Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to the 'Lead Smarter. Not Harder' Podcast by David Kent, your window into the minds of visionary leaders, trailblazing innovators, and savvy business owners.
Get ready to immerse yourself in the captivating stories and invaluable lessons from the best and brightest minds in the business.
Hey, Margaret, thank you for joining me again.
It's been great chatting with you.
I've really enjoyed getting to know you and having multiple chances to get to talk to you
up till now and learn about what you do in the industry for the legal industry.
And in that vein, I actually wanted to congratulate you on the awards you've recently won.
I think it's reader rankings that you'd won both Massachusetts Legal Community Top Choice
for uh Management Consulting and Project Management.
Congratulations on that.
Personally had a chance to watch you guys communicate that out into socials and things
like that.
So that's very exciting Just wanted to congratulate you on that by the way
you.
Thank you very much.
We're thrilled.
Yeah, well, and in that vein, what you do, I've also had a chance to follow the things
that you do in the industry, the leadership advice that you give and the influence you
provide to help uh law firms grow.
And in that vein, I wanted to chat with you about how you are specifically helping uh the
legal industry.
um My understanding is given that the law, like the legal industry itself, how do you
guide firms through?
the resistance of change and trying to grow themselves to be more efficient, especially
when the culture is so risk averse inside the legal industry.
That's literally what they're trying to do is reduce risk, right?
Right.
First of all, I can tell you work with attorneys because if that is like, I don't want to
ever stereotype a group of folks, but I think as a profession, they're trained in law
school to look for the mistakes and to avoid them.
So it makes sense.
And you're correct that law firms may struggle more than other industries to implement
change.
um
My background is I've worked in firms and now I work with firms.
So there's a difference.
So currently we work with firms where they engage us because they want change.
It doesn't mean that it happens right away, but we're working with folks that actually
decided to move forward with change and want some support in doing that.
So what we do, what I find very helpful is presenting the pros and cons of different
decisions, sharing like what we've seen other firms have success with and other firms that
may have discovered they could have done it differently.
And we share stories and examples without names.
We present the pros and cons.
And then that really approach helps firms make decisions because they want the facts, they
want the details, they want to know what's worked for others in the industry.
And that is really the approach that we take with our clients.
That's great.
And I know I saw also that you do things like you implement um systems and operational
like efficiencies and practices that will make them more efficient.
And obviously from the outside, I understand very little about the full legal industry,
but I know that I understand like they're billing by the hour.
Typically it's a pretty like common standard that you that you can do retainers or billing
by the hour.
um What are some of the efficiencies that you see that they're
that they're benefiting from the most that they're coming to you about.
And then where do you see like they're being like running into a resistance?
maybe they're uh used to billing by the hour and this change is going to impact their
organization overall because you're typically you're making the entire like business more
efficient or are you like guiding them on how to position their services and their billing
differently and then making them overall more efficient?
Is it like
one item you're changing or are you changing from like the organization top down?
So it's almost yes to everything you just said.
I want to make sure I capture my response to each point.
So in the beginning, I think you initially asked, what are some of the systems that you
typically see firms need support with?
There's a few that almost always come up.
It is billing.
And that includes everything from
The beginning where people are entering time or not entering time, which is something that
is addressed.
Tracking time, not self-editing, which is a term when someone feels uh an associate or an
attorney might look at their own time and feel like, that was too much.
And they reduce their own time without running it by other people.
We focus on the time entry.
through the process of making sure that everyone's time is in so that bills can go out on
time?
And then what does that process look like?
So that tends to be one of the most robust processes that we get involved in.
And that is such an important one because it's client service focused.
Clients like to receive bills timely and accurate.
um It impacts the bottom line really quickly.
And it also involves sometimes change in the culture of a firm.
A lot of new firms, newer start with, it's a family environment.
They may view it as we're not going to have a lot of systems.
This is what makes us different.
And then they discover, oops, we actually do need some systems because we could be more
profitable.
So um time and billing is probably one of the number one SOPs that a lot of our clients do
want help with.
um And that actually comes up often when they don't even come to us with that need.
They have other needs, but that comes out.
I would say client onboarding and offboarding, like the process that goes into the
engagement letter, how the first call is managed through the closing of the engagement,
that is another SOP that comes up often.
And then the third is...
new employee onboarding.
So although it doesn't sound exciting, it actually comes up with many of our clients
because most or all of our clients like really value their teams.
And they want to make sure that when they do identify the right person to join their firm,
that they have a great experience and they're ready to hit the ground running.
So we find that that is an SOP that we end up helping our clients with.
can have a really big impact.
That's great.
It's interesting to hear you describe it.
I run my own business.
I talked to lots of people that own their own businesses as well, not in the legal
industry, but to hear some of the similarities that they deal with, that they are like
trying to build a culture that, well, I guess maybe in some situations that starts like as
a family, but then has to expand beyond, you know, just the things that they can do
themselves, which means they're going to have to grow their own understanding and they're
going to be more flexible and try to take in things that make them more scalable.
Also, I'm assuming trying to hold on to what feels like a very warm welcoming culture that
people want to be a part of.
Yeah, it is a really common situation that happens in law firms where it is a family.
It's not a family, but it feels that way for many of the law firms that we work with and
firms I've been with in the past.
And I think it stems from the fact that it's a challenging industry to work in.
Typically, if you work in the legal industry, you love the industry.
You're very devoted to helping the clients of the firm.
and you're sort of in it together.
And that fosters a family type of dynamic that you may not see in other industries.
So that's one component of what makes ManyLawFirm special.
But then as they grow, a lot of our clients want to keep that feeling, but now develop
more structure, grow.
You hear the word scale.
that it's necessary to have such as in place if that is what your goal is.
Right.
well, and given, mean, I had mentioned before, you're obviously implementing some of these
systems with them.
Some, sometimes they don't have a system of tracking and managing their own projects and
tasks and things like that.
Uh, when you're doing something like that, and as we talk about, uh, culture and how that
could impact people, like they're going to be able to see maybe in some ways that they
never could before if somebody's underperforming.
And I, if you're in that space and you're helping them grow, how do you help leaders that,
um, are experiencing having
more granularity to this underperformance and how they are going to help manage that team
without hurting the morale of the people that they're now leading.
Right.
So it sounds as though the question is very much geared towards like, how do we help our
clients when they may have someone on the team that is either underperforming or having a
negative impact on the team and the clients?
It's very much that pro and con approach.
And I say that a lot because that is really a helpful way to help people understand the
impact of not taking action.
So we do always advocate
initially to address things in real time.
You know, I think sometimes um many people, it's difficult to have those conversations so
it's avoided and then it blows up.
um Add to that an industry where people are very limited on free time to address items
because it takes time to do that.
So we initially work with our clients to help them.
have those conversations in real time.
And because we work with our clients so ongoing, these conversations come up with us
regularly and we coach them through it if needed.
And then the next thing is we take that pro and con approach of, know, we document and
identify the impact that an individual may be having on the rest of the team and the
clients in the goals of the company.
And then we support them if needed.
And often it is in the process of how to prepare for that conversation.
And we will also always recommend that they consult with their employment law attorney as
part of the process.
that's actually important because we will flag things that may not be intuitive that our
clients should be aware of if they do decide to have that conversation with an employee.
And are you ever, uh, you or your team, did you say you're ever with them during those
conversations?
You actually like join.
it's a rule we have in the past.
It's not something that we would be present for that conversation if it would help with
the outcome and help our client.
But it's not something that we offer as a service.
I think human resources is such a specialized area.
We focus more on the culture.
the team as a whole and then if helpful we will be involved but we're aware of sometimes
that's not the best fit especially if we want the firm to also trust us as the firm's
consultants because we do tend to interact with many people at the firm not just the
person that brought us on.
Right.
Well, and speaking of like, uh, helping with the cultural aspect of it, I know that you've
built remote and in-person teams.
what would you say your like number one tip is for leading a hybrid or distributed team?
Well,
um Great question.
it's communicate, communicate, communicate.
And it's, it's having tools to do that and helping people understand how communication
will take place.
As an example, we all know we have a lot of email, and it's overwhelming.
And it's a lot.
Too much.
but you also have a team of people that need to share information and provide updates.
it's communicating through different tools where people know what's expected.
I'm a huge fan of Slack, love Slack.
We even have a system for Slack with its channels for certain things.
And we really, as a team, promote, like if it's client related, it goes in client related.
If it's a team item, it goes in teams.
So having systems so the team can communicate.
Project management systems are key, they really are.
I think you and I, David, have had a conversation.
We're into Monday, I think you are also.
It's an easy tool.
It's a flexible, affordable tool that a firm can implement for those topics that are not
client related.
So we know law firms have time and billing, but what about...
the business side of the firm.
What about the outing that you're having on Friday?
How you share information.
So it's communication through pre-established channels.
And then I'm also a very big believer in if you're virtual, the daily call it what you
want, stand up, sync.
It could be a 15 minute.
Everyone jumps on a call, shares what they have going on that week, that day, any
challenges.
And it helps people.
get together once a day for a limited amount of time that sets the tone for the rest of
the day.
Is there anything involved in what you just described the process you described that you
advise to clients to try to help engage the entire staff in the company's culture?
And what I mean by that is lots of times like a leader of a company and owner might have
goals for the company.
ah And maybe those goals don't reach all the way down to the people answering the phones
or things like that.
How does uh how do you recommend to people that are trying to build?
that family experience, that close culture, and get everybody that's in the team involved
in that kind of a culture.
Yeah, that's, that's an area that I feel strongly about.
And I believe from past experience, and in viewing this with it with our current clients,
it's critical to help to have everyone on the team understand that at least the general
direction of where the firm is going.
It does not mean that you need to share anything HR, financial, but
Sharing the goals and sending out update emails to everybody is really helpful and you can
keep it high level.
But once folks at a firm feel like, OK, they value me, they told me what's happening,
they're in it, they want to help.
If you don't tell people what's happening, people feel not included and they also don't
offer assistance.
And that's actually a common challenge at law firms.
I think that.
It's a combination of perhaps risk adversity, being concerned about oversharing combined
with a lack of time to think about spending 10 minutes on an update email.
um But having someone at the firm, it doesn't need to be the founder, the management
partner, and it could be an administrative individual who's tasked with creating a
summary.
on a predetermined basis.
If you have a big overhaul with your time and billing, really should be at least, there
should be a weekly email going out to everyone like FYI.
This is what we've accomplished.
This is what's next.
so communication and really deliberately sharing information is really important.
It sounds like what you're saying largely has a lot to do with also maybe transparency,
but you also mentioned like up to a point, it doesn't have to be every detail of the
company.
People need to be involved.
They just kind of need to feel like they're a part of what's happening at the larger
picture scale, which is exactly the kind of experience I have with other other businesses
in other areas.
Uh, it seems to be sometimes difficult to know where to draw that line.
And at the same time, that feels like the thing that you can
do that has the biggest impact, least from my experience, to get somebody to feel like um
I'm valued enough to be included.
um And only then will I feel like I am a part of it and I'm going to give more of myself
to that space.
Yeah, it's really true.
And I think it's not black and white.
So some folks will say, well, gee, well, we can't share salaries.
Of course you can't.
But you can share other information.
So just know what you share and have some bullets on if someone requests information that
you really can't share.
Just have some messaging that you use.
could be we understand that you're
wondering what's happening with XYZ, but due to confidentiality, we're not able to share
that.
But please just know we're taking it seriously.
There's just some points that a firm leader can say to help people know they value their
feedback, but they're not going to share information about their teammates or anything
that could be too private to another individual.
Right.
ah If you could give uh only one piece of leadership advice to every new managing partner
on day one, what would that be?
And why would you choose that piece of advice?
That piece of advice would be that you genuinely cannot do it alone.
And you do not need to be good at everything.
Nobody is.
And I'm giving three.
And trust your team, but make sure they know what's expected of them.
So many firm leaders may believe that they need to have all the answers and do everything
themselves.
And
That's not possible.
And you'll get to a point where you may have developed a culture where people come to you
for everything because you always wanted to be the person that folks went to.
And as a firm grows, it can be incredibly stressful.
I'll say that this comes up with some clients we work with, the folks I speak with, that
they want to now have more free time.
but for the past 10 years, they've been the go-to for everything.
And so how do you change that?
So if you can start from the beginning, making clear to people what their boundaries are,
what their roles are, and develop a system where you get like an FYI list once a week from
whoever's handling things.
Just make sure you're in the loop, but you don't need to do it.
And have a system where you're informed, high-level bullet, and people know when they need
to come to you.
That's what I love about that entire, could completely remove the fact that we were
talking about law firms and it sounds generally applicable to people that are needing to
learn to lead and to know how to create those boundaries and those expectations.
That sounds pretty core to what any leader should do and setting expectations and managing
their team.
So I thought that was.
of uh books on that.
So there's a reason.
books, ah I was actually going to ask you what would be a book you would recommend to a
leader that is specifically in law that's looking to try to be more effective at managing
their own practice.
So there's two books and there's two books.
They're not specific to law, but they absolutely apply to law firms.
One is Buy Back Your Time, which is, have you read that?
I haven't, I've heard of it and I've been told I need to read it.
So I actually, it sounds, I'm glad that you brought that up.
I do need to read it.
it is.
If you see me, look to the side.
Yes, Dan Martell.
I actually knew I was going to.
I had that on the screen, so buy back your time by Dan Martell is excellent, and I'll just
quickly share why I feel it applies to so many law firms in businesses.
So often we hire because we're filling a specific need.
Or we have someone on the team that is overextended and you want to give them relief.
And as the founder owner of the firm, you don't always consider yourself that person.
Buy back your time is the approach of investing your money with the goal of freeing
yourself up so that you can do what you're best at.
And even if economically you can do it, even if it seems like a splurge, if you need to
hire someone to handle all your operations, make that investment.
your goal is, of course, to improve your operations.
But it really should be how many hours a week is that person going to free you up?
And buy and back your time is basically invest in the money that you've built within your
firm to free a new
the person that's running the firm up.
So buybacky time is excellent and it's a little bit of a different way of thinking about
hiring.
I resonate with the entire concept for lots of reasons, which I know you already probably
are aware of.
ah What I love about the structure of that way of thinking is it sounds like it basically
you're having to identify not just what's the cost of someone helping me, but what's the
value of my time.
And when I talk to people that are running businesses, especially if they've started
building a business themselves from the very beginning, it seems to be the very last
thing.
I think they don't want to do the math on that.
because then they have to think about, man, how much of my time have I put into this?
Like I have to actually see, like, I mean, that was a lot of time that I didn't pay myself
for.
So it seems like they've almost like built this.
I don't want to do that math to figure out how much time I've sunk into this.
because it can be surprising.
And if you work in a law firm, you're tracking your time.
And many attorneys may not track their non-billable time, but we highly recommend they do.
That's something.
And it is so eye opening.
After even a few weeks when some of the attorneys we work with see that they have spent 30
hours on something that they thought was five.
So the buy back your time, I think, is an amazing approach to freeing yourself up.
Most of the attorneys we work with, I'm sure that you work with, they're mostly very
driven.
They usually prioritize client service, so they want to be available.
And they also want to build their business.
And they know that they likely have a natural ability to bring in clients.
But because of a lack of their own time,
They're not getting to what they want to do.
So if they can free themselves up five hours, that's five hours to nurture your
relationships, which usually has a very high return in satisfaction.
it was actually, this kind of leads into a question I was wanting to ask you.
I was going to ask what you've seen as maybe uh one of the more common challenges to
scaling.
And when you're describing this, tracking their time, I didn't realize that, ah in law,
that there's so much unbillable hours not being tracked.
And it makes sense because that's the same for most founders.
They're not tracking their time.
but it's one to one for a lawyer to track their time and bill it.
And then it means that they kind of already have that habit.
uh that, from your experience, is that one of the more common issues or struggles they
have with the scaling is being able to just replicate their own time?
I think.
Challenges with scaling at many firms are again because the person that started it is the
go-to for everything, so they're a bottleneck.
And I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it's just a reality.
And then not having systems in place that folks can come in new to the firm and pick up
and run with.
Right.
And then just to sort of close the loop in your question, because I went a little bit to
the side, it's always a limitation on time.
It's an extreme reality for many, not just lawyers, it's for many.
But I do think it's compounded for folks like lawyers who do track their time and have
clients that have emergencies and do need them last minute with no meaning on the books.
So it makes them always behind quite often.
m
How do you go about, how are you advising them in tracking their own time for the
non-billable?
you helping them deploy a system to do this?
Are you just, how do you?
Yeah.
So there's a few things, you know, a topic that comes up a lot lately is how to really
capture time that is spent on one of the number one things we all spend time on every day,
email.
This comes up all the time and the amount of time that is lost because very few people are
going to.
draft an email and then go into that time.
So there's tools for things like that, some great ones out there by the way, great ones.
um And then to keep it simple, if they're manually tracking their own time, it's just have
one matter open, administrative.
You don't need a matter for business development, a matter for marketing.
Just have one matter open at the firm where people just...
keep the clock open on the side and they just type in the details as they turn the clock
on and then close it at the end of the day.
And might have six hours on administrative and six on client.
But it's interesting because don't overcomplicate it, just have one matter.
And then also enlist tools that automatically capture.
things like email that you're sending and you could have a matter for administrative.
I won't get into detail, but there are ways that you can capture administrative time
automatically in your time and billing system, depending on which one you have.
oh
Okay.
Well, I mean, speaking of tools, um, and, and, and time management generally at, know that
AI has been impacting every industry.
don't have a lot of inside information on how it's specifically impacting the legal
industry, but I imagine that you, you would, probably see it inside your own clients.
You may even be helping, um, try to get some adoption because, know, obviously the more
efficient you can make any of, uh, the firm's time.
the more valuable, the more revenue they're able to bring in.
What do you see in the industry as like what's being adopted ah and embraced versus what's
being resisted as it comes to AI?
So I will share that it is a very big topic in the legal industry right now, as in the
world.
um
ALA, Association of Legal Administrators, annual conference last year, it was one of the
number one topics.
was AI at law firms and mental health in law firms were the two big topics of their annual
conference, which is a few days.
And what we're seeing a lot with our clients is the need to document when they use AI,
when they don't use AI.
and how to communicate.
that they have a policy in place in their engagement letter.
So it's getting into the logistics of the safe and appropriate use of AI.
So that's coming up a lot and it's helping people understand when they can use it, when
they cannot.
Some firms are taking a no AI at all policy.
I haven't seen a few, there's a few that have taken, at the moment they've taken that
stance because they just want to, they're risk adverse and they just want to make sure
things are done correctly.
There are other firms
that have formed committees where they are researching the best practices on how they're
going to incorporate it within their practice areas.
um So it is a major discussion.
And within the clients we work with, it's definitely the protocols around using it.
And then training, there's popping up a lot of AI specific consultants that will go into
firms and
and advise, and a lot of it is practice area specific.
Some practice areas are very conducive to AI.
I would say maybe estate planning, maybe conducive to it.
A lot of very good estate plan attorneys, of course, review in the documents, but there
are certain practice series that are very conducive and many firms are preparing to
maximize this opportunity while also making sure that they comply with the regulations and
standards that they're held to as attorneys.
Do you get personally dragged into any of those conversations as a consultant for law
firms that are trying to make themselves more efficient?
Do they try to engage you?
Are you doing anything yourself to support that uh space for law firms?
up a lot.
actually, so the way we work with clients is we don't do just one project for a client.
They tend to come to us for a main reason.
And then as we learn more, there's a list of things and then we come in and we help them
with a number of items.
um Efficiency is usually on the list and AI as a result is on the list.
um
With a background working in law firms for many years, I don't want to say I'm risk
adverse, but I'm very sensitive to compliance.
And when it comes to AI, we highly recommend um training and policies and being open to
the changes that are happening on a daily basis.
Well, that's, uh I, I totally understand.
It comes up all the time in pretty much any conversation I have with any of my clients at
this point, it's too pervasive in, uh, systems in working with people, especially when
you're working remote, everybody's on technology.
Um, so there's always that opportunity to bring a tool like that in.
Um, and I appreciate you sharing what it's like in the legal industry because you
obviously we've heard there's, there's horror stories, I think in every industry that I've
seen there's.
how it went really wrong, and then it's the where is it headed at this point and how fast
is it going to get there.
ah
agree.
I'll share that we very much strive to keep it realistic.
So I think when firms and companies who say here of AI, they think they're going to be
able to create a booklet in two minutes and that's not how it works.
So we keep it very realistic and we try to, we strive to incorporate AI to solve a pain
point.
and document it and let folks get used to that.
in addition to having guidelines and processes that everyone at the firm knows exist and
need to follow, it's the low hanging fruit.
Like try really using AI for one or two things, get used to it, and then move to the next.
You don't have to do everything in one day.
Yeah, it's interesting.
It's, um I mean, I've used it a little bit.
I can see like what it's capable of.
And I, and I can hear people talk about it as if it's just a synonym for magic.
Like it can do anything.
It's a tool.
It can't do anything.
It requires prompting to a degree.
And then there's, there is a lot that it can do, but we can, we're also still learning and
we're just trying to keep up with it.
But speaking of predictions, I wanted to ask you uh if you could go into the past.
knowing what you know now ah to a younger version of yourself before you own your own
business.
And you can only give yourself one piece of advice.
You got about 30 seconds.
You can only give yourself one piece of advice before you're zapped back to now.
What would that piece of advice be?
That's such a good question.
wish I, let me think about this.
So the one piece of advice I would give myself from 30 years ago.
Yes.
It really would be to continue.
This is going to sound corny, but it really is professional development.
It's please don't ever let anyone tell you that you don't need to continue to learn, to
take courses, to embrace associations within your industry.
I worked with someone many years ago who really encouraged me and I've always kept that as
a priority for me and I do with my company.
Everyone on my team is almost always in the process of some certification and attend,
attended webinars.
And I think that that's advice that in law firms in particular, I will say that what will
happen is there'll be a wonderful associate, great associate.
And they'll be told, you know, focus on the work.
Don't worry about BD in the future.
Don't worry about writing a blog.
And there's a percent of truth to absolutely focusing on the legal skills as a new
attorney.
However, carving out some time to develop those other skills and continuing to learn and
network and be part of bar association events is really important.
I think as soon as someone enters their professional life.
So my advice would be to continue definitely growing and don't ever like stop your
education.
Now, I wanna dive a little bit deeper into that.
Is the reason you'd give yourself that advice because it's reinforcing where you are now
or because it bridges a gap and you wished you had done more.
God, that's a good question.
ah You're putting me on the spot and I'll be really frank.
I believe I've always loved professional development and so it comes naturally to me.
I do, so I think it's helped me very much be where I am today.
And I also believe that I try to instill that with everyone I work with.
And I do talk about this with our clients that
And it helps people, it helps the team members at our clients offices stay with them
because they see that they're invested in them.
So the answer is I feel I've always had that way of working and um maybe I wish I started
sooner than I did.
Let's put it that way.
Yeah.
All right.
Totally understand.
Well, bringing it back to the present because this is when you gave yourself advice.
ah I wanted to ask you what is something you're currently working on right now that you're
really excited about that you'd want to share with you?
Okay, wow.
um So I will share.
So we, our services, strategic planning, strategic COO, we get involved in support firms
when they're requiring groups.
It's very much the business side of law firms.
uh We are rolling out formally law firm centric marketing services.
So we do that now actually only with existing clients.
oh
And there's a story how it evolved.
We actually have two people on a team that are marketers that are excellent.
then we have, so we have the resources and we have discovered that a lot of our clients as
part of their strategic initiatives or the revenue growth initiatives, they need some form
of marketing and they also want some of that understands law firms.
and they need help with things like awards management, like things that are very law firm
centric.
And so we, as part of our engagements, have started helping some of our clients because
it's necessary for them to get where they want to be.
And so, you know, we have decided to go ahead and formally launch this additional service
to folks that aren't existing clients.
And our marketing is very law firm centric.
So it's not everything to everybody.
is really geared towards the law firms that are between up to 25, 30 attorneys.
It's not personal injury marketing, but it's a state plan and probate business.
um
family law, there's specific needs in the legal industry and there's certain level that
attorneys want to proceed with.
They don't always want some of the services that great agencies offer.
So we're a very law firm centric focused service because we know what our clients want and
we know them.
That's great.
And you mentioned that one of things you do is manage uh like reward or award management.
So it sounds like you're helping your clients win awards.
We support their initiatives towards being eligible and then eventually winning the
awards.
We do.
We help them with the management of different opportunities.
Yes.
them win awards.
But I think what I heard is you helped them win awards.
That's what I heard.
They win the awards and we support their, um the initiative of being having it front of
mind and not losing sight of these awards that they're absolutely eligible for and helping
them manage the steps needed to get those awards and then to promote them.
Right, well, and you must know what you're doing because you're winning awards yourself.
Thank you.
And I what last question while we're here together.
I wanted to ask you uh we talked earlier about uh Books that you might recommend
professionally.
I wanted to ask you personally What are some books that you read if you that you read just
for fun?
What's one you're reading if even if it's right now or what's one you've read recently
just for fun?
That's a good that's another one.
um I don't read a ton of fiction, although I want to because I think it's very enjoyable.
This isn't fiction.
I do love biography, so I'll tell you I'm actually reading Sally Fields biography.
And it's it's I do like really it's really good.
um It just came out and it's it's so interesting about her life and.
um And.
That's what I'm reading for fun right now.
It's really good.
She got great ratings.
So I was like, OK, I'll give it a try because I like biographies.
I like learning how people persevered and got to where they are.
And her story is not what you would expect.
So that is my latest read.
And then I do tend to not read a lot of fiction, but a great read.
And it's an older book, but I'll share it because it's a must read.
It's probably from 10 years ago, but it's called Educated.
And you may have heard
And it is a true story, and that's an excellent book.
And that's front of mind, because I actually saw a little article about the author.
So yeah, so that's what I'm reading right now.
Well, that is awesome, Margaret.
Thank you for sharing and thank you for being on the podcast with me today and giving us
some insights on what leadership uh experiences and struggles and opportunities there are
in the leadership space for legal.
ah Thank you again so much.
Looking forward to chatting with you more and we'll chat again soon.
Thank you, David.
Great being here.
Bye.