Mike Brasher:

And consistent also.

James Cummins:

You're good as teal. That would be the second best idea.

Mike Brasher:

Okay. Final question here. You've got an audience with the Ducks Unlimited podcast audience here. What's a message that you would want to leave them with with regard to the importance of their contributions to preserving our hunting, fishing, trapping heritage?

James Cummins:

If I look at what their contribution is is probably multiple fold. One is certainly financial, and I would encourage them to continue supporting this great organization that helps with waterfowl and wetland conservation. We got a tax code that's gonna be changing a little bit in 2026, and that's gonna mean we we're gonna need some additional financial resources in the nonprofit world. And and DU is a very when you give a dollar to Ducks Unlimited, a large portion of that dollar goes on the ground and turns into Habitat. So I would certainly encourage those listeners, to continue supporting the organization and to support at a greater level that they currently are.

James Cummins:

And then I would also encourage them to to to use their voice and speak up, for wetland and for wetland conservation. You know, many times, if if I look at where we at in the nation, we may be declining on the regulatory side in terms of protecting wetlands. So we need to be putting more emphasis on the incentive side to make sure that those wetlands are protected, and that comes with additional dollars, and that comes with additional needs of congress of of and they but they've gotta hear from their constituents that that this is something so important that we need to be setting aside additional dollars. And I think we've already demonstrated how how cost efficient wetland conservation is.

Mike Brasher:

James Cummins, executive director, Wildlife Mississippi, Fabulous conversation, incredibly knowledgeable, tremendous, experience that you that you have and bring to this. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for everything that you've done for conservation, not just waterfowl, but the entire wildlife fish conservation, throughout your years of service. Thank you.

James Cummins:

Thank you very much. Thanks for the opportunity.

Mike Brasher:

A very special thanks to all the guests that we've had on this episode. Senator Chip Campson from South Carolina, Ed Penny, our director of policy for the Southern Region, and James Cummins, the executive director of Wildlife Mississippi. We appreciate them sharing their expertise and helping us understand why these state legislative issues are so important to us. We also thank our producer of the podcast, Chris Isaac, who does a great job getting all this information out to you. And, of course, the listener, we thank you for your support of the podcast, and we thank you for supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation and all the legislation and policies that allow us to do what we love to do.

Mike Brasher:

Have a great day, y'all.

VO:

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VO:

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