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You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles and give you the confidence you need to invest into the lives of others. Find out more at youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You can mentor. Yo, Mentors.
Speaker 1:Today on the podcast, I've got Matt McGill. He has spent the last thirty years in full time ministry serving as youth pastor, teaching pastor, executive pastor. This guy has just pastored everything. He's a husband, a dad to five boys, and he is a volunteer football coach. In all these things, he is passionate about relationships, shaping character, and helping kids know that they matter.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we talk about what wisdom really looks like in mentoring, how leaders can build independence instead of dependence, and how to help the next generation mature in both faith and life. We talk about being relational, informational, and preparational to help these mentees live life on their own and become all that God has for them. We dive into the tensions of mentoring, being a friend and a leader, focusing in on the journey and the destination, direction versus discovery, and asking questions instead of just giving answers. Matt brings a ton of practical wisdom to the pod, so be sure to tune in, share it with your volunteers, your staff, your mentoring friends, and be impacted because Matt is the man. Alright.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the You Can Mentor podcast. This is your tallest mentor friends, Zach. And I'm here with Matt McGill. Matt, say hello.
Speaker 2:Hello, everybody. Glad to be here. Thank you so much, Zach, for inviting me to be a part of this.
Speaker 1:Matt, I'm just happy that the two of us are having this conversation, my man. So I met Matt. Actually, I didn't meet Matt. This is the first time that we've ever met. So hi, Matt.
Speaker 1:Hello. Nice to meet you. Nice to video meet you. Yes. Nice to video meet you indeed.
Speaker 1:But I have been following your podcast some. And, I mean, from my research, Matt, you have over thirty years experience working with kids, working in church, being a leader, and I just think that this guy could probably teach us a thing or two.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, good. I mean, I I I just gotta say, when you reached out, I was really excited because I think that what you're doing is so important. I think as the world becomes more and more digital, I think loneliness has been a human problem for centuries, year or thousands of years. But I think, you know, in our age with everyone bending down looking at the phone, and and it's just one on one relational connecting.
Speaker 2:I mean, the fact that you are empowering people, you're encouraging people, you're you're helping them do a better job, I love that. So, you know, when you reached out, I thought, man, if I could if I could help one half of a percent, I'd love I'd love
Speaker 1:to be a part of what you're doing. Well, that's awful kind of you to say, Matt. Well Man, why don't we just start out and you just kinda share with us who who you are, where you're at, what you do, all of that good stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. So, you know, little bit about me. I've spent a little bit over thirty years in the church, working mostly in the church. A few years, I worked at a couple Christian nonprofits.
Speaker 2:Mentoring has always been a priority, for me personally, but in the ministries that we've led. Even in my life now, so for the last year, I kind of, have broken off and started my own thing. But the thing that I've started is is I'm mentoring other leaders. I'm I'm mentoring leaders one on one to help them be be better leaders. It's not mentoring youth, like the focus on this podcast.
Speaker 2:But the youth part, have into my life too. I was a youth pastor for fifteen years, and you never really get that out of your blood. And so I'm actually the coach, a head coach of a 12 year old youth football team, and I don't have any kids on the team. My youngest kids are in high school, but I love it. I mean, I love the the the context of you know, being with a group of young men, very young, and and yachts, football, and and we're we're learning the game and playing the game and having fun, but but it's so much more than the game.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's about it's about life lessons and how to be a leader and how to how to live under leadership and yada yada yada. So so that's just kind of the mentoring side of my my life right now, you know, and that's that's kind of where where I'm at.
Speaker 1:Man, so I mean, you've been hanging out with kids now, building relationships for almost as long as I've been alive, which is nice.
Speaker 2:Yes. I'm very old. I'm fifty fifty two. I'm a very old person. But, you know, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. Just wanted to show you my walker in the back. I have a walker. Well, maybe not yet, but it's coming.
Speaker 1:Oh, man. Tell me how you got it on this. Tell me why you're passionate about mentoring, building relationships, helping people get to wherever the Lord wants me to get to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. That's a great question. So so growing up, it was just my dad and my sister and I. My mom passed away when I was when I was young, which of course was a drag, but my dad my dad was great.
Speaker 2:He had his faults, but we could have conversations about anything for as long as we needed and I loved to talk and I loved to question and I loved to challenge. So my dad, you know, he did a great job raising us, you know, as a single dad, but he also did a great job. He always paid attention and what I thought was important to him. Either it was important to him or he pretended it was important. I'm not sure, but he did a good job.
Speaker 2:But growing up, I had some really great great mentors. So one of them was a guy by the name of Doug Fields, was my youth pastor and he fabulous. He was a great youth pastor. In that ministry, you know, I had a small group leader named Scott Wickham, and and he was the one who I was more connected with than Doug. I did spend a lot of time over at Doug's house eating all the food out of his refrigerator.
Speaker 2:But you know, Scott Wickham was was fantastic. He taught me God's word, taught me what it meant to to be a man and to be a husband, and to and then later to be a to be a father, and and and so that was great. So I had three men in my life that were really important and then on kind of the the the non christian side, you know, my my coach in high school, my football coach was a fantastic coach and and you know, it's not like I met over their house once a week for you know, any kind of a mentoring session, but but he was definitely a mentor in my life and and made a huge huge impact. So for me, I saw early on in life just the power of one on one conversations and connections.
Speaker 1:Man Yeah. I think that what you just said is true. You know, there's so much going on today, whether it's you have the phone that's in these kids' hands or, you know, all the social medias and all of the things that can take away from this one on one paying attention kinda mindset. So so as a vis mentor, what does it mean, and how do you pay attention to a kid to make them feel loved and valued and flawless?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So here's here's kind of my my take on it. You know, kind of my framework for for mentoring. You know, I think there's there's three components that if you're a great mentor, and it doesn't matter if you use these three words, of course, but you'll see it across different models and and in different ways. But but there's a relational component and this is pretty obvious, one on one.
Speaker 2:But but this idea that there's life on life, that you're you're sharing life, that there's an authenticity there. I think in mentoring, there's also an informational component like it there's a relational and an informational where you're giving advice, you're sharing wisdom, you're you're communicating, you know, important things the other person needs to know. And and I think the third a third component that is sometimes overlooked, if I'm honest. I don't wanna be critical of of other models or anything like that because anybody who's trying to mentor is is awesome. But I think that there's also a preparational component.
Speaker 2:And and what I mean by preparational one is I just wanted it to be clever that they all ended with you know, relational, informational, preparation. Very clever. But this idea of building independence. This idea that you don't want the the person that you're mentoring, you don't want them to be dependent on you. You want them to be independent.
Speaker 2:You want them to be to be able to to live and to grow and to flourish on their own. So those I kinda see those as, like, the three main components of what a mentoring program ought to look like.
Speaker 1:You know, I think that that's such a good point because, I mean, if you guys have tuned in to the podcast, you know that my story is I grew up and didn't have a dad around. Right? And so my life has transformed because of mentors investing into me, kinda like what you said. They were relational. They taught me lots of information.
Speaker 1:But because of my background, because of my past, you know, I was fairly insecure. Okay. And so anytime that a mentor would leave me, I would kinda take it personal. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1:What I hear you saying is, in which this is something that I've learned now, is that you're probably not gonna have a lot of mentors who are with you from day one until the day that you die.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So the goal of all these mentors should be to be a tool to help this kid get from point a to point b. And so how how do you counsel mentors to help young people build independence without stepping away new soon? And, also, to help champion them kinda on the way out without maybe them getting the feeling sorted, things like that.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. No. That's that's good and important. You know, in youth ministry context, whether it's a junior high or a middle school ministry or a high school ministry, it's real easy because you know, after three years in middle school or whatever, after four years, there's a clearly defined, you know, time.
Speaker 2:And so, some of that's kind of built in. I think that a lot of mentorship, you know, and and and really relationships that really work, they're fluid and they go on for a long time. I mean, we've had small group leaders that that, yeah, the small group ended, but they've they've stayed they've stayed connected. But anyhow, I'm kinda going off off track here, which I do really really easily, which I'm glad you're in charge so you could you keep me focused. But for me, I mean, I the way I view life is I I think, you know, most things in life is is kind of managing different tensions, and and ideals are important.
Speaker 2:Of course, ideals are important, but but the reality to be a successful mentor, I think that there's there's several important tensions that that you have to navigate. The first one, I tuned into your podcast a few episodes ago, and you had you had somebody on it. I don't remember his name. I probably should have written it down. He had tons of research and book.
Speaker 2:He was very way smarter than me. After listening to that, I was like, I don't know why Zach wants me on. But but, anyhow, this guy, he brought up something that that I believe was called the the mentor's dilemma, and and it was it was a good it was a good phrase. But, to me, the way I would say it is that there's an important tension between being a friend and and being a leader, And it's important to be both and and it's not like there's a balance that you strike the middle and you always stay there, sometimes you need to be more friend and and sometimes you need to be more more leader. I I think it's important to build relationships but you're not a neutral party in in that person's life.
Speaker 2:Young Life, which I'm sure you're you're familiar with that organization, know, they had a great phrase which is, you know, earn the right to be heard. And and the truth is, is that they say that and and then what they mean is is once you've earned it, then you need to say something. You know, you need to you need to earn the right, that's the friend, but you also need to say something, that's the the leader. As I was thinking this through, I was reminded of a guy, a new volunteer in our ministry named Eric. He was he was younger.
Speaker 2:He was a new volunteer, and I love I love new, and I love young, and I love old. We've had we've had some older people, even older than 52. But this guy was young and new to the ministry, and after about six months in, you know, we were talking, I was asking him, you know, hey, how's it going? How's your group? How's your mentoring?
Speaker 2:To use our language. But, you know, and he kind of he got a little downcast and he's like, well, there's really there really hasn't been that much much progress. And I jump in with a joke because that's kind of my style. I was like, oh, mean your group hasn't memorized the book of Exodus yet like mine has? And and obviously, that's just asinine.
Speaker 2:But I asked him, tell me about it. Tell me about your interactions, what's your group time look like? And after he had shared some stories, it was very very obvious that what he was doing is that he was really leaning into the friend, the friend side of things, but he was really offering very few challenges, very few correction. So that was his, that was his story. He was not maintaining that tension very well.
Speaker 2:So there's kind of this friend versus leader leader tension that
Speaker 1:I think is important. So that is such a great point because what I found is that some people, most people kinda lean more towards one or the other. Right? Right. So, like Yes.
Speaker 1:Am I'm way more formational than I am fun, and I might forget to have fun, right, which isn't isn't always a good thing. Tell me how how do we create that balance, and perhaps someone who's more formational than fun, how do we become more fun and vice versa?
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. That's that's that's good to know. I mean, the first the first thing is is that leaders, new leaders or new mentors need to know that that exists. They need to know that they have a bias one way or the other, and and and that's okay.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's affirm affirm the bias because there is people are different. God made everybody different and that's fantastic. And and and Eric, he's gonna reach and connect with kids that I can't reach and connect with. So so it's a it's about letting them know, it's about affirming, and then it's also about being relationally connected to the leader, so you can know what they're doing. So that you can know like, hey, maybe you ought to have been a little bit more Maybe you ought to be a little bit more framework.
Speaker 2:And and and so, to me, I mean, I really I mean, I'm fine with chaos and I'm fine with everything not being written down and and telling everybody exactly what to what to do, but but the curriculum that we design, you know, I mean, we we focus on a lot of questions and and and which I was gonna talk about a little bit later, but but and very little like, hey, here's what you need to you need to do, and here's what you need to communicate. So to me, you know, it's impossible to say this is the right way to do it in every situation because it depends in situations where it'll change even with that one kid that you're mentoring. Sometimes you need to show up as a leader with a framework. And sometimes you need to show up as a friend and lean more into that. And so so I would rather, and really in all of these things, is help a person, help a leader develop their ability to discern the moment and choose what's best in the in the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which, I mean, all of us want the how to. We want the a plus b equals c, but that's just not how relationships work.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Right.
Speaker 2:You know, another one oh, sorry. Did I cut you off?
Speaker 1:No. No. No. I was I was just gonna ask, tell me some ways that we can earn the right to be heard.
Speaker 2:That's great. Transparency is huge. Transparency is huge. Now for me, personally, that's an that's a strength. I mean, have this curse or blessing.
Speaker 2:I will answer any question that's asked, and whatever I'm thinking is is shared. And so to me, you know, most people aren't that way. And so to to to be to be transparent about who you are is really important. On the other hand, there is a balance to that. Also, you can be too transparent.
Speaker 2:There are things you don't wanna be a burden. You're not there to to to to put your burdens on the person that you're mentoring. So it's important to be open, just not not too open. I think it's really important to be curious. Maybe it's even more important to be curious than it is to be open, but to ask questions and to genuinely show an interest.
Speaker 2:And and as you're listening, you are asking questions to go beneath the surface, you know, and and deeper and deeper. But I mean, I think like when you think about how, when I challenge a mentor or a leader to be a better friend, I just say, hey, how did you develop your friendships? Like think about the three people you're close to and how did your friendship develop? Well, you probably did some things together that you enjoy, you probably had lots of conversations, you probably didn't share everything you think. You probably shared more than you think than you do with the Starbucks barista, you know.
Speaker 2:And and so to me, I'd rather tie into you know, most people most people have friends. If they don't have friends, they probably shouldn't be a mentor. Probably need to get some friends first and then then come be a mentor. You know, and so that's that's how I would encourage that. And that was right off the top of my head.
Speaker 2:So I you know, I'm sure there are some better ideas out there for developing you know, authentic relationships.
Speaker 1:No way, man. That's awesome. So in this vein of talking about the tensions in mentoring, which I think is so good Yeah. The first tension, you know, do we operate more friend or more leader? But the second tension that you talk about is the journey versus the destination.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you think that you could talk some about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Definite. So to me, this other tension of of of destination versus journey, so destination, what I mean by that is you need to have an end in mind. Like, when you show up to mentor, whatever the context is, you need to have, you need to have a vision or you need to have a goal, or you need to have a plan.
Speaker 2:I mean, whatever you wanna call it, you know, you need to have some kind of destination. In the church, specifically, you you define that destination by saying, explain to me what a disciple is. Is. What does it mean to follow Jesus? In three minutes, can you explain to me what it means to follow Jesus and and hopefully, you know, whatever context you're in, whatever church, you can explain that.
Speaker 2:And that's your destination. Like that's where you wanna help help somebody somebody go. You know, I asked you to send me a couple websites. One of them was Forerunner Mentoring and man, it was such a great website and I love even just looking at it from afar. They have a clear picture of the destination of of where they're going.
Speaker 2:They have they have a vision for for the future. Now when I say journey, to me that's that's the step by step. That's the baby steps. That's the the day in, the day out, or week in, week out. And journey's tough.
Speaker 2:The journey's tough because it's hard to persevere. I think it's tough because there's a lot of backtracking. You know, like a person you're mentoring, the relationship can be going going going, and then all of a sudden, it hits a roadblock. The other person's growth can be going going going, and all of a sudden, they go backwards, and they do do something kind of dumb or or something discouraging. And then maybe you take it on personally like it's my fault that they they failed.
Speaker 2:And and so really there's this tension between the destination, like where are we gonna go, and the journey. Like everyday, how are we gonna get there? And they both require you know, some different skills. But those are really important. If you're gonna be a good mentor, it's not just about hanging out and and driving around in circles.
Speaker 2:Now you might end up getting in the car and driving around in circles, but your conversation ought to have a destiny and a vision.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that that's so good, Matt. And I know you kinda spoke to obstacles. You kinda spoke to perseverance. Tell me tell me how how you would encourage a mentor who's maybe experiencing some of those things.
Speaker 1:How do you stay patient whenever some of the progress feels painfully slow or maybe like it's just not happening at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's a good that's a good question. And I'm actually dealing with this with my sons right now. So I'm I'm coaching twelve twelve year old football, and my two oldest kids are coaching alongside with me.
Speaker 2:It is like awesome. I love it. And and my sons, my two kids, I've got five kids, but but two I'm coaching with. And and there's there's one kid on the team that they are so they are so frustrated with. They and and well, I won't go into the reasons, but it but it's not just the ability because we don't really care that much about that, but it's it's attitude and effort and and and whatnot.
Speaker 2:And as I'm talking to them separately, it's it's funny, I like to to separate and and and conquer. You know, they both have problems with this one one kid. And so as I'm listening to them, I'm kinda smiling and and not giving a lot of advice or or But at the right time, when they're done, I stop and I say, yeah but and I point out some of the positive things, know. And I point out some of the fact that the fact that this kid, you know, he started the season, he started late in practice and yet he's doing this. A couple weeks ago, he he volunteered to do that.
Speaker 2:And and and so so what I did is I pointed out some of the positives. Now I'll just tell you, I did not convince either of my children to have more compassion for this kid and that's okay. And you know, I mean, that's that's part of their journey where they're on. But but I think when there is discouragement, you do need to pause and you need to look for the wins. You need to celebrate you need to celebrate the wins.
Speaker 2:I think part of it too, and this is a little bit this is a little bit of a punch in the face, but I don't know any of your audience personal. So no one could take this personally, But when you're discouraged that somebody else isn't growing specifically, you really need to pause and just remember that you're not God or that you're not in control and that they have free will. Like I love that I have free will but I hate that everyone else has free will. But but but I mean, honestly, when I'm frustrated by somebody else's lack of growth or let's call it disobedience, or actively bad bad choices, it it hurts God more than it hurts me. And for me to pretend that that it hurts me, that I'm I'm is is really a kind of pride that, well, it's good for that to be exposed in our lives.
Speaker 2:And so we we ought to be frustrated when there's no movement or or or backwards movement. We ought to be frustrated, but it it shouldn't take us out of the game. So for one, I think there's look at the wins, and for two, I think it's also try and look at things from God's point of view. Try and understand how you can gain a little bit more humility through this.
Speaker 1:And I think if you it's always good to remember that you can't fix someone. Yeah. Can't save someone. Only God can do that. But it's so easy as a mentor because the only thing that I really wanna do is fix my mentee.
Speaker 2:Right? Exactly. Exactly. As if, you know, I mean, you know, they're yeah. It's it's those it's like the parents that are living vicariously through their kids, which we never see in youth sports.
Speaker 2:But you're having influence, but you can't control them. You're so right on that. You're so right
Speaker 1:on I think that's why it's so important for us to mentor with other people and for us to talk about how it's going is because so often in the Bible, God God tells us to remember, remember, remember. Mhmm. Right? Well, there's a reason for that. And we, as mentors, we need to remember that God is in control.
Speaker 1:We need to remember that God loves those kids so much wonder would do. Yes. And that he is the one who's ultimately going to change them. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Alright. Also, so let's let's talk about this third tension. As in versus answering.
Speaker 2:Tony, you Yes. This this is a hard I've I've I think most of the leaders that I've trained and I've seen this is the this is the most difficult tension. And so when I say asking, that means that you are, you know, the mentorship all mentorships are a dialogue. You know? It's it's not a lecture, and and at least it's not supposed to be.
Speaker 2:If if if people only grew through lectures, then then, you know, we wouldn't have we wouldn't have relationships and and and and challenging one another in that way. I think that it's really important to learn how to ask good questions. And so, a lot of times when I was a youth pastor, the night before, you know, the night before youth group, next the next morning, I would actually try and think through a list of questions if it was something that could be specific to that time of year or whatever. Like even even in relationships where I wasn't in a mentor relationship right away, you know, just asking questions so that you're putting the ball the ball in their court. It's so so important.
Speaker 2:I think with that, just on a practical side, if you could be or learn how to become comfortable with silence. I joke until if I'm leading a group or if I you know, with my leaders, I just say, I've been awkward since the seventh grade, so I'm fine with the awkward silences. You might not realize that here, where I just keep talking endlessly. But but that's the asking of questions. So on one side, you really, really need to ask.
Speaker 2:The other side, is is answering, or what I say, giving advice, or giving information, or sharing. I think that you know, in this tension, you know, if it's not a middle, I think you're way more on the asking than you are on answering. You know, think about this in your life, how often did you, not use that, you know, it's rhetorical, but how often do you listen to advice? I mean, never do we listen to somebody's advice. Now, we ask a question, we listen.
Speaker 2:And so, when you are asking questions and creating a relationship that's based on dialogue, that's based on questions, then you're gonna get more questions back. And man, when you get a question, that could be an opportunity to start answering. A lot of times when someone asks a question, you probably should respond with a few more questions to get to the heart of what's really really happening. But part of this answering thing too, know, just to be just to be practical, and this is an ego thing again. Ego ego is a problem in my life, so I like to I've I've I can tell you a whole lot about it.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure I can tell you tell you how to not have it. But but when someone asks you a question and you're giving an answer, if you don't know the answer, be humble enough to say that. And so in your answers, don't feel like you need to have the answers to everything. If it's an important enough relationship and and conversation, you don't need to have conversation, you don't need to make stuff up on the spot to seem like to seem like the to seem like you're the expert. As I was thinking about this asking versus answering, I mean before before we even we met, I mean I sent you a bunch of emails with a bunch of questions.
Speaker 2:Was even thinking to myself, I'm probably driving this guy crazy. But I you know, I would much rather hear like about a mentor's very specific situation. I would much rather have a one on one conversation and and learn about what they're doing and then apply some answers or some some feedback or some information that that is custom tailored to them. And so so it's an important it's an important I've just given a long answer to to saying that, hey, you ought to spend more time asking questions. But that's a really important tension to navigate if you wanna be a good good mentor.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's so fascinating what you said. When was the last time that you listened to advice that you didn't ask for?
Speaker 2:That's also personal testimony. So
Speaker 1:And then all of the advice that I do listen to is because I asked for it.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's really it's really just an important I mean, it's just the way humans are wired.
Speaker 1:You know? So tell me some of the tools that you have to stir up questions from your teenage mentees.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Man, that's a question I've that's a that's a good one. I actually I actually have a tool called the art of asking questions. Do you make resources available to your people? Do you have like a Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Maybe I'll send it to you. If you wanna edit it, you can take my name off, put your name on it. But but So you asking me about this tool right away, I don't I I Yeah. I don't I don't I don't have like a three step thing.
Speaker 2:I think that in the I don't wanna repeat what I said earlier. What I said earlier is when you're building a relationship, it's important to ask questions about their life and to get to know, you know, who they are and to be actively interested. I think that in this context, answer, you know, asking questions if if your mentorship is based on a curriculum or on some content, it would be much better to ask questions about that content than it would be to just give give the answers. And so so the questions that I kinda ask in my own head, if it's a Bible study, I start with questions that are content questions. Like, let's do the surface level.
Speaker 2:You know, who are the characters? What happened? A, B, C, D. And after we talk about that, I say, okay, what are some principles? You know, and we discuss principles that are in that passage.
Speaker 2:And then we'll talk about application. You know, what does this look like to apply? And specific questions I'll do is you know, things like you know, let's just say forgiveness. You know, is it possible to forgive people too much? You know, and why?
Speaker 2:And just let that sit. And you know, and someone might say you know, well no, you know, Jesus said seven times 70 and it's like, okay, great. You know, and then someone else will be like, well yeah, you know, if someone keeps hurting you, you can't you know, you can't keep forgiving forgiving. That's just foolish, you know. And so so to me, I if it's a passage or if it's some kind of a theme, I wanna do the surface details, pull out the things that are the principles that are always true, and then try to apply those principles to their life.
Speaker 2:And when I say do apply it, have them ask questions to to get them to go. That was a good question that you asked. What's your tools for for helping people ask questions? Part of that for me is when I've created curriculum to empower our leaders, I've always said, hey, here's 10 questions. You'll probably only use three or four and that's great, you know.
Speaker 2:And so I try to empower by giving too many questions. And I also try to empower by saying you can't get through all these. So you type a types that have to check the box and you're very OCD and and you can't get through all of them. And you rule follower types, you are allowed to make your own questions. You don't have to use the questions that that I provide.
Speaker 2:So that's creating an atmosphere of like do what works in your moment. You know, you don't have to follow follow every part of this framework. That was kind of a shotgun answer to that question.
Speaker 1:Nope. It's good, man. So I know for me, this is a great kinda time to to talk about being spirit led. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I know for me, anytime that I'm with my mentee, it might get kinda weird. I'm like, man, I don't know what to talk about. I don't know what to ask. I've asked him all the, hey. How's school?
Speaker 1:Tell me what you're learning. I'm fine. You know? It's, know, But it's like, man, it's times like that that I'm like, okay. I'm just gonna take 30.
Speaker 1:Lord, is there anything that you want me to ask my mentee? And I'm amazed at how powerful and effective that can be.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, one of the things one of the things that I had in my notes here, but I think I skipped over is that you absolutely need to be praying for the person you're mentoring. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Not just in the moment like you were talking about. I think Esther did that. But also before the moment. I think your podcast reaches a lot of people. If you're not the praying type, that's you know, that's your journey.
Speaker 2:Spend some time thinking. Spend some time thinking and I think the question is, is okay God, what's next? What's next for the person I'm mentoring? And you might be wrong, that's okay. Hold on to it with a loose grasp.
Speaker 2:But but you really wanna wanna submit that to God and get God's get get be open to the Holy Spirit leading you in a particular direction. If you don't have, this is another kind of punch in the face. If you don't have an ideas for what's next for your mentor, this kind of goes under the the destination thing I was talking about, then then you're you're not taking your stewardship, you know, seriously. You know? And and so to me, I think it's important to be spirit led.
Speaker 2:Like, if we're not, we're missing the mark.
Speaker 1:I also think it's important for us. I mean I mean, even if it's only for five or ten minutes, you know, you said how before you taught, you thought about a couple different kinds of questions. You know? As mentors, hey. If you're about to go hang out with your mentee, take five or ten minutes and just, okay.
Speaker 1:What are the things we talked about last week? What are some of the questions I could ask them? What's important to them, and how can I engage? I don't know. I just didn't think that that's a very Yeah.
Speaker 1:Important kind of practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, this is to me, this this is the last tension that I've identified is that there's kind of a directing versus a discovering. And so I think that, you you should show up ready to direct, like ready to have an agenda, you know, a right agenda, a spiritual agenda. You know, you need to have have that. But at the same time, you need to be ready to discover a new agenda, either that the Holy Spirit brings, or that your mentee brings.
Speaker 2:You know? I I experienced this just a few a few weeks ago where I had spoken at at a winter camp. I'd spoken at a winter camp, and the church is local, and so I I it was local. And one of the kids, Jacob, reached out to me, got my phone number from the high school pastor, reached out and and said he wanted to get together, that he had a bunch of questions about the Bible. He'd been taking his faith seriously for for a little bit over a year.
Speaker 2:He actually was already in a small group and well connected at the church. I don't know why he wanted to reach out. But but, you know, so I I showed up thinking like, hey, he's gonna have some questions, you know, where did dinosaurs go on Noah's ark type of thing, you know. And and and and and so, but I had an agenda. My agenda was let me get him the information that that he wants.
Speaker 2:I mean, is what he said. Obviously, I'm not gonna be a relational connect for him long term. He's already in a small group. And then as I was listening and and you know, I I had an agenda but it was a loose hand. Really, the the thing was is that he had some close friends that were really making bad bad decisions, know.
Speaker 2:And and his his thing, the way he phrased it at first was, how can I stop them from doing this? You know, and I kept from smiling because I am sarcastic. But in the moment, it was a genuine question and and you know, it actually makes me feel emotional to think about. But but he just wanted to know what to do is what he was saying, but he already knew what to do. And so, he didn't need answers from me, he needed someone to believe in him.
Speaker 2:He needed someone to affirm. Someone to, just just, hey, you're going in the right direction. And so, of like coming up with a five point plan for for what to do when a friend falls away, it was more just listen to the story and and and he set the agenda. He, you know, the Holy Spirit And that's what he needed in the moment. So that's kind of what I mean, the difference between directing and discovering.
Speaker 2:Know, there's gonna be times that you're just gonna have to throw the plan out the window, and that's okay. Still have a plan. Don't show up without a plan. You know, I feel like that's not good stewardship.
Speaker 1:Man, so these four key tensions, friend versus leader, destination versus journey, asking versus answering, and direct versus discovery. Yep. They said those are so good. I wanna switch lanes here. Tell me about how you got involved with this football league.
Speaker 1:Tell me how you got to coaching kids that aren't your kids with your kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. So I've got five sons. They're they're all fantastic. They're all totally different.
Speaker 2:My I played football in high school, but I didn't push that on my kids. You know, just for whatever it is, I I wasn't living vicarious through my children. All of them are more competitive than I am. I don't I don't really care. But but my oldest came to me when he was five and said, dad, I wanna play football.
Speaker 2:I was like, great. So we signed him up for flag football, had a great experience. The coach was fantastic with kids. I I can't stand five year olds. I mean I could stand my five year olds a little bit, Not really.
Speaker 2:But but but so my number two kid followed in the footsteps of the number one. Number three, he did football for three years but then didn't didn't like it which was fine. Ended up becoming Taekwondo black belt fourth degree. So he did that for like nine years. It was awesome.
Speaker 2:And then my younger two kids played football. So when my younger two kids started playing football, I signed up to be an assistant coach and it was it was great. We had a terrible head coach. Terrible head coach like screamed at the kids and and which that's fine. I mean, that's some styles, but then was also real inconsistent and it was very unfair to the kids.
Speaker 2:And so so, you know, everything you read about discipline and and creating order and being a parent and all that stuff, You gotta be consistent. Inconsistency kills. And and so the guy was so bad, he got voted out of the league. Like, and so our we had a team that didn't have didn't have a coach. And and so so I decided that I would do that.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I had a bunch of youth ministry experience, so I felt comfortable with that. But in my coach interview, they they, you know, the board, very important board, interviews you and they say, you know, now that's a real challenge dealing with parents. How are you gonna do that? And I was like, oh, dealing with parents is easy. At that point, I've been dealing with parents for twenty five years.
Speaker 2:I go, here's what I'll do, a b c. And then they said, so what kind of offense are you gonna run? And I just smiled and I said, go, I have no idea. I go, if you make me a coach, give me a couple weeks to think about it and I'll come back and my football knowledge will be increased so that I could I could run an offense. So I didn't go into this because I have this deep love of of football.
Speaker 2:But at first it was my kids and my kids needed to coach and I know that I can create community and create fun and laughter. They went on to high school and I really missed. I I I really I took a break because they were gonna be freshmen and I wanted to be there for my kids and and show up to kids events and stuff. And so then, after taking a year break, I took a team on and and still have not mess missed any of my own kids stuff. I mean, I I've learned from Doug Fields that, you know, we prioritize family over ministry.
Speaker 2:But I love it. And if I can be honest, it's a great it's a great way for me to invest, but also to be around non Christians. So as a guy who's worked at the church for thirty plus years, you know, you you spend most of your time around Christians and you know what, most of them are great, some are just annoying. But but I mean, to to actually be around non Christians and and stuff, it's it's it's fantastic. I mean, so so that's how I got to be involved.
Speaker 2:Once again, a long answer to your very simple question.
Speaker 1:So what is one thing that you've learned from mentoring and building relationships with these kiddos?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I'm all of this stuff that I talked about today, I mean, I I I didn't pull this off of a training sheet. I mean, I got a ton of training that I've done for small group leaders over the year. I'll send you the how to ask questions if that's helpful, if not, you know. But honestly, this was, this this came off of my me, these tensions came off of me reflecting about my experience where I'm at right now as as a coach.
Speaker 2:And so these are all things that some of them I've done well, and some of them I've I've done I've done bad. Some sometimes I've been more of a friend to the kids and not and joked around and the x's and o's and the seriousness hasn't hasn't been important enough. Know, this year tried to correct that a little bit. You know, sometimes I get discouraged in the journey, the day by day. My wife said to me, you know, last year, she's like, you know, why do you even do this?
Speaker 2:You come home every practice and you're not in a good mood. And it's like, yeah, you know, I think I'm focused too much on on where they need to go and not just the day to day journey. So honestly, all of these things are things that I've been learning and thinking about and praying about and trying to be trying to be better with with my with my kids. And with the people I'm mentoring one on one, you know, as my as my business.
Speaker 1:As we kinda finish up, Matt, what's what's one thing maybe that if someone was thinking about mentoring, if someone was kinda new to the mentoring game, what's one piece of advice that or one encouragement that you would give them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know what? I I'm gonna just put the ball in your court. I love it. I love it's your you don't know what I love.
Speaker 2:I haven't told you yet. One of my problems is just thinking things. I love the name of this podcast and your website and the whole thing, you can mentor. And and I think that the one thing I would say is is if you're even considering it, you should jump in and do it. Don't wait until you're perfect cause you're not and you'll never be.
Speaker 2:I think that that that's my one my one piece of advice is that you you can do it. Now, don't get me wrong. If you've just had a major life explosion, you can't do it, you know, and and you should. And and you could fill in the blanks for whatever explosion is, you know, in your life. But but if I could just give you good one one thing, you need to be investing in other people.
Speaker 2:In some way shape or form, you need to be investing in others. If not, you're kind of missing out on the on the reason why God had you on this this planet.
Speaker 1:It's good, man. Alright. As is with today's show, yep. Tell me where people can find out more about you and your work and wisdom consulting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I started a thing a year ago. It's helping it's helping church leaders. I've got some senior pastors that are my my clients. I've got some youth pastors.
Speaker 2:I got some, you know, so I kinda have a mix. But it's called it's really long website. It's wisdomministryconsulting.com. And and and I'm not sure like if if, you know, if you're a volunteer and you're mentoring somewhere, you know, I mean, man, I'd I'll and you have a question, holy smokes. I'll give anybody some some time.
Speaker 2:You know, you can find my information and and book a thing. My what my target is is probably not the same target as your as your podcast, and that's that's okay. But if people are interested, yeah, check out my website, wisdomministryconsulting.com, and you can you can learn a little bit more about about what I'm all about.
Speaker 1:That's great. Matt, thanks so much for hopping on the pod, man. Thanks thanks for talking about these four tensions, And Thanks for having me. Here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Of course.
Speaker 1:Okay. Alright, audience. Thank you so much for your time. Please share this with a mentoring friend, your staff, your volunteers, all that good stuff. And remember, you can mentor.
Speaker 2:You can mentor.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to the You Can Mentor podcast. Our vision is to raise up and invest in mentoring leaders who will launch and grow thriving mentoring ministries. We do that by equipping and encouraging faith based leaders through relational connection, Christ centered resources, and collaborative gatherings. Check out our books, come to the National Christian Mentoring Gathering, and engage with our network and cohorts. You can find all this at youcanmentor.com or on social media.
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