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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep18
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Tim Caldwell: [00:00:00] Good morning, Liz.
Liz Herl: That was weird.
Tim Caldwell: Good morning, Liz.
Liz Herl: Good morning.
Tim Caldwell: No, weirder than us both wearing the same colored shirt. Anyhow. Great minds. Yes. Anyway, what are we doing today?
Liz Herl: Dopamine.
Tim Caldwell: Mmm. Dopamine and addictions. So.
Liz Herl: Well,
I mean, yes, we're going to talk about addictions, but the, the importance of the, the mental health components and the physical, all the stuff, all the things, [00:01:00] all the things.
But I'm gonna let you start it off because you've done some research you want to kind of brag about for a minute.
Tim Caldwell: I'm not. She's not bragging. We've talked about doing this talk about dopamine in the past, and we just thought we'd make a whole episode on the thing. But I like the idea that instead of making it just this chemistry thing and, That's kind of boring.
We'll leave it more as a lay lecture But the idea is to just make people more aware of what dopamine is, and what its function is, and how it's produced, and what it's supposed to do for us if it's in normal condition, and when it's kind of out of condition. I'm going to give props out right away to most of the professionals who've come before me as I as anybody should there are doctors out there who do amazing work, and I I really want to talk about Dr. Anna Lembke She's the Professor of psychiatry at the Stanford University School of Medicine. She's the chief of the standard addiction medicine dual [00:02:00] diagnostic clinic She's also the author of The Dopamine Nation, that is, Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence.
Now, her book was a top seller, and it's quite amazing, but as I may have mentioned, Andrew Huberman is the first one who really helped me have a better grasp on dopamine beyond my chemistry, organic chemistry, and biochemistry. You'll find that having a better grasp of what, where it actually is and what it actually does makes it much more tangible for, for people.
So, not to get too dry on the matter, but we want to talk about really what dopamine is, right? So, you have questions for me? You have anything?
Liz Herl: No, I was just going to say that just to kind of, the reason why that's giving just like a layman's terms as we're trying to do that is because there is a lot of great information out there kind of talking about the
technical function Yeah. Of how dopamine works on us, or within us I should say, and this is more of just an overview of [00:03:00] understanding how that affects our day to day lives, our behaviors, our responses, and not necessarily just the cellular ins and outs.
Tim Caldwell: That's right. It's the importance of, of a dopamine is everyday life and, and truly I want to make sure that people understand that dopamine is.
It's one of the most primal and important catecholamines, which is a neurotransmitter, that exists in our body. Because without it, we would never be seekers. I always use the example of primitive man. If we weren't always looking for the most primary and most basic needs in our lives, and I mean literally seeking them out, to either have better accommodations, better food, better mates, we would probably languish.
So the idea behind this is if primitive man were hunting, and he made a kill, he's put in a great deal of [00:04:00] effort to make this. When he makes the kill, that's the reward. Right. That's literally the dopamine fix. But mind you, after that meal, it has to all start over again. And this is where the seeker is.
You can't just lay around and chew on bones for six days. You have to go hunting again.
Liz Herl: Right.
Tim Caldwell: And without dopamine, that wouldn't exist.
Liz Herl: Well, and that's what I was going to say. Yeah. So, you've kind of just done that. You've buttoned it up pretty good. But like, the Blanket question. What is dopamine?
Tim Caldwell: So dopamine is a catecholamine.
It's a neurotransmitter So in our nervous system we have let's say this is how I learned it and it's a good way to make a grasp a grasp of it we have the very primitive brain that comes right off of our spinal cord those centers in that primal brain May have, may have things to do with some sensory, some motion, and with our autonomic nervous system.
So that's breathing, [00:05:00] respiration, what needs to happen to stay alive, heartbeat, and all those things. Over that, lies a limbic system. A limbic system is our midbrain. That is what encapsulates all of our emotion. That's probably the best way to describe that and just leave it there. That's really kind of our emotional part of the brain.
But over that and what many people refer to as the new brain is the frontal cortex. It's very much like a helmet. It's new growth if you want to think of it, but it makes our, it gives the brain this big um, covering. And that region of the brain has to do with all of our decision making.
If the brain is like an engine, and it's supposed to motivate us, this is what gives us brakes. This is what puts the brakes on all the motivation. Or we'd just be these impulsive beasts, right? Right. So, dopamine in itself, if the signaling is supposed to take part, it has to go through what's called our [00:06:00] nervous system.
And what happens is neuron to neuron communication, it's not just like one big wire that goes someplace, it actually, communicates with other ones because they go to all different areas, and that's called a system of redundancy, neither here nor there, but when one trans, when one neuron is trying to communicate with another neuron, there's a gap, and that gap is, called a synapse, and what's happening is, Neurotransmitters are emitted.
So this comes from the brain and it's admitted out into this neurotic this synapse over here, we have receptors and they're specifically designed to pick up neurotransmitters that will mate with those things for a specific reason and specific dosages. However, there are times when those things will.
They actually remove themselves from the gap. Now, there's some theory behind how that works, but essentially what happens is [00:07:00] that neurotransmitter isn't making its, isn't making it, or it's making too much. And that's when we talk about the importance of dopamine. And that dopamine is very much it's full excuse me, it's basic
requirement is only to motivate us, only to keep us in motion and seeking things. It's the pleasure and reward. It is literally the, the, a dog treat when the dog does right. It's the pat on the head. It's the attaboy. You in basic terms, again, you found good shelter, you found good mates, you found good food, right?
And that's the reward system. So that's what dopamine does.
Liz Herl: That was very well detailed.
Tim Caldwell: Well, thank you.
Liz Herl: And in layman's terms, it's the feel good medicine.
Tim Caldwell: It is the feel good medicine. It is.
Liz Herl: It's the way when we accomplish small tasks and we feel something really, we find satisfaction from that.
That's good old friendly dopamine. Mm hmm. So that's [00:08:00] a really great way of explaining it in detail, but it is the feel good. It's the one thing that's what, that's what we're going to talk about how we monitor that or we, how we utilize it.
Now, one of the things I was going to go into
it's definitely worth mentioning if we're going to talk about dopamine we talk about endorphins and like what do those do?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, what's the difference? And you know, I wanted clarification on that too. I've never really been asked What's the difference between a neurotransmitter and an endorphin? But an endorphin is released from, released into our bodies and they're the painkillers Right?
, so I'll dip into Huberman here a little bit. Huberman reminds us that there is a center of our brain called the anterior cingulate gyrus. And it's a bit of a small area in our brain. It has an anterior and posterior component. The anterior component has the nuclei. And in the nuclei, it allows us to do things.
It's almost like your free will area of your brain. And [00:09:00] it's the, it's the one that says, this job may be hard, but I'm going to do it. It goes hand in hand with that dopamine reward system. I don't want to do this, but I do it. And at the end, there's some pleasure to it, right? So the pleasure and pain occupy the same centers of our brain.
And it's constantly back and forth. So if you're doing something you really don't want to do, maybe it's even painful. Those endorphins help kind of take away and Distract perhaps, but maybe um, postpone real pain so that you can get through it. And then the dopamine is there and the endorphins finally rush in and you feel fine
Liz Herl: Until they wear off.
And then that's where you get where people are from any type of injury, car accident, car accident or, you know, violent fight or something. I didn't even know I was hurt.
Tim Caldwell: Life saving event. Yeah
Liz Herl: it's like, oh my goodness, well, hey, you know, you got something going on there.
Tim Caldwell: You got a knife in your back.
Liz Herl: Yeah, exactly. It's like, what? And there you go. Endorphins.
Tim Caldwell: Happens all the [00:10:00] time. Yeah, that's, that, it's good to define the two. The idea behind the Pleasure and Pain Center is without having to look at everything broad spectrum, if we were to just say, look, There are things in life that are not very pleasurable, but I gotta do them, right?
And that is, I gotta go to this soul sucking job. Now, the downside to that is, there are some people who go to these jobs so long, they use that to motivate themselves because when that, when they get off work, woohoo, right? Then the dopamine kicks in. That's when there's no need for endorphins, you're feeling no pain at all, right?
Liz Herl: Well, and going back to dopamine, that's kind of where we're, we're going into how to. Understand like what's the catch of having too much dopamine or having not enough dopamine, right? How do we monitor, you know, how do we monitor that and You know, when you're talking about that primitive mind of, you know, go out, accomplish your task of, you know, killing the animal coming back [00:11:00] in, and then you, you can rest for your evening or whatever it is.
Well, we don't live in a society that we're living in. We call it now constant gratification, but it's like constant reward system.
And it's You know, like social media is, I mean, I know we talk a lot about that and I'm, but it's telling that every time we're, we're looking, we're searching, it's like, oh, well, this, this is a validator.
This gives me pleasure. This is all the things, right.
And then how do we monitor that and understand when we're, when it's going outside of pocket.
Tim Caldwell: So let me, I'll, I'll give you two examples that Dr. Lemke brings up. First of all they engineered some I think they were mice or rats. They engineered them so that they don't get any dopamine to their own brains.
They're not producing dopamine in their own natural brains. So, what they're doing then is they're subjecting them to dopamine. They're actually giving them injections or whatever it is. So what happens is When there's no dopamine in the brain, they can feed, they can [00:12:00] literally hand feed the animal, it does fine.
But if I put the food at an inch or two away, it won't make the effort to go eat, and we'll starve to death. I find that bizarre, but that is part of the dopamine process is to go and seek, right? Well, there's the food go get it. It doesn't do it. It has no drive. Now. Here's the other site And this is one that we can we can come back to when we talk about addiction in that and that is this is this Is actually something quite?
relatable to myself and just a revelation just recently is that when we talk about trauma And how those, and trauma, how it works with the human body.
And our chemical makeup.
And the chemical makeup. Trauma is in itself a live in ghost that will haunt you forever. Right?
Liz Herl: Unresolved, yes it will.
Tim Caldwell: Unresolved. And depending on big T, big T, little T trauma, right? Is it a series of little things? Is it one big event? Whatever that causes. So, here's what I'm going to [00:13:00] relate to you in the next study. Rats are rats, mice are put in a cage. They are then given a device, a lever that they can push down that will give them cocaine.
Okay, and I've heard Dr. Peterson talk about this too. But what they'll do is that they, once they learn that it gives cocaine, they will just cocaine, they will just go at it, go at it, they will not stop. However, over a period of time, if you take the cocaine away and they still push the lever, they will learn to just Stop.
They just don't do that. Now. Here's the interesting part about trauma is that it can go for weeks literally almost the lifetime of that rodent that's in the cage, and if they give it an electric shock, it will run right over to that lever and push it, because that's what it knew to regain that huge satisfaction, this dopamine fix.
And I find that incredible that it literally indicates [00:14:00] that no matter where you are in your time, wherever that trauma was, whatever you needed to do to get that dopamine fix, you'll fall back onto that, just like a crutch,
Liz Herl: and that's the neurological part where, when I say trauma gets lodged in the brain and in the body, that's exactly what happens and people want to call, you know, triggers or relapses, what pushes us back towards something that was not helpful to us before.
That's right. Well, something got ignited and it just pressed on you and then you go right back to whatever it is. And then that's where it's unfortunate where things come in. It's like, well, now I've, I've messed everything up because I've done this and I don't know why.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And then there has to be a reset.
So how do we reset these things? Now, we're slowly drifting into the addiction part of it. Okay. And we can go back, we can bounce back and forth. But as we talk about this dopamine fix, and now I have this overabundance, so, it's like a, they use a scale. I say that our body is a biofeedback loop.
Now what that, [00:15:00] what that is, is, okay, I'll use my stomach as an example. My stomach produces gastric acid. Now, we know that its process should be normal, that when I take in food, the gastric acid digests that food. to the extent that it can go on and do its function. If it's out of whack, meaning I think I'm producing too much acid, I might take an exogenous, product, and dampen the, dampen the response.
So, Now I've taken something and I've reduced the gastric acid. So the body responds by making more acid. Right? And as it makes more acid and the other ties off, now I have this overabundance. So I am no longer in equilibrium. I am no longer in homeostasis. The same thing happens in our brain. Correct.
There is dopamine, which is the pleasure part of it, and there's pain, which is the other part. And they're constantly going back and forth. Now dopamine is naturally secreted all the time, so there is a part. [00:16:00] So I would venture to say in a normal situation, it doesn't fluctuate much, but it's still going back and forth.
But now you bring in. extreme trauma or look, we don't have to go to extremes, but whatever may push comfort, but may ever may ever push down it. Let's say I break my leg, all these endorphins, all these catecholamines, all these neurotransmitters, they push down on this pain cycle. It's looking for anything to get out of pain, right?
So then that's when we introduce. external. That's opiates. Right. But it never goes back to balance. It always overshoots. Right. So your body's constantly back and forth until the, until the pain is gone. Literally the pain is gone. It's a tricky situation. And now we're talking emotions, not just physical response.
Liz Herl: Right. It, it, it just domino effects into all of those aspects. It does. Yeah. And ~I, ~I don't think that, you know, when you're talking about where like leaning into the addiction side of this, of dopamine, it's an understanding where we're at society wise is. The [00:17:00] conversation I believe around what we are seeking more of.
So when I was saying the primitive idea of like going out and doing this and this was what you did. You went out, you did this and you came home. Well, we're constantly looking for the highs in life. I was talking to you about that earlier is what's my next big, you know, hit now this can go definitely relate back to insecurities and self trauma areas where you have trauma locked in.
We're looking for validation. Mm hmm. And I seek out validation. Those are quotes. If you're not watching, you won't see my quote hands. And that actually is the, I'm looking, I'm rushing into finding a reward of feeling good about myself. Those like you talk about those attaboys and good jobs like those little like I said, those are hits.
Those are hits. Yeah But what do I do to get more of them?
Tim Caldwell: That's right and
Liz Herl: consistently Consecutively all the time. That's right And the reality of it is our bodies and brains should not be in that high level of extreme [00:18:00] dopamine all the time It's very unhealthy.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: and but society drives us to that.
Yeah, like You know, do you want to be something big? This is what it takes. Yeah, and then you fall
Tim Caldwell: into So here's so you bring up an interesting point. Is that dopamine and serotonin they have some in inverse Qualities to right if I drive my if I'm really pressing hard on the pedal for dopamine My serotonin levels can be messed up now.
I have this thing excitability this I mix I have this excitability at nighttime and I can't rest Cause I'm all revved up on this, got to get it done. I'm, there's a lot of thought, there's a lot of energy that's going into this. Now I can't rest where, where, where serotonin is a precursor to melanin or melatonin, not melanin.
But what happens is until I get those things leveled out, I'm not resting well, right? Something has got, something's really got that pressed hard. Why can't I get this down? Well, that's what has to happen. We need to figure out how [00:19:00] can I, either I can give myself more of this and try to lift this up, or I can, I need to address what's going on with the dopamine thing.
What is it that's got me and We're going to talk about trauma. We're going to talk about trauma or the need to perform for what we perceive to be better acceptance or felt love, feeling loved, or those types of
Liz Herl: things. Sure. And that's why people unintentionally fall into these areas of addiction.
Because if I don't. Receive what I'm seeking out here I can find it somewhere else. That's
Tim Caldwell: right
Liz Herl: and One of the things I was going to mention is the high number of Comedians that are actually extremely depressed
Tim Caldwell: It's
Liz Herl: it's really quite sad and then a large number that have lost Yeah.
Due to depression and the idea that, you know, you're always happy, fun, and engaging and on and you have to be presenting all the time and going and how exhausting that must be to be.
Tim Caldwell: [00:20:00] Yeah.
Liz Herl: But you're constantly put into that state of mind. I would say
Tim Caldwell: the same of any celebrity or rock star. When you can stand on a stage with 10,000 people screaming your name, I can't imagine, that's got, that's unreal.
Oh, to step, the dump is like massive to step off the stage. Boom. Yeah. I was like, yeah. I was gonna say
Liz Herl: the re that the dump in your, like the chemical dump is like, oh my goodness. Oh yeah. You know, almost godlike mentality. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's like, oh my
Tim Caldwell: gosh, you love me. But the aftermath has got to be excruciating, right? I can't, I can't imagine being instantaneously, you know, you have godlike presence and then you step away from that and you're nobody. People don't even recognize you. Who is this guy? That must be excruciating. It is interesting. I didn't expect you to bring that up about comedians, basically the tears of a clown, is that all of this external activity that you have to make yourself feel good is so artificially produced,
Liz Herl: right?
And the addressing of that [00:21:00] to, you know, listeners and viewers, like, what are you putting in play in your life right now that drives? Yeah, maybe an. Intentionally these addictions.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah
Liz Herl: because of unhealed trauma.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely You know and it doesn't have to be just humor It can be a lot of you know, just posers right if you if you're
Liz Herl: keeping up at the Jones's
Tim Caldwell: If you're keeping up with the Jones's and you're just making it rain everywhere But you're not getting your bills paid and you're it's not good at home.
Liz Herl: Well, that's a rough
Tim Caldwell: life
Liz Herl: Potentially, but I would even say, you know celebrities or in any individual alike that if you are able to Make a living or do the things you those are the little checklists in our mind of saying why I am successful because of a B C, but why do I still feel so empty? ~Oh, sure.~
You know what I mean? I might be able to pay my bills. I might be able to have these successes, but why do I still feel so empty? That's right,
Tim Caldwell: yeah.
Liz Herl: ~And that internal look within of saying there's, ~there's parts of me that are broken that I don't look at.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Again I'm [00:22:00] spacing for a second the actor that really spoke to his level of depression of, it's better to, you know, be in this role.
Presenting this character that everyone adores that then you get acceptance in. Yeah. And, and the reality of it is, is this, the internal suffering that's actually going on. Yeah. Jim Carrey. That's who it is.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah.
Liz Herl: Yeah and ~I, ~I really admire his sharing of his story. Well,
Tim Caldwell: he's come, he's come a long way.
Liz Herl: Yeah. Oh, it's incredible. Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Cause I, I, I, I remember when he was, I remember that.
Liz Herl: Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: I wouldn't have been surprised if he didn't follow in the footsteps of Robin Williams.
Liz Herl: Well, I, think which is another incredibly unfortunate. Oh, there's a bunch of depression, right? There are a bunch of them.
But the importance of like sharing that, that's the point of what we're doing today is when we're talking about how our brain and things are things I would say our brain and chemicals respond in our body and why that happens. We go into [00:23:00] this self loathing and Negative feedback of self of like, why am I the way that I am?
Yeah. Well, maybe give yourself a little self compassion Yeah, that is and so seek that out like we're talking about what happens in our brains that we were sometimes we don't get to we're in it before we can stop it. Yeah. Like, our body, our reactions are, and I'm like, oh, I don't want this, I don't want this.
This doesn't, this isn't helpful for me. I might be in the action of the addiction. I'm picking up the drink knowing I need to not do this, but I'm still drinking it.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And then it's like, why do I do this?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Versus like, it's not. You know, or why am I like this? It's, it's like, I need to figure out why I, I feel this way.
Like, it's not about the, I, I shared that with you before. It's not about the drink. It's about why I drink.
Tim Caldwell: It's true. And, I have lots of examples of people who, man, they were [00:24:00] on the wagon. And then they had a car accident, which I witnessed. One of the passerbyers offered him shelter in his car.
And he offered him a drink and he ended up in the ER. He ended up in the ER, this alcohol induced, I mean, he'd been on an abuse. He'd been on all of these things to keep this under check, but this big trauma, he didn't even think about it. He just,
Liz Herl: that's exactly
right
Tim Caldwell: he just, yeah, it's crazy because these are, these are people you think they're really strong willed people, but we're all broke.
Liz Herl: Well, and going back to what you're talking about when we see people do it, we've talked about this earlier. The extreme sports, like where we're getting the bigger hit, we're needing the bigger hit. Yeah, I'll share stats with that. Yeah. And why that transpires. Yeah. First off, it's been glamorized in, like, you know, you want to get down in the mud and crawl.
You know, you're going to achieve this. Yeah. And it's like, yes, I can.
Tim Caldwell: So those, those races that you're talking about, Tough Mudder, the Spartan Race, there's, there's a whole slew of them. Those things have gone [00:25:00] up in the last 10 years, I think like 3, 000 percent, right? That's, it used to be just this niche thing and then it caught on.
Now they're not all diehards, but the popularity is, and here's, here's what I shared with you. Peterson brings this up plenty of times and he's quoting another author, but there is, there will come a time and we'll continue on this thing, how life has gotten easy for us. He shares that there will come a time when our life will be so destitute from.
Stimulus that will start breaking things and tearing things down just to have an emotion, just to
Liz Herl: have a response,
Tim Caldwell: just to feel something.
Liz Herl: So I don't, this makes me segue right into something I shared with you. I'm like, have you ever saw squid games? Yeah, watched it, watched it. And that's essentially everything.
Yeah. The most unbelievable, like, oh my goodness, like, but they have an [00:26:00] opportunity Yeah, we talked about this because, They have an opportunity to remove themselves from this, I mean, you're, you're going to die situation, but before you vote, look at this money that's dropping down. Right. And it's just, it's saying, it's all of that.
Yeah. Lightening up your brain.
Tim Caldwell: Essentially, what people forget is you are risking your life, not just hard times, because everybody always thinks it's going to be the other guy, right? That's the smoker and his friends are dying from cancer. It's the other guy. It's the obese person. Everybody else gets diabetes.
It's the other guy. You've dodged a bullet over and over. It's going to catch you, but in the squid games, they're given the option to vote. Then they can vote themselves right out of the game if they, if a majority will vote. Prior to voting, what do they do? Well, they, you mean the crowds themselves?
Liz Herl: No, this is what I'm talking about with dopamine specifically.
Prior to voting, they have this huge [00:27:00] pig that they are, and they're dropping down and they're making the sound, cha ching, cha ching, like, and everyone, you see everyone's face, like the actors do a great job of like, Oh my goodness, that's going to be mine. Like, so actually. Everything that I just saw people that just lost their lives and all these things that just happened.
~It's~
Tim Caldwell: gone.
Liz Herl: It's not gonna happen to me Yeah, because I'm gonna win that
Tim Caldwell: that's right.
Liz Herl: And then they go and then they cast a vote and everyone's like, well, you know It's not that bad. I mean I might die We
Tim Caldwell: talk about this because ~I ~I used to do time in a casino And to see people come through the door and you'll see people who can and can't but they have with absolute resolve today's tonight And every time I come in that door, it's the same result.
Tonight's the night. And you know what? They'll leave every single time with their tail between their legs. And it's the damn machine. It's a damn machine. Is it? Nobody made me come in here. Well,
Liz Herl: and it's like the seeking. So we're talking about people seeking something. Seeking, you [00:28:00] know, whatever that is. I mean, it's a numerous amount of different things that we're looking for.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: But when we look at things and. We are actually, believe it or not, built for perseverance. Yes. We really are built for perseverance. We're, we're built. We're not showing that. That's right. That's right. We are, you know, so we get kind of lost in I, I would definitely say lack of accountability or insight to push forward, but we are really built for perseverance.
Tim Caldwell: Yes. We are creatures created for famine and scarcity. And competition. It is only in the last 200 years, maybe 180 years. It's only been in the last 50 years we've had a hot shower. Right? But up to that point it was cold, either cold showers or you had to heat the water and sit in the tub the whole bit.
But as things get easier and easier, closer and closer, readily and more readily available, all I gotta [00:29:00] do is scratch on some glass. There's my food. Scratch on some glass and there's my entertainment. Scratch on my glass, there's pornography. Scratch on my glass, there's a potential mate. We don't have to do anything anymore.
Liz Herl: Well, that's the exact, that's the statement we're trying to make around dopamine. It's like everything is so readily accessible. To go and achieve something. is it necessary? Because it's all right here. So you hear a lot of athletes and entertainers that are really trying to gear people towards their physical and mental health pieces of being active, taking care of your body, doing these things.
And everyone's like, okay, yeah. Well, that's not really for me, because I don't want to go to the gym. Or, you know, I'll, I'll do that from home, which is not necessarily an out. I mean, you can't do, but Now, there is this new focus of like we need to be active. We need to be. We're just sad that it's not a new [00:30:00] focus, but it's new.
It's a new focus that we should be active and being able to bring that awareness in. What are you chasing? So this kind of goes back into what are the healthy ways of identifying? How do we level out and maintain healthy dopamine within ourselves? And that's a little bit of a tricky situation because society wise, It really sets us up for continuous failure because, as I shared before, we're not meant to constantly be in a high level of dopamine.
That leads to anxiety, depression, and addiction. It does. Because I constantly need, and if it's this, then it's this, and then it's this, and then we just keep going until, you know, oblivion.
Tim Caldwell: I just had this conversation that the answer is very simple, but it's really hard to get them to do it. And that is, it's going to take some effort on your behalf.
The name of my business is Genuine Effort. You have to have that. It's the pillar to, the first thing to work with [00:31:00] me is, you've got to show up every day. And there, there's there is a shopping list of reasons for you not to. It's cold out. It's too far. I'm tired. I'm hungry.
I, there's a million excuses, but if you can just do it, check that off. Dopamine. Right? Right. I go in, Maybe I don't do much. Just going and sit on the bike, 10 minutes, dopamine, because that will grow and that does become a very satisfying feeling. And that in itself exercise is a cure.
I absolutely believe in it.
Liz Herl: Sure. Well, and One of the things that I hear in that is there's also an education for viewers and listeners to have around. It is not that simple of, you know, just go and do because the inability to cognitively process these steps seems so far that I don't have the mentality to make those steps happen.
Yeah. Like, you're like, sure, go [00:32:00] to the gym and be on, be on the bike for 10 minutes. Okay. I don't care to. So here's where I'm saying the education in when we're talking to people, when you're speaking to clients and saying the reality of it is when we don't want to do something. How do we do something small to get that jump start started like we're and it is small sometimes.
It is.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah
Liz Herl: Walking outside your door and you know saying I'm going you are literally going against it the grain Yeah of what your your brain is. Yeah That's exactly right When I don't, people sometimes say, I don't, I don't have any motivation and what motivates me, what gives me my dopamine is not what you're telling me to do.
Like, right. It's like, you're telling me to do hard things. You know, it's really great. I can listen to this podcast all day and they tell me how to you know, make bread or they tell me Here's all these words of affirmation [00:33:00] and that makes me feel good.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: and those action Mobility pieces that I'm not desiring to do to actually take stock of my body.
Yeah, that's way harder
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah,
Liz Herl: and I don't want to do that the important part is a you should be healthy you'd wonder you wouldn't keep track of that because Our body starts falling back a lot quicker now, but how do I, how do I do that? Like, how do I, there's so that when I say that there's just an education and understanding your brain Yeah, be working against you and yeah, what did you condition it to to get your dopamine from and how do I?
You know take stock of that and say, you know, does this You're right. I can get food and everything from my desk. Let me tell you
Tim Caldwell: how fragile that balance is. Is that no matter how long you've been training, if you have a break that's too long, one that you didn't want, maybe it was a week and you only planned three days, maybe it's two weeks and you only planned one week, everybody is reluctant to come back to the [00:34:00] gym because you feel like you're starting at zero and you're not.
You have come from zero way down there all the way up to here. You're not starting down there. You're starting, right? where you are, it's where you're starting. And depending on your, depending on your particular focus, are you a strength athlete or you just want to be fit? Do you want to lose weight? Oh, well I went on, you know, I took three days off and I blew up my diet.
Now I got to start all over. No, you're not starting all over. You've made progress. You're starting where you left off. You know that that was the wrong thing to do. Okay. Lesson learned, moved on. But unless, unless you, teach people to be aware that the dopamine comes from the accomplishment and the very good.
Yes, but more Intently from the attempt right action. It's making the action something With purpose now Simon Sinek will tell you Another author and a great speaker. He'll tell you it's more about your why [00:35:00] now. I've heard a lot. I've heard every inspirational motivational speaker that you can hear of.
I've heard, I've actually seen Tony Robbins twice in person. Motivation is temporary. I can motivate you. And I think I inspire and motivate people well, but I can tell you, if I don't see you in a week, I can't, your motivation needs to re spark. And all I have to do is step back into your head and say, you, these are your promises.
You said you wanted to do this, don't, you have grandbabies, don't you want to play with those grandbabies? Don't you want to pick them up? Don't you want to roll in the grass? If you want to do those things, we have to make changes over here. If we sweat more in training, we bleed less and more, right?
That's what this is all about. You need to go live your life. This is what this is about. The dopamine comes from that accomplishment. Look what I've done. Every single day you step out of your house, you get done with the gym, and you, look what I've done. I don't know anybody who doesn't feel better. You, you know yourself that if you miss training, it's a long day.
[00:36:00] Right. But you train, feel great. That's the important, that's the important message in the whole thing.
Liz Herl: Right. And So it to coincide with that. I think there is that education of when people are like, I don't know why I See and hear, you know, this discipline talk and this motivation talk and I'm I'm trying to find it and It's understanding.
That's when we're going right back to trauma. Yeah, like when we're our own worst enemy Yeah, because of unresolved pieces of us. Yeah feeling like there's You know, all these heroic ideas of like, there's your starting point is today and you know, it's great. It's really great talk But for someone that feels like yeah, that seems Unimaginable for me.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: it's the understanding of maybe I have to work on the internal parts of me
Tim Caldwell: Yes
Liz Herl: versus the physical ones just yet. Like I have to get See why I hold myself back, why it is, because the constant shaming and belittlement and degrading of self that [00:37:00] goes on when I don't achieve, or when I'm out of the gym for a period of time, or when I blow up my diet, or when I get in an argument with my spouse, or whatever it might be, all of those defeating pieces that drowned us out, That's when we go into, well, what will make me momentarily feel better.
Tim Caldwell: But you know, Liz, the absolute worst critics we have are right here in our scene. Oh yeah, 100%. You and I talk about this all the time. It's easy to say, hey, give yourself some grace. And then we tear ourselves apart. We have to, everybody has to have somebody to help keep us going. Keep each other in check and accountable.
Is it dude? Shut up. You know you I'm tired of this You you work hard you you pay your bills your kids Love you all that all of that has to go into the speech that you're giving. I'm not blowing smoke I'm telling you you you you you've done well and sure you're not doing you're not where you want to be.
Okay, I'm not either Nobody is we look tomorrow. We start over
Liz Herl: right
Tim Caldwell: right now. We start over. However, they were
Liz Herl: [00:38:00] And then my approach to that is, why do you talk to yourself that way? Yeah. And you know, it'd be interesting because if I talked to myself that way in front of you, you would tell me to not talk to myself that way.
And, until we address why we're speaking that way. Yeah. Because, yet again, this cycles back to that dopamine of when we get around our cheerleaders and our encouragers, we're getting those hits, but we're not resolving anything internally. And then, again, it's like, oh, well, You know, when people say that you have an addictive personality, it's I like going around people that make me feel good
Tim Caldwell: that
Liz Herl: have a good, you know, energy that are funny there, you know, they're not, you know, super, you know, dark or depressed or, heavy
Tim Caldwell: soul sucking.
Liz Herl: Yeah. And everyone's like, Oh, I want to go with them. They're really, really fun because they have. That's that comedic kind of an unintentional piece that people have to kind of shoulder.
Tim Caldwell: Here's something I'll pose to you. In the anybody, any shape positivity thing, do you think that, do you think that people who [00:39:00] tell themselves that are morbidly obese and they say that my, my body's beautiful, do you think that there's a dopamine?
Do you think that they receive a dopamine?
Liz Herl: Absolutely, and I'll tell you why. We can train our brains. Yeah. We can train our brains into believing anything we want. The most, it happens all the time, the most unreasonable things. It's like we question people like, do you really believe that? Like, that's something you really think?
Yeah. Yes. They absolutely believe that because just like, you know, I would say, you know, really, really perfected. People that have perfected lying to a level that you would believe that if they said no, the sky is really orange You would absolutely believe them just because of the way they deliver information
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: which are really highly level manipulators, but they believe it.
We're taught this goes right in I mean, this is a whole other topic, but we're talking about Colts here.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: and how This was the only way. [00:40:00] This is all I knew. So this is what I believe to be true. And that's why we have such divisions in society now because we have certain belief systems that are clashing against one another because of how we derive information.
Tim Caldwell: You know what I, In the talk that Dr. Lucky was in, she points out that a patient one time said that I'm not just a failure. I'm the center of the universe and everybody, Circles around my failure because I'm that big of a failure and then there's nothing, you know, there's No, there's absolutely no doubt.
You can't say that Embroiled in his own description is a certain mark narcolepsy, right? Or not narcolepsy Narcissist narcissist. He's you're not just a failure either Well, you're the biggest failure and almost everybody look at me because I'm the big that's interesting. Yes.
Liz Herl: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It's yeah But it's leaning too into, into pain, like understanding, leaning into pain, you're leaning into centers, right, right.
Exactly. You're just leaning into that pain [00:41:00] and, you know, revolving around the justification of it. And then my behaviors and actions are according because this is my life. And so for, therefore I was just sharing with you I think it's really important. That people experience the ebb and flow of life.
Like you can be at the bottom of the barrel and you can be at the top. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like that's life though. Sure. There's this I and yes Dr. Peterson, I was listening to her reel the other day, like there's this idea that life wasn't supposed to be challenging and hard and difficult.
Tim Caldwell: Lie.
Liz Herl: You're not living every day in like Margaritaville.
And that you have some hardships. It's like actually you're grinding all the times and momentary moments of margarita. And that's the somehow that can, that there's a misconception out there of that's been reversed in some way.
Tim Caldwell: That's the life, the utopian, the utopian view.
Liz Herl: We're talking about belief systems now of that have encouraged that idea.
This is wrong. Like I shouldn't have to do this. It's really quite sad when I see people have [00:42:00] made you know, videos of people having a very difficult time having to attend work and But they're truly in that state of disbelief. Like, I really have to go to work all the time. Like, I have to work, you know, not four hours a day.
You want me to work eight hours, my heavens? Nine or twelve, you've lost your mind, you know. And they are at it by point of despair. Where else? the other generations might find that a little appalling.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. I watched one where HR was calling and the one person wouldn't turn on her camera.
And they said, please turn on your camera. And she's actually in a sunbed and she's got the little goggles on. I'm a little busy today. I'm not going to be in. Right. And they're like okay, but that is true. That really does happen. I know I've been on the wrong side of it. So let me point out the one thing about The body positivity thing again.
They've spun that into a lucrative career. And you know, we see this all the time. And everybody does, is that these people have spun it [00:43:00] into a positive career. I will say this about the Kardashian family. They were nobodies until people started hating them. And then they became the richest people on earth.
Because they took people's hate and turned it into a business. And that's the bizarre twist. I'm not going to blame it on capitalism. It's that people feed on the fact that I can tear you down. Makes me feel good. Makes them rich. That's a bizarre twist in our society.
We have, we have totally wandered off, off the tracks what's actually, designed for is effort, right? The reward comes when I climb the tree and I get the apple. That's the reward. It's not supposed to be, I just wait around for apples to drop.
Liz Herl: Well, or I'm going to steal somebody else's victory.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I didn't get an apple because you didn't give me one. Yeah.
Liz Herl: Well, but understanding, again, All of this, in every aspect of [00:44:00] this, more than just dopamine, obviously there's a lot of other chemicals going on in this process of what we're talking about in behaviors and actions and seeking and all of that.
Specifically we're talking about dopamine today, is that what's the next, that's what drives us. Yeah. That's what makes us, but without having regulators. Impulse control.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Of saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this feels really, really, really great. No, my goodness. This is awesome. But where's my pullback?
Yeah. How do you know, how do we obtain that? How do we have that, that balance of saying I've definitely used the word humility of knowing when we're boasting too much about ourselves in a way that's not really like, what is this feeding a little bit? Like how, how do we balance?
Tim Caldwell: Here's an example of going to extremes.
A young man this was written up in the Washington Post, I believe. Young man begins a relationship, air quotes, with an AI bot, chatbot. He assigns the chatbot a [00:45:00] avatar. Time goes on. The, the young man ends up killing himself because he thought that this A. I. was an actual friend and that by killing himself, he'd have the opportunity to meet his friend on the other side.
That's where, that's one, that's one of the examples of things that have gone just so off the tracks and he's all alone. Where are his friends? Nobody. And I guess he probably doesn't have any, right?
Liz Herl: The longing for connection and how we seek it is again, that reward system. When we, we hear about the importance of small interactions from our friends and family throughout the day of I hope you're having a good day or the morning or good night or like for instance, I, you know, it's important to show an investment that There's our hits, okay?
When we show an investment in someone else, we [00:46:00] fill it up. We feel like, okay, this matters. Well, we should be investing in one another, but we're kind of, I would say, when we're doing that now, there's a, I would say, a feedback of like, How does this reward me versus like giving willingly without I don't I'm not looking for anything in my return in my investment here Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: This humble brag thing about how virtuous I am.
I hope everybody gets to see me give money to the poor guy That's not that's not That's artificial. But the true benefit comes to you when you have this sense of, it's not just me, I'm taking care of someone else. That's, you've heard me say plenty of times, take care of yourself, because if it's not you you're taking care of, somebody else wants you, or needs you.
And they may not be in your life right now, you haven't met this person yet, but truly I, I believe that that's, that's the case. Now, what I, I want to leave people with the idea that we have the ability to regain. [00:47:00] and restructure the ability to build our dopamine. Yes. Build our dopamine in a habitual manner.
Healthy manner. That's right. I use calendars, right? Because I'm visual.
Liz Herl: I know.
~ ~
Tim Caldwell: I like the ability to look and have people say, Look, if we have a goal, pick a goal. We're going to work towards this goal. And I will circle the goal on the calendar, and I'll go, We're 13 weeks out, 12 weeks, 11 weeks.
I'm counting back to today's date. And then I'm making them see, Oh, I'm running out of time. I gotta get going. Those things put pressure on us to perform
Liz Herl: Which is what we do need That is exactly right goals, which I wanted to make sure we touched on today
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: What are healthy goals that light up and give us, healthy doses of dopamine
Tim Caldwell: right
Liz Herl: versus the procrastinators that rush in and do the very last thing and then you're so overwhelmed, you're so stressed out and you're doing everything.
~That's~
Tim Caldwell: right.
Liz Herl: And you actually don't get the hit of dopamine you're looking for because everything [00:48:00] is so rushed in and erratic.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. No, no doubt. The stressors have squashed whatever that was. And pleasure or pain, whatever it is, even if you accomplish the task, it's probably substandard, but it's, you didn't feel satisfaction in doing it.
I had to do it. So I didn't really,
Liz Herl: you miss all, you miss all the point,
Tim Caldwell: but the idea is lists are the other one now. I've learned a long time ago, don't make lists, especially don't make long lists. Right, make them reasonable. There's only, yeah, be reasonable. How many hours do you have in a day to accomplish this thing?
If you have to get this, this, and this done, well this is going to take
Liz Herl: three hours. It's self defeating then. Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: dedicate a day to that, and surround it with little things, little satellite goals. But more importantly, don't do lists you know you can't accomplish. If you have a weekly list of ten items, just pick three, and do your very, do your level best.
And by the way, be flexible. I can't do this today. Let me pick this one up. Check them off. Check them off. Let's do that act, the very act of checking it [00:49:00] off is an accomplishment. And I will even say, if you want to trick yourself, the very first thing at the top of your list is, make a list.
Check it off. I know that that sounds silly, but your body doesn't know, your brain doesn't know.
Liz Herl: Right, exactly.
Tim Caldwell: You're going through the action. You've accomplished what you said you were gonna do. Am I gonna do all three? Yep, you can even put at the bottom of the box accomplished four goals.
Check. And it's just a process. Pretty soon you gain your feet and now you're standing up. Pretty soon you've got a jog and then your full run, right?
Liz Herl: So when, what I hear there is like the neurological feedback pattern that we create in our minds around a cognitive piece of when we're making goals.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: How we analyze and assess that is everything. I shared with you a few days ago that if we don't rewrite parts of our brain, we go back to habitual pieces of how we respond. Yep. Now, when we're looking at, we'll say lists in this for this instance, [00:50:00] that. Oh my goodness, I can't, you know, the self defeating.
Okay, so no, I'm going to look at this differently. I have to start looking at this differently. So if I put down four items on my list. What I share with people is that if you're put making a list a day Do not start adding to the bottom of the list right you you're just again You're starting and then here comes self doubt.
It's like oh my goodness Oh, you forgot to do this. And then if you don't do this, you're never gonna get this done So all this negative feedback that keeps yeah, you're reinforcing your feedback line that you've always had around And I'm not getting, maybe, maybe a drop of dopamine when I feel like, and all those really encouraging things of where people come to you and say, Hey, that was really great about this.
Yeah. They hit a little less and they hit a little less. Yeah. So you're looking for more. That's right. And then what are we looking more of? Well, you know what I could do, I could go to get a couple of great hits off of, you know, quotes and people that are being empowering on social media.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And
Liz Herl: then suddenly.
When we do [00:51:00] that, we're three hours into social media because I've been looking for all of my hits. And my list has now diminished because I was looking for hits elsewhere. Sure. I mean, so it's like, how do we align ourselves and stay focused on what we're doing? Which is very uncomfortable for individuals because If I've trained my brain to receive feedback in this motion in this way, I'm now wanting to retrain it in a healthy way of receiving dopamine in a fashion that it can process and actually take good care of myself in that way.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. ~I, ~I have something I like to use in~ in organ ~organizational matters where we're trying to cooperatively do something or collaborate in something. I can be a leader. Without being the leader, air quotes. One of the best things you can do for yourself and a business, and the collaborations that you're in, is, you don't want more people in your group.
What you want to do is copy a leader. So, one of the best things you can do to help [00:52:00] accomplish goals, or help accomplish check off lists, is find somebody. Explain it to them, and I'm going to delegate this position to you. That is in itself knocking off two or three things on your dopamine list.
I'm mentoring someone and putting some time into their abilities. I'm encouraging those things are all good. When that thing is finally done, we did that. High five. He gets that too. That'll bolster his. He grows. Now we're growing a team of me. I don't have employees. I've got a bunch of me.
That makes your company just blossom. They blow up. When everybody can do what the boss does, you got a powerful, you got a powerful organization.
Liz Herl: And on the flip side of that, I think the understanding of when you're in the storm alone and you're trying to achieve something solely by yourself. Yeah. Is what, again, what are we saying to ourselves that encourages us to keep moving forward and not seeking something else out and not looking for whatever.
It becomes really overwhelming and [00:53:00] mundane when we're just like, man, I'm just never getting ahead. Like all of these things keep piling up. And I don't receive any of. Those great, you know, kickbacks I normally get.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, but in the situation when you're typically alone one of the best things is to just swallow your pride a little bit and ask for help.
And when you start
Liz Herl: when you start
Tim Caldwell: When you develop that connection and they understand that you need help and then pretty soon that there's a collaboration and an understanding. It takes some pressure off of you mentally and emotionally. The one thing I want to say to that is You're never alone.
You can be as alone as you think you are, but you can always ask for help and you don't want to ask for help from somebody who's You have no faith can get this done. If they've if they've been unreliable in the past, don't rely on them in the future. You're gonna have to find the people, you know, you can't.
Sure. And that's another thing about kind of I've mentioned in the past that one of the best lessons ever taught [00:54:00] to me was by my captain. And he told me one day, he goes, Caldwell, one day, I was in the Navy, he goes, one day, yeah, because I'm old he says, Caldwell, one day you're going to learn that making hard decisions is not easy to be a leader.
And he said, if you picture yourself at sea and you're having to survive, you're going to have people hanging on that can't stay there. And you're going to have to decide, you've got to cut these people loose so that we can do what we need to do. You provide for them, you do whatever you do, you don't want to be heartless about the fact.
But your function as a leader is to save as many as you can. And there will be people who will actively sabotage you, jealousy, hate, revenge, whatever that those words are. There will be people who really want to torpedo what you do. And there will be others who. Inadvertently will do it and they think they're helping but they're not and then there'll be others who just [00:55:00] don't listen to you And you have to cut away the dead weight.
Liz Herl: Mm hmm and So the takeaways of us kind of doing a really, you know generalized overview of today's topic regarding dopamine Excuse me One of the areas that I always focus on is like addressing yourself Why do I, why am I the way, why am I the way that I am, if I can talk. And maybe taking inventory around areas that are unhealed and not looked at.
Yeah. And then how do I do that? Versus always just seeking what comes next, what, what's happening next.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah. True enough. And you know, I want everybody to be, we should all be passionate about what we want to do. Mm hmm. And sometimes you don't know exactly what you want to do.
It's okay. I've told my sons, you can be everything. Mm-hmm . You can be, you can be a firefighter, astronaut, surgeon, you can be all those things. Mm-hmm . Nobody's saying you can't, nobody's saying you have to stick to one. You can change [00:56:00] your mind over and over and over again. Be whatever you wanna do, but you know, along the way, learn how to fix things.
Mm-hmm . Learn how to fix relationships, learn how to be a good friend and reliable and keep your word. Those things help too. That's very, that can be very detrimental when you know you gave your word to somebody and you didn't go back or you borrowed money you didn't pay back or you, man, that could peck at you.
Liz Herl: The way we see ourselves does directly correlate to how we receive dopamine as well. How do you think about yourself? You know, how do you talk to yourself, how do you encourage yourself? So when you say those things about the encouragement of your sons to do these things, it's with an internal goal of achieving, of building, of maintaining.
I mean, there's so many, there's so many levels
Tim Caldwell: to that. Go see. Yeah. Go see. Literally go see. Have an adventure. This isn't for me. Okay. You learn that. Come back. Start over. Don't start over. Go back to school. Okay. You're older now. Maybe you'll have a better you'll accept the education better, you'll accept the communication better, all the responsibilities that [00:57:00] go with the financial investment now better.
Young kids, that's not, that's not necessarily the message. It's, go to school. Well, how am I going to afford it? Oh, who cares about it, we'll worry about it later. That's a terrible attitude. Yeah. You hear me say that college is not for everyone. And my dad used to say the world needs ditch diggers.
It still does, by the way. Yes. And I'd rather be on the end of a shovel earning 20 an hour, honestly, than to be making more money and be miserable. Right?
Liz Herl: So what are your final thoughts regarding dopamine?
Tim Caldwell: I would say this, is that nobody escapes this topic. Nobody escapes the exact same influences that anybody who's successful at does.
It's this overcome attitude that you, you'll have to develop. You gotta get hard sometimes. You have to hold yourself accountable but not too much. You have to surround yourself with people who you, not just idolize, but you think are worthwhile people and let them be mentors and [00:58:00] examples.
Ask questions, never be afraid to ask questions, but when you're in a fix, ask for help. Always ask for help. Somebody will listen.
Liz Herl: I would say my, I guess, final thought would be self regulation is going to be the main indicator of how you regulate your dopamine and in healing internal parts. It's really that simple.
It's a lot of hard work though. It's a lot of hard work to do. What I'm asking or encouraging people to do.
Tim Caldwell: But you know what? Hard work is what makes us No, that's a lot of hard work,
Liz Herl: but that's when I said we are built for perseverance. You are built to go through this.
Tim Caldwell: That's right.
Liz Herl: And you know, I will say one last thing is, and that is, I was sharing with someone the other day They look at their situation as to where they are now and they're like, Oh, but can I do this?
And I'm like, but look what you've already overcome. And that's loss. Like that's when the [00:59:00] light bulb goes up and they're like, wait a minute. I'm like, you know, you've overcome serial losses and you know, your own life was almost lost. Like there's so many things. And when they bring that into, you know, clarity, they're just like.
I can totally do this. Yeah, ~we ~you lose track of what you've already overcome. No matter what it is.
Tim Caldwell: That's true.
Liz Herl: The reflection of yourself is, can be beneficial. Don't go look at all the things you haven't done, or what you lost.
Tim Caldwell: Quit, you know. What did you already survive?
Climbing Everest is one foot in front of the other. Quit looking how far you gotta go. Just take two, three steps, and take another look, or don't look. Just keep your head down and keep going. That's right.
Liz Herl: Get in the grind.
Tim Caldwell: Pretty soon you turn around and go, wow, look how far I came. But you need to take that time to realize that you've invested in yourself and it paid off.
Liz Herl: Very nice.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, thanks, Liz.
Liz Herl: Well, thank you. Thanks, everyone. Go ahead and go on to our socials and do the things that we do there. Like us, comment, subscribe, and thanks for the topic. Yeah, cool. We always go back into and dive into [01:00:00] different areas of this. Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: I like it. I like to revisit things like this because things change and it's nice when we kind of fold other things into it.
Liz Herl: Yep.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Thanks, everyone.
Tim Caldwell: See you guys.