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The Thing We Never Talk About is an educational podcast about personal finance for creatives and other weirdos. We'll discuss managing cash flow with a lumpy income, when to save & when to invest, and how to reduce stress & build confidence when it comes to your money. No hot stock tips, no complicated strategies, and no finance bro jargon. We'll hear from artists, musicians, creative professionals, and other weirdos about how they navigate these questions for themselves. The Thing We Never Talk About is hosted by Timothy Iseler, CFP®, a former recording & touring audio engineer with 18 years experience in the music industry.
Timothy Iseler: Okay, so Cheeti,
I end every conversation with
a question from my guest.
You asked me to name five essential
financial literacy elements for a
first time small business owner.
And I'm gonna do my best
to keep this concise, okay?
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah.
Timothy Iseler: Hi, everybody.
Welcome to The Thing We Never Talk About.
My name is Tim Iseler.
I'm a certified financial planner, and I
run my own independent financial advisory
business, helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make
smarter decisions with their money.
You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.
If you have a question about money
or personal finance or mindset or
whatever, please send it to me by
visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast,
and I will answer it in a future episode.
And if you enjoy this podcast,
please share it with a friend.
After you've done that, please go
ahead and like and subscribe to the
show wherever you listen to podcasts.
Today, I'm speaking with Cheetie
Kumar, the James Beard Award-nominated
chef and owner of the restaurants
Ajja and Big Cat in Raleigh, NC.
I first learned about Cheetie when I
saw her band play in Chicago probably
twenty-plus years ago and later
visited her restaurant Garland for
the first time while on tour in 2014.
What I didn't know until this conversation
was the full arc of how she got there,
from immigrating to the US at a young
age, to getting started in punk rock,
teaching herself to cook and reading
cookbooks on tour, and eventually
opening a music venue and restaurant,
all of it fueled by the same DIY spirit
that she brought to everything else.
You can find Cheetie on Instagram
@cheetieku, that's C-H-E-E-T-I-E-K-U,
and follow her restaurants Ajja
Eats and Big Cat on Brookside.
So thanks for being here, and I
hope you enjoy this conversation
with Chef Cheetie Kumar.
Cheetie Kumar: Hello.
Timothy Iseler: hello, how are you?
Cheetie Kumar: Good.
How are you doing?
Timothy Iseler: I'm doing
very well, thank you.
Cheetie Kumar: hear me Okay?
Timothy Iseler: I can hear you just fine.
Can you hear me?
Cheetie Kumar: Yes.
Timothy Iseler: Cool.
Should we get started?
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah, let's do it.
Timothy Iseler: Awesome.
What do you tell people
you do for a living?
Cheetie Kumar: Um, I fix problems.
Timothy Iseler: I.
Cheetie Kumar: a, I call
myself a chef and owner.
Timothy Iseler: So when I first became
aware of you is when I saw The Cherry
Valence play at the Empty Bottle in
Chicago in the mid two thousands.
Uh, I think you were playing with
The Dishes, if memory serves.
And then the next time was when I came
to Garland in Raleigh, when I was on
tour with Sharon Van Etten in 2014.
So I was hoping you could give me just
the, sort of the Cliff's Notes version
of how you went from being a rock and
roller to a chef and a restaurant owner.
'cause I, I genuinely don't know that.
Cheetie Kumar: Oh my goodness.
So, yeah, we have long history
that I, unbeknownst to me,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: well.
I mean, I can go deep or I can just
give you the sort of like chronological
bio, but I mean, music and food have
always been my saviors, I guess.
Uh, part of it is like me, as an
immigrant coming to this country when
I was like eight, food was such an
important part of my family's connection
to India and my mother's attempt to
keep us rooted in our culture without
stifling assimilation into American life.
Um, so she, she taught me how to cook and,
I, you know, looked to punk rock and art
rock as a, uh, vestige from, you know, the
utter like loneliness and isolation that a
kid feels when they move to a new country.
And, you know, so I was like really
obsessed with music, but I didn't
think of it as like a career.
I didn't think of food as a career.
And, you know, I'm from India
thought like my options were
doctor, lawyer, maybe engineer.
but you know, when I was in college
at UMass, I started working at the
radio station and, you know, DJing and
being like a cons on the concert board.
Thought, well, maybe I can make a life
out of like music business management.
So I did that and eventually realized that
I hated managing other people's careers.
I just wanted to play guitar and so I
kind of taught myself to play guitar.
And food was like something
that I just really, you know,
I'd always cooked for people.
I'd have like 30 person dinner parties
in my little apartment, you know?
and it was just something that I,
I've, you know, always just been a
part of my DNA and when I started
touring, um, I, uh, worked in a
restaurant to support my touring life.
Uh,
Timothy Iseler: Hmm.
Cheetie Kumar: First I was in the kitchen,
but then I realized, well, if I make a
living at something, it's not gonna be
music, and it's not gonna be cooking.
So, I was bartending for a long time.
But when we were on tour, I would,
you know, kind of read cookbooks
and food magazines and just sort of
be, you know, the, the whole era of
deprivation, I think like when you're
on tour, you don't get to eat very much.
So I'm already a food obsessed
person, so all I could think about was
You know, studying food and
maybe fantasizing about eating
something that I couldn't afford.
and so we did that for a while and
playing guitar made me want to cook
and cooking made me wanna play guitar.
And so it was just like I was
serving two masters at the same time.
And that's sort of how it evolved.
And then in the meantime, my husband and
a couple of friends opened a music venue.
and that was around the same time
The Cherry Valence, uh, started.
Um, because we were just sort of
bemoaning, uh, the lack of a, a, uh,
like by musicians style venue that we
saw in other cities when we were touring.
We'd go places and, you know,
even like The Empty Bottle was
a place that felt like cultural
spot, a third place for people.
You know, they just ran it like a venue.
And at that time, Raleigh
didn't really have that.
We had these like kind of more
Southern traditional venues that
had a lot of cover bands and didn't
really get weirdos, you know?
And they, they ripped us off and didn't
really understand the hospitality that
is so important to a touring band.
And, you know, all they really
cared about was the draw.
so we opened a music venue that,
you know, didn't make any money.
And so then we kept doing that but
realized that maybe we wanted a, a
little more than that and wanted to
have like a small restaurant, um, with
a really limited menu, maybe like a
food truck that didn't go anywhere.
But we ended up with a lease on a
space that had a, real restaurant
and I ended up needing to run that.
So that's sort of how it,
it, it all kind of evolved.
Um, in 2010, we opened the new
location for Kings, music venue.
And then that had a, a basement bar called
Neptune's, and then we opened Garland,
uh, in 2013, all in the same building.
So that's sort of how it evolved.
The, the lease came
before the, the search.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah.
Did at that point, you obviously,
you mentioned you had worked in
kitchens, you had been a bartender,
did you have any formal training as
a chef, or, or are you self-taught?
Cheetie Kumar: Um, self-taught.
Timothy Iseler: Okay.
Cheetie Kumar: no formal training.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
I didn't place this connection until
you just said, you mentioned punk
rock and art rock, that there really
is a, a spirit in punk rock and indie
rock to a degree of, like, you don't
need permission to do the thing.
You know, you can start your own band,
you can start your own record label,
you can release your own seven inches.
And it seems to me that maybe the, the
whole idea of like the King's Garland
Neptune is a really similar vibe of
just, you know, this doesn't exist
here, we want it here, let's just do it.
Cheetie Kumar: That's exactly what it was.
I mean, you know, at the time
I think it was this convergence
of Raleigh's, uh, real estate
market in downtown was nothing.
I mean, there was nothing there.
So we could afford get a space that,
you know, was laughably low rent.
you know, it just was, we were
ready at a time that Raleigh had the
opportunity available for people like us.
You know, uh, people with more, I
don't know, gumption then sense and
experience and we just took that leap.
But yeah, it was a hundred percent DIY.
I we were, we were booking shows and like
our, our, we were practicing, um, we had
a rehearsal space in a warehouse you know,
so like case in point, this band Carp, you
know, came through and I had booked a show
for them at the brewery, which was like
one of the venues I've mentioned before
that didn't really have, you know, our
culture, and they just ignored the show.
So they're like, Nope,
you don't have a show.
And so we just put the show on in
the warehouse and, you know, of
course the cops came, but, you know,
was, it was that kind of thing.
You know, it's, it's that time where
like before everything was on the
internet, everything was based on
relationships and phone calls and,
you know, sometimes even letters.
So yeah, we just did it 'cause we had to.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Was there anybody, or can you think of
anyone who, around that time that you
were starting Garland, who gave you
the support or the confidence to, to
believe like, yes, this is something
we can do, this is a good idea?
Cheetie Kumar: Well, right,
right around the same time, my
good friend Ashley Christensen
Timothy Iseler: Ah.
Cheetie Kumar: was, she was
cooking in town and so the old
Kings closed before she moved in
next door to open Poole's diner.
and she and I were, weren't like very
close friends at that point, but, you
know, we were friends and she was the
only person in, in my mind, in this, in
Raleigh that was like cooking real food.
You know, she had an ethos, she
was supporting local farmers.
And I just, you know, I would go to the
farmer's market before, like long before
I was a chef, and would buy things for
my house and, you know, go like, why,
When I go to a restaurant in Raleigh, I'm
not seeing any of these beautiful things
that I'm, I can, they're right here.
Like these farmers are growing
these gorgeous produce all the time.
Our farmer's market's
open 363 days a year.
Why do I not see this
represented on local menus?
I just see, you know, real chicken
breasts with balsamic drizzle.
Like, why?
You know?
Um.
But she's, she kind of connected that
dot, and she was also like a much, she
had much more of a pedigree as far as
like, you know, restaurant experience,
but she was also self-taught and she
just had this, like, personal viewpoint.
And Andrea Reusing did the
same thing in at Lantern.
There were just like a few people that,
and they happened to be women that were
just kind of like getting an idea and
doing it and doing it extremely well.
And it, you know, once you see somebody
doing something like that, it was
like, oh yeah, maybe I can do that too.
But, but for me it was
also like a part of, um...
you know, at the time, making
food that wasn't Eurocentric was
not really recognized in, in a
Southern, small Southern town, city.
it was always kind of,
relegated to cheap eats.
And I just really wanted to make
that connection between cultures and
the produce that's grown here is so
similar to what's grown in Northern
India and like, you know, Southern
Asia, and west Asia now, you know,
formerly known as the Middle East,
I'm gonna say that's formerly known.
Um, you know, it's just, uh, I, I really
was inspired by, by that woven tapestry
and felt like that had a place here.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Garland has since closed and you, you've
opened two new restaurants since then.
Did you know that you had sort of an
entrepreneurial spirit, or was that
a surprise to you to, to learn that?
Cheetie Kumar: yes and no.
I never thought of myself as that.
I think, you know, I was just so terrified
of like writing a resume that I did, I did
anything I could to like, do it myself.
I mean, I, I knew that I had a DIY spirit.
I knew that.
never felt like there was anything
that I couldn't learn how to do.
I like, I like to learn and,
but I never thought of myself
in exactly that, that way.
I mean, an entrepreneur sounded a
lot more qualified than what I was.
And honestly, you know,
that's not self-deprecation.
That's just the reality of the situation.
Like, I just didn't really know
what I was doing, I wanted to learn.
And I knew that I was not afraid to work
as hard as I needed to to get there.
And I'm always kind of drawn to, uh,
projects that involve collaboration.
And I think that's why I was like, really,
into the idea of restaurants and bands.
Same thing.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.
Do you, I don't know if this is gonna
be a good question or a bad question.
Like, uh, well, I have
worked in restaurants.
I've never run a restaurant, but
I've been in bands and sometimes that
collaboration is amazing and sometimes
that collaboration is frustrating.
Cheetie Kumar: Mm-hmm.
Timothy Iseler: Are there times when,
uh, I mean, there must be times when
you're, you know, the feeling is just
sort of like, why can't we do it my way?
You know, like, collaboration
is great, but what about my way?
Isn't that better?
Do you ever have those feelings?
And, and if so, how do
you deal with those?
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah.
I mean, you know, that's, that's
a part of the process I think.
Like, I didn't, I didn't really know
how to express my, I, you know, if
I felt strongly about something,
I was always very, like, generous
with my, um, control, right?
Like, I, I really, you know, kind of
considered all ideas, and I still do.
But now I think with, with the experience
I have, the, I feel like I have the right
to say, no, this is how we're gonna do
it, because I've made so many mistakes.
And, at the time it was, you know,
it was just like, a gut feeling.
And a lot of times when it came down to
it, when it was something really make it
or break it, I did end up doing it my way.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Cheetie Kumar: but I would, you know,
I'm, I'd still always listen to ideas
because sometimes there's, even if it's
not the exact way, there's a kernel of,
of brilliance in, in a lot of ideas.
And you know, it's like sometimes you
can just even identify a problem, even
if it's not the right solution, but it
helps you understand the situation better.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: I think it's,
it's really important to, to
like weigh, weigh all opinions.
Even, you know, even if it's somebody
without experience, they, they might
view something with a, an objectivity
that you don't have because you're just
so used to looking at things in one way.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's a, that's a great point.
I have found as I've gotten older
and gotten a little less headstrong,
that there are times when I think I'm
right and the other person is wrong,
but in the interest of not having a
fight about it, I'm just sort of like,
you add a little bit of pause and I'm
like, okay, let's try it your way.
You know?
Whereas in the past I might've
been like, no, no, no, I'm right.
And, and it is amazing when you can
open yourself up to someone else's idea
that you disagreed with originally,
and then see that it totally works
and it, it's actually better.
Cheetie Kumar: Yes.
And you know, ultimately, like if you're,
if you're working on a collaboration
and all of these things are, it's
really the best thing is what's best
for the, the whole, the whole project.
Like, really, you gotta take your ego out.
And I love, I love being wrong because
that means that what I thought was
the best idea, wasn't the best idea.
And there's something
even better out there.
That's great.
We all win.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You can tell me if you don't want to
answer this or you want to take this
question out, but one of the things that
I noticed when I would go into Garland
was that you were always in the kitchen.
And now with two different restaurants,
like clearly you can't always be the
one in the kitchen doing this stuff.
How, how has that process been
for you to let go of that?
Cheetie Kumar: well, that's,
that's a great question actually.
I'm, and I don't think there's
anything wrong with asking it.
I think that, you know, for a long
time I really needed to have my
hands in everything, just to make
sure that it was being done right.
Um, and for, for a few reasons.
You know, it's not just like a
control thing, but a lot of the food
at Garland was, it's not Eurocentric
and I really didn't have staff that
like understood that food, you know?
so it was a lot of people that either
viewed it as not, not as worthy or not
as like, uh, fine as a French thing, or,
or just plain like, you know, there's
just some stuff that the techniques
are totally different and you can't
assume that just 'cause you learn
something school, it doesn't apply here.
So, you know, and I needed to figure
out like better ways to do stuff.
So I was, I was always there.
And then it turned into sort of
like a hypervigilance, right?
I couldn't let it go.
and that was a really long process of,
understanding how to have boundaries,
mental boundaries, and release the
anxiety and like, really, you know,
I, I think a lot of restaurateurs will
relate to this, but like, it feels like
every time you step away, goes wrong
and you're being, you're being punished
for daring to take the time off or to
like relax or go out of town or take
a vacation or even take a day off.
But you know, now I'm like, you know what?
Even if I was there,
something would go wrong.
It's just that I'm there to deal with it.
Like it's not, being punished.
There is no vengeful God that
is like saying how dare you.
Um, and I think it's just a matter of
like understanding that you're never
gonna solve, solve your restaurant.
You're never gonna to a point
where, you know, this death by
a thousand cuts isn't happening.
You just have to choose
to say, oh, this can wait.
And you know that it's gonna get
solved because you've done it a
million times before and you just
have to have faith in yourself
that like, it'll be there tomorrow.
If you need that time today, don't break.
You know?
And you know, I, I tend to have like a,
a little bit of social anxiety, so I do
feel more comfortable in the kitchen.
I, I like the camaraderie I get,
I get really focused on, you know,
r and d or like, when its service
is going a certain way, some,
sometimes there's like, you know, an
emergency fix that needs to happen.
And I find it really hard to like, change
my brain to like step out and talk to
tables and, you know, touch tables.
I know that's a part of my job, but that's
like probably the, the thing I'm more at.
And
Timothy Iseler: Hmm.
Cheetie Kumar: I just, I'm still
working on that mental block.
yeah.
So I, I just gravitate towards
kitchens and people in kitchens.
just my, my neurosis.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah,
that makes total sense.
Maybe this will be a natural transition
to what you're talking about, about the
more Eurocentric focus and whatever, but
I do a lot of cooking at, in our house.
I do the majority of cooking in our house.
And one thing that has always sort
of intimidated me about Indian food
and Middle Eastern, west Asian, you
know, different types of food, non
Eurocentric food, it's both the volume
and the variety of spices involved.
And I wanted to ask you about this
collaboration you have with Spice Walla.
What is that?
And, you know, do you
have more of them planned?
Cheetie Kumar: well, Spice Walla is owned
by a dear friend of mine, uh, Meherwan.
He and I became friends, uh, maybe
like seven or eight years ago.
And we with, uh, Vishwesh Bhatt
and Maneet Chauhan and, you know,
a few other Indian origin, chefs
of Indian origin in the South had a
collective called Brown in the South.
And that was a really important
collaboration or, uh, organization
that, you know, I was a part of.
still am, I guess, uh, loosely...
yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the
way the French have mother sauces
and Chinese have, um, you know, like
different techniques that are kind of the
fundamentals of their food, Indian recipes
when you write them out in a magazine,
yeah, it looks very intimidating,
but generally there's a base and it
involves either wet or dry masalas.
You know, onions, ginger, garlic
are sort of the fundamental
Mirepoix of, of Indian food.
And everything is kind of built
on that bloom of aromatics, in the
beginning and sometimes at the end.
So like when you put it all
together, yeah, it looks like
there's 30 components in each dish.
But if you, if you're a cook who is
familiar with Indian food, you know
that you have like a box of spices
and there's usually like 10 or 12
spices in, in there and you just kind
of always have 'em at the ready, have
a little spoon and you, you throw
a little pinch of this and a little
pinch of that into all these recipes.
And the different combinations of
these 10 or 12 ingredients create
new and vibrant flavor profiles.
It's not really, you know,
just salt and pepper.
It's not also like you're starting
from scratch with every single recipe.
so it's just a, like, once you
understand what the fun fundamentals
are, it's not as intimidating.
Um, the Spice Wall collaboration,
like I, we've been talking about it
for like five years and finally the,
the, the time was right and I think
it was actually like deadline came
and that's how things always happen.
It was like, you have a deadline.
Um, there was a, the North Carolina
Museum of Art had a, an exhibit, that
was about the trade routes between
Istanbul and Italy and, like Milan, uh,
and Istanbul, or Constantinople that at
that time, had this amazing trade and
they wanted me to do like a, a demo and
find a product that we could sell that
was kind of inspired by that route.
I thought, oh, you know, a saffron and
rose of profile would be kind of fun.
So we ditched the saffron and
came up with the rose harissa,
and that's how it was born.
I'd love, you know, I, I hope
we do more in the future.
I think that was a super fun project
and I'm really happy with it.
Timothy Iseler: Maybe this ties
in, maybe not, but there's certain
types of music where you can only
really do them a certain way.
Like for example, like Raagas, you can't,
you, you, you do them the way you do
them, and you can't change the key because
then it's a different type of music.
Is how much of that applies
to Indian cooking in general,
or your cooking in particular?
Like in terms of being able
to alter the mix of spices or
alter the recipe on the fly?
Like, do you do that a lot or if you do
that, is it no longer the right recipe?
Cheetie Kumar: Oh, that's
a really good question.
well, I always kind of approach things...
i, I, I do a lot of research
and I try to find, know, of
combination of different sources.
So sometimes online, a lot of cookbooks,
and I try to get to the heart of
what makes a dish itself, right?
Like some fundamentals that when you
change them, it's no longer that dish
and you can't really call it that.
But I also, being an immigrant and
really understanding the migration
of food and the evolution of food,
It's all done by people traveling
and people going to different
places and bringing new ideas and
assimilating with the, their new homes.
Recipes are, are dynamic
and living things.
They're not the, like, hardly
anything is ever the same from, you
know, one year to 25 years later.
It's always evolving.
And, you know, people, people
tend to be really stuck in
what they think is authentic.
Especially the, the folks that like
leave a country and go to a new place.
They, they get this like frozen
idea of what, what food is.
Like, you know, Rajma
Chawal has to be this way.
And like, you know, I don't know, even
hummus or whatever, like, whatever it is.
Uh, meanwhile that that dish or
that idea of food is evolving
in the home country, right?
It's no longer recognizable 25 years,
but yet the family that has left that
country has come to a new place is
like, oh my God, we can never change
this recipe because it belongs to us.
I mean, you know, there, it's, it's a
really, it's an interesting question
that I don't think has an answer.
I, my personal perspective is
to respect the fundamentals.
If you have a deep understanding of the
why and the, um, basic techniques and
approaches and the reasons for way, you
know, why the recipes are the way they
are, are they based in colonialism?
Are they based in, famine?
Are they based in necessity?
Are they based in the soil of that place?
Are they based in tradition, assimilation?
Like, what is it, you know?
You imagine what's happening to
the food and Palestine right now?
It's, it's, it's gonna be evolving.
You know, there's no way it can't.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: so, you know, respect
with a healthy dose of creativity
and relevance to where you are.
I think that is, those are the
three legs that I try to stand on.
Timothy Iseler: How are you doing
most of that research these days?
You mentioned when you were
touring, you would read cookbooks.
What are you doing right now to
kind of keep up on those changes?
Cheetie Kumar: I still read cookbooks.
I,
Timothy Iseler: Hmm.
Cheetie Kumar: have, I
have a lot of cookbooks.
I obviously, you know, I look online, I
still read cooking magazines, but, and you
know, a lot of information on Instagram.
Like a lot of my feed is,
is, uh, reels of recipes.
And, uh, you know, I look at some of
that and it's really easy to suss out
stuff that's just like for clicks.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: but I, I really do try
to back it up with, you know, a few
published tested recipes that are only,
you know, those are only in cookbooks.
Um, nobody's really vetting
online recipes that much.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point.
What's one thing you think you do
really well in your personal finances?
Cheetie Kumar: I'm very diligent about
reconciliation and categorization.
So like, I'm, I'm very anal retentive
about tracking expenses and revenue
and seeing what works and what doesn't.
I think you can't assume
anything about finances.
You, there's no substitute
for keeping up with it.
Like, you look away for five
seconds and you're, you're in the
red, so you just really have to
stay on top of it, and there's no
substitute for doing it constantly.
And keeping up with it.
Yeah.
Timothy Iseler: Did you already have
that habit before the restaurants or,
or did they kind of come hand in hand?
Cheetie Kumar: Um, I did not have
that habit before the restaurant.
I was, mean, for a long time I didn't
have the time or the bandwidth to
even look at the finances, you know?
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Cheetie Kumar: And I just knew
that we weren't doing well.
Like, uh, but finally when I came out
from under it, it took like three years
of really establishing like a good chart
of accounts, finding a good bookkeeper,
understanding how to categorize things.
What is a p and l?
I didn't even know what that was.
yeah, it took me a really long time.
I mean like seven or eight years
after opening a restaurant.
And I was lucky that we made it.
Timothy Iseler: Wow.
Cheetie Kumar: Through that mess.
I mean, you know, all the
only thing I knew about was
cashflow because I could see it.
Know, do we have enough money for payroll?
And if we don't, do I need, do we need
to like, borrow money to put into the
business to, to make payroll and pay rent?
And because we never, you know, we
never kind of compromised on that stuff.
We never owed people money, like our
vendors or our landlords or our staffs.
But other than that, you know, we
didn't get paid for a really long time.
So it was like a slow learning process,
doing a lot of kind of like on the job
and realizing that like, if you don't
categorize things properly, you really
can't track what your COGS percentage is.
You can't track your labor if you don't
have a good of organized structure of, um.
You know, job codes and where,
where's, where's your labor high?
Like, is it, is it, you know, is it
the bartender that's prepping too long
or is it like, are you overstaffed?
Are you understaffed?
Like, what is it, you know?
Why am I still stuck in
the kitchen 16 hours a day?
Where is this, you know,
where, what's happening?
So you just, you know, there were so many
times when I, I would think it was one
thing, but then when you actually like,
look at the numbers, it's like, oh, yep.
Well, not what I thought.
You
Timothy Iseler: Wow.
Cheetie Kumar: anything about finances.
Timothy Iseler: Do you have, does
any example come to mind of that
where you specifically thought it was
one thing and then you crunched the
numbers and it was something else?
Cheetie Kumar: yeah, I mean, I kind of
like, I thought that Kings was doing
better than it was, but when I looked
at really the sales from month to month,
quarter to quarter, we just realized
that it was barely breaking even.
Because, you know, you would
just think like, well, we've had
like six good nights this month.
Surely that means...
but we didn't really have a good
handle on what those expenses were.
And they're just so many, like
expensive supplies that are required
for a music venue, mic cables,
microphones, all of those repairs are
just like, not, they're not cheap.
And that part of it
doesn't make you any money.
It's like you're just making money
at the bar one PBR at a time.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: you know, breaking it
down that way was, was really important.
I also was very afraid to charge the
Garland menu, like what the, what
the food actually needed to be, what
the menu should have been priced at.
I didn't have a good handle on it.
It was just more of an emotional feeling.
Like, I don't want it to be over, you
know, $20 or $25 because nobody will come.
People aren't, you know, uh, listen
to the reviews that like, oh, Indian
food shouldn't be this expensive.
You know, they have no
butter chicken on their menu.
There's only one chicken dish on the menu.
Why is it like blah, blah, blah?
didn't really take into consideration
all of the, um, the ethos that
were behind the restaurant.
Like what we were paying people,
who we were su, you know, who our
suppliers were, who our farmers were.
Like all of the care and the labor that
really goes into making food like that,
it wasn't really reflected on the menu.
So it wasn't until I like really
dissected our cost of goods that
I realized, oh my God, like our
prices were way, way too low.
Even if we were super
busy, we would never.
Be profitable, so, yeah.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's a great thing.
Well, it's a painful lesson to realize,
but it's a great lesson to, to figure out
Cheetie Kumar: Yes.
Timothy Iseler: what do you think is
the best financial decision you ever
made, and that could be something
you decided not to do as well.
Cheetie Kumar: we did not get
investors in our first restaurant.
Like we, we never had investors
until this new project.
And even this project, the investors
are people in the neighborhood
that just wanted to kind of
support this particular location.
But we, we never gave away equity before.
And that that was, that was hard.
But you know, when we finally figured
out how to do it, it was all ours.
We didn't have to share it with anybody.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's fantastic.
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah.
Timothy Iseler: If you could
change, like say magically change
one part of your financial life,
what would that be and why?
Cheetie Kumar: Oh, I wish I was born rich.
Timothy Iseler: Oh boy.
Cheetie Kumar: Oh, I wish I,
yeah, I mean, I wish I had, you
know, had a, had a rich uncle.
I wish that...
I mean, I, I, you know, that's
a, that's a tough question.
Mean, I, I kind of wish that
I had financial literacy a lot
earlier in my career than I did.
you know, I, I just, what can you do?
You can't, you can't back the
hands of time as they say.
So,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: yeah.
Timothy Iseler: And so much of
financial literacy is just you, I
like your, your point about being
born rich is, is not far off it.
Like so much of it has to do with what did
your parents think, how much did they talk
about money or not talk about money, and
what were the circumstances growing up?
Because
Cheetie Kumar: Yes,
Timothy Iseler: you could have
very responsible parents who,
you know, just money was tight.
And so you learn one set of lessons
versus the exact same people at
the exact same disposition who,
you know, weren't struggling, would
pass on totally different lessons.
Cheetie Kumar: a hundred percent.
That is exact.
You nailed it right there.
I mean, we grew up scarcity.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Cheetie Kumar: Um, so we
moved to this country.
We had $400, three children, two bedroom
apartment for five people, in the Bronx.
And you know, it was never a time long
as I lived in my parents' house that we
felt okay, like it was highly insecure.
So my relationship with money
was not, was not comfortable.
And, you know, it was so much later,
like years into owning a restaurant, I
would hear people talk about comment,
how much money they, you know, like, oh,
we did 50 grand last week or last night,
or whatever, and I'd be like filled
with shame that we weren't successful
and I didn't know how to get there and
I didn't know how to talk about it.
And I really felt like I
had to keep it a secret.
Like how, how ignorant I was and like
how poorly we were doing, you know?
I don't know, it just kind
of hid from it in a way.
but, you know, it was, I think looking
back and lots of therapy later, I
couldn't realize it was, it was,
you know, that's the imprint that's
like how, we grew up and it had
do a lot to kind of like excavate
that relationship in my own psyche.
Timothy Iseler: Do you think you have?
Cheetie Kumar: It's a work in progress.
Timothy Iseler: Okay, good.
Cheetie Kumar: I have the tools, I
have the tools, and I have the desire.
So yeah,
Timothy Iseler: good.
What's something you love
to do that's cheap or free?
Cheetie Kumar: sleep.
Um, pick up a guitar, uh, when, you
know, when I'm not utterly exhausted.
Um, play tennis in the park.
like love on my cats and
snuggle with my husband.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Do you get to play much guitar these days?
Cheetie Kumar: No, sadly,
but it's, it's there.
It's next to my, next to
the couch, next to my bed.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: It'll happen this year.
Timothy Iseler: Good, good, good.
I know you have another
commitment right after this.
So before we start to wrap it up, is
there anywhere you would like to send
people to learn more about you to, I
don't know, get announcements, social
media, website, anything like that?
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm
not great about like static posts on
Instagram, but I do post a lot of stories.
Um, it's @cheetiku, C-H-E-E-T-I-E-K-U.
I'm not on Facebook or TikTok.
and you know, follow my restaurants,
Ajja Eats and Big Cat on Brookside.
Timothy Iseler: Excellent.
Okay, so Cheeti, I end every conversation
with a question from my guest.
You asked me to name five essential
financial literacy elements for a
first time small business owner.
And I'm gonna do my best
to keep this concise, okay?
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah.
Timothy Iseler: The, the first one that
I thought of was just to separate your
business money from your personal money,
which is very difficult for people to
do when they're, uh, sole proprietor,
freelancer doing a one person business.
But I think it makes
everything else easier.
And even if you were just, you know, let's
say a freelancer and you don't have a
proper business entity or anything like
that, just having one bank account where
all of the business goes and none of
the personal stuff goes in there, or one
credit card, even if it's, if it's not a,
you know, quote unquote business credit
card where all the business stuff happens
and none of the personal stuff happens.
I think that's a great first step.
It'll definitely help with any kind
of bookkeeping, and it'll also help
at tax time, which is, you know, you
know, when we're speaking, it's the
day before the tax filing deadline,
that'll help you track any, certainly
any business income, but also it'll
be right there in black and white.
What are your business expenses?
Well, they're only on these one or
two statements versus coming through
all of your bank accounts, trying
to figure out what you can write
off and what you can't write off.
So separate your, your business money from
your personal money is a great first step.
The next thing I would say, you already
mentioned this earlier, which is that
revenue is not the same as profit.
And I know a lot of people kind
of look at that top line number
of like, oh, you know, I brought
in this much money this year.
But if you're not good at managing your
expenses, that doesn't mean that that
much money actually flows through to you.
You know?
So there's the top line, which is
the revenue, the money coming in, and
then the bottom line is the profit.
And in between are all of the expenses.
And one example that I thought of is, I
had a conversation a few years ago with a,
a very successful commercial photographer
who was bringing in, in terms of revenue,
was bringing in, I don't remember exactly,
so I'm gonna say in the ballpark of 300 to
$500,000, but almost all of that money was
going right back out to pay for assistants
or staff or equipment rentals or travel.
And so the, even though the business
was, the top line revenue looked amazing,
this business owner was really only
taking home less than a hundred K.
So, you know, the, the revenue
is not the same as the profit.
And, and that's an important
thing to understand.
Uh, the third thing is just to
understand some really basic
metrics and how they fit together.
I already mentioned revenue, expenses,
that's all the money going out,
profit is what you get to keep.
But then there's also concepts around
margin, which is what percentage
of the money that comes in actually
goes to the business owner.
And then if you're considering
taking on a new project or making
a new product or whatever, a
new income stream, understanding
where the break even point is.
In other words, how much money
does this thing have to make before
it even makes sense to try it?
And sometimes you want to try something
just 'cause you, you want to see if
it'll work, but before you sink a
bunch of time and energy into offering
a new service or a new product, like
figuring out what does it actually
need to make before it's worth doing?
The next one I think of thought, or the
next one I thought of you definitely
mentioned, which is to base your prices
or your fees on what you actually need
to make versus what you think is fair
or, or what your intuition tells you.
And I definitely, definitely see
this with creative professionals
who are sort of afraid to have it be
perceived that they're overcharging.
So you might quote a rate that you
think sounds fair or is good, or like
you said, you know, you might set your
menu prices at what you think they ought
to be, but what you kind of need to do
is work backwards and figure out what
do you actually need to make, and then
price based on that instead of just sort
of what feels good or what feels safe.
and then the fifth thing is just to build
up a lot of extra cash, much more cash
than you would need on hand if you were a
regular W2 employee with a straight job.
And that'll help you navigate the ups and
downs of every single business there is.
There's no business where it's predictable
from month to month or quarter to quarter.
And that will also help you get ahead
of tax time because a lot of people I
know who are self-employed don't do an
awesome job of keeping track of their
taxes throughout the year, and so, you
know, around this time of year, if you
find yourself with a big tax bill, it's
awesome to have extra cash on hand.
so I would like to get your feedback
on those and, you know, maybe if you
had anything to offer or anything to
uh, correct, I would appreciate that.
Cheetie Kumar: I could not have
picked five better items myself.
Yes, uh, the, the boundaries personal and
business finances, but then also like,
you know, zoom out into like your life.
Like your life is not your business
and your business is not your life.
You're not defined by it.
And, and creating those boundaries, like
I, I think that your financial structure
and your systems, everything should match
what you want your life to look like.
And create your systems and create your
financial structure, your label models,
everything that they should, they should
be harmonious because you're gonna
have to live that every single day.
And if you don't do it, if you don't set
it, set things up in a way that feels good
for you, you're not gonna be happy because
this is gonna consume you all the time.
It's not easy to, to run a business.
So think that, like, you'll
start, start this way.
And that's, you know, when you
get to this point, whatever
that point is, you'll fix it.
It doesn't work.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: Do it from the beginning,
Timothy Iseler: That's such a great point.
I think a lot of people imagine, it's,
it's true for running a business, but
it's also just for money in general,
they imagine I'll get to this point
and then everything will become
easier and instead you get to that
point and now you have new problems.
And maybe they're better problems,
but you don't, nobody really gets to a
point where all the problems go away.
Cheetie Kumar: no.
And you know, the longer you
wait, the harder it is to
undo things and fix things.
Like do it, do it right
from the start if you can.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's great.
I love the way you were putting
that in the context of what do
you want your life to look like?
Because I know some people who
are just extremely, extremely
driven regardless of whether
they're getting paid for it or not.
So if you're the type of person who
would be working 60 hours a week
just 'cause you're, you love what
you do and you're passionate like,
awesome, that can be your business.
But if the point of your business
is to have more freedom in your
life, you need to, you need to
be deliberate about that upfront.
Cheetie Kumar: Exactly.
Don't put yourself last, you know?
Timothy Iseler: yeah, exactly.
I thought of a, kind of a bonus one,
and you also touched on this a little
bit, and that's understanding the
difference between equity and debt
Cheetie Kumar: Mm-hmm.
Timothy Iseler: Need to
raise some more money.
I heard it explained this way, and
I think it makes a lot of sense.
If you're confident that the thing
you're doing will work out, then
debt is a good option because you
know, you'll be able to pay it off.
Cheetie Kumar: Right.
Timothy Iseler: And, and if you know
that your business or you're, you know,
you're extremely confident your business
is gonna work out, then there's no
point in giving someone else ownership.
But if you're not confident, your
business will work out, then you
would still be stuck with that
debt, even if the business failed.
And in that situation, e selling equity
is a good idea because if somebody
buys equity in your business and it
fails, you don't owe them anything.
Cheetie Kumar: Mm-hmm.
Timothy Iseler: But of course, the
downside is that if it succeeds,
now you've got somebody else
with their own opinions about
how you should be doing things.
So there's, there's trade-offs, but
the difference between taking out a
loan or taking on debt versus selling
equity as diff two different ways
to raise money within your business.
I thought that would be kind
of like a, an extra credit for
somebody who's new to business.
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah, a hundred percent.
I think that's.
Really well put.
And you know, there's no guarantees in any
of this and there's nothing like hardly
anything more risky than a restaurant,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: food and
beverage businesses.
But, you know, sometimes you have
opportunities that are a little bit
beyond your financial abilities.
And if you're not able to borrow the
money or you know, you're not in a
hundred, like say you have an opportunity
to open a restaurant in the lobby
of a hotel, like you're not in full
control over that situation and you
know, maybe somebody's giving you a lot
of money and they have an investment
group that's ready to back you, great.
But just remember like, just 'cause
they give you money for a certain, a
small percentage of your equity and
they're giving you construction money,
you still have to run that day after
day, and you're still responsible
for the profitability of, of that.
And even if you're not financially
responsible, you'll go, you're
gonna feel that internal pressure.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: You know.
Yeah.
I think, you know, if, if it's something
that you believe in, and again, you've
figured out what your break even point
is, and that includes your loan payments
and that feels like really realistic,
then by all means borrow if you can.
But if, if it's, if it's not, then
I'm not sure you should even do it.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Cheetie Kumar: You know, but then like
maybe you have an investor who's willing
to go on that scary trip with you.
Cool.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I would also say there's a difference
between an investor who's a friend of
yours who wants you to succeed, and an
investor who it's putting up their own
money 'cause they wanna make money.
And that person, you mentioned how at
different points in the business, you
just weren't able to pay yourself, if
you have a certain type of investor
who's not doing it, 'cause they're your
friend and they believe in you, they're
not happy if a few months or years
go by and there's no money, you know?
They want their money.
That's why they're doing it.
So those are important considerations.
Cheetie Kumar: Yeah.
Investment, you know, used to be
like pretty reasonable rate of
return, but it is not anymore.
Timothy Iseler: no.
Cheetie Kumar: high.
It's almost like a credit card now.
So it's not, I'm not sure what the
scenario would be where that would be
more attractive than getting a loan.
Timothy Iseler: Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time.
Cheetie Kumar: Thank you.
Um, this was a really great
conversation and I appreciate your
flexibility rescheduling twice already.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah,
that's no problem at all.
Cheetie Kumar: It.
Okay.
Uh, take care.
Let
Timothy Iseler: thanks.
Cheetie Kumar: anything.
Okay?
Timothy Iseler: I will.
Thanks so much.
Bye.
Cheetie Kumar: Bye.
Timothy Iseler: Thank you to
Cheetie for talking with me today.
I knew Cheetie from a distance
as a musician and as a chef, but
this is really the first time
we've had an actual conversation.
I really enjoyed how openly she talked
about the financial challenges and
blind spots of getting started in the
restaurant business and how thoughtful
she is about her relationship with money.
I think that anyone who has
built something from scratch and
figured it out as they went can
relate to the things she shared.
So thank you again to Chef Cheetie
Kumar, and you can find her on
Instagram @ cheetieku, . Again,
that's C-H-E-E-T-I-E-K-U.
And if you are in the Raleigh area,
do yourself a favor and visit her
restaurants Ajja and Big Cat on Brookside.
That's it for today.
I will be back next week to
talk about what money can't buy.
Specifically, I'll share my experience
making the most money I ever made in a
single year as a roadie and how it led
to the life and career that I have now.
I will see you back here next week.
The Thing We Never Talk
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