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What are feelpinions? - Ali shares her definition and how she views it through a Dialectical Behavioural lens of logic and emotion. Sam elaborates why all extremes are mutually constitutive and why logic needs emotion and emotion needs logic, Joe however, wants more facts.
We ask how do feelpinions affect our day to day? Are they needed to run the country or just good value in the cricket group chat?
We share what sources we use to get our facts and how the perceived value of those facts influence how we feel about them. Ali likes her ritual of subscription news, Joe enjoys paid substack articles from bloggers while Sam prefers primary sources and secondary analysis.
Can we trust our feelings and how do we manage our feelings when the facts feel terrifying? We explore how we manage the balance of fear with facts.
We appreciate your feedback, if you want to reach out you can you can find us on instagram and threads @thetenthousandthingspodcast
Episode image by Craig, catch more of his great stuff on the gram
We ask how do feelpinions affect our day to day? Are they needed to run the country or just good value in the cricket group chat?
We share what sources we use to get our facts and how the perceived value of those facts influence how we feel about them. Ali likes her ritual of subscription news, Joe enjoys paid substack articles from bloggers while Sam prefers primary sources and secondary analysis.
Can we trust our feelings and how do we manage our feelings when the facts feel terrifying? We explore how we manage the balance of fear with facts.
We appreciate your feedback, if you want to reach out you can you can find us on instagram and threads @thetenthousandthingspodcast
Episode image by Craig, catch more of his great stuff on the gram
- (00:00) - Theme
- (00:19) - Introduction
- (00:31) - Definition, and fact checking is for other people
- (01:24) - Are opinions a problem?
- (01:59) - The wise mind - dialectical behaviour therapy
- (03:33) - Recognising error and culpability, exalted being / worthless being
- (04:44) - Extremes make each other - cops make hippies and hippies make cops
- (06:10) - They stole the presents from under the Christmas tree
- (08:47) - Speaking with an authoritative tone
- (09:59) - Feelpinions in sport
- (11:13) - The ideal republic governed by detached intellectuals?
- (11:54) - Subscribing to writers of long articles on Substack
- (13:48) - Rational to feel sick about wind turbines?
- (17:14) - SamGPT
- (17:59) - Paying someone to tell you what to think
- (19:11) - Joe used to read the Economist, and pay for it
- (19:30) - If you pay, you value it
- (21:32) - Noah Smith and Matt Yglesias
- (22:02) - Paying to get a better quality of opinion - The Age and Guardian suck now
- (25:13) - Following Ukraine conflict through bloggers, Telegram, and academics
- (27:35) - The incentive is to spread rumour
- (28:05) - The Age is very bad now - in case we didnt already say that
- (29:14) - Crowd funded blog journalists, Matt Yglesias, NoahPininion, Matt Taibbi
- (29:44) - The market beats us all out of shape in the end
- (30:02) - I'm interested once it becomes old news
- (30:44) - Why does Putin wanna kill me with a nuke?
- (31:22) - Putin will sort all the problems out
- (31:50) - MAGA still matters? Yes, and no. Christian Identity and Maga Communism
- (33:10) - So you guys aren't worried about facts being hard to establish?
- (33:22) - Is the Montana survivalist actually crazier than the Christian fascist?
- (33:50) - Planning for a future, what future? Losing a parent young
- (35:06) - Don't worry, we all love facts
- (35:24) - Distrusting your feelings
- (36:41) - Nixon didn't blow up Vietnam, not with nukes anyway
- (37:38) - I just need to talk this stuff through sometimes / don't worry about things you can't change
- (39:10) - Douglas Murray - read the news for five minutes only. Also he seems fash
- (39:59) - ABC News app
- (40:25) - Podcast recommendations
- (42:25) - Centrist and the lure of false rationality
- (43:10) - People don't read the articles we share
- (43:59) - Who would I send this to? No one, that's who
- (44:36) - Joe shoulld have his own feed: breaking down centrist coverage
- (45:24) - Michael Schellenberger
- (46:05) - The end of the world is not the end of the world
- (47:00) - The algorithm treats us to the dialectic, too much of this, and now, too much of the other
- (48:06) - Joe Rogan and Greta Thunberg
- (49:33) - Joe Rogan before he was really big
- (51:10) - Lucky to have wise friends
- (51:41) - Feelings help absorb the facts
- (52:55) - A vague sense that we might muddle through
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Ten Thousand Things?
Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.
Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)
Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: Hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Lowe.
And I'm Ali
Joe: Kachamatos.
Today on the show, Feelpinions.
Definition.
Definition.
What about Ali?
Ali
Sam: might
Ali: have...
Feel opinion?
I feel like it's, well, it's a,
it's an opinion I think deeply
rooted in an emotional response.
There's an emotional...
Behind the opinion.
So it's not necessarily based in fact.
Joe: Hmm.
It's what?
95% of the internet.
Sam: Yeah, for sure.
Ali: It's 95% of what
we all say all the time.
I don't think we're all fact
checking ourselves most of the time.
It's just fact checkings for other people.
Yeah.
It's the ABC.
Sam: That's right.
Well, no fact checkings for
people you don't like, you know,
but like, yeah, that's right.
So what we're saying is not
because we need to separate.
We need to separate the kind of ordinary
subjectivity from like the normal, the
normal sense of bias like that we ascribe
to people for like, Oh, well that person
would say that cause they're rich or
they would say that cause they're poor
or they would say that cause they're this
uh, this identity, but like deeper than
Joe: that.
But just to set up the
topic, yeah, few opinions.
I'm going to say, if your
opinions are a problem, do we
agree that they're a problem?
Sam: Well, I'm not, I'm not, I
don't, I'm going to hedge my bets.
Joe: Right.
Cause what I would like is more facts.
Sure.
No, no, no.
Like facts are great.
Imagine if say, I enjoy facts.
Imagine Vladimir Putin had a few
more facts and a few less opinions,
he might not have invaded Ukraine.
For example, same with say, the
US and Afghanistan, like facts are
good things, I'm a fan of facts.
Ali: They are, but I think, so in DBT,
and we've talked about this before, the
dialectical behavioural therapy, and
they have the concept of the wise mind,
and all decisions come back to the wise
mind, which is It's a Venn diagram and one
part is emotion and one part is rational.
And so that would be your facts, logic,
the things that are real and then how you
feel about it is also just as important.
It's actually real.
It's actually
Sam: really important.
It's an objective fact itself though.
Yeah.
Because that's a state that
the A body is experiencing.
Ali: Yeah.
And so.
Yeah.
The wise mind is way to proceed mindfully
through decisions is somewhere in the
middle where there's overlap between until
we are taking into account how you feel
about something just as much as the facts
and that's probably the right decision.
It can't all be emotional the time it
can't be all rational all the time.
Like there'll be, there'll be moments
and some things where it will obviously
all be your feelings or all be all facts,
but for the most part, both actually play
a role in the decisions that we make.
But social
Sam: media, that's, that's the
app for today, everyone, Ali's
Ali: cross smash.
That's an A plus from a
psychologist from that one.
I remember that.
But
Joe: we're all, we're not
all getting treatment for
borderline personality disorder.
No,
Sam: no, no, that's true.
But because
Joe: that is a treatment
for that, isn't it?
It's used for lots of different things.
I thought it was almost always.
for borderline.
No, no.
I mean, it's, it's used for that too.
It's gold standard
treatment for borderline.
For borderline,
Ali: but it's, but it's
used for lots of different,
Joe: yeah.
Dialectical behavioral therapy.
Sorry.
I'm the one doing tangents.
Sam: No, no, no.
You're right.
No, but I think DBT is exactly what's...
It's
Ali: repackaged cognitive
behavioral therapy, really.
Yes, it
Sam: is.
Yeah.
Um, that's right.
But I think maybe there's a...
I think the idea of getting at the
wisdom of the subject's judgments
is part of therapy, right?
So, let's all agree that it doesn't
matter what kind of therapy you're
doing, one of the most powerful things
you can do is recognize your previous
errors, and we've talked about this
before, and like taking account of
them, like rationally taking account
of them, but also being accountable
for them and accepting responsibility,
and also Accepting that which you were
not responsible for at the same time.
Right?
So rationally separating out culpability
and responsibility into piles of like,
otherwise you're trapped between the
twin poles of, uh, which I discovered
in therapy, exalted being worthless
being, which it basically corresponds
perfectly to my opinions are right.
How dare you challenge them and.
Oh, I'm actually a dumbass who
doesn't know anything, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so basically, most people on the
internet are swinging wildly between
Joe: those two poles.
Have you ever thought that about
yourself, Sam, that you're a
dumbass who doesn't know it all.
Absolutely.
But
Sam: what's the flip
side of being a know it
Joe: all?
Why?
But why is that?
Why would there be a flip side?
Because, no,
Sam: because I've pretty much said that
from the start of this show that all
extremes are mutually constitutive, right?
So you've got, if you've got like
a Basically, MAGA people need the
Libtards and vice versa, right?
They create each other.
They're
Joe: complementing each other.
Ah, yes.
Ram Dass said, cops create hippies and
hippies create cops, hippies create cops.
Got it in one.
I don't get it.
I, I, I can say what Ram Dass
said and I can dig that that was
cool, but I don't quite get it.
Sam: What it's saying,
what it's saying is.
The hippies are kicking back against
the established order and cops are
reactionary at best and fascist at
worst and they, uh, automatically
perceive any threat to just the
established order as automatically bad.
They create each other.
They create each other to a degree.
Obviously the cops pre exist
hippies, but the, the problem of.
Needing fascist bully boys is a problem
created by the fact that people just
won't do as they're told from the
point of view of authoritarians, right?
So you've got to solve that
problem by like having this like
stick to hang over people's heads.
And by the way, ACAB 101.
Cops are not there to solve
crimes and prevent crimes.
They're there to protect private
property from the masses.
All right, so that's just
sort of anarchism 101.
And you are
the
Joe: only private property owner
on this podcast, so That's right.
Me and Ellie have got like nothing to
Ali: steal.
That's right.
That's right.
When I call the cops, they come.
She always worries.
She's like, Oh, you know, you off.
You always leave.
Cause I'm always leaving the house
unlocked and things like that.
And she's like, I'm like, they're
literally going to steal nothing.
I have nothing.
Like, please take
Sam: my stuff.
I said, Oh bro.
Like if the, when the junkie comes
in your front window, you say.
There's where the
valuables are off you go.
Yeah,
Joe: I'd be dark on the laptop
and that'd be about it I really
Ali: have nothing that they could
take that I would be angry about.
No, just like
Sam: that guy needed it more than
me Yeah, I'll help him carry it out.
Yeah, pretty
Joe: fucking Zen Capitalist pig dog.
Ali: I've been robbed twice like home
robbery and um the only and the first
time they stole my grandmother's jewelry
and so that, so for, so part of me was
really heartbroken about that because
she died only about 12 months before.
So I was still quite, it was,
it was, it was fresh and I
was really upset about that.
And then the second time we got robbed.
It was Christmas Eve and they'd
actually stolen all the presents
under the Christmas tree.
And we had, and we had a little, like,
this is when my son was really little.
So he was still very, much believed
in Santa and we had nothing to
like on the morning, like we
had to like go and wrap up some.
It's just some odds and ends just
to have something under the tree.
It was really, it really
was, it was so horrible.
How do you get to the point if you
like where you stole all the presents?
Yeah.
Joe: Oh my God.
It was horrible.
A drug could possibly
Ali: be worth that.
Yeah.
So I mean, no matter how bad of a
situation I was in and how annoyed
that like, yeah, Christmas presents
had been stolen, I was not the
person who was resorting to stealing.
Stealing someone's Christmas
presents under their tree.
Like I feel for that person, really.
That
Sam: is brutal.
Joe: Yeah.
All right.
So back to the topic.
Feel opinions.
What
Sam: I feel like, and of course
the cops were no use in those
circumstances, were they?
Not before, not during
Joe: or after.
But see Sam, the way you
present things right, and maybe
it's because you're autistic.
Is that yes, you know facts.
Yes.
So you can explain what a
police officer is, right?
Look, I don't should, I don't
should talk for what you just said.
Most people probably wouldn't agree with.
No, that's true.
Let's just say, let's just
limit it to Australia.
Most people in Australia wouldn't agree.
that cops are, okay, I'll tell you why
the difference on a negative thing, right?
The way you present your stuff is
as if it's a fact, which is why I
wanted to talk about field opinions.
Cause it's like your classic
example of basically what we're
all doing, which is having these
field opinions, presenting them as.
To get to facts, you've got to
back shit up with like numbers
Sam: and stuff, right?
Ali: Look, I just said it was an app.
I think that's part of it, but I do think
also speaking with a sense of authority
in an authoritative tone can also convey
something in the same sort of way, in
the way you are feeling like it's a
fact, when it might not be based in that.
Joe: But as a straight white
guy, I talk about things in
authoritative tones all the time.
Yeah.
So,
Ali: and
Sam: exactly.
Yes, that's true.
Joe: Now, I have no, no, almost nothing.
I've very few facts, which is why
I come across as self obsessed
because I've worked out in the last
few years to just stick to what I
do know, which is sort of just me.
Yeah.
And the rest is unknown.
Yeah.
Sam: But, but the confidence.
Even the self is unknowable
to a degree, you know, so it's
Joe: like.
Oh yeah.
But like the confidence is still there
because of my conditioning, right?
That's true.
But Sam, on the other
hand, knows a lot of stuff.
Yes.
Like a lot of information has gone in
at some point before he stopped reading
books and it's in, and it's in there.
And it very
Ali: reliably comes out as, as facts
and, and actual statistics and numbers
and the ability to recall what.
Information in real, in such
Joe: detail that it's, yeah.
Sam: So I only Philpinions, and
doing yourself a disservice,
because you've probably got an
excellent recall of cricket facts,
Joe: for example.
Yeah, like I'm, but Philpinions and
cricket go together really well,
and what you create, hopefully,
is fun group chat content.
That's true.
Right?
And that's what I'll do, and
that's what I'll be doing tonight.
Yeah.
Right?
But, but...
I think it's very problematic that so
much of, what am I really talking about?
I guess I'm talking about
how shit Twitter is.
Well, I
Sam: feel opinion, I feel opinion is that
all Collingwood supporters have bad teeth.
And then I guess you might hold that
opinion in either a joking manner or
like my mother in law, God bless her.
Love her.
I'm like, yeah, it's just a
fun thing we say, isn't it?
Granny.
And she's like, no, they
Ali: really are awful.
I have a colleague that's
supported by the way.
Sam: But also like it's for some, for
some sport is often a great way to
illuminate any kind of idea in sociology.
Well, not any, but a lot.
So for example, the idea that your team
is the best in the world, no matter what.
But here's a more interesting one.
Other people's teams
cheat, mine doesn't, right?
So that's like, that's a classic feel
opinion of the sports supporter and
it's putting the cart before the horse.
It's justifying the feeling the
person want to have, wants to have.
So that's what we really
were talking about here.
So obviously You know, kind of rational
platonic, uh, you know, cognition, you
know, the ideal republic governed by
detached intellectuals and so forth.
All of that is dreadfully, uh, um, um,
it's, it's taking us down the wrong path.
So basically Joe's just a nice
old fashioned Platonist who wants
to, he wants the Republic to be
ruled by, by slave owning men.
That are just thorough rationalists.
As long as
Joe: it's completely rational.
Yeah.
In terms of actually running the world.
Not in terms of like what
I do with my spare time.
which is really, it's, yeah.
Cause I'm happy to give 15 Australian
dollars to a guy called Matt Yglesias.
Because he will essentially.
Irrational.
He will essentially just write
what he sees as logic in a
blog over and over again.
And he'll write logic.
And
Sam: sometimes he's even right.
Joe: It's, I don't know,
but it soothes my brain.
As opposed to like trying to expose
myself to Twitter or something
where it's just like, what the fuck?
Sam: But do you, do you feel
Ali: like, I was going to say like
all decisions, like if you had people
running the show who are making.
Decisions purely based on fact
without any emotion at all.
That's a really...
Joe: For running things, yes.
For like building, say,
an aircraft or whatever.
Do we want
Sam: detached ASD people
like me running everything?
You really don't.
You, you, you want...
Joe: But you get...
Imagine how good the
housing outcomes would be
Ali: really good if Sam was running stuff.
Actually, I should be in charge.
But I think...
Again, it comes back, you really need
to have, we are not without emotion,
we are not without feelings, you
cannot, you know, it might be the,
the, you know, based on facts, the
right decision, but there's going
to be a lot of people that will feel
unhappy still about that outcome.
And that needs to be considered
when making the decision.
And like we were talking about the other
week, the Preston market, like you've got.
The facts of the situation and how
the, you know, what the government
owns, what this person owns.
But then the feelings of the
populace who, you know, frequent
the market and love the market.
That actually really matters as well.
Joe: People have different
feelings about wind turbines.
Like they feel like they give them
strange headaches when they don't.
Or they feel like they're
a blight on the landscape.
Whereas I think they look...
Cool.
However, Joe, there should be completely
fucking irrelevant because we really
need the fucking wind turbines.
Right?
So in my perfect logical world, we're
building the wind turbines regardless
of what anyone feels about them.
You know?
Yeah.
Sam: But it turns out
there's a rationalist.
This is, this is really
going to blow your mind.
Turns out there's a rationalist basis
to feeling funny about wind turbines.
So send in the anthropologists
Someone is adjacent to a property
where wind turbines get built.
And how it works is the
landowner is given money.
There's some sort of contract.
they're compensated for the installation
in the first place, and then they receive
like an annual payment after that.
The person next door does
not receive the benefit.
And this is perceived as unfairness.
Because it is imposing a cost on them.
So there's an, there's an
externality which has gone to
the neighbor or there might even
be many neighbors, not just one.
And that person feels as though
something's been, this psychoanalysis
is what the anthropologist concluded.
That person feels that a cost has
been imposed on them, but they
haven't received the benefit.
And rather than connecting with
that rational thought in like a...
Proper way, like, maybe if they person
had done a whole lot of therapy, they
might have been able to work all this out.
But where they end up instead,
is, These are making me sick.
And in a sense they are, but
they're misattributing the
cause and they've arrived at the
right place by the wrong means.
And that's often what feelings do.
And actually facts can take us
to the right place by, uh, by the
wrong means and vice versa as well.
Facts can be enormously misleading
in the, in the wrong hands and at the
right time that facts can be, you know.
So basically putting our faith in
facts is an error and putting our
faith in feelings alone is an error,
Joe: obviously.
Yeah.
So what I wanted to say about Phil
Pinons is that I don't feel like
I have access to almost any facts.
So I've paid these two bloggers quite
a bit of money sometimes, depending
on how busy I am in the film industry.
Like 30 bucks a month is a
lot, but, but their stock in
Sam: trade, Joe is look at us,
look at how detached we are.
Look at how unmotivated
by feelings we are.
You can trust what we're saying
because we are having feeling.
But
Joe: also, we'll read a lot.
This is a masculinist dialectic as well.
I don't have feelings, but what they're
gonna say is, we'll read a lot, and we'll
write blogs, but we will write them from
the point of view of a couple of things.
We want problems to be solved, and
we think some problems can be solved.
But we don't think people
should get upset about drilling.
Whereas the Guardian will
tell me the world is ending.
What?
Sam: Well, yeah, but one of those
saying, no opinion, you know,
don't get upset about drilling.
Biden did the rational
Joe: thing.
They're both pro drilling, they're both
pro drilling, they're both pro drilling
in Alaska, but then the way my mind works
is, I just think, I don't understand
why exactly we need some more oil.
But if they're both telling me we
need some more oil, just in the
short term, even though they're both
write a lot about climate change and
there's hugely concerned about it.
The siren call of
Sam: the reasonable
Joe: man.
Right?
If they say we need some
more oil to help make sure...
Reasonable men will
Sam: lead us to our deaths.
And they've done it
Joe: before and they'll do it again.
And the lower petrol prices will make
the Democrats much more likely to get
elected the next presidential election.
Oh God,
Sam: this is such
tortured logic, honestly.
Joe: Like then And I've paid
my 30, then what happens to me?
And I'm not joking, is their
opinions become my opinions.
Of course.
Sorry, my feel opinions.
Exactly.
But they're good.
They're high quality Sam.
Sam: I agree.
They're better than other
people's feel opinions.
Whereas
Joe: I can ask you, and
I've done an experiment.
Sorry, Ali, I'll jump to you in a sec.
I've done an experiment with Sam
in the last couple of weeks where
I've asked for like a thread
on something and you get like.
Something that you, someone else would pay
15 for on, say, the war in Ukraine, right?
Like, cause Sam can
work at that level too.
I can't.
I'm, I'm confused.
I'm just trying to
Sam: absorb.
I'll set up a sub stack next week, Joe.
Joe: You can subscribe to it.
You won't because you fucking lack
the executive function or whatever
the thing is that gets you around
to getting, doing the thing.
Plus you've got all the Washington fold.
That's true.
But, uh, but, but like chat GPT or
whatever, I can just prompt you and
you'll go, boom, because you've got all
these, all this information at hand.
I don't know, something is highly
motivating me to pay these two people
to tell me everything to think.
Ali: Because you've, it's
a, it's an investment.
It's that sort of, not a sunk
cost fallacy, but in the sense
that you've invested, yeah, the
inverse of that kind of, yeah,
you've, you've, you've spent money.
On this person and you feel good
about it and you're like, okay, I feel
good about giving this month, this
person, my money to, to break down
all this information for me and give
it to me in a really digestible way.
And so of course you, you want to
feel, okay, well I feel like I've
got my value for my money also.
Sam: And what it does, I'd be a sucker
if I paid for like worthless drivel.
Ali: Yeah.
And so, yeah.
And so, and it's also your field opinions,
what it is and you, and you feel looking
closely at your values and you know,
as sort of, you know, Center left, you
know, sort of man who values climate, you
know, believes climate change is real.
These are the practical solutions.
You're paying somebody who's
sort of reinforcing those values.
Yeah.
So that's why you're...
And
Joe: they're both policy nerds too,
so the articles will be quite long.
They'll have a lot of graphs.
They'll have a lot of numbers.
Ali: You'll place more value and weight
Joe: on the things they're saying.
What to is away from my field
opinions and towards some facts.
I've only got so much bandwidth.
So what I used to read is the
entire The Economist magazine.
But
Sam: Ali's got your number here.
Like, the thing you're doing
is highly rational, but it's
irrational, like at the same time.
And, and like, Yeah,
Joe: I sense that it's, it's,
I'm too much of a sponge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
It's got all the right forms
Ali: of validation.
But it's also, yeah.
Being able to sort of take a step
back and cause, cause that's the
thing, you know, like, you know, you
never want to meet your heroes or
someone's going to disappoint you.
You don't want to pay the money and
think, Oh, I don't agree with this.
I feel like I've wasted
my time and my money.
Investing in this.
Oh yeah, see
Joe: I don't need
Sam: to agree.
There is a sunk cost.
Yeah.
And there's a
Joe: validation.
Are you guys paying anyone for news?
Mm.
Sam: For
Ali: news?
Um,
Sam: no.
Well, do you
Joe: pay for any of the
information that you get?
Sam: Well, yeah.
Paying by being subject to
ads, I guess, in that sense.
No, you don't.
You don't.
I'm not having
Ali: Tony's side.
Oh no, I do.
I subscribe to, um, uh, New York
Times and New York Opinion New Yorker.
Yeah.
I think
Joe: that's really good.
I think that's good to have paid for some
of the information that you're reading.
Yes.
With with, with your actual dollars.
Sam: Yes.
Oh, no, no.
I tend to agree with that.
Um, But I often absorb him from, I often,
my sources are in a sense, the person was
already paid to produce that, if you see
Joe: what I mean.
Yeah, but if you never pay...
Then, then journalism.
No, but
Sam: I don't consume journalism, Joe.
I consume primary sources
and secondary analysis,
Ali: but I, I do appreciate
Joe: that.
It's, it's a boring sidetrack.
But, but, but yeah.
No, but like I decided for some
reason in my own head that I could,
I was gonna trust information.
I paid for more than the
information that was advertised
Sam: to me.
No, I think it's good to pay for it.
I do, I do agree with
Ali: that.
It's, it's not even trusting it
more, it's like I enjoy it more.
It's like a little Sunday morning ritual.
Yeah.
And I go to, you know,
like to the New Yorker.
It's get the opinion piece.
It's a long read.
It's I take pleasure in it.
It's something I feel like
I've invested in for myself.
So I'm more likely to read.
Sam: Whereas if pirated
games don't feel as fun.
It's true.
Ali: It's like a, it's like the book.
It's like Poojy
Joe: News.
Yeah.
The New Yorker opinion.
That's the feeling I get from one
of these long sub stack articles.
Yeah.
They've banked up on my phone because
I was unwell and unable to read.
So now 30 to get through.
No, you don't need to get through them.
No, I don't.
I fucking read every single word
and I usually read them within about
five minutes of them coming out.
But that's just how I am.
Wow.
Sam: Yeah.
You're the dream
Ali: subscriber.
Yeah, I let them accumulate for a few
days and then I have to set some time
Joe: aside.
Like if, if, if it drops
into my email inbox.
And I go straight to the substaff,
uh, and I read it straight away.
Do me a
Sam: favor, send this episode
to No Opinion and, and
Matty Glacius, like, yeah.
Joe: Yeah, sure.
I mean, to me, like they live
on another planet, right?
Sam: You'd be surprised how vain they are.
Just like tag them on social
media with the episode.
I'm like, we talk about you in this.
Joe: But so, so, so the, the, the
relevance, the relevance of paying them
or paying the economist was expensive.
It was like 50 bucks a month.
Oh yeah.
That's dear.
And the, the reason again, is I'm
trying to get away from poor quality.
I'm trying to get away from feel opinions.
No, no, no.
I'm a hundred percent.
That is very correct.
The quality of The Age or
The Guardian is so bad now.
Yeah,
Sam: fantastic.
Joe: It got so bad and
I was like, well, The
Sam: Age is the channel nine
newspaper and The Guardian is, let's
just say it's not left or right.
It's its own beast.
Joe: It's apocalyptic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sam: It's like, yeah.
Ali: It's, you just want to feel
bad about yourself for the day.
It's just, yeah.
It's having
Sam: a panic attack about everything.
And they're not a hundred percent wrong.
Yeah.
Terrible thing to say.
Awful slur.
I apologize.
Sorry, say that again.
MAGA people would call the Guardian
libtards and, and, but the truth
is the Guardian is not quite
as unhinged as MAGA media, but
Ali: like, it's not like, I mean,
like, and there's often like
there'll be something really
good and worthwhile in there.
It's not to say that like, I'm
not throwing the baby out with
the bathwater, but there is
Sam: a lot of, they're
victims of the clickbait.
Yeah, the clickbait problem
Joe: is why I was trying to, why I
was happy to spend 50 of my Australian
dollars to give to The Economist, which
worked for a couple of years because
at least then I was getting quality
journalism that wasn't clickbait.
But then, you know, well, no,
they're on the internet too.
So what they started doing was
putting like, uh, updates of like
little bits of information, which
then those little bits of information
stopped being thorough articles.
They started to be rumors, which
is scary to someone with anxiety.
Sam: Because the thing is these
paid outlets, the thing they
really suffer from is that they're
constantly getting scooped by.
People who call themselves
journalists and who don't bother
with, I don't have any scruples
about fact checking the rest of it.
And they know they can only get scooped
so much before their paid subscribers
decide Guys, I'm sick of you not doing
any rumour mongering, so I'm going to
go and get my rumour mongering right.
I'm So they're caught between
Joe: the dilemma of...
So that happened to The Economist,
so then I'm like, I don't really
want that as part of the product.
See,
Sam: stop consuming journalism, primary
sources and everything else can just
Joe: fuck off.
Then the Ukraine war started
and The Economist just went full
propaganda mode and I was like...
Oh, because it had always been a
center right publication, right?
Of course.
But without a war, it just seemed fairly
reasonable, problem solving, organization.
The moment there was a war, it's like,
this pro Zelensky, like, I wouldn't trust
Zelensky as far as I could throw him.
And suddenly there's all this pro
Zelensky propaganda, and it's like, what
the fuck's happened to the economists?
And so, they stopped getting
my money, I unsubscribed.
So then I find there's
two bloggers, right?
And Noah, like, Noah Smith's very pro
Ukraine too, but he's more interested
in, like, how do we build more
cool drones and shit and whatever.
I don't know, it's, it's, it almost
feels like an unsolvable problem to me,
like, I don't know how to find any facts.
If I wanted to follow the Ukraine
war, which I don't, if I did,
I'd be on Telegram, right?
Reading Russian and Ukrainian bloggers.
Right.
Yeah.
That's what I'd be doing.
And I, I've met people on film
sets, well, I consume it now
through during the shoot day.
Yeah.
Just when they get a moment, I
checking it out the telegram mm-hmm.
to see the latest
Sam: thing that's, I've stayed,
I've stayed off Telegram.
I've been very tempted to download it a
hundred times, but I've decided not to.
And it's, it would absolutely
rabbit hole me so fast.
Mm-hmm.
. And what I'm gonna do instead
is what I've always done, I
consume the secondary analysis.
So, and primary, primary
sources and secondary analysis.
So what I mean by that is, I
don't mean firsthand reportage.
I mean, what academics have said prior
to the war and during it, because
there are already papers coming
out and I don't read those papers.
I listen to those people talk
about their paper on an academic
show called the New Books Network.
Well, actually they publish books.
And, well, some books are
really long articles, etc.
You get the idea.
Basically, all that in it's like, oh, but
that information's not up to the minute.
No.
But it's actually so much more
enlightening because it gets
you up to like 12 months ago.
And now, and then there's actually
a book has just dropped about
the first 12 months of the war.
Looking forward to listening to that one.
Just go straight to the people
who are paid by a university
to know about something.
Yeah.
So this whole problem of paying
for journalism, in my mind...
Academics need more exposure to the
public, and journalists don't have
the time to sit down and get across
things properly, like, no offense, but
there's just, and occasionally you get
these hyper specialized journalists,
and they crush it, but they basically
are academics, and the rest, the
rest, I'm sorry, they're useless.
Ali: Yeah.
The majority of them are useless.
Like, unless it's like a long form,
like a, like a, an investigative
piece that there's, you know,
it's been months in the works.
It's their whole job for six months.
Yeah.
And I, I, I, I live for those articles
and like, they, they're brilliant.
And that's the last sort
of, I suppose, like really.
Good quality journalism
that's still out there.
And this, I do believe it is, it's worth
paying for and it's definitely out there,
but, but outside of that, and because
it's so fast moving and it's so fast
paced and like you said, someone's going
to scoop it up and post it on Twitter or
you know, like it's and get it for free.
Like there's, there's no.
There's no incentive to provide
that really good quality of
Sam: journalism.
And there's no disincentive
not to pass on the rumour.
Yeah.
There is, but it's tomorrow's problem.
Today's problem is pass on
Ali: the rumour.
Pass on the rumour and get the ad
sponsorship and like, you know, and
it's just, and yeah, and that's a shame.
Sam: It's a shame.
Basically publicly funded
media is the only answer.
And Well, that's what I've
Joe: ended up with is
I've got the ABC app.
Yeah, yeah.
But then it's like facts
versus Phil opinions.
Okay.
ABC's
Sam: got loads of that in there too.
Don't worry.
But, but what I'm, what I'm
saying is the ABC's got a bit
Joe: of crap, but it's the it's, but it's
Ali: still, if you want
your day to day, 20%
Joe: of the crap that the age has,
like the age is just about what do
you do with all your money in Europe?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like where do your holiday in
Europe and what do you do with
Sam: all it's,
Ali: yeah, I was gonna say like, you know,
Family scoops up property, like in, you
know, in Thornbury for only 4 million.
And then you're like, Oh my
God, this is just like a, like
a, an ad piece for realestate.
com
Sam: and it's a funny
Joe: article.
The age is absolute dog shit.
And I finally had to just walk away.
You've finally
Sam: seen the light.
But yeah, but
Joe: the anxiety journey through
this show, this show has been
going for about 12 months.
Yeah.
My anxiety levels are much lower
than they were around the news.
Look, I
Sam: don't mind these centrist guys,
because they're good for your feelings.
Which brings us back to Feelpinions, which
Joe: is like...
Yeah, I like, they slow my brain down.
Yeah, I like them for that.
Matt Yglesias will have an opinion on
the attempted coup in Russia, and he'll
write two paragraphs on it, and I'll
assume that Matt Yglesias knows a whole
bunch of people who are fucking heaps
smarter and more well informed than me.
Sam: Oh, I dare say he's
got some good sources.
In the
Joe: administration,
Sam: probably.
But Matt Tybee as well.
Look, there's a lot of these...
Loose end journalists out there
that are sort of largely funded
through subscriptions and that
they've got a degree of independence.
But what you need to keep in
mind also is that they become
reliant on their subscribers.
Yeah, so the subscribers are
the proprietor in a sense and
the proprietor is also going to
distort the editorial policy.
So they're going to
Ali: continue to write and investigate
or Write about things that that
Sam: one got opened by everyone.
This other one got ignored.
Exactly.
I'm going
Ali: to make content.
Sam: Yeah.
Yeah.
And what I've noticed, the market
beats us all out of shape in the
Joe: end.
With both of those bloggers is that
they hardly ever write about Ukraine.
And I think Ellie said it the other day,
like she switched off from it largely.
Well,
Sam: yeah.
You know why?
Cause the audience aren't there anymore.
Yeah.
And
Joe: that's what I want
to mental health wise.
But I couldn't get that from, uh, the
economist because it was never going to
Sam: switch off.
So basically.
I'm perverse, I guess.
So I basically did not consume any of the
hot media about the war for 12 months,
and now that it's old news, now I'm tuning
in because there's actually some proper
analysis to be had because we're this
Joe: far into it.
And I think that's wisdom.
Yeah,
Sam: but it's also just more
interesting to me ultimately.
Like, I try to read news and then I
get bored because it's not answering
the questions I want answered.
It's telling me about
something that happened today.
But like, I guess I've just got
just enough historical training
and the anthropology as well.
I'm like, No, no, no.
What happened 10 years ago?
What happened in 2014?
Why did that invasion happen?
Why did Crimea happen?
Why did...
the
Joe: questions just go back and back.
The question for me is a
psychoanalytical question, which
is why do I think Putin personally
wants to kill me with a nuclear bomb?
Oh, that's a great one.
Right?
So, so...
And I think what's happened in the last
12 months is good psychoanalysis, good
addiction recovery work has gone in.
Yeah.
And that's why like, it's not,
I'm not saying I don't care
about the fate of Ukraine.
I'm not saying I don't care
about people dying now.
Sam: I do.
Of course you do.
And that's why you can't pay too much
attention because it's not good for
Joe: you.
But it's different thinking that
Vladimir Putin knows who you are and
wants to kill you with a nuclear bomb.
Or
Sam: that Vladimir Putin wants to
save you from globo homo gender
fascists who want to sissify the boys.
Because that's what the MAGA
people are getting high on, which
is like a field opinion as well.
Just take a moment.
Vladimir is going to give us a masculine,
fascist vision of how the world should
be and that's why we're supporting him.
Everyone's, everyone's high on their
Joe: own supply.
I want you to define this
for me, because I'm confused.
This MAGA stuff, what is this?
Say Trump doesn't get the
nomination, what's MAGA then?
Like, does it, is it, do I have to
pay attention to MAGA even though I
think Trump's probably unelectable?
No,
Sam: the words you need to
think about now, forget MAGA.
Joe: Right, because you've said it
Sam: numerous times in this episode.
You need to think about, I've been
saying it for 12 months, you need to
think about Christian Identity, capital
C, capital I, and you need to think
about, just, good old fashioned white
supremacy, but it will have different
names, it will have unfamiliar sounding
names, British Israelism, uh, there's a
thousand Basically, flavors of fascism
that are, have always been alive and
well in the subsoil of American life.
They're always there, just waiting
to sprout when conditions are right.
And unfortunately, conditions
are super right at the moment.
But the one, none of it
worried me really much at all.
Because the numbers are just
not really on the racist side.
Where it gets interesting is if you
manage to combine a bit of nationalism
with some religious grievance.
And now that they started talking
about MAGA communism, so they're
basically saying, let's do socialism.
For those that deserve it.
And let's make everyone else
subservient to the good people.
Joe: What I'm intrigued by from tonight's
episode is that you two seem a lot less
worried than me about the idea that
it's very hard to establish any facts.
Yeah.
I
Sam: think it's
Joe: always been difficult.
I think that's how we should finish up.
Like, is it just, all right.
So because what you described
is Christian identitarianism.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's call it that.
Right?
So they, they're imagining that future,
but I'm the guy who's with the people
in Montana who are expecting World War
III and the whole world gets blown up.
So I'm actually much more
unwell than a Christian fascist
Sam: when I'm reading the news.
It's all the same degree of...
No,
Joe: but they imagine a future at least.
I couldn't imagine if...
I remember driving past some
infrastructure in the western
suburbs of Melbourne and...
And seeing that it was going to take years
to build these roads, and saying to my
therapist, Wow, people in, the government
in Victoria is planning to build new
roads and stuff, whereas I imagine myself
to just not exist in a couple of years.
Mmm.
And it's like, so, so whatever that
blackness is, whatever that thing
about whether it was because my
dad died when he was 50 years old.
My mum
Sam: died when I was, when
she was my age currently.
Yeah,
Joe: like something has...
It's made me not, made it impossible for
me to imagine a future for the world.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So then my political opinions are...
That's why I can't read the Guardian,
because the Guardian agrees with that.
You should definitely stay
Sam: away from the Guardian.
I
Joe: do stay away.
It's fine.
I can't agree more.
But, but the, but the insight is that
there's something in me that is not well,
but, but I feel like facts are important.
No, you're not wrong.
Facts are an important antidote to that.
Yes, I see what you very
dangerous, they might make you
swerve into an oncoming truck.
Yeah.
Right?
Yes.
But you two seem to not need the facts
Sam: as much.
I see the issue.
No, I think the real issue here is, I
think Ali and I both, uh, love facts.
Yeah, yeah.
As much
Ali: as you do.
Very much.
Like, I.
Yeah.
Like I, and I'm constantly questioning
my, my emotional state or those
behaviors that are born out of that.
I, it's very, I'm very much
like facts, but I think it's,
Sam: I think what it is is
there's a distrust of feelings
on your side of things, Joe.
That's the real issue here.
If you ask me.
And so I think experience has taught you.
Uh, and you know, therapy will bear
this out that you can't afford to trust
your feelings, you know, and some of
them are misplaced feelings to be sure.
And some of them though, unfortunately
are well placed and, and those
are also ones to distrust for it.
The opposite reason, which is they're
actually, they actually might be right.
And they might point me
to something quite grim.
And so.
Often the, the, the accurate feelings
we want to avoid and the inaccurate
feelings we rationally should try to.
Ali: Like, like the, the, the, the, as
I say, the, the probability of something
really horrible happening because Putin
decides to, you know, let off the bomb.
Right.
And is so small, but it's not completely,
it's not completely off the table.
That's right.
So.
But the, the, the reality of
that would just be so horrifying.
It's better not to get
bogged down with that small.
So I mean, that's, that's perhaps where
Sam and I don't get bogged down in
those really small probabilities and
perhaps the facts around things that
are more probable we put more weight to.
Sam: But what Which is an urge you have.
But what is
Joe: Like, I had a really good
conversation with a friend, Cameron,
who's got a history degree and is
following the Ukraine war very closely.
And he explained to me why he
didn't think Putin would launch
a nuclear attack, you know?
And he just said, there was
10 years of war in Vietnam,
the Americans didn't do it.
Nixon woke up in the middle of the night
and told him Even Stalin didn't use the
bomb and, you know, Stalin was a monster.
Yeah, well, Nixon, I've got
Sam: a very comforting story for you.
Nixon woke up, talking of Phil Pinions,
Nixon woke up in the middle of the
night more than once He, you know,
pills, he was having a lot of pills
at that point, pouring sweat, rings
up Kissinger, Henry, drop the bomb.
And then, and then, you know,
Kissinger, well, he's evil
incarnate, but he's rational.
He's your rational, platonic kind of evil.
And he says, he says,
consider it done, Mr.
President, and puts down the phone.
And then the next day, just
no one says anything about it.
And, you know, so that
happened twice, apparently.
Joe: What I was going to say is that.
Actually, I need to talk some
of this shit through sometimes.
Of course!
And the best I can come up with
is pay a couple of fairly, highly
intelligent, rational seeming people
to tell me some information, and
occasionally have some chats with
some people who are paying attention.
Ali: But that's time and money well spent.
But most
Joe: people I notice...
Just aren't that concerned that we could
all die in a nuclear apocalypse, even
though, uh, the country with the most
nuclear weapons just started a massive
Sam: war.
No, but think about it.
It's not rational to invest in
something you can't do much about.
Yes.
Joe: That's, and that's where I'm
Sam: crazy.
Yes.
So the
Ali: rational thing to do.
Because, because Putin's
not going to listen to Joe.
Yeah.
So that, that, that's where I think
you fall down is that you, you, you
feel like if you said enough or spoke
enough or had the right conversation
with the right person, somehow it
would have an impact on the decision.
It's a lack of surrender.
Yeah.
And whereas, whereas yes,
Sam and I have completely and
Joe: everyone else, you
know, 99% of people just go,
Ali: well, most of us are just
like, well, there's literally
nothing we can do about it.
So my time's up.
Sam: My time's up.
If it makes you feel better.
Right.
You, your blind spot is this
thing that most, even dodos
step over that easy, right?
And you've, you're smarter than
them and you've managed to just
fall into this snare, right?
But if it makes you feel any better,
everyone's got the, this thing, like
everyone's got one of those at least.
So all those dodos have some.
Other, more asinine trap,
honestly, that they fall into,
Joe: I've found the best balance
I've ever found so far, which is I
check the, Douglas Murray said this.
Douglas Murray, who is very right
wing, is probably the most right
wing guy's books I've ever read.
Yep, he's a gateway
Sam: to Christian identity
and a few other things.
Watch out for that, Joe.
By the way, you're in the demographic.
Disempowered middle aged man.
Joe: Sure, exactly.
Fascism beckons, my friend.
But Douglas Murray said, you know
what, I'll just check the news
for five minutes in the morning.
Look,
Sam: Douglas Murray's not a fash, but he,
Joe: yeah.
But, but.
He's.
Yeah.
One thing.
Five minutes is what he said.
Well, Alain de Botton said, if we
were rational, we would check the
news on a Sunday and that would be it.
Sam: Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
No, I think that there is a lot of truth
in that, but like I said, I think the
even more rational thing is, so if you're
Joe: looking for.
And Douglas Murray, who I look up to
because I read a couple of his books
and found him to be highly intelligent.
Yeah.
Says, I check the news for five minutes
in the morning, then I get on with my day.
Yes.
So, so these people like.
I put up on a pedestal and then I listen
to what they say and it slowly gets in.
So I end up with what?
Just the ABC news app on my phone and
at the moment I'm checking it about five
minutes a day and it's fucking great.
Yeah.
Sam: No, it is.
It's not bad.
But podcasts, there's a great
podcast called decoding the gurus.
They've got an episode
about Douglas Murray.
Give that a listen.
They've got an episode about.
Yeah, I've listened
Joe: to that.
You told me to listen to it.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sam: Sweet.
Yeah, yeah.
Keep at it.
Novara Media, you can support
them for five bucks a month.
Joe: Noah Smith and Matt
Iglesias are not gurus.
They're just nerds.
No, no.
I
Sam: don't think they qualify as gurus.
No.
Joe: Douglas Murray is,
yeah, potentially dangerous.
No, he's definitely a guru.
Because he's incredibly
Sam: intelligent.
But give Novara Media five bucks.
They do excellent analysis.
Anyway, it just happens to
be left wing, but they're not
scaremongers like the Guardian.
Anyway, Ali, what were you going to say?
No, no, no, no,
Ali: no, no, no, no, no, no,
I've lost that train of thought.
Sorry.
Damn it.
No, I'm sorry.
No,
Joe: that's okay.
All right.
Well, I think that's it.
Yeah.
Sam: yeah, look, I think, can I,
I really want to plug like some
non centrist journalism that is.
Joe: Yeah.
Go for it.
I'd usually cut out a lot of.
When you get specific about other
podcasts, they often cut it out
of the edit, because I just think
people might find it a little bit
the same as when you say someone's
name, who they probably don't know.
Uh, look,
Sam: no, no, I, it's more, it's more for
you, that like, if, you know, basically.
If you want some America perspective
that is heterodox, like some of
your guys, um, you know, she'll
talk to Michael Schellenberger.
She'll talk to like all kinds
of cranks, Bad Faith Podcast.
That's great.
she'll talk to centrists as well.
And she'll talk to trade unionists and
academics on, you know, and all sorts.
Yeah, you're big on the Bad Faith Podcast.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
I haven't listened for a
while, but it's really good.
And, Novara Media, which
is like more UK based.
It's just...
The same sort of mix of like hard nosed
analysis, triangulating sources, they're
not, even though they're like avowedly
left wing, they're not stuck in a
kind of orthodox echo chamber, they're
actually like it's It's remarkably
balanced once you keep in mind that
they are a validly left wing, but it
actually gives you, I think, I find it
relatively calming to listen to because
occasionally there's a point of action,
but they're not trying to work you up.
They're just, just trying to understand
the world with you and like, it's
like a very rational project.
I think you would find, whereas sometimes
with the centrism is, ah, if we take.
The left and the right and add them up.
It cancels out to zero.
That's where I should hang out You
know, like I think that there's a kind
of rational impulse there That well
the guy from Philip Morris and the guy
from The the cancer doctor who says
cigarettes will kill you and the guy
from Philip Morris, you know what?
The answer is probably
somewhere in the middle.
That's the centrist lure, you
Joe: know
Sam: No, they probably are
yeah in fairness, I haven't
read a time I haven't read
Joe: enough of it.
Yeah, you won't read it
That's another thing.
I'll say about facts versus filth.
I've done
Sam: to know opinion articles.
Oh, yeah one matter glaciers.
Joe: Yes recently Generally, what I've
noticed is people won't read articles that
you share as well And there's there's a
giving up on there was a certain phase
of the internet where we can't or wanted
To know the same stuff, or kid, that
were on the same page, or even more
simply, that we all just, we all just
got the age delivered, or we all read
it in our, our cafe, that's all gone.
I don't, I don't, I say it in an angry
way, I don't expect someone to read
an article I send them anymore, I just
don't, like, they just won't, that'll
be too long did not read, that's gonna
be, and they're only gonna be from, Noah
Smith or Matt Yglesias, let's face it,
but I'll get excited, you know, I'll
be like I'm like, Oh my God, if more
people could just read this and see this
way, then I could have this discussion.
But I just have to accept you
guys are, I think I was autistic.
Don't you have this same problem where
you get excited about it all the time.
Ali: It's like, it's a constant, like,
yeah, that no one else is, you do.
You really do.
Like it's, it's disheartening.
It can be disheartening.
Sam: I give up.
I, I put things in the phone and
go, Oh, I could, who would I send
Ali: that?
Yeah.
I've got so many open tabs and
things and I'm like, I'm going to
send that to some, and I never do.
Sam: I don't know.
But like, I think maybe the, you
know, I just content myself with
the knowledge that like someone out
there right now feels exactly the
same way I do about this exact thing.
And yeah, I
Joe: could jump in the comments
section, you know, which I never would.
Joe, I would tell you what,
Sam: if you gave me like here.
We'll get some new podcast hosting
next month, which by the way, I
want to create, I want to create
an appeal to the listeners.
I want to solicit a handful
of subscribers who can pay for
help us pay for the hosting.
Right.
But let's say once we get that hosting
in place, you should have your own
feed, which is like Joe breaks down.
Centrist articles from two bloggers.
Trust me.
I would listen to that.
I would a hundred percent listen.
He breaks, he breaks down Matt Iglesias
and no opinion and occasionally has
a foray into Michael Schellenberger
and I would a hundred percent listen.
And all you do is just read me bits
from the article and say, see, I
like this bit because, and just
keep them, keep them under 20.
It'll be great.
Just summarize the article for me.
Like you.
Talk me through it for 20 minutes.
I will 100% listen.
Joe: I can remember reading
Michael Schellenberger at work to
the point where I got in trouble.
Oh yeah.
Because for the first time in five years
I thought I might not die and all we're on
our own might not die from climate change.
Yeah.
No one had said that to me
until he wrote Apocalypse Never.
Yeah.
And I was like, Oh my God,
we might be sort of okay.
Like we might.
Yes.
Humanity might survive.
It's
Ali: awesome.
Where am I going to put all
this existential dread then?
Because that was your outlet.
You'll have
Sam: to put it somewhere.
It was
Joe: like, I got in trouble at work,
whereas the average person will just think
Michael Schellenberg is complete nutter.
He got pretty weird after that
book and got obsessed with
San Francisco, but I mean,
Sam: like nuclear power.
Yeah, sure.
Joe: But like, at least that was,
that was the, that was the moment
I stopped being a standard lefty.
Yeah.
And became something else.
Sure.
With Schallenberger actually being
willing to put a book out called
Apocalypse Never with a picture
of a polar bear feeding its cub.
And he would write facts about how, you
know what, polar bear numbers are up.
Didn't you read the Tim
Sam: Flannery one years ago about,
let's go nukes, don't you remember?
Joe: But, but, but, Apocalypse Now
is not about nuclear power, it's
about the fact that climate change...
It won't turn out the way you, yeah.
It's not going to be the end of the world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The literal end of the world.
I never said it would be.
But you never thought it would be.
No, I never did, no.
And most, I've got all these friends
that are wiser than me, or...
That don't have the same fucking black
hole inside them, whatever, right?
And they don't get worried about
shit in the same way that I do.
But I need to read deeply.
But I, but, but first I needed to get
out of my lefty apocalyptic bubble.
Oh, that was hard.
I don't even know how it, how
I chanced upon someone like
Schellenberger, you know?
Well, I
Sam: think just the algorithm
throws it out there because
there was a need for something.
Basically.
What we started with was like the
extremes are mutually constitutive, right?
So, you know, um, well, the example
I gave was Marga and, you know,
extreme Libs or whatever constituting
one another, but like the, the, the
amount of, the amount of concern about
climate was created by, by denial
that had been existing before that.
And then that in turn, Created an
industry of everyone calm down now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So these, these things just.
Look, this is just Hegelian
dialectics, you know, antithesis,
thesis, antithesis, synthesis.
And history is kind of this weird
crab walk down the beach, you
know, sideways, and you don't know
necessarily whether it's going to get.
And if you're,
Joe: and if you, if you.
If you just think Greta Thunberg is great,
then you'd be shocked to hear Joe Rogan
take the piss out of her, and despise her,
but he becomes the most popular podcast
host in the world, so it's like, where
even is the mainstream, is the mainstream.
Yeah.
Greta Thunberg or is the
mainstream Joe Rogan?
It's both.
It seems to be more Joe
Sam: Rogan actually.
But if he shitcans Greta Thunberg,
it really just confirms what a lot
of people already thought about him.
So, you know, which is another
field opinion yet again.
But yeah, but
Joe: it's, but I lived in a
world for most of my adult life
where I never would have heard.
Yeah.
Sam: That.
No, that's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But go on Ellie.
Yeah.
No, I was going to say
Ali: like, it becomes like
your, those feel opinions are
just reinforced by the same.
Yeah.
It's just a, an echo chamber.
I think
Sam: it's dreadfully droll to express
an opinion about climate change
via the medium of Greta Thunberg.
I mean, that is just Thunberg or whatever
that is just so droll to like boil it
down to her, which is a hundred percent.
let's say the forces of denial were like
keen on doing, and it wouldn't necessarily
put Joe Rogan in the 100% denial camp.
No, it's not.
But it's just very droll to go, I'm
annoyed by this girl having opinions.
Joe: My God.
But the point was that I, all I really
ever thought was, she's great and thank
God someone's telling it like it is.
You were on her side.
And then somehow I end up in this
other part of the internet where
Joe Rogan is like, Taking the piss
out of her and, and, and yeah,
seemingly like not liking her at all.
But I would actually like
Sam: to shut the fuck
up, but actually being a
Joe: bully, and I'm not a Joe Rogan
fan, I don't listen to Joe Rogan, but
Sam: yeah.
I listened to him before he turned into
what he turned into back when he was just
on the pods before his YouTube success.
And because YouTube basically
said, come over here and be famous.
And he did, but like before that
he was already doing really well.
But let's say when he was back in
the days when he was only getting a
million downloads, let's say I was in
there and like, he was very likable.
Now, obviously he was just basically
a happy go lucky bro who was like
interested in a bit of science
and he would introduce, he would.
He would, you know, interview people who
were grounded and people who weren't, but
it was all pretty harmless, bro y stuff.
And mostly he talked to comedians
and just was shooting the shit.
Like, just very likeable and blokey, and
there's a, there's a market for that.
And there should be a market for that.
There's nothing wrong with it.
But when...
Obviously, when the algorithm beats
us all out of shape eventually, and so
basically what I think maybe this is
how we could conclude the episode, a lot
of, a lot of us are being led around the
nose by like our feelings and what we
need to be true based on our feelings
and like, I need this feeling to go away.
So I need this thing to be true.
Right.
But then in turn, the people that are
providing that service to us, they're
getting led around the nose by the
people that have that emotional need.
So, so, so those people are slaves
to the audience and the audience are
slaves to what they're trotting out.
It's, it's dismal.
Ali: So just
Sam: listen to academics and
just screw these other people.
I just don't worry about journalism.
That's my advice.
Ali: That's pretty solid advice.
Sam: And the best kind of academics
will acknowledge the feelings they
have and that they have a subjectivity
and it's not about denying.
The fact that you have a human
response to these things.
It's just about triangulating all that
Joe: stuff, isn't it?
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, personally I think I'm
lucky that I have wise friends.
You know?
Most people probably
Sam: don't.
Well, I would count you
among my wise friends.
Yeah, same.
Yeah,
Joe: but there's blind
spots or obsessions.
But we all
Ali: have blind spots and
vulnerabilities and, yeah.
Sam: And also if you want to
remember more facts here, I'll
leave, I'll leave you with this.
If you want to get more facts into you,
you know, like more fiber into your
diet or whatever, the best way is to.
Absorb things through a framework
of what you care about and what
you, what feels important to you.
And feelings will help those facts
stick so much more than like a
rational sense of this is important.
Like that doesn't do it.
It's the feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ali: I think that's weird.
Joe: Like what I care
about is my kid's future.
Yeah.
And what, and the, but yeah, but the
perceived threats to my kid's future as.
Impending.
Yeah.
Within the next five minutes.
No.
Is Makes you incapable of functioning.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And part of my kid's future
is whether they have a roof
over their heads at my place.
And part of that is
being able to go to work.
And part of being able to go to
work is not having panic attacks.
And part of not having panic
attacks is never reading The
Sam: Guardian.
Actually, and you know what?
These 15 substacks are a good investment.
Yeah.
If they're doing that.
Like I
Ali: said, it's a good investment
of your time and your money.
I think it's valuable.
And if it gives you a sense of, you know,
peace and calm and understanding of the
world as it is right now, it's worth it.
You know, all it is
Joe: is just a vague sense that
maybe we'll muddle through and solve
a few of these fucking problems.
You know, Glazius once said...
There's always been big problems.
Yeah.
Do you know how soothing I found that?
I think that's a good attitude to have.
Imagine if you were in the Great
Depression, you'd think today was
pretty fucking good, you know?
You might, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
It's just that.
I just, so yeah, maybe you're
glad this is basically my dad.
I think there's
Sam: always been big problems, and
that's a good thing to remember.
It's true.
Yeah, it is very good.
Yeah, yeah.
But why is he like your
Joe: dad?
Well, cause he says that
and then I calm down.
Oh.
Oh, I mean?
It's just like that one person
who is so smart, your dad's still
around, you know, maybe he can say
that to you on the phone and you go.
Ali: He's a calm, rational friend
who's giving you the information
like in a really easy, in a way that
yeah, is centering and grounding for
Sam: you.
That, that, that, and that is
something we all need and it's
perfectly okay to need that.
Yes.
There you go.
And maybe if there was more of that,
people would have less feel opinions.
There you go.
All right.
Well, this has been fun.
You guys.
Joe: It's been good.
Sam: See you next week.
See ya.
See ya.
Bye.