Ditching Hourly

Health coach Jihane Farrell joined me to talk about how to price "quality of life" and other intangible and highly subjective client outcomes.

Show Notes

Health coach Jihane Farrell joined me to talk about how to price "quality of life" and other intangible and highly subjective client outcomes.

Jihane's email address:


What is Ditching Hourly?

My name is Jonathan Stark and Iā€™m on a mission to rid the earth of hourly billing. I hope that Ditching Hourly will help achieve this, one listener at a time šŸ™‚

[00:00:00] Jonathan: Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today. I am joined by Jihane Farrell. Jihane, welcome to the show.

[00:00:07] Jihane: Hi Jonathan. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:10] Jonathan: I'm glad you could join me!

[00:00:12] So folks, this is going to be a fun conversation today. And it's because Jihane is way outside of the software development world and even the B2B services world. Jihane, could you tell people a little bit about who you are and what you do.

[00:00:30] Jihane: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm just starting my business as a health coach. I, to say that I help people adding meaningful years to their lives. My background is in biology. I used to work in research. I have over a decade of experience in research and development, and I ended up with a burnout which had me reconsider kind of everything.

[00:01:02] I really had to work on self care and change a lot of things in my life. I changed my diet. I started a new habit and this was like a revelation for me and turn on a switch where I realized, wow. Eating well, can do so much for you. Taking care of yourself is makes a world of a difference.

[00:01:26] I was more productive had all of my cognitive skills that I could like leverage, like never before it really changed things for me in a big way. And that made me interested in learning learning more about bringing those sort of ideas and habits to other people. I knew probably people know that it's good for you to eat well, it's better for you.

[00:01:57] If you don't smoke, you should probably exercise. A few times a week, but between knowing and doing there's a gap and often people need a little help to bridge that gap. And that's what a coach does a health coach does. I decided to go back to school and learn more about what helps people change?

[00:02:22] What can get them started? What can get them motivated to create the changes in your lives that would really well change the game for them too. So I went back to school for that and I am trained and I'm not certified yet. I'm working on that. I graduated from my program in. And I started my business right away.

[00:02:49] I've been really interested in entrepreneurship for years now. So I had a few building blocks that I was able to create very early on. And I work with people one-on-one, I have conversations in which we discuss the kind of change that you're considering. And I apply I would see the tool set in those conversations in order to help them move the needle towards an outcome that they themselves determined as what they want for their lives.

[00:03:27] Sorry. I'm now forgetting what else you asked me.

[00:03:33] Jonathan: Oh, no, that's a great start. That's fabulous. So can you tell me more about you just pretty much just started like what three months ago.

[00:03:44] Jihane: That's Right.

[00:03:45] Jonathan: So do you even have clients yet? If you do, where did they come from?

[00:03:51] Jihane: Yeah. I've worked with a few people already. I truly started with working with clients one-on-one in January. So a little earlier, before my graduating from my training program. So where they're coming from most of them came from referral. So friends of friends or friends and family things like that.

[00:04:15] Some of them were people that I used to be around like previous not directly coworkers, but people were like working in the same space as I was. So things like that I reconnected with some people haven't been in touch with in a while. And then, yeah. So referral mostly.

[00:04:37] And I'm also coaching in groups. So I could groups of people, and this has been through a couple of different avenues. I have been contracted by a company I'm here in Canada. I've been contracting by a company that's doing corporate wellness and I've been coaching people in a group around mindfulness on a regular basis for free for three months.

[00:05:06] And I also started the mentorship programs. So people who graduated with me who were traveling with finding a direction for how to create their business, where to start. So I'd put a mentorship program together and I have enrolled a few people. We're now finishing that and I'm hoping to relaunch this program in October and find more clients for it.

[00:05:34] Jonathan: Go a little deeper on that. You're mentoring them on how to start your kind of business or any kind of business.

[00:05:40] Jihane: Their can of business. I've called a mentorship program true to you because we go through a series of manual that helps them understand themselves better really take stock of what they're good at their talents the kind of communities they're already part of. And what's the ideal day for them.

[00:06:05] What's the best schedule for their life could look like. So they can create a business that is designed on their lifestyle, who they are, so they can keep centrally leading their career. So that's not a stretch, but it's something fun and sustainable.

[00:06:25] Jonathan: Okay. And is there much overlap between that business and what you've been talking about with your one-on-one and the sort of group stuff that you've you're doing for in plays? Do you feel like it's very similar or is there just a little bit of overlap or really not much overlap?

[00:06:42] Jihane: It's very similar in the sense that coaching is at the heart of it. So we have calls altogether where I apply my coaching skills. It's different in the sense that in that program, I have been nurturing content and I wouldn't call it education per se. A lot of it is more like prompt to help them journal and little exercises for self discovery and self development.

[00:07:11] But those are the kinds of things that we do in coaching. Anyways. As just that I in the program, I packaged that if you will And I also realized that as something that I really enjoy doing so I love coaching. I love having conversations, whether it's one-on-one or creating a group space, but I also really enjoy putting my, either my perspective, my expertise, my experience in, in some sort of content that people can consume and then digest and reflect on.

[00:07:54] Jonathan: Interesting. Okay. So the but you wouldn't call it a health coaching.

[00:08:01] Jihane: Yeah, no, that's yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. It is more like business coaching. Yeah.

[00:08:08] Jonathan: Okay.

[00:08:10] So leverage is the same skill sets, but it's toward a different end. So let's go into that a little bit. What, how long has the program? It sounded like it had a term and an end date.

[00:08:20] Jihane: Yeah, absolutely. So this was the first time I run it and it was four and a half month. And it's made of six modules. As I'm looking to relaunch, I think I will just simply make it one module per month with a couple of calls per module and a good more, I would say formal exercises and suggestion for like weekly experiments to help people have a little bit more accountability.

[00:08:59] Jonathan: And how many people did you see went through this first program?

[00:09:01] Jihane: Is it seven?

[00:09:03] Jonathan: And those people just came from word of mouth and so forth.

[00:09:06] Jihane: Those people are people that I have created relationships with while I was training as a health coach, we are all in the same training. And I think part of the reason I started this is it really just came organically. Being part of this program was an amazing experience for me and the community was definitely one of my favorite aspect of it.

[00:09:34] Outside of the learning, I created some really great relationships. And because we're all about growth. I think this just came natural. Yes. The next step in growing together. So I have this community and as towards the end of the training program, there's this feeling that we were all having to transition to the professional world, getting out of the community where we felt really safe where we all excited about coaching.

[00:10:08] All of the sudden we're out in the world and people in general don't really know about health. The term health coach, I personally find, I don't find that it necessarily described what I do very accurately. And I feel like it triggers a lot of how would you say people have like ideas and you think about life coaching and it's loaded.

[00:10:36] So anyways, we were transitioning out of this kind of safe community out in the world. We had tons of the material that the training gave us around marketing and creating your website and start a newsletter

[00:10:53] Content market. And. The stuff, which I think we all know the value of, but I really sensed from talking with the people in my community that there's a lot of confusion.

[00:11:05] People didn't know where to start. They felt overwhelmed with all the stuff. And so I saw a need and I try to bring what I could to answer that need. I started my newsletter talking to them because this was a community I had access to. I'm going to have to do that open one of those account to do meal marketing.

[00:11:35] And I started emailing people and I know them. It was easy for me to find a natural voice and talking to them and I knew what they were going through. And yeah, that just span out of the training program in a way that was very organic.

[00:11:54] Jonathan: Nice. Okay.

[00:11:55] And it feels you already mentioned that you're going to modify it the next time. So you are planning to run it again. Are you thinking, where do you think this next cohort would come from? Would would it be something that you you know, word of mouth for people who went through the training program that you first went through and then they could graduate into this and it could just be a bolt on thing that informally that, that people are like, oh, if if you graduate from this program and you feel overwhelmed, you should maybe go try true to you.

[00:12:26] And that will At this moment I, some people when I started a program have expressed interest, but the timing wasn't good for them, they said, oh, summer, super easy. I can't make it. So I have a few people like that whom I want to ask again, if they would be interested in joining There are other students, a part of this training program with whom I've created great relationships.

[00:12:58] Jihane: And so I'm in the process of scheduling chats with them to see if that would be a good fit. Is that is the program actually doing something for you that you can meet right now. Basically I'm tapping into those relationships that I already had and this community but I would really like to take it to a place where it's like a stream of people graduating from this program and specifically from that program that I graduated from yeah, I can see that as being a reliable force of of clients.

[00:13:41] just a matter of getting in touch with those people who are signing up after me And the program is training two cohorts per year. And it's about, I think around 300 people every year.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:14:00] Jonathan: geez.

[00:14:01] Jihane: It's a nice niche

[00:14:02] Jonathan: yeah, it sure is.

[00:14:04] Jihane: And it's very specific to like, I'm really talking to a certain kind of people, right?

[00:14:10] It's not just health coach in general. It's people who are graduating from this program.

[00:14:14] And I know the program. I knew what people face when you go through it. So that makes it a lot easier for me to cater that to them.

[00:14:27] Jonathan: Yeah,

[00:14:27] This is a great example for the listener, this is a great example of getting super duper niche down on a very particular. Buyer a bit particular kind of audience member or target market or ideal buyer. And when you do that as just like you're describing, when you do that, it makes it so much easier to help them because the empathy is through the roof.

[00:14:51] You know what, you've they're going through they're going to be overwhelmed with all this stuff and they could use a an on-ramp into taking all this information and putting it into practice that apparently the program doesn't provide or at least right now.

[00:15:08] Jihane: And also people who go through this program, everybody says the community aspect, like the relationships that you get to create are just wonderful. And when the programs. And you don't have those calls anymore. You don't see people on zoom anymore. You don't get together. There's no like opportunity to do that unless you yourself create that opportunity, which is something that I've been doing with the program, but also outside the program.

[00:15:36] So for example, in a couple of weeks, I'm going to host a webinar around elevator pitch because we all have trouble talking about what we do. And so I'm going to open this space so we can all practice together. So I'm creating opportunities for people to still hang out, still have support, still find the community aspect outside of the program now that we have graduated and that's a value Oh

[00:16:00] the people.

[00:16:01] Yeah. And do you have any, if you don't mind, I want to also mention that in that program we do have a homo track around market. And we have someone teaching us that he's got some really a great understanding of how marketing and content marketing works and how to make it evergreen.

[00:16:22] And so there's a lot around that. And this cat really he advocates for us to start a website on WordPress. And he's very specific about the way your website should be laid out. It's optimized for readability. It's optimized for your people like scanning through really quickly. And because your audience is very much in that space.

[00:16:49] I would not. I would just like to say that there's a niche there with those 300 people who graduate from this program every year, who would be just happy to buy a WordPress template that does exactly what this guy says. It should.

[00:17:06] There's like an incredible opportunity for a niche there. If someone is interested in creating a WordPress template and I would be happy to get in touch with them, if that was the case.

[00:17:17] Jonathan: So, at the end, we'll give your contact information. So do so dear listener, do you hear that? If you know how to make a WordPress template, here's a great little niche market for you,

[00:17:26] Jihane: Yeah. And if you like sell that $300 per person, times the hundreds of people who graduate, they're like thousands of dollars that go into your pocket and mistake almost passive because once you created a template and you just sell it,

[00:17:39] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:17:40] It's incredible. I that's a fabulous idea. I'm glad you brought that up. It's there's an, and multiply this by a million. There are so many of these little, it's almost smaller than a niche. It's this little title pool of if you think of like the ocean and then like being a big fish in a small pond, this is almost like a tidal pool where you would take your skill as a WordPress developer and just find out from someone like what the recommendations are for this website.

[00:18:09] And then just, it just taking no time to build it. And I ended up things always take longer than you think they're going to but you're right. It would almost be passive income by guests, there'd be some, maybe some customer support or feature, whatever wow. That's a, it's a great idea.

[00:18:27] It's really

[00:18:27] Jihane: yeah. So yeah, there's money to be made there. So get in touch with me. I'd be happy to discuss that.

[00:18:32] Jonathan: Excellent. Okay, So

[00:18:36] Jihane: Let me, sorry, Jones. And so this is really, that's like the direction of I've gone in, because this just came easily. To me, this was organic. I wanted to help this community of people. I thought I had some tools and just, I just started putting it together and I've run with it. It's been a success that people were part of the programmer ship.

[00:18:57] You're happy. So now I need to enroll again, but outside of this like you said, it's business coaching but ultimately that's not necessarily the candidate. I don't know, I'm thinking as a health coach, I would want to be closer to health. And because I have experienced in research, I did research around aging for a few years and I'm really into the science of aging longevity, the sort of things.

[00:19:29] And that's where I see myself going when it comes to train for, in clients to coach around health.

[00:19:37] But with that it's a little harder for me to find people like I don't have the community, I'm not part of that community as much. And and I think maybe that's where value pricing.

[00:19:53] Jonathan: Yes, I think so. Let's dive into that. You also mentioned something in your original email about sugar that I want to talk about too. Yeah. And the but to just put a bow on or wrap up this the true to you program, what w maybe you didn't know this quite exactly when you started, but what, when you launch it again, based on the results that you got, what would your promise be to the next group of people?

[00:20:17] So what is the outcome, or what are the things that you can pretty much feel confident, insuring that they should expect that they.

[00:20:24] Jihane: So that's so cool. Because when I first started with that, I had an idea where the program could do, and now that I'm getting feedback from the people who are done, it's not exactly what I was expecting.

[00:20:36] Jonathan: that's pretty common.

[00:20:37] Jihane: Yeah. That's but it's still so much fun and it's so great to see what people actually got from this.

[00:20:42] I've got some very clear keywords because I also created some surveys in order to get feedback. In the mid point and also now at the end. And so people report better understanding of themselves more confidence. It feel like they have a direction before they were lost, confused, overwhelmed that didn't really know where to start.

[00:21:10] Now. They have a better idea of where to start and how to apply the knowledge that they had. They report a lot of inspiration ideas that they got from my content. And a few action steps. And I think I might do that relay on that a little more heavily when I relaunch a program. So that people are not just like reflecting, they're also doing so that at the end, they have more clear wins, right?

[00:21:47] At the moment, I was also trying to gauge if they were able to save money, received time and money, not so much yet. And I think that's because I didn't put too many action steps in there, but around time, people have got a lot of value because I had a whole module around managing your time and aligning your schedule on your own personal, like peak time of the day and help them free themselves from the idea that you should do a schedule like a nine to five or something imposed by your clients, but you should do a schedule that is.

[00:22:27] In line with, when are you most productive? When are you at your best for your coaching? The sort of things. Yeah. And in terms of outcomes and value deserve things. And also it sounds like one of the favorite parts that people enjoying the program was the support being in community again.

[00:22:50] Yeah.

[00:22:50] Jonathan: Okay. Yeah. Great. list. So direction, clarity, support, confidence practical application of theory and clear action items, steps they can take. So is there anything that's amazing. I'm wondering if there are also any tangible things, like by the end of this, you will have your website set up by the end of this.

[00:23:09] You will have your mailing list set up. Is there anything like that or is it more,

[00:23:14] Jihane: I did not have that built in but I'd be interested to have one of those possibly.

[00:23:21] Jonathan: Maybe if one of our listeners build you a WordPress plugin, you can say

[00:23:26] Jihane: Exactly. There you go.

[00:23:27] Jonathan: Or a theme. Cool. Okay. Also one last thing before we move on, do you remember how much the, not your program, but the program that, that that you went through, do you remember how much that costs.

[00:23:42] Jihane: Oh yeah. So it's between 10,000 and 12,000 nos.

[00:23:47] Jonathan: Okay. And then did you anchor your price for the program as a fraction of that or?

[00:23:54] Jihane: No. At the time when I started, I had absolutely no idea how to price it. I wanted to basically make sure that running it would not cost me money. So I set a very low price and you'll come back now. Also like working for the program, I experienced some frustration. I was like, oh my God, I'm putting so much work into it.

[00:24:16] And I'm not getting paid for that. So like part of it was a work of law it was like because I have this relationship with the people that I'm coaching like part of it was just creating value for them. And they were like better tester for me.

[00:24:35] Jonathan: Yeah. Proof of concept.

[00:24:37] Jihane: Yeah, I didn't, I wasn't able to like really price it the way it should be and not I'm relaunching the places that I have in mind or a set around really just the hours of work that I'd put in to create the content.

[00:24:55] So not so much on the value yet.

[00:24:59] Jonathan: Okay, so that's good. So the there's a point that I think is going to come up, might as well bring it up now, which is that there's I know in your original email you were like I want to start things off, with value pricing and not selling my time. But there are other options besides value based pricing and some of the things that you've described, certainly with the program are not net value pricing, as long as you price something versus billing pricing versus billing, two different things.

[00:25:31] As long as you're pricing stuff I'm pretty happy because you can, once you're not selling an hour oh, pay me by the hour because there's nothing you can do to create leverage if you're selling your hours because you can't deliver an hour faster than an hour, there's no way to do it.

[00:25:49] So if you say, so this program for, I don't care how you pick the price, although ultimately it needs to cost less than it is worth in the mind of someone who has not yet gone through it. So the sort of trick there is for people to perceive a benefit. So that you need to make some kind of offer on the sales page for the website that describes the promise.

[00:26:19] Here's what you can expect. Here's the offer and the people who are reading that page need to find that they need to believe that is a credible offer. So once they believe it's a credible offer, then they say, okay, I trust that I will probably, there's a high likelihood that I'll get an increase in clarity and I'll get support and I'll have a direction they'll believe that from testimonials and maybe just knowing you or watching a video view And just trusting you.

[00:26:45] Jihane: And knowing the students who went through it too.

[00:26:48] Jonathan: Yes, absolutely. yeah, We're word of mouth is the gold standard here. So then once they believe that the offer is credible and that you can deliver the goods so to speak, then they'll decide in their mind if the price is lower than what the goods, air quote. Our worth. And so everything almost virtually I guess everything at this stage that you delivered was intangible very intangible.

[00:27:11] It was like feelings. It was all in people's heads, more or less. It wasn't like, it wasn't even like a digital good. Yeah.

[00:27:19] so at some point people need to say Yeah.

[00:27:23] I feel super overwhelmed. I really feel disconnected from that community that I was just in and it would be it. And when I look at something that costs $1,500 or $3,000 or $500, and I see that price tag, I immediately, I'm going to have a reaction, a gut reaction to whether or not that seems worth it, which is to say the price is lower than the value of the person reading.

[00:27:49] So you can you could, if you haven't already, you could reach out to your folks and say, Hey I'm going to be running this again. Do you think it would be fair to charge $3,000?

[00:28:01] Jihane: Yeah, I actually those who are graduating or finishing the program this was part of my feedback survey. And I asked him, he I'm thinking about sewing, this option that you went through. I sold $847 or 147, $7 per month. Would you pay that now that you've gone through it? And I got some really valuable feedback.

[00:28:27] People said, yes, if there was more of X or more of Y and that's what I'm looking into integrating for the next. I'm going to use those bags. We asked for more calls. So for that support piece, which is really one of the biggest part of the value and a bit more, they called it like exercises or assignments.

[00:28:53] And that's what I call the action steps when we first discussed that. So yeah. There's things you said, oh, I would pay more if there was this or that I'm adding this or that. So the value would align with the content.

[00:29:09] Jonathan: Excellent. There's and the one other thing, before we move on, if there's another thing that you can do, that's the flip side of that, which is asking if there's anything that they didn't particularly value. Wasn't that important if it, yeah. And then, because you could possibly take something out that was a lot of work for you, but no one really cared about.

[00:29:27] Jihane: Yeah. I didn't think of that as great.

[00:29:29] Jonathan: yeah.

[00:29:29] So that's how you could optimize it. And then once you start selling it at the 800 plus and you get more testimonials And you can just, there's there's nothing that says you have to keep it at that price forever. So if you're getting better at delivering it and you're optimizing it and

[00:29:46] Jihane: And there's more and more evidence. Oh, also one of my thoughts is that I, I am convinced that the people who are going through this program will see the value of it in one year from now. And two years from now in five years from now, because of the principles that I'm really helping people like building systems and having foundations for their business.

[00:30:10] It's my belief that in the first year or two, if you can work towards it systems and slowly removed yourself from those systems, that's like the key to success. And that's the key to have the Morphe on your life. Not spend like forever at work, nine to five, et cetera. Systems are one of seven ways to create business leverage. So yeah.

[00:30:37] Jonathan: A hundred percent.

[00:30:38] Jihane: Yeah. So I think through the program they're doing that, it's just, yeah, I think it's just too early to see. So I would like to prove those people in a year from now to see, Hey if you look at your current situation, like how much of, what you have how much did the program contribute to that?

[00:30:58] And in which way, and I get the feeling that this the value might grow as we go on.

[00:31:06] Jonathan: I think you're right. Yeah. You could almost get in a year or three years, get upgraded testimonials and oh my, my first cohort is now all retired on the beach, drinking margaritas or whatever.

[00:31:20] Ah, cool. Okay. Enough of your side project,

[00:31:27] Jihane: right.

[00:31:28] Jonathan: it sounds like you've got that all dialed in, which is fabulous.

[00:31:31] So let's get back to the, let's get back to the health coach angle and you, I think you mentioned too, I thought you were going to mention three, but maybe I'm wrong. So you what are the offerings that you currently have? It sounds like you mentioned one-on-one and you mentioned like sort of corporate group training, or I'm not sure what you would call it.

[00:31:52] So what are the different offerings that you have.

[00:31:55] Jihane: So I haven't built any like structured offering around longevity yet. I have ideas. But actually that's also something I've been thinking about knowing that we're going to be on this call today. I've been listening to some of your content. And I think what resonates with me is this idea of recurring income.

[00:32:19] I don't really want to spend my time every couple of months going through that wave of losing clients, having to find you. So if I can find a system that create some recurring income, and I feel like in the laundry space, there's definitely a way to do that. In the sense that takes time to apply those lifestyle changes that activate your longevity, genes and program and your biology and it's it has to do with changing your diet exercising.

[00:32:56] And when I say changing the diet, it goes all the way to having periods of fasting, which is something I'm really interested in helping people with. And so I've been playing with different ideas. I was thinking about having maybe a program where it's all about fasting, having a program where it's all about.

[00:33:16] Oh, and I mentioned in my email at the moment I'm trying to help. Trying to find people were having unhealthy relationship with sugar. So people were having a few treats per day and the, they are aware that impacts their ability to think and focus. And they're not really performing their energy is being like completely crushed because of the sugar.

[00:33:44] And I've had great success with a client and I think I've uncovered. Some key steps, like key. It has to do a lot with shifts in mindset, the way you look at trigger and by coaching this person through that that totally changed the game for them. And I was, I am trying to offer that into a coaching program at the moment someone approached me who did think that they have a problem with sugar they wanna address.

[00:34:18] And I did craft a proposal based on the template that you provide and said those three options, the three set points. And that person said no, because that was too expensive.

[00:34:32] Jonathan: Yeah,

[00:34:33] so yeah

[00:34:33] You're, it's this kind of an offering is really, there's a really tricky piece to it, which is that the payoff is way in the future. So the real ultimate payoff is way in the future. It's what's the joke everybody knows how to be a billionaire and have washboard abs, but almost nobody does it.

[00:34:58] It's not like a mystery. So how come nobody does it? That's the hardest. It's it's not complex. It's not it's hard. It's just hard to make yourself do it because this candy bar tastes great right now. And in the future the bad feeling th the being out of shape or whatever way in the future, the crash might come in an hour or two hours.

[00:35:29] So you need to find someone in your situation needs to find an instantaneous reward, that the habit. Delivers and that the person gets addicted to. There's a great book called atomic habits by James clear that, that talks about this quite a bit. And and creating. And one of the things he talks about is creating systems.

[00:35:52] Oh, he just talks about it a lot. And this is definitely true in my experience where, you know you set a goal, but the goal doesn't motivate you. Like the goal is to live longer or have washboard abs or lose 50 pounds or whatever the goal is, or make a million dollars.

[00:36:07] Jihane: There needs to be something that they create now for them.

[00:36:11] Jonathan: right. You need to create a system that's going to achieve that in the system needs to be its own reward. It needs to reward you daily. Somehow it needs to give you a dopamine hit every day, somehow. And you streaks is one way to do that. Habit. Stacking is another way to do that. People can, the book is fabulous.

[00:36:26] Like literally everyone should read this book. And there were other Charles doing as a habits book, but I really liked the James clear book. And Okay.

[00:36:36] There's a similar thing. And I want to tie this into something that the audience is probably very familiar with. Most of the people in the audience sell to businesses, not to, to what I would say is direct to consumer you're a, B-to-C in the health coach space.

[00:36:52] You're like B to C. When you're doing one-on-one stuff, at least that's what you're talking about it. And most of the folks listening, probably sell services to companies where, who knows they're doing photography or they're writing code, or they're building landing pages or writing copy or white papers and these sorts of things.

[00:37:12] Jihane: Okay.

[00:37:13] Jonathan: And most of them, almost all of them, unless you're directly associated with sales or you're like you're working on e-commerce shopping carts. Almost everybody listening is upstream from. The desired outcome, the business's desired outcome for engaging you, which is to say, if you just imagine a river and you're like way upstream and you put a giant rubber duck in the ocean.

[00:37:39] It's in the water and you'd throw this giant rubber duck. And the client is hoping the rubber dock is going to reach some destination way farther downstream, but you build the rubber duck and they're like, we need a giant rubber duck. So you build it for them. And if they, if it makes it to the end of the river, if it makes it up to the ocean, they get a million dollars.

[00:38:02] So you got your rubber duck, you put it in the river and you've lost control of it. Like a million things could happen to it farther down. They could mess around with it and it could pop and sink or something random could happen. There could be a storm and it'd just blow it right out of the river.

[00:38:19] So you can't guarantee the million dollars, but you can contribute to it by creating the rubber duck in the first place. Which is why, when we talk about value pricing on a project, which is why the prices that you would put in your proposal start at only 10% of the perceived value on the client's end.

[00:38:38] Cause you're you almost never. Can you just be like, Hey give me $10,000 and I'll give you 20,000. It's almost impossible for anyone listening to this, to that. If you were like a sales person, you were going to go out and just work on commission and you were like a Rainmaker and you were great at it.

[00:38:54] That's probably the one exception, but most people, if you're doing branding, it's way upstream even coding is really upstream depending on what kinds of things you're building. What you're doing is similar. So I just wanted to connect what you're doing, which is way upstream from living an extra 20 years, let's say. And and the problem

[00:39:18] Jihane: there's no guarantee, right?

[00:39:20] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:39:20] And there's no guarantee you could guarantee it. It's oh, if you don't live to 80, just let me know and I'll give you your money back. Oh, wait too late. Yeah.

[00:39:29] Or if you do make it to 80, you have to pay me a million dollars. Sounds very tempting.

[00:39:35] That's actually insane.

[00:39:39] That's wild. I can't believe that's a, wow. I've got to think about that. But now imagine just, okay. Let's actually play it, play with that for a second. Imagine if that was your business model. If you make it to 80, you owe me a million dollars.

[00:39:52] Jihane: it's funny that you mentioned that because I almost thought about something similar in a sense that if I want to coach people on longevity, it would be very interesting for me to create long-term relationships with my clients. Hire me for the next 10 years and in let's see.

[00:40:13] Yeah. How old you might live and with kind of, what kind of quality are you going to have? Are you going to be an 80 year old in in a hospitalized place, in a bed losing your mind and all this stuff, or are you going to be an idiot? Traveling, having fun with her grand grandkids and being active that's a very different life.

[00:40:38] Jonathan: Yep.

[00:40:39] Jihane: With the science of eating, that's the promise if you if you do, and it's really every day little choices that you make every day and they compound and buy in 20 years from now, if you've done that every day, then your life is going to be very different. And yeah, that is super appealing to me too.

[00:41:03] So the sort of outcome and relationship and I feel like I operate bit better if I do have a long-term relationship. And I'm wondering how, like my clients and my own interests can align in a way that it's mutually beneficial.

[00:41:25] Jonathan: Yeah. it's very similar. In fact, to people who financial planners for, or wealth planners, who for people who are, have a lot of money to allocate or decide what to do with, or they want it to be multi-generational wealth.

[00:41:41] Similar.

[00:41:42] Jihane: yeah, and I love that you bring it up because I personally see health as well. For me, it's the same concept it's this part of a goal that you have in it's up to you to invest in it, to make it go by taking care of yourself by creating those healthy habits or let it go junk down downhill by not doing that.

[00:42:06] And I'm interested in concept of health management and maybe be a private health management. I don't know how to call it, but yeah, that idea is very appealing.

[00:42:22] Jonathan: Yeah. If we use the model, you could call it a health planner or a wellness planner, or it's and like catch phrases that are popping into my head is 80 is the new your mission is to make 80, the new 40 or health is the new wealth and

[00:42:39] Jihane: exactly. I've been playing with those keywords for years now and something else came to me. We have something else. You said planner in. It's one of my strengths, actually. I, because I have this background in research I'm really good at billing protocols. And I really enjoy doing that.

[00:43:01] And my husband went through a surgery earlier this year and as he was getting ready for that, I did some research to see what is, what can we do to make his recovery faster, easier, better. And I did a whole like plan. Around his surgery when he should eat after by focusing on Keanu transfer his boons and his muscles finding out that having gratitude, decrease inflammation in the body, like this sort of things, and

[00:43:34] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:43:35] Jihane: yeah, no, it's super wild.

[00:43:36] I loved putting that together. We had a plan and we both were feeling so much more at peace, knowing that there is so much you can do every day that wouldn't make this process easier on your body, easier on your health in general. And I feel like that's something I could offer to people, yeah.

[00:43:59] Jonathan: that's a there's. So there's something that's really useful about that specific call it an offering, which is that everybody knows somebody who's got a surgery scheduled. As a 50 year old, 52 year old, I know a bunch of people who have surgery scheduled. And if you, if your name was if your name was the first one on people's lips, when they were having a casual conversation with a friend and say, oh my father-in-law's going in for a hip replacement, like really you should talk to you about prep.

[00:44:33] Do you have a plan for pre-surgery plan? They'll say, no, I don't think so. He's just been sitting on the couch, watching golf and it's that's probably gonna cause the recovery to take a lot longer. It might even not take the surgery might not even take as well. Who knows. But if someone could, if someone's already facing this.

[00:44:51] Scary thing. Even if it's a minor surgery is defined as surgery on someone, other than you, like every surgery seems major to me if It's happening to me. It's a big, it's a big thing for your body to go through

[00:45:06] Yeah. so

[00:45:07] even if you were, even if you focused solely on people who are having like joint replacement, hip replaced, you could just focus on hip replacements and say Hey, do you know anybody who's having a hip replacement? You should talk to it talk, so it's real outwardly obvious trigger for a Rolodex moment.

[00:45:26] Jihane: A great grid thought that said Johnson. I have to bring my scope of practice and it's very clearly health coach is we can't like prescribe anything. I can't tell people you should eat this and that. So what I can do is do research and tell them, Hey according to you, the research that I've read two papers that I found on my end, the scientific publication, here's my take away.

[00:45:54] So for example, with my husband knows eat, if you eat 40 grams of protein per day it's pizza up here because every, yeah, so I can't prescribe it, but I can tell people, Hey, this is what the research says.

[00:46:08] Jonathan: So you could create a, like a research document, like a pre-surgery research document, and maybe, I don't know what they even perhaps show it to their doctor and say, Hey, does this seem does it conflict with anything or does this seem like a good idea? And presumably the doctor would be like, no, that sounds like a great idea.

[00:46:25] Jihane: Okay. Yeah, that's a good point. I could also potentially get in touch with doctors, but in my experience and not always super open to collaborate with coaches because yet, but

[00:46:39] Jonathan: yeah,

[00:46:40] Jihane: yeah, having the patient bring it up to their doctors is a good way to do it.

[00:46:44] Jonathan: Yeah. So the there's a sort of a parallel in my world, but I'm sure the certifications are different, but I had a snowboarding accident and like really wrecked one of my shoulders and it was causing me severe. It was fine for awhile, but it's, for some reason I probably wasn't having enough gratitude in my life and it got really inflamed.

[00:47:06] And so I had to go to the doctor and I went to an orthopedic surgeon and he was like there's two ways we can do this. We can he told me what the problem was. They put me in an MRI and they're like, yeah, you tore something. And there's two things you can do. We can do surgery or you can go to this physical therapist for.

[00:47:26] Whatever it.

[00:47:27] was 12 weeks or something. And I was like I'll take the physical therapy please. And the physical therapist has to go through a program, but they're not, I don't think they're doctors technically, but they do have to go through a certain certification program. So the doctor, for whatever reason, the doctor trusts the physical therapist.

[00:47:45] Maybe your industry isn't at that point yet, but there might be, I could imagine if you were in communication with doctor like a doctor like maybe someone in the family or your own doctor, someone who already trusts you as a person and maybe your husband's doctor and say Hey I put together this plan w and you said the surgery already happened.

[00:48:13] Okay.

[00:48:15] I don't know. I don't know. Maybe there's a conversation there where the very beginning of some kind of relationship with a doctor who does that kind of surgery that there would perhaps there is a way to thread this needle. Cause I, I do agree that in general doctors can and B They're focused on their own,

[00:48:37] their own style, right?

[00:48:39] Western medicine style. So I get that I'm a huge beneficiary of the way medical science works. And I would understand that they would be, see I'm skeptical of other or things that were perhaps unproven. But if you were but I'm just saying there might be a way to thread that needle.

[00:48:59] If you could have a really open, honest conversation with someone who is a doctor and does

[00:49:04] Jihane: yeah.

[00:49:05] Jonathan: Just from your personal life, then there might be a path there, but I don't know that you would need it because the, Hey, do you know anyone going in for a hip replacement or back surgery or a knee replacement or anything like that right away.

[00:49:19] You're probably talking about someone who is 50 sixties, seventies, and his PR.

[00:49:27] Jihane: definitely older, but yeah, if your other

[00:49:32] Your cancer surgery.

[00:49:34] Jonathan: So there, perhaps people like that are going to be in a value. Your other message. So let's say this is your

[00:49:44] Jihane: Yeah,

[00:49:45] Jonathan: in the door offering where you're like, Hey, do you know anybody that's having hip replacement and the, oh Yeah, I do. It's oh, maybe they should check out my website or jump on my mailing list or set up a phone call, whatever your thing is.

[00:49:57] And then maybe there's just a price for a pre-surgery call it research doctor. Where you go out and research all this stuff, because I know a lot of people like I know someone who went in for a hysterectomy and she researched the entire internet about everything, and it's like, why not have someone who's done it before?

[00:50:15] Do that?

[00:50:16] Jihane: Yeah. And I wouldn't be searching for the internet. I would be searching for scientific publication and I can read those. I'm able to, I can critically read those I can tell, oh, this is garbage. I wouldn't trust this research. You know what I mean?

[00:50:32] Jonathan: yes I do.

[00:50:33] Jihane: yeah. Yeah. So they keep paying for that Yeah.

[00:50:37] got a PhD, so you're paying for that.

[00:50:39] So it's not just a, I'm going to research every blog

[00:50:44] Jonathan: No, I'm going to Google

[00:50:45] Jihane: out there. Yeah, exactly.

[00:50:46] Jonathan: Yeah. Which is what they would do. So it's don't Google around because you're just going to waste a bunch of time. You're

[00:50:52] Jihane: No, I trust someone who's trained to read the scientific research on it.

[00:50:56] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:50:57] Has access to it and is trained to, to consume it. Okay. So that seems like that. And then once, okay, so now once this happens they have the surgery, let's say it goes let's say they attribute that in, in no small part to the plan that you created for them. Then it's

[00:51:15] Jihane: like I think the minimum you would get out of that is instead of being anxious about how things are going to go, I haven't been a piece of mind. You're like I've done my research. I know that I'm dealing with. The best I can to speed things along. Is that going to work? No guarantee, but at least you have that peace of mind.

[00:51:37] And I think it's a big part of recovering, yeah.

[00:51:41] Jonathan: It gives you a sense of control. Like you have something you can control instead of just laying there. So Yeah.

[00:51:47] I think that's really cool. I guarantee you that. Again it's a question of making a credible offer and having trust people have to trust you. And the offer has to be credible and the price needs to be less than what it's worth, but you're a hundred percent right.

[00:52:01] That what you're really selling is there's some, the thing that you can guarantee is the peace of mind, a sense of control, something to think about instead of worrying and and increasing the likelihood of a quick recovery. It's some who knows exactly what percentage you'll never know, you can't AB that kind of thing, unless you had like giant clinical trial or something but Yeah.

[00:52:26] that's, that would definitely be worth that's worth something that's worth more than five bucks.

[00:52:32] That's for

[00:52:33] Jihane: Yeah. And I'm wondering to what extent this could be like a digital product, like a download.

[00:52:40] Jonathan: How much research? I would imagine that if you were focusing specifically on hip replacements for a narrow. Demographic age wise, let's say, or maybe you even start with just female or just male. If there are big differences between you just focused down on one. I would imagine that the very, that you'd have a big boiler plate of a big, you wouldn't have to completely re research everything every time you got a new customer.

[00:53:10] Jihane: I think there's like a baseline. And that's why I'm bringing up this idea, that digital product, and maybe this could be like, this is the sort of the baseline you're seeing that works for everybody. And if you want more, do some more personal plan, get in touch with me and we can discuss a more individualized service,

[00:53:33] Jonathan: Yep. So you could have one that's maybe maybe a like you said, just like a best practices, general thing. And then inside of that, it's and maybe that's, I don't know. 300 bucks or something. Let's just throw it, throw a number out there. And it's literally like a digital, it's a PDF.

[00:53:52] And and then you have called actions. It's Hey if you want to take it a little farther and get personalized plan take whatever you need to take into consideration, if you feel like you've got, you're an exception to some of these rules or something, then for three, 3000, we can meet over zoom I'll interview you and put together a customized plan or whatever.

[00:54:17] So you could have a big step change in terms of the price for that particular like a one-on-one consultation and then like custom research or custom plan

[00:54:29] Jihane: I wanted to ask you something, Jonathan it's around where you make available, because, so for example, with the shirt thing that I'm working on, I was thinking about creating a webinar that would give people those identified eight, eight mindset shifts and eight like stray strategies that have worked for this person.

[00:54:51] And but that's my, that would be the backbone of a pro coaching program around that. Is that too much to give away for free? When

[00:55:03] Jonathan: No, I don't think so. No. Your like, coaching is all about showing up and providing accountability to unlock someone's potential. And you could, I like, if you people in my private coaching program, they don't hear anything that I don't give away for free on my mailing list. I have a 2000 articles on my blog.

[00:55:26] Like

[00:55:27] Jihane: I know I've thought about you because you give so much away. It's incredibly good to template for the proposal. Like all of the newsletter, there's so much. And yeah, I've been struggling. Like how much do we give away for free? And I feel like a part of me thinks the more you give away, like the more return you get.

[00:55:50] But like another part of me is cleaning on as well. I'm like, if I give those best tips away, then what do I have left to sell?

[00:55:59] Jonathan: Look at it like this. If the tips were going to work, then wouldn't, you want to give them away? If the tips on their own just worked and you're like, Hey, I discovered that if you just tie your shoes a little tighter than that, your whole life will improve. Like, why not give it, come on.

[00:56:17] You just give that away. What you're going to charge people for that. No, just give it away. If your idea is so you, cause that's not that if it's so easy to implement and it's going to have that big of an impact on the world, it's like, wouldn't you rather just be famous for that

[00:56:32] Jihane: Totally. Plus they would give me a little bit of validation as well.

[00:56:36] Jonathan: a lot. Yeah.

[00:56:37] Jihane: Like Hey, I tried your stuff and it works at least to have that, that as a proof in an evidence, because when I was trying to value price for this lady who approached me, like part of me is I think what I'm selling is also, it's not a temporary quit trigger for months and then you're going to go back eventually to your bad habits.

[00:56:58] Would that mindset coaching and the shift that you making potentially, you're never going to look at sugar the same way every day. But I don't really have evidence around that. So that's as long as I'm having the evidence, I can't really put that in the value of my offer.

[00:57:17] Jonathan: Yeah. The value pricing direct to consumer B to C stuff is it tends to be not worth the trouble unless you're dealing with billionaires or like peop people have so much money that. That or let's say a celebrity who just can't lose the weight or just can't, it's just having some symptom of what to be a sugar cause

[00:57:48] Jihane: Okay.

[00:57:48] Jonathan: that person who's got a $5 million deal to do the next Marvel superhero movie and can't fit into the Spider-Man suit is like they have a really high, they're going to have an extremely hot, they have the three things in the max price formula they're going to have, at least two of them are going to be really high So that the three things are desire, money and options.

[00:58:10] So they're going to have a real high desire. Let's just say the sugar thing helps you drop weight. Let's just say that's the case. So if they really want to lose 10 pounds in two weeks and they and they have tons of money, those two things multiply to create an extremely high value in their mind.

[00:58:32] Like they would pay. They would pay a ton of money for

[00:58:37] Jihane: the value of what you sell is also

[00:58:43] tied to the people you're selling to.

[00:58:46] Jonathan: Oh, you cut out a little bit. What was that?

[00:58:48] Jihane: I said the value of what you're selling depends on the people you're selling.

[00:58:53] Jonathan: 100%. Yeah,

[00:58:55] Jihane: I didn't realize

[00:58:56] Jonathan: That's all. It depends on values in their mind.

[00:59:01] Jihane: Oh yeah. It's the perceived, like the perception of where you get yeah, depending on the financial means and I see, okay how would you go about probing, like having questions to client to see what kind of budget they have, would you ask them like directly, Hey, how much would you be willing to dedicate to that?

[00:59:26] Jonathan: I know you have to wrap up. So I would say that. Unless you are talking to an extremely high net worth individual or a corporation who wants to buy some sort of program from you. I wouldn't even think about value pricing because everything that you have, that everything that we've been talking about lends itself to productize services and productized services.

[00:59:50] You can just pick a price that you'd be happy to do the thing for. So if you'd be happy to do something for a thousand dollars, then just price it at 2000 and then in your marketing or in your travels around the world when you're talking to people and doing webinars and so forth, you just need to put it in front of people for whom it is worth way more than $2,000 and they will buy it.

[01:00:13] So I don't, I feel like it, and it'd be so much easier. It's just so much easier. There's no art

[01:00:20] Jihane: I agree.

[01:00:21] Jonathan: Yeah.

[01:00:21] So if you could do that and create a subscription around ongoing habituation, Accountability to keep you off your sugar. Almost like my personal trainer, like I know how to work out. He just tells me to do stuff.

[01:00:40] I know, but if I didn't have an appointment with another person, I wouldn't do it. You could just make a subscription of some kind that maintains accountability for these folks. Once you've got them onboarded and off of sugar or whatever you're trying to do, and then just keeps them in maintenance mode for which they pay you monthly on their credit cards automatically charged monthly.

[01:01:02] Jihane: Yeah, that's a great thought. That's cool. Thanks

[01:01:05] Jonathan: yeah. Sorry. I know you gotta run, so I'll let you go. But if if you could just tell people before you take off, where's the best place to get in touch with you or find out more especially if they want to make a WordPress theme.

[01:01:18] Jihane: Yeah please get in touch with me. I don't have a website yet, so I'd love to be working with someone on that with potential opportunity to sell that template to other coaches, whom I'm in touch with. And I have ways to connect you. The best way to reach me would be to email me my email address.

[01:01:44] I run my business as Casper. Wellness catbird like the, at the animals because the catbird seat is a place of advantageous. So that's where the name comes from. So cat bird wellness@gmail.com. You can just get in touch with me. I would love to connect. And yeah, I would love to get in touch with anyone in your community.

[01:02:11] And I really appreciate your time, Jonathan, and this opportunity for me to talk those things out. It's very helpful.

[01:02:19] Jonathan: Fabulous. Thanks for coming on. I really enjoyed it.

[01:02:23] Jihane: Thank you.

[01:02:23] Jonathan: All right, folks, that's it for this week and Jonathan Stark and I hope you join me again next time for Ditching Hourly. Bye.