Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Why being kind is the best investment.

Can kindness be a company’s competitive advantage? Bonnie Hayden Cheng says yes — and she’s got a business metric to prove it: return on kindness.
Cheng is a professor of management at City University of Hong Kong who researches how workplace behaviors affect interpersonal dynamics and well-being. In her book, The Return on Kindness, she explores how organizations that foster a culture of kindness see a measurable ROK — one marked by a more committed, more productive, and less expensive workforce. “Organizations that have this kind of culture around acts of civic virtue, helping, or showing support for people, those end up having employees that want to stay, are less likely to call in sick, are more committed, their performance goes up,” she says. “There's also benefits for the company in terms of higher productivity and efficiency, and even lower costs.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Cheng and host Matt Abrahams explore how to build cultures of kindness — from Cheng’s RISE framework for kind leadership to why candor and compassion go hand-in-hand. Whether you're leading a team or simply trying to show up better for your colleagues, Cheng offers a compelling case for measuring what really matters: the return on kindness.

Episode Reference Links:
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Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:30) - What Is Kind Leadership?
  • (04:32) - The RISE Framework
  • (07:07) - Everyone Can Be a Leader
  • (08:26) - Kindness vs. Niceness
  • (10:55) - Kindness and Candor
  • (12:27) - Communicating Kindness
  • (14:26) - The Power of Tone and Pause
  • (16:43) - Building a Culture of Kindness
  • (18:55) - Protecting Kindness in Organizations
  • (21:26) - The Final Three Questions
  • (24:07) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Bonnie Hayden Cheng
Professor | Chief Resilience Officer at Human at Work

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: In business and in
communication, we focus too much

on return on investment instead
of looking at return on kindness.

My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I look forward to speaking
with Bonnie Hayden Cheng.

Bonnie is a professor of management
at City University of Hong Kong.

Her research explores how workplace
behaviors affect interpersonal

dynamics and wellbeing.

She studies things such
as kindness and inclusion.

She's the author of the book,
"The Return On Kindness: How Kind

Leadership Wins Talent, Earns Loyalty,
and Builds Successful Companies".

Welcome, Bonnie.

I am super excited to have you here
and it's great to be in Hong Kong.

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Welcome to Hong Kong.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Matt Abrahams: Thanks.

Shall we get started?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: Your work focuses
on kindness and its impact on work.

Can you define what you mean by kindness
and share some of the value it can

provide to all of us in the workplace?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Absolutely.

So in the book, I actually focus
on kindness and leadership.

So I define kind leadership as
taking intentional action in

service to and for the betterment
of the people under your care.

And this touches on so many
different aspects that a leader

has authority over, right?

It could be about making a people's
day better through minor compliments or

feedback or just making small chitchat.

But it could also be major
changes that a leader takes on

to reduce administrative burdens.

It's also more of a worldview because
kindness isn't something that you

just do when you enter the workplace.

It's something that you really have
to take on in the way that you see the

world that embodies all of these values
around these words that you associate

with kindness, maybe generosity and
humility and compassion and empathy.

So it really is this way that you
interact with people, human to human.

Some of the value of kindness in
the workplace is what I call the

return on kindness or the ROK.

What's interesting about the ROK is
it's a non-linear equation, right?

Because kindness, multiplies.

It expands.

And so some of the research that shows
the benefits of kindness comes from

meta-analysis research that showed
over 3,500 business units and over

50,000 employees that organizations
that could be categorized as having

a kind culture, which is different
for every organization, right?

No matter how they define their values
around kindness organizations that have

this kind of culture around acts of civic
virtue or helping or showing support

for people, those are organizations
that end up having employees that want

to stay in the organization, right?

They're less likely to call in
sick, they're more committed,

their performance goes up.

But there's also benefits for the
company in terms of higher productivity

and efficiency and even lower costs.

Matt Abrahams: So it sounds to
me like kindness affects not

just the people, but the process.

And then the experience that we have,
and I think the measuring of return

on kindness is really powerful.

Because return on investment is
really looking at the outcome and

kindness, return on kindness, is
really looking at the experience,

and I think that's a wonderful shift.

I'm curious, when you try to put in place
and implement kindness as a practice,

kindness in your own work, what are some
of the things you have found really help?

Is it taking time to just
listen and be present?

Is it giving people extra autonomy?

What does kindness actually look like when
it's operationalized in organizations?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So for leaders, I
actually put together a framework around

how to help leaders rise to kindness.

And kind leadership.

And it's an easy framework to
remember because it spells out RISE.

So the R in rise is about role modeling.

So it really starts from the top, right?

It takes a leader who commits to being
kind and role modeling the behaviors

that bring that kindness forward.

It's easy to be kind when things
are going well in an organization,

but in times of stress, how are you
really enacting that kindness and

showing compassionate for your people?

The I is about intentional flexibility.

We all have different challenges at
different times, and at some point

it's gonna be the leader's challenge
who needs support from the people.

So how can we show
flexibility for our people?

And that's not just in, you know,
working time, but it's also in workload.

It's also in caring for
their mental health.

It's also in the flexibility
in structure of the workday.

It touches on so many different
aspects and there's so much leaders

can do there in terms of flexibility.

The S in rise is about supportive action.

Kindness is manifested in action.

So you could say that you're a kind
leader all you want, but if people aren't

seeing that, are you really a kind leader?

So how can you support your people?

Could it be emotional support?

Could it be instrumental support,
providing resources so that

they can get their job done?

A lot of times people get stuck
not because of capability issues,

but it's more about resource
or admin or red tape issues.

And then the E is about energy.

A leader's energy really
carries so much weight.

A leader can enter a room and
spread positive energy, or they

can spread negative energy, and
that's just gonna affect your

people for the rest of the day.

So how can you use your
energy to uplift your people?

Matt Abrahams: Thanks for
helping all of us rise to the

occasion and be kinder leaders.

It strikes me that each one of those
components in RISE helps also build

a psychologically safe environment.

An environment where people feel
comfortable speaking up, being heard,

and maybe even taking risks, which
we know from a tremendous amount

of research is all to the better.

Are there things that employees
can do in their interactions?

Clearly you've delineated what
a good leader can do, but if I'm

part of an organization that has
kindness at its core, what are my

responsibilities as an employee?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, so actually
the RISE model, it's interesting

because the way we define leaders is
not necessarily someone who holds a

position of authority, but leaders can be
anyone in an organization, and in fact,

every single person in an organization
should be showing leadership qualities.

So the RISE model absolutely applies
to everyone in an organization.

So whether it's a team leader or a
team member, thinking about how to

role model those behaviors that you
want your team to also implement.

It's about thinking about how to
be flexible with my team members in

workload and in the way that we interact.

It's about showing support and also
bringing that energy to the team.

So the RISE model really has
quite generalizable applications,

which I think makes it a lot
more of a practical application.

Matt Abrahams: It seems to me that it
puts a responsibility, a pleasurable

one often, to be supportive, to
take the time to care, and that

helps people feel connected.

But it is something that we need to
reinforce, and I think a leader can do

it, be it situational leader, authority
based leader, whatever, but also all of

us can take the time to recognize success.

So thank you for that.

I feel bad 'cause I think this
question might be unkind and that's

not what we're here for, but are
there times where being kind at

work can put you at a disadvantage?

I can imagine that being kind and
building this type of supportive

culture that you're talking
about can slow down efficiency.

It can cause people to be so focused
on the socio-emotional wellbeing

that things don't get done.

Is there a limit to kindness?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah,
that's an interesting question.

Going back to the definition of
kindness, we can also make a distinction

between kindness and niceness.

So if we think about leadership, right?

A nice leader is someone who does
things because it's easy, right?

You want to be friends with your people.

You want to be the nice boss.

You wanna be the cool boss, the fun boss.

You want to please the majority, and
that's going to ultimately cause you

to avoid making tough decisions or
avoid tough conversations because you

don't wanna hurt people's feelings.

Kindness is different.

Kindness really embodies
this aspect of toughness.

Because being a kind leader doesn't
mean that you are letting things slide.

So can a kind leader also hold
high expectations and high

standards of their people?

Absolutely.

Being a kind leader doesn't
negate all the things that need

to get done in an organization.

And in fact, when you have kindness
as the base or the foundation, it

actually allows leaders to hold these
tough conversations with their people

because their people trust that they
have their best interests at heart.

Matt Abrahams: I really like that
distinction between niceness and kindness.

When I was first a manager, when I
was an operator running organizations,

I so wanted people to like me that I
really went outta my way to be nice.

And I was just taken advantage of,
sometimes purposefully, sometimes not.

But I was miserable.

My boss called me over and her
words were, you can be kind, but you

don't let people walk all over you.

And so I lived that definitional
distinction that you just made.

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: It's almost like
a curvilinear relationship, right?

So if your kindness is swinging too far
to the point where you're getting to a

nice leadership position where people do
walk all over you, then you perhaps have

to swing back a little bit more to embody
the toughness that's part of the kindness.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

I think as a parent, we're often taught,
and you read about this notion of, it's

not really tough love, but you have to be
tough, you have to be firm, and from that

kindness can really have meaning, right?

If you're just nice, there's
no deep part of that.

I wanna dig a little bit more.

You've made the distinction
between being kind and being nice.

I have always thought of kindness
and candor is almost opposites.

Where you know, we are in an
interaction and I have something to say.

The polite thing to do, the
kind thing to do might not be as

candid as perhaps I should be.

As a leader, as a peer,
we have to give feedback.

We have to sometimes challenge people.

What advice and guidance do
you have about how to be candid

and direct, but also be kind?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So I think, again,
going back to the definition where kind

leadership is really embodied within
this aspect of toughness, I think the

candor comes into play because being a
kind leader doesn't mean that you're not

giving honest and direct feedback because
that's actually something that can be

constructive and valuable for your people.

And I think authenticity
really plays a key role here.

That, as well as intentionality.

If a leader is really approaching these
conversations with positive intent to,

the easy thing to do would be to ignore
or to not have these conversations.

I have better things to do with my time,
but to really take that time and put into

development with your people, and the way
that you say it, of course, matters, the

framing, but if you're telling people with
kindness as the underlying through point,

I think that message is better received.

Matt Abrahams: I wanna come back
to the framing and the actual

communication 'cause as you know,
and everybody listening knows,

that's really important to me.

But I wanna really emphasize that point,
that being kind is being truthful and

being kind is being candid because you are
trying to help the person, or the team,

or the company be the best that it can be.

And one of those charges is to,
in a kind way, be very direct,

and I appreciate that distinction.

Let's talk a little bit about
the communication of kindness.

Are there things, frameworks, approaches
that you have seen in your research

or your own personal experience that
helps people communicate kindly?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I think one thing
for leaders to do is around active

listening, but for some individuals,
I think maybe for newer generations

it's an abstract concept because
they grew up on their phones and so

they haven't had that practice of
learning social communication skills.

So I actually ran this with my
students, an active listening exercise.

They only had to do it for three
minutes, where they engage with an

interaction partner, and they had to
show that they are actively listening.

And it completely surprised them that
it's not a passive activity, right?

So active listening is really about
asking questions, showing that you

are attentive through your nonverbals.

It's about empathizing, it's about
clarifying your assumptions or

even repeating back what you hear.

And so the feedback I was getting
from the students was, it was really

difficult, especially if you're, you
know, listening to something that

you're not particularly interested in.

But when we bring that back to the
workplace and think about leaders,

there's a lot that they can do in terms
of mindful connection between them

and their individual team members.

Just being there, being in the moment
and being present with your conversation

partner, really shows, I think, the
intent around, I'm here with you now.

You have my attention.

Let's talk about what's bothering you,
and let's talk about how I can help.

Matt Abrahams: There's a directness to
the kind communication you're talking

about that I think is really important.

I think a lot of people think
kind communication is softer or

is more ambiguous, and in fact,
what I hear you saying, is that

there's a directness to it.

Get the bottom line up
there, make it clear.

But what I really find interesting is
when I asked you, are there things that

we can do to communicate better, the
very first thing you said is listening.

And it strikes me that empathy, kindness,
being present are really important, and

I'm curious to get your thought on this.

What really struck me as you were
speaking is that tone matters, how

you say it, the tone you inflect.

I can say something very sternly,
very directly, that comes from a

place of kindness and compassion.

But if I say it in a tone that
mirrors that value, I think

it goes down much better.

What do you think about the
role of tone in kindness?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I'm
glad you brought that up.

Super important.

And I think feedback about your tone
being something that's negative or

comes across as negative and isn't
conveying kind of your positive intent,

it's something we can practice, right?

Just like we practice giving speeches
and presentations, and tone could

be something that we really work on.

Just like we can work on the
speed, the framing, and the

messaging of our communication.

Matt Abrahams: There's a really
interesting technique we teach and

it has a lot of research on it.

It comes from the world of acting, which
is really, if you think to yourself

about the tone and the emotion you want
to have, by reflecting on an experience

that you've had where that was present,
and you recall that before you have

a significant communication, you're
much more likely to embody that tone.

So if I am going to give you some
constructive feedback, but I wanna

come from a place of kindness, I
might remind myself of a time where

somebody did that to me or I did that
to them, and that puts me in that mode.

Tone is one of those things that
when we're stressed, when we're

under pressure, goes out the window.

So really focusing on
it, I think makes sense.

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, exactly.

Just to add to that.

Being able to pause if you are
really heated up or something

is really triggering you.

I think a lot of times people
feel the pressure to fill in

these gaps or these silences, and
so they speak without thinking.

And again, that goes back to the
listening, why listening is the probably

most important skill for a leader.

But don't be afraid to pause, right?

Or say, I need a minute.

I just need to process.

I need to think about this.

Let me get back to you.

Matt Abrahams: I wanna go back to
building culture of kindness, and you

shared a lot of what the attributes are.

I'm curious to get your thoughts
about the actual building of it.

It seems to me that it starts before
somebody actually gets employed.

It's part of the interview process.

You're talking about it, you're
assessing it, you're demonstrating it.

Are there other ways that people
can go about building a culture of

kindness, and then I'm gonna add a
maybe even more challenging issue.

How do you transition into
a culture of kindness when

perhaps you're not part of one?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So in the
book, I actually unpack a four step

process to building kind cultures.

Cultures have to be designed
intentionally from the top, otherwise

it's never going to trickle down.

It's never gonna scale
across the organization.

So it's about starting
with a values refresh.

Whatever your company's values are,
where it's written on the website or

written on company walls, how are you
bringing that kindness forward in action.

If people aren't seeing kindness
or a related word in action every

day, especially from leaders,
they're never gonna believe

that's one of our culture words.

Matt Abrahams: So it's not just
a poster that says be kind.

It's the action.

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Exactly.

And then you mentioned interviews.

This should be something that
the interviewer is screaming

from the rooftops, right?

That this is our culture.

We don't tolerate unkindness.

And then the storytelling aspect
of it, it's not just saying that

we have a culture of kindness, but
really shining examples of how that

kindness has been manifested through
different avenues, different channels.

Matt Abrahams: That's really powerful.

Were there other steps in that process?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: One other one,
which is really actioning kindness.

So again, from the top, how are you
building kindness into your metrics?

How are you making sure
that kindness is protected?

A positive kind culture should
be protected at all costs.

So how are you dealing with those
unkind high performers, right?

The way that companies deal with
these types of individuals speaks

volumes about what they prioritize.

And unfortunately, as we see, too many
organizations value one over the other.

Matt Abrahams: That notion of protecting
kindness is one that stands out to me.

What are some ways you have seen or you
advise that people protect kindness?

I can imagine, I'm a big fan and I
learned this from my kids' kindergarten

teachers, rewarding the positive.

So one way to protect it is to really
highlight and reward acts of kindness, but

what are some ways to protect kindness?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, so that's one.

Rewarding kindness is probably the
easy one, but you need consistency.

And when you think about how
kindness starts from the top and

it really needs to be leader led,
how is your company thinking about,

for example, succession planning?

Are you targeting individuals that
embody kindness and would bring that

to life in the succession plan, or are
you really prioritizing individuals who

are maybe high performers, but unkind.

That signals a lot to the organization.

Matt Abrahams: I was very fortunate
to interview world famous women's

basketball coach, Tara VanDerveer.

She's emeritus at Stanford now, and
she talked about one of the things

that was really important to her in
her teams was not the number of point

scores or the number of wins won, but
the kindness that the teammates had

towards each other and towards their
opponents and towards the referees.

And taking that and showing it and
really supporting and protecting

it was really important to her.

And I like that you're emphasizing that.

So before we end, I like to
ask everybody three questions.

One I make up just for you, and two I've
been asking everybody for a long time.

Are you up for that?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Sure.

Matt Abrahams: So you wrote
this great book on kindness.

What do you hope is the key
takeaway people have from the book?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I would say
the key takeaway would be to inspire

kindness, to inspire a movement around
kindness, and to inspire communities

where people prioritize kindness
as the number one important thing.

And on a day-to-day basis, that
could be something also that

people take away with them.

It's when you wake up every day and
you are dreading going to work, how

can you make that experience a little
bit more positive for your people?

Kindness also reciprocates.

It boomerangs back to you, and so
when you are showing that kindness,

it will come back to you as well.

Matt Abrahams: I love this
idea of a kindness boomerang.

It comes right back to you.

And again, emphasizing that
kindness is a way of being.

It's not just that your company sets up
volunteer opportunities in the community,

which is absolutely important, but
it's the kindness that we show each

other in the day-to-day interaction.

So question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: There's too
many to name here, but I will say

that some qualities of communicators
that I admire is storytelling.

Someone who's able to really
bring the picture to life, make

something very vivid, and convey
a message through a story.

I think it's so powerful, but that
doesn't mean that we all have to

be fantastic storytellers, but I
think underlying storytelling is

really this notion of authenticity.

So authentic communicators, they
don't have to be perfect storytellers.

They don't have to be perfect
in their speech, but someone who

really speaks from the heart, I
think that's quite transformative.

Matt Abrahams: I'm not surprised that
somebody who studies kindness would

be talking about speaking from the
heart, being authentic, being able

to connect to people through story.

Thank you.

Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

successful communication recipe?

Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I would
say curiosity, assuming

positive intent, and trust.

Matt Abrahams: Trust, assuming
positive intent, and curiosity.

Three really powerful ingredients,
and I like this idea of

assuming positive intent.

A lot of us set up acrimony, challenge,
conflict because we assume the other

person doesn't have that good intent.

Well, I appreciate you sharing good
intent with all of us and challenging us

all to rise to the occasion of kindness.

And really helping us change
the metrics for how we work.

It's about return on kindness,
not just return on investment.

Bonnie, thank you so much for
joining me here in Hong Kong

and for sharing your wisdom.

Bonnie Hayden Cheng:
Thank you for having me.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about how to establish
a productive work culture, please

listen to episode 93 with Celine Teoh
and episode 132 with Amy Edmondson.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

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