Spirituality and Health with Andy Leaf

PJ is joined by pastor and hospice chaplain Andy Leaf. Together, they discuss the connections between spirituality and health, and what makes the Upper Peninsula of Michigan such a unique place.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, Andy Leaf, the first hospice chaplain in Michigan's upper peninsula (or UP), talks about the way that spirituality and mental health collaborate in end-of-life care.

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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: hello and welcome to.

[pj_wehry]: Hello and welcome. The Chasing the viython. I'm your host. P. ▁j. weary, and I'm

[pj_wehry]: here today with Andy Leaf, Andy Leith is the senior pastor at Cornerstone

[pj_wehry]: Community Church and Iron Mountain, Michigan. He volunteered in Orrphanage and

[pj_wehry]: Hondurus, when he was nineteen and he taught English in China,

[pj_wehry]: And uh today we're going to be talking about how can spirituality help someone's

[pj_wehry]: health, specifically their mental health. But you know I, There's definitely that

[pj_wehry]: whole body, Uh, connection. I think everyone understands that if you're struggling

[pj_wehry]: emotionally or mentally, you're going to have physical struggles as well,

[pj_wehry]: Andy.

[pj_wehry]: Awesome, to have you on the show also should mention you're the best man in my

[pj_wehry]: wedding. We've been best friends for a long time.

[pj_wehry]: Tell us a little bit about your journey and why one. you're interested in this

[pj_wehry]: topic. But uh, even how you came to be a senior pastor,

[andy_leaf]: Yes, Well, thank you for having on a show. P. ▁j, Um, I live in a a region where

[andy_leaf]: Um. whatever modern trends are going on, we seem to get them a lot later than

[andy_leaf]: everybody else, and one thing I'm working on right now is transitioning from

[andy_leaf]: working in a small church to working with a Um, home health hospice team. And Um,

[andy_leaf]: that's that's challenging. Um, my views on reality and Um, spiritual care, and

[andy_leaf]: Um, even what it means to just really live the good life in

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: ways that Um had never occurred to me before. Um.

[andy_leaf]: One of the things that Um, I'm seeing with Uh, with the training I'm going

[andy_leaf]: through right now is Uh.

[andy_leaf]: People use a lot of terms and labels Um interchangeably without defining them

[andy_leaf]: very well. and Um, that can really lead to a lot of embarrassment, and uh, even

[andy_leaf]: extra pain when it comes to dealing with people and and working through Um.

[andy_leaf]: spirituality per se.

[pj_wehry]: All right, talk to me a little about some of those labels.

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, so um, just just the term spirituality itself. I live in Um,

[andy_leaf]: the U. P of Michigan. So the Upper Peninsula, and Um, in the county I live in is

[andy_leaf]: the most churched Um county per capita of all Michigan. In fact, it's actually

[andy_leaf]: one of the most church counties Um in the Midwest, even though it's only about

[andy_leaf]: seven thousand people, most of which are related, and Um highly tribalistic. So

[andy_leaf]: when I was approached with this job to be a chaplain, I'm made certain

[andy_leaf]: assumptions that pastoral care would be like chaplaincy care,

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: and I found out Uh, nothing could be further from the truth,

[pj_wehry]: What are some of those key differences?

[andy_leaf]: Um. the way that spiritual care would be defined as a pastor, especially with

[andy_leaf]: like pastoral care, and I, I work within a system of beliefs, Um, Orthodox

[andy_leaf]: Protestant Christianity. There's a framework to it. Their are expectations. There

[andy_leaf]: are ways in which I can be um, uh, very effective, forceful, um, even

[andy_leaf]: judgmenttal, Um, that are fitting to that belief system,

[andy_leaf]: Um. but when it comes to um, spirituality than chaplancy, care, Um, what I'm

[andy_leaf]: doing is I'm actually working to identify what the individual patient views as

[andy_leaf]: sacred and Um, In some cases that is really tricky,

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[andy_leaf]: just incredibly tricky. Um, when I approach people, I do this thing where Um, I

[andy_leaf]: have like a split second to either empathize with them or not, and if I don't

[andy_leaf]: want to empathize with them, I don't have the energy. Um. I try to find a fault

[andy_leaf]: and as soon as I find that fault, the wall's up. I can look at them objectively

[andy_leaf]: coldly, Um, but I won't be able to empathize or um, even reach sympathy with them

[andy_leaf]: if you will,

[andy_leaf]: and when somebody has a framework or or a a view of life that is not religious,

[andy_leaf]: Um doesn't suit my own. It's very hard to um, empathize with them and work with

[andy_leaf]: them for me, at least with the background I have, and I think it's kind of

[andy_leaf]: partially due to the area and culture I grew up in as well.

[pj_wehry]: So talk to me a little bit. You grew up in Iron Mountain, right, Um,

[andy_leaf]: that's correct.

[pj_wehry]: you? you weren't born there, right,

[andy_leaf]: No, I moved there when I was about four years old.

[pj_wehry]: and so, tell me a little bit more about the culture of Iron Mountain. Uh, you

[pj_wehry]: mentioned the tribalistic side of it

[pj_wehry]: and tell me about how that shaped like your views on things like health and mental

[pj_wehry]: health.

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, so

[andy_leaf]: growing up in the Uh, upper Peninsula of Michigan, Um, the U. Ps. we call it and

[andy_leaf]: being ubers. Uh,

[andy_leaf]: it's it's easy for people to assume that they can understand it. It's rural. It's

[andy_leaf]: Midwest. Um. but there's all these other hidden factors that they haven't been

[andy_leaf]: well documented, but you can experience them very easily. Like, just to travel

[andy_leaf]: from one side of the state to the other takes about ten to eleven hours. and

[andy_leaf]: depending on the weather, you can't even get from one half to the other half, so

[andy_leaf]: people are isolated andcredibly isolated. So friendships relationships, Um, your

[andy_leaf]: your social well beinge. All of that really depends on family units

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: and the family units. Um, don't do much together. They're fairly uh, independent.

[andy_leaf]: Um.

[andy_leaf]: and and they really don't forgive. Like if you have a friend that's a Uuper. and

[andy_leaf]: you guys stop being friends. you'll never pick that friendship back up again.

[pj_wehry]: Interesting

[andy_leaf]: Uh, yes, Now that's just one of those uh, for sure things. And since the

[andy_leaf]: population is so tiny like you pick one smaller mid sized city in Lower Michigan,

[andy_leaf]: and that's going to have you know more people than the entire U. P. combined,

[andy_leaf]: so there aren't many people. Um, you go to the store. you, uh, you, uh, go out

[andy_leaf]: and just go to a softball game And they'll be like half the crowd not talking to

[andy_leaf]: the other half the crowd And it's like it's noticeably awkward.

[pj_wehry]: and that's a regular

[andy_leaf]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: occurrence. That's the way it normally is that.

[andy_leaf]: that's re that. That's like going to Walmart every day for me, people, Pe people

[andy_leaf]: shutting me in line. Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and I'm I'm fairly friendly too.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah, what other? Um, So what are some of the? What is some of the the

[pj_wehry]: causes for that? What it like? I mean there is the isolation. Is there other

[pj_wehry]: historic reasons for this or

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, you could blame. Um, you blame on ethnic settling. You know a lot of lot of

[andy_leaf]: Scandinavian groups move to do mining back in the day,

[andy_leaf]: and from that you can find certain perspectives on of what it means to be to live

[andy_leaf]: a good life and to be a good person. And that's you, self sufficient, and uh, you

[andy_leaf]: don't take things ▁lying down. You have you have guts per se.

[pj_wehry]: interesting, and I, and

[pj_wehry]: cause, I, definitely, uh. I, when you talk about the mining, the mining has kind

[pj_wehry]: of died out, correct.

[andy_leaf]: It,

[pj_wehry]: Yes, and so there's It's also been an economically depressed region and also

[pj_wehry]: there's really long winters, which are all factors for things like depression as

[pj_wehry]: well right.

[andy_leaf]: yes, like there are parts of Scandinavia that are kind of you know as far north

[andy_leaf]: as we are, so it's good stuff.

[pj_wehry]: That's why they

[pj_wehry]: felt comfortable. Yeah, Yeah, no, I remember I. I remember. uhcause, Uh, for

[andy_leaf]: negative, forty winters.

[pj_wehry]: audience, Uh, Becky. Soon I went to college up there and I remember Becky who

[pj_wehry]: worked in the bakery and she'd go out at four thirty in the morning and it would

[pj_wehry]: be negative twenty outside Uh Fahrenheit and she would go and go into the outdoor

[pj_wehry]: freezer to get warm because the outdoor freezer was thirty two or something like

[pj_wehry]: that

[pj_wehry]: people don't understand like I. I. I'd never heard. I had never heard of

[pj_wehry]: Uh snow not being able to snow because it's too cold like that. Like

[andy_leaf]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: blew my mind, or that the snow grips better when it gets too cold, so go go ahead.

[andy_leaf]: yes, yes, it's most places where you can impress people from south that where I

[andy_leaf]: am in the winter. it's as cold Celsius as it is. Fahrenheit

[pj_wehry]: Yes. yes.

[andy_leaf]: Once. Once you get to Negative forty, it's the same. It's just cold and everyone

[andy_leaf]: agrees it's just cold.

[pj_wehry]: Oh, I was just talking to somebody. Um. who? uh,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, I think I, I was poding with someone from England and uh, we started talking

[pj_wehry]: about Wisconsin winters and they' like. Oh, I think it's the same at that point.

[pj_wehry]: I've never encountered that before, but it's the same. Yeah, no, that'.

[pj_wehry]: Oh, man,

[pj_wehry]: uh, do you do you see anything? Um,

[pj_wehry]: So as you, I. I'm curious where you want to go with this. Do you want to talk more

[andy_leaf]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: about? Uh? this S systematic. kind of. Um,

[pj_wehry]: that the system that you're entering in as chaplain, or would you rather talk

[pj_wehry]: about Uh, the communities and how their mental health is formed?

[andy_leaf]: Well, I think they kind of go

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: together. Um, So this this transition I'm excited about, Um. Education I'm going

[andy_leaf]: through is happening because there has never been a hospice team in my county.

[andy_leaf]: Um, If if all goes well,

[pj_wehry]: Oh, not even a chaplain, So I thought it was just a chapelin, There's never been a

[pj_wehry]: team. a hospice team in.

[andy_leaf]: there's never been a home health team for a hospice care

[pj_wehry]: Really okay, I did not realize that

[andy_leaf]: Because when you die you die alone. it's it's just what it is right.

[andy_leaf]: So so

[pj_wehry]: I'

[pj_wehry]: sorry, I shouldn't laugh. but

[andy_leaf]: me being a uper.

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, you know is me being a Uoper, and then Um, trying to make this transition

[andy_leaf]: into health care.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: Um,

[andy_leaf]: it. It's showing me that there are so many um, um

[andy_leaf]: shortcomings and um, narrow ways of

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: thinking that I wasn't aware that I had, and that's that's what I'm excited

[andy_leaf]: about. to be honest. P.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: ▁j um, like you, you knowice, Um, most of my family's in health care. I have two

[andy_leaf]: brothers with their um, bachelors and nursing, my dad as masters in nursing. Um.

[andy_leaf]: I was the only one in my family that didn't go into that,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: so as I'm tipt towing in very slowly. And and things are you know, short staffed

[andy_leaf]: underman going slowly in this process, Um, all my family was like, Yeah, do it.

[andy_leaf]: Go go and um. it's because I'm ignorant towards health

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: care. Um,

[andy_leaf]: to give an example,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: my brother was working on Um, his favorite department floor, which was the e. d,

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[andy_leaf]: and my first response. No joke was, I have no idea. there's an entire floor

[andy_leaf]: dedicated to

[andy_leaf]: erectile dysfunction

[andy_leaf]: and he's like. It's like no, Andy. That's that's that's the e. r. It's been

[andy_leaf]: renamed the emergency department, not the emergency room like that's. That's how

[andy_leaf]: green I am going

[pj_wehry]: oh man,

[andy_leaf]: into this kind of stuff.

[andy_leaf]: And and so some like it's philosophical. Some of it, Um is really just

[andy_leaf]: expectations at certain words creating people, and then some that goes back to

[andy_leaf]: religion. so I'm Im real excited about this topic. To be honest,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, absolutely. um. one of the things that you mentioned, you know you

[pj_wehry]: have that initial moment when you first meet somebody of wanting to either

[pj_wehry]: empathize with them or put your walls up. Um, Obviously you know for your job as a

[pj_wehry]: chaplain, I would guess you want to empathize right, Um,

[pj_wehry]: how

[andy_leaf]: that's the goal.

[pj_wehry]: do you? Yes, how do you find common ground? Um,

[pj_wehry]: and I'm I'm sure. like, uh, you.

[pj_wehry]: that's That's two different questions. How do you find common ground? Uh, with the

[pj_wehry]: sacred with somebody? How do you? What are

[andy_leaf]: Ah,

[pj_wehry]: some techniques you can use or what are ways of thinking that help you empathze

[pj_wehry]: with someone who's different than you?

[andy_leaf]: well, the first thing for me would be that, Um, recognizing that my goal is to

[andy_leaf]: identify what is sacred for this person, and

[andy_leaf]: that Um, that's a huge world that I am. I am not qualified to speak on as

[andy_leaf]: professional. I am finding out that there are so many ways to see that. because

[andy_leaf]: Um, the world's a lot more diverse than the U. P. in beliefs and and cultural

[andy_leaf]: backgrounds and in existential beliefs and values. So as I'm working through

[andy_leaf]: things these people I prepare myself that first, all, my job is to identify, and

[andy_leaf]: I'm and I'm charting that I'm recording it. I'm sharing it with the hospice team.

[andy_leaf]: What these chs let'sper some values, and then spiritual care from that point on

[andy_leaf]: is helping them maximize the relationship that they have with the sacred for as

[andy_leaf]: long as that person has to help alleviate suffering. Um, to bring them a a

[andy_leaf]: greater sense ofness and also, uh, hope,

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: because if they're in hospice, it's because, Uh, the treatments they didn't take,

[andy_leaf]: they move from palliative care over to hospice, and Um, we've got a job to do,

[andy_leaf]: and our, the slogan I keep hearing is Um, it's not about curing, it's about

[andy_leaf]: careing and that sounds really, Um, easy to pick apart and make fun of, But the

[andy_leaf]: more they explain it, the the better it sounds,

[pj_wehry]: it's not about. is it hearing or healing?

[andy_leaf]: it's not about the curing. it's about caring.

[pj_wehry]: Yes, I, No, that actually makes like I, I a man. This has come up in numerous

[pj_wehry]: podcasts. You know, I just did one with Uh, Doctor Richard Keney, and uh, his

[pj_wehry]: uh brother is a doctor, and they, uh. one of the things that like uh, the the

[pj_wehry]: episode I do with Doctor Kney, was on uh, physical touch and how important it was.

[pj_wehry]: And one of the things that has become an issue in Western medicine. Generally, Um,

[pj_wehry]: and obviously we have it is that that we struggle when we can't cure right. Like,

[andy_leaf]: Yes, yes,

[pj_wehry]: what? Like That's something where we're not good at just abiding with somebody in

[pj_wehry]: pain and there are different ways to alleviate that And so Um, can you expand on

[pj_wehry]: that a little bit? What? as Y as you dealt with, Uh, and not you're You're still

[pj_wehry]: in the training side of this correct, But

[andy_leaf]: correct,

[pj_wehry]: how do they teach you to handle Um and deal with death?

[andy_leaf]: um,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, you could take your time on that one. That's

[andy_leaf]: yeah, no. this. This is. this is one of those things where I have to admit. it's

[andy_leaf]: like if I had known this before I started

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[andy_leaf]: training, maybe I would have backed

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: out. Um. One of the first things you want work on is your own personal anxiety.

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: And and that's crazy to think about, Um. But as somebody that does public

[andy_leaf]: speaking and performances, but giving a good performance is often, Um, a high

[andy_leaf]: anxiety experience. It helps you prep and remember, Um, helps of memory delivery

[andy_leaf]: all that stuff, but you bring that that anxious persona into Um. Somebody who's

[andy_leaf]: in their last couple of months of life. It's a recipe for disaster. So the first

[andy_leaf]: thing is you have to deal with your own anxiety before you can really help care

[andy_leaf]: for people.

[andy_leaf]: And the caring is identifying recording listening. Um, not even necessarily

[andy_leaf]: correcting as

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andy_leaf]: much, and also recognizing that you have limitations in your role as there are

[andy_leaf]: limitations to everything.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: Um. It's it's fascinating that uh people assume if they're getting a certain kind

[andy_leaf]: of care that it's Um going to do things that's not Um. like

[andy_leaf]: Chaplains can do a lot of great things. They can be a great support. Um. but

[andy_leaf]: they're part of a team that's really providing Um. alleviation to pain and and

[andy_leaf]: dignity for people that treatment is no longer working for, And that's the

[andy_leaf]: hospice care team.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, I'm just

[andy_leaf]: So, to answer question, but

[pj_wehry]: good. No, no good.

[andy_leaf]: to answer question, it is different for different people

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and like, like for me being a religious leader. the more that they are um

[andy_leaf]: existential beliefs, the more what they view as a sacred has distinctions and

[andy_leaf]: marks. That makes it more like a religion. The easierest we to deal with. But the

[andy_leaf]: further you get away from that and that's rare in these parts, but there are

[andy_leaf]: some. The, when I come into people who have very um, um, eclectic views of

[andy_leaf]: reality of values, Um, the hard it is to identify what they need and have to

[andy_leaf]: admit that I'm limited that way,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: and admit it from the gheto.

[andy_leaf]: So they don't have expectations of me. That just, I don't think with reality.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: um e. it. and in that way it's different from even maybe the rest of your team,

[pj_wehry]: because the rest of your team like human bodies, for the most part share some

[pj_wehry]: characteristics. whereas I think beliefs like you can't be Uh, entirely all things

[pj_wehry]: all people, but Y. something you said that just really

[andy_leaf]: No,

[pj_wehry]: struck me and I think it's very important and this is a challenge to me because

[pj_wehry]: Uh, I was just talking to Uh, my editor, Joe, and Um, I don't even remember how it

[pj_wehry]: came up.

[pj_wehry]: Um, but I was like man. I'm just feeling on edge today and he's like, Oh, you're

[pj_wehry]: always on Itdch. and I, I was like, Uh am my. My. I always seem like I'm about to

[pj_wehry]: like fly off and have a temper. He's like, Oh no, no, no. I' like y. You're just

[pj_wehry]: always ready to go. You're always you have so much, you know, I mean, and he

[pj_wehry]: didn't. He just left at that, but

[pj_wehry]: I know what he's saying it like we talked a little bit more, just like I have so

[pj_wehry]: much energy and I'm always like. Like pushing. That's that's what I do and just

[pj_wehry]: understanding that a weakness for my family. Um, and something Well, I, I

[pj_wehry]: shouldn't say. my mom's actually quite good at it. But week this for me and my dad

[pj_wehry]: is that we struggle with this idea of

[pj_wehry]: um, healing presents.

[pj_wehry]: And that's a ▁j. Really. That's really huge. What you said 'cause I did not. a. I

[pj_wehry]: did not expect that answer at all. Um, and it, but as soon as you said it, I was

[pj_wehry]: like Ah, that's a. That's a blind spot in my own life where I have to reduce my

[pj_wehry]: own personal anxiety. because Th. at this point the psychic pain is one of the

[pj_wehry]: biggest things when someone's approaching the end and to come in and to bring in

[pj_wehry]: this aggressive aura.

[pj_wehry]: You know, I'm like

[andy_leaf]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I. It's just it's Um,

[pj_wehry]: and that's a challenge. It's a challenge to live in that kind of peace. Do you

[pj_wehry]: find any um

[pj_wehry]: resources in Christianity that allow you establish common ground when it comes to

[pj_wehry]: things like peace and uh, biting?

[andy_leaf]: sure, I think

[andy_leaf]: for me, M.

[andy_leaf]: Meditation's been a big thing.

[andy_leaf]: Um, meditating on who I am and what I believe is Um, really the good life

[andy_leaf]: with with people that, Um, at least in the Midwest when people uh, find out that

[andy_leaf]: they have some kind of serious illness. The first thing I almost always hear from

[pj_wehry]: Hm, yeah,

[andy_leaf]: them is well, I've had a good life.

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: That's like the first statement. The second thing they say is,

[andy_leaf]: but

[andy_leaf]: I wish I could have seen my grandkids get married. I wish I could have gone to

[andy_leaf]: Argentina. They have these list of regrets

[andy_leaf]: and one of the things that meditation helps me. It is. Um, No matter what I do,

[andy_leaf]: my goal is that at the end of my life I will look back and I won't want any other

[andy_leaf]: life than the one I've lived. That's the goal

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: And and whatever it takes to get there as far as um, you know, professional

[andy_leaf]: embarrassment, Um, people, not agreeing with me or caring for me as a person not

[andy_leaf]: being important to the people. I want to be important to. All of that just melts

[andy_leaf]: away,

[andy_leaf]: and and people really do want to talk about regrets when they're dying.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: It's amazing how often that comes up,

[andy_leaf]: so emphasizing what the good life is and talking to people about what what they

[andy_leaf]: actually mean by that. Um, I think there's plenty you can find from scripture,

[andy_leaf]: especially in ecclesiasts about this.

[andy_leaf]: Now, why didn't you um le learn to fear the Lord, while you' still young enough

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: to enjoy life? Now it's kind of too late

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[andy_leaf]: and I don't say that to them,

[pj_wehry]: right.

[andy_leaf]: But that's what I'm thinking through and I'm applying in a ways that are

[andy_leaf]: respectful and nurturing to them.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah.

[pj_wehry]: yeah. is there Um and I? Obviously you can't go into specific, so I'm not asking

[pj_wehry]: for that. The. uh, how does that kind of conversation go with somebody when you

[pj_wehry]: when they're dealing with regrets?

[andy_leaf]: Oh, it's

[andy_leaf]: it's um.

[andy_leaf]: It's one of those things where you have to acknowledge that many of these regrets

[andy_leaf]: are kind of too late.

[andy_leaf]: and um, I don't say that. I really don't have to say that, but they know it. They

[pj_wehry]: Yeah know,

[andy_leaf]: know it. I know it,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and Um,

[andy_leaf]: and at that moment I can help them try to maximize what they value. That is

[andy_leaf]: possible if they're looking for those kind of um, uh, solution type therapy

[andy_leaf]: conversations. If they're not looking for that and they don't ask for it and it's

[andy_leaf]: not appropriate and the best I can do is just listen to be honest

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and that, and that feels no awful.

[andy_leaf]: There is this. There's this nurse, Um from Australia, who gave like a list of Um.

[andy_leaf]: Top five regrets that her patients gave for like several decades,

[andy_leaf]: and they all came down to things that Um

[andy_leaf]: to me feel like no brainers.

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[andy_leaf]: like men are always like. I wish I hadn't worked as much as I did, and instead

[andy_leaf]: focused on my kids and my and my companion. Um, you go down this list. I, I wish

[andy_leaf]: I had maintained my friendships. They go down a list of these things, and in

[andy_leaf]: hospice, the best you can do sometimes is just listen because you can't fix all

[andy_leaf]: things you know that late in life. sometimes

[pj_wehry]: Do you find uh? so obviously abiding and listening Are are big parts of this. are

[pj_wehry]: there any? Is there any other practices that you generally find are helpful?

[andy_leaf]: I think with Um.

[andy_leaf]: with, When a hospice team does

[andy_leaf]: explaining to people what they actually have, Um really is helpful.

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: Um, but let make them explain like If you take the words like wholenesss,

[andy_leaf]: holistic and say this is, this is what my team's called an interdisciplinary

[andy_leaf]: group.

[andy_leaf]: Certain words

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[andy_leaf]: sound more enticing than

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[andy_leaf]: others, right

[pj_wehry]: yes. yeah.

[andy_leaf]: right, Homeless sounds a lot better than interdisciplinary group. It sounds

[andy_leaf]: sounds terrible. It's not exciting. It doesn't get. It doesn't fill you with

[andy_leaf]: hope. Um. but the people who like to usele certain words have weird expectations

[andy_leaf]: of what they're going to get.

[andy_leaf]: So like the moment somebody goes on palliative care. Um. That's when they find

[andy_leaf]: out they have a serious illness and palliative care is a as an orb of a bunch of

[andy_leaf]: different disciplines, Um professionals, people working together to help that

[andy_leaf]: person, a social workers, doctors, um, pain management, Um, All those things are

[andy_leaf]: are going together because people suffer in more than one way, but they don't

[andy_leaf]: know what they need. Sometimes,

[pj_wehry]: right. right,

[andy_leaf]: like, um, like take the wall down for a minute. engage your imagination and

[andy_leaf]: imagine that in palliative care they have people whose job is just to work with

[andy_leaf]: people To understand how the billing and the financial side works.

[pj_wehry]: right, right, because

[andy_leaf]: And you, you, you go,

[pj_wehry]: you don't want to add that psychic pain?

[andy_leaf]: You don't and and you just have to stop for a minute And think, Um, I am going to

[andy_leaf]: leave my wife and kids in a matter of months. Most likely, if I don't beat this

[andy_leaf]: cancer, my wife screwed up the billing. I come home from treatment and I just

[andy_leaf]: unload everything on her in front of the kids, And that's how I'm spending some

[andy_leaf]: of my my last months of my wife and kids, and you, You engage your imagination

[andy_leaf]: that way, And you know, um, what we have in health care is fairly holistic, but

[andy_leaf]: we don't call it that, because we don't want to give people the wrong expectation

[andy_leaf]: and mayor may not work, they might go from palliative care over to hospice. We

[andy_leaf]: may not be able to fix everything, but we are trying to treat people as um as

[andy_leaf]: people,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and alleviate the pain as much as we can.

[pj_wehry]: so if I'm tracking with you, like what you are saying by using interdisciplinary

[pj_wehry]: group, which doesn't sound as good as likeness or holistic,

[pj_wehry]: But

[andy_leaf]: No,

[pj_wehry]: if you say wholeness, it gives people the expectation

[pj_wehry]: that I they are going to be hole, and that's

[andy_leaf]: yes,

[pj_wehry]: which you can't promise that,

[andy_leaf]: no, you can't And and you shouldn't

[pj_wehry]: right.

[andy_leaf]: um, like if you think of like a like a pharmaceutical commercial. I remember

[andy_leaf]: being a kid and this commercial came on for this prescription, um anti acid, and

[andy_leaf]: it's all these uh, big New Yorkers at a buffet. They're like my uncle ver Gonoys,

[andy_leaf]: and then one guy holds his stomach That shows the animation of Like the acid

[andy_leaf]: coming up, And then it shows a prescription drug

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: right And then the music changes and there' like birds chirping and all these

[andy_leaf]: Italians are smiling at each other and they're like E. They got more conno' on

[andy_leaf]: the line And then and then the commercial ended and I remember my dad going you

[andy_leaf]: moons, and he lost it. This commercial.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[andy_leaf]: I was like maybe eight or nine years old. I like what. What's going on? He's

[andy_leaf]: like. No, no, no,

[andy_leaf]: you just enabled these guys to kill themselves. A little acid would have been

[andy_leaf]: better

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, because you're

[andy_leaf]: and

[pj_wehry]: masking the symptoms.

[andy_leaf]: yes, but but the whole tone of the commercial was that you were whole and healthy

[andy_leaf]: when really. Um, he worked. and that's a. that's a scary place to be within

[andy_leaf]: health

[pj_wehry]: H.

[andy_leaf]: care. Um,

[andy_leaf]: I didn't know at the time that were like one of two countries in the world that

[andy_leaf]: know legalize those kind of commercials. They're I leegal, every else to show

[andy_leaf]: prescription drugs on T V to the average consumer, because people shouldn't be

[andy_leaf]: making that you know that kind of decision themselves and then that leads to the

[andy_leaf]: whole spirituality and uh and therapy combination, which is just a incredible. my

[andy_leaf]: mind.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, talk a little bit about that.

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, um, so

[andy_leaf]: two reasons for it.

[andy_leaf]: one reason is that Um people wantnna combine spirituality with therapy, is that

[andy_leaf]: it? Um. Speeds up the process,

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: twelve step programs to do it. Um.

[andy_leaf]: Medicare and Medicaid doesn't e, allow hospice teams to even function or receive

[andy_leaf]: any kind of money until they have a chaplain.

[andy_leaf]: And if you know anything about Medicare Medicaid,

[andy_leaf]: they might not be the most kindly generous groups in the world when it comes to

[andy_leaf]: pain, but they won't pay ascent for people who are dying if there isn't a chapel

[andy_leaf]: on the team.

[pj_wehry]: Interesting.

[andy_leaf]: Yes, and and the reason for that, as far as you can tell, is that, Um, with

[andy_leaf]: suffering, there is this spiritual distress that comes in P. ▁j. when people are

[andy_leaf]: undergoing loss, and that spiritual distress makes it so that any kind of care

[andy_leaf]: they could have received usually isn't as effective.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah, I mean that may that just makes sense. Um. do you see

[pj_wehry]: you know interesting that you're the first hospice team in Iron Mountain. Uh, when

[pj_wehry]: I say you mean you wa, not like Andy Is the entire team? No, um,

[pj_wehry]: but, uh that you're part of this this first team.

[pj_wehry]: Um.

[pj_wehry]: is there I?

[pj_wehry]: I don't know enough about this to not make you know assumptions, but I know that

[pj_wehry]: as a whole America seems to be over prescribed?

[pj_wehry]: Do you

[andy_leaf]: Sure,

[pj_wehry]: see this as an antidote? Do you? Is that a problem? I mean, I think I know the

[pj_wehry]: answer. But I think you have more info on

[pj_wehry]: on America being overscribed right. Um, and how how would this be the antidote

[pj_wehry]: being over over prescribed?

[andy_leaf]: I think it all depends about how you present it and what your expectations are.

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: I. I think, in some cases, Yes, we are. In some cases, you kind of go from the

[andy_leaf]: opposite extreme, like I grew up in a home that we were self described holistic

[andy_leaf]: people.

[andy_leaf]: We didn't take vica it in. we didn't take Um, even over the counter painkillers,

[andy_leaf]: Um

[andy_leaf]: shaped my childhood man as a few years before you met

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: me, Um, we moved to the area. My dad had some serious health issues of the

[andy_leaf]: autommune disease and he was treating it just by like whole health foods, things

[andy_leaf]: like that, and my parents were totally convinced that they continue on that path.

[andy_leaf]: Ma. he would get healthy.

[andy_leaf]: You've seen my dad. He's bigger than I am, Much more carfie built than I am. He

[andy_leaf]: got down to a hundred and thirty five pounds. Um. when I was like ten years old,

[andy_leaf]: Um, Just, you know, not not the weight. we should be at six foot, you know, and A

[andy_leaf]: and a powerful build.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, and the people who were in that camp just couldn't admit that, in some

[andy_leaf]: cases you needed to pivot and try a different path.

[andy_leaf]: My my dad got on prescription prescription drugs at that point for the first

[andy_leaf]: time, and uh, he's still alive to day

[andy_leaf]: before That he was basically coughing up blood every morning

[andy_leaf]: And you see that kind of stuff and you want to go. I, I need a little humility

[andy_leaf]: here. you know, the the holistic crowd. Good de your thing, Um, the people who

[andy_leaf]: need medication, maybe a need it,

[pj_wehry]: yeah. yeah.

[andy_leaf]: but the, but the crazy thing is, Pj's. this. My dad would never ever describe

[andy_leaf]: himself as being whole. He would say there were side effects to the very powerful

[andy_leaf]: drugs that I took that allowed me to survive. But I have not immune disease. I

[andy_leaf]: will never be whole because so far nobody can treat these. Nobody can cure them.

[andy_leaf]: You can alleviate the symptoms, live longer, and accomplish the goals you have

[andy_leaf]: for living a good life, but you're not whole.

[pj_wehry]: Do you find that a helpful Uh

[pj_wehry]: concept in what you do as a pastor and as a chaplain?

[pj_wehry]: The idea of

[andy_leaf]: Can you repeat the question?

[pj_wehry]: is that the idea of like like people are. I mean, I'm generalizing here, but the

[pj_wehry]: idea that people aren't whole right

[andy_leaf]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: because I mean, so, for instance, stupid, stupid example, nothing compared to an

[pj_wehry]: auto imune disease. Okay, but I think everyone

[andy_leaf]: yes,

[pj_wehry]: has something right, so uh,

[andy_leaf]: right,

[pj_wehry]: I clenched my teeth, didn't realize what was happening and I cracked my tooth and

[pj_wehry]: I had it pulled the night before. Uh, my soorin. my four year old decided to come

[pj_wehry]: a week or late, thank you, son and I. I got my tooth pulled the night before or

[pj_wehry]: the day before he came that night and I was in the hospital with like gauze like

[pj_wehry]: up inside my my cheek. You know that tooth is gone like I'm not going to grow a

[pj_wehry]: new tooth. You know what I mean like I'm not like. it's not

[pj_wehry]: Um

[pj_wehry]: and that, but I think

[pj_wehry]: I. so I'm when I talk about us not being whole, everyone has has scars. Um. one of

[pj_wehry]: the things we have to deal with. You know, even as you were talking about, Uh,

[pj_wehry]: then I, I would love to return to this the idea of generational patterns, Uh in

[pj_wehry]: Iron Mountain, but just that like

[pj_wehry]: wholeness sounds better,

[pj_wehry]: but it can lead to um, destructive expectations. How like you've mentioned a

[pj_wehry]: little bit for Um,

[pj_wehry]: being a chaplain as a pastor. Do you see? Uh? is that has that in a useful concept

[pj_wehry]: as well,

[andy_leaf]: it has been

[andy_leaf]: a close friend of mine.

[andy_leaf]: His wife

[andy_leaf]: still has Um diabetes,

[andy_leaf]: their first ki first son. he comes home from work and his his wife is uh, passed

[andy_leaf]: out in the kitchen floor and their newborn is underneath her

[andy_leaf]: and she s mother. The newborn doesn't go to my church, but at the funeral they do

[andy_leaf]: like a a line where everybody goes up like basically shakes their hand, almost

[andy_leaf]: like, almost like a wedding procession. But for funerals this is far our newborn,

[andy_leaf]: and nobody knows what to say. Minister isn't there,

[andy_leaf]: so the first guide just says the first thing that comes to his mind. You know,

[andy_leaf]: God must have needed Angel and I kid, do. Not everybody behind that person in the

[andy_leaf]: line heard what the person pro them said and repeated the exact same thing.

[andy_leaf]: and those were their their answers. P. ▁j. So when when you, when you try to give

[andy_leaf]: answers to things like as a chaplain, when I'm deal with somebody who has regrets

[andy_leaf]: that I cannot fix, Nobody can fix, I can listen, But I don't want to do more more

[andy_leaf]: harm than

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: good. And and

[andy_leaf]: that connection between pastoring and and and chaplancy has really stood out. You

[andy_leaf]: don't want to give people fake answers. Um,

[andy_leaf]: and also getting into the chaplainy side, seeing how spirituality can be seen

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: more as a um,

[andy_leaf]: a basic human need rather than something that fits into my religious system.

[andy_leaf]: That's been challenging as well.

[pj_wehry]: Hm. yeah,

[andy_leaf]: Really. Really, it has been.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: Um. Somebody gave me this sum.

[andy_leaf]: It's like this ninety page report that the Vatican put out when I would have it

[andy_leaf]: in like junior high, and I found this really interesting. They gave it to me

[andy_leaf]: because of Um, spirituality being used in ways that I had a Christian never

[andy_leaf]: heard, and I was put out by their counsel for interbligious dialogue. I'm going

[andy_leaf]: to this, I

[andy_leaf]: promise. but basically

[pj_wehry]: no, no. that's great.

[andy_leaf]: basically they, they took um, therapeutic techniques like the anigram, and stuff

[andy_leaf]: like that, evaluated them in light of being good Catholics, and and gave

[andy_leaf]: valuations to them.

[andy_leaf]: And and they called it Um, the Church's view On like the New Age, You can find it

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: online. It's it's lovely, ninety page article, Um report, and one of the things

[andy_leaf]: they said is that sometimes when you try to combine spirituality with therapy, it

[andy_leaf]: just gets really ambiguous

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[andy_leaf]: from their perspect of what they're trying to do is the church.

[andy_leaf]: And then they said Um.

[andy_leaf]: I sounds odd. The person that we blame for this viewpoint. P. ▁j

[andy_leaf]: would be Um. a guy named Carl Ye.

[andy_leaf]: And then the report ended as the only person they named it as as this as the

[andy_leaf]: reason that I know people in the West were starting to see spiritualities a basic

[andy_leaf]: human need where before they never did.

[andy_leaf]: And it's It's a fascinating readed. and I'm like, Go ahead.

[pj_wehry]: Is that is that a negative thing that he did that? How much did they talk about

[pj_wehry]: him? Do they just like say his name and like, and it's his fault the end?

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, and and they kept going ▁l, like, like, like in um, world views, like that

[andy_leaf]: of Co Young is like the only person they named everything else was like, You know

[andy_leaf]: hippy practices The inigram. Nobody got fingered by him and I started thinking

[andy_leaf]: about that a little bit, and I and I had to come this realization. P. ▁j. that

[andy_leaf]: um, my background and how the world views spirituality. they're not necessarily

[andy_leaf]: the same page

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and it's not something new. I should have known about this a long time ago. I

[andy_leaf]: wish I'd rather report, like you know fifteen years ago when it came out or

[andy_leaf]: something, and I would have really helped me understand my roles, a chaplain, and

[andy_leaf]: that the way we talk about spirituality as a culture, Um, it has broader

[andy_leaf]: connotations than religion. It's

[andy_leaf]: basic human wellness to most people, even to people who don't even like the term

[andy_leaf]: spirituality, And that's been a

[andy_leaf]: a challenging journey and an exciting one. For me.

[pj_wehry]: how would you define spirituality outside of religion? What makes it spiritual

[pj_wehry]: rather than just mental per se, Like mental health?

[andy_leaf]: Sure, I think, Um,

[andy_leaf]: the side that makes it spiritual is, it's really about what you value, Um, your

[andy_leaf]: goals in life.

[andy_leaf]: It's

[andy_leaf]: it's something people have, even if they haven't really tried to put into words.

[andy_leaf]: So when I'm with those people who are not religious, who are you know? describe

[andy_leaf]: themselves as as as a nun. Per se.

[andy_leaf]: they get that chance to think about what it is that they view as sacred and

[andy_leaf]: spiritual, and sometimes they give things like No, the reason or or universe, or

[andy_leaf]: or math or music or something something like. I'm just like Okay. I gotta stop

[andy_leaf]: myself from judging them and fighting fault and just listen

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah,

[andy_leaf]: And it's so hard

[andy_leaf]: it is. it is because that's not. That's not who I am, but I'm I'm I'm learning to

[andy_leaf]: work in different ways to different people

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[andy_leaf]: and it is. it's so it's so rewarding. I mean it.

[pj_wehry]: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's a really cool. so just uh, I'll say for our

[pj_wehry]: audience, Butot I think I know what you're talking about when you say none. Is

[pj_wehry]: that like the box? They check.

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, I'm not religious or it's a. It's amazing that Medicare Medicaid talks a

[andy_leaf]: lot about the spiritual, but not religious people like they have articles you

[andy_leaf]: find on line one after another about that and it feels like they're behind the

[andy_leaf]: times in some ways, but they make a really big deal out of that people who

[andy_leaf]: prescribe to spirituality, but not religion,

[andy_leaf]: and as a religious leader I just wantnna mock the fire out of them and I got to

[andy_leaf]: hold myself back and go okay, but you're looking at it like this and I can maybe

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, H.

[andy_leaf]: imagine my imagination a little bit what you. Mean,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: um.

[pj_wehry]: oh,

[pj_wehry]: I. so as you're dealing with somebody in hospice, what is

[andy_leaf]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: your responsibility to their family?

[andy_leaf]: you know it, it can depend

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andy_leaf]: if if there's a family member that they have regrets

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: with if they're if they make some kind of request about certain family members,

[andy_leaf]: or if they have certain cultural or religious backgrounds that maybe I can't

[andy_leaf]: interact with some of them.

[andy_leaf]: Um, it it all depends, but I want to be sensitive and I, I want to alleviate

[andy_leaf]: pain.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, are you allowed to give advice to help alleviate pain like Ma, you know,

[pj_wehry]: maybe you should try calling that family member if they're like scared to do. it.

[pj_wehry]: Is that something that you can not necessarily intervene with, but you can advise

[pj_wehry]: on

[andy_leaf]: It can be especially when we're trying to do that kind of talk therapy where they

[andy_leaf]: do want solutions. and sometimes it's hard to tell people who who are at the end

[andy_leaf]: of life. Sometimes they just want to reminisce and you can't really tell.

[pj_wehry]: right right? I was about to say I could see where it. so there's just a lot of

[pj_wehry]: judgment and uh, wisdom and discernment involved where you're like. Is this

[pj_wehry]: something where I push them to uh, like to solve this, or is this something where

[pj_wehry]: I'm just here to abide and to listen?

[andy_leaf]: Yeah, and with the with the um anddisciplinary group I'm part of, we have weekly

[andy_leaf]: meetings about

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: that or I, I think I think they need this sort. I think they're feeling this way

[andy_leaf]: and everybody in the table can hear it.

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[andy_leaf]: That's not just kept to myself,

[pj_wehry]: right right right, and and you

[andy_leaf]: Is helpful.

[pj_wehry]: get feed. Yeah, you get feedback. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: that's really interesting. I'm assuming you give feedback right like that's like

[pj_wehry]: people. Yes,

[andy_leaf]: Yes, yes, I'm not threatening.

[pj_wehry]: um,

[pj_wehry]: so do you see uh

[pj_wehry]: as you get to see that last stage of life? Um, And you know I know you're just

[pj_wehry]: starting on this journey. Um. are there habits? or do you see patterns of

[pj_wehry]: generational cycles?

[pj_wehry]: Uh, uh, something unique that comes from that.

[andy_leaf]: Yes, Um again, it's It's more a regional cultural thing, but you see people that

[andy_leaf]: haven't talked to their kids in twenty five years. You see people who are um

[andy_leaf]: entrenched in their um, certain religious views that are peculiar even to our

[andy_leaf]: region

[andy_leaf]: And

[andy_leaf]: it gets me thinking that, Um,

[andy_leaf]: if I understand a ▁qu question quicktly gets me thinking about how I'm going to

[andy_leaf]: evaluate what the good life is. I get back to that. I, I

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: should be important to anybody. I, I have a relationship with. If if I'm not

[andy_leaf]: written important to them, it's probably my fault, and I'm going to regret that

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: and I start thinking about things like that. Sometimes I even save them and use

[andy_leaf]: them in pastoral settings, you know, like in church. Um, but a lot of I just

[andy_leaf]: apply personally because you know there's privacy acts. I can't. just you know,

[andy_leaf]: Go share. you know,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: so and so really regretted this terrible thing they did in their youth. It's like

[andy_leaf]: No, I can't. I can't share that

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[andy_leaf]: I'll get in trouble.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, I like. I mean these are this is. this is its own sacred space, right

[pj_wehry]: like the the

[andy_leaf]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: death Beed is its own. Um,

[pj_wehry]: I think that rightfully so um, is our

[andy_leaf]: yes,

[pj_wehry]: Ed. As you look at your uh own, uh kids is, are there any lessons that you take

[pj_wehry]: away?

[andy_leaf]: Oh,

[andy_leaf]: suffering really does stick out in the memory.

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[andy_leaf]: It really does.

[andy_leaf]: um.

[andy_leaf]: negative pain. All those things that they really do stick out in memory. E. even

[andy_leaf]: of young kids

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andy_leaf]: and my kids are young right now and they don't understand everything. They're

[andy_leaf]: four and two, but the reality is there are things that my daughter remembers very

[andy_leaf]: clearly from a year or two years ago, because they were painful and I don't want

[andy_leaf]: to add to that

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andy_leaf]: in ways that are unnecessary.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: oh, the uh, I

[andy_leaf]: Oh, and

[pj_wehry]: go. ahe,

[andy_leaf]: and also Sheer remembers when I am not emotionally present because it causes her

[andy_leaf]: some form of pain.

[andy_leaf]: She can remember that from a year ago, Daddy. you're on your phone that night.

[andy_leaf]: It's incredible and I, I take that to heart. Um, quite a bit. Now,

[pj_wehry]: oh man. I. I run most of my business from my phone while watching my kids. it

[pj_wehry]: that,

[andy_leaf]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: uh

[andy_leaf]: I,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, no, it's

[andy_leaf]: you need you need to you to plug the production side of the show. More man

[andy_leaf]: you, you really do like. Um, like last month was, Uh, was home health and hospice

[andy_leaf]: month

[pj_wehry]: oh

[andy_leaf]: and we have planned the show for

[pj_wehry]: yeah. There you go

[andy_leaf]: them, and then you, and then you rescheduled on me

[andy_leaf]: and and and then you rescheduled on my my parents's anniversary. And uh, you know

[pj_wehry]: is today your parentary anniversary.

[andy_leaf]: it is. it is and they're not. They're not together anymore For those who were

[andy_leaf]: watching and those are watching. You got to understand this about P. ▁j. there's

[andy_leaf]: this. There's this Macavliian cold shite that he lives in or like. it's It's a

[andy_leaf]: world of forty chess where he wants to talk about suffering and therapy and he

[andy_leaf]: does this to a friend of like you know, almost twenty years,

[andy_leaf]: and just takes all his thunder. So Um, you know, I think you got to plug that

[andy_leaf]: more man. Let you know that you, really? you? really about that quality content

[pj_wehry]: Oh man.

[andy_leaf]: you welcome.

[pj_wehry]: oh, my gosh dude. Oh, you know I. I know it's a heavy topic and I appreciate your

[pj_wehry]: sharing. Um

[pj_wehry]: it' sorry I didn't know your parents' anniversary. Uh,

[andy_leaf]: You's more the one way to suffer, man, so you know proroveing it.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, no, no, it's true. Um, yeah, and I just um, I appreciate the

[pj_wehry]: the honesty and even like what that does, Uh for myself. that, um,

[pj_wehry]: that comment about

[pj_wehry]: uh, about your your kids and what I see with my own kids and how they can tell

[pj_wehry]: when I'm not present, whether it's on the phone like it's It's funny like you can

[pj_wehry]: tell when someone's not emotionally present without the phone. You know what I

[pj_wehry]: mean like sometimes people are just often in space and they're not they're.

[pj_wehry]: They've allowed themselves to get sapped, and I think one of the biggest takeways.

[pj_wehry]: I take away from all this is what you said. beginning. I think really powerful is

[pj_wehry]: Um.

[pj_wehry]: that we have to work on our own presence before we can be a healing presence for

[pj_wehry]: others.

[pj_wehry]: especially from this more. Um,

[pj_wehry]: and there, a lot of this going back to the epode, Doctor. kney. Um, but just

[pj_wehry]: uh, we don't do well with things we can't solve. But there are lots of things in

[pj_wehry]: our lives that we can't solve, and just learning to live with that.

[andy_leaf]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: Um, what is W.

[pj_wehry]: I'd like to end on something a little more practical if you don't mind what. Uh,

[andy_leaf]: sure

[pj_wehry]: So it kind of wrap up here. Know, um,

[pj_wehry]: what does meitation look like for you?

[andy_leaf]: and again, it isn't going to be practical to most people because Um, I'm a

[andy_leaf]: religious leader and this falls within a um.

[andy_leaf]: Okay religious system per se,

[andy_leaf]: but I, I really focus

[andy_leaf]: as a as a religious person to do apathetic meditation

[andy_leaf]: And that's where you focus on negative statements that are true.

[andy_leaf]: not to know everything about everything, but to know what's to lie, so that your

[andy_leaf]: life is more truthful, and how you live in your in your habit and the goals that

[andy_leaf]: you set. So I get up and I say things like God does not make junk, Go does not

[andy_leaf]: make make mistakes, and Um, God doesn't change his plans for you and for who

[andy_leaf]: you're supposed to be,

[pj_wehry]: H.

[andy_leaf]: And I make those negative statements and I meditate on them throughout the week

[andy_leaf]: or throughout the day, and there's so many of them I can make, but they always

[andy_leaf]: have to be negative statements.

[pj_wehry]: Do you mind saying why?

[andy_leaf]: Um, because the goal isn't to ber about everything, the goals to be truthful,

[pj_wehry]: H,

[andy_leaf]: and I,

[andy_leaf]: I don't know anything about the absolute truth or all truth, or exactly what

[andy_leaf]: truth is what. I know what it means to be truthful And I know meditating on being

[andy_leaf]: truthful gives me, Um, so much more for my relationship with my family, Um, for

[andy_leaf]: who ams a person, and I think it makes the good life possible

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andy_leaf]: where I look back and I don't. I don't want any other life than the one I've

[andy_leaf]: lived. not because I had all the answers, because um, I had integrity.

[pj_wehry]: powerful powerful statement. Thank you for ending with that, Um. it'll be great

[pj_wehry]: for my, my uh production side of things. The the quality content that I,

[pj_wehry]: Oh, if you can't tell any, I are best friends and he loves. Uh, we've always had

[pj_wehry]: this relationship, but I've always loved it. it. just um,

[pj_wehry]: uh, it, E. You have been a a precious friend for years, and um, a real, Uh, both,

[pj_wehry]: uh, thorn in my side and joy, and so

[pj_wehry]: I, I just

[andy_leaf]: thanks. I think

[pj_wehry]: yeah. like, Can I just say seriously, thank you for coming on and talking about

[pj_wehry]: something that's obviously near and personal and something that you're working

[pj_wehry]: through yourself, Um, and e',

[pj_wehry]: uh, just your honesty. I really appreciate it, thank you.

[andy_leaf]: thank you, ma'am.