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Tyson Popplestone is a Comedian from Melbourne Australia. Join him for a brand new interview each week.
Carl Honoré (00:00.174)
Absolutely must get this delivery.
Tyson (00:03.359)
It's essential and can't come back. No, awesome. I've hit record there. I was laughing actually. was watching your Ted talk from 2005 the other day and I couldn't help but find it slightly strange that 2005 were speaking about the speed of life and how ramped up everything was and how busy we all are.
And I thought, no, that was true. was 18 then and year 12 felt relatively busy, but it wasn't until two years later that I got my hand on the first iPhone. I feel since 2007 to 2024, the conversation seems to go since the iPhone comes in, has come in, it's been an incredibly busy time. But I think the fact that you had such a popular Ted talk two years prior to that suggests that it was perhaps an issue, not only a couple of years before that, but I'm guessing from what I've heard like way, way before
Carl Honoré (00:55.566)
Yeah. I mean, we've been on an upward curve of acceleration for a very long time now. And the whole cult of speed that we find ourselves marinating in here today, and what are we now, 2024, has really deep roots. I mean, it goes back, if you want to parse it and pull it apart, get down to its brass tacks, it's really about our unhealthy relationship with time. So as soon as man began measuring time with clocks, we suddenly had deadlines. And as soon as you have a deadline,
you have hurry, right? You've got something to rush for. weirdly, I this is one of the things that I found most extraordinary in the research was that you can go back as far as, know, ancient Rome and people are complaining about sundials dicing up their days into chunks that force them to rush from one activity or one task to the next, which to us seems preposterous today, but it's actually the same phenomenon, right? But if you come forward now a couple thousand years, of course, we've added technology, we've added a kind
consumerist culture, a shop all the time. All these other pressures have come into play. And then more recently, you put your finger on it very accurately at the start there with the explosion of social media. And then suddenly we're all wandering around with a weapon of mass distraction in our pockets. We've been doing that now for a good 15 years.
Tyson (02:10.106)
Yeah, I guess it's no surprise when you think about the fact that the one thing we did have in common with even the ancient Romans was we all were on limited lifespan. So at the outset, we know that there's an end incoming, like there's a, there's a limit to how much we can fit in. And no matter how effective or how organized or how productive we are, we realized that we're probably going to fall well and truly short of the amount that we would like to achieve with our life. But yet certainly seems that modern technology, it's the blessing in the curse
you know, the, the, the productivity tools in the iPhone is that, you can get much more done, but I was, I had a conversation with a bloke the other day and we were saying that it seems that, the more productive we get, the more time we have for more productivity. But that thing that we constantly long for, perhaps a little bit of downtime seems to constantly elude
Carl Honoré (03:01.196)
Yeah, I think that these tools that we carry around with us are toys as well, right? The phones and so on are incredible, right? I'm not a Luddite. I love them. I have an iPhone and a Mac, but these are great. I couldn't live without them. The trouble is that they often create the illusion of productivity, right? So we have the sense that we're getting a lot done, but what we're very often doing is just ticking boxes, right? We're skimming the surface of things. We're multitasking. We're doing four things at the same time, which very
means doing four things not very well. So we've ended up, because we've got so fast now, because the virus of hurry has infected every corner of our lives, and every moment of the day is a race against the clock, we've put quantity before quality. So we've reversed the equation. So I think that explains why we have this sense that we're surrounded by unimaginable material wealth. We're surrounded by incredible technology and goodies that even our grandparents would have found.
science fiction in their childhood. And yet we feel A, like there's never enough time and B, like we're alone, we're disconnected from people and we're not really that happy. This is kind of a weird modern paradox that we have all the tools to live these incredibly full, beautiful, luminous lives. And yet many of us are, feel like we're trapped in a box, right? Just constantly rushing on a hamster wheel that never ever slows down and never, never stops.
You talked about mortality there, think, getting quite deep here early on. I think that mortality actually can be a double -edged sword, right? In a lot of ways, it can be a bonus, right? can be a boost. It can help us focus on the fact that, we do have a limited amount of time. So the question then is, how do I make the most of my time? And the trouble with modern culture is it tells you there's one way to make the most of your time, and that is to speed up, to do more and more with less and less time.
Tyson (04:33.691)
This
Carl Honoré (04:58.158)
But that puts you in the quantity box rather than the quantity one. And this whole slow revolution that I've been working with now for coming on 20 years is about turning that around, flipping the script and saying, no, the best way to make the most of your time is not to speed up, it's to slow down, to do fewer things, but to do those things well, to give each moment the time and attention it deserves so that it lights up and becomes something of depth, texture, meaning, purpose.
Joy, productivity, right? All those things wrapped together into a beautiful bow. But we're knocking up against a culture that constantly bombards us with the idea that slower is worse, right? That slow is a dirty word in our culture. It's a four -letter word. It's a byword for stupid, lazy, boring, unhappy, unproductive. You you slow down your roadkill, right? So those of us on the slow side are fighting constantly against this myth that faster is always better, because it ain't,
You know, like sometimes it is. I'm not an extremist of slowness. I love speed. Faster is often better. We all know that, right? But not always, right? And that's the key that unlocks this slow revolution with a capital S, slow. It's not about doing things as fast as possible. It's about doing them as well as possible. So there are times to speed up. There are times to slow things down. about finding what musicians call the tempo giusto, the right tempo for each piece of music. So sometimes
You've got to put the pedal to the metal, right? But other times you've got to ease off. It's like lean in, but sometimes lean back, right? On, off, slow. It's about finding that music and magic that unfold when you hit the right speed, you find the right tempo, the right cadence. And that's for everything from parenting to the workplace, to making love to your partner, to exercise, to how you eat. It just filters through every single thing you do. If you arrive at each moment thinking, not how can I get through this as fast as possible?
but rather how can I do this as well as possible? Super, super simple idea, but one that is a total game changer, because it just completely reframes every single thing you do and puts you on a path to living a life worthy of the name.
Tyson (06:58.502)
Peace out.
Tyson (07:04.314)
Yeah. Isn't that true? I mean, I'm glad my wife's here not to confirm it, but I do a lot of those things much too quickly and it strips away quality. That's for sure. I often I laugh because I see myself, whether it's temperament or whether it's habit, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Maybe a combination of both, but I think the reason I'm so interested in what you speak about is because naturally I seem to tend towards. Hurry or speed or rush or whatever you want to call it. And as a result,
a lot of what can be produced if I'm not conscious of what I'm doing can lack quality. I've always admired certain creatives, especially I've got a couple of photographer friends and a couple of artists friends who paint and draw and the pace that they operate, at least on an outward level, they often say they don't feel as relaxed as they often look, but the pace that they operate through the work that they produce always stands out to me. There's very few loose ends. seems as though,
the final product is a really good catalyst for the amount of work and time they've taken to produce it. But in saying that, even though I'm aware of it, it's amazing how not just myself, but so many people who are on this hamster wheel of speed and hurry and more, recognise deep down that there is a real quality to slowing things down for the exact reason that you just said. But I don't know, I'm sure you've been asked this question plenty of times before, but what do you think that is? Why is it you think
so many of us fall into the excitement of hurry potentially and lose quality as a result.
Carl Honoré (08:36.162)
Well, I think there are lots of reasons. One, we touched on it earlier, the cultural narrative, right? The story being told to us all the time is, know, lunch is for wimps, the early bird catches the worm, right? You know, it's all about speed carries the day. So there's the cultural pressure to go fast. I think there's also a chemical, almost biological dimension to all of this that the adrenaline rush you get from doing several things at once, being very fast, you
all that vortex of hurry and rushing and speed and is addictive, right? It's like a head rush that we find really hard to let go of. And in fact, they've shown in recent research that if you take away a smartphone from a person and then you measure all their vital signs, they have a similar reaction to the reaction that a heroin addict has when you take away their fix, right? Like we
chemically, physically addicted now to grabbing that phone every 50 seconds and looking. Even if we are pretty sure nothing's there, nothing's changed, we just can't stop, right? So we're on this, almost in this kind of biochemical feedback loop. I think if you go a little deeper, and this is something many of us never really confront until sometimes it's a little bit too late, is that for a lot of us, I think being very fast and very busy and very distracted is a form of denial. It's a way of running away from
deeper problems. It's a way to escape ourselves, right? Because what are you doing when you fill your head with distraction? You're sweating the small stuff. And when you sweat the small stuff, you're turning away from the big stuff, the big questions like, who am I? What is my purpose here? Am I living the right life for me? It's much easier just to fret and freak out over the little things like, where are my keys? I have an 11 a .m., right? That's less scary than thinking maybe
I've been living on autopilot for the last five years. That's the kind of big question you need to grapple with to design a life that you're gonna be, that's gonna feed you and you're gonna be proud of on your deathbed. But it's scary to do in the now. It's easier just to say, you know what, I'll kick that downfield and let's see what's happening on Instagram, you know, and do a bit of doom scrolling to take our minds off it. So I think this is one of the things that people find most frightening.
Tyson (10:51.247)
I sure.
Carl Honoré (10:58.092)
and daunting and difficult to get grips with when it comes to slowing down is that what very often it boils down to is a reacquaintance with yourself, right? It's a meeting with yourself that you've been putting off for a very long time. And that's scary, but that's how you make a life worthy of the name, right? Is having those big conversations with yourself.
Tyson (11:20.28)
Yeah, I used to listen to a preacher and you'd often say that busyness has just turned into a form of laziness that stops us focusing on what's truly important. And that always just rang true with me that quote. I thought, I fall into the, excitement, the dopamine hit the rush of hurry, what you're saying stands out as even truer. Stephen Covey in his seven habits are highly effective people had a great quote where we had a great chapter, think, dedicated to the idea of
have writing at your own eulogy. And for those people who lack clarity on what it is they would like to actually focus their limited time on, write the eulogy and remember how it is you'd like to be remembered from the people that you love. And very often the other side of that eulogy or throughout that process, you recognize what truly is most important. But I mean, like even when you established that, which I did a few years ago and I sort of, I mean, I know it and I go away from it. It's sort of like an anchor I drift off. come back.
Carl Honoré (11:53.047)
in the next class.
Carl Honoré (12:17.698)
Mm -hmm.
Tyson (12:20.208)
But it doesn't necessarily always help with that hurry throughout the day. mean, I'm on Instagram, I'm on YouTube and stats are very exciting. Speaking about that, that feedback loop that we buy into. mean, there's nothing more exciting than seeing a video or a post or something take off and that constant checking of where are we at now on the algorithm? it's something that if I'm not careful, I'll fall into. I've recently started getting back into this idea of Sabbath. Okay. An idea of one day off a week.
which obviously has been a really important part of, especially the Jewish tradition for a long time. But I noticed throughout that day, I just put my phone and computer away and I'm amazed at just that twitchy nature of my mind that seems to have been programmed throughout the week. But by the end of Saturday afternoon, which is the day I do it, if I've done it well, I'll notice there's a calmness. There's almost like, you don't need it as much as you think you do. And strange how many of us know that, but don't live accordingly.
Carl Honoré (13:06.52)
Yeah.
Carl Honoré (13:17.204)
still struggle. Yeah, well, that's the human condition, isn't it? Is to know the truth, but struggle to embrace it, right? Or put it into practice. That's across the board. It's the same with our diet, right? I mean, we know what puts on weight, we know what doesn't, but there we are snacking on the wrong stuff in the middle of the day. It's just these things are hard to get our heads round and
to change, hard is not the same as impossible, right? And I do think there are levers we can pull. I Sabbath is a really good idea. And if someone finds the idea of a whole day Sabbath a little bit frightening, start small with a mini Sabbath. Like say, during the day, every weekday you're gonna have one hour of just, there is no phone, there is no screen anywhere, and then go up to two hours or something and just play around and find the right recipe that allows you to free yourself from that constant nagging, gnawing.
worry about what the algorithm's doing or what your numbers look like or what's happening on the outside world and go inside. Because you need to go inside sometimes in order to bring the best you outside, right? And always to remember as well as something that came to my mind as you were talking about Stephen Covey and the pastor is that very often when we're going very fast and distracting ourselves, it's not that you're running to something, you're running away. And again, that's
That's a scary thing to get to grips with, but it's essential, right? A life, the examined life as Socrates talked about, that's really what life is. And you have to slow down to do it. I love that you mentioned your friends, the artists, because that's one of the main benefits or big benefits that people notice almost instantly when they slow down is that the creative juices begin to flow because there is and always has been an intimate, deep, powerful bond between creativity and slowness. It's a bond that the greatest thinkers in the arts
science and business have always understood that you need, and we know this in brain science, right? That when human beings shift into a richer, relaxed, slow, mellow mode, the brain shifts into this nuance, more creative mode of thought, and psychologists call it slow thinking, right? So the clue is in the title. And in fact, let me ask you this. put a question into now that I ask. I ask this question anytime I do a public event.
Carl Honoré (15:36.078)
And the same thing always happens. And the question is this, know, when do your best ideas usually come to you? And, know, I've put that question to doctors in Sydney, lawyers in New York, bankers in London, and no one anywhere in the world has ever said, my best ideas come to me when I'm juggling 45 emails or racing to meet a deadline with the boss or a client breathing down my neck. Number one answer you get around the world, maybe this has probably come to some of your listeners right now is in the shower.
Yeah. Or walking the dog or swinging in a hammock on vacation. They come in those slow moments. And that's just one reminder of one of the joys and benefits and the power of slowing down is that you fire up those creative engines, which is so important at work, but also in our lives in general, right? It's just one of the things, especially with the AI revolution exploding all around us, we got to double down on what humans do best. And what humans do best is the slow stuff, listening, empathy.
feeling, communication, creativity, right? That's where we're going to thrive as human beings in an AI dominated or an AI world where AI is calling a lot of the shots. And all of that stuff comes from slowing down. You can't listen unless you slow down. You can't communicate unless you slow down. You can't feel and empathize if you're rushing all the time. You can't create if you're racing through every moment like a dash to the finish line. You need to slow down to do all this
It's staring us in the face, right? It's all there for
Tyson (17:07.468)
It really is. And even little hints, like as you move away from things like records and you go to tapes and CDs and now to Spotify, all of a sudden people get nostalgic about the idea of records and how beautiful they are and how much it sounds better and how relaxing it is. And I mean, the same is now true with Audible, which I mean, I'm guilty of using on a regular basis. And I'm sure I've got through a number of books that I wouldn't have otherwise got through, but all of a sudden now with Audible, not even really being
that old in the context of what we're speaking about. A book all of a sudden seems to be a romantic notion in so many times. It's a symbol of slowing down, a symbol of relaxation. And there's so many ways that this idea can be expressed, hey, because it's not just, I know we're focused mostly on the culture of hurry, in particular with that of the work that we do, but I mean, this applies to material possessions and it applies to travel and it applies
It's almost just like that spirit that infiltrates every element of our life. And with that said, I sort of just post that out there because I think one thing which is overwhelming when it comes to trying to take steps towards slowness is you might make practical steps in one particular area of your life, say work or the way that you structure your work life. But then all of a sudden you realize you've got two weeks of annual leave and you want to go to 14 places and it can creep back into the times where you've scheduled for relaxation.
Like are there any real practical steps that people can take when they're trying to clarify, all right, like I want to slow down. Where do I start and how do I make decisions around what that looks
Carl Honoré (18:45.23)
Yeah, I mean, there's, I've just published a book actually called Slower, 50 tips to slowing down in a fast world. So yes, there are lots of levers we can all pull on this. Where do we start? I mean, just as a general one I would throw out right now is, because I've done some of this myself recently, is just being in nature, like just being in green space. We know that being in green spaces has a calming, tranquilizing effect on human bodies and reduces feelings of stress and so on. But there's something about being
spending time in nature, and that could be a long hike in the woods, or could just be 20 minutes in the park, is that it kind of reframes things a little bit. mean, suddenly, I think a lot of our petty worries start to seem a little bit pointless and small. And there's something just very slowing and relaxing about being in nature. So I would always say to people, if you're feeling all hyped up and you're not sure how to just get off that hamster wheel, a good starting point is to step out of your office, get out of your house, and just take your shoes off and make
Like put them in the grass, wiggle your toes in the grass, put your foot in a stream, lean up against a tree, just get in touch with nature and that can have an instant kind of, know, effective bringing on a kind of serenity, right? A kind of slowness. But actually sort of harder, you know, nuts and bolts stuff. I mean, one thing I suggest to people is always to do less, right? That's a crucial starting point for slowing down is that we're all
and chronically trying to do way too many things. So prioritize, delegate, look at what you're doing, take your calendar and look what you've got laid out for the next week each day. And for each day, put everything in a list of what's most important to least important and then cut the least important thing. Just cut it, right? Which I know a lot of people will be thinking, I can't do that. I actually need four more hours to do all the other things that I need to do. But when you actually slow down, stop and reflect on all the things you're doing.
I think most of us realize that a lot of the stuff we're doing, it's just filler, right? It's stuffing. It's things that we won't even remember 10 days from now. Even two days from now, we won't even remember it. But we're on autopilot. We're responding to other people's expectations. We're ticking boxes. We're going through the motions. We're just doing stuff without even thinking about doing it. So just take a moment, try to do it two or three times a week where you just pause, like really pause.
Carl Honoré (21:07.978)
No podcast, no music, just look at what you got laid out for the next week and say, do the triage, right? What is really important here and what can I let go of? And I guarantee you'll find stuff to let go of. And as soon as you do that, you open up space, you create oxygen and allow the things that really matter to occupy more time, to get more of your bandwidth and your energy and your love and your attention. And you'll do them better and enjoy them more, right? And then once you've done that for three, four or five weeks, it just becomes second nature.
and you find yourself doing triage all the time without having to sit down and make a ritual of it. So I think that's a really useful thing. And actually just as an addendum to that, I always suggest when you're starting off on this journey of doing less and trimming and pruning your schedule like this, because you're going to feel panic at the start. going to think, I can't let this go, right? The whole sky will fall in. It won't. But to remind yourself that it won't, I recommend creating a not to do list. So we all have a to do list. So when you move something off that to do list and say, this is not important enough for me to do,
put it on a not to do list and keep those not to do lists in a drawer somewhere or on your phone in a note. Come back to them later on and you'll be amazed. You'll look at them and think, I don't even remember that thing, right? At the time I thought, I can't let this go, it's so important. A bit of perspective, some time goes by you think, dude, I don't even remember why I thought that was important at the time, it wasn't. And that again, just broadens your horizons, it widens your lens and it allows you to take a bit of perspective and realize that so many of the things we
day -to -day that feel urgent, undeniable and un -dropable are not. They're none of the above, right? They can
Tyson (22:43.964)
Yeah, it's amazing how much just getting out in nature hits a reset button. remember hearing, not sure what's her name. I can't believe I'm blanking on her, she's, it's going to annoy me. Anyway, there was a female musician from the 90s. was on Joe Rogan's podcast about 18 months ago, two years ago. I remember it really struck a chord with me. Cause one thing she said is she should speak about, or she would think often about the things that she feels give her life.
So she'll take notice of the place that caused stress whether that's too much admin or too much people tune up too often and then she'd go Okay, well, I've got a certain amount of time that I can attribute to that but on the flip side of that I've got certain things where I feel as though I expand I relax I open up I You know I can get out and just breathe and one of the standout points for her and I know so many people myself included is Just getting out in nature
And just a couple of weeks ago, I downloaded a book called The Hidden Life of Trees. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. It was written from like a, yeah, it was not what I was expecting. And honestly, I don't even know why chose it. It just sounded so interesting and so left of center to what I would usually read that I thought I'd pick that up. And I started listening to it. And one of the opening chapters was the author speaking about what's so magical about trees and why they included in so many kids stories. And what is it about like the mythical
Carl Honoré (23:42.356)
I've heard of that. Yeah, I haven't read that. Yeah, yeah. Is it good?
Tyson (24:06.108)
forests that appeal so much to it. And one of the points he made was that trees live in a different time zone to us. They live in a different timeframe. Often, especially the big trees, I could be misquoting, but I think he said the oldest tree in the world might be like 9 ,000 years old. And like the, or maybe that's way underquoting, I'm not sure.
Carl Honoré (24:23.598)
I might be 900. think the oldest ones are those ones in California, sort of general. They're like a hundred, I think they're 900, 900 ,000 years old or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, epic scale, right? We're talking about geological slowness
Tyson (24:35.34)
Yeah, for sure. And he was just speaking about how there's something that seems to be in the air when you're walking through that. It's almost like you're not consciously, but there's some element of wisdom contained within that. And I thought, well, it's an interesting way to look at, but at the very least, I get that feeling when I walk through that, hey, things that are causing stress when I'm sitting at my computer, all of a sudden seems to lose a little bit of power when I'm walking past trees.
The same is true when I'm looking at a sunset or an ocean or something else which is way bigger than me and the problems that I've got in my mind or sometimes even the problems that exist but have made bigger in my own mind than what they really are.
Carl Honoré (25:14.926)
Yeah, I think that's what it comes down to is that kind of scale thing to these problems feel enormous, right? When we're sitting in front of our laptops, but you step away and look at the big picture and you think these are not big problems. In fact, they don't even need to be problems at all. And it can be something as simple and as free and as accessible to pretty much all of us as getting out into a bit of green space, right? I mean, you don't have to be wandering among 900 year old trees, right? You can just go down to your local park and you
sit under a willow or whatever it is, you know, and that's, I think that's such a reminder that we're all creatures of the natural world and that we've been living now for a good 200 years at an industrial pace, right? Who's been setting the pace? It's clocks, it's computers, it's machines, and yet we're still natural creatures, right? And the natural world, nature doesn't do speed, right? I mean, nature is the embodiment, right? The apotheosis of the slow philosophy, doing things at the right speed.
Right? Nature has its own rhythms and tempos for everything. And it all works beautifully, harmoniously, and eternally. And it will outlive all of us with our rushing around. Let's be honest here, right? In the long run. But what happens when we try and speed up nature? It usually ends badly, right? Often for nature, but always for us. And so here we are. We've got this perfect example all around us. This inspiring example of slow on our doorsteps. I do think that more and more people
alive to that now and are moving in that direction. And I kind of feel also that just in the broad sweep of the history of the slow revolution, that the pandemic was a big inflection point because what was the pandemic if not a global workshop in slowness, right? I mean, it just forced everybody to slow down. Suddenly there was no FOMO because there was nothing to miss out on. now it's funny, a lot of people wrote to me during the pandemic and said, you must be so happy, right? Everybody's been forced to slow
And let me just make it clear right now that I was never happy about the pandemic at any point. It was a total ordeal for everybody in lots of different ways. But I do think for a lot of us, was a, it was, was that rare thing. It was a moment, a long enough moment to stop, right? Just to get off that hamster wheel and to look inward, to ask those big questions, to let our minds wander. And I think a lot of people, it's why you look around and many people came out of the pandemic thinking, you know
Carl Honoré (27:42.252)
I realized now that I was living a life that wasn't the right life for me. I was an autopilot and I'm going to make some big seismic changes now. So people coming out of the pandemic, changing careers, moving to a different country, leaving bad relationships, changing, I don't know, gender or whatever it is, right? Big, big changes that never would have happened if people hadn't done that slow homework, if you like, that metaphysical inward, you know, housework inside their own heads that you need to slow down in order to do properly. The pandemic, that was kind of a silver lining, I think, for many
And it's very revealing that you look at polls now and people are really, especially for younger generations, they're looking at the workplace, for instance, and saying, okay, I want to thrive, I want to do well, but not at all costs, right? So you talk to HR departments around the world now and they'll say the same thing. They'll say young people are coming in, they've got great credentials, they've got energy, they want to work really hard. But they don't want to
everything over to the job. They want, if they want to go home at 6 p .m. to give their newborn baby a bath, right? And if we don't allow them to do that, they'll go set up their own company or work for a company that will. So I do think that some tectonic plates are shifting here below the surface that we see in the workplace. We see them the way people are living their lives at home, how they're educating their children. And a lot of that, what stitches that together, I think, is slow. This idea of getting back to a pace that is more natural, that feels right,
that makes sense of the world and the lives that we're living. And a lot of that comes down to pace and a lot of that comes down to slowing things down, let's be
Tyson (29:18.146)
Yeah, that's such a good point. mean, even here in Australia, my wife and I, throughout the COVID pandemic, we were in Melbourne, which was sort of like a little bit embarrassing to be in, to the rest of the world, just based on how it was being handled. But fairly early in the piece, we got out of Melbourne and we moved to a little coastal town. And ironically, the pace of the coastal town slowed down, based on the fact that there's not as much traffic, but also it's quite a, or at least at the time that we moved here,
pretty much a retirement village. The average age, I reckon, was 94. And we came here and reduced that average by how many years just by us two moving. But throughout that period, there were a lot of families, young families around our age, 37, little younger, moving down and just pressing reset. And a big part of that was the restructuring of their jobs. A lot of them for however many years had to be at the office because that was just what you did. That was the way you worked.
Carl Honoré (29:51.106)
Yeah.
Tyson (30:12.176)
And then when the pandemic hit, people said, well, you can't come into work, but we'll make this work from home. And I laugh now because we're three years on or two and a half years on whatever it is. And so many of these people are still working full time at home, not because anyone's worried about COVID anymore, but because they've realized like, there's no way we're giving this up. This is amazing. Amazing. Like look at the productivity. Like look at what it is that we're actually achieving. You're trying to convince me I need to come in there away from my family and kids and hang out with you guys all day. It's just not going to happen. And so.
Carl Honoré (30:28.686)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tyson (30:39.662)
I mean, there's some real revelations throughout that period. And I think you're right. Like I really noticed it in myself and it seems clear that so many other people noticed that there was a different pace and a different focus that you could bring into your daily life that, you know, without that, maybe we wouldn't have even had a chance to pause and notice existed.
Carl Honoré (30:59.884)
Yeah. mean, the flip side of course is that there's still a big dominant drive towards acceleration in our culture. I I'm not some Pollyanna here telling you that slow has won the day. mean, there's a gym a few blocks from my house here in London that runs an evening course in speed yoga, right? For people who want to salute the sun and bend their bodies into the lotus position, but they want to do it in five minutes, you know, instead of an hour.
Tyson (31:17.4)
Yeah.
Tyson (31:24.289)
Hahaha!
Carl Honoré (31:26.124)
You might not be understanding what yoga is all about. And actually, thought speed yoga had to be the most absurd manifestation of this roadrunner culture until a friend of mine in the United States got invited a little while ago to a drive -through, like a drive -through funeral, right? Where, which, I mean, I wish this didn't exist, but the church places a coffin at the entrance, the mourners pull up by car and they say farewell to a loved one through a pane of glass, right? It's like picking up
a latte at a drive through Starbucks. I mean, it's fast, but you think, is it still a funeral? It's just, you just think, talk about racing through our lives instead of living them. But then, you know, let's go back to the upside, which is on the other end of the ledger. I do think that we are now much closer to embracing slow in a really wide and deep way. Just in the last few months, especially in the workplace, I've seen a lot of big changes. I mean,
Tyson (31:58.62)
Isn't that wrong? Yeah, would you like fries with that? Like what an experience.
Carl Honoré (32:24.462)
Cal Newport, know, the writer who's written a lot about distraction, so he's brought out a book called Slow Productivity, which is essentially taking these ideas of slow and putting them right down into the workplace, right? And I don't think anyone would have dared write a book entitled Slow Productivity five years ago, but there it is right there, you know, on the bestseller list in 2024. One of the leading business productivity thinkers at Stanford University recently published a big article in Inc. And his
thesis is that the key phenomenon of 2024 is going to be what he calls strategic slowness, right? So all these pieces are falling into place now, which for me is amazing, right? Because I've been banging this drum for a very long time and to see it all coming in a way to fruition now is kind of exciting, really. Because definitely 20 years ago when I wrote my first book in praise of slow, which basically became the handbook of the slow
movement, I felt like a lone voice in the wilderness, like I'd kind of stumbled in from the desert with the truth, if you like, or my truth, in any words, a version of the truth. And now to see it being held up in so many different walks of life is just extraordinary. And it makes me feel optimistic that we will crack this nut.
Tyson (33:44.06)
Sure. Yeah, it's interesting. I first discovered Cal Newport actually walking the streets of London. My wife and I lived there back in, we moved there in 2016 and we there till 2018 in a little place in in Tuffnell Park. I'm not sure if that's anywhere near you.
Carl Honoré (33:57.836)
That's another part of London, but I do know it. Yeah.
Tyson (34:00.238)
Yeah, sure. Right near Camden town on the Northern line. That was like a couple of stops north of Camden town. And I remember I was going through a phase there where we'd sort of moved away from the routine and structures of our life here in Melbourne. And, you know, it was not only placing us in a new culture, but it was so many of the commitments that we had were, I guess, being at least questioned at the bare minimum. remember, yeah, walking around there. I think it was deep. One of the works on
Carl Honoré (34:04.898)
Yeah,
Tyson (34:27.398)
sorry. One of his books around productivity, but in the sense of just delving in. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how new it was, but deep work. Sorry. Deep work. was. Yeah. And around that time I was, I was kind of down the rabbit hole of the minimalist and, and a number of these others, but it's amazing that it seems to come a point in everybody's life where this realization that the road that they've been on may not be that most effective or, you know, at least most in line with what it is that
Carl Honoré (34:30.508)
I think that's about the time it came out. Deep work or something or deep, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tyson (34:55.9)
legacy that they'll like to leave looks like. And they start to ask these kinds of questions. I mean, you know, whether it's the COVID pandemic or having kids or illness, it seems to come at you in some way. But I mean, you were, said around 2005 was kind of your entry point or around 20 years ago. What did that transition or what did that sort of journey look like to you coming into this slow world?
Carl Honoré (35:18.082)
Yeah, well, I now we're all these years further on and I'm a few books deep into my writing career. I realize now that all my books start with a personal existential crisis of some kind. And the first book in praise of slow is no exception to that rule. Back then I just was, I was just stuck in fast forward. I was just in road runner mode. Every moment of my day was a race against the clock.
And I realized that I just lost the plot when I started reading bedtime stories to my son. And back in those days, I mean, I just couldn't slow down. So I'd go into his room, sit on his bed and speed read Snow White. Yeah. So I'd be skipping lines, paragraphs. I became an expert at what I called the multiple page turn technique, which I don't know if you... Yeah.
Tyson (36:06.207)
I'm not even kidding and I'm ashamed to admit it. Before we recorded this podcast, I was doing the exact thing with Toy Story 4. It's a book that's about that thick my kid wanted to read before he went to bed and I had 10 minutes to get to you. And I I'm going to have to skip some line and some pages, but he's essentially what the pictures are trying to tell you.
Carl Honoré (36:22.862)
That's right. can say, here's the executive summary for you. Now go to sleep. it was, I mean, it was, of course, but I'm sure your son, like mine knows the stories inside out. So my son would always catch me say, daddy, you know, why are there only three dwarves in the story? What happened to Grumpy? And this really lamentable state of affairs, it went on for some time until I caught myself flirting with a book I'd heard about called the one minute bedtime story. So Snow White in 60 seconds, a book that had been published at the time. I thought,
Tyson (36:36.006)
He's reading the book here.
Carl Honoré (36:52.313)
Hallelujah, man, I need that book now, right? Amazon, like drone delivery. But then was like bulb over the head and I just thought, whoa, has it really come to this? Am I really in such a hurry? I'm prepared to fob off my little boy with a soundbite instead of a story. And it was one of those moments of searing epiphany. It was like an out of body experience. I could see myself there in sharp relief and what I saw was just, it was just ugly. It was unedifying. I thought.
this is insane, I'm just accelerating everything, even things that really should not be. And I thought, I just need to slow down. And that was kind of the starting point. And then as a writer, I wanted to understand not only my own addiction to speed, but the bigger picture. So I kind of began investigating and that just led to that first book and where we all are today. yeah, so the multiple page turn technique, I'll be just hearing you describing it there. mean, I'm 20 years on from that and I could, it's still.
brings a shiver, like I feel myself going back to that moment and just thinking, what are you doing? Cause you never get those moments back, right? This is the thing you, and what are we rushing? Okay, you had to rush from that reading session to our meeting. you know, in that case, but so often I'd have been skipping paragraphs and whole pages with my son. And there was nothing that I had to do afterwards. I was just on
this treadmill of speed and everything just had to be fast. I just couldn't bear bedtime stories because they were so slow. It was like a punishment beating, right? Just the very act of slowing down that much felt like, just felt like a, it was just painful, which is an awful thing. I used to dread bedtime stories. It's a terrible confession to make as a parent, right? But then of course the happy ending is that by slowing down and doing them at the right speed,
I fell in love with bedtime stories. It became the magic moment at the end of my day when I could leave everything behind, turn off my email and my messages, and just disappear into a bubble with my kids and tell stories and laugh and cuddle and just be together and became my reward at the end of the day. But I had to slow down in order to get there, right? Whereas when I was stuck in that Roadrunner mode, was thinking, how can I make this better by going even faster? Which at some point you hit a wall.
Carl Honoré (39:08.204)
because you can only ever go so fast. And I think just to go a bit meta here, I think this is where we are now as a culture that we are bumping up against the limits of how much speed we can take individually as human beings for our health, mental and physical, for our relationships and the planet, right? The planet is heading towards burnout as well because of all of this speed, this turbo consumption and work and everything we're doing all the time. And so I think we're getting to that end game where we've got a choice to make. Do we carry on?
on the upward curve of acceleration, or do we flatten that curve out a bit and start slowing things down and finding moments to be fast when speed is the best policy, but reconnecting with our inner tortoise when slowness is called for, right? Because basically for me, in a world addicted to speed, slowness is a superpower, right? And that's what we've got to hang on to here, that slowness is not a form of failure. It's not boring. It's not stupid. It's not going to turn you into roadkill. If you tap the power of
it will fire up everything you do, right? From your work to your relationships to your diet, every single thing, right? If you get the pace right. So this is there for all of us, right? It's not something we have to wait for somebody else to do. We can all start now by, you know, whether it's we talked about doing less. I mean, even just we touched in passing on technology. mean, use the off button, right? I mean, it's on every single gadget we carry around with us, but we don't use it.
I came across something recently, just following on from the tech thing, which again, makes me feel optimistic that we will reinvent our relationship with technology and find a better, more balanced way to be with screens. And it's this new ritual, it's called stacking. I don't know if you've come across it. It's, I don't know if it's reached Australia. Does it ring a bell? It's this idea that when particularly young people go out for a coffee or they all sit around the table and they pile up their phones in a stack in the middle. And whoever grabs the phone first to look at TikTok or Snapchat.
Tyson (40:54.209)
I've definitely heard of it.
Tyson (41:02.074)
I'm
Carl Honoré (41:06.424)
pays the bill for everybody, right? So it's just a fun way of saying, we have this moment here together now, we'll never have this moment again, why ruin it by trying to be in several moments at the same time? Let's just slow down and be here together in this moment. And that's a new social ritual that's been forged by the digital native generation, right? Not by my generation, we didn't grow up with screens, right?
It's been formed by those people because they are themselves bumping up against the limits of what speed can do for them. You know, they're realizing that yeah, social media is a lot of fun. can bring all kinds of richness and discovery and learning and connection. But if you're on it too much and in the wrong ways, it can bite you on the rear end, right? And why not just take a pause, step back and ask ourselves in every moment, is this a moment for the speed of the screen or a moment for a pace that's more human, right? And just playing
That dance, right? That dance between fast and slow, finding the right rhythm, whether it's having a coffee with your friends or a business meeting or the conversation you have with the person at your corner shop when you're picking up a pint of milk, whatever it is, right? Just getting into that moment with being present, being in the moment and choosing the right pace for the moment. Actually, ultimately kind of simple, but of course, for all the reasons we've touched on through the interview, hard at the same time, right? Because we're so programmed, we're so wired, we're
Tyson (42:18.447)
Yeah.
Tyson (42:26.753)
If you're like...
Carl Honoré (42:31.5)
drenched in this idea that faster is better. That's our default setting. But we just need to, we need to make those changes, small changes, change habits, all that kind of stuff. We've all read in self -help books, podcasts that help us, know, changing, forging new habits, new regimes, new ways of being in the world and start small. Right. This is one of the things I find quite funny is that people nowadays, we're also impatient that we even want to slow down fast. Right. So people hear this podcast or they read my book or they whatever, and they think,
I need to slow down and what do they do? Will they sign up for meditation and then they run across the street to do some yoga. Then they dash home to cook a four core slope. No, that's not the way, you know, and also you've got to realize that there will be withdrawal symptoms, right? When you start slowing down, you, you're going to make one step forward. You're just probably going to one step back. You're going to go one step. So, you know, but just keep going, keep going. And you will, you will get there because I tell you what you said this of yourself at the beginning. I'm a, I am a natural that
Type A, right? I am born and built for speed. So for me, was a long process. I didn't suddenly snap my fingers and I had the inner calm of the Dalai Lama in three days, right? It doesn't happen that way. I fell off the wagon many times. And even now, sometimes I find myself going a little faster than I should. But I stuck with it and I went through and came out the other side. So that now, genuinely, can tell you, honestly, I don't feel rushed, ever.
Tyson (43:41.101)
Yeah.
Carl Honoré (43:58.678)
I just basically don't feel rushed anymore. I get lots done. People look at my life on the outside and say, man, that doesn't look very slow. You're doing all this stuff. But what matters is what it feels like to me. And I don't feel rushed. I feel like I'm doing the stuff that matters to me and I'm doing it at the right speed. And that's really what, that's kind of the secret to life, I think, in a lot of ways.
Tyson (44:19.384)
for sure, it really is. mean, so much of what you just said rings so true to me, particularly to rewind back to what you were saying in regards and what I confessed, maybe wrongly. So maybe the wrong man to confess to about reading through the kid's story is it is interesting when you're rushing through a task just for the sake of rushing through a task and you can be honest with yourself how often you realize that the task that you're rushing to has become the new thing that you're rushing through like that treadmill.
really does never seem to stop. And there's a stress within that that sort of can't be eliminated. But one thing I've caught myself, and this is true. I mean, I'm not just saying it to stay on point, but one thing that I noticed specifically, because I too find bedtime stories very draining, especially my three year old kid can yell consistently all day and never stop questions. And I just go to bed immediately. One thing that I'll catch myself doing is in those moments when I'm actually like, all
Carl Honoré (44:48.877)
Yeah.
Carl Honoré (45:08.866)
Yeah.
Tyson (45:15.952)
There's nothing that needs to be done necessarily after this, like the kitchen's clean. There's nothing on Sally, you know, whatever it might be is it's actually way more enjoyable than we would otherwise realize when we've got that speed vision goggles attached. Hey, and it doesn't stop at reading a bedtime story. I'll notice this at the gym or going for a run or lunch with friends. mean, I'm sure it applies to every situation
Maybe that's the reason that Eckhart Tolle's Be Here Now book is so popular is it gives you some really practical guidance on, hey, where are you rushing off to? I like what Ram Dass used to always say. used to always say it was like nowhere to be and nothing to do. And despite the fact that that's to a certain degree untrue, that approach to life makes every element a little bit sweeter, a little more enjoyable. And I
for me at least, gives me a taste of what that artist's life must feel like.
Carl Honoré (46:15.894)
Yeah, it just takes the pressure off, doesn't it? Because I just feel that there's, I mean, there's the pressure to go fast, but also now we've added another layer of pressure, which is the pressure to perform, right? So that's social media. So we're not just doing all this stuff, we're actually putting it out there in a promotional version of ourselves, To look good, to boost our ratings, to goose the algorithm, to enhance our status. So we've got this extra layer of pressure, which I think moves us away from what really matters
when you've got the essence of what's really important in your life, the things you want to do or need to do to give life real meaning, you add speed on top of that, you're already moving away from what's important. You add performance on top of that, you're then another step away, right? So it is tricky. Again, I'm not being Panglossian here, right? This is not the easiest thing to do and the world is not to slow down, but it's the most important thing, right? And it is there for everyone, but we have to be aware of the resistance that we're gonna find.
in our social circle to our own deceleration and in our own minds and bodies, because there's gonna be pushback from our own selves against this new way of being in the world, this way of being a little bit more slow. But stick with it, right? I mean, that's always my message is just bear with it and you will start to see the fruits because that's one of the joyous things I think about slow is that you do taste right away the benefits of it, right? So if you, we talked earlier about going out into nature, right? You can feel that, right? You can feel it in
pores of your body, can feel it in the marrow of your bones, right? That you're just a little less fraught, you're a little less frenetic when you're out in nature. So that's something you, that's a payback that comes instantly. If you take time over food, you put the phones away, have a meal with your partner and linger over it. There's a kind of sensual, sensory joy that you feel right away. So there's payback right up front and you can create new feedback loops then, Remind yourself of
how relaxing it was, how freeing it was to spend that 15 minutes in the park before you spent the rest of the afternoon in the office, or the time you took a little longer in the morning to linger over coffee with your partner before leaving, or that bedtime story that you took the time to read instead of jumping a page, and how that extra little warmth in the cuddle with your child before he went to sleep after. Just remind yourself of those.
Carl Honoré (48:35.234)
little Easter eggs that you're going to collect along the way as you slow down. And that you'll then create new pathways in your own mind, neural pathways, new reward circuit pathways. So you can move away from the old pathways, which are so poisonous and toxic and lock us into this road runner mode of living. That's just basically a downward spiral and create new, more healthy ones that allow us to create lives that we're going to be really proud of. And we're going to enjoy living and slowness. Slowness is the key
Tyson (49:01.22)
For sure. Yeah. You said before that, you know, you're still catching yourself from time to time falling into the habit of speed and hurry and, know, whatever it is that you preach against. And I like the idea that you started out saying you're a Taipei personality originally like that, that sort of might be the, the fuel to the fire. You often hear people preach the message they need to hear the most themselves. And I think that's exactly why I'm so interested in everything you want to say or everything you have to say, because it's
message that it seems no matter how many times I'm told from sometimes it'll just sort of slip through my grasp of understanding and I'll be checking emails and Instagram and trying to read books to my kid all at the same time and none of them are effective and they're all causing frustration. But when you do catch yourself in those moments now after 20 years in the scene, like, I mean, what does that period of recognition and I don't know what the right word is, but perhaps diffusion of that particular situation look like to
Carl Honoré (49:59.638)
Yeah, I guess what it is now is it's just a little pause moment of awareness. And I laugh at myself and I think, you here you're not practicing what you're preaching and just take a couple of deep breaths and go back to doing whatever it was I was doing a little more slowly, right? And that's often one thing I suggest as well, coming back to tips is I think of this technique as this kind of speed audit. So just randomly at moments throughout the day, pause, stop, whatever it is you're doing
look at how you're doing it, and ask yourself, am I doing this at the right speed? Am I present? Am I here in the moment? Or am I going too fast? And if the answer is yes, I'm doing it at the right speed, hooray, go back and carry on as you were, right? But very often it's not, because we just slip into too much speed without even thinking about it. It becomes a sort of default knee -jerk reaction. So if it is, you find, I was doing that too fast, take three deep breaths, reset the body a little bit, go back to doing whatever that task was a little more slowly.
And just drop that speed audit into your day four or five times a day. Do it work a couple of times, once at home, maybe once in the store when you're doing some shopping, whatever it is. And you just, again, that then will become a kind of reflex. don't then have to say, okay, time for my speed audit. You're just constantly, the awareness is there. You're carrying it around with you like like a, like a man bag or whatever. It's just there, there to tap into if you need to, if you need to. I don't carry a man bag. use that.
Tyson (51:26.684)
I won't judge.
Carl Honoré (51:27.532)
I'm more of a minimalist type. I've got my phone in my pocket, that's about it. And even that, try and palm that off my wife. But yeah, so I think you just build up these, it's like a toolkit, right? Which at first is a bit self -conscious, feels a little heavy, you think this is a bit artificial, but it kind of works. You stick with it and then it becomes a natural reflex.
Tyson (51:49.894)
Yeah. mean, the phone's a really interesting one. It's come up a few times in this conversation. And I mean, it's one that I think everyone listening to this conversation is going to be at least aware of the, the appeal of, one of the most terrifying things I get each week is my notification update. Like what was my screen time compared to last week? And it always makes me nervous. Cause even for a bloke who thinks he's on the ball or on the pulse with what's going on with the screen time, sometimes the numbers will shock me, whether it's the amount of time spent on there or the amount of times I checked
And I've got a couple of just good practical rules written down around my phone time. Like a simple one is just allocating 15 minute, like a 15 minute block each day where it's like, okay, if you want to go on Instagram, you can, but it's got to be within this 15 minute block. And I mean, this is one that I fail on a regular basis, but it's been really helpful when I stick to it. Have you got any just general guidelines around like the use of the technology that can be so, you know, times, time draining time sucking in the way that you use
Carl Honoré (52:33.666)
Yeah, let's go do
Carl Honoré (52:47.276)
Yeah. I mean, think definitely having blocking off certain times, I this is when I look and this is when I don't, that's very helpful. I think it's also helpful. You can actually, you know, program the phone to cap the amount of time you can spend on certain sites. So that's very helpful as well. making sure you're looking at your times, looking back at the end of each day, because that can give you a little bit of a jolt and a reminder of just how much time is being sucked out by the black hole of social media. Cause we don't often realize at the moment how much time we're giving over to
I think also something very simple and tactile and real -worldy is where you put your phone, right? Because they've shown that the physical placement of the phone in your life affects how you relate to the technology. So for instance, they've shown that if two people are in a conversation together, and it could be anyone, could be husband, wife, two friends, colleagues, partner, whatever. If there's a phone visible, just visible, doesn't have to ring or vibrate or light up, just visible on the table.
Those people keep the conversation at a more superficial level, right? Because part of our brain is thinking, hmm, there's a phone there, what's happening in the end? The distraction is kicking in. So a simple win, anytime you're in a one -on -one or any kind of conversation, hide your phone. Like literally put it in a bag, maybe a man bag, or slip it under a newspaper. Just put it out of sight, right? And that very small act of slowness can make a big difference to the tenor and texture of the conversation you're gonna have with people.
That's when you're having it one -on -one. But even if you're at your desk, working alone with your laptop or your kitchen table, wherever you do your work, if the phone is there within your sight line, it's going to be chipping away at your attention. It's going to be niggling away. It's going to be whispering to you, right? Put it out of sight. Put it in a pocket. Just put it out of sight. And that can make a big difference as
Tyson (54:37.04)
Yeah. I'll notice that. Like one of the things I'll get so frustrated at and my wife gets over it because she thinks she can do two things at once. And she, very many cases she can, but whenever we're in a conversation and one of us has the phone out, it's a golden opportunity for the other one to go, okay. So like, didn't realize I was boring you so much with that situation. It is amazing how subliminally you take on that. okay. Well, whatever I'm saying is clearly not important based. It's not worth, it sort of hasn't justified your, your eye contact or your body language or, whatever else. is crazy how much of an impact.
Just those little things do make in, you know, at least the seeming meaningfulness of a conversation.
Carl Honoré (55:13.922)
Yeah, I know. And these are very small adjustments that we can all make, right? I no one is forcing us to have our phone in their sight line on the desk, right? That's just, no one is doing that. That's such an easy win, right? And I'm not saying that's going to revolutionize your whole relationship with technology. That's part of a bigger conversation and a larger journey, but it's a good first step, right? All of these little levers there that we can all pull to begin to free ourselves from the tyranny of constant distraction,
Let's be honest, we all feel it, right? And let's face it, some of the smartest people in the world are over there in Silicon Valley working out exactly how to capture and monopolize our attention, right? It's no surprise that we're falling into this fly trap, right? It's a very, very cleverly constructed trap. So we need to be equally clever and savvy about getting ourselves out of it. And we need to do it together, I think, as well. This is the other thing about slowing
We've talked a lot about what I can do, what you could, you but what we can do is so important as well. I mean, there's a wonderful old proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And I think that's a reminder that that slowing down is that it's not just about, of course, a big part of it is being more productive, more creative, having, you know, being healthier, all the happier, but also it's about reconnecting with other people. Right. You know, we are social animals. That's what really gives life meaning and, and, and, and joy.
And we can only really do that if we slow down and take those phones off the table. We're having a conversation, know, be together, take time to listen. And that's how we'll build a world where everyone can, you know, thrive and thrive together. think so much of what slowness can sometimes, I do sometimes find this in the conversation also, it can be very sort of self referential. all about how can I live a better life? But I think we want to widen out and whenever I write about slow running, would
add that extra dimension of the we, right? It's not just the I, it's the we. How can we slow down together? How can we help each other find the right pace that allows us to live better and create a better world for everybody?
Tyson (57:23.002)
Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, it's a message which has been going on for a long time. I know you've spoken about it for a long time. You still got books coming out on it. know it's the reason I think at least from my perspective is that it stays so relevant for so long, even in the short span in the context of things that I've been alive is as we've said, like often you'll grasp it, it will slip through your fingers. But I'm gonna make sure that for everyone who has enjoyed this chat can get access to all of your work. So is there a good place for me to direct them to your website?
Carl Honoré (57:51.564)
Yes. Very. Yeah, I've got a link tree with everything you could possibly ever more than you could ever want to know about me and my work. It's just my name. It's CarlHonore .info. So CarlHonore .info. everything's there. Video, audio, books, courses, you name it. My TED course, How to Slow Down. It's all there. One place, one stop,
Tyson (58:12.262)
Yeah, awesome.
Tyson (58:17.744)
Yeah, all right, well, I'll make sure for everyone listening that is gonna be linked in the show notes, but man, I'll love you and leave you. Thank you so much for making the time. I was really looking forward to this chat. I've loved your work from a distance for a little while now, so it's nice to get the chance to sit down and go back and forth with you.
Carl Honoré (58:33.09)
Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to start to finish. Looking forward to getting this out into the
Tyson (58:37.956)
Awesome man, we'll leave it there. We'll see you later. Awesome man, I'll cut that off there. Hey Carl, that