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The Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction podcast explores efforts to reduce nutrients in Illinois waterways from agricultural runoff to municipal wastewater with host Todd Gleason and producers Rachel Curry, Nicole Haverback and Luke Zwilling with University of Illinois Extension.
Read the blog at extension.illinois.edu/nlr/blog.
Episode 48 | Talking Conservation with Farmers
00:00:06:07 - 00:00:31:22
Todd Gleason
This is the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy Podcast, episode 48 Talking Conservation with farmers, addressing and overcoming barriers for adoption. I'm University of Illinois Extension's Todd Gleason. Today, we'll talk with a farmer and a PhD student that are both trying to figure out how to move more fully into conservation methods on the farm. We'll start with Chris Morris.
00:00:31:22 - 00:00:47:19
Todd Gleason
He is a PhD candidate in rural sociology and sustainable agriculture at Iowa State University. I began by asking him to tell us a little bit about himself, and why he was interested in the intersection between rural sociology and sustainable agriculture.
00:00:47:22 - 00:00:58:05
Chris Morris
So before grad school, I worked for 15 years in Texas as a conservationist with the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service.
00:00:58:05 - 00:01:05:26
Chris Morris
And so I worked in the field with farmers, developing conservation plans and administering conservation programs.
00:01:06:00 - 00:01:14:22
Todd Gleason
How does that differ, I suspect, from what you find in the field in Iowa as it relates to the conservation measures that are deployed?
00:01:14:25 - 00:01:27:12
Chris Morris
Iowa and Texas are very similar in terms of the resource concerns that we're looking at. So soil quality, soil erosion, water quality, wildlife habitat, air quality, things like that.
00:01:27:12 - 00:01:52:08
Chris Morris
Obviously the cropping systems are different. So the farmers that I worked with in Texas, generally did a corn, sorghum, cotton rotation, whereas a lot of the farmers in Iowa do more of a corn and beans rotation. And sometimes just corn on corn. So it's a it's a different cropping system, different climate. But at the heart of it, the conservation practices are very similar.
00:01:52:14 - 00:01:55:06
Todd Gleason
Can you tell me about the research you're currently working on?
00:01:55:12 - 00:02:24:12
Chris Morris
Yeah. So I came to grad school at ISU to basically use my experience as a conservation professional working in the field with farmers to inform my research. And I also want to teach the next generation of conservationists. So I study social and structural factors that influence farmer adoption of conservation practices and how we can best use programs, policies, education, and technical assistance to encourage and support farmers to grow our food, fiber, and fuel more sustainably.
00:02:24:17 - 00:02:35:03
Chris Morris
And so my major professor is Doctor Jay Arbuckle, and he and I have been working together for the past four years on factors that influence conservation, adoption.
00:02:35:04 - 00:02:36:02
Todd Gleason
Things like what?
00:02:36:07 - 00:02:49:05
Chris Morris
Yeah. So, I've had recently I've had three major projects that might be of interest. And so one of those studies was looking at the effect of NRCs conservation plans on conservation practice adoption.
00:02:49:07 - 00:03:18:11
Chris Morris
And what we found with that one was that it wasn't actually conservation plans that made the difference, but that multiple interactions with conservation professionals over time, through technical assistance, was actually the most consistent predictor of conservation practice adoption. So, in other words, building a relationship of trust over time between a conservation practitioner and a farmer was the thing that made, the most positive impact on getting conservation on the ground.
00:03:18:11 - 00:03:51:13
Chris Morris
I thought that was really neat. I also worked with the Soil and Water Conservation Society on a project called the Conservation Practitioner Poll, where we surveyed conservation practitioners from across six different Midwestern states. And, again, one of the main findings from that project is that according to conservation professionals, it's one on one technical assistance, preferably in the field with farmers that is, that contributes the most to success as far as getting conservation on the ground.
00:03:51:13 - 00:04:15:05
Chris Morris
Interestingly, what the conservation practitioners told us is that that's usually the thing that they get to spend the least amount of time on in their jobs. And yet it's the thing that they find the most effective for getting conservation established. I thought that was interesting. And then, part of my dissertation is also looking at how experiences of trauma can affect farmer decision making.
00:04:15:05 - 00:04:47:03
Chris Morris
So things like floods, droughts on farm injuries, the 80s farm crisis, increasingly relying on agricultural inputs that are always increasing in price, having to go through boom and bust commodity markets, even even stress over time itself can be traumatic. And and what we're finding is that these, potentially traumatic experiences can have, a real effect on farmer decision making, particularly when it comes to risk aversion.
00:04:47:05 - 00:04:54:25
Todd Gleason
Have you checked to see if there's a difference in farmer decision making and landlord decision making?
00:04:54:27 - 00:05:27:28
Chris Morris
Yeah. So that's not specifically in my wheelhouse. But I have looked at some of, the research around that. And we know that sometimes a landowner will have very different goals on their property than particularly a farmer does. We also know that farmers who are, leasing, you know, that are renting land, may or may not feel, they may not feel confident installing conservation practices on a piece of land that they might not have control over, in the long term.
00:05:27:28 - 00:05:47:29
Chris Morris
And so there is a little bit of a disconnect there. However, there's lots of really awesome stories of landowners and farmers working together where both parties feel like, again, going back to that trust factor, that they're developing a relationship of trust where they can make sure that, both of their needs are met and they're doing the best thing for the land.
00:05:48:02 - 00:05:51:06
Todd Gleason
What are the largest barriers to adoption?
00:05:51:09 - 00:06:21:20
Chris Morris
Yeah. So that's a it's a great question. And it's a big focus of the research, area that I'm involved in. I do want to give a shout out to a couple of researchers, Pranay Ranjan and Linda Procopio, who have done a lot of work, looking at doing review studies of basically the scientific literature from the past several decades on barriers and motivations for conservation, adoption and, kind of the three top factors that they have found in terms of barriers.
00:06:21:20 - 00:06:57:15
Chris Morris
Number one is economics, which we hear a lot. Number two is incorporating new practices into farm management. That can be difficult. And then we also know number three, there's a really high effect of social pressure on farmers. And if I can I want to talk about the economics part, because a lot of times people will just hear that and say, you know, they'll think that farmers, may be reluctant to install conservation practices because of the cost of those practices or the potential for reduced income.
00:06:57:18 - 00:07:20:10
Chris Morris
But my research looking into trauma has actually found that the story is a lot deeper than that. It's not just that farmers might have a decrease in their yield and therefore their income. Anyone that works with farmers know that a lot of farmers are working on very thin profit margins from year to year, and in many years, many farmers will actually take a loss.
00:07:20:10 - 00:07:42:24
Chris Morris
And so, what that means is that doing something new, incorporating new conservation practices into their farm management. And not only is that risky, but if they potentially have a failure, a catastrophic failure, and something goes really wrong, it's not just that they might have a loss of income, they might be at risk of losing the farm.
00:07:42:29 - 00:08:10:02
Chris Morris
And farmers are not just, you know, farming is not just a job. To farmers. It's a way of life. And many of these farmers are working on land that may have been in their family for several generations. And so, the thought of doing something potentially risky, you know, doesn't just come down to simple economics. It comes down to the risk of, again, potentially losing their way of life and losing a family legacy.
00:08:10:04 - 00:08:19:01
Todd Gleason
Have you seen a difference in adoption rates when farmers approached by a farmer as opposed to when a farmer was approached by a professional?
00:08:19:04 - 00:08:36:19
Chris Morris
So I haven't seen any literature that specifically looks at the difference between adoption rates. Farmers approached by, conservation professional versus another farmer. But I do know that both of those approaches are, really important depending on the farmer.
00:08:36:24 - 00:09:05:16
Chris Morris
So we know that, again, going back to these relationships of trust, which keep coming up as a main factor in my research, a lot of times farmers will trust other farmers more so than they will a conservation professional that's maybe coming from a government agency. And and so being able to network with other farmers, ask them questions about how they implemented a certain practice, what things went wrong, what they would recommend doing in the future.
00:09:05:21 - 00:09:37:15
Chris Morris
A lot of times, that's a lot easier avenue for them to begin to explore using a practice as opposed to a conservation professional coming in and just recommending something like that. That's one of the reasons that field days and, workshops are really important where you can get farmers together. And I think that when conservation professionals attend those field days as well, they're also helping to build those relationships of trust, not only with farmers, but between farmers.
00:09:37:18 - 00:09:40:20
Chris Morris
So, yeah, I think that's, that's something that can be really productive.
00:09:40:26 - 00:09:50:13
Todd Gleason
You mentioned a couple of things there that are probably successful techniques to increase the adoption of conservation practices. What other things might there be available?
00:09:50:20 - 00:10:01:00
Chris Morris
Like going back to my research, it it really comes down to relationships of trust. We know that there are a wide variety of factors that influence human behavior.
00:10:01:00 - 00:10:24:12
Chris Morris
And human behavior is really complicated. It's one of the the hardest things to model. But we do know that trust has a huge factor on behavior outcomes. And so what I would recommend to conservation professionals is to do the work of having multiple interactions with farmers over time, one on one, face to face in the field, if possible.
00:10:24:14 - 00:10:58:05
Chris Morris
We know from conservation practitioner experience, as well as talking to farmers, that that's something that really has a positive impact on conservation, adoption. And it's important that conservation professionals don't just leave it there. In terms of developing a conservation plan, getting a practice installed, and then walking away, you really have to come back and review those principles with the farmer, do some follow up and make sure that they are integrating those practices successfully into their their overall farm management.
00:10:58:07 - 00:11:23:23
Chris Morris
And then on the farmer side, I think, you know, we have a we have an interesting phenomenon called the coffee shop effect. We know that in rural communities, farmers talk to each other. A lot of times they'll gather at the coffee shop and they'll sort of, interrogate each other about what they're doing. So maybe one farmer tries, implementing cover crops, and he might hear other farmers say, you know, your your fields are looking pretty weedy there.
00:11:23:23 - 00:11:44:27
Chris Morris
Or maybe another farmer, tries no till. And, someone might tell her, you know, your your your fields are looking kind of trashy. Those are. Those are words that I've heard from farmers. And so if the farmer that has tried a new practice is willing to engage with his or her peers and say, well, actually, it's it's not weedy out there.
00:11:45:03 - 00:12:06:02
Chris Morris
I've installed a or I've incorporated a multi-species cover crop that is benefiting my soil health and reducing the amount of nitrogen that I have to put on the field every year. And they can kind of come at it from a, conversational standpoint. They can use those relationships of trust to have an influence on farmers in their community.
00:12:06:04 - 00:12:25:06
Chris Morris
We also see the effect of farmers, you know, driving by their neighbors, looking at their fields, seeing what they're doing. And I would encourage farmers to reach out to their neighbors and say, hey, would you like to come on to my place? And, and, and, talk about what I'm doing? Obviously there's a little bit of risk in opening yourself up like that.
00:12:25:06 - 00:12:43:29
Chris Morris
But I think if we're going to make a difference in soil and water conservation in the Midwest, all of us are going to have to do things that are inherently a little bit more risky. And I think ultimately, if that contributes to relationships of trust, that can be a positive impact.
00:12:44:02 - 00:12:50:27
Todd Gleason
Chris Morris is a PhD candidate in rural sociology and sustainable agriculture at Iowa State University.
00:12:50:27 - 00:13:15:11
Todd Gleason
Now on the subject of weedy fields and being able to put yourself in front of farmers, your peers, if you are a farmer and talk about what's happening in your field. Steve Staker has done just that. He's in Mercer County, where he farms in west central Illinois. I asked him to tell us a little bit about himself and what he does.
00:13:15:13 - 00:13:40:22
Steve Staker
We farm about 1600 acres. My brother, son and I, we've been, pretty much implementing cover crops now on all of our acres. With the exception of if we don't get a field seeded or something in the fall because of the weather. But, for probably a period of ten years, we've got some rougher ground that, was terraced in the early 80s.
00:13:40:22 - 00:14:03:03
Steve Staker
So we have those practices, and, like I say, we can we have, started out kind of small just getting this and then and my son kind of came into the operation like we just went 100%. And we've had our sharp learning curves along the way.
00:14:03:06 - 00:14:04:19
Todd Gleason
And are you along the river then?
00:14:04:23 - 00:14:14:01
Steve Staker
Yes, yes. We’re, we’re located a aledo, Aledo is my address, and, we're located about 15 miles from the Mississippi.
00:14:14:04 - 00:14:18:13
Todd Gleason
Can you tell me a little bit about the advanced soil health training you attended?
00:14:18:15 - 00:14:59:12
Steve Staker
The advanced soil health training was, succession. It was, it was a group of farmers, retail consultants, and, we were taught by several knowledgeable individuals, NRCs and private companies that, you know, about the biology of the soil and the cover crop implementation of, you know, how they implement cover crops, what their goal is, and then got into the, how the cover crop affects the biological activities in the soil.
00:14:59:14 - 00:15:09:21
Todd Gleason
Anything that you learned that you put into practice on your own farm, whether that was from another farmer or from the NRCs folks and others who would have been the professionals.
00:15:09:24 - 00:15:35:06
Steve Staker
We had been pretty much all cereal rye as our cover crop. This year, however, we did after going through this training. We did do some, winter barley ahead of corn, just kind of to try that as another oh, I don't want to say another species or, you know, will the barley work better than the rye ahead of corn.
00:15:35:09 - 00:15:58:22
Steve Staker
So, we did implement that. I do have, with another company, we seeded, 60 acres of, pennycress which was seeded late in the cold weather. I'm not expecting miracles out there, but, see how it goes. If we can advance along here and have the cover crop be a cash crop ahead of soybeans.
00:15:58:22 - 00:16:02:08
Steve Staker
So I think that would be an advantage, too. So
00:16:02:10 - 00:16:07:24
Todd Gleason
you've been using cover crops for a while now? I take it you like them and you think they help your systems?
00:16:07:28 - 00:16:27:08
Steve Staker
Well, we originally started looking at the cover crop. Not so much from a weed control or biological improvement. More of, erosion control implementation. And because we were, you know, we were getting a lot of from a lot of rough ground, having a lot of, erosion over the winter.
00:16:27:11 - 00:16:41:19
Steve Staker
And then once we started doing the cover crop, we've seen the other advantages, the weed control and the increased biological activities and stuff. Once a guy gets started, you know, then you see the other benefits start to kind of fall into place.
00:16:41:21 - 00:16:44:08
Todd Gleason
No till wasn't enough to hold the soil in place?
00:16:44:08 - 00:16:48:21
Steve Staker
No, no, we couldn't hold it with no till it wasn't too bad.
00:16:48:24 - 00:17:11:23
Steve Staker
You know, as far as, corn on corn, we still had some erosion. But, you know, we were following soybean crop or something like. Yeah, on the rougher terrains, we just could not hold the soil. So that's kind of what we like. I say, originally started the process with and then of course, then all the other advantages kind of fell into place.
00:17:11:25 - 00:17:21:04
Todd Gleason
What are the things you've learned over the years as it relates to putting the cover crop in the ground, and terminating it that you think other farmers should know?
00:17:21:04 - 00:17:43:25
Steve Staker
Well, I know the probably the biggest thing that we've learned is about the time you get it figured out. You find out you don't have it figured out. In 2019, we had a really wet spring, and, we were planting green and everything, all the equipment just set for the month of May because of wet weather.
00:17:43:27 - 00:18:32:00
Steve Staker
When we got back in the field, the plant corn on rye was five foot tall. So, you know, we learned had a real sharp learning curve that year. It turned out okay. I think it it hurt our yields some. But I'm not you know looking back at the situation we probably didn't. Some of it was self-inflicted too. So but the biggest you know, as far as getting it in, we are not a fan of aerial applications just because of sporadic stands and stuff, which this year, due to labor, we aerial seated about 500 acres and I'm still not a fan of it.
00:18:32:06 - 00:18:57:25
Steve Staker
You know, it just didn't work. So we primarily drill or this year we're using, split row planter. We're still seeding. We generally seed until snow or frost keeps us out. And if it doesn't come up this winter, it'll grow next spring. Type philosophy. Just. We just got to get something out there, you know? That's my my and my son's gut feeling on this situation.
00:18:57:25 - 00:19:05:12
Steve Staker
You know, don't matter how you do it. There's a lot of different ways to implement them. They all work, but just kind of do something.
00:19:05:14 - 00:19:07:04
Todd Gleason
How do you use the split row planter?
00:19:07:09 - 00:19:17:13
Steve Staker
Oh, it's the set on 15 inch Kinsey split row. We put a, wheat plate or a cover crop plate in and this is our first year with that.
00:19:17:13 - 00:19:40:07
Steve Staker
Prior to this was just using, a grain drill and a 30ft sunflower drill. And, we decided we didn't like to drill for soybeans, so we decided to get rid of the drill and go to the 15 inch rows and then just do our rye and 15in also. I'll have a baby when I think about it.
00:19:40:10 - 00:19:53:24
Steve Staker
From what I see right now, it's fine. You know, we've got a good stand. Our rates were down, you know, 40 pounds or less on on a rate just to control the cost. I think it's going to do everything we want to do.
00:19:54:02 - 00:19:57:25
Todd Gleason
Do you use that with GPS and will you try to plant between the rows when you come back in?
00:19:58:00 - 00:20:25:28
Steve Staker
We are not using using it base, you know, with an RTK system. I think that would be ideal. But the tractor we drill, or plant with, does not have it. It's an awful big investment, you know, so we just opted not to go that route. But yes, I do agree that probably at least with, corn planting, I think that would be a very viable option.
00:20:26:00 - 00:20:36:03
Todd Gleason
Anything from the NRCs folks that you found of interest that you haven't put into place yet, or that you've thought a lot about since you took the training?
00:20:36:06 - 00:20:55:18
Steve Staker
Well, they're all pushing multi-species covered crops, which I do not disagree with, but due to our geographic location, the only way to do a multi species would be aerial seeding. And like I say, I am not a big fan of aerial seeding.
00:20:55:20 - 00:21:09:06
Steve Staker
So I that was probably their biggest push. You know, get everybody looking at having different species seeded out here. Like I say I don't disagree with it. They just not have not found a way to implement it.
00:21:09:08 - 00:21:11:12
Todd Gleason
Why did they want that to be the case, do you know?
00:21:11:15 - 00:21:22:19
Steve Staker
Well different different crops have different, biological impacts. So, you know, the multi-species may give you a little bit of a boost.
00:21:22:19 - 00:21:47:19
Steve Staker
You know, as far as the microbial actions or the, uptake of residual nutrients out there. So, you know, I like to say I don't disagree with it. I wish there was a way we could implement it, but it just, you know, geographically, we're not we're far enough north that, we tend to get that first frost or about 1st of October.
00:21:47:19 - 00:22:17:12
Steve Staker
So seeding turnips, radishes, anything like that, it's going to have to be done aerial. And or wheat, and in our particular area of wheat has not really been an option. There's a few guys raised some, it's just not a we just don't grow good wheat. Don't have a market or so. We've just kind of stuck, like I say, the cereal rye.
00:22:17:14 - 00:22:22:04
Steve Staker
And then we kind of branched out this year with the barley. So.
00:22:22:06 - 00:22:29:28
Todd Gleason
Do you have any advice for the conservation professionals about how they should reach out to farmers?
00:22:30:00 - 00:22:43:04
Steve Staker
From my viewpoint? So, you know, I'm not really a high pressure person. So, you know, as far as reaching out to these guys, you know, and really try and, put a lot of pressure on to do it.
00:22:43:04 - 00:23:13:24
Steve Staker
That's that's not the way I, I don't function good under those types of scenarios. I think people need encouragement, you know, and and they need the resources to make it happen. And I think farmer needs to know if there's a downside to it, which there can be. You know, we have, like I say, we have experienced at it. We didn't let it get to the point that it soured us on the cover crop program periodically.
00:23:13:25 - 00:23:42:23
Todd Gleason
So Steve Staker is a farmer from Mercer County, Illinois. He tells me that he puts his acres dedicated to conservation and almost all of them are, especially the experimental ones right out on the road where our farmers can see them and ask him questions. You've been listening to episode 48 of the Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy podcast, Talking Conservation with Farmers addressing and overcoming Barriers for adoption.
00:23:42:25 - 00:23:51:09
Todd Gleason
The program was produced in conjunction with Illinois Extension Watershed Outreach associate Rachel Curry. I'm Illinois Extension's Todd Gleason.