The Cardholder Trust Chain: Why Travel Rewards Need to Work Before, During, and After the Trip

Cardholders can spend years earning points, and redemption is the moment they learn whether that value holds up. Behind a single branded rewards experience sits a chain of partners handling booking, points, inventory, and support, yet cardholders only ever see the institution on their card.

Rachel Satow breaks down Switchfly's cardholder trust chain: promise, transaction, fulfillment, recovery, and closure, supported by governance. Ian Andersen explains why loyalty points behave like a currency, what the post-pandemic rise in rewards complaints revealed about devaluation, and how hidden caveats quietly erode trust. Together they share practical steps for financial institutions: give every communication an owner, connect support to the cardholder's full history, and document who owns each link before a cardholder finds the gap.

Connect with Switchfly
Website: https://www.switchfly.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/switchfly/
X: https://twitter.com/switchfly
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchflyOfficial

Chapters
[00:00] Why a loyalty promise has to hold up for decades
[03:20] Redemption as the cardholder's moment of truth
[04:49] The five stages of the cardholder trust chain
[05:48] When search and checkout don't match
[06:29] Fulfillment, recovery, and why your brand takes the blame
[09:01] Closure, governance, and owning the chain without running every step
[12:21] Loyalty points as a currency, and the cost of devaluation
[15:14] Hidden caveats and lounge access surprises
[17:56] Making a promise you can keep in a sea of sameness
[20:32] Outsourcing, clarity, and staying accountable for partners
[24:36] Keeping information and ownership with the cardholder
[28:01] Different paths for different moments, and the case for one record
[30:08] Giving teams the autonomy to solve problems
[32:05] Next steps: document the journey and plan for every link to fail

Links mentioned
Switchfly's cardholder trust chain guide: https://www.switchfly.com/lp/cardholder-trust-chain
Loyalty360 article on loyalty program devaluation: https://loyalty360.org/content-gallery/loyalty360-supplier-member-insights/industry-perspectives-rebalancing-value-how-brands-are-navigating-point-devaluation-without-losin
CFPB Credit Card Rewards Issue Spotlight (May 2024): https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_credit-card-rewards_issue-spotlight_2024-05.pdf

Creators and Guests

Host

Ian Andersen

Demand Gen & Marketing Operations Manager

Host

Rachel Satow

Senior Marketing Strategist

What is Travel Buddy with Switchfly?

See more at Switchfly.com

Welcome to Travel Buddy,
presented by Switchfly.

In this podcast, we talk about all
things travel, rewards, and loyalty.

Let's get to it.

Brandon Giella: Welcome back to
another episode of Travel Buddy,

and today we are gonna be talking
about the cardholder trust chain.

is a mouthful, and I'm gonna mess that up.

But, this is where we're talking about
rewards travel, and the trust that

an institution is building into the
cardholder, and the overall loyalty

program, and the implications of
potentially breaking that trust.

And I have a short story here
before I let Rachel and Ian jump in.

And the short story is, many years
ago, a good friend of mine was a

consultant, and built up over many,
many years a, a great loyalty status

in his program at a major institution.

He described to me one time, like one
of the major regrets of his life is

that he did not, diversify his loyalty
points usage because he felt that

that institution eventually debased
the value of his points, and they

kept moving the goalposts out further
so that he no longer really had that

status that was once promised to him.

And as a result of him telling that
story, it made an impact on me and

what card I chose or what program I
invested in, because I wanted to feel

like if I'm gonna be loyal to a program,
I want them to honor that promise

that they made to me, even if it's
a twenty or thirty-year-old promise.

I know that is very high stakes, but I,
I tell that story because it does make

a difference what we communicate to
cardholders within a loyalty program, even

if it's over a long, know, time horizon.

The challenge, though, is that
there are many steps in this

chain, many links in the chain
that Rachel will walk us through.

But to the cardholder's perspective,
they don't know all the, the,

the complexity and the layers
and the links in this chain.

They just know the institution,
where they have that loyalty program.

So, for example, I'm an American Express
Platinum cardholder, and I ha-- if

I have a problem booking, redeeming,
whatever it is, I don't know all the,

the technical complexity behind that.

If I have a problem with that, to me,
it's American Express's fault, and

I'm gonna call their customer support
number, and I'm gonna deal with them.

So far, they've been lovely, and
I've been a cardholder for many

years, and I plan to continue.

But, but it just goes to show when
I'm, you know, as a cardholder

looking at these loyalty programs, I
don't know all these, these chains,

the, the, the links in the chain.

I don't know the complexity, and the
promise that is made to me comes from my

card, my loyalty program, regardless of
all the other pieces that are in there.

And the stakes, again, are high,
and I know it's complex, and

it can take a, a long time to
build trust, to keep the trust.

it's very hard to do, but we
wanna talk about that today.

And so Rachel is gonna guide us through,
the, some of the work that she's been

doing on understanding that chain and
trying to help, loyalty leaders think

through it themselves to build that trust.

So Rachel, tell us a little bit
about what you've got going on

with this program and this topic
and why you're thinking about it.

Rachel Satow: Yeah, absolutely.

So to your point, cardholders can
spend months, years, in your friend's

case, decades earning points, and
redemption is when they find out

whether or not the value they were
promised works for the reward that

they want to … the trip they want to
take, the reward they want to redeem.

So a cardholder is really asking
the question, "Does the value my

organization, my card promised me
actually work when I need it most?"

And When it comes to the redemption
process, to your point, they

see one branded experience.

They don't know which com-
they probably don't know.

They might if they're a you or a me
who are working on the back end of this

all the time, but they see one branded
experience, and they don't know which

company manages the booking, manages
the points, where the inventory's coming

from, who's, who's handling support.

They don't know those things,
and they shouldn't have to figure

out when something goes wrong,
who's the finger at, you know?

to your point, they, the Amex,
they know the Visa, they know

who their cardholder provider is.

They don't know all of the things that
go into the back end, and they shouldn't.

So the cardholder trust chain, we
recently put out a guide about this.

it goes very in-depth into all
of the different stages that

are a part of this trust chain.

and it also talks about ways to
navigate the individual stages if

trust begins to falter at one of them.

so the, the core stages are the
promise, transaction, ful-fulfillment,

recovery, and closure, and then it--
the closure is supported by governance.

And it really does start with the
promise, and that is during search.

So the points value, the cash amount,
the total, you know, the total price,

inventory availability, cancellation,
works of their pro- like the search.

We're gonna use travel
specifically because that's what

Switchfly knows, knows best.

but all of these things can come into
play during this promise stage, and,

know, prices and inventory change all
the time for travel in particular.

It is super volatile.

It's, you know, you may be searching
something five minutes ago that is

different than what is available now.

and the important thing here is to just
make sure that, there is a system in

place to make sure that inventory in
particular, and pricing in particular,

is as up-to-date as it possibly can be.

Because the last thing you want to
do is when somebody is in the search

phase and they are seeing a specific
top-up value, and then they get to

the transaction phase, and they see at
checkout a different cash amount that

is going to be required than when they
were searching, that right there, the,

in between those two stages, is a spot
where Trust can just completely falter

if they no longer will trust that what
they were searching for is accurate.

so it really can just come down to, like,
something as simple as, like, a click

into checkout that makes the trust falter.

and then the other side of it
is really that fulfillment.

So I'm just giving brief, brief
definitions here, but, the

confirmation, and for travel, you
getting a confirmation email is not

the end of the trust experience.

It's not the end of the chain.

If a flight gets canceled, or they
miss it, or, something goes wrong, the,

the, the support team, a support team
needs to have that current information.

And to your point when you said,
you know, you were going to call up,

Amex, also needs to be ownership and
accountability because financial services

loyalty programs are built so modularly.

Like, you probably have a different
provider for k- you know, your

gift cards or your travel, etc.

You're not working with one
single supplier on those sides.

So if they don't know who to call,
like, during the fulfillment when,

especially when something goes wrong, that
obliterates trust in the organization,

not in the provider of the reward.

And I think that's a really big thing
that when we're looking at the trust

chain- Financial services need to
recognize that while internally you

know that it's XYZ's responsibility to
manage this inventory or to provide the

support, but your cardholders don't.

They don't know that, you know,
someone else is responsible

for your branded experience.

And when s- things start to fall apart,
especially in that high-tension time,

like they know that they booked it
through their rewards program and your

brand is the person that they are going
to reach out to, and your brand is the

person that they are going to blame.

and then obviously recovery
come, becomes a big part of that.

Recovery is, you know, when something
is going wrong, how can I ensure that

I know who owns what the next step is?

How can I ensure that even if I get a
support ticket number, like I know who I'm

talking to and I can put a name to someone
who is helping me figure out something.

So even if that fix takes time, ensuring
that there's a clear owner and someone

who is r- like a reliable point for your
travelers can give confidence in a time

when your trust is most likely to falter.

then obviously closure.

because a booking is completed or
canceled, there may still be that

like cash refund or, some sort of
points reversal that comes into play.

You have to reconcile that across all of
your, your suppliers and all of, all of

the different points in the chain, all of
the different modular points in the chain.

and the c- the cardholder just needs
to know like which steps are being

done and who they're being done by,
and which steps are, are in progress.

And communication obviously is
a huge aspect there to ensure

that trust is, is retained.

and then just telling like, you know,
just telling someone that their, their

case is resolved when their points
still haven't been added back on

Like, to them, that's not resolved.

That's like, "Wait a sec,
you can't close this out.

I still don't see my points back
into my, into my program," so.

and then obviously that closure is
supported heavily by governs- governance.

this really is kind of like the
overarching stage because it comes into

play in all of the other stages, but
it's, it's the ownership that the, and

the responsibility that the financial
organization takes on even having a

loyalty program or having rewards.

It's, they don't have to perform
every single step themselves.

You don't have to be the, you know, person
managing the supply and the inventory.

You don't have to be
the points bank owner.

You don't have to be all of the,
you know, the merchant record, etc.

But you do need to know who handles
what and who to go to when the chain

starts to falter, and be able to set
rules and regulations for your own

program and expectations on how those
individuals and those different, you know,

partners that you have your trust chain.

so it's, it's so far beyond, you
know, are running, inventory's

there, so on and so forth.

It's how are problems being solved,
how are they being caught before

cardholders even experience them, and
then how are, you know, the different

organizations working together.

And with that, that is, like, the longest
overview that I possibly could have given.

But, obviously this guide, I, I spent a
lot of time on that guide, so I, this, I'm

living and breathing this at this point

Brandon Giella: No, I love it.

I love it.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna harken
back to y-your CEO, Noel Outlaw,

saying, "This stuff is complex.

This is hard."

You know

building your own program and, and,
you know, stitching all the vendors

together, all the suppliers, doing the
training, the currencies, you know.

Like, this is, this is really hard.

so yeah.

So, there are a lot of
moving parts to this.

if you're, you're building out, you
know, a program or you're trying to,

you know, create this, this, the vendor
network and all that, but each of those

points from the cardholder's perspective,
this is I think what you're trying to

get across, like really clearly is,
from the cardholder's perspective,

they have no idea what is going on
behind the scenes with all this stuff.

They have one person, one point of
contact, one experience, and it is up

to the loyalty program, the financial
institution to make all of those

pieces work seamlessly together so
that they have a delightful experience.

Easier said than done, but that's the goal

Ian Andersen: I think something
that, companies don't necessarily

think about, although I'm sure
major financial institutions do.

but, but a lot of companies, I,
I don't always know how much they

consider they are essentially
creating a new currency, right?

it's the same as the dollar or the
peso or the euro or, or whatever.

obviously there are different
regulations for it, but, like, you're

creating something that has a specific
value that is transactionable for,

other goods and services, right?

and because of that, it's, it's
subject to all the real world rules and

immutable laws that other currencies are.

And, After the pandemic, I think a lot
of companies got a really sharp lesson

in economics, by, how volatile, you know,
the economy was in general worldwide.

that, that affects your,
your rewards plan, right?

It affects those, those points values.

It, it affects all those things.

And, and depending on how that's portrayed
to customers, you know, if they're … If

you've been setting them up with certain
expectations for, you know, however long,

and then something happens and your, your
loyalty points are, are devalued, that's

gonna cause a lot of friction, right?

The, the, Consumer Protection Bureau,
Financial Protection Bureau saw,

like, between 12 and 1500% increases
in complaints over rewards programs,

post-pandemic year, year over year.

they, there were a lot of people
caught off guard, thinking, you know,

"Yes, the dollar is not doing great.

Inflation's going a little wild.

you know, maybe I can offset some of
that by using some of my stored up

points," not necessarily knowing that
those have also been devalued, you know?

it's, it's incumbent upon, the,
the program that the … I mean,

exactly what, what you two are both
saying as far as who's the owner.

You know, it doesn't necessarily matter
whose, quote-unquote, fault it is or,

or what's going on behind the scenes.

If you're the owner and you're the face,
the, the customer's, gonna come to you.

and it's incumbent upon those, those
programs to understand what's going

on, to understand the customer's
expectations and why they may or

may not have been met, and, to be
able to, to communicate effectively.

you know, at the end of the
day, it all comes down to, to

customer communication, right?

So

Brandon Giella: Yeah, I think a lot of,
programs are, are currently going through

that now with lounge access, which is
a topic of discussion, amongst, you

know, avid travelers of premium cards.

Not saying that I'm in that discussion,
but your institution will be mentioned

on Reddit if you decide at one point to,
say that you can no longer bring guests

into your lounge because you're debasing
the value of that premium cardholder

Ian Andersen: Yeah.

Brandon Giella: things like that.

Even that's a simple thing, but it
shows up in the real world and has

Ian Andersen: And and

Brandon Giella: as,

Ian Andersen: that,

Brandon Giella: of

Ian Andersen: those like, one sure way
to, to damage trust are those little,

like, hidden caveats, you know, that, are
sort of buried in fine print at times.

Like, I won't mention the company, but a
major airline that, I had built up enough

to, to get sort of lounge access stuff.

I didn't know you had to have a ticket.

I, I knew you had to have a ticket on that
airline for that day, but, I had flown on

them in the morning, had a little layover,
and was flying a different airline that

afternoon, and they said that didn't
count, that, that my afternoon flight

had to have been on, on that airline.

And I was, I was pissed.

I was like, "It doesn't
actually say that."

Like,

Brandon Giella: Yep.

Ian Andersen: you

know, it says you need to
have a ticket that day, right?

And, yeah, so just little stuff like that

Brandon Giella: yeah, I, I went to a
major airline where I had the ticket

to that airline, and on my app it
said I had access to this lounge.

And it was like, "Access granted.

You can go between these hours," whatever.

I got to the thing and they're like,
"Oh, you're not a certain member

of this particular very narrow
exclusive thing for this lounge."

Even though the brand, you know,
the, the airline's logo was above

the, the, the, the l- the th- the
door, they wouldn't let me in.

And I'm like, "No, no, no,
I've got access on my app.

I've got the ticket to the airline.

Like, I'm-- I should be good to go."

And they're like, "No, you don't have
this particular, access or whatever."

And I was like, "Okay.

Ian Andersen: like, that's

like, you know, getting McDonald's
points or something in Buffalo and then

going to Tampa and them saying, "No,
you can't use your McDonald's points

here at the Tampa locate," right?

Like that, that kind of stuff
corporate-wide, you build up those

expectations, and if you don't honor
it or if you're not explicit about how

and when those things can be honored,

Brandon Giella: Yeah

Ian Andersen: you know, w- there's
no faster way to, to destroy

trust with, with your customers

Brandon Giella: And as marketers,
we have to know nobody's gonna

read those terms and conditions.

Make it,

Ian Andersen: Okay.

Brandon Giella: it really clear, you know?

Ian Andersen: Yeah

Rachel Satow: yeah, i-i think the, the
way to say it is, like, just make sure

that you're making a promise that you
can keep, because no one is going to be

faster to call you out on something that
isn't clear than someone who is trying

to utilize your program, and some that-
someone that had trust in your program.

so, like, to Ian's point, communication
is vital, one, but also clarity and

being, like, extremely explicit,
because, like, they're, they are

making a financial decision, you know?

Like, to, to Ian's point, you are
essentially creating another type of

currency for them, and those cardholders,
like, they're making a financial decision

when they're r- redeeming through you.

So, if things are not clear or things
change in the entire redemption process,

and there isn't a, an explicit reason
why, that can just destroy your,

destroy the trust that they have in you.

And one of the bigger problems is
financial services loyalty programs

are, we, we use the phrase "the
sea of sameness," quite frequently.

They're in, like, to your point, your
friend's story is the reason you went with

a different, a, a different, organization.

Like, there's r- it's really hard to
cultivate trust, in these, in these

instances and with these organizations,
and, the trust chain c- when it falters,

it gives them every reason to just jump
ship to somewhere else and try better,

try something better, or at least in
the hopes that something is better.

but also, Ian, you were talking
about the example of devaluation.

Loyalty360 did an article a couple
of months ago on, on devaluation,

and they also reiterated across
the board, like, communication

at every single stage is vital.

I think to circle it back and to,
to harken back to the point of the

trust chain is you need to know who is
communicating with the cardholder and

who is the responsible party, because not
always going to be the, the, the provider.

It is not always going to be
your organization that owns it.

In some cases, it might be, but you
might not be doing all of the little

things, so you need to know who is
communicating with your cardholder, at

which stage in their entire redemption
process and in the entire trust chain,

and how they are communicating things.

Because if someone else's version of
clarity is different than your version

of clarity or even the cardholder's
version of clarity, that is another spot

where trust can just, just falter, so.

Ian Andersen: Yeah, and I don't, I don't

The, this came up, I feel, a lot in
the kinda early, mid-2000-ish range

of, especially when customer service,
functions were starting to really heavily

be farmed out to, to other countries,
to, to groups in other countries, right?

That there was, at times language
barriers, at times kind of cultural

difference issues that came up, that,
you know, it, it really damaged a lot

of people's perception of those brands.

and that's not to say, as Rachel's
repeated a few times, that's not to say

you can't separate out some of those
functions, as long as it, it doesn't

feel disjointed to the customer, as
long as it doesn't, as long as you

are aware of what's going on in that.

You know, if, if you farm your customer
service out to, to somewhere in, you

know, Bangladesh or, or something,
like, you should have somebody there

who's, like, familiar with their
operations and how they, how they deal

with things and, and how they respond
to the, to your customers, right?

'Cause they could be saying literally
anything and, and at the end of the day,

you're the one holding the bag for any
promises or any, you know, bad negative

interactions or, or anything like that.

So, I think, you know, kinda that,
that the ability for us to have instant

communications across the world, it
helped globalize a lot of these issues

that, we hadn't really seen before.

And, you know, that it's just,
it's all part of building

that, that, customer's trust.

And as Rachel, I'm sure, will
repeat many, many times throughout

the course of this, it is so hard
to build and so easy to break.

You know, especially when, like
you say, what is one bank card

versus another bank card, like,
for travel rewards or whatever?

I mean, yeah, there's gonna be some
minor differences on the margins, but

by and large, you know, it's, you're
selling the same product and same

rates, same, you know, everything, so.

So how can you differ-
differentiate yourself?

One, by having positive, you know,
customer loyalty program interactions

throughout, throughout the process, right?

Brandon Giella: Yeah, a-and
it's more than customer service.

You know, I mean, I, you know,
it's kind of like that, that old

adage of it takes 30 years to build
trust and 30 seconds to lose it.

You know, it's, it, it is very much that.

But the, the real challenge is that it's
not just customer service, it's finance,

setting good deal terms up front that are
clear and understandable and profitable.

And then it's marketing to
communicate those things.

It's engineering to build the
plumbing to make that work.

It's all the vendors and supplier networks
that go into that and all their plumbing.

And then there's training and rollout
and promotion and then governance.

I mean, it's a huge effort
to do this very well.

so, Rachel, I'm kind of curious, you know,
maybe as we kind of, head toward a close,

what, what are some maybe takeaways or
things to be thinking about as a leader

that really is stitching these things
together and understands, y-you know,

wanting to delight the customer and
create loyalty and trust in that customer,

knowing that customers don't care what
the problem is or what really happened.

That doesn't help them.

They just want to be-- They just
want to have a good experience.

They want their issue resolved, and
they want to go on with their day

because they got other things to do.

but by re-- And things are gonna break.

Like, there's gonna,
they're gonna have an issue.

I, I have issues all the time traveling.

but you can still rupture and
repair, is what therapists

talk about with relationships.

You know?

Like, there will be that rupture,
but how do you repair it?

How do you close that loop?

And you have to do that across many
departments, many vendors, many, you know,

teams have to work together really well.

What do you, what do you do?

Rachel Satow: Yeah.

I mean Travel is inherently sticky in
that, you are going to be-- you're--

something's going to go wrong.

It's, I, you know, whether it's your gate
gets changed last minute or, you know, a

redemption doesn't c- like get de-deducted
from, from your points value i-in the

right way or, you know, your hotel
doesn't have your booking, especially

when you're dealing with, with packaging.

because packaging is interesting in
that you have multiple touch points and

multiple areas of the journey that you are
accounting for, and you're sending it out

to the one, different suppliers, but also
like the different endpoints, even though

the, the cardholder sees one booking and
they see one thing that came through.

so my biggest, like the biggest thing
is when you're thinking about this trust

chain, just ensuring that information and
ownership is with the cardholder, not in

the different stages and the different,
suppliers at each of those stages.

So, you know, a, a change can come through
to different parties at different times.

And like an airline could, you know,
update the flight before the portal gets

updated, and the servicing agent may be
able to see the booking and they-- but

they have limited visibility into the
points used for it, so on and so forth.

Like there's a, a multitude of things
that can happen, and a ch- like a

small change or a small tweak doesn't
necessarily catch up to all of the

different pieces at the same time.

And those, those differences super
frustrating for a cardholder because

receiving conflicting information.

They're seeing something that
updated first, and then this other

person over here that they're
actually having to deal with doesn't

see that same, that same change.

so one, that communication needs an owner.

If schedules change, you know,
who is responsible for updating

the itiner-the itinerary?

Who's responsible for, you know,
communicating that to the cardholder?

Who checks that the message arrived?

So on and so forth.

and then the other side of it is like
support needs that relevant history, so

they need to be able to have appropriate
and, you know, the person helping

should be able to see the full funnel
and like should be able to see the

booking, the payment, the points, etc.

because if they can't, then they're
trying to fix a problem without all of

the background on what happened, and the
cardholder should not have to reiterate

or retell a story a bajillion times,
because that alone creates such…

Like they shouldn't have to do that.

It's not their responsibility.

So it's, it's important that from an
overarching infrastructure standpoint,

no matter who is handling each of the
little pieces, you keep e- informa-

information w-with the cardholder in
the moment that they are in, not in the

way your infrastructure can send things.

Like, you need to be thinking about,
the cardholder is going to experience

dealing with a service agent prior
to potentially checking their points

balance, so perhaps we prioritize a
change or, whatever else is needed going

to that service agent prior to it…

You know, you, you just need
to work out the, the kinks

in the funnel from that side.

And

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Rachel Satow: does depend on where the
traveler is, because, you know, an issue

three months before departure and an
issue during, well, like, when they're

traveling, they need different paths,
and they need different response paths.

One may be able to have some, some of
that, that time, whereas someone else,

you know, who's actively traveling
and is experiencing a current booking

issue, they, they need some sort
of way to, reconcile those things.

and self-servicing can handle
some of it, but, really I'm sure

all of us have dealt with this.

Like, when it comes to time-sensitive
things, I'm picking up the phone.

That's the

Brandon Giella: Yeah, 100%.

Rachel Satow: try to figure out the,
figure this out and figure out the,

like, where I'm supposed to go, etc.

I'm go- I'm, yep, I'm going to
either, either pick up the phone

or, go through the chatbot, etc.

So it's really important that the
information moves with where the

cardholder is and the way that
their behaviors reflect, not, the

easiest way to push information
to your different connectors.

I, I hope that answers your question.

Brandon Giella: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I, I love the point about it
basically like data transparency.

Between all the different people that
are involved, can you tie all the, the

transactions, if you will, the customer
service notes, everything to one record,

like an electronic medical record?

Can I pull up that patient, that
cardholder, and see all their

doctor's visits and their medication
and their history and their, all

that information all in one place?

'Cause yeah, I had that experience two
weeks ago where I had to explain my

story to four different people over
the case, over the span of a month.

Some via email, I had to fill out a form,
you know, I called, I tried the chatbot.

I always try the chatbot.

It just never can-- stuff, I guess,
is more complicated than a chatbot

can ever figure out, but you know, I,
it, that rarely ever works for now.

Yeah, one day I'm gonna just talk to
Siri, and Siri's just gonna handle it.

but yeah, I had, I had to like go through
the rigmarole, and it really annoyed me.

And I'm like trying to do…

I, I, I understand this
stuff is complicated.

Like I, I get it.

I, I, I get it.

But, still, it's still very frustrating.

So yeah, it's,

Ian Andersen: especially with large
financial service organizations, right?

Like I, I have, a bank that I, I
like and have used for most of my

adult life that handles my checking,
savings, some insurance, some

investing, like, you know, and it…

And sometimes one, an issue can be
sort of in the middle of those, right?

And,

Brandon Giella: Yeah

Ian Andersen: having to jump
between customer service

sections is always a giant pain.

Yeah, and the way, I think, I think by and
large, people are, are pretty reasonable

in that, you know, mistakes happen, there
are issues, and, and not even mistakes.

Sometimes, you know, just friction
occurs and, and problems arise.

Like, how, how you deal with that as an
or- organization culturally, I think,

creates a, a very big difference.

if you give your, whether it's customer
service or operations or marketing

or whatever, you know, if you give
your people some autonomy to make

decisions to solve problems themselves,
that honestly usually goes a long

ways to, to satisfying customers.

and, you know, and yeah, you might be
out a little money here and there, but

by and large, those repeated positive
interactions are, are invaluable, right,

to, to reputation of an organization.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

And of course, m- most people do
wanna resolve it themselves 'cause

they can do it anytime they want.

They don't have

Rachel Satow: Yeah

Brandon Giella: to Monday, you

Ian Andersen: Exactly

Brandon Giella: Monday to Friday,
9:00 to 5:00 when they're working

and got other things going on,
picking up the kids or whatever.

Yeah, I'd rather do it
online, but I can't.

and this is where, of course,
Adam Smith's, specialization

argument comes to die.

But eventually, you know, you
just need to call somebody and

get somebody to sort it out for

Ian Andersen: Yep

Brandon Giella: you know?

Anyway

Rachel Satow: Yeah.

And, and, you know, I, I know I mentioned
this before, but it- we're not saying

it's the responsibility of the financial
institution or organization to, to manage

all of the nitty-gritty points, you know?

We're not saying that because
the trust is going to affect your

brand value, you need to, to be
micromanaging all of these things.

It's

really your role to govern the
trust chain and not every single

link in that chain, right?

So, I think that's

if I were to say what is a next step
for financial institutions, like

try to document the current process
and try to document who owns what.

And if you don't have an answer
to something, that's where your

cardholders are going to feel it.

y- it's not your responsibility
to build every capability.

It's not your responsibility
to own everything internally.

But just know that it is your
responsibility to be able to document and

to be able to create an operating model
that showcases where responsibili- re-

responsibilities lay and where things
can fall through the cracks in the chain.

So that is your responsibility, for sure

Brandon Giella: a, the maybe, you
know, great exercise is just put

it, put a flowchart together of the
customer journey where you're going

through the redemption process or going
through the customer service process.

And I know we're kind of griping about
customer service, but it's because as

a cardholder, that's what I experience
really is, when something goes wrong.

I'm…

That's kind of h- my, my doorway
into this, if not at the initial

booking redemption process.

But,

Rachel Satow: Yeah.

Brandon Giella: yeah, I, I think
that's a, that's a great note, yeah

Rachel Satow: Yeah, document the,
the current customer journey.

And don't, I wouldn't do it just
based on your interpretation of

what the customer journey is.

Brandon Giella: Yeah

Ian Andersen: Mmhmm

Rachel Satow: to discover whether
or not there are things you

don't know about, because that's

Ian Andersen: Right

Rachel Satow: something that could

Brandon Giella: That's right

Rachel Satow: you are going through the
redemption process yourself for, and,

and, you know, doing everything the way
a cardholder would, then you're n- there

are potentially things in the trust
chain that you don't even know about that

having conversations with your current
cardholders could really, could really

give you insight into it as you build
out that customer journey to document it

Ian Andersen: Yeah.

Do not plan on best case scenarios, right?

Brandon Giella: Yes.

Ian Andersen: know

Brandon Giella: Plan, plan

on each one of these links in the
trust chain to fail at one point

or another for whatever godforsaken
reason, 'cause it's gonna happen.

yeah, no, I, I think that's
a, that's a brilliant note.

Well, thank you guys so much.

Rachel, I know you're, you're just kinda
spearheading this, this project, this

topic, and, and I, I love that you guys
are creating these kinda assets for

financial institutions because it is
so important for them to be able to see

the full picture and how this relates
to the end cardholder's perspective.

So thank you for putting these
resources together, and we will

see you on the next episode

Rachel Satow: Thanks, Brandon

Ian Andersen: See ya.