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In this episode, we sit down with CEO of Ballen Studios, Nick Witters. Nick is the strategic mind behind some of YouTube's most influential creators, including his current work with MrBallen and past experiences managing MrBeast. A combat veteran and law graduate, Nick offers a unique perspective on the challenges and triumphs of navigating the digital content sphere. He unpacks the layers of talent management, content strategy, and the relentless pursuit of excellence that drives the most successful creators.
Other topics discussed include how a follow-up email launched his career in the William Morris mailroom, how to connect with impossible-to-reach clients, what it's like managing MrBeast and MrBallen, always putting clients' needs first, why being a lawyer makes you a better negotiator, obsession as a prerequisite for greatness, the power of "mental chess" in closing huge deals, knowing when to be a freight train and when to tread lightly, why it's crucial to hire a CEO once you reach 3-5 employees, how failure can kick you to the next level, the truth in the quote "fail fast", the value of impatience, and many other topics.
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Nick, how good is this man? Meeting last week, and now we get to have you on the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah. This is cool, man. You guys are you guys have good energy, and and I like your, you know, your mission, what you guys are trying to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, we heard awesome things about you from a couple of our mutual mutual buddies, Mills, who's an absolute legend and a character in Giacomo. And so you were just in their office. We were in their office recording some content. And the more that we got to learn about your story, we were blown away and just thought that you would make for an amazing guest.
Speaker 3:I mean, combat veteran, lawyer, talent agent, talent manager, CEO of Ballin Studios. It's like, dude, you feel like you've lived 9 lives and 1 at this point. That's probably what it feels like. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, it's funny because I, I'm I'm so impatient. Right? I'm like, damn. Turn 35 next week, and I'm like, damn.
Speaker 2:I haven't done enough. You know, everyone's like, bro, you gotta gotta understand what you've done. You know? Yeah. And for me, it's, you know, I don't I don't try to keep score on this stuff.
Speaker 2:Right? I I like to think of it as experiences that help me grow and and get smarter and, you know, learning from mistakes and I've made plenty and have lost a lot and
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've won many many, you know, battles in in the arena, but it's, I'm blessed to do what I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, I'm sure it's probably a superpower in some ways knowing accepting the fact that you have achieved a lot at a young age, but also, like, kinda turning those blinders on and always focusing on the next thing. It's probably, like, a blessing and a curse in some ways too. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, because I you know, it's it's funny. So I went I worked at William Morris Endeavor, and I was an assistant. You know, everyone's like, there's these rumors go around, you know, actors, directors and shit. And the one thing that stuck with me was when James Cameron James Cameron is on the red carpet, movie's about to release, First question he gets, what's next?
Speaker 2:You know? Mhmm. And that's kinda how you have to approach the entertainment business. You know, you can't be looking at the wind. You can't be looking backwards.
Speaker 2:You gotta be looking forwards. And so that's kind of one one of the things I I try to really pay attention to. And then you'll be a manager. That's, like, my calling. You know, being an advocate for people.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? And so my energy isn't like, oh, look what I've done. It's like, yo, look what look what my client did.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You
Speaker 2:know, look what my client's doing. You know, what's the next cool thing, you know. And then getting them excited and kinda getting their heads straight and being a creator's tough, man. You're you're on stage naked as hell. Just put it all out there for the universe to judge the hell out of you.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Where, where do you feel like you fit in in terms of just, you know, the creators obviously out there trying to put out their heartfelt content with whatever it is. Yeah. But then you kinda fit into this position of it's almost like a coach, but you also have have to be able to operate and then also have vision. So it's like a unique blend of, just the support that you are able to provide to the the creator.
Speaker 1:I'm just curious, like, what do you see as kind of that that magic formula to make a really good manager for creators?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a good question. I, you always have to put the creator first, you know, when John and I got in to working together, you know, my mission is, you know, John's number 1. Yep. Company's number 2.
Speaker 2:Family's number 3. I'm number 4. Right? And if you're a manager, you always have to make sure your your client knows that they're number 1. Always.
Speaker 2:And one of my close mentors, at William Morris, he worked for the head he was the head of talent department. He works with Jason Momoa, Justin Timberlake, guys like that. And when I told him I was gonna go into business with one of my clients, he was like, you know, I think it's a great opportunity, but just always remember he's number 1. You gotta make sure he knows it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I always stayed true to that North Star. I think that's that's a key to being a good manager. Yeah. Always putting your client first.
Speaker 3:Always putting your client first. Yeah. Yeah. And you have such a fascinating backstory of, like, I mean, you're truly I think the definition of a self made man in a lot of ways. And so you go from being a combat veteran, you get your JD.
Speaker 3:I know you started in the mail room at William Morris, became an agent. And for the for someone that might not know you, it's like mister Ballin is massive. Like, 8,750,000 subscribers on YouTube. You guys are doing millions of downloads a month across all 5 shows that you manage. And before that, you were at Mr.
Speaker 3:Beast too. So I would imagine that's such an amazing perspective of you that you've had of working with 2 of the biggest creators that are out there and just playing game playing the game at a totally different level than what everyone else is doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was fortunate. Well and so when I was at William Morris, I was an assistant. I worked in branding and endorsements. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That was my first stint. I was in the mail room, like, 3 or 4 days. Usually, it's, like, a 4 to 6 month period. You float, you know, you push a mail cart. Big Jack dude suited up, pushing a fucking mail cart.
Speaker 3:With combat experience too and you're pushing a fucking mail cart.
Speaker 2:All the kids are from, like, USC, fresh out of undergrad. You know, I was 27, I think, at the time. And, I got a lot of you know, I had I have a gal that that was working for me. She was my coordinator, and I moved her into production because that's where she wanted to be, and that's where I see her growth. And I told her, I was, like, you know, you don't wanna just work for me.
Speaker 2:You wanna work for a lot of different people, because you're gonna get a lot from each person. So my first agent I worked for, I really understood, you know, what's pay attention to the zeitgeist. See what's going on. Start to, like, you know, what's the intangible shit you're seeing, you're hearing, connect dots, you know. And then my second position at at WME, I was an assistant for Brent Joel, who's who was the head of the talent department.
Speaker 2:And just how he worked with talent was so particular, and I took a lot from him. And then my 3rd stint was with Amir Shaka Loli, and he, is a complete savage. This guy would take 2 calls at once, so I'd be on 2 phones, And then he'd have an ear so we had an earpiece in, and then he'd have a hard line a landline on him like this. And he'd stand there at at his desk with with his fingers on both mute buttons. And then I'm on the back right across from him, so I'm seeing him.
Speaker 2:I'm reading it. I got calls coming in. So line line, you know, there's like 7 lines I could call at any time. So I'll, like, hold, answer, put on hold, write the name down, hey, we'll call you back, boom, put on the call sheet, just just railing stuff. And so I learned a lot from him.
Speaker 2:How to multitask, how to just be helpful. The one thing he always said to me was, Nick, you know, if you haven't noticed yet, I always end a call with how can I be helpful? Right? Because you never know when you're gonna need help or when you're gonna need that favor, so just always be helpful. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I never made it to the agent track. COVID hit in parted ways and all that stuff, which was good. And then it gave me time to kind of reset, regroup. Took the bar exam again because I failed it the first time. Took it again, passed during COVID, and then got a call from my buddy Giacomo,
Speaker 3:who I
Speaker 2:was in the mailroom with at William Morris. Him and I got really close. He's like, hey, man. I'm working for this company, Night Media. And I was like, cool.
Speaker 2:And he's like, oh, they're they're, you know, YouTuber managers. I was like, okay. And I knew nothing of YouTube. And, you know, I would watch the news or learn how to change the starter in my truck or whatever. Like, I was not a YouTube guy.
Speaker 2:He's like, oh, well, you'd be like Dated and Mr. Beast. I was like, who's that? You know, I'm I'm a 20 I think I was 31 at the time. I'm turning 35, so I was probably 30, 31, 31.
Speaker 2:And, I was like, I don't know who that is, but let me look at it. Right? And I saw the numbers, and I was like, if numbers are eyeballs and eyeballs are dollars, this is interesting. Yeah. And I always had it in my mind that I wanted to be the best or the biggest negotiator on the planet.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:You
Speaker 2:know, negotiate the biggest deals for the biggest creators. Right? Or the biggest, you know, whoever. And that's why I had legal background, all that shit, and then, of course, my my primary is advocacy. And so I told the CEO at the time, who I was his right hand guy.
Speaker 2:I was, like, I'll give you 6 months. If I like it, I wanna be a manager. You'll promote me to manager. I'll sign my own clients, because you can't be manager without clients. And if in 6 months I don't like it, I'll take off.
Speaker 2:No harm, no foul, but I'll fucking crush it for you. And I did. And I worked with Jimmy. I worked with James Warren, the CEO. A lot of they have a very talented group of people.
Speaker 2:They are all in on what they're doing. But to the last point is, you learn a lot when you work for the Michael Jordan of YouTube. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1:What's, so what what was that experience like going from mailroom to work with Michael Jordan of YouTube? Like, did you feel like you are over your skis at all making that jump? Or was it kind of a
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny. So when you're in traditional talent, right, traditional media, you you look at digital and YouTube as, like, 2nd tier. That's just how it's bred into you. Yeah. So I'm like, oh, it's not Brad Pitt, Denzel, Momoa, Timberlake.
Speaker 2:It's a YouTuber. Right? I mean, hell, John mixes YouTube videos from his iPhone Yeah. Still in a green screen. Right?
Speaker 2:So in traditional Hollywood and traditional talent, you don't really think of it as that premium, that, like, oh, my god moment. Right? But if you're a YouTuber, you're, like, holy fuck. That's mister Beast. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, my niece and nephew think I'm the coolest guy on the planet, and I am not. Yeah. But in their eyes, I am. Because I work, you know, I've worked with Jimmy, and I'm still very close to them.
Speaker 2:James Warren is like a brother to me. What he does at his level at that scale is tremendous. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't really have that, oh, fuck moment.
Speaker 2:I was like, okay. Like, I got hired on to be a manager or a coordinator at the time, manager track, and that was Jimmy's day to day. So I was in Greenville, boots on ground, negotiating deals, you know, partnerships, licensing agreements, merge, all this stuff. So
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it's it makes so much sense looking back as to why you didn't have that context because you were just swimming in a completely different pond. And you imagine if Giacomo was, like, oh, you don't really understand mister Beast? Take Denzel, Brad Pitt, Momoa, and another massive a list actor, and then combine all their views, and he's doing more every single video.
Speaker 2:If he would've sold me on that, I would've been, like,
Speaker 3:sign
Speaker 2:me up. Sign me up.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, you know, he, he he played it right because Giacomo worked for this the president, and that was more venture focused, labs, business incubating, And I was on the manager side, so I was running the manager department and working with the managers there and closing Jimmy deals and trickling all those deals down like they couldn't afford Jimmy. So I would make it a point to connect the other managers to them and these brands, so I was closing deals for all of them.
Speaker 3:I love it. We wanna get into all the negotiation deal closing stuff with you because I think there's so much alpha to be gained there. But, when you when you mentioned your, I think the second person you worked for, William Morris, the actual talent manager, I'm really curious about that experience. And the reason why I'm curious is that I think Harry and I have noticed particularly early on when you punch above your weight and get really big a list guests on, it's a really delicate balance because some of the guests that we've had on, I'm like, dude, I've watched your content for 5 to 10 years. And I've I noticed I think we learned at the beginning that it's like you can almost over encroach and that person almost puts you on a peg below them.
Speaker 3:So I'm just curious. What were some of the things that you observed from your boss? Why was he so good at talent management? And how did you kinda take some of that stuff and bake it into your own routine in the way that you sign clients now and work with big creators and things like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You have to care. You have to really care for your client. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 2:And you gotta, like, not just, like, oh, I care about them, like, they're an asset, or, oh, I care about them, like, they're uncle or an an aunt. It's like they're fucking family. That's your baby. You know? Because a lot of these clients, you're picking them up when they're younger, they blow up, or they blow up, but they're new.
Speaker 2:And so what Brandt was really good at was he was so personable, and he had such a personal touch, and you could tell he cared. He remembered every birthday. He remembered every holiday. Like, it was just he was always connected. You know?
Speaker 2:He wasn't one of those guys he did have, like, 30 or 40 or 50 clients on his roster, but if you were a client, you felt like you're the only one. So those are some things I took from him. Got it. What, In confident. He was very confident.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because you have to be confident or your client isn't going to be in the decision making process. You got they gotta trust you, they gotta believe you, You gotta believe in yourself. You gotta believe in them. You have to have confidence.
Speaker 2:Because you're gonna hit some turbulence as a manager or an agent, and you have to be chill. You gotta be calm. You can't be freaking out. You can be freaking out inside, but they can't know that you're freaking
Speaker 3:out. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? So there's a little trick to it.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 1:Was there anything from your SEAL experience, that Air Force.
Speaker 2:Or sorry. Chair Force. John's a SEAL. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, my yeah. My bad. No problem. Is there anything from your Air Force experience that you brought into that room at William Morrison that gave you a sense that you were gonna be able to make those steps? Obviously, COVID happened, but, like, that you were in the right room that you could be at that level.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think what hit me hardest was when I moved to non scripted, because I always want to be a talent agent. I wanted to work with talent. Not for a production company that was talent led, that you're working with the president of the production company, and you're doing shit like that. But at that time, the talent group was stacked.
Speaker 2:So you're waiting to move up when either an agent moves out or there's a, you know, surplus of clients that need to be, you know, handed by day to day or like a junior manager, you know, shit like that, and you're on the team. Yeah. But, you know, my background being in the military and having gone to law school, really solidified me in a confidence perspective because I'd been through a lot of shit that no one else probably really went through who was an agent. So I felt like I had an edge, and I'm extremely authentic and I care about my clients and that's important. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So Well, I would imagine that the one maniac that you were telling us about who I would have 2 phones in the mirror and you're you're you're banging 7 phones. I'm like Yeah. That stimuli. I'm like, you you're doing that shit in your sleep probably when you're in the military.
Speaker 2:You get used to that shit, man. You'd woken up by rent by, you know, the bells or the the horns and shit. Yeah. You get up and go. You make your bed, you put your shoes on, you tighten it up, uniforms on, you're standing in line straight on, get out of attention, you're just you're doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're ready to rock at all times.
Speaker 3:Constantly.
Speaker 2:I get a call at 10:10 AM or 10 PM or 5 AM or whatever. I'm I'm up. I'm ready to go. Let's talk. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:Let's figure it out.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you're not the type of guy where it's, like, call comes in for a potential dealer client at, like, 9 o'clock at night. You're, like, hey, dude. You text him. You're, like, hey, dude.
Speaker 3:Let's just talk tomorrow. You're, like, no. Let's just do it right now and get it done.
Speaker 2:Depends. Depends on the tactic. Yeah. Depends on the negotiation. Sometimes you gotta be like, let's get this fucking done now.
Speaker 2:Let's get it done because we got a lot of work to do when we do it. Or it's like, hey, let's let him sweat a little bit, you know. Let's let him think about it. So it just depends on the deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I felt like, just kinda scraping through your LinkedIn prior to this conversation gave me a lot of context just how quickly your ascent has been, as a manager. And, you know, I'm not just trying to blow smoke up your ass, but the fact that you started pushing a mail card in 2018 at William Morris, and now you're the CEO of Ballon Studios. It's like that's an unbelievable ascent in a very short period of time. And I know that there's a lot more that you wanna do when you're not satisfied and you're always hungry, which is one of the amazing things about you.
Speaker 3:But if you kinda look back over the last, like, 6 or 7 years, why do you think you've been so successful? And are there any aspects or nuggets or things that you've done that maybe, like, the listener could take home for themselves or someone that's, like, damn dude at 34. I wanna be at a similar level. I just don't wanna I don't wanna be middle management or coast through my life. Like, what do you think about?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's a lot about where you grew up, how you grew up, what your motivation is. You know, for me, I always wanted to learn. Mhmm. I just wanted to grow.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to be better. I hate making the same mistake twice. So my advice would be, you gotta just be hungry, gotta put your fucking head down, you gotta drive forward. And then second to that would be, fail and fail fast, and learn from your mistakes, and you'll go and you'll go far. Because every failure I've had, every mistake I've made, I try to learn from it, and that makes me better.
Speaker 2:Makes my decision process better, sharper, makes my gut instincts tighter, you know, shit like that. But fail and fail quick. And then get up, dust yourself off, proceed further.
Speaker 1:I think it's becoming more and more rare for people to really get comfortable taking risks. Like, I I just think about a lot of people that, you know, I I've been friends with throughout the course of my life from high school through college and now, you know, post college, and it just seems so uncommon to be willing to take risk. And a lot of that comes because, like, they're afraid to fail. And I just think about how much that actually bankrupts people, and it actually it handicaps them in such a massive way because those failures are where are where the gold is. I'm curious.
Speaker 1:Do you have any failures that stick out to you that are, like, you know, worth sharing where you're like, yeah. This this kinda, like, needed to happen, and it changed my perspective on things?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I quite a bit. Probably can't even list them all in a 2 hour session, but I would say the first couple were you know, I grew up really poor. Single wide trailer, backwoods Washington State, didn't have a college fund, didn't grow up with health care, no dental, and no nothing.
Speaker 2:And now I run the company as the best health care on the planet. Yeah. Right? But, I wasn't ever given anything, you know. And so that led me to go into the military, go to the military, get my school paid for.
Speaker 2:I did a combat tour for a year in Baghdad, Iraq. I was a 50 cal gunner. That put shit in perspective. I was 20 at the time. I think I turned 21 in the desert.
Speaker 2:Damn. God bless my mom. She mailed me, some shot glasses. Thought I'd celebrate my 21st birthday, but it's a dry country, So no liquor. No liquor.
Speaker 2:And I don't drink anymore, so it's probably even better. First yeah. The first l was probably just, you know, having to figure it out for myself. How do I get to school? How do I do that?
Speaker 2:How do I do that? 2nd big one failure wise was I lost my mom when I was 26. She got the flu. She was, like, my best friend. She was my biggest motivator, biggest supporter.
Speaker 2:I did everything just like, want to make her happy, make her proud and shit, and she passed away 52. And that really fucked me up. That was right when I was in my last year of law school. That happened. Started drinking a lot, you know, boozing and shit, trying to feel something.
Speaker 2:And then, failed the bar exam. That was another l. Took me, like, 9, 10 months to even just get looked at at William Morris because I wasn't the traditional USC school grad. Dad's a producer. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Uncle's an agent. Like, here's your resume. Get him in. You know, that type of shit. I had to fucking bang on every goddamn door to get in.
Speaker 2:Suited up, resume in hand, tie, looking like a douchebag. Just hating it. You know? But you gotta do what you gotta do. And then when I was at William Morris, I got fired right before COVID.
Speaker 2:Yeah. My drinking got a hold of me. That was pretty tough. I got fired. I was just kinda over it, and I wasn't happy.
Speaker 2:I was in non scripted where I didn't wanna be, but there's upward mobility. So I was like, oh, well, I'll be an agent non scripted or maybe I'll go to digital. We'll figure it out. You know? But I wasn't happy.
Speaker 2:I was just I was tormented inside. And so, that was a that was a big wake up call. So I dusted myself off, stopped drinking, studied for the bargain during COVID, took the bar, passed the bar, took the opportunity at night, took that opportunity, ran with it, signed John, and then left night, which was tough. John wanted to go. He's very vocal about that.
Speaker 2:He wasn't really happy there. My loyalty to my client, so he's like, I'm leaving. I go, alright. Well, I'll go with you. And then we started the studio.
Speaker 2:So the 3 major ones was, you know, having to join the military. Well, wanting to join the military, but also didn't have the luxury of just going into college, you know, with the student loans. And then second was, her parents having a college fund. Mhmm. 2nd was, getting fired at William Morris.
Speaker 2:And then or the second one's losing my mom. 3rd was probably getting fired at William Morris. Wow. Very big l's. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Really kinda could fuck you
Speaker 3:up. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And to your point, right, about, you know, people, you know I think everyone gets complacent at a certain point. Right? So for me, when I got out of the military, I was like, no girlfriend, no kids, no baggage. I'm gonna have a blow up mattress. I'm gonna have a studio apartment.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna fucking grind till I get to where I wanna go. Then I'll do everything else. Because you get the job, it's like, 80 k, and then you buy a house, and then you get a girlfriend, and then you have a kid, and you get married, and then, oh, I'll make a $100. Oh, that's plenty. Because in your head, like, when I was when I was a kid, I was, like, if I make a $100 a year, I made it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm the richest man alive.
Speaker 2:I'm upset, dude. I'm upset.
Speaker 3:LA, you can't even buy a shack for a 100 k.
Speaker 2:No. You can't even get approved for a
Speaker 3:shack. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Fucked up, but it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I would say complacency really gets people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, they feel comfortable. They're scared to take chances because they might lose everything. Well, if you're a solo amigo, you lose everything. Well, it's just on you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Go sleep in your truck. Well, I did that for 2 months. Go sleep on couches for a couple months. Did that. That's okay.
Speaker 2:You know, you gotta just continue the mission.
Speaker 3:It's it's, in some ways maybe superpower where, like, you've actually experienced the lowest the lows with the, you know, with those 3 l's and you literally bounce back every single time and it's helped you kind of ascend to the level that you're at now too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. General Patton had a quote. He's like, I don't judge a man by how high he climbs, how high he bounces after he hits bottom. Mhmm. So I always had that mentality.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You can bounce back. You know, you can bounce back. You know, so but not if you make the same fucking mistake. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. You ain't getting anywhere.
Speaker 3:Gotta learn from that mistake. Correct.
Speaker 2:You gotta be humble. You gotta learn from those mistakes, and you gotta fix it. You gotta move forward.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You said you were banging on a bunch of doors just to get in with William Morris because you weren't connected, didn't go to Wharton or something like that, you know, out of the military, just doing everything on your own. What, how did you finally get their attention? Did you finally just land on the right person that was like a veteran that believed in you? Or what was that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Funny funny funny. So Brandt was a navy vet. He was the only other vet that I knew at the company. But I didn't know he was a vet or I would've hit him up first.
Speaker 2:But he also isn't a guy to give handouts, so I doubt he would've done that. Not that because he well, he knows me now, and he's he's one of my closest mentors and will always be, but, you know, he's he came from nothing too. And so what I did was I kind of deconstructed the process. I was like, exactly. Who's got a similar background?
Speaker 2:Who's been through similar shit? You know, let's let's try to find that person. Let's go to everything you can go to and every mixer or whatever the fuck. Get your name out, get your resume out, look like a douchebag, dress up as a monkey, do your thing. And, by the way, I love wearing a suit.
Speaker 2:I just don't wear them anymore. Yeah. I got a bunch, got a lot of dust on. But there was a guy because I'm in law school, and I I know how to research a little bit. And so I found an article of this guy named Mark Corman.
Speaker 2:And Mark, to this day, is still one of my closest mentors too. And he was a big TV exec or a TV agent at William Morris, but he was a public defender. He was, like, 33, and he was in Chicago bartending on the side because he wasn't make that much money, and was bartending and ran into some guys who were filming a movie out in Chicago, and they're talking, they're broing out, they're friends. They're, like, man, you you make a great agent, dude. And he's, like, what's that?
Speaker 2:He packed his shit up, sold his condo, moved to LA, had the same experience. No one gave a fuck. And so he worked his way up, was like a licensee, lawyer at, like, a debunked news company, and then he worked at another place, and then he finally got into Mike Ovitz Management Group. And then he was a business affairs guy there, so internal attorney, in house attorney. And kinda got fed up with it, asked for a meeting with with, Ovitz and was like, I wanna be a manager.
Speaker 2:I'll do whatever it takes. You don't have to pay me. And if I you know, you want to fire me in a year, I'll pay you back whatever it costs for that transition. And Ovitz is like, well, I don't I don't think I cannot pay you legally. He's like, alright.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a shot. So then he became an a manager, and he moved to UTA, was an agent, and now he's, like, biggest swing of dick on the planet when it comes to TV reps like Dick Wolf and M. Night Shyamalan, all that shit.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So I read this article, and I was like, alright. Well, let me try to find this guy. So then I started researching, like I tried to find the email address for William Morris because all the agents have the same email. It's like first name or last name, first initial at wmeagency.com or some shit like that. So I found that, and I emailed him, and I sent him my and I was in law I was in my 2nd year of law school at in Seattle, because I transferred my 3rd year to Loyola and studied entertainment law.
Speaker 2:They've done the number one, legal entertainment law program on the planet, and I transferred there my last year. But I at that time, I hadn't got accepted, but I was going to apply and I was dead set on transferring, which is not what you do your 3rd year. You do that your 2nd year.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know? And so I emailed them, sent them my resume. I was, you know, on the subject line, your story's inspirational. In the body, told them my story, put in my resume, sent it, got nothing back. And all my buddy and I was so excited that I was I was gonna email this guy, and it's gonna work out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Didn't hear nothing for, like, 2 weeks. And all my guy all my buddies are, like, dude, you're an idiot. He don't give a fuck. Like, no one cares about about that, you know. I was, like, fuck you guys.
Speaker 2:So I resent the email. Just said resend. Response back, like, 20 minutes later. So I came in. I think you sent this to me before.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you end up getting to LA, stop by. We'll grab coffee. And I was like, it's on. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Finally got approved to to transfer to Loyola. Moved out to LA in August of 2016. Got my monkey suit on. Had my resume in hand. I show up at the WME office.
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm here to see Mark Corman. Because in my mind, if I email him again and I don't hear back, I can't show up because you just look like a freak, like a psycho. Right? Those guys have weird people coming in all the time, the security everywhere. And so my my so my negotiation style was, like, I'm just gonna show up.
Speaker 2:Hey, he said stop by and get coffee. I'm a stop by and get coffee. We wasn't in town, office hits me up. Hey, I'm his I'm Mark's assistant. Can you come next week?
Speaker 2:I go, I'll be there. And showed up his at his office, told him my whole story, who I am, what I'm about, what I believe in, what I want, what I wanna do. And he's like, alright, man. Do me a favor. Finish up law school, take the bar, pass the bar, and I'll see what I can do.
Speaker 2:So I took the bun and then my mom passed away and all the bullshit happened and took the bar, failed the bar, and I hit him back up. And I was like, hey, man, took the bar, and you don't know for, like, months. Right? But, hey, took the bar. Would love to, like, get in wherever.
Speaker 2:Like, I'll be a I'll go into the mail room. I don't care. Just let me get my foot in the door. And couple months will buy, and then every, like, holiday I could think of, hey, man. Happy such and such.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, you know, thanks again for meeting with me. Super excited to to start working, you know. Hey, Merry Christmas. And he's probably Jewish.
Speaker 2:Oh, fuck. Okay. Hey, happy Easter. And so, like, 9 months later, he, I hit him up on, on Easter. I was like, hey, man.
Speaker 2:Happy Easter. Hope you and the family are well. Really excited to, you know, start working. He's like, hey, man. How you doing?
Speaker 2:I go, to be honest, not well. I go, I'm not working. I don't have any money. Can't afford rent. Like, I'll do anything now.
Speaker 2:He's like, alright. Would you consider the mail room? I go, yes. He's like, alright. Let me see what I can do.
Speaker 2:Connect me with HR, met with Dana Powers. Met with Dana Powers. She's like, yeah. You're a little bit older. You know?
Speaker 2:You got a law degree, maybe we start you out as an assistant, but in business affairs, I was like, I don't care, wherever. Months go by, 2 months, 3 months, 4 months. Hey, man. What's going on? Okay.
Speaker 2:How's everything going? And, still nothing. Come months go by, come months go by, still nothing. And then, I think it was Easter again or something. No.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's a little bit after that or before that. Because I started April 18th in 2018. So I hit him up and I was and, you know, another holiday thing. So then then I was emailing both of them happy holiday for everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Staying on their fucking radar. And Dana was like, well, you know, it doesn't pay much. It's, like, $15 an hour. Would you consider the mail room? I go, I will mop floors.
Speaker 2:Whatever you want. He's like, okay. I get a call. Hey. I got you into the next cohort.
Speaker 2:You're starting the mail room in April. So let's fucking go. They finally got in.
Speaker 1:What? It's it's really amazing hearing you tell that story because it's just such a great test testimony to the the power of persistence. Like, they had no reason to continue to engage, but you were just like, I'm gonna get this job.
Speaker 2:Give them the option.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But you didn't even you almost didn't give them a choice to but to hire you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Dana's still a very good friend of mine. So is Mark. So is Brandt. You know, Leaks, she's one of she was the first one I worked for. First agent, Amir.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That that was gonna be my question is, what do those guys think of you today? Like, that first impression that you left on them, it had to have been, like, a very impactful experience for them. On the other side, I'm sure they have plenty of people who are knocking down the door, but that's like, your your effort there is incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I just made it a point to come every day to work. Like, it was my first day. Don't give them a reason not to want you back. You know, go in every day, look at your first day.
Speaker 2:You got 2 ears and one mouth. Listen more than you talk. Yeah. And so I just crushed it for everybody I worked for, and I was trying to be helpful and this and then and yeah. I would say even today, like, so for Brandt.
Speaker 2:Right? His kids go to UT, both his boys, and I knew them when they were little kids. Like, I think one was 9 and one was 10 or 11 or 12, something like that. And, both his kids go to UT. Well, John did his live event last October at the Paramount, sold out less than a week, 1300 seats, and I hit a Brandt, and Brandt, you know, he knew my progression.
Speaker 2:And I was like, hey, man, do the do the boys want to go to to John's show? They're like, oh my god. He they would love it. So I got him front stay front row, got him right in the, right in the show. And yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just it's cool to to be in a position where now, you know, you're wanted after all that shit. But that's kind of the goal. Right? You don't know when it's gonna happen, but that's the goal. And so, and John's extremely popular, so we get hit up a lot.
Speaker 2:But I'll hit up Brandt, be, hey, man. I want to get John on John Bernthal show, Real Ones, and I know you used to work with him. He's at, I think, CAA now, but I was, like, you know, can I get his info? Because I used to work pretty intimately with, like, John Malkovich, John Bernthal, Momoa, Timberlake, all that shit. And yep.
Speaker 2:Sends me his contact right on the spot. Boom. Done. Like, that's the kind of power you they have that if they believe in you and you do good by them, that you hope that, you know, they'll help you out too. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Grant, my all my mentors have helped me out in that degree.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. And I'm sure it's a it's a special thing of, like, knowing where you were at that time just fucking knocking and knocking and knocking, and you're, like, I'm not gonna stop knocking until someone lets me in. And you're and in some ways, it's like you're you're making them proud where it's like they took a chance on you, and you absolutely crushed it. And now you've probably ascended farther than 99.9% of other people that started off in the mail room with you, if not a 100%. 100%.
Speaker 3:Right? It's a it's a really special thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm blessed, man. I'm blessed by being kinda ignorant, kinda hard headed, and don't like to be told no, and Yeah. Find every way to get something done and, you know, that tenacity that you brought up is very it's a very strong part of success. Because you're gonna you're always getting told
Speaker 1:no. Yep.
Speaker 2:I fucking hate it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But
Speaker 2:I like it too because then it just you end up getting to the yes. It's just not really on the first round sometimes.
Speaker 3:It fuels you. It and I I think there's, like, this mental alchemy where, like, the alchemist can turn lead into a to a gown of gold or whatever it's called. Yep. It's like being able to do the same thing from negative to positive thoughts, and I think back a lot to, you know, I remember we were trying to get Michael Bostick on the podcast and DM ed him a bunch of times. It didn't really lead anywhere.
Speaker 3:And Harry and I would just be, like, dude, just wait. We just wait within, like, the next year. We're gonna get this guy in the podcast. And then it's, like, ended up finding the right contact, connected us right to him. Yep.
Speaker 3:Awesome dude.
Speaker 2:So many gatekeepers in entertainment, man. It gets annoying.
Speaker 3:But what did that dopamine hit though of, like, getting past the gatekeeper and getting in the door? Like, that's the shit that lights me on fire. And I'm sure it does for you too.
Speaker 2:Dude, that's, like, the coolest part. Right? Like, just connecting dots that just no one thought of or or connecting people. Like, I I connect people all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If they're in my circle, I'll connect into my other circle. Right? And and I think that's kind of a lost art on some of the newer agents and managers where they're just permanent gatekeeper. They're not trying to be helpful and you're just like, why? Right?
Speaker 2:And then you get to a point to where, oh, well, now they want you to help them and you're just like, I'll get back to you when I get some time.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Give them a little give them a little taste of their own medicine too.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir.
Speaker 3:Well, it sounds like, you know, you the gatekeeping getting past gatekeepers a dopamine hit for you, but it also seems like deal making in negotiation is a big dopamine hit for you too. Bro, mental chess.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mental chess. And sometimes you do it by brute force. Mhmm. Sometimes you do it like a ballerina.
Speaker 2:A little soft touch, a little scale, a little this, but, there's an art form. And you gotta know when to push and you gotta know when to wait, you gotta know when to be quiet, Let the dust settle. Reengage. You know? So it's it's an art form.
Speaker 2:You know? I think lawyers make the best negotiators. Not every lawyer, but someone with a legal background that understands because it it going to law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It
Speaker 2:doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer. Because all you do is go through case law and take exams and just get your ass kicked for 3 years on top of 4 years after undergrad. So you're going to school for a long time. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you gotta really want it. And so, you know, my background, just kind of my overall demeanor in in in how I can build relationships, but I've learned a lot over the years where I've been too aggressive or I've been too kind of too disrespectful or mean, but, like, I push a little too hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I've got to learn how to kind of refine that. There's a right place and a right time for that. But I've never had a deal go down where where I got fucked over in the last year or 2, because I've just had that happen too many times, and you start to build up that, like, red flag instinct to be like, this one of those moments. Alright. Let's figure this one out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We walk from that. We just disengaged. We do kind of sidebar. Do we do we backdoor, you know, or you kind of work in different angles and stuff but Do
Speaker 3:you think negotiations a skill that everyone is capable of earning?
Speaker 2:If they want it. Right? Like I read, Never Split the Difference with, Chris Voss. Yeah. It's a good one.
Speaker 2:Hollywood Deal Making, that book is a really good book if you're interested in deal making in entertainment. And then just I mean, I I won the 1 l mock trial competition, which is every 1st year law student against every 1st year law student, and it's pairs of 2. And you compete against each other in, like, a mock trial. And my myself and my partner, we won 1st. We got 1st place in that.
Speaker 1:Wow. So I
Speaker 2:was like, alright. I have I have a I have a certain built in instinct for this thing. Mhmm. But I think we have with the right practice and the right the right want and need, I think most people could be relatively good.
Speaker 1:What does, what does preparation look like for a negotiation? Like, what do you wanna walk into the conversation knowing about the situation?
Speaker 2:It depends. It depends on what you already know. So it's a mix of the information you already know. It's a mix of information you want to get from them to know more. I'm I'm kind of weird.
Speaker 2:I I don't like to prep for calls. I don't like to prep for podcasts. I don't like to prep for negotiations. You have to have the end result in mind, but I work best in flow. So I like to come in just dry, ready to go.
Speaker 2:Let's just figure this shit out in the room. And then I if if I have to turn it on, I can turn it on. John's the best at turning it on. This guy, fucking 10 10 times out of 10 could out turn on if when it comes to, like, me, you know. Right.
Speaker 2:He made a comment one time when we first started working together. He's, like, dude, just just I never want to negotiate against you. And I was, like, one, I wouldn't want to do that either because you're my client, you're like my baby, and I would never want to put you through that, but he's just like, dude, you are a fucking train assassin negotiator, like, it just is what it is. But him in a room, it's like fast. Him and Jimmy in a room, there are no better people to like get someone excited to get them to just say yes to you
Speaker 3:in the room and and it's just it's it's fascinating to watch those guys do that. Dude. Yeah. I'm sure this is probably the most common question you get asked, but what is Jimmy actually like in person?
Speaker 2:Jimmy's cool, man. He's a fascinating guy. He's just like, you know, his mom was in the military. I won't go into his personal life because it's, you know, off the record shit, but, you know, really really, you know, strong mother figure, grew up in North Carolina. You know, he's building out his entire operation in North Carolina, you know.
Speaker 2:And he's just a super down to earth dude, man. He's, like, very smart. He's very articulate. Zero patience for bullshit. Probably for anything really, but, you know.
Speaker 2:And he knows what he wants, and he gets what he wants.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So What stands out to you about his success story? Like, what he had to go through in order to reach the level that he's at now?
Speaker 2:And that dude's making YouTube videos when he was, like, 10. He's been a creator for fucking damn near 13, 14 years.
Speaker 1:It's crazy.
Speaker 2:But his big break was when he got his 1st brand. I'm pretty sure this all went down, but he got his 1st brand deal early on. Well, after, like, years. Right? First got a his 1st brand deal, and he took that brand deal money, and he made a video where he gave that money to, like, a homeless guy, and it went extremely viral.
Speaker 2:So he's like, oh, spectacle, cash, money, this. So he's starting to make connections because a lot of his contents, like, gave away a Lamborghini, gave away a Tesla, you know, last to leave the circle gets a $100 or $500 or whatever it is. Right? So he took that money and invested in his channel. And immediately did, though, and most creators probably take that money, like, oh, man.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go fuck I'm gonna go put that down payment on that condo. I'm gonna go rent. Alright. So you're not gonna buy something with it? So yeah.
Speaker 2:Reinvesting was his smartest thing that he did. And everything on his channel is real. So that half million that he gives away, you're getting a half a million. You're paying taxes on it. You're getting a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or whatever, well, you're gonna pay taxes on it, so they'll give you cash equivalent.
Speaker 2:If you don't wanna take the asset, pay the tax, they'll just give you the money. Or if you don't wanna change the transmission or change the brakes in a for in a Lamborghini, it's gonna cost you $50 or $30. Well, you ain't got that cash. So most people take, like, cash equivalent.
Speaker 1:Was he the 1st person to really popularize that idea of kind of, like, making the the gifting component? Gamifying. Yeah. Gamifying. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You I
Speaker 2:think so. Yeah. I think I mean, I'm not a YouTube expert. You know, a lot of people ask me about YouTube. I know what I know, but I know what I know better with what I don't know.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So I don't know if he was the first, but given his trajectory and when he was doing it, he probably was one of the first. He was the first to really focus on spectacle shit. Because before Jimmy, you know, you had PewDiePie, but he was more commentary. He was, like, the big guy.
Speaker 2:He was, like, the the guy. Right? PewDiePie's legends. There always will be, 1st to a 100 mil in subscribers. And then Dude Perfect was doing spectacle work or spectacle content, but it was like trick shots and Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, shit like that. So that was kind of, you know, spectacle at its finest, but in like a sports vertical, and then Jimmy just had his own twist on it, you know, cash giveaway, you know, last to leave a circle, you know, anything you put in this triangle at the grocery store you can take or, you know, the the all the stuff he's doing. It's just fascinating. Mhmm. And their team is insane.
Speaker 2:They have, like, 200 people that work for him. James Warren runs an incredible team. Jimmy's still extremely involved in the business. They're they're gonna go far. They're gonna go very far.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I keep, kind of been ruminating on you saying that he's been making YouTube videos since he was 10 years old. And it sounds almost ridiculously simple, but I I just think a lot about the benefits of just starting young or starting as soon as possible. And we see that a lot in our space is, like, we've come across a lot of dudes that are in, like, their mid twenties, early twenties, and they're like, hey. I've been running this agency since I was 17 years old.
Speaker 3:I was making enough money where I stopped going to college and I doubled down. And so because my first thought process is like, damn, this kid is so young making so much money. And I'm like, well, yeah, dude. He's been doing it since he was 17. So he's got, like, 10 almost 10 years of real world experience.
Speaker 3:And that's I you know, I think about, like, a lot of these younger creators that we connect with that wanna get in the game. I'm, like, dude, don't overthink it. Just start now because by the time you're our age, 29, 30, you're gonna be, like, levels above where we are now just by starting earlier.
Speaker 2:I mean, Jimmy was trying a bunch of different stuff. You know, he was, like, counting to a million. He was saying PewDiePie a million times. He was listening to Logan Paul song a thousand times. Whatever he's cheap versions of spectacle.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Like, who the fuck is gonna do that? Like, I gave my 3 millionth subscriber 3,000,000 pennies and, like, dumped took a dump truck and dumped it on his his driveway. Like, he just what? Well, that's $3,000,000 was in pennies. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, like, I filled a big I filled a, you know, house pool with Orbeez or some shit like that. Like, just stuff you wouldn't think of, so just creativity. He's he's just trying a lot of stuff, and he's trying to figure it out, and he's seeing what pops. He's and they are so into data. What's the data telling me?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Because if you're just doing it for doing its sake, you're not going to learn. You got to really analyze what you're doing. You got to look at the data, you know, what's YouTube doing? What's the algorithm doing?
Speaker 2:Is it the holiday season? Is it, you know, what kind of content am I putting out there? Like, there's so much stuff that's that's that's doable, but what do you end up doing? You know, what's gonna hit? What's gonna be your brand?
Speaker 2:Right? Like, you can go and be, like, I'm gonna do a YouTube channel on this kind of content. May never hit. And then you're like, fuck. I'm gonna try this one thing.
Speaker 2:Try it and it hits. That's what John did. John was on TikTok back in 2020. Like, you know, he was, so he was a Navy SEAL, got out, got injured, did another tour after that, and kinda got his medical retirement dialed up, gets out of the military, starts a non profit, Elite Meet, which was for special operators that are getting out of the military, and him, John was trying to connect. Because John was, like, man, I need to try to find a job.
Speaker 2:But he's, like, well, what if I help other operators, former operators to find jobs too? Well, maybe that'll get me to find a job. And then the foundation took off, started bringing in some money, then he started fucking with, with with digital. Right? Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, TikTok, and he landed on TikTok, but everyone was doing, like, dancing stuff or just little kid shit.
Speaker 2:Like, TikTok is for kids. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so John was trying everything. He had a list of, like, a 100 things. I'm gonna try all this type of content. See what hits. And the very last one, the last idea he had was about telling a a strange, dark, mysterious story about the Dyatlov Pass, which is a group of, like, 7, like, the world's best hikers that are gonna get certified, and there's this thing in Russia, and, you know, you go through this, like, terrain, and you have different checkpoints, all this stuff, and they they didn't end up showing up, and they went missing.
Speaker 2:And all the stuff around it pointed to a lot of weird shit. Could have been Russia nuclear stuff, could have been, you know, an animal, could have been, like, anything. Yeah. You know, strange, dark, mysterious. So he told that story.
Speaker 2:He's at a water park with his kids. He's got 3 kids. He's got, 8, 6, and 3. And he's at the water park with his kids. I think Ernie wasn't born yet, so he probably just said Ella and Cora.
Speaker 2:But, he puts his phone down. He's in the water park. He's hanging out. Don't wanna get his phone wet. Comes back a couple hours later.
Speaker 2:Goes to hotel room, picks up his phone, and it's blown the hell up. He's got, like, 5,000,000 views on it. He's like, what? So that 100th time of trying different things, he finally found something that worked. He's, like, oh, fuck.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna do more stuff like this. He comes from a storytelling background. His dad worked at the Globe for, like, 30 years, started the spotlight team. Have you guys seen the movie Spotlight with Michael Keaton?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's based off John's dad. So Really? Yeah. So Scott Allen.
Speaker 2:So Scott actually works for us.
Speaker 1:It's the Boston Globe story. Right?
Speaker 2:Yep. Yeah. Yep. When the priest priest debacle that scandal out in in Boston.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, these go on camping trips and his dad would tell stories and their his family are all storytellers. Right? His mom his mom's incredible. His name is Jesse, and she's so sweet and so funny. She's like my mom.
Speaker 2:She's like my my new mom. And so anyways, they're all just, you know, they write in prose, and they're always writing these big letters to each other, and it's it's absolutely adorable. Because it's funny too, because when I was at night, and John would just write paragraphs to me. And I read everything. I mean, I'm a lawyer.
Speaker 2:All I did was read. When I was a kid, I hated reading. I was in, like, special ed reading too, because I was just so stubborn about reading. I hated it. And then I have to go in law school, and that's all you do, but I had a mission, so I did it.
Speaker 2:It did anyways. But, all the managers would be, damn, man. You read all that shit, like, you actually read that song? I go, absolutely. Of course.
Speaker 2:I give I care.
Speaker 3:Care about my clients.
Speaker 2:Care about my clients. So number rule number 1, care about your client more than you care about yourself. And then his mom comes on, she's writing books and paragraphs to me, and I'm reading everything. And then, his sister Evan took up the family tradition, worked at The Globe, brilliant brilliant mind. And she is a 2 time Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter for The Globe.
Speaker 2:She actually works with us now. She's one of our lead producers. She runs the topic finding, research, writing, trains writers. We have a training program. I mean, we have, like, almost at the end of the year, we'll have 50 employees.
Speaker 1:Wow. Yeah. What an advantage having that. Because, like, having someone to do that research that you trust at that level, your sister to come in
Speaker 2:Oh, dude.
Speaker 1:Be the topic picker.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was funny because John you know, you gotta think, man. So I I signed John when he was he had, like, 3,000,000 subs on YouTube. He was doing, like in the beginning, he was doing 5 videos a week, 5 a week, fully researched, topics found, recorded, edited, and it was him and an editor, and that was it.
Speaker 2:He was doing, like, 24 hour days every day. It was nuts. He's just, like, I didn't I couldn't stop because I had something special. I didn't know what that was, and I'm not a YouTuber professionally. I'm a guy with in my basement.
Speaker 2:I'm a 30 year old former Navy SEAL with 3 kids making videos from my iPhone with a green screen. Like, how do you, you know, to navigate that business is is is like climbing Mount Everest every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? And so, then he was doing 3 videos a week, and then 2 videos a week, 1 video a week, then he was kinda he was burning out. He's burning out hard, and and rightfully so, he was just pumping out. If you're doing a show a week, that's good. And he was doing 3 or 4 a week.
Speaker 2:So he was very, very attached to his content and his brand, because any wrong thing, any missed fact that wasn't said or was said incorrectly could destroy his credibility, because it's all about true stories that are the best researched by Pulitzer Prize reporters. Like, you know, it's quality among above quality. The most premium you could get. So getting him to feel comfortable with people topic finding for him was tough. It kind of started to loosen up around, thumbnail title thumbnail and title for YouTube.
Speaker 2:Because I'd step in because I was learning all this stuff with Jimmy and the Beast team. So I was analyzing the thumbnail and the title, and I was looking at the data. I was looking at the analytics. I was like, why did this one do well and this one didn't? Let's look at it.
Speaker 2:And he was very particular with his brand. He's like, I I don't want to glorify this, and I wanna make sure we pay homage to the victim. We don't over sensationalize the killing, and we don't promote the person who killed them and all this stuff. It's very tastefully done. And so he had a very strong hold on, you know, on research and writing and topic finding and thumbnail and tie everything.
Speaker 2:So getting him comfortable, giving him the confidence to know that we can find the right people that will do good by him. He doesn't have to worry that one wrong video or one wrong fact given in a story will destroy his entire livelihood. Mhmm. And that's what's tough, and a lot of creators are 1 man bands, a 1 woman bands, and you can only grow so much in that type of headspace, and you typically hit burnout before you ever grow, And then you're just another tail.
Speaker 3:And that's where you come in, but I would imagine it's like that investment of that blood, sweat, and tears of, like, you like you look at the production quality level of detail, the research, and you're like, dude, 1 episode a week is a herculean task. That maniac was doing and I mean, that in the most complimentary way possible, doing 5 episodes a week. You would really like our buddy, Zach Pogrob. I don't he's blown up on Instagram. He's got, like, a 1000000 and a half followers throughout the last year, but he talks about obsession almost as an art form.
Speaker 3:Jimmy says the same thing. He
Speaker 2:says he uses the word obsession.
Speaker 3:Obsession. You have
Speaker 2:to be obsessed with YouTube.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You have
Speaker 2:to be obsessed with what you're doing. And John does that on the creative side. I do that on the business side.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And and you have such cool perspective where, you know, you're working at you're working with Jimmy. You said there are 200 employees now. How many employees were there when you the day that you left? Do you remember a 100 ish or
Speaker 2:I started working with Jimmy when he had, like, 35,000,000 subscribers. Yeah. So when he was, like, you know, PewDiePie was over a 100, Jimmy was at like 30 or 40. I think they had about 50 to 60. I think by the time I left, they had around a 100.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And they're at 200 now. But I've been, I left in August of 21 22. K. So I signed John in August of 21.
Speaker 2:We left in August of 22. So in this August will be 2 years since I've, like, worked hands on with Jimmy, but I still I still hang out with them and I go out to Greenville sometimes. James is a good buddy of mine. He goes over the house and we go hunting and shit.
Speaker 3:But I would imagine that has to be one of the coolest moments of your life going from the biggest of the big from a creator perspective. And, obviously, John was a really close buddy. You said he's like your baby. I'm sure you believed him more than anything. Brother of mine.
Speaker 3:But you're still He's my talent baby. Your talent baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah. My talent baby.
Speaker 3:And I would imagine it's still somewhat of a leap of faith. Right? Because it's, like, he's, like, I'm leaving. I'm not happy at night.
Speaker 2:But he was like, by the way, I'm not gonna leave you. I still want you to be my manager. Yeah. I'm not gonna have anyone else manage me, but I also don't wanna be at this management company.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so now your task was just building everything out. I
Speaker 2:was petrified. I was like I was like fuck, man. I was like, I got in here, work with Jimmy. But I believed in John so much, and I had so much conviction in what he was doing, what we were doing together that I was I would have gambled everything on it. Because I just believe in him so much, and he has so so much tenacity and work ethic, and no one works harder than John.
Speaker 2:And it motivates me because he always says the same shit about me. So we have this kind, like, we're both combat vets, and we're both very, like, we're very, like we're very similar in a lot of ways. We're very different in others, and that's what makes us a good team. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So Yeah. There's something special about having that unwavering belief in somebody else's talent too. Like, you see, he probably believes in himself. Obviously, he's doing the work. He's putting all the work in, getting all the reps in, but he's, like, this close to the work he's doing.
Speaker 2:To tell stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He
Speaker 2:wants to be a storyteller.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And he wanted to be a business, and he wanted to grow a business, but he didn't wanna do it himself.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right? He wanted to focus on creating, and that's what a good CEO manager will do. Make them give them what they want. You wanna just create? Let's just get you to just be the creative guy.
Speaker 2:Let's get you just to be the storyteller. Let's get you just to be the on screen teller, all that shit. He's still very involved in every step of the way in a quality control perspective. But when it comes to running the business, that's my ground, that's my territory. I don't try it on his, you don't try it on mine.
Speaker 2:When he feels passionate about something on the business side, he tells me, we talk about it. And like I said, a manager number 1, CEO number 2. If John thinks it's a good play and I can justify it from a business perspective, we're doing it. Mhmm. But for some reason, which we haven't come across, but if we do, and it's not the right business decision, we'll, like, go and dive deeper and figure out, well, what's the right way to do it, but we haven't come across that.
Speaker 2:When and John's instincts are are so good. When he feels something, he's dead on. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So That's amazing. Like, having that level of trust is incredible. It actually reminds me a lot of, like, not exactly, but kinda how Brett and I got going. We started writing on Twitter, and we were writing these threads. And there was just, like, this obsessive nature to the research Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And then going through the writing process, writing these long form threads, talking about the history of food. And then we would be going back and forth, like, editing each other's stuff, talking about, you know, what was the next thread, making sure we had the hooks right, had all the pictures right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there was just this this nature of the creative process where both of us were actually at the time, I said this the other day. I was like, I really I I can't believe that that was an actual time period of our life where that was basically both of our singular focuses was just creating and putting all of our effort into that one thing.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And now we're being spread thin in different ways, but just having that that focus to be able to just, you know, like what John's doing, telling these stories. It's like it's so powerful when you can get that level of of, just passion thrown into the the the art that you're creating. Yeah. It's it's rare.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. It's like it's the the perfect storm. You know? He hit lightning in a bottle. Man, many times he's hit lightning in
Speaker 3:a bottle.
Speaker 2:You know, once it was TikTok, then he moved it to to YouTube, then YouTube to podcast, then podcast this. It's his community, the Strange Arc SERIOUS community is is powerful. And he's so connected with his his audience. You DM him, he might DM you back. Most likely will DM you back.
Speaker 2:That's his shit. Community posts, engage with his audience. He's always on Discord. He's on Discord once a week. He's always talking to his fans.
Speaker 2:When he does live events, he does q and a's. He's he's involved. He cares. And that authenticity is so different between digital and traditional. Because, like, say you see David Beckham on the soccer field.
Speaker 2:Alright. Well, he has a lot of fans. They love to watch his games. They might buy his jersey. Maybe they buy his cologne, but he's not, like, engaged in his community.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right? David, don't reach out to me and kick my ass, please. But, you know, that's the difference between digital and traditional. Digital, you're every week.
Speaker 2:Every week you're putting up content. We put up 3 pieces of John content a week. Main pod, medical mysteries, and, his YouTube channel, plus all the other stuff. TikTok and social and Facebook and Snapchat and all that other shit. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they're constantly engaged. You see Jimmy every week. You see him TikTok everywhere. You see him on he's everywhere. And so you don't get that same effect of community that you get in traditional that you get in digital.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And that's why digital is, like, that's that's where that's what's gonna be the the new frontier. And we're already there, but we're still in the Wild West phase.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean, guys like Stallone. Right? Stallone is, like, you know, his daughters are awesome. They have TikTok. They do this.
Speaker 2:They're, you know, they're they're figuring out the social aspect of it. He's, you know, staying as relevant as ever, and he's been doing this 50 years. But even he's like, oh, man. I need to start looking at digital. I start looking at YouTube, and he start looking at TikTok.
Speaker 2:He started, like, where can I have these these this build this community? You know, I built this brand, but where do I build this community? Mhmm. You do that in the digital space.
Speaker 3:We we need to get sly on the pod
Speaker 2:at some point. Oh, dude. I'm do you guys watch the documentary?
Speaker 3:Oh, so it was so fucking good.
Speaker 2:I was in I was in Greenville. I was seeing Jimmy and and James, and I was in Greenville, stamped to Hilton. Shout out to the Hilton in Greenville. And, I have my Netflix account. Sly thing just came on.
Speaker 2:I'm watching it. I'm sending videos to John. I'm like, dude, this is us. This is us, dude. This is so cool.
Speaker 2:Like, it was Yeah. It's fact because you don't know where you're gonna go, but you just have so much conviction and and, like, love for what you're doing, and you don't know where you're gonna end up. And Sly's been doing this for fucking 50 years. Yeah. Rambo, Rocky, what's the other one?
Speaker 2:Expendables. Like, his brand is so good. It's just gnarly.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he looks great.
Speaker 3:He looks incredible. And I think there's, like, this relatability.
Speaker 2:He's so good looking.
Speaker 3:Yeah. He's a stud he's just He's gonna be
Speaker 2:he's the last big movie star man. Like, you know, he's, like, 75 or something like that. I mean, you know, Chris Pratt, like, he's a stud. You get these guys like, Henry Cavall who did, you know, Watcher or The Witcher or something like that and some other good ones. But, like, you know, Stallone, Snipes, just like these just household names.
Speaker 3:Schwarzenegger. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude. It's just they're just institutions. Yeah. But they're all getting into digital. Right?
Speaker 2:So Yeah. It's interesting how this will be defeated. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's a
Speaker 2:person with their iPhone in their basement making some YouTube videos. Literally.
Speaker 3:They'll defeat the gatekeepers. It's interesting too how these guys that have been so on top for such a long time, even at that age, they're still iterating and realizing that digital is the next frontier and they're
Speaker 2:creating potty. What else are they gonna do? Yeah. I made up my $100,000,000, and I'm just gonna sit and do nothing Yeah. For someone who's so creative and coming up with creative ideas all the time Yeah.
Speaker 2:What other outlet do you have? Yeah. You don't. You're just wasted ideas. Like, you know, those like, if you're a creator, I don't care if you're Stallone or you're John or you're Jimmy or whoever, you wanna create.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:You know,
Speaker 2:John and I laugh about this all the time. Oh, what are you gonna do in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? I mean, shit. Probably gonna be running the big ass media company. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. We might have other businesses and other things like that, but, like, I mean, John just loves storytelling. Mhmm. You know, to the core. And he's so authentic and how he does things so good.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I have that aspect with business, you know, and I even think like, oh, what am I gonna do after this, you know? So I I don't I don't wanna stop.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You actually bring up a a good point and Harry touched on it before where the probably the most fun that we've ever had was, like, 2022 because it was such a singular focus on content creation and telling these stories and trying to help people. Zero clue what it was gonna turn into. We just had this amazing feeling behind it. And then Conviction.
Speaker 3:Conviction. And then you start to do well. You start to monetize all these different legs of business start getting built out. And 2023 was an amazing year, but we felt like we got away from, like, the heart and soul of the creation that grew the brand in the first place. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Your attention gets spread thin.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it feels like a chicken or the egg thing maybe for a lot of creators and this is kind of personal advice for us, but just any creator in general, like, what's that sweet spot for the creator to still have their hands in the business but also make time for that creation that's gonna push everything to the next level.
Speaker 2:Creator has to be on screen. They gotta be the idea generator, and they gotta be the quality control expert because they know their brand more than I can get about 95% to where John will be like, yep. That's what I would do. Yep. That's what I like.
Speaker 2:That's what I you know? So that's why we work really well together. Hey, John. What do we wanna do? I wanna do this.
Speaker 2:Alright. Do we wanna do this? Yes or no? Yes. 0 to 1.
Speaker 2:I take it to 1 to with, you know, other people on the team, of course. Jeremy, one of our he's our lead editor. He's been working with John as long as I've been working with John, so he was his editor. It was John and Jeremy when I came on. And Jeremy and I can get it pretty close.
Speaker 2:And then now a lot of people at the company are really understanding the brand, the quality control side of it. And so creators need to say, on the camera, creating and quality control. And then they have to fill all the other gaps. So to your point, it's probably when do I fill those gaps?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I looked at John, I'm like, you can't create any more content. If you're topic finding, researching, writing, filming, recording, and thumbnail, and title, and all this other shit. Alright. Probably need to get you an assistant for the menial tasks. Cool.
Speaker 2:Alright. Hey, Jeremy, do we need do we need another editor? Yes. Because we are gonna do an audio show. Okay.
Speaker 2:Cool. Well, do we have bandwidth to write that other show? No. We don't. Okay.
Speaker 2:So we need a writer. Alright. But what about topic finding? Well, let's start figuring out topic finding. Right?
Speaker 2:So you gotta dissect your business and go, where can I start delegating to keep you front and center on those three things?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Being on screen, thinking of the ideas, maintaining quality control, and have everyone else do the rest. So I'm like, okay. We need the topic finder. We need a researcher. We need a writer.
Speaker 2:Alright. How do we find them? I don't know. Let's figure it out. You know, we hired a consulting service to help us build out hiring metrics and, you know, re, essentially essentially, what is it, the process to hire?
Speaker 2:Because you gotta, like, train people. Well, how do we train them? Well, we don't have training documents. Well, what is training? Well, let's start building out a training manual.
Speaker 2:So you gotta build all this infrastructure to get you to the place where you can find the right applicants and then bring them in and then try to train them. If you can't train them, gotta let them go. Get new ones in. Okay. We found we found I got a topic finder.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Done. Guess what? That got John x amount of hours a week back. Found a researcher for research packets.
Speaker 2:Got him extra time back. Boom. So all that extra time back, he gets to go and be creative, be on screen more, quality control more, and then you just keep them in that position because of where they wanna be. If they, for example, Preston, right, he's a big YouTube channel. He's awesome.
Speaker 2:I worked with him when I was at night. Love him. Shout out to Preston. He was very involved in the business. He's a business guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So he loved that piece. So he'll always stay in that part of the business. You know, John's like, I don't wanna be part of the business side. I wanna be involved in the in the conversations, and I wanna be involved with my brand.
Speaker 2:But on the business side, Nick, I trust you to handle that. And when you don't know, you always come to me. If you don't think the vibe is right or the creative is right or whatever, you always flag it for me. I get my input. You get it there.
Speaker 2:We send it. We go. Right? So creators are now in a position where if they wanna build a business, they need a CEO. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that's really the next big push for creators. How do we find CEOs for creators that can work with talent and also build a business and build a business the creator wants? Like, I'm not building a business I want. I'm building a John that I'm building a company that John wants. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm just doing it on his behalf, and he trusts me to do that. It took a while to get there, of course, but, you know
Speaker 1:What, what's the point what's the inflection point of, like, John being, like, I need a CEO or, like, I need a manager? We were
Speaker 2:we were at so so John so John, like I said, you know, traditional talent is always, my phone down. Sorry. It's vibrating the fuck out of me. So, John, when I reached so when I got to Knight Media, I was like, okay, to be a manager, you gotta sign a client. I'm like, well, what kind of client do I want to work with?
Speaker 2:I've always worked with veterans in Hollywood. I even started a veteran hiring program at William Morris. It was called vets to exec, and it was getting veterans hired in entertainment careers, which I knew from my background was fucking impossible. Yeah. But I did it, so let's figure out a way to do it for other people.
Speaker 2:So we hired 7 veterans in the 1st year of that program, all from non USC, non UCLA schools. Cal State Northridge, Cal State Fullerton, San Diego, San Diego State, all that shit. So I was like, I don't want to feed the machine on the shit that it's already feed getting fed by USC, UCLA. By the way, great schools, but if you want diversity and inclusion, you gotta go outside that bubble. When I was at night, Giacomo flagged John for me, and he was blown up on TikTok, blown up on YouTube, and he's like, hey, man.
Speaker 2:We've been trying to sign this guy for, like, 8 months. He just doesn't give a fuck. He don't care. Because to him, he's a 30 year old male with kids and a wife. And by the way, Amanda's incredible.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Holds on the fort. Shout out to Amanda. But he's making videos from his iPhone in his basement. What the fuck is a manager in? What's an agent?
Speaker 2:That's that's traditional shit. He's not an actor, he's not an athlete, he's not a musician. That doesn't make sense. But, when when I was told that, I'm, like, yeah, of course. I looked at the the the field and I was, like, there's 4 managers at night.
Speaker 2:I'm like, there's no way any of these managers, by the way, they're all great. None of them could handle working for John. Because it's just working with veterans and combat veterans and operators, it's so different. I mean, these guys are trained, like, everything from surveillance, intel, counter intel, like, you know, interrogation, everything. Like, they will see through you like no one's business.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're trained. And so when I reached out to John, I was like, well, I'm a combat vet. I've worked with vets. I'm a vet myself.
Speaker 2:I'm fucking weird. I'm crazy. I'm I'm I'm loony, whatever.
Speaker 3:I'm strange, dark, mysterious. I'm strange,
Speaker 2:dark, mysterious. Let's fucking go. And, so I reached out to John. I was like, Jock, give me his email and snipe around. I was like, subject line, love your content.
Speaker 2:Or I'm a combat veteran, love your content. Body of the paragraph. I work for mister Beast. I'm his manager. I'm also a lawyer.
Speaker 2:I worked in in traditional talent, you know, on the agent path at William Morris. I love your show. If you have anything going on, I'd love to be helpful. Not trying to sign you, just want to be helpful. You know, go back to my my tenants when I worked with Amir, just be helpful.
Speaker 2:And he reached back out, he's like, hey, man. And it's funny because in that time, he was burning out. He was getting beat up. He's just the grind of putting out so much content would crush anyone. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this dude's a seal, so he pushed way through the burnout period. And we got on a call, set a call, and I was like, did it. We're good. Get on the call. No no show.
Speaker 2:I'm like, fuck. It's like, alright. He definitely doesn't want to manage.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I
Speaker 2:give him, like, a week. I respond back on the email thread. Hey, man. Not trying to bother you. You know, we had a call last week.
Speaker 2:Didn't show up. No big deal. If you want any you know, if you have any thoughts or any deals come by and you want me to give some thoughts on it, happy to help. He's, like, fuck, dude. Sorry.
Speaker 2:My basement flooded. He's living in in New Hope, Pennsylvania at the time. He's like he's like, can you get on a call now? I was like, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Let's go. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's go. We get on the call and just like I said, you know, he's an interrogator, he's an intel guy, he's an operator, he's this, could see right through me. He was just like, I don't know what it is, but I feel comfortable with you, and I don't think you're gonna fuck me over, so I'm willing to give you a shot, and started working together. And the 1st brand deal I got him 1st brand deal he did before was like $5. And I was doing deals for Jimmy, so I knew the market rate for this guy.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. 1st deal I get him is a $150. Holy shit. He's like, is this real? I go, it's real as fuck.
Speaker 2:You wanna sign it? He's like, yes. I go, let's go. And that was the first deal we did.
Speaker 3:So that that's why he's literally your baby. Absolutely. I mean, from his I mean, you're changing you're helping to change his family's life at that point.
Speaker 2:I was he let me partake. Let you partake. He let me he let me in. And for that, I'll be ever grateful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I always think about that moment when he let me in. And that meant that meant a lot to me. Mhmm. You know, Knight couldn't sign him. They never would have signed him.
Speaker 2:I came in. I signed him, and I did everything right by John. Yeah. I never fuck I never did a bad deal. I I stepped away from deals I didn't think were good.
Speaker 2:Never put a shitty deal in front of them. I know I always looked at the brands. Is this gonna elevate our brand? Is this gonna take from our brand? If it's gonna take from our brand, well, you're gonna have to pay us a lot of money if you want to do that, but we never will.
Speaker 2:Never have and never have or, you know, never will. But, that's just going back to the other tenant, caring. You have to care about them. You have to put them first, not your pocket ever. And a lot of agents and managers, hey, man, you wanna do this deal?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a good deal. You're gonna give me 30 grand. Oh, yeah. It's gonna be awesome. So they can get 10%, 20%, or whatever.
Speaker 2:And to me, it wasn't about that. You do good work, and you work really hard, the money will follow. And then to your other point, it was 1, do you need a manager? And then what was the inflection point of when we needed to hire? So I think we're about 6 or 7 employees in, and I was armchair quarterback and CEO.
Speaker 2:But I was also a manager, and I was managing Jimmy. And I was getting pressured to go sign more clients because that's what a manager needs to do. You need to have a roster of clients. But I just felt it in me that there's something special here, and I wanted to go deep. So I was like, I'm not gonna sign any more clients right now.
Speaker 2:I wanna hyper focus on John and Jimmy, do my best for them, and that's what I wanna do. And then at about 7 employees because I didn't want to step in as his CEO. He needed to ask me. Mhmm. Because I wasn't gonna just bully my shit in, like, what's like, if it's in the best interest of your client, then you're gonna respect those boundaries.
Speaker 2:And John was, like, listen, man. You know, do you mind kind of stepping in and kind of, you know, wrangling the cats? I was, like, sure, dude. Fuck you. So I was impromptu CEO, And then we got to about 10 employees, I think, by the time we left.
Speaker 2:Night. But yeah. So about 6 or 7 employees is gonna be hard for for a creative for a creator who wants to just create, not wanting to be the business guy at about that point. So probably between 3 to 5 employees, you probably need an operator.
Speaker 3:That's great. So from cold email to CEO of Ballon Studios, it's pretty incredible, dude. I mean, this is Very blessed. Do this. I know you're super blessed, super hardworking.
Speaker 3:I felt like we learned 30 new things about you. Yeah. We just met last week. I felt like I know you longer than that now.
Speaker 2:And Mills is I love Mills.
Speaker 3:He's the best.
Speaker 2:I got a huge bro crush on him. I've only known him 3 weeks.
Speaker 3:He's unbelievable. Yeah. He's, like, one of the biggest
Speaker 2:And I told Jacques about this. I'm, like, dude, Jacques connects me to people and he's never wrong. I'm, like, man, in a past life or in the next life, you would make an incredible manager. He's just got a knack for talent Yeah. For talented human beings.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And so, Jock connect me to Mills and then obviously, you guys were there and we we hung out and you guys have awesome energy. I'm stoked for you.
Speaker 3:Appreciate it, man. Yeah. We're excited to see what this leads to and I just really appreciate you sharing. There's so many good life lessons about life, business, etcetera. There's so much value that you shared.
Speaker 3:So we appreciate it, dude. And just congrats on all this success and
Speaker 2:what's what's to come. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thanks, man. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's been an honor.