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From Country to Courts hosted by Mike Hammond, radio veteran, Country Radio Hall of Fame inductee, and longtime Criminal Court Clerk.
This podcast explores the vital issues at the heart of our courts and criminal justice system in a way that’s clear and compelling.
Each episode will dive into insights on how the court system works, what citizens can expect if they ever find themselves in court, and the programs and services many never hear about, like Veterans Recovery Court, Mental Health Court, and driver's license reinstatement programs.
Whether you’re facing a legal issue, serving jury duty, or just curious about what happens behind courtroom doors, From Country to Courts offers real world context and practical information to help you better understand the justice system and your place in it.
Mike: Welcome to another edition of From Country to the Courts. I’m your host, Mike Hammond, the Knox County criminal court clerk, and I have a very special guest with me today, and that’s the Honorable Judge Chuck Cerny. Thank you for joining us today, Chuck.
Chuck: It’s absolutely an honor, Mike. Thank you for having me.
Mike: Now first of all, a little bit about you. How long have you been on the bench?
Chuck: Since September 1 of 1998, so—
Mike: Oh, wow.
Chuck: —yeah, I’ve been at it for a little while. Hopefully, I’ll learn how to do it here soon.
Mike: [laugh]. Now, you are a general sessions court judge here in Knox County.
Chuck: That’s accurate.
Mike: And not only do you hear cases in the courtroom and on civil cases as well, but you’re also in charge of the drug court, and that’s what we want to focus on today because we have a lot of people who come through, and I would say a large number of cases that we see in both criminal and criminal sessions are drug-related.
Chuck: That’s absolutely correct. And I would suggest to you, and I’m sure all your listeners would agree, that there are some folks that are just so mean that we need to have them incarcerated as long as the law allows, as long as they can be convicted of the crimes they’re charged with, but that’s not actually the majority of the folks we see. Most of the folks that we see in the criminal justice system as a percentage, most of them are involved in the criminal justice system secondary, or as a result of, addiction issues. Addiction has a very profound impact on the criminal justice system and our society, so it’s important to address those issues.
Mike: Let’s talk about the drug court. Now, it’s been in existence for several years. We have had a number of people who have gone through drug court, and so let’s start at the very beginning. Let’s say that someone decides that I’d like to be considered for drug court. What is the procedure?
Chuck: Well, there is an application form, and we’ve become a little more formal with the application form and your lawyer would have to file that, but it’s not actually more cumbersome or difficult. It’s not like applying for a driver’s license or something like that. We do a little better than some of those folks do, I guess, at the Department of Safety. But they’re getting better, though, too; that’s beside the point. There is an application.
It is a voluntary program. You’d have to speak with your lawyer about that. And we’re trying to be very efficient. I’ve got the good fortune to have Kasey Stone, who has helped us with expediting application process and other administrative functions. But if you become criminal justice system-involved and you get to the point where you realize you need help with your addiction issues so that you can discontinue that criminal justice system involvement, we can get you into recovery court and get you some help.
Mike: And when we talk about drug court, recovery court, we’re not just talking about just alcohol. I mean, we’re talking about any number of drugs. Can you elaborate on that?
Chuck: Oh, of course. We’re obviously, and I think it’s in the news fairly often, we’re experiencing opioid addiction and opioid overdose and fentanyl is one particular substance that is particularly dangerous, and there’s a lot of fentanyl out there. And folks are becoming addicted to it and as a result of their addiction, they’re trying to finance their habit and stealing stuff and getting involved with buying some, selling some and using some, and you know, those kinds of patterns. And honestly, there are some legal drugs that can be obtained. I’m not going to tell you where here on the podcast, but there are some things that are out there that are just downright dangerous and folks become addicted to them and we need to get them some help.
Mike: So, let’s talk about the next step. Someone makes the application. They come before you and it is agreed that they are a candidate for drug court. So, let’s talk about what their obligations are as far as reporting and what needs to happen while they’re in drug court supervision.
Chuck: Well, as you know, Mike, and I don’t know that folks realize that in the normal adversarial process, there’s a certain amount of delay associated with volume, and so as a result, sometimes court hearings don’t happen as quickly as you might like. But if you’re in recovery court, we’re actually obligating folks to come to an additional docket on a weekly basis, particularly in the early phases. Recovery court drug court is a five-phase program. Most people take about 18 months. Some folks have taken as long as four years. Some folks have kind of really gotten with the program and finished before a year elapses.
But it’s very difficult. Weekly dockets with the judge—that’d be myself or Judge Davis or Judge Sanchez; I’m getting some help from some other enthusiastic judges who are helping me out with that, and I’m grateful for them—and then of course, there’s random drug screens three times a week in phase one and other obligations, attending your treatment meetings. If you have mental health issues, you need to see your treatment provider and stay on your mental health medications. You need to make sure that you meet with your case manager and you have to get a job and start paying on your restitution and your court costs. There’s lots of obligations and in particular, not reoffending and not using the primary obligations.
Candidly, what we tell participants when they feel overwhelmed with all of their obligations at the beginning is we tell them first and foremost, show up and secondly, be honest. So, if we’re talking to any potential participants out there, you can have an awful lot of success by just showing up and being honest. But it’s tough. It’s not some sort of easy-peasy and hug-a-thug kind of a program. Folks go through an awful lot and they earn the right to be recovery court graduates once they are graduates.
And it’s something actually to be proud of. As a matter of fact, sometimes we compare it to a very selective academic program, like getting admitted to Harvard or something and graduating because once you’ve done that, you’ve done something you can definitely be proud of.
Mike: Let’s talk about what happens if someone doesn’t meet their obligations. They fail a drug screen or perhaps they don’t meet with their case manager. What are the ramifications?
Chuck: It used to be that there was a significant amount of brief incarceration for the purpose of, kind of, rattling somebody’s cage, providing a disincentive for that kind of behavior. We have tried to use incarceration less and use incentives for beneficial behavior more. There are other ways to sanction somebody or provide disincentive for adverse behaviors. There’s all kinds of techniques for doing that shy of incarceration, but sometimes folks do have situations where they’ve disappointed themselves and disappointed recovery court such that a brief incarceration is necessary. We typically keep it in the 24 to 48 hour range if things have gotten to that point.
But sometimes folks are called upon to write a report about specific aspects of their problem behavior, like codependency, or the need to change your influences and change who you hang out with and that kind of thing. And sometimes those reports are actually kind of moving when people sort of start to get it, when they do some research and actually put some effort into that kind of thing. We have other kinds of sanctions, community service, that sort of thing, and we try to emphasize a situation where folks are called upon to be selfless and give back to the community and see other folks in the throes of addiction or poverty or other adverse circumstances and kind of give back to other people who are adversely affected in the community. So, we’ve got a lot of things that we do. But when things are going well, we try to have a little potluck and get some desserts or maybe a nice dinner or something like that for our participants and celebrate their successes, too. So, we actually work hard to make sure that folks figure out that they can have fun sober.
Mike: Well, thank you for doing this. I know it’s a lot more work for you because you have a regular job and this is added, but I think that those of us in the court system, we realize people make mistakes, and if we can help them realize those mistakes and keep them out of the system so that they’re not recurring, everybody wins.
Chuck: Exactly.
Mike: They win, the family wins, society wins, and you get people on the straight and narrow. That is one of the—and I’ve been to your graduations and it’s very moving because family members will come, and this type of thing. And if you’ve gone through 18 months and you have finally graduated, then there’s a good chance that you’re going to be successful.
Chuck: That’s absolutely correct. And if folks don’t reoffend, if folks aren’t charged with crimes again, then of course, obviously there’s no more victims, for that particular person at least. And it is incremental. You have to do it one person at a time, but you have to respect the dignity of each individual and help them become a hardworking, tax-paying, law-abiding member of society. And if you do that, then society wins, they win, and you have the collateral benefit that they have a better, more productive, more fulfilling, satisfying life. And that in and for itself is worth it.
Mike: Our guest has been the Honorable Judge Chuck Cerny, criminal sessions court judge here in Knox County who is also overseeing the recovery court. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Chuck: It was absolutely my honor. Thank you for hearing from me.
Mike: This has been From Country to the Courts. I appreciate your listening. You can follow me on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, don’t forget to give me a five-star review on the app of your choice. Thanks, and I’ll see you on the next episode.