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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the Bible. Let's get into the episode.
Madison Moses:Welcome back to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. I am your cohost today, Madison Moses.
PMB:Yes. You changed your name, traitor.
Madison Moses:Yeah. Not legally yet, but in spirit, I am Madison Moses.
PMB:So My oldest Yes. And the producer of my grandchild. Yes. My grandson. Grandson.
PMB:I am the producer of your grandson.
Madison Moses:Yes. I'm not being referred to as such yet, so that
PMB:Yeah.
Madison Moses:Caught me off guard.
PMB:Yes.
Madison Moses:Okay. Let's jump in.
PMB:Sorry. I threw you off.
Madison Moses:It's okay. I'm great at being thrown off. Okay. Bryce from Hemet, California says, hello, pastor Matt. My brother and his family have recently converted from nondenominational Christian Christianity to Orthodox.
Madison Moses:And after many conversations, we agree on almost everything. But my brother tells me I'm missing out on having the fullness of faith by not practicing all the holy sacraments and the continuous prayers of the saints, for example. Are they wrong, and are we right? Or is it more complicated than that? Can another denomination still be saved?
PMB:Yeah. So Bryce, great question. And let me just say this. I'm super excited about you going to church. I'm super excited about your brother going to church.
PMB:And so one of the things that we got to be careful about when we get super excited about Jesus or we transfer to another denomination or another church is, I call it the cage stage, and it's where you're literally like this gorilla inside this cage, and you're all excited, and you believe that everything that you're learning and everything that you're doing is right, and and everything that everyone else is doing is wrong, and that just tends to be an overexcitement about the faith that you've either discovered at a church, or this faith that has been reignited at a new church or new movement. And so what I would say is, I think Orthodox faith is beautiful. We were actually in Greece a couple years ago, and people from Sandals were like, are these people Christian? Mhmm. Which is hilarious because the Orthodox church right?
PMB:So so there was one church Mhmm. We'll just call it the church, and then there was a split when the bishop of Rome in the one church, and I'm not going to call that church Orthodox or Catholic, which offends both groups.
Madison Moses:But Of course.
PMB:So when the one church split, Rome became Roman Catholic, and so there were five bishops amongst what we would call the original church. So the Bishop of Rome, the Bishop of Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and the fifth one would have been Alexandria. And those bishops kind of governed the church in a pluralistic sense. So when we read the Bible and it says elder, the office of elder, Paul appoints elders, plural. And so there was this idea early on in church that there was a multitude of leaders.
PMB:What the bishop of Rome said is we need to have a system where there is someone first among equals. So that's the idea, right? First among equals. So the Bishop of Rome is still equal with all of them, but he's above them. And so when they split, and the other four bishops said, No, we don't believe in that.
PMB:And there were some other I'm glossing over thousands of years of There were some other issues there in terms of the Holy Spirit, some language around who Jesus is, stuff like that. So then that's when the Roman Catholic church became. So Catholic, I believe, means original or true. Can you look that up in Latin? And then Orthodox, excuse me, Orthodox means true.
PMB:So that's why we have the Orthodox church, the true church, and then Catholic, they're going to tell me what it means in just a second, but it's the Latin word universal church. So right, so you have universal church and the true church, and so that's where it's split. And then where we come from, right, is out of the Roman Catholic tradition. So Roman Catholic priests, Martin Luther, Zwingli, and these other guys, they came out of that and said, hey, the church has gotten whack, and that's where Protestants, so Sandals is a Protestant church, we're protesters, so we protested against the Catholic church, got kicked out. So here's what I would say is, no one church is completely right.
PMB:We all have flaws. Sandals has flaws. The Orthodox church has flaws. The Catholic church has flaws. Calvary Chapel, Baptist, Lutheran, non denominational, everybody has flaws.
PMB:What your brother-in-law, I think, is seeing is there's beauty in tradition. And I think that's amazing. And I think there's a movement back towards tradition. So people my age, right, we moved away from tradition because it felt stale, cold, and routine. So we're just kind of doing these things, and it doesn't mean anything.
PMB:Now, young people your age, right, they've experienced the non denominational kind of look and feel of the church, and they're saying, hey, we want some of that old school routine. We want some of the liturgy. We want some of these things. And so even at Sandals, we've moved towards liturgy. We do the Lord's Supper every week.
PMB:So when he says, my brother says that we're not practicing all the holy sacraments. The Lord's Supper is one of the sacraments. So I grew up from a Baptist tradition, and Baptists say there are only two sacraments. So he says there's seven. Oh, wow.
PMB:So as Baptists, we acknowledge two sacraments. So one is the Lord's Supper, and the other is baptism. So where we would differ from our Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ is they baptize infants. Okay. So Orthodox hold to the teaching in Mark that indicates that you are only saved if you're baptized, and so they baptize babies.
PMB:Now there are some Protestant churches that do that as well. We don't hold to that at Sandals Church. We believe in what's called believer's baptism. So the seven sacraments, and I could get these wrong. So are baptism oh, man.
PMB:I'm not Catholic. What is it called when you're 12 years old and you reaffirm your faith? Confirmation. Sorry, guys. So baptism as an infant.
PMB:Confirmation, I would say some point 12 years old and beyond. So you're baptized as a baby, you're confirmed, then they have Lord's Supper, then they would say marriage is a sacrament, which I would say the Apostle Paul wasn't married. That's I would say, time out. I think that's incorrect. And then the Catholic church goes the other way, and they forbid marriage.
PMB:So Orthodox, right, says it's a sacrament, and their priests are married. Isn't that a trip?
Madison Moses:That is true.
PMB:So they're married. Catholics are like, no, you can't be married. And this is just where the differences and the nuances there. I forget what I'm forgetting. Yeah.
PMB:Anointing with oil for the sick, which we do at Sandals Church. We just don't call people forward for anointing of oil, and then what am I missing? Repentance. Yeah. Repentance.
PMB:So formal repentance, and that is both Catholics and Orthodox have that, but you go to the priest. So and they get that from the literal reading of James five sixteen, which says, are any among you sick? Let them go before the elders, right, being anointed with oil to be healed. And then it says, confess your sins, but the language is one to another. So where I would disagree slightly is I would say, yeah, yeah, we need to confess our sins, but in the text, it doesn't point to the priest or to the elder, but to each other.
PMB:Now you can't confess to a pastor. So I would say we do those things. We just don't call and teach, hey, here's the holy things that we do. Mhmm. And one of the things is is, you know, the thing that we hold sacred is the gathering of the saints.
PMB:Mhmm. So we gather for worship. That that's something that we do that is holy. They would just call that gathering a part of the Lord's Supper. I would say the Lord's Supper is a part of something that we do, but really it's the gathering of believers.
PMB:So I think it's a beautiful thing. Where I would disagree is the praying to the saints. I don't know Orthodox Christianity well enough to speak on this, but what I would say to my Catholic brothers and sisters, and my Orthodox brothers and sisters, is we don't have to go through a saint, we can go directly to Jesus. And I think that's an important thing for us as Christians to know, is we have a direct relationship to God. So as Baptists, we teach what's called the priesthood of believers.
PMB:So what that means is everybody in this room, when you are born again, so you confess your sin, you place your faith in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit comes upon you in that moment, so and I would disagree with our Catholic brothers and sisters who would say you need a baptism of the Holy Spirit. I would say if you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit, you're not you're not a Christian. Now, you could have a secondary, third, fourth experience with the Holy Spirit, hopefully. Yeah, 50. But when that happens, we as the church are priests.
Madison Moses:Oh,
PMB:wow. So that's why at Sandals, we don't have a priest because we are the priesthood of believers.
Madison Moses:Yeah.
PMB:And so that's something that is changed. It's something that Baptists died for. It's something that's very important to us. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters, but I believe the scripture teaches, according to Peter, that we are all priests.
PMB:That we are a part of a lineage of Jesus, and so and under him, we're all priests. And so that's where I would disagree with that. And so because we're priests, right, we go into the holiest of holies to meet Jesus, and we are able to speak to him on that. Having said that, there's beautiful things about Orthodox worship. Many people are drawn to that, and here's what I would say, is wherever you go to church, are you passionate about Jesus?
PMB:Have you been saved by grace? Are you learning and growing in your faith? And are you evangelistically reaching people, and is your church a part of the Great Commission? And so Catholics and Orthodox tend to kind of be self involved, which many churches can be that way. The Baptist church that I left to start Sandals was very self involved.
PMB:And so you tend to be either a mission, like think about the California missions, up and down our coast, or you tend to be a castle where you're protecting, and you're keeping everything inward. And Orthodox have a tradition of protecting because they had to, because they've existed under Muslim rule now for about twelve hundred years. Wow. So that's where the Orthodox Church has been persecuted in a way that the Catholic Church has not been, because they split. West and So those are the two branches.
PMB:And so that's a long, long answer, Bryce. A little bit a long. Yeah, but what I would just say is, man, bless your brother. I think it's great. I hope that he loves Jesus, falls in love with Jesus, learns every day, is passionate about his Bible study.
PMB:You know. And and I think it's okay to say, look, we worship the same God in different churches in a slightly different way.
Madison Moses:Mhmm.
PMB:We agree, Orthodox and sandals. We agree on the Trinity. We agree on the scriptures. We agree on salvation through grace alone. We differ on baptism.
PMB:They baptize infants, we baptize people who are believers. So like your son, if you brought him and said, dad, would you baptize him? I would say no. It's a decision he has to make as a person. And there's, you know, they have reasons why they believe what they There's a verse in the book of Acts that says, You and your whole household will be saved.
PMB:And so the interpretation is, by the father converting, the whole household converts. Well, that's true two thousand years ago, that is not true in the culture that we live today. You can have parents that believe in kids that do not. So we live in a different culture there. And so what I would say is we at Sandals Church, what differentiates, there we go, us from Orthodox, it's not just the way worship looks.
PMB:So I'm not wearing, and I'm not using this word punitively, I don't wear a costume, okay? Please don't interpret that as an insult. I'm not wearing an outfit. I dress like you dress, like everyone else is dressed, because my gifting is of the Holy Spirit, but everyone has a gifting, and I am not above anybody We are the church. And so I think I've been set apart to preach, but we all have gifts where we're set apart.
PMB:So I would just say stylistically, we look very different. Theologically, we're very, very close, very, very aligned, and that's very, very important to But I think as Christians, need to be careful. They are born again believers if they're born again. So I would say the same thing at Sandals Church. Is everybody that goes to Sandals a Christian if they're born again?
PMB:If they're not, they go to Sandals. And so, you know, Greek Orthodox tend to go there because either A, they're Greek, so it's a cultural thing,
Madison Moses:and
PMB:a lot of them aren't born again, or B, it's something that they've converted to, and they like that, and they appreciate So I think it's a beautiful thing. I think it's a wonderful thing. I am not an expert on Orthodox theology. So if I've misspoken in any way, please give me grace. It's just, you know, I don't know their two thousand year history.
PMB:I know a little bit about their worship. A lot of my early theology comes from them. Some of the early councils all came from them, and so I know that, but you know, we've split from the Catholic church now for five hundred years. So Yeah. Yeah.
PMB:Great question, Bryce. I'll be praying for you.
Madison Moses:Great question.
PMB:Oh, so yes. Can other denominations still be saved? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. If they're born again. Answered that, You
Madison Moses:did.
PMB:Okay.
Madison Moses:Yeah. But that's good. We love to end it clear as day.
PMB:Yes.
Madison Moses:All right. Jesus from Winchester, California. Sorry if it's Jesus, but I'm
PMB:It is Jesus. I'm gonna be I'm 99.9% sure it's Jesus.
Madison Moses:Okay. Sorry. I know a couple Jesuses. Alright. Okay.
Madison Moses:So we'll move forward saying Jesus. Okay.
PMB:Just for the record at Sandals, we have one Jesus. Yes. And not the guy behind me. All the haters out there.
Madison Moses:Not the guy.
PMB:That's a beautiful statue given to me in the West Bank in Bethlehem by an artist.
Madison Moses:We love that.
PMB:Yeah.
Madison Moses:Alright. Missus Workman, Melody Workman. Missus Workman is a great speaker and clearly talented. She will be so glad to hear you think so. I've been watching Sandals Church for a long time and feel like we only started allowing women to preach more recently.
Madison Moses:Why did it take that long to reach this position in regards to women speaking from the pulpit? What changed if what the Bible says on this now isn't new?
PMB:Yeah. Great question, Jesus. So what I would say is periodically since we started, we've had women preach. It just hasn't been consistent. And what I mean by that is typically we would bring in a guest speaker.
PMB:Like we've had Lisa Bevere many times. I'm trying to think, we've had Ruth Graham, Billy Graham's daughter preach at Sandals Church, and some of you, you never heard of that, because I don't think we had good enough technology to record it, but we've had her out, she's preached. We've had Anne Graham Lotz. No, I'm messing up her name, but we've had another woman preach at town. So we've done this periodically.
PMB:Here's what shifted. What shifted to me was not the scriptures. I've always believed that every believer can speak in the gathered church. And the reason for that is the book of Corinthians clearly states that when women are prophesying, they must do so with their heads covered. So I've never agreed with my fellow churches that say women must be silent in the church, because if that's true, you would never have women having to cover their head so that they could speak in church.
PMB:It just, it makes no logical sense at all. So I've always believed that women could speak. I think two things happened is there's been more and more research done, more and more has been uncovered. So in Israel, we uncovered a church. She's mentioned in Romans chapter 16, her name is Junia, and people aren't exactly sure how to translate the Greek.
PMB:Is she well known amongst the apostles, like she's one of them, or is she well known amongst the apostles because the apostles who are a separate group know her? And so I think the rendering most likely, Jesus, is that she is one of the apostles. And the reason for that is many Greek scholars intentionally changed her name to Junius for years, because the Greek, and so we go back to the Orthodox church, right? They speak Greek. They changed her name to a guy's name because the understanding was that, well, she is well known amongst the apostles, meaning she's one of them.
PMB:So that was one of the things that's kind of been settled recently. There's not a lot of disputing that. I mean, there's some little voices here or there, so that's something that's changed. The other thing that's changed is this idea of soft compatibilism. So there's really two branches of understanding between men and women, Jesus, egalitarians who say there's no differences at all in the church between men and women, and complementarianism.
PMB:Complementarians would say that there is equality in terms of their stature before God, but there's a difference in their roles. Did I say, I said it wrong, soft complementarianism. So there's been this rise of this new idea of what's called soft complementarianism. And when I heard that, and so why is that important for us? Because when I read the scriptures, it's clear to me that men are supposed to lead the local church.
PMB:So that's not something that I've changed on. So our elder group is all men in our church. The top leadership body in our church are men. I believe that men are supposed to lead their families. They're supposed to lead their wives, and that's important.
PMB:However, when you read through scripture, there's these moments where there's Deborah, there's Hilda, there's Jason in the book of Acts, his four virgin daughters who are prophets. There's whoever that was in one Corinthians that needed to cover her head to maintain her femininity as she spoke to men, right? So culturally, right? She's got to be super conservative as a woman two thousand years ago to speak in the church. And that's what I think it's talking about.
PMB:Ladies, it's not you at home covering your head to pray in private. And a lot of people do that. I think that's not what it's talking about. It's making sure ladies, that you're not a physical distraction when you are standing in front of a group of men, because what you want ladies is them hearing God not looking at you. That's what I think the text is saying.
PMB:And again, I'm trying to read through that. People can disagree with me. That's the way that I've understood that. So there's always been this tension between, guys, you're supposed to lead your marriage, you're supposed to be the spiritual leader, you're supposed to lead the church, that's important. And men are supposed to preach, right?
PMB:And Paul says in Ephesus to Timothy, women can't preach and shouldn't preach. And then he points to Genesis, but the problem is Jesus tells women, one of them, a little crazy, they're the first women who preach. He says, Go and tell who? The disciples, I am So the first sermon, the first announcement of the gospel ever is women preaching. So there's this tension there.
PMB:And then somebody gave me a book called Men, or excuse me, Slaves, Women, and Homosexuality. And they gave me this book, and I read it maybe ten years ago, and it just talked about how Christian's idea and understanding of slavery changed, Christian's idea and understanding of women in ministry changed, but homosexuality from the beginning to the end, there's no change in terms of practice. There's never anything in the Bible that indicates it's okay for a man to have sex with another man or a woman to have sex with another woman. But there are these instances that I mentioned where Deborah leads, where Hilda leads, where Jason's daughters lead, where the woman in Corinthians leads, where Junia that we mentioned in Romans led. I grew up a Southern Baptist, Jesus.
PMB:I was not taught these passages. They were in there the whole time, but they were kind of like, where's Waldo? Like I had to go looking for them and I had to find them. And so what changed is not scripture, Jesus, it's I changed and I started looking at this and I decided, okay, I'm what's called a soft complementarian. So what does that mean?
PMB:I believe that elders are to be appointed leaders over the church, But in Ephesians four twelve, there are gifts that are given to the church. What are those gifts? Apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and I'm missing one, the fivefold ministry. Pastors, there we go. Thank you.
PMB:The one that I'm trying to talk The guy from New Zealand gets it. So those five, apostles, evangelists, now I'm getting it wrong again. Ephesians four twelve, go look it up, but it's the fivefold, and it's gifting. And once I saw that as a gifting, I thought, okay, women can do this. They can operate in this.
PMB:And preaching is certainly a gift that the Lord gives teaching, that's what I'm missing. I kept missing it, of course, the one that I needed. God gives teachers to the church. And sometimes, Jesus, I've seen, as is the case with Melody, there's an anointing and a gifting there that she has that other men in our church who know the scriptures, are great leaders and great pastors, God didn't give them the gift in the same way that he gave her the gift. So now I have to steward, as the chief elder at Sandals Church, I have to steward the gifts and resources that God has given our congregation.
PMB:And I believed I would be sinning to not have her utilize that gift. You know? And so that's why. Now, that is a huge deal in my own denomination, Southern Baptist. We do not ordain women as pastors, trying to honor our Southern Baptist tradition, and just say that because Southern Baptists interpret pastor and elder as the same, I would disagree, but I try to honor their understanding of that, because it's not a closed hand issue for me.
PMB:So that's what changed, Jesus. It's not scripture. Scripture's always been there. My awareness of what scripture said, and knowing that first Timothy two, is it eight through 10, can you look it up for me, is not the only thing that is said about women in ministry. And I believe that that was a specific issue that Timothy was struggling with in Ephesus, because women in Ephesus were ministers in the cult that was there.
PMB:And so you had these cultists coming into the church, speaking and saying all these things, and their tradition was the exact opposite of what our Bible says. They believed that women were created first and the man was second, and they had all of this misunderstanding. And I think what Paul was saying is, look, we're going to nip this in the bud, and here's why the problem is, because Eve was misled in Genesis, and so that's why I'm going to put a pause right now on Boom. That's my interpretation. It's very difficult.
PMB:There's a lot of pastors that disagree. And what I would say is every pastor has to make decisions as we're leading, and we want to be true to the text, but we have to also deal with gifting and anointing. And again, who's the greatest judge in the book of Judges? In my opinion, it's not close. It's Deborah.
PMB:And she led, and she was amazing. And so as a kid growing up in Baptist church, heard about Samson, how great he was, how strong he is. Well, he was a womanizer. I heard about Gideon, who was total chicken. You know, I heard about all of these judges, but I never really heard about Deborah.
PMB:And so that was just my own tradition in kind of looking at the scripture with one eye closed and saying, okay, we're not going look at these women who were clearly leaders. So, and then in my own movement, Southern Baptists, you know, women can't be apostles, and yet our greatest apostle to China was Lottie Moon, who was a We take an offering in her name. And and by the way, did you guys know this, that there are now more Christians in China than America? No. China has surpassed us in the number of Christians, and that goes all the way back to the seeds that she sowed.
PMB:Wow. And and to the apostolic mission that she went on. Wow. So, yeah.
Madison Moses:That's amazing.
PMB:Great, great, great question, Jesus.
Madison Moses:Yeah. That's great. I love that you mentioned stew like, your one of your jobs is stewarding the gifts that God has given. Because I think I wonder if obviously, you said your awareness on the subject grew, but also I think just the timing of even, for example, just Melody being
PMB:Yeah.
Madison Moses:A person here, if some of that had to do with it too. Because as someone who's gone to sandals my whole life, it's very clear to me, we value women. Yeah. And teaching on the platform in different ways, but also like you said, it's that gifting, that anointing Mhmm. We just maybe hadn't seen it yet.
Madison Moses:Yeah. Now we do so much more. So I I love that you said that. Yeah.
PMB:I would say on our life, there's a call to preach. I love what you said about stewarding. So let me say it in layman's term. Imagine I'm a coach. I have to field the team with the players I have.
PMB:Yeah. And so let's say, you know, we're in boys little league, but I got a girl that can throw, like she can throw heat, but I'm going say, no, I'm going put a guy on the mound who can't pitch, and I'm going to put the girl that God gave the gift to pitch on the bench. I think that's silly to eliminate 50% of your congregation because of their And Southern Baptists traditionally have said yes to women in missions, because women have said yes to global missions in droves more than men. Mhmm. And so what they did is they said, you know what?
PMB:We can have a pastor in in China, but not here. And it just, you know so think about Lottie Moon had to share the gospel, convert a man Mhmm. Teach the man scripture, and then anoint him her leader over That's Like, it's just it's just crazy. And so so what I'm trying to do is field the team, and I have to look at the team that God's given me with the gifts. And, you know, and so that's what I try to do.
PMB:And so that's my understanding. Not everyone agrees with that. So just know, I'm not trying to say this is how everyone thinks, but for me, Ephesians four twelve are gifts to the church. Those are gifts. So apostle, teacher, pastor Why can't I think about my brain?
PMB:Sorry guys, I preached this morning, so But can you read me someone read me Ephesians four twelve real quick? It's apostle, evangelist, teacher, pastor. I'm missing one.
Madison Moses:I feel like I'm failing as your daughter, but I don't know anyway.
PMB:We'll edit this out so it's not so long. Pastors and teachers. Okay. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers Pastors. And pastors.
PMB:There we go. So that's what we need, and those are gifts given to the church. Thank you guys for loving your pastor when he's a little slow and needs more coffee.
Madison Moses:All good. All good. All right. Our final question from Rochelle from Eastvale, California. Are denominations a sign of Christian diversity or evidence of division in the body of Christ?
PMB:Yes. To both? Yeah.
Madison Moses:Hey,
PMB:that's how it It's a sign of both. And so, know, growing up as a kid, I grew up Baptist. I thought everybody thought like Baptist, believed like Baptist. So I went to Baptist church, I went to Baptist college, I went to Baptist seminary, and then I started this church called Sandals, and all these people started showing up with all these different ideas, and theologies, and understandings, and experiences. And at first I thought, oh, they're all wrong because they haven't been trained the way that I thought.
PMB:And then I met people from various denominations, various churches. Like I remember the first time meeting a charismatic Catholic who is born again, loves Jesus, follows him, wants to bring revival to the Catholic church, but my training was, oh, then why don't you go to a church like mine? It's like, wait a minute. The church like mine came out of their church, and they're staying in their church, which by the way, is what Martin Luther wanted to do. He didn't want to leave.
PMB:He wanted to stay. He left after his life was threatened. So he never wanted to split the church. He wanted to reform the church. And so what they're wanting to do is bring revival in their church.
PMB:It's what I want at sandals. I mean, do we want all the on fire, born again Christians to leave sandals? No, please stay.
Madison Moses:Please stay.
PMB:Please stay, and stay on fire for God, and help the rest of us to catch on fire for Jesus. That's so important. And so what I would say is, yes, the denominations speak to the diversity of Jesus. I was in Dublin, Ireland last week, and I preached at St. Mark's Church.
PMB:I'd never been there, never heard of it. Been to Dublin three times, it was my first time there. And I found out that John Wesley preached in that church.
Madison Moses:Oh, wow.
PMB:And he finished his sermon in the parking lot because they kicked him out. Oh. Yeah, they threatened his life. And so John Wesley was preaching in the Anglican church. In America, we don't call it Anglican, we call it Episcopal, same church.
PMB:So Episcopal is the American version of the Anglican church in England. So John Wesley was an Anglican preaching revival. And here's the thing, you can get all sad and say, oh, the church rejected him. That's not true. The majority did, but a minority of people followed him into the parking lot.
PMB:And it wouldn't have been a parking lot, it was actually a cemetery. I found out they paved over a graveyard in this goodness. I know. So there's dead people underneath this parking lot. It's in Europe, man, you got do what you got to do.
Madison Moses:Not enough room.
PMB:And so he finished the sermon, but here's the thing, John Wesley always preached to Anglicans in Europe and Episcopalians in America, and then when he died, his believers or followers said, we got to start our own thing, and they followed John Wesley's method of preaching, teaching, and assimilation, and guess what they call themselves? The Methodists. So it was a great thing, it's a beautiful thing. Now they've gone way too liberal, way too woke. It's so sad.
PMB:And not all Methodists, so please don't send me an email. You know, we're grateful for the movement. We appreciate everything you've done. And there's all kinds of movements that have spun out of that. I think Assembly of God have come out of that, the holiness movement.
PMB:I believe most of the charismatic movements and revivals came out of that, cause the Methodists were the first to embrace blacks in America, beautiful to ordain black people. I mean, there was just, AME is Anglican Methodist Episcopal, I think church. So a lot of black pastors are AME churches. And so they literally, you can hear all of those things in their heritage. And so it's a beautiful thing that came out of that, but the Methodist movement has run out of gas.
PMB:You know, I gave my life to Christ in a Calvary Chapel church. Your mom was a disciple in Calvary Chapel church. The Calvary Chapel movement does not have the gas that it had in the sixties and the It just doesn't. And if you go to a Calvary Chapel church, that's not a criticism, it's an observation. So we need new movements.
PMB:We need new things. So what I would say is God uses diversity. I think he tries to ignite revival. So with Martin Luther, he tried to ignite revival in the Catholic church. It didn't happen, so there was this movement of Lutheranism.
PMB:The Catholic, or excuse me, the Anglican church split away from Catholics because King James, I think wanted to get married. He wanted to divorce his wife, and get married. To remarry. So he started his own church. When you're the king, you can do what the king wants.
PMB:But out of that has from incredible You think about, you know, the teachings of Oxford. You think about, you know, all the incredible Trinity College in Dublin, just incredible learning institutions. But then out of that, John Wesley got frustrated and Methodism started. You think about my tradition coming out of the Anabaptist movement in Europe, and Anna is we were for baptisms. So the thing is the Orthodox and Catholics baptize infants, we baptize adults.
PMB:And so we were for believers baptism. That's what we preached, and we got persecuted. And so we came to America, and then out of that sparked the Southern Baptist, which was a great movement, but it stalled. And now they're infighting over women in this, and you know, they're fighting over theology, and meanwhile, America's going to hell. So what I think we need, Rochelle, is we need these new movements.
PMB:You know, who knows, in fifty years I could be dead and sandals could be a movement, you know, and people be arguing about what I said, or I didn't say. I mean, it's not a prideful statement. That's how these things start. I don't think John Wesley ever thought I'm going to start a denomination, because he didn't. But people said, Hey, I agree with his teaching, and our denomination, they won't do this.
PMB:Didn't have a heart for the lost. They didn't believe in, you know, blacks and whites worshiping together. I mean, there were all of these issues that needed to be dealt with and that weren't dealt with, and so beautiful movements were started. So I would say you can get really sad and depressed and say, you know what? There's a lack of unity, it's division, but if God didn't want it, it wouldn't happen.
PMB:So God's in it somehow. Now having said that, I think at Sandals Church, need to work for unity, we need to have grace for each other, we need to hold to the truths of the gospel, right? The Bible is the word of God, Jesus Christ is the son of God, he's the only way to be saved. Those are closed fist issues, but issues like should women teach? What are the roles of the office?
PMB:You know, baptism of the Holy Spirit, is it when you get saved? Are things that I hold more lightly. Some I'm more passionate about than others, but so that we can really appreciate the church at large. So we're a part of Baptize America. Baptize America comes out of the Pentecostal movement, okay?
PMB:Sandals was the only Baptist church last year to participate in Baptize America, which is sad. That is It's baptized. You got Baptists not participating in a baptism movement now that's Baptize America, and then next year it's Baptize the World. And I wanted to be a part of that because I want to be a big tent Christian as much as I can. It's really easy to sit back and criticize and call everybody a cult that doesn't do worship the way you do, but you got to be careful.
PMB:And here's why, Christians. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, we don't know exactly what it is, but here's what I think it is. It's seeing the movement of the Spirit and saying that's the devil.
Madison Moses:Oh, I just got the shivers, honestly. Yeah,
PMB:that's the devil. And that's what the Anglican church did to John Wesley. That's what Southern Baptist did to Billy Graham. I mean, I can't tell you how many people called Billy Graham, you know, apostate, cultish. I've heard people say that about Greg Laurie.
PMB:He's amazing. I mean, if it wasn't for Greg Laurie, I wouldn't be saved. So people love to criticize what's popular and what God is doing and the movement of God. And that's what Jesus is saying is your whole Jewish denomination has been waiting for this moment, and it happened, and you are calling me the devil. What are they saying?
PMB:You're a cult. You're not the movement of God. And so people say that about sandals.
Madison Moses:Yep.
PMB:I preach the word of God as best I can. We're not perfect. You know, are there things wrong with sandals church? Of course, just like every church, everywhere. But be very careful about labeling something occult.
Madison Moses:Because
PMB:sometimes the Holy Spirit has to do something different to keep moving. And that's why I've mentioned the people I've mentioned. So great question, Rochelle. I wish that we could all get along because the last thing the devil wants is us to be unified. So we try to do that, but it's tough.
PMB:So thank It's tough.
Madison Moses:I think I've heard you talk about over the years too. I mean, it's even back to the first question of gifting of some of like why we have different denominations of if we cared about everything, nothing would get done. And so I think there's some truth to that as well as people pursue and have a heart of different things in some of those nominations. They're able to pursue that because if we cared about everything to as strong as we could, we wouldn't have time to do it. And so I think that's where even some of that unity comes from from the umbrella like you were talking about is as a whole, we love the world.
Madison Moses:And so Yeah. How we love it can be different. Alright. Great answers?
PMB:Yeah. I hope so.
Madison Moses:Yep. Great answers. Thank you for having me on today's episode.
PMB:Yeah. Thanks for filling in for your mom.
Madison Moses:I do what I can. Thank you for listening to The Debrief today. If you like this podcast, please let us know. You can like, share, subscribe, share with a friend. Please share with your family member.
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PMB:Yeah. We love We
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