Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
Law school does a fantastic job of teaching you the rules of evidence and how to brief a complex appellate case, but it doesn't always teach you how to actually talk to a jury. As a litigator, your success depends on your ability to translate rigid academic legal concepts for people who have never stepped foot inside a law school. On today's episode, we speak with a prominent criminal defense attorney and popular legal content creator who knows this better than anyone. We discuss how engaging with a global audience online acts as the ultimate crash course and understanding a jury pool. By dropping the formal lawyer speak makes you a better advocate for your clients and how the internet can teach you what casebooks can't. This is the ABA Law Student Podcast. Hi, Nayeli. Hi, Eve. How are you doing, Nayeli?
Nayeli Diaz (01:00):
I'm getting towards the end of graduation, Todds. I'm feeling all kinds of feelings, but I'm pretty okay.
Todd Berger (01:06):
I know it's a weird time of year. It's pride. At the same time, he's a little bit of sweet, a little scary, a little lighting, but I'm sure we'll have plenty of time to talk about that on another podcast. I'll just give you time to gather your feelings. How are you doing, Eve?
Eve Albert (01:22):
I'm doing well. I decided to take a trip in between my finals because I'm really smart. I'm in Long Island right now, but other than that, doing good. Hanging in there.
Todd Berger (01:34):
All right. So you were the host who had this month's interview, really cool interview. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what the interview is going to entail and who we're going to hear from.
Eve Albert (01:45):
On this episode, we're talking to Alicia Hawthorne. She goes by the handle the Luncheon Lawyer and basically by day she works in immigration defense and she also creates legal content, basically talking about the intersection of law and pop culture. So she covers relevant cases or things that are coming up with celebrities in the legal field and basically give summaries about those and just talks to people outside of the legal field. But I wanted to ask her about how making this content has improved or shaped her legal practice and has helped her better understand the law. And so we get into that on this episode and I just asked her about her work and her background in general because she's got a really interesting story. Yeah,
Todd Berger (02:34):
Absolutely. It's really interesting, not just the work that she's doing, but also her social media presence, which is another dimension to some people's legal practice that wasn't there 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. So really quite topical in a lot of ways. So excited for the interview and ready to get started.
Eve Albert (02:56):
Just for the sake of getting into the conversation, can you just walk us through your experience? I know that you were a prosecutor at Fulton County.
Alicia Hawthorne (03:04):
Yeah. First of all, I'm so shocked you found... I thought I scrubbed that from the internet. Yes. I was a prosecutor at the Fulton County District Attorney's Office a million years ago pre-pandemic 2019. I think I quit in 2020-ish right after the pandemic hit. And it was certainly interesting. A lot of people think that I was a prosecutor and then I went to defense, but it was actually I was a defense attorney, then a prosecutor, then a defense attorney again. So the prosecution was kind of sandwiched in the middle and I didn't last very long. I think maybe two years. But yeah, it was great. It was an interesting experience for sure, but it's just not for me. I did not want to be on that side of the law, putting people in prison, putting people in jails. It just wasn't what I wanted to do.
(03:56):
And originally my idea was I'm going to go to the DA's office and I'm going to dismiss cases and I'm really going to be like a beacon of justice and people who are wrongfully accused. I'm going to be able to help them out. And in my experience, the reality just wasn't that. I do feel I can do better work on the other side working directly with clients and fighting their cases on this end and not having as much bureaucracy and red tape. So that's a little bit about that.
Eve Albert (04:23):
That's a common theme on this show for sure where we definitely try to encourage law students to shop around and you don't need to know what you're doing when you graduate law school. You don't even need to know exactly what area of law you want to go into when you start practicing. So I think that that's really interesting that you still gave it a try. You wanted to explore the other side of things, but your first guess was right about what you wanted to do, criminal defense.
Alicia Hawthorne (04:51):
Yeah. I for sure shopped around. I did immigration work, criminal work, and really those two, a litle bit of family law, but you're so right. I mean, when you graduate, oh my God. Well, I think I was 24, 25 at the time. I've been practicing 11 years, which is crazy. But yeah, I mean, there's just no way you know what you want to do when you get out. And so definitely encourage people to do internships, externships, whatever you can while you're in law school and just go for it, but don't be afraid to try to pivot and do something else. That's the beauty of a law degree. You can really do whatever you want to do with it.
Eve Albert (05:32):
I think it's interesting that you mention 11 years because every time you say it, you mention how long you've been practicing on your Instagram or your TikTok post, people are like, "But you look so young." So once and for all, what's the skincare routine?
Alicia Hawthorne (05:46):
Oh my God. Right. No, first thank you so much for that. It's a huge compliment now. You do not know how frustrated I used to be when I graduated because if I
Todd Berger (05:57):
Look
Alicia Hawthorne (05:57):
Young now, imagine when I'm 25, people probably thought I was like 16 and they're like, "Are you an attorney?" And some of that might be if you talk about stereotypical attorneys, I might not look like that, but I used to get so frustrated. But now that I'm older, I'm like, "Thank you so much. That's a huge compliment." I'm glad.
Eve Albert (06:21):
Yeah. No, that's definitely something I've been concerned about as a younger woman going into the legal field. I think that there is a genuine fear that you won't be taken seriously because of your age, because of your gender. For a lot of people, because of your race, unfortunately, some people still subscribe to really antiquated ideas of what a lawyer looks like. So what has been your experience with that? Have you had success in proving people wrong? I mean, you have a lot of people that look up to you on the internet, so I'm sure that that must be encouraging and you are probably setting the stage for a lot of young lawyers as well.
Alicia Hawthorne (07:00):
Oh my gosh. Wow. I have never thought about it like that. I hope no one is trying to follow in the footsteps of the content creator because it's a little risky. I like to remind people that by the time I started on the internet, I had been practicing for a while and I knew I wanted to start my own business and so I wasn't super concerned about maybe what future employers will think, not to drag the conversation down, but I also wanted to make it normal for people to post online and lawyers can have more than one personality. Law school doesn't have to be your entire personality. You have many facets to yourself. So hopefully that door has been kicked down and a lot of people coming after me will feel comfortable showing themselves and their personalities online. But back to the original question for you, Eve, as a young law student coming out, yeah, there might be, of course, some people who judge you or might think something about you because of your gender, maybe your race even, who knows.
(08:09):
But I try not to worry about that too much. I'll tell you another thing. When I was first coming out, that used to really concern me as well, just like you said. But I think it hindered me because I would walk into these rooms and I just feel like, "Oh my God, everyone's judging me. They think I'm too young. They think I'm dumb. I'm not smart enough to be here. What if I say something wrong?" And I realized that I am judging them as I assume they're judging me and it's not fair. I don't want them to do that to me, I shouldn't judge them. And so now I try to walk into a room kind of neutrally and just assume everything's fine. And what if they're not thinking that? What if they're thinking, "Wow, she's really smart. She knows what she's talking about just as easily they could be thinking the opposite thing, but really you just can't.
(09:05):
I try not to let that affect me too much. And when you prepare and you open your mouth if you want to do litigation or if you write your briefs and they're top tier, if you don't want to do litigation, if you do transactional work, your work will speak for itself and you will begin to build that reputation so that when you do walk into the room, people know to put some respect on your name.
Eve Albert (09:28):
That makes a lot of sense. And I think that especially for oral advocacy, that is something that law schools, or at least my school really tries to teach us. You need to go into it with your mind in a certain mode. And if you go into it already feeling defeated, just accepting that you're going to be nervous, it's going to hold you back in a lot of ways. So I think that that's a really interesting message that can be applied to a lot of things. Somewhat adjacently, I wanted to ask you about imposter syndrome. With having such a large audience, the fact that your content is a little bit of a departure from the normal way that a lawyer looks or the normal way people convey legal conversations, do you ever feel like you have a lot of eyes on you? Does that intimidate you or because you're so established, do you just think that nobody can touch me?
(10:27):
I mean, SISA follows you.
Alicia Hawthorne (10:30):
Isn't that crazy? I know, but no, I actually think most people don't think about me on a day-to-day. This isn't a self-deprecating thing. It's just kind of like the internet is its own thing. Yeah, sometimes you can feel that pressure of like, oh my gosh, what are people thinking of me? What are they saying about me behind my back? Things like that. But now I don't mind it as much because I just try to stay myself. The same way that I talk to you is pretty much the same way that I'm talking to a judge in court. It's pretty much the same way I'm talking to a client. And I think if you can just bring your true self in everything that you do, you don't really have to worry about that as much. And if you confront your fears, because I think the fear there is there are a lot of eyes on me and you take it a step further, what are they thinking of me?
(11:32):
Do they like me? Maybe they don't, but that'll bring you down because you don't know what people are thinking and you're not a mind reader. So I just try to approach every conversation really positively. It's really, it's a little delulu, but I think it kind of helps me get through. And then of course, if the person starts talking to you and there's a weird vibe or a weird energy, of course you can kind of react to that. But you just have to stay really solid, know who you are and I think that'll help you through those situations. You won't change just because someone else has a nasty attitude because it's just not you. That's not your personality.
Eve Albert (12:12):
Has creating legal content helped shape your legal practice in any way? Has your legal experience fully shaped your legal content making? How do those two things interact with each other?
Alicia Hawthorne (12:27):
Yeah. It's interesting about how it's grown. I think the content creation has helped me understand how people who did not attend law school think about legal issues. It's like having free access to jurors, members of the community in these comment sections and the way that people view the evidence and the things that they say, I'm like, I would've never said that. I never would've put those two things together. And you'll see a comment and it has 2,000 likes and it's something completely outlandish and you're like, wow, but this is your jury pool. So I like it a lot in that way. I
(13:11):
Think it's definitely helped me become a better lawyer and assisted me in talking to people because you have that legal foundation where you're fresh out of law school, you're like, the rules of evidence, and I love young lawyers for this reason because the rules of evidence are so fresh in their heads. They've just taken a bar exam and they're ready to go. I'm like, awesome because it's been like 11 years since I've taken an evidence exam and I'm doing a specific area of law. But yeah, I think originally it was very rigid and the way that I would talk to people, it was almost academic like, well, the statute says this and you did this and these elements and therefore you should maybe think about pleading guilty and your client is like, "Dang, my lawyer told me to plead guilty and they don't care about my case." And it's like, no, that's not what I'm saying, but that means I need to go back and I'm not expressing this the right way.
(14:07):
And you only get that experience of how to talk to people by talking to people and the internet is everybody's on the internet, people from all walks of life. So highly recommend.
Eve Albert (14:19):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that is another reason why I love engaging with legal content because there's so many people that are giving perspectives outside of the actual legal field. I think that it's so easy when you're in law school to think inside of a box. So it provides an opportunity to alter the way you think about things. A good example of that as well is I spend a lot of my time talking about what I learned to my family and friends who are not in law school and that is a smaller scale version of what you do where it helps me further explain what I am trying to convey to the layman. Because if you're going into litigation, a lot of what you're doing is going to be talking to jurors and people not super involved in the case. So you need to be able to explain things at a base level.
Alicia Hawthorne (15:13):
Man, it's a double edged sword for sure because you just don't know what people are expecting. I think it helps me on the defense side more than it helps the prosecution because people kind of really want this high, they might want all this stuff and that the prosecution probably typically doesn't have in an average case, but you just never know because if you don't present the case like their favorite online lawyer, then you might not, your trash or your Saul Goodman, right? Who knows? But I think overall it's a good experience and it makes you have tougher skin because you're going to get all types of comments from all types of people. But if this is a part of the job, it's a performance-based job You have a jury, they're looking at you, all eyes are on you, there's a judge and you need to be able to perform in this kind of high pressure situation.
(16:10):
So I think getting on camera and talking and exposing yourself to more people, I think it goes a long way.
Eve Albert (16:18):
So would you say that your target audience is people outside of the legal field?
Alicia Hawthorne (16:25):
Yes, I would. And it's funny, but I think my audience is a mixture. I remember I've always been so surprised that lawyers and law students follow me because I don't really give these ... I don't think I do. I don't think I give in depth legal analysis or I try not to. I really try not to because it's not ... I started out doing that and people were like, "This is not what we want to see." If we wanted to listen to NPR, we'd go over there, we're here for entertainment, want it broken down in a minute and 30 seconds. And so I always thought that was so funny that lawyers were in the comment section and I'm like, "Oh God, you guys are not supposed to see this. This is not my best legal analysis." So yeah, I think I'm mostly just talking to other people who are interested in the law, but really just other people who enjoy or want to laugh or make a joke or people who are funny is kind of who I'm aiming at because I like when I go in the comment section and they're just continuing on a joke or cracking jokes based off of a joke that I may have made.
(17:37):
And so that's really what I think I'm doing. But in reality, yeah, I think there's a lot of legal professionals who are on the platform and I love it. Come one, come all.
Todd Berger (17:50):
We'll be right back.
Eve Albert (17:59):
So I do want to ask for Nayelli, who isn't here, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. She's the other host on this podcast. She has a musical theater background as well. Do you have any lessons you have taken from your musical theater background and applied to your legal practice?
Alicia Hawthorne (18:18):
Yeah. Oh my God, so many. If you haven't drawn the conclusion already, pretty much I would say almost every single content creator lawyer had a theater background who's online. I would say pretty much most of the people that you even see online, they're all theater kids for the most part. They've all
Todd Berger (18:38):
Done
Alicia Hawthorne (18:39):
Improv and theater. The skills are the same. So many, yes, so many skills. I would say the most important one is if you do community theater, which I did a ton of, using what you have to make something great, because in a community theater, you're like on a shoestring budget, you're doing a show in a conference room with no set. You have to build everything.You're using props that you got from Goodwill, but that skillset is so useful. Number one in content creation because, hey, I don't have a boom mic, I don't have a studio like NBC, so I'm going to have to use my creativity to put something together. But also in court, of course, improv, things go wrong, people if you forget your lines or you forget what you're going to say next or opposing counsel objects to just throw you off the judge objects and they're like, "Actually, everything you're about to say I'm excluding from evidence, so figure out another way." And then you're like, "Wow, that just eviscerated my whole argument on that.
(19:47):
" So that thinking quickly on your feet is I think the number one skill that I've taken from musical theater and theater in general.
Eve Albert (19:56):
No, I think that that's something that a lot of law students have to work to refine. So if you have a background already doing that, I'm sure that it's really helpful. I'm terrible at thinking on my feet. I go, "Oh, deer in the headlights."
Alicia Hawthorne (20:12):
No, you know what? It's something it's a skill just like any other skill. So I think sometimes people feel like, "Oh my gosh, that person just is a natural. They're just innate." I'm like, "All this stuff can be learned." Becoming a great trial lawyer, thinking on your feet improv, never just be like, "Well, I wasn't born with it. " No. I'm like, "The more you do it, the better at it you will get. " So it just takes a lot of fire and a lot of embarrassment. It's harder now because everything is recorded. I felt like I could make a lot of mistakes back pandemic before everything was on Zoom and get my embarrassment out of the way, but you got to just get your reps in and you're going to get knocked down and that's how you become better.
Eve Albert (21:01):
Yeah, no, I embarrassed myself for breakfast. I did a Fortnite dance in front of my friends ironically, but they didn't get it and so it was just really embarrassing.
Alicia Hawthorne (21:10):
Oh, so
Eve Albert (21:11):
I was like, "Oh." They're like, "We don't play Fortnite." I was like, "No, I don't either." It was just for the bit, whatever.
Alicia Hawthorne (21:17):
No, exactly.
Eve Albert (21:19):
So what do you see for yourself going forward? Are you going to create content forever?
Alicia Hawthorne (21:28):
Yes. Forever. I'll be 95 years old and I will still have a camera. Yes. I do intend to take the platform even bigger. I would love to have my own show and very unserious of course, but I don't know how to make it work because I want people to come and tell me about their issues and I give them advice, but I don't think I can do that because I am actually a licensed attorney and that's troublesome because I have to be like, "But I'm not your lawyer." That gets really tricky. So I was trying to figure out a way to do that. But yeah, I would love to build out a media platform, talk about these issues even faster, have maybe people who I can hire to create the content as well almost like a TMZ but not a TMZ because they're always at the scene of a crime.
(22:31):
Yeah, exactly. I'm derogatory when I say TMZ, but yeah, something like that. Yeah, I do. I tend to go as far as I can with it, but could I also see myself one day being like, "Well, that was fun. I'm going to call it a rap." I could because it is the news cycle just moves so fast. It's like, oh my gosh, every day there's 10 new things to talk about and I don't know what to cover and how and trying to edit it. And it really becomes, if you let it, kind of a twenty four seven thing. So I don't know how to deal with that in a healthy way. I don't know that anybody does really.
Eve Albert (23:08):
No, I think the ethical guidelines that you have kind of mentioned are really interesting because I was cracking up last night when I was finalizing my research. I saw a video you posted and then the top comment from you was like all caps allegedly.
Alicia Hawthorne (23:27):
Exactly. Period, please.
Eve Albert (23:29):
You just have to cover your butt. But yeah, have people tried to challenge you on that? Have you had any trouble on that front? I think when it's in the scheme that it's in where it's obviously for comedic value or newsworthy, I think people usually leave you alone.
Alicia Hawthorne (23:46):
Yeah, they do leave me alone. I think people don't think that I'm a lawyer. I think they think that I'm a content creator who just talks about legal stuff just like any other creator because it's a whole universe of just people who cover trending cases. I'm just
Todd Berger (24:06):
One of
Alicia Hawthorne (24:06):
The people in that universe and that most of them, maybe I would even say the top people, the top content creators are not attorneys in that space. And so I think people just think I'm one of them, which I'm fine with. So yeah, a lot of people don't even think I'm a lawyer. They just think the Luncheon Lawyer is a funny name. They think I call myself that because I eat the girls up is what someone told me. And I was like, no, that was my last name. So I plagiarized it from the Lincoln lawyer. I just put my last name in there and stole it from them, but people think it's just a funny screen name. So yeah, I don't typically get too much backlash, but I do always say allegedly, I'll tell you, people don't like the word allegedly. They want you to be like, yes, and he shot her or like, yes, and he definitely did whatever thing he's being accused of.
(25:04):
And I'm like, yes, I saw the video, I saw it happen, but I'm saying allegedly, because he hasn't been convicted of anything yet, or he or she, whatever. But no, man, people do not like that allegedly. They want you to be like, "This person did it and they're guilty and you need to say it. " They're like, "Ah,
(25:23):
Sorry. I can't do that. "
Eve Albert (25:24):
Judge, jury, executioner.
Alicia Hawthorne (25:25):
Everything online. And I'm like- Interesting. Maybe it's just your opinion. They want me to be like Nancy. Nancy Grace will just be like, "It happened, she did it and they should go to prison and go under the jail." And I'm like, "Well, I don't know. " Nancy can do that, I guess.
Eve Albert (25:45):
Oh my goodness. No, that and making sure people, because you do put your number out there and advertise for people to
Alicia Hawthorne (25:52):
Reach out to you if they
Eve Albert (25:53):
Need you, but making sure people know that you're not their lawyer is also, that's something that would scare me.
Alicia Hawthorne (26:01):
Yeah. No, I think people understand I'm not their attorney. I definitely don't think anyone ... It's been pretty good, but I think mostly it's like you said, it's mostly a comedic way. And I also don't talk about really anything I'm doing in real life. Don't talk about any of my cases. I think that can get dicey. Some attorneys do do that. I think some ethical considerations can come into play when you start doing stuff like that. But no, I mean, I think people just there's so many legal commentators, they just put me in that category, which I think they should. I think that's really what I'm doing. The audience is smart, man. I mean, if you ever try to BS the audience or you try to say something that's just not accurate or you're being fake, people pick up on it so quickly. We got to give the jury more
Eve Albert (26:55):
Credit.
Alicia Hawthorne (26:56):
Yeah. The jury, man, some don't quite smell right, doesn't quite pass the smell test. They'll call it out. So yeah, no, I think people just very unserious, almost like a, what's the daily show type of ... I think that's people see me as that. Oh,
Eve Albert (27:13):
Okay. I love the
Alicia Hawthorne (27:14):
Daily show. Yeah, like a Josh Johnson. Yeah, me too.
Eve Albert (27:18):
Last bit of advice for law students right now when this episode airs, finals are just going to be ending, but you got through law school, you got through however many years of practice and you seem like you are still sane, still above water. So what's the best piece of advice you heard or what's something you've experienced that you've learned that law students might need to hear right now?
Alicia Hawthorne (27:44):
That it gets better, that it's tough and that you're not the only one. If for some reason you feel maybe inadequate or you don't belong, you are not the only one who feels that way and most people feel the exact same way you do, not just young women, men, everybody across the board is always feeling like that. And so if you realize, "Wow, a lot of other people probably feel this way." Or if you try to put yourself in someone else's shoes and maybe they're reacting a certain way or they're saying something really harshly to you as you will see, because it is a profession where you have an opposing counsel and maybe they do sometimes get a little snippy or whatever, right? I just try to think I've been wrong so many times I used to meet fire with fire, which still is appropriate sometimes, not all, usually got to gauge.
(28:44):
Yeah, a gauge situation, but sometimes I would do that and it just wasn't the right move or I misread that person's intentions. I thought they were saying it this way, but they really meant it another way. And so I try to really gauge the situation. So I would say be slow to anger, be slow to frustration and try to keep a level head that will really carry you forward, especially in a courtroom situation where your opposing counsel is really going crazy, losing their mind, just being really nasty and then you have really pulled it back and you're reacting really calmly, really rationally. It just does a world of wonder for you. People can see that and you might feel like, "Wow, this person's talking me crazy. I got to get the upper hand. I don't want to seem like a punk," but sometimes you may have to do that, but you have to, I think it's a balance or when a judge is talking to you really just kind of crazy, I think you still have to make your point, you have to get your point across.
(29:52):
If there's a record, you have to do that, but there's a way to do it in a way where you make it seem like, yeah, that judge is going Nuts. Look at me. I'm just so calm. I'm just a quiet person. Wow, I don't know why they're going crazy on me. I was just being so nice. So I think you just have to think about that.
Eve Albert (30:10):
Yeah, no absolutely. That's definitely a piece of advice I could benefit from. It's so hard not to meet somebody where they are, but you're right. Being calm and approaching things with a level head, especially in the legal field, is going to do you a lot of good for sure. Yeah.
Todd Berger (30:25):
We'll be right back. So Eve, really interesting interview with a really interesting guest. I'm always curious as to what your two takeaways are from it. So Nayeli, let's start with you. What did you think of the interview and were there parts of it that you found particularly interesting or important for current lawyers, soon to be lawyers?
Nayeli Diaz (30:52):
Yeah, I thought it was a great interview, Eve. I have to first start by thanking Eve for the shout out, for asking for advice from a fellow theater kid. I felt so special. Thank you so much.
Eve Albert (31:02):
You got it.
Nayeli Diaz (31:04):
But I think she makes an excellent point and she articulated, right? Thinking on your feet is such a big part of the law. And this is to say that I think Eve, you mentioned that you're something that you kind of have a hard time with. I know someone when I was a woman, she was taking improv classes to actually improve on this skill. And it's like a thing that you can probably pretty easily find some classes around you for cheap or at your school. And it might help you to improve that because it's more fun than just maybe doing moot chord if you don't like it, just getting questions and thinking on your feet. It's the same skill, as she says. It's the same skill of thinking on your feet in theater except a different way that it's transferred into the law. And I've certainly seen that help me a lot in school.
(31:44):
You can just put me in front of anybody, give me a brief synopsis of what you want me to talk about and I will figure it out. And I think that's definitely a skill that comes from my years doing theater. I thought that was really interesting.
Todd Berger (31:54):
Eve, going into the interview, what did you think and coming out of it, what were your takeaways?
Eve Albert (31:58):
Yeah, I mean, I knew we have a lot of great episodes. I mean, I have to say that, but no, it's true. We've covered a lot of great ground this season. So as the semester was winding down, I know I'm speaking for myself, but I think law students in general have been taking in a lot of information. So really what I wanted to do with this episode was just have a guest on that I know is funny, I know makes really interesting content and give some overarching advice to law students who are either just getting started or just wrapping up about things you can take into your legal practice or things that will kind of help you shape the way you interact with the law. So just generally, I thought that Alicia did a really great job talking to law students, giving little tidbits here and there advice that even when I was talking to her, I was like, "Oh, I have this event.
(32:50):
I had my trial tech finals and something she said to me helped me in those finals." So I don't know. I thought that she just had a lot of great insight in that
Todd Berger (32:59):
Way. What did she say that helped you?
Eve Albert (33:01):
She said that when you are talking to judges or honestly anybody, especially in a courtroom, but especially judges, it's so easy to fall into the trap of they come at you with a little bit of sass or they come at you trying to poke the bear and not giving into that. Even opposing counsel might be trying to fight you on certain things, but remaining calm, saying to yourself, okay, right now this is how I need to respond to maintain decorum. And then once I'm out of here, I can scream into my pillow or whatever need be. But maintaining decorum and keeping your zen when you're speaking in a trial setting is just an underrated tool that everybody should really hold onto. And I absolutely fall into that trap. I think I am, like most youngest siblings always on defense, I'm like, "Okay, somebody is about to sass me, somebody's about to yell at me for something I didn't do so I need to be ready to defend myself." But no, it says a lot more about you, about your style as a lawyer or as an oral advocate if you can maintain your composure and come at things through a very neutral tame playing field.
Todd Berger (34:15):
So I totally agree with that. I think everything he said makes sense for those who are just starting out in a courtroom or just getting used to being advocates. You certainly make sense to always be professional and calm and collected. But I will say this, for whatever it's worth, I had a supervisor this one time and we would go to do these preliminary hearings and there was this judge there in preliminary hearing, it was just to see if there was enough evidence to bring the person to trial. It wasn't finding the person guilty. It's a very low standard. And this one judge, he would just sit there, we would call it in Philadelphia, held for court, and that was meant there was enough evidence to send you to trial. And didn't matter what the case was, could have been the worst case in the world.
(34:54):
The witnesses could have come to court and said, "That's not the guy who did it. I'm so sorry. I got it wrong. I can't apologize enough." And he would still say hell for court every time. That he thought his only role was to say that. Lawyers would get so upset at him for that over basically decades and everyone would read their breaking point and they would completely flip out at him. At some point, they'd just completely flip out at this judge and judges and lawyers get into it. They scream at each other sometimes and you would just kind of take it. And then the next case, didn't matter how bad the next case was for the defense. It could have been like 15 eyewitnesses, a confession, DNA evidence and the judge would just say, "Dismissed." And then the next case, he would go held for court.
(35:36):
So I had this supervisor one time and he was doing this. I was very new. I was out there, I don't know, maybe a month or two and he came out to observe and the judge was doing the same thing over and over again. I always remember the supervisor came up to me and he goes, "Watch this, watch this. " And then the next case he just absolutely flipped out at the judge and he was pretty cool. He was able to pull it off. He had a really cool hat. Then he put on his hat at the end of it and he walked out and he had this big coat. His coat was on, a coat was flat and he was kind of a superhero. And then the next case the judge was dismissed, whatever it was. So I will say, I took from this lesson that when you're in a courtroom, yes, I totally agree with her advice, but lawyers do use anger in court.
(36:21):
They do use anger persuasively. And the one thing I would just tell our listeners is it's bad when you use anger just out of frustration and you're flipping out, but anger can be a powerful form of advocacy in a courtroom. You just have to use it strategically. The strategic use of anger is cool. The just losing it is not. Yeah.
Eve Albert (36:42):
Before we move on, can you tell us more about this hat?
Todd Berger (36:47):
What kind of
Eve Albert (36:48):
Hat?
Todd Berger (36:48):
It was like some felt like really cool hat that you would buy in like a men's store that I could never pull off.
Eve Albert (36:57):
Next episode, I want you to come on with a hat and then we'll see if you can pull it off
Todd Berger (37:02):
Or not. No, it's clear. I tried pull off similar hats and it just doesn't work. I know this. But one thing I was struck by from our guests was the role of the internet and social media in modern practice. It's funny because what she was doing, there was a period of time where I was teaching a class on podcasts to get to law school and students would give different pitch ideas. They would pitch me and our producer on this podcast, Evan, would be generous enough to give some of his time and come in and hear the students pitch and give some feedback. And as Evan will tell you, each year we did it, we got some version of relating the law to pop culture, but it seems like she's grown a brand and that the brand talking about the law and pop culture is interesting, but it's also like it seems it feeds her practice.
(37:58):
Again, my father is probably for 42 years, he would take out an ad in the Yellow Pages. So I don't know if you guys know what the Yellow Pages. Have to Google it, but that was his thing where you take out an ad in the Yellow Pages and he literally put out a shingle. My sense of it now is not like that. You guys are going to graduate and you're going to go practice law in the internet age. So what did you think of her use of social media? What do you think it entails for your generation?
Nayeli Diaz (38:26):
I think that the reason legal influencers, people on talking about it in the media is so popular is because the law feels so unattainable for so many people. It feels so out of their reach to even understand. And I think that it's more accessible now. I mean, that's the good side of the internet in general is that it connects people and it makes things accessible in a way that maybe you wouldn't understand. So instead of going to an attorney and paying however much money for a consultation, you could maybe watch a video that explains the basics so you know where to go a little bit more and you're spending your money better than roaming around to a bunch of people and not knowing where you're starting. And so I think that's the reason that so many people are interested in melding it with pop culture and with our real lives because it feels kind of up at the top and it helps bridge that gap
Eve Albert (39:18):
Definitely.
Todd Berger (39:18):
Do you think it's necessary for business? I mean, if you're going to establish your brand or do you think it can be detrimental in a sense like if you're the internet lawyer, is that somehow cheap in what you're trying to do?
Eve Albert (39:34):
I think that I have personally seen in the Buffalo area lawyers, people advertising themselves very pointedly on social media. I mean, I won't name names, but I will be on Instagram or TikTok and I'll see a law firm participating in a TikTok trend and that is how they go about advertising themselves. And honestly, if you're appealing to young people, young people who are going to be staying in the area that you're practicing in are going to eventually be clients of your firm or you'll want them to be. So I think it makes sense to appeal to young people in this way, but I think that the risk comes from other people in the legal field. You might face judgment by other legal practitioners being like, "Oh, they're cheapening their brand or their firm by participating in these silly TikTok trends." So I don't know. I think at the end of the day, if you're getting clients and your practice is up and running, you're pretty well off.
(40:30):
I don't see any problem with that personally, but yeah, I think that there's also really like, what's the word? I want to say hoity-toity, but I don't think that that's the right word. Firms like. But
Todd Berger (40:42):
Yes, yes. There might be a hyphen. I'm not sure. Okay, professor. Yes. Well, it could be hyphenated. I'm not sure, Eve.
Eve Albert (40:49):
But no, there are some firms that are really professional, super professional that we'll probably never see stooping to that level, so to speak. So I don't know. I think that there's going to be a place for both approaches to getting clients, but I don't think either is outwardly wrong.
Todd Berger (41:08):
I don't know. I'm lucky in a lot of ways that I graduated when I did. I don't know. I mean, I've also seen instances where lawyers get in trouble for putting stuff on social media, stuff about judges or stuff about cases, or they might talk really generally. I mean, I remember hearing these stories about criminal defense attorneys who were trying to get business and they would basically do these social media things about how hire me, not the public defender's office because public defender's office is really bad and it would
(41:40):
Say it as a way to drive clients because if you were to, in the past, you were going to maybe do a TV commercial. I think you had to have a certain amount of money to do that. Believe it or not, those ads in the yellow pages were very expensive. They cost a lot and there was only so much you could do in one of those ads. But now I think there's a positive thing. There's a democratization, right? You can just have your iPhone and do your TikToks or it's not that hard to have a podcast or something like that or whatever to a blog to go back to the early 2000s, but
(42:10):
At the same time, there's just more opportunities to say offensive things because you could just ... And I think you have to constantly generate content to keep people interested. So the more you're generating content, the more opportunities there are to step in it, so to speak. And then I start to wonder, is this lawyer working or is just this lawyer on TikTok all the time? But at the same time, if you don't do that, it could be hard. Maybe that's a way to just generate business. And so I don't know, I'm just lucky that that's not something that I have to think about just generationally, how do I use the internet to get business? You guys have to think about it though.
Eve Albert (42:51):
Well, I mean, that's what ... Well, no, I was going to say that's kind of what this is, but I mean, none of us are trying to get business from this podcast. It's more just like this is a facet of our legal careers. It's like, yes, we practice this or we teach that, but also we have been presenting ourselves talking about or having legal discourse in this way. So I think that's something Alicia was getting at. The way that you present yourself online doesn't need to be the way that you present yourself in a courtroom, so to speak. Obviously, don't go on the internet and curse left and right and make fun of people and just be an overall bad person. But I think that I would never speak this way in a courtroom, but I think that engaging in legal conversations casually with you guys in a way that's kind of fun almost is a interesting way to engage with the law and get people not yet practicing to get excited about different areas of the law.
(43:51):
So I think that that's kind of what Alicia was getting at with her content. She doesn't make it for lawyers or necessarily law students. She makes it for the layman, but still it's important to shape the way people see her, whether that's someone that's going to hire her, whether that's someone that is going to practice alongside of her. It's important to shape the way you're seen and the way you engage with the law in a way that's true to yourself.
Todd Berger (44:18):
I just found out what TikTok was yesterday, but I will also tell you that I have checked and the word hoity-toity does have a hyphen. It
Eve Albert (44:28):
Does have a ... Okay.
Nayeli Diaz (44:29):
Sweat thought.
Todd Berger (44:31):
Yes. So I just wanted to set the record straight on that one.
Eve Albert (44:35):
You didn't know what TikTok was or was that a joke?
Todd Berger (44:38):
That was a joke, though I don't really know. I just know it's for videos and stuff, but I'm totally freaked out by social media. My kids, I have kids, they are obsessed with YouTube videos. So my five-year-old, literally my five-year-old just watches these YouTube videos. And on one hand, I'm conflicted because I do think they hear language and conversations in ways and they're age appropriate-ish basically. And so I think it helps their vocabulary and they say things, but at the same time, she said goodbye to her friend at a birthday party the other day and when she said goodbye to her friend, she said to her friend, she says, "Bye, whatever." And she said, "Make sure you like my
Eve Albert (45:22):
Channel." You know what? She's already forming her brand. You have to respect that.
Todd Berger (45:28):
That's true.That's right. I'm going to tell her that Evelyn Berger, you're really working on developing your brand, so it's great. Thanks to our guest, Alicia Hawthorne, the Luncheon Lawyer for joining us for this episode. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the ABA Law Student Division website and become a member. We want to make sure we're making the best content for you. Let us know what you'd like to learn more about by telling us in a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Finally, we'd like to thank our production partners at Moraine Media and to thank the ABA Law Student Division for making this show a reality. We'll be back next month with our next episode. See you then.