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For Veterans by Veterans. Discover and execute on the most important mission of your life. Join host, Mike Bledsoe, as he delves into transformative journeys, exploring the challenges and triumphs of transitioning from military to civilian life. Through compelling stories and expert insights, we uncover the keys to personal growth, resilience, and purposeful living.
Mike Bledsoe (00:00)
Welcome to the Mission After podcast, where we help veterans discover and execute on the most important mission of their lives. I'm your host, Mike Bledsoe, and today's guest is Dr. Richard Tedeschi, the executive director of the Boulder Crest Institute for Post Traumatic Growth in Virginia. Dr. Tedeschi has developed programs based on post -traumatic growth to support combat veterans and first responders. He has published 10 books and numerous articles
Earning Recognition as Topside Researcher by Stanford University. Today he will share insights on the concept of post -traumatic growth and its importance in mental health and well -being. Before we dive in, we have a new cohort of veterans starting the Mission After mentorship program. Head over to the missionafter .org to join the wait
this July for a 90 -day program that will help you establish a solid foundation for your identity, relationships,
And of course, discover your next mission and execute it. Now let's get into the conversation with Dr. Rich Tedeschi.
Mike Bledsoe (01:01)
All right, we've got Dr. Rich Tedeschi here. I have I'm really excited to talk to you today because I've been hearing this term post -traumatic growth for a while. I had some friends that made a film about it and I hung out with my fiance is actually a psychotherapist and I brought the term up to her and she turned her head like she had never heard it before. And so
From what I understand what it is, is being able to take things that sometimes people experience as post -traumatic trauma and they're able to turn it into something even greater. And from what I understand, you coined this term, is that correct?
Richard Tedeschi (01:48)
That's right, Mike, back in 1995, actually, with my colleague at that time, Lawrence Calhoun, when we were at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte, working on these matters then.
Mike Bledsoe (01:59)
Yeah, the I imagine some therapists may not have heard about this because it doesn't sound like something that would show up in the DSM five. Is that accurate?
Richard Tedeschi (02:09)
That's certainly accurate. DSM -5 is all about diagnosing problems and of course disorders. It's the diagnostic and statistical manual mental disorders. So we're not saying those disorders don't exist or they're not important or that accurately identified that way. What we're saying is more to the story of people than those kinds of labels.
Mike Bledsoe (02:38)
Yeah. Do you find that those labels are helpful or is that, you know, just situational?
Richard Tedeschi (02:44)
Well, as we talk through this, I think what you're going to find we end up discussing is that there's two sides to a coin and both sides have their validity to them. So certainly when people receive a diagnosis, sometimes that's a relief for people. And they say, well, someone gets it.
And actually there's a name for what I'm struggling with. And of course, for some people that means also some kind of benefits that accrue to them, which is important for people. So it's certainly useful. And these diagnostic categories are just shorthand ways that professionals communicate with one another about what's going on with the person. So if you say post -traumatic stress disorder,
Mike Bledsoe (03:24)
Mm -hmm.
Richard Tedeschi (03:40)
to someone who's in mental health, we all generally know what we're talking about because we know the criteria from the system. So it's just a shorthand basically. But there's a lot more to it in people's lives than that. And that's a focus on just one aspect, which is unfortunately the negative things, the symptoms, the problems, the part of it that people are trying to...
get away from and the experiences that are really troubling them. So that's part of the picture, but with post -traumatic growth, we're talking about the positive changes that happen as a result of the struggle with trauma crisis.
Mike Bledsoe (04:28)
Got it. What got you into this field of study or, you know, did you, were you a researcher and got into more of the practical application or how did, how did you stumble into this?
Richard Tedeschi (04:39)
Well, I'm a clinical psychologist, so I was trained as both a researcher and a clinician. So in my job at University of North Carolina at Charlotte, which I retired from several years ago, I was teaching, I was doing research, and then I was also working in my own private practice in psychology on the side. You can see some clients that way.
So I was all those things. And I mean, the story really is that I started to think along the way in my career about what I really wanted to know as a psychologist and maybe the important questions that came to me were that I wanted to know about how people become wise, where wisdom comes from. And Lawrence Calhoun and I decided that we would
Mike Bledsoe (05:27)
Mmm.
Richard Tedeschi (05:33)
start to investigate this. And at the time we started this, which was in the mid 80s, there wasn't a lot of information in the psychology literature about such things, not much research or science on it. So we started from scratch essentially by deciding to interview people we thought might have some wisdom. So we chose certain people to interview and those were people who were either very old,
you know, the wisdom of the agent, that kind of idea. Or they had been through losses. And we also decided to interview people who had suffered physical disabilities in adulthood, but had done well. So we tapped into our comrades in the rehabilitation community and asked, you know, who do you know who's suffered some pretty grievous illnesses or injuries and done well?
become paralyzed, blinded, that sort of thing. And so we interviewed those people to see how they managed through those things. And then when we started hearing stories from all these folks, some themes started to emerge and some surprising kind of results from those early studies. And then we did a lot more research, more quantitative research after that.
which help us define what these outcomes, positive outcomes, could be for people.
Mike Bledsoe (07:04)
Yeah, when I when I think about wisdom, I don't think about that something that the world of psychology studies much that sounds more like the world of philosophy. Like, we talk about wisdom, we might that that's like a philosopher's approach and science emerges from philosophy, of course. And how do you define wisdom?
Richard Tedeschi (07:27)
Well, you know, we say this is more the arena of the philosopher. That's probably, that's true. And in fact, philosophers come up with all kinds of concepts and theories about things and psychologists do too. But what differentiates us from the philosophers is we try to test them out with research. So we put those things to the test, those theories and ideas. So in terms of what
wisdom is, first we have to figure out some way of defining it so that we can research it. And so there are different definitions of that, but one of the ones that I think is most important is, has to do with the practical application of how to understand the world and how to live well in it.
So we have to, I mean the wise people practically apply their understandings of themselves and the world and what it means to be a human being in their everyday life. So it's not just someone who sits around and thinks stuff, but a person who knows how to live well.
Mike Bledsoe (08:42)
How do you define that? How do you know if someone's living well? It sounds like a very subjective measure.
Richard Tedeschi (08:48)
Well, well, yeah. And so there's, if you look at what living well might mean, it usually means something about how people interact with others in the world and have an impact in the world and how they live with themselves. And they're able to have a charitable approach to both themselves and other people.
which allows them to see the possibilities and encourage the possibilities and strengths in themselves and in others so that human beings who are touched by them are able to make the most of their capabilities. And so that applies interpersonally in terms of how people interact with others.
whether they're parents or teachers or coaches or leaders of any kind or friends or neighbors, you know, they have this kind of impact where people benefit from their presence and do better as a result of their influences. And these individuals also have an ability to manage their own lives well and live their own lives well so they can appreciate themselves and...
Mike Bledsoe (09:57)
Mm.
Richard Tedeschi (10:14)
tolerate their own shortcomings and improve them and not become discouraged by the things that they're experiencing internally and emotionally in their own lives or by what's going on out there in the world. So it's the impact on oneself and others.
Mike Bledsoe (10:35)
Got it. So you work with a number of veterans. How long have you been working with veterans?
Richard Tedeschi (10:41)
Well, I first got started, boy, I guess probably 20 years ago when I was doing some training for the military, training mental health professionals in the military. So I'd go to some of the bases where there was mental health resources available and I'd do some training.
And then I became briefly involved in the early development of the comprehensive soldier fitness program. But then most of my work in the past 10 years has been done through Boulder Crest Foundation, which is a nonprofit based in Virginia, which is a place where veterans and first responders can come and be involved in our programming.
which is based on this concept of post -traumatic growth.
Mike Bledsoe (11:43)
Got it. So when people show up, what are some of the things that people show up with their, what are they dissatisfied with? Can you give us some examples? Like one of the things I, I really like for veterans who are listening to the show is to go, yeah, that reminds me of where I'm at and, and what's possible. Can I actually move from this place and, and move into something better?
Richard Tedeschi (12:08)
Well, I have to tell you, Mike, Bouldercrest was founded in 2013 by a Navy veteran named Ken Falk. He was a 20 year Navy veteran, did EOD work. And then after he left the Navy, he did some contract work. And then when he got out of that, he used those funds to found this foundation and
found this beautiful place on some property he was living on in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, a little over an hour outside of DC. And Ken and his wife, Julia, decided to do this because they'd been visiting veterans at Walter Reed a lot and bringing some of them home for a little R &R to where they had their beautiful place in the mountains. And they decided they needed to do a whole lot more than that.
They saw the need and so they wanted to establish kind of a retreat center. So they did that. But when I met Ken about an hour, a year rather, after he built that, he was wanting to do programming because he said, you know, just giving people a little, you know, rest was not enough. They needed a whole lot more. So we started building this program based on post -traumatic growth. And so the veterans that come,
First of all, they all come for free. We don't charge anybody anything. So we have some donors and they do a great job of supporting us. So they come and if they have any kind of struggle with what's going on in their lives, it doesn't really matter what kind of struggle it is, but they're looking to do better, to be more well and to find a new purpose in their life.
Mike Bledsoe (13:31)
Mm -hmm.
Richard Tedeschi (13:58)
And it could be because of combat trauma, but it could be, and you know, it's interesting that when people come to our program, they often discover some things about themselves that they didn't realize were really sources of a lot of their pain. So it doesn't necessarily have to be combat trauma at all. In fact, it could be other kinds of things going on in their lives. What's happening in their marriages and family.
estrangement from people that they care about, could be some problems with substance abuse. Often it's childhood trauma. Often it's things that happened before they got into the military. Sometimes the things that sort of led them to seek a new community in the military because where they were and their family and community wasn't working well for them. So it's all kinds of things that people...
unearth about their past or realize about their past that have been giving them trouble. So that's, you know, it's just such a variety. And we serve both men and women in separate programs, female programs and male programs. So it's quite a variety. Everybody's got their own story.
Mike Bledsoe (15:11)
one of the things I've found is a lot of people that a lot of veterans who they start looking at, you know, maybe they experienced something in the military that seemed traumatic, and it's really easy to point at that. And then we start digging in and we go, I also had, you know, some trouble at home when I was a child. And I you know, I
I've worked with a lot of people and it seems like there's a higher incidence of troubled homes, of people in the military than those of civilians. And it seems as though, coming from a troubled home may cause you to be like more likely to join the military in the first place. And I know a lot of people who,
the family they found in the military felt way more loving than what they experienced prior to the military, which makes it even harder to leave and harder to cope with when they get out. Is that something you found to be true?
Richard Tedeschi (16:10)
That is right on the money. Absolutely. And that's why leaving the military is so stressful, difficult, even traumatic for people because they're losing their sense of family that they gained while they're in the military. I mean, so many people, I'm sure as you know, say that's the best time of my life. I mean, that was the best despite all the crap that might have happened and some terrible things that happened. If it was a place where they had camaraderie,
and connection, in a sense of belonging and purpose. No wonder it felt good because of all of that. And then you leave and it's like, leave to what? And then you're starting to be confronted again with some of the old issues pre -military that maybe had never really come to terms with.
Mike Bledsoe (16:47)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen so much of that. It's, it's interesting that if we never learned how to have a healthy home, you know, environment, and then we experienced the military, then we have to learn like a whole nother way of being that was never taught to us. It's not like, you know, I went in the military when I was 19, and I get out and
It's not like I just got to plug right back in where I was at. I re -entered into society and like I admit it's like I had missed something that had happened. Everyone else, some everyone else had gotten something that I had missed. And then I, it seemed like a mystery of what it was.
Richard Tedeschi (17:48)
That makes a lot of sense from the stories I've heard too. The mystery, that really strikes me when you use that word, because I think it does feel mysterious. It's like, you know, things have been going on since I've been a civilian, and so what has it been? What have these people been doing? What have they been learning? How do they function in this world? And I'm not sure how to do it, but they just seem to get it and I don't. It really does feel mysterious, I think, for a lot of people.
Especially if you didn't get it in your family life earlier on and your family life wasn't very functional. So you weren't learning the skills there.
And so sometimes we find that people come out through our programs have a pretty solid family history and background and that really sustains them, has helped them through things. And other people, you know, have had nothing but one kind of misery, trauma after another. You know, life is just a story of one of those kinds of
incidents after another and you start to wonder is there ever going to be something in life that feels safe and feels right or is this going to be the continuing story?
Mike Bledsoe (19:09)
So one of the first things that hit me when I heard post -traumatic growth, it made me think of potentially like a Viktor Frankl approach. And that instead of focusing on the past or focusing on what was wrong or what was happening in the moment, putting a lot of attention on the outcomes that are desired. And he was like one of the pioneers in shifting psychology away from
what was and moving more into what can be is is that in line with what you're up to? It sure is. Frank and his existential approach is part of what is an influence on this work on post -traumatic growth. So, you know, when we talk about I just want to make clear, you know, we coined this term post -traumatic growth.
because we felt like the experience needed something that was a good descriptor, but it's certainly something that's been talked about, written about, experienced for the ages. As long as there's been people in this world going through trauma, there have been these transformative experiences that have been written about. So, Frankl is certainly one who has talked about that along with the other.
existentialists. And, you know, those include people like Rollo May. And some of the some of the humanistic psychologists like Abraham Maslow also talked about transcendent functions and things of that kind. So other people have discussed these sorts of things, too. And then outside of psychology, like you said,
or philosophical existentialist writers. And then we find it in literature and religion. There's all sorts of stories of people who are triumphing over tragedy and trauma and changing themselves. And, you know, it's a common human story, which is what's so remarkable at the fact that in mental health, we haven't paid any attention to it, really.
We just keep paying attention to the worst of things and talk about people who are diagnosable and have these sorts of problems and take a very essentially pessimistic viewpoint about their possibilities. So it's really remarkable that in mental health we have not brought these kinds of possibilities into focus more.
Do you think that's because Western medicine seems to be hyper -focused on symptoms instead of root causes and such? I think that's a big part of it, Mike. Medicine is focused on healing and cure and all of that, which is good. I mean, who wouldn't want that? But not so much on prevention and not so much on maintaining health.
But if you look at medicine in recent years, I think that it's shifting more in that direction. It's more discussion about wellness and health and how to remain healthy. And I was just talking to one of my family members today, a few hours ago. We were talking about growing up and how we used to live in our families and whatnot. And we were saying, when we were growing up, there was no attention paid whatsoever to eating well, for example.
We just ate all kinds of crap. We didn't ever hear anything about, you know, I don't know, cholesterol or anything like that. and, and so, you know, I think there is some shift in this more positive direction of health and wellness in certainly in mental health. we, we want to see more of that as well. Yeah. I mean, there, there's a ton of meditation apps out there and, and,
you know, journals that people can buy and, you know, it's, was it the artist way? I did that a while back and that was a pretty phenomenal journal practice. Yeah. What, what, what are some of the, the best maintenance tools that you see for mental health? Right.
Well, there are, as you say, a lot of tools out there, things for people to use. But I think that those things are most effective when people have an overall understanding of what's going on with them emotionally and what has to be addressed instead of just applying some sort of
to a problem that they don't really understand. So it's almost like you got a bunch of great tools in your toolbox and you go to your car because it's acting up. You got all these great tools, but what do you use? You know, unless you understand what the problem is. You know, you can have all the great tools in the world and they're not going to really do you much good unless you understand the system and what's going on with the system and how to make it right.
So I think that's the same thing. People have to understand their own psychological, emotional systems. And then based on that, they're going to have better luck applying the tools or the approaches that are going to be helpful for them. Yeah, that's a really good point. I remember trying meditation so many times in my twenties.
I was like, okay, I know that if I meditate, it's going to help sharpen my mind. It's, you know, I had no idea what potential results were on the other side. I just knew that it was good and that people who were avid meditators swore by it. And so I would try to sit for five minutes and then get all antsy and, and I, all right, I'm just going to five minutes a day and that would last like two or three days. And then I would totally fall off and
It wasn't until I went into had an experience that was a pretty, that created a very dramatic shift that I could see the value in the tool of meditation. And, and even then I didn't quite know how to use it appropriately. It was years of looking under other stones and rocks and looking around. And then I go, okay. This is, this is how meditation actually assists me. But
I needed something else to bring me somewhere. And then meditation to me seems like more of like a stabilizing where I'm currently at. The only time I've seen that be different is like I did a 10 day Vipassana, which is an incredibly rigorous meditation practice that most people have no interest in doing.
And I would say there's some exceptions there with something like that. So yeah, I see what you're saying. It's like, these are just tools. If we don't know how to tinker, if we don't know what's going on, then that might be the case. Living in Austin, Texas, I run across a bunch of people that are biohackers and doing the cold plunge and sauna and meditating and journaling, which is all great.
But sometimes like miss the mark on, did I actually go in and look deeply in myself and unearth some things and have some assistance and making progress there? So what do you find to be the most useful way? Obviously you've created some protocols on a
Protocol is the right word, but some type of system and protocols that have helped numerous people. In fact, one of the reasons I found you is because I was on Reddit and I was in the veteran thread on Reddit and I go in there every once in a while just to talk to other veterans and see what they think about things.
It's pretty crazy in there if you haven't checked it out. So it's wild. It's wild. It attracts a certain type of veteran. And so I posted something about, you know, what are the habits you picked up in the military that are no longer serving you? And that question, I got, I think over 300 responses. It blew up. It was like, it got...
It was at the top of the Reddit thread for days and people really loved answering that question. And I had somebody reach out to me and they sent me a little message and said, hey, I think they thought maybe I was complaining. I was actually doing more research. And they go, if you need help, I would really check out the...
post -traumatic growth and Boulder Crest. And it really helped me out. And then I got to your site and I was looking around and I go, wow, this seems like they're really doing really cool stuff. So what do you do with somebody? Someone comes in, they go, you know, I saw some combat or maybe, you know, just being in the military was hard. You know, basic training is traumatic. It's not a walk in the park. It's you get there and it's a dramatic shift from your everyday life.
And there's a lot of psychology being used there to shift how you think and train you to be a certain way. And one of the things I talk about is most people don't come in with any tools at all. And so the only thing you know how to do is suppress emotion in order to get through the day. And so that gets ingrained even further. And so when someone shows up and they come to a retreat where you're at,
What is it that they experienced that transforms something that may be called PTSD into post -traumatic growth? Well, man, you know what? You start getting into this, I can talk a long time. I'm sorry. But let me see if I can say something. I nerd out on this. I love it. OK, OK. So first of all,
Our programs at Boulder Crest we call training. You mentioned basic training. So we see this as training also. It's not therapy. I don't do any of these programs myself. I'm not involved. I help design and I help research and I help train our trainers. Our trainers are all veterans themselves. So it's all peer -based because we believe that people have to have a
sort of experiential cultural competency to have the best impact and people come to the program. So, you know, if you're a veteran, you're going to more likely trust another veteran who's done this stuff than someone like me who's, I'm not a veteran, you know, some civilian psychologist, what the hell do I know? So, it's peer -based. So that's the first thing. And all of our trainers are,
people have been through our program themselves. They've gone through it, put themselves through this. And we train them up very carefully. And they're composed of, we call them guides, the path guides. There's a program that's called PATH, Progressive and Alternative Training for Healing Heroes is what we call it. So the PATH guides, you know, we have...
five or six in each one of our locations. So they're a tight knit group. And they have a manual that follows like 200 pages for the week long program that they go, you know, they're using. But they're also using themselves very personally and idiosyncratically. They're not, it's not reading from a manual or anything like that, but it really specifies what they need to do. And so what the manual lays out,
what people go through and go through the program is there's part of the program that has to do with education about trauma and the effect of trauma on people psychologically and physiologically so people understand why things have happened to them and they get the message that it's not what's wrong with them it's what happened to them whether things that happened to them early in life or later in life during the military before since whatever
they're reacting to these things because they're human beings and human beings respond a certain way to injury, you know, whether it's physical injury or psychological injury. So there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that they were injured. Okay. So that's a message and we kind of explain how this all works. So that's one thing. So they don't have to feel like they're, you know,
they're disordered or broken or something like that. They're not. They're simply responding to injury. Then we have to help them with emotional regulation, which is what you were talking about with the meditation, because we train meditation and other ways of regulating the emotions that are dysregulated because of these experiences they didn't have. So now they're like car alarms going off the middle of a parking lot.
And there's nothing going on, but they're alarmed nonetheless. So they got an alarm system that's working great. It's just unnecessary under these circumstances. So we've got to help them learn how to dial that back and regulate those reactions. So we teach that in all kinds of ways. We teach it through, like I said, meditation, but also other kinds of experiences. We use a lot of outdoor stuff and physical stuff.
So we work with horses, for example. We work with archery. People walk labyrinths, do kayaking, climbing, all kinds of stuff. But this is not like a fun retreat. All of this is devised to teach lessons and help people learn how to do these things for themselves. It's not going there and having a lot of fun. It's hard work. And then there's the emotional work too, because
A big part of it is disclosure. People have to talk about their stories, about what happened, and kind of put the pieces together so they understand themselves, about how they grew up, how they got into military service, what happened there, what's happened since. I mean, a lot of people might have been out of military service for 15 years or something like that before they come to our program. We've had people come to our program or in their seventies, you know, so you had all kinds of people.
young 20 year olds to, you know, 70 year olds and everything in between. I think that's a great thing to hear. Cause I think sometimes people go, you know, it's been so long and I've been living this way for so long. I can't see a way for it to be any different. But the truth is, is at any point in time, someone can, they can be new. They can have a new choice. Absolutely. You know, one of the, one of the people just as inside who's
One of our best folks people for our program is a guy named Charlie Plum, who was one of the POWs in Hoi Huy Hilton in Vietnam. And Charlie still flies planes. I think Charlie's around 90, something like that. He's flying planes. He's running around the country doing all kinds of stuff. He's amazing. And he talks about post -traumatic growth. And he talks about how that worked in his life and how he wants people to be able to see this.
So it doesn't matter how old you are, you've still got potential. So people got to understand their story, but also we're forward looking. We don't focus only on the past and stuff. We're looking to the future. Like you said, with Victor Frank, we're looking at what you're going to do next. Like you say with your organization, the mission after, that's right. So we try to help people.
see their story, their narrative, their personal narrative in terms of not only what's happened to them, what they've been through, but how that's affected them in certain ways, not only negatively, but also given them experience, strength, even wisdom that they can take into their future. So that by the time they leave our program, they have now defined for themselves something about what their new mission is.
and how to take care of themselves well so they can perform these missions. And that may be a mission in their family, that may be in their neighborhood or community, might be with other veterans. It might be starting a foundation, who knows what, but it's their own personal version of their mission and their purpose that they have to be able to see and to be able to perform so that life becomes something where it's
living and they can see their own value. So those are all the different components of this program. And we cover that in seven days. And then, and they're in groups of like six to eight people. And then after that, we continue to do online support for them, get them back together online. We have all kinds of resources on our website that we provide to them and follow them for another 90 days minimum.
and they can stick with us beyond that longer if they want. But we have all kinds of resources to support their journey afterwards. So that's basically what the program is about. And we measure everything. We're gathering data on everybody that comes through the program so we can see how it's working, how to improve it. So we're very data -driven.
research driven. Yeah. And we've got data that shows really good results. That's really great.
I think having the combination of, yes, we're going to look at the past. We're going to see the narratives. We're going to look at where we came from and we're going to look our way forward because I've seen a lot of programs is the right word, but I've seen a lot of people getting like a healing loops. They're always looking for more healing. I see it in the
psychedelic space. I've been involved in the psychedelic space for 11 years and I witnessed some people just always in the healing, like always, you know, journeying to try to find, you know, why they're not working right now, but haven't really gotten home with themselves yet and created the future. And it seems like it's a ever always looking back type of thing. And I think people end up with
that same situation and psychotherapy at times, there's OCI therapists and they're just always talking about the past and not really creating anything for the future. And then I also witness in like a lot of personal development work in the coaching space, a lot of times it's very future oriented. It's like, okay, this is where you are now, forget the past and just, let's just focus on what's in front of us. And then...
those people keep on hitting these invisible stumbling blocks and they don't know where they're coming from because they never actually resolved the past. And so it sounds like having both present are absolutely necessary. And that's where I see the best results come from. You're absolutely right. That's what I believe too. You know, it's interesting. We tell people that they can have to understand their MOS.
But in our terms, MOS means my old story. I love that. So they kind of do a bit of a life review, you know, see where they came from and what affected them and, you know, all of that. And but then we have then we turn them towards the future. OK, now what? What's next? And what are you going to take from that old story?
that we can now see as strength and an indication that you have knowledge and wisdom, that you have talents, glean from that. So the old story isn't just a bunch of misery and failure or trauma and loss or something like that. Out of all that, we've got to look for the nuggets.
No, things that we can build on because that's what we're going to use to go forward now. And we, we do very deliberate work in helping people go forward on things like their eating, how to sleep well, make sure they exercise, make sure they take care of their finances. So they're not in financial trouble because that'll just wreck people. and,
and how to communicate in relationships. I mean, we hit upon all this stuff. So they have some understanding of how to leave, to go back to their homes with capabilities that they didn't have before. And, you know, with that, it's just so wonderful to see what people are able to do and how it changes things back home when they come back with that kind of
perspective on things and on themselves and what they want to do. So it's really very gratifying. I've been working for 10 years with Boulder Crest and it's just been a life -changing experience for me to see the research and stuff that I did at the university be utilized in this way to help so many people. I do my own private
psychological practice and do some help there too. But, you know, just the, just the numbers of people that we ended up being able to help is just tremendous. That's great. Y 'all are working with veterans and first responders and I imagine these techniques are also being used with spouses or I don't know if it's happening at your, where you're doing it, but has this, has this expanded beyond Boulder Crest or a lot of these methods and techniques?
Well, you know, first of all, we have three campuses ourselves. We have one in Virginia, outside of DC that I mentioned. We also have one in Arizona outside of Tucson, a ranch in the high desert country in Tucson. And just, we're just acquiring another one in Texas, actually, outside of Dallas. So we have our three sites there. But we also have
seven others in other places around the country that are centers where we train up the staff at these existing places that are other veterans organizations so that they can use our programs. So we're in South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Arkansas, Maine, we should where else California, Oregon, all sorts of places. So, so
you know, we were able to go to these places with our, our training teams and run our programs too. So we can do a lot. And then for first responders, I mean, as you might know, a lot of first responders are veterans. You go from the veteran space, you know, they get jobs as firefighters or police officers, EMTs, you know, come out of being a medic and now you're an EMT. So it's the most familiar thing when I got out of the Navy.
I immediately started looking at the police departments. Yeah. Okay. This is the most familiar thing that I know. Yeah. And, and it's still, I find that it's not quite the same. The veterans I talked to, they're like, it's not quite the same lifestyle I was experiencing before. No, of course not. Because you go home to your own bed and stuff, you know? Yeah. But, but yeah, so there are a lot of veterans there. So we do a lot of work with first responders. So what we do there is,
we go to police departments and fire departments, emergency medical departments, and work with the personnel in those departments and present to them this kind of post -traumatic growth approach and peer support approach to help them develop their culture and their departments to be more supportive of one another and see their strengths and capabilities and give them tools to use. But when we do so, it's...
It's a commitment from those departments top down. So we've worked very closely, for example, with Tucson, Arizona, Miami, Florida, Massachusetts State Police, all different, different first responders across the country. And the whole idea is we stick with them and train everybody in the, in the organization. So the whole organization starts to change its culture.
to one where people are supportive of one another, they help each other out, and hopefully they prevent suicides this way, to keep people working at a high level and be able to interact in the community in ways that are much more constructive. So when you get a police chief who says, this is what we're going to do, and everybody's going through it,
no matter whether you, yes, it's not just people seem to have mental health problems or discipline problems with everybody, you know, you know, then you have a cultural shift and and great things happen. So we're applying our work that way as well. Yeah, I love that. I love the peer support perspective. I know we're that's how our organization works is, you know, we're all veterans working in there.
So we understand where people are coming from. I know some other organizations that work that way. And it's, not only is it potentially more effective, but I think it's the only way that's truly scalable. And I think that's one of the things that I see happening. My interactions with the VA and a lot of other veterans interactions with the VA has been, it's been lacking.
and what they actually need. And I think part of it is, is that if you want mental health assistance from the VA, they're gonna assign you a therapist. And I've heard so many times, like I went and saw the therapist and they really don't understand where I'm coming from. You know, I'm thinking when I hear this, I'm like, yeah, if you could open up, they could probably help you. But that's part of it, right? Part of it is just feeling safe enough to be able to open up and have that conversation.
But even with the VA, they have a hard time staffing enough therapists to be able to serve everybody. There's 200 ,000 new veterans every year. Are we gonna have enough therapists assigned to everybody and they get out? I don't think so. And knowing that you have to really work hard with the VA in order to get those benefits. And so, I mean, do you ever see, I don't know if you've ever worked.
with or alongside the VA at all, but would you ever see the VA being able to implement like a peer support type of system? Well, the VA says they do have peer support, as you know, but it's not like this. I mean, we get people, for example, we get people from the VA's near where we are in Virginia. They'll send folks down to us, to our programs. So we have connections with the VA that way.
That's kind of unusual actually. And you're speaking my language when you say that the peer support idea works because of at least two important reasons. One is the credibility that peers have, first of all. So you can get past all that trust building really quickly and you're literally speaking the same language. I was like, when military guys start with their acronyms and I'm lost.
Please define that term, you know, but you can talk to one another and just know. So there's that. There's the credibility. And then there's the scalability. You are exactly right. There is no way in this country we're going to meet the mental health needs of people in this country, whether you're talking about veterans or anybody else. It's just too great. You can't train enough therapists to handle all of what's needed.
You need it as a, we talk about it as democratizing mental health because, you know, ultimately we have another agenda and that is not only to serve veterans and first responders, but to start to shift how mental health services are delivered in this country by showing the way that a peer support approach can be so effective that communities
can be helping themselves. And of course there's a need for professionals like me for certain people in certain situations, but peer support can work for so many. And if we can democratize mental health where we give a bit of training to people and how to do the simple things that make the biggest difference in mental health assistance, and that is being a good listener.
being someone who can stick with someone through the tough times with some kindness and warmth and be empathic. I mean, if you just, I mean, that's the basic stuff that actually carries the most weight in psychotherapy outcome. You can do that. Peers can do that. Just human, good human beings can do that stuff. So, you know, if we can get that happening.
we can address mental health needs in this country much more effectively than we're doing right now with our, well, we don't even really have a mental health system. We have a mental health, you know, non -system as far as I'm concerned. It's just very hard for people to get the help that they need, especially if you don't have a lot of resources, if you don't have money and insurance and stuff like that. So, yeah, we've...
we've got to use a peer -centered approach in order to meet the tremendous mental health needs that are out there. Not only among veterans, and first responders, but all kinds of people in this population. And you start to think about who are some of the folks that we depend on most who have been most traumatized, sometimes vilified, but are most important are...
population that includes also healthcare workers of various kinds and teachers. So two other populations that I think really could use some help is healthcare workers and teachers. And I've talked to a lot of them who've been hurt badly by how people have treated them. Like they're not of great value and their credibility and capability has been questioned. It's really
It's really a shame. So that's another hurting area in our country. Yeah. That's huge with the teachers because they're impacting the youth, right? That's who's having a bigger impact on culture. You know, we have media that's impacting the culture. We have teachers that are impacting the culture. They're teachers getting more time with kids than their parents are most of the time. That's right. And, and they, I, I, I've known some teachers, they typically don't have
mental health tools in their tool belt. And the other thing is, what I'm also hearing is when we're talking about scalability, the scalability is so important because it is a cultural issue. Like where we're coming from is the culture and the culture is, we have a lot of mental health issues in America right now and that's just cultural.
And by doing something that's scalable and something that's done via peers, and it sounds like y 'all are working with six to eight people at a time, something can be done in a group and not just one -on -one. Because I've worked with people one -on -one and I've worked with people in a group. And a lot of times people want one -on -one because I think they think it's gonna be better than doing it in a group or they believe that, or they don't wanna share with too many people because that would be, that would make them.
feel too vulnerable and so they don't want to do that. But I found, and I do work with one -on -one on occasion, but only if like that's really what they want. But I've seen some of the best results done in a group. I agree with you. I agree with you. Absolutely. Cause one of the experiences in group that's so healing is recognizing the universality of your problem and your experience. It's like, you went through that too?
Are you think that way too? Or that's what you feel? You know, that's when that starts happening, it's a great relief for people. It's like, I'm not the only one. And so groups are really powerful that way. And of course, you know, you go back to in the military, you don't, you don't do a whole lot of things just by yourself. No. So that's where you function. And that's, that's what you know.
as a military person, you know, you've got people to hopefully have your back. Yeah. And so, yes, that's important. And like I was saying, when we were the first responders, we work with even larger groups there, you know, and what you hope for is kind of a ripple effect, you know, where those people start affecting other people.
And it's so, so interesting. I remember this one police officer one time, just one example, for example, just telling a story about how she went out on a call after one of the trainings that we did. And she encountered this woman who was really aggressive. And she said, you know, I usually, in the past, I would have put my hands on her.
Got the cuffs on her and she said, you know, this time when I went up to her, I said, what's the story? What's your story? Tell me what's going on with you. This woman just stopped and started talking and just started breaking down in tears and telling her the, you know, her misery. So it ended up focused on the misery rather than the anger that was coming out of it. She says, you know,
That would have gone a completely different way if I had done things the way I did things before I went through this program and learned how disclosure is really important. That you better hear people's stories. And when we tell each other our stories, remarkable things can start to happen. I'm in a training program right now. I've been in it for a little over a year and it's one of those that never end.
You know, you stick with it as long as you're still finding value in it. So I'm already slated for another year and it's done in a group setting. And one of the benefits is like the universality of what you were talking about, the universality of misery. But also when I see somebody move from one situation and then I see where they get to shift their energy into something new, something happens for me too. I get a piece of that.
that move, we call them movements. I get a piece of that movement when I move from anger to ownership. And if I witness somebody else in the room move from anger to ownership, then I get to see that for myself too. So I get to take something away that wasn't necessarily my story, but I see pieces of what's happening for them in my own self and I get the value out of that. And we also talk a lot about whatever you wanted to see the external world.
shift, you ship the internal world. Yes. It's exactly what you're talking about. A police officer goes out there. She has more internal peace. And then instead of creating more conflict, she spreads peace instead. And it's powerful work. I love it. It is. It is. And you know, that's the thing again about the I'm glad you mentioned the movements because group
work like this, when you have the right kind of focus, like this growth focus, isn't just on complaining and bitching about things and being a victim and all that stuff. You know, if you're helping this group with this kind of growth focus, it is about moving towards the future, moving towards something better by seeing the aspects of you.
that can be further nurtured and developed into something of either greater value in the future. So when that starts to happen in the group, it's inspiring, frankly, for the people as well. There's momentum. Yeah. There's momentum. I meet with my group every few months. We dive in for a week and I see it's not always the same people. There's a little bit of people coming and going.
But yeah, there's a momentum happening every time I show up. I'm like, we're not starting over every time we show up. We're all moving. We're all moving somewhere together. We have our individual movements, but then we have our group movement. And it's exciting to see. It is exciting. It is exciting. You know, when people talk about working with trauma and mental health and stuff like that, they often talk about things like
secondary trauma and vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue and burnout and stuff like that. But, you know, working within this kind of philosophy and in this way, I've never experienced any of that because I just love to see people change and people kind of get it and people making these movements through their lives in positive ways. I mean, it's...
It's not everybody, of course, it's not 100%, but so much more than what happens when you're just focused on relieving a few symptoms here and there and just leaving people with a life that isn't really fulfilling and satisfying and purposeful for them. That's not doing that much for them.
I think there's so much more that people can be and people can have in their lives. When you use this sort of perspective of growth. I've got, I've got one more, potentially controversial question for you. when people are on psychiatric medications, you know, how do you, how do you work with people who are on antidepressants or anxiety medications?
in these protocols? Is that something that you like to see people move away from? Or there's this stuff that y 'all work on work even when someone's on it? Like what's what's your perspective on that? Well, well, at Boulder Crest, I mean, we don't we don't ask people to get off psychiatric medications. And but we don't prescribe them either. We're not we're not prescribers. So we take kind of a neutral stance there and we leave people to.
determine along with their doctors what it is that they might need. And after they go through our programs, they might find that they don't need as much as they might've thought. But of course there are people for whom medications work very well and they seem to be quite necessary. And then there are people who find that the medications help them temporarily.
be able to address some of their issues where they were just too rattled and too confused to be able to think them through very well before. So they're sort of temporary methods of helping them be able to work through some difficulties. And so I hope that all those people
come to the point where they don't need those medications anymore. But if people are using medications and living well, that's fine. Maybe some people have a certain brain chemistry which makes that necessary for them. And that's understandable and that's true. But I think what's happened is that psychiatric medications are overprescribed because
of the scalability problem in mental health. You just have trouble finding the resources to help you really dive into what you need to do to change. And you end up taking a pill instead, or you end up taking a pill because you don't want to do the hard work, or you're afraid to talk about what the real story is of what you're going through, or you think it's the easy approach. There's all sorts of reasons that aren't really valid.
Unfortunately. Well said. Anything else you want to leave the veterans with before we go? Well, we're speaking here on Independence Day, so I want to let you all know that I appreciate all that you've done, that you've sacrificed. And I want you to realize what it is that you have going for you going forward so that you don't doubt yourself just because you're not
in military service anymore. You still have a service to perform for this country and for the people immediately around you and for yourself and living the best life that you can. So I hope you make use of all these resources. You know, this program, Mike, your organization, what you're trying to do and check out Boulder Crest Foundation too and see our website. Maybe you'll find that that
That could be valuable for you as well. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. So we're going to put the, the, the link to Boulder Crest and the show notes. Yeah. What's the name of the website in case someone just wants to type it in their phone right now? Very simple. It's bouldercrest .org. B -O -U -L -D -E -R -C -R -E -S -T .org. Excellent. Anything else you want to let anyone know about? Anything you want to promote or anything like that?
Well, we have some some books that you can read one book that boulder crust is published is called transformed by trauma and stories of military service members and their families interviews with them that kind of illustrate post traumatic growth. So that's a easily accessible way of hearing some stories and seeing what that all means in terms of post traumatic growth and
And then we have a post -traumatic growth workbook. It's published by New Harbinger. So you can use that yourself to kind of go through some of these steps that I've been talking about and educate yourself and maybe advance yourself through the growth process as well. So those are some resources as well. Excellent. Thank you for sharing. Really appreciate you taking time on Independence Day, meeting with me and get back to the celebration now.
Well, thank you, Mike. It seems perfectly appropriate. We've been meeting on this day, so I appreciate it. Yes, sir. Good luck in your work. Thank you. You too. Talk soon. Bye bye.
Mike Bledsoe (1:06:46)
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