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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
hi, Tom.
Hey.
Hi, Paul.
How you doing?
Okay.
I'm good.
I'm excited.
Yeah.
Don't be too excited.
We're reading the
meditations, . Yeah, that's fair.
I think I am both excited and somberly.
That's right.
Yeah.
Expecting some wisdom
to be imparted upon us.
We should probably introduce
what we're gonna talk about.
So we are here to do a podcast where
we read Marcus Aurelius's meditations
as two guys who know very little
about Marcus Aurelius's meditations.
That's right.
And just we're perfectly
qualified for this position.
Yeah.
We've invented a position that we are
appropriate for because there's we both
like listening to podcasts and are envious
of people who have a lot of expertise or
skills that they can flex on a podcast.
That our That's right.
Our only trick is to invent a podcast
that we are correctly qualified for.
Yes.
By being unqualified for Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
, we're hoping that our lack
of context somehow adds to
the content of the podcast.
Yeah.
I think the way that works is if
you listener have read Marcus'
Aurelius's meditations already.
Probably shut this podcast off now.
Yeah.
Don't listen to us.
This is for hanging out with two guys,
reading something that you can read
along with, but that the expectation is
you don't know anything about this text.
Really.
And so you can live vicariously
through our context less experience.
Yep.
So there's a million YouTube videos
that explain this better than we do.
Yeah.
So if you're looking for
true understanding, maybe
this isn't the right place.
Yeah.
There's a guy named
Michael Segre or something.
Yes.
Who said historian at Princeton?
We Paul sent me a YouTube video of
him lecturing on the meditations.
Yes.
He's very good.
Which is very good and informative
and I think gives a nice big picture
introduction to stoicism in the
sort of philosophical context.
And it's precedence and the sort
of context in which created.
Yeah.
That so many people seem to
think is still pretty relevant.
Yeah.
Today.
Tom, what do you know about the text
we're gonna, we're about to read?
Very little, I think very good.
When I, before you sent me that
YouTube video, if you had asked me
to tell you everything I knew about
Marcus Aurelius, I probably could
have told you that he was an emperor.
Of Rome.
And that he was probably
related to Caesar.
. And that would probably be the
beginning and end of what I could
tell you about Marcus Aurelius.
Maybe some vague notion of his military.
He did some military stuff, but I
couldn't have told you anything more.
Yeah.
Specific Yeah.
Than that.
I know that, I'm pretty sure
you're one for two on that.
I don't think he's related to Caesar.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah.
I'm not saying that's the truth.
Yeah.
That's what I would have said about him.
Yeah.
But when, yeah, when you say it
like that, it's very believable.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I guess copy out listener.
Yeah.
Everything we say here should be taken
with an enormous pound of salt because
we don't know what we're talking about
and we're not gonna fact check any of
it before we, this is just going up.
So is it wrong?
Yes, it's wrong.
Whatever we're saying properly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's fair enough.
That's the extent of what I.
When I started listening to this YouTube
video thing , I was reminded of one other
thing that sort of lurked in the back
of my head about this text, which is I
have the sense that Marcus Aurelius and
this text specifically are especially
beloved by like the Marines and other
like at West Point or whatever too.
Yeah.
It's a book that is popular
amongst military folks here
in the United States at least.
Yeah.
That's my sense, yeah.
Of who loves this text the
best in the United States.
To, I guess to add on to that
I, so I grew up in a household
that I think practiced stoicism.
I think basically, Soviet intelligentsia
or whatever is probably quite stoic.
. And so I, one thing I'm of a little bit
secretly anxious about with this reading
is that it's all going to feel very
obvious to me that I'm Oh, interesting.
That I'm gonna be like, yes, of course.
You should kiss your children
at night and expect them to die.
Of course that's of course
that's what you should do.
And , I'm worried that it's all, I've
already internalized all of this.
It's like one of those things where you
read, Donte and it's the original novel,
and you're like, okay, this is, of course,
this is how stories story should unfold,
because everything after it, because yeah,
everything after it has been like that,
you already lived your life this way.
So I'm a little bit worried about that.
And I think to add on to your point
about the stoicism being more relevant
in the military I think the pattern
there is that it's a very effective
philosophy for difficult situations.
. . And I think the reason it was so
widely adopted in Soviet Russia
might have been for that same reason.
Yeah.
Makes to me, when you live in a life
when, in a world where you cannot,
where bad things happen to you Yeah.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
Yeah.
Tism is a great way to stay of happy.
Yeah.
I see.
Interesting.
Okay.
My initial reaction to what you've
just said is that might be the fact
that this sort of content of this
stoic text might feel obvious to you
might create some good tension between
the two of us, as narrators here.
Cause Oh, I don't think I grew up with
this philosophy in I guess I don't know.
Yeah.
But my initial reaction to the
lecture that I listened to was
not, oh, this is all obvious to me.
Yeah.
But was very much whoa, this is
a philosophy of life that, yeah.
I don't know how much I agree with.
That's, that'll be fun.
That's attention.
So what are you a hedonist, I don't know.
, I guess I, I think in this,
the options were skeptic,
hedonist, and your ancestors of.
And stoic have been round beed
and happy for, and fat for
generations on generations.
You do not know . I don't know if
that's quite it either, but no.
Let me ask you a couple of questions
based on what you just said.
So first of all you say, you grew
up with exposure to this philosophy,
you think to what extent, if at all,
was Marcus a really a specifically
name checked as a part of that?
Not at all.
Not at all.
Not at all.
Okay.
And then, so how, what led you, you're the
one who suggested that we read this text.
What led you in your
life to Marcus Aurelius?
So I have a history buff theme.
I don't know, over the past
five years for whatever reason,
I think it's common in tech.
Unfortunately, . So I'm some
stereotype of a tech exec who
listens to a lot of Roman history.
So I think that was part of it.
Okay.
Where.
. Yeah.
I think a lot of it's just the, it's
the new hip thing to do to be stoic.
So that's probably what led me to it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
What, and is there something
specifically as you were listening
or reading to these histories Yeah.
Of Rome and so forth that sort of caught
your ear about Aurelius specifically?
Is there a reason you wanted
to dive more deeply on him?
I just, I actually love the theme that,
so what basically Marcus ais, Rome Emperor
was selected as a child by Trajan Right.
To be the next emperor.
The guy, he could have been
a happy child right there.
In another alternative parallel
universe, he would've been a happy child
running around with the other kids.
Yeah.
But instead he was like guarded
and, and at all times and
he wasn't allowed to Yeah.
Interact with anyone.
He had intense tutoring and his whole
life was set up to be the emperor.
Yeah.
And he had to fi finally trade and died.
And then he became emperor.
And then there was like the partons,
were attacking from one border
and the Germans from the other.
And his, so his whole life is
just duty and work and and and
I think he doesn't enjoy it.
, I don't think, I think the reason he
writes the meditation is because he
doesn't want that, but it's his job.
And I always loved that concept of
this really just grumpy emperor who
like literally owns, the known world.
Yeah.
Just being so sad.
Yeah.
And I and for what it's
worth, I think there's.
I'm no emperor, but there, there
are parallels in my life where it's,
you think that you achieve certain
things in life and then you'll
be happy and yeah, you never are.
And things keep getting harder
and or just feels that way.
And so I think there's just a lot of,
I think there are parallels there.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yep.
Okay.
I think that makes perfect sense as a
reason that he is interested to study
today and that he has a pretty unique
life story that, that seems so full
of duty and obligation to others.
And I think, not that I know much about
this guy, but the thing that, that
this Michael Sru guy kept emphasizing
was the extent to which he understood
that duty and wrote about it in
his, this little book to himself.
But also it only works because he
also really lived this sense of duty.
Yeah.
He was not just speculating about
the, not the notions of duty and
morality and what we owe one another.
He really was this guy who then lived
that every day of his life in a very
Philosophically coherent way that
I think a lot of people aspire to.
But is also pretty, pretty hard to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For folks who are like us and don't
know much about this, basically
he this is his private journal.
Like he did not intend
this to be published.
This is his private journal.
He goes home, he like,
goes to his little tents.
He spent his entire life
basically at, in a military camp.
Yeah.
And he would, at the end of that
day, he's probably exhausted.
He's had a million demands made of him.
He goes into his little tent and he put,
I don't know, did they have candles?
Probably.
Probably did.
He likes his little candles.
Had candles.
Yeah.
There's a kind of candles
that's, that are called Roman.
Roman candles.
Fantastic.
So he lights his little candle.
Yeah.
And he's exhausted and it's raining
out and the fire is crackling.
And he writes these meditations
and they're basically just
reprimands of himself.
It's here are the things
I should have done better.
And, and just.
Because otherwise there's
no one reprimanding him.
There's nothing that really stops
him from just going back to Rome.
So he needs this ri like daily
ritual to, to just remind him to just
give himself a reason to stay here.
Yeah.
Which I think is fascinating.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
He, it, it seems yeah.
One of the defining sort of parts of
his life, at least in this chapter where
he's the Emper emperor and so on and so
forth, is that he has no peers, is that
he, like there is no one who can give him
any kind of honest feedback because he, he
controls like practically the whole Yeah.
Known world.
So every interaction is
imbalanced and so forth.
So the, this, these writings were
very much for him, a way of staying
sane or some way of dealing with
the fact that he couldn't have
any normal human interactions.
Yeah.
Basically.
Yeah.
And it's the tension between doing
what's right and doing what you want.
Yeah.
. Yeah.
Okay.
I'll voice one other thing that I reacted
to as I got this initial exposure,
which is that it is a very kind of
somber and loveless philosophy to me.
It is a very kind of,
each person is an island.
Everyone is here and is given a sense
of morality and then a set of duties.
And they are just a machine that performs
those duties in a way that is consistent
with that sense of morality, which to me
is a very individualistic, very it does
not emphasize the importance much to me
of love or the connections between human
beings or community, other than they exist
insofar as we have duties to one another.
Yeah.
Which is a very kind of , a
negative framing to me of
human relationships in a way.
It's a very much like we all do this
only because we owe it to one another.
Yeah.
To do it, which has a
certain appeals back.
I I get if you're in the
military or whatever Yeah.
You need to explain why you're
doing the thing you're doing.
That makes sense to me.
But my initial reaction is uhoh, this
guy seems very sad and seems to have
a view of life that is very much not
about connecting with other human
beings, it's just about performing
his duties to these other Yeah.
Human beings.
I'm excited for that to play out.
Yeah.
I'll go ahead and state my perspective
on what I think about that, which
is that I actually, I think it is
highly emotional and everything
that's being said here Yeah.
Is because you are, we humans
are such emotional beings.
We have to set up.
Barriers prevent
ourselves from being hurt.
Yeah.
But like we're, the first chapter
we're gonna read is gonna be him just
basically doing a giant gratitude journal.
Yeah.
Okay.
For all the people, the 17 people
in his life or whatever, that he's
grateful for, that is very personal.
He talks about kissing his daughter
and expecting, knowing that she
might not wake up in the morning
and so it is, you're right.
Maybe the reason it feels so emotionless
is because it's trying to control a
world that is otherwise so painful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's totally fair.
It may be that the sort of things
I'm identifying are implicit and
under the script on some level too.
Yeah.
It goes without saying that you have
these intense connections to people,
and so how do you exist in a world
with those kinds of connections?
Yes.
This book is a guide to living like that.
Yeah, that's right.
So we're gonna read the
part of his life that.
, it's 5% of his life, the
95% we don't have access to.
We don't know if the moment before
he sat down to write that statement
about how, every morning he wakes up
and he expects it to be a terrible
day and his friends will betray him.
We don't know what happened to him.
An hour ago, maybe a friend
did betray him, right?
Yeah.
Maybe he is this hyper optimist
naturally, who if he didn't repeat
that to himself, would've woken
up and said, okay, you know what?
I'm really excited for this project.
I'm launching and all these things.
And actually and then things go
wrong, and then he's extra sad.
So he has to counter, we're
reading the counterbalance.
We just don't know what's on
the other side of that scale.
Yeah.
That's a funny a funny idea at a way
that imagining Mark as Aurelius as a
sort of puppy dog, a guy he needs to,
is so exciting for life every day.
Yeah.
But constantly gets hurt and
has to retreat to his tent and.
Teach himself lessons about
how not to get hurt again.
But I think that's my
relationship with Stoicism.
I see.
Yeah, I think I'm I'm like that.
Okay.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
Basically growing up, right?
You would, I would, this was just
the natural reaction to, as a kid,
you would be like, oh, I'm I'm gonna
go and I'm gonna take this test and
I'm gonna pass, and all these things.
And then someone would interrupt me
and be like you're, you just prepared.
Be prepared to not pass.
There's a chance you won't pass and
just make sure that you're, like
it's that constant sort of yeah.
It's fighting the puppy dog instinct.
It's caution.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's that way if you don't pass,
you won't feel so bad, and if you
do pass, you'll feel even better.
Yeah.
It's a win-win.
I see.
It also strikes me I don't want to get
too far ahead of ourselves here, but the
other thing that struck me about the,
what I have come to know about stoicism,
which again is not much, is that it's
a very kind of, process oriented Yeah.
Philosophy that it's very much about
just make the right decision at the time.
And if that's true, then ugh, nothing
can there's nothing you can, there's
nothing else you could have done.
And therefore, yeah.
Don't worry about if your process is
correct, that's all you can control.
And that's as much as you
could ask of yourself.
That part appeals to me.
Yeah.
That, that I think there's
so much truth in that.
Oh my goodness.
That res, that part
resonates for me in my heart.
I think we all have a, yeah.
A sense of morality or
whatever in our heart.
And for me, that one resonates.
Yeah.
Completely.
So that part very much, yeah.
Appeals to me from what I've heard so far.
But I think we should go into this
being ready to become disappointed.
Yeah.
Because there's a good chance that what
he ends up talking about not that and far
more extreme, far more my understanding
is that meditations are quite extreme.
Yeah.
And I think we're, we are gonna read
some of those lines and bulk at the yeah.
Darkness of them, frankly.
So I, anyway, we'll see.
But I'm, yeah.
Okay.
I'm excited.
May, maybe that's the opportunity for
us to actually start reading this.
I guess the couple of little sort of
detailed notes we're gonna read The Haze
translation, which seems to be the most
popular, the most accessible English
translation for the first time readers.
And we're gonna read it in little
chunks on each episode, basically.
We're not gonna try to cruise
through the whole thing too fast.
I think a lot of people actually
recommend with this particular text.
It's almost designed to be digested in
small amounts because the meditations
themselves are standalone and reading
just a couple a day might be enough for
a very sort of reflective experience.
. Cool.
Okay.
With that, I think we're gonna read the so
book one, as Paul mentioned of meditations
is a sort of gratitude journal.
It's the first listicle that I'm aware of.
Basically it's a list of 17
things for which he is expressing
some gratitude in, in writing.
Okay.
So the so book one is
entitled Deaths and Lessons,
and it does, it just starts with a list.
So I'm just gonna start reading it.
Number one, my grandfather,
Veris character and self-control.
Number two, my father from my
own memories and his reputation,
integrity and manliness.
Three, my mother.
Her reverence for the divine, her
generosity, her inability, not only to do
wrong, but even to conceive of doing it.
And the simple way she lived,
not in the least, like the rich.
Not in the least, like the rich.
Yes.
I'll read that again.
number three, my mother, her reverence
for the divine, her generosity, her
inability, not only to do wrong,
but even to conceive of doing it.
And the simple way she lived,
not in the least, like the rich.
Okay, so she was poor, or at least
she lived like a poor woman, I
think is what's being said there?
She didn't, not in the
least, like the rich.
Yes, she said, and sorry, there's
a, an m dash between those, the
simple way in which she lived dash,
not in the least, like the rich.
So I think I see what Aurelius is saying
is I see that the way she lived is not
remotely like the way rich people lived.
And he admired that she lived a simple,
sounds like a spartan or kind of life.
I see.
And may have chosen that that was, she had
the option to live differently, possibly.
Yeah.
I don't actually know anything
about Aurelius's mother.
Do you?
N no but I actually, my understanding
is that they, so they were Spanish
they were, Romans of elite status who.
had ownership of some Spanish properties.
Spain was a province of the Roman Empire,
so they were definitely well off and yeah.
To me this reads a little bit like
obviously he might be horrified to
know that we're reading his private
journal, but he, it reads a little
bit like he just had a very nice
family . Like I, I wonder if this is
him sugarcoating it in retrospect,
or if he actually just loves his
grandparents and his parents like this.
Yeah.
I do.
So he is being pretty selective,
in the traits that he is choosing.
Sure.
In he's, so he it may just be
that he is choosing to Yeah.
Write down the positive
parts he remembers.
Yeah.
And I think it is worth
underscoring in point number two.
He's got this bit about my father
parenthesis from my own memories and his
reputation, which maybe suggests that
he didn't know his father all that well.
That's fair.
That's my recollection.
Yeah.
Or that's my sort of read on,
what's going on with his father.
So I think maybe.
, maybe he didn't know his father all that
well, but he still felt like integrity
and manliness were qualities he picked up.
Yeah.
This sounds like the way I journal
would do a gratitude journal.
I just list people and
thank them for things.
Yep.
I agree.
Cool.
He's got one more family member.
So number four, my great-grandfather
to avoid the public schools, to hire
good private teachers and to accept the
resulting costs as money well spent.
That's nice.
So fascinating that to
avoid the public school
The, I Wow.
No so interesting.
I guess I don't know enough about this
that he sounds like his great-grandfather
was the one who bankrolled his private
education by tutors as opposed to Yeah.
The Roman State or whatever.
Yeah.
Who was saying, oh, you're
gonna be the next emperor.
Yeah.
And that's, basically every emperor.
And I think just Elite and the
Roman Empire had private tutors.
They were typically Greeks.
I think this is where Marcus
earliest gets, stoicism philosophy.
So I didn't realize there was an
alternative to get a private school.
Yeah.
I guess I didn't even know that
public schools existed at the time.
But for someone like Marcus, of
course he would get a private tutor.
Yes.
And he seems he seems to like the
implication of this seems to be that
some people in his great-grandfather's
position would've thought that
spending money to hire good private
teachers for their great-grandchild
would not have been money well spent.
Sure.
In this case, the great-grandfather was
happy to accept the resulting costs.
Huh.
I, so I read that a little
differently than you.
Okay.
Which is that I don't even in Roman
times, I don't know if you would've
been contemporary with your great-grand.
It seems that's a long, that's
many generations, right?
So I would I read that as maybe he was
the he janitor of this of this like line
that, that gained social status over time.
And the reason that happened was
because the great-grandfather invested
in a private school for his grant,
for Marcus's grandfather and so forth.
Yes.
I see.
Okay.
So this was more a lesson that
he learned from the or Yes.
That they're an investment
made over many generations.
I see.
I see.
Okay.
Interesting.
Okay.
Because I do get this, I think
Marcus comes from wealth.
Like I don't think it would've been a
big deal for him to get private tutoring.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
Speaking of his education, number five,
my first teacher not to support this
side or that in chariot racing, this
fighter or that in the games to put up
with discomfort and not make demands.
To do my own work, mind, my own business,
and have no time for Slanderers.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
I The is Yeah.
Stoicism fully formed already
in, or mind on the first page?
believe his teacher was, oh, we
should look this up, but epic Curian.
Epic Epictetus, yeah, that's right.
Epictetus.
Yeah.
So who is a stoic philosopher.
So that makes sense.
Yeah.
So little context on the chariot races.
Again, we're not historians, but Yeah.
Good context.
There's basically four teams.
Oh, wow.
I don't know.
The reds, the greens, the blues
and the yellows, I believe.
Wow.
And this is like in insane board game.
It's, yeah.
It's people were really into it.
And it continued even after the Roman
Empire fell, it continued in Byzantium.
Wow.
And it was a big deal.
And Marcus, like when he was
forced onto the throne he demanded
that the Senate also approve his.
Brother Yes.
Who was super into the chariot races
and was essentially a degenerate
who like, loved the green team.
I see.
And loved the green team.
And needed updates daily about what
was going on with the green team, even
when he was on Campaign against Paia.
Wow.
And so there, would imagine that Marcus
is writing this in the context of, the
sort of thinking about my stupid brother.
My stupid brother.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Yep.
What do you make of that last
clause, of that last sentence?
To have no time for Slanderers.
. That seems everything else here seems
to be sort of stuff that I could imagine
saying, that we would teach Yeah.
Children here in the United States,
but then to have no time for
Slanderers implies that there are
people out there slandering you.
Oh, for sure.
He's like a celeb.
He's got a, that's what's going on here.
This is essentially him.
No time for the haters.
Yeah.
Keep my head down.
. Yeah.
That's a classic line.
Yeah.
Okay.
Interesting.
That's how I interpret it.
I'll say I recognize something in my
own kind of upbringing with the second
sentence here to put up with discomfort
and not make demands is a very yeah.
I grew up in Minnesota with a sort
of combination of Midwestern and like
Victorian English kind of family values.
Yeah.
Both of which emphasize a lot
of grin and barrett and don't
be an imposition on others.
In my adult life, I've had a spent a
lot of time questioning the goodness
of that as a life philosophy, but
definitely recognize some of it in
that sentence here with Marcus Aureli.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I can attest to that that Tom
takes that to the extreme and
probably too far for sure.
Yes, absolutely.
Yep.
Yeah.
So this is like a, Marcus
is like a, older Tom.
Yep.
Oh boy, that's a, I don't know if
that's a good thought or a bad thought.
Great thought.
Okay, . Okay.
Number six.
And now we are going to enter
the world of me pronouncing Roman
names that I'm just gonna be fully
speculating on the pronunciation.
Excellent.
Number six is dk, not to waste time
on nonsense, not to be taken in
by congers and hudu artists with
their talk about incantations and
exorcism and all the rest of it.
Wow.
Not to be obsessed with quail
fighting or other crazes like that.
to hear unwelcome truths, to practice
philosophy, and to study with bakchis.
And then with tend dasis and Marcs
to write dialogues as a student.
Yeah.
To choose the Greek lifestyle,
the camp bed, and the cloak.
Wow.
Wow.
A lot.
A lot going on.
That's amazing.
This is so good.
This is like much better
writing than I was expecting.
Maybe some of the credit for
that belongs to our translator.
Yeah.
Mr.
Hayes.
But yes.
It . Yeah.
There's a lot going on, huh there.
Fascinating.
That there's a danger to Marcus
Aurelius of being taken in by Conover
or becoming obsessed with quail
fighting or something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so much so that he feels the
need to write it down and yeah.
Say, oh no, thank God
somebody dag need us.
Taught me not to do those right things.
Quail fighting.
Quail fighting.
I love that . I must be
analog cock fighting.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
I'm gonna ask you again what
you make of the last sentence
to choose the Greek lifestyle.
Yeah, the camp bed and the cloak.
So I think those are separate.
I don't think those are all one concept.
The Greek lifestyle is opposed to the
Roman li, like it's a more cultured
they're connected with a dash, in this
case, to choose the Greek lifestyle.
Dash, dash, the camp bed, and the cloak.
I, so I read those as being connected.
I can understand the camp bed.
What do you think he means by that?
Do you have any sense of what he means by
the clo, the cloak, the emperor's cloak.
So the purple.
So he, so that means that he he
chose the duty of being an emperor.
I see.
Okay.
So sorry, may, let's back up.
What do you think he means by
to choose the Greek lifestyle?
So this part?
Yeah, I just for context to the listener,
I don't have I ordered my paperback copy.
It's coming in the mail so I don't
have this text in front of me.
So Tom is the one with the
dashes and all that context.
Yeah.
So the, yeah, my understanding of the
Greek lifestyle is like Romans were
these militant just like woodhead
or whatever, and they conquered the,
these, this incredibly rich and and
deep culture in, in the Greek Empire.
Yeah.
And Roman aristocracy all basically
adopted those philosophies.
It was a much more Yeah, so I think
everyone, all Greek aristocracy was or
sorry, all Roman aristocracy was was
educated in a more Greek cultural context,
and that I think that's what he means.
I see.
Should it be more
philosophical and and artistic.
Scholarly.
Scholarly.
Okay.
Got and not unless
militant or whatever else.
Yeah.
And probably this is in contrast to
the, like the Coliseum games and the
gladiators and like tho that type of Yeah.
What would be considered very Roman.
Yeah.
I see.
Okay.
Number seven, rustics.
The recognition that I needed to
train and discipline my character
not to be sidetracked by my
interest in rhetoric, not to write
treatises on abstract questions or
deliver moralizing little sermons.
Or compose imaginary descriptions
of the simple life or the man who
lives only for others to steer clear
of oratory poetry and Bell Lere.
Not to dress up, just to stroll around
the house or things like that, to
write straightforward letters like
the one he sent my mother from Sinisa.
And to behave in a conciliatory
way when people who have angered or
annoyed us want to make up to read
attentively, not to be satisfied
with just getting the gist of it.
And not to fall for every smooth talker
and for introducing me to epic titus's
lectures and loaning me his own copy.
So these entries are getting longer and
more detailed, which is interesting,
I think, too, that it seems like these
people who are not his immediate family.
That's right.
He has much more detailed
things to, to be thankful for.
Yeah.
And the, that's probably a
reflection of how well he knew them.
Yeah.
Although interestingly, the family
ones seem to be very kind of base Yeah.
Traits that he has, he picks up Yeah.
Integrity or whatever else.
Generosity, those kinds of qualities.
I am realizing that it's gonna be very
valuable to have the text in front of me.
What was that bit in the middle about?
Sorry.
Maybe just reread it.
. Yeah.
I'll read the whole thing again.
Rustics Number seven, the recognition
that I needed to train and discipline
my character, not to be sidetracked
by my interest in rhetoric.
Okay.
Not to write treatises on abstract
questions or deliver moralizing
little sermons or compose imaginary
descriptions of the simple life or
the man who lives only for others.
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
I It seems almost anti
philosophical in a way, right?
That, yeah.
This is a treatise on, maybe
he doesn't conceive of it as an
abstract question, that, yeah.
This is a this rustic has taught
him not to be too, Theoretical.
Yeah.
And not to relish in the theory and Yeah.
Like his job is to get
out there and do it.
Yeah.
That is so interesting.
And it speaks to why this
is a private journal.
Yeah.
Because he is being
philosophical in this journal.
Yes.
In theory.
We'll see.
But he wouldn't, he doesn't think his
job or his duty is to do that externally.
He thinks that's folly.
Yeah, exactly.
To deliver moralizing little sermons
to others, moralizing little sermons,
which to other people is not a good idea.
Which I think, and not to
idealize the simple life.
Yes.
Which is such a powerful statement.
How many times Tom, do you
idealize the simple life?
The simple life?
I think there's a tendency in all
of us to do that a little bit, but I
think we also know that's simplistic
or fanciful or not very appealing.
But it's so relevant.
Yeah.
I do it all the time.
Yeah.
. What strikes me is that this, he's
already a guy who is so clearly
in control of his own Yeah.
Thoughts.
He's very self-aware.
So yeah.
So clearly very mindful
of what's going on.
In his own life and what
he's learning from everyone.
And what I mean.
, ob of course this is a journal entry,
so it's the product of reflection.
But did he not have anyone to talk to?
Like, why, I guess when I have these
thoughts, I talk to my wife about them.
Did he not, is that not an option?
Or is he maybe just a mega introvert
or Yeah, it's a great question.
I, so I don't know the answer either.
He does have a wife I, I have 17 kids.
She probably didn't have that much time.
That, yeah.
And I think maybe the sort of standards
for that kind of conversation relationship
might have been different back then.
And I do think, again,
even with her probably.
. Yeah.
Marcus is still just the emperor of
Rome, so it may not be, it wasn't a
literal lack of That's how lonely he is.
Yeah.
It's that he's, when you are the
emperor, when you're the emperor, you
stare into the abyss and whatever else.
Yeah.
Ugh.
I pity this guy so much already.
Yeah.
Poor guy.
One thing that's striking me about these
journal entries is it seems like Marcus
and his philosophy is already very
fully formed even from the jump here.
, it feels like , maybe that's not
surprising but he already has
a pretty strong command of what
his viewpoint on the world is.
It doesn't seem like this text is gonna
be about him discovering stoicism Yeah.
As much as just reflecting
upon how to live that way.
Yeah.
It consistent with a philosophy
that he has already very much
formulated in his own mind.
Yep.
Yep.
A lot of these.
are guess I will say this is a lot of
the sort of lessons he's describing here
are very recognizable to me as well.
Yes, I agree that they're relevant.
They're so relevant to write
straightforward letters, to behave in
conciliatory way to people who have
anchored or annoy us, annoyed us and want
to, who wanna make up to read attentively.
Yes.
All of these sound like things we should
all, we instantly snap to Yes, of course.
I would like to want to
do something like that.
And none of them are easy things.
. . And this is post just for, this is
post Bible, post Jesus, or I mean
it's, yeah, it's 300 or something.
200 or 380.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this concept is mirrored in
religion, it's mirrored in stoicism.
I guess this was.
. Yeah, it does.
You're right.
It seems like he already knows what's
right and this set of private journals is
just himself reminding himself every night
of what I'm supposed to be doing and, yep.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Number eight.
App Apollonius in Independence and
un varying reliability and to pay
attention to nothing, no matter
how fleetingly, except the logos.
Logos being logic.
Yeah.
And to be the same in all circumstances.
Intense pain, the loss of a child,
chronic illness, and to see clearly from
his example that a man can show both
strength and flexibility, his patience
in teaching, and to have seen someone
who clearly viewed his expertise and
ability as a teacher, as the humblest
of virtues, and to have learned
how to accept favors from friends.
Without losing your self-respect
or appearing ungrateful.
Whoa.
That was, that's Alon.
Yes.
Let's, should we start
with the back end there?
Sure.
To accept favor from friends.
Yes.
Without losing your self-respect
or appearing ungrateful.
How did you accept a favor
and lose self-respect?
Oh, that resonates for me completely.
I can understand how letting someone do
a favor for you might feel uncomfortable
for some people it can for me, for sure.
And then the sort of way to deal
with that discomfort is a sort of
debasement of, oh, thank you for
doing, I'm such a piece of shit.
I can't handle this myself.
So thank you for doing this thing
for me that I'm not equipped to do.
When does Marcus Aures Emperor
of Rome have to feel that way?
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
Clearly he observes Alon as doing this.
I see.
This is what he's
learned from App Apollos.
I see.
, huh?
Yeah, that, that's an interesting point.
Yeah.
It's very specific.
I love it.
. Yeah.
I do think there's a big profound thing
there though about you, you can perceive
a favor from a friend as an inadequacy
in yourself that someone is helping
you cover up or something like that.
Yeah.
Or as an expression of Yeah.
Connection and love and he's
looking at he's learning how to
appropriately handle that situation.
Wow.
Fascinating.
Okay.
And then the middle section.
So we've got, we've also got this
sort of reliability, basically.
To, to be the same in all circumstances.
So there's an example of where I
think modern I don't know, philosophy
of life is gonna differ, right?
The, I think it's fair to say that
in modern circumstance you are
supposed to feel your emotions.
Yes.
Like If your child dies you should cry.
You should feel bad about that.
You shouldn't be the same
in all circumstances.
That's interesting.
And, but Marcus believes
that you should be the same.
So I read that differently.
I guess I don't read that as, don't
feel your emotions necessarily.
Okay.
You can be the same person
experiencing different emotions.
Mm-hmm.
.. But that is different from,
I think he's talking about
being fake basically somehow.
That there is something that this, that
what app Apollonia seems to have taught
him is a sort of virtue of constancy
and dependability to others in the sense
that you are always the same around them.
You aren't putting on airs, you aren't
being somebody who you're not, you are
just, you are always Mark as Aurelius.
And you got that from the instance
of his child dying or y yeah.
Let's maybe I'll just read it again here.
Independence and Unbearing Reliability.
and to pay attention to nothing, no
matter how fleetingly except the logos.
. So that's, that to your point, does
sound like not feeling her emotions and
to be the same in all circumstances.
Intense pain, the loss of a child,
chronic illness, and to see clearly
from his example that a man can
show both strength and flexibility.
Yeah.
I guess my read is just, yeah.
From that second sentence to be
the same in all circumstances.
, I, yeah.
That's a positive way to look at it.
Yeah, my child just died, but
I'm still going to take court.
I'm still gonna, hold court and Yeah.
Hear other people's problems and Yeah.
And I still just am who I am.
This is a thing that has happened to me.
But I am still Marcus Aureus.
I am not gonna become some new guy
because this has happened to me.
One thing this is reminding me of is in.
American and English writing Ru
kipling's writing about, like that
poem about what it means to be a man.
And it contains a lot of this
kind of thing about to walk with
kings and peasants and be the
same in both of those situations.
It's reminding me a bit Yeah.
Of that.
I guess maybe that's why
I'm reading it the way I am.
Oh, that's fair.
Yeah.
That was always something in my
childhood that was emphasized.
, is that you should behave the same
way around the president and a beggar.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think, yeah, I think that Interesting.
That seems like it would re have
resonated with Aurelius too.
Yeah.
Based on, yes.
Okay.
Number nine, sexist kindness.
An example of fatherly
authority in the home.
What it means to live as nature
requires gravity without heirs.
. to show intuitive sympathy for friends,
tolerance to amateurs and sloppy thinkers.
his ability to get along with everyone
sharing his company was the highest of
compliments and the opportunity and honor
for those around him to investigate and
analyze with understanding and logic
the principles we ought to live by,
not to display anger or other emotions
to be free of passion and yet full
of love to praise without bombast.
To display expertise without pretension.
Okay.
I'm getting the impression that Marcus
Aureus knew a lot of really amazing guys.
. Yeah.
It seems to be part of the
point of this chapter is look at
all these awesome guys I have.
Yeah.
I have known and there's a little bit
of an answer to your, or like a Yeah.
Response to your question about is
this an unfeeling philosophy to show.
love without passion.
Yeah.
That, that sentence leapt
out to me too, to be free of
passion and yet full of love.
Wow.
What a cool line.
Yeah, I agree.
That does seem to be Yeah.
Encapsulate his response to this
question that we've been asking.
Yeah, he does.
Although the sentence that precedes that
is not to display anger or other emotions.
, which I think hints on what
you were saying earlier too.
, that there is a certain amount of stoicism
in the literal sense that we think
about it of being stone faced and Yeah.
Not showing what you are feeling.
That part doesn't resonate as
much for me, but to be free of
passion and yet full of love.
That's, yeah.
Yeah.
And back to your point about there just
being a lot of cool dudes in his life,
who are the, are these all his tutors?
How does he know so many stoics?
? Yeah, that's a good question.
This is a probably, The first of many
instances where a historian could just
answer this question for us, but not us.
We're just gonna move on from that.
We're gonna move on.
These open-ended question folks.
Yes.
He knew these guys.
Yeah.
I guess the one thing with this guy in
particular, which maybe suggests he wasn't
a tutor, is this stuff about, he's an
example of fatherly authority in the home.
And it seems like a lot of, I read
that section as implying that Marcus
just was around this guy, maybe in
his own home or something like that.
Sure.
Which maybe could have been a
true relationship, but maybe not.
Could have been a slave.
Romans love had slaves.
Certainly Romans of his status
would have a bunch of slaves.
Yeah.
Although this bit about sharing
his company was the highest of
compliments and the opportunity and
honor for those around him, maybe.
to show intuitive sympathy for friends and
tolerance to amateurs and sloppy thinkers.
He's, I love that, by the way, . Yes.
Still the sloppy thinkers.
He's certainly built like sex this
up as a very yeah, that's true.
Logical and precise and
scholarly type figure to me.
Yeah.
But who knows?
We're not gonna answer that question.
Nope.
Okay.
Moving on.
Number 10, the literary critic
Alexander, not to be constantly
correcting people and in particular,
not to jump on them whenever they make
an error of usage or a grammatical
mistake or mispronounce something.
That's a good one for you, Tom.
Yeah.
This is this I don't like this guy but
just answer their question or add another
example or debate the issue itself,
parenthesis not their phrasing, or make
some other contribution to the discussion
and insert the right expression unt.
Away.
That's what feels smaller, very specific,
smaller to me than the praise that
he's smashed on the, his other friends.
This guy was just a really good job
at not being pedantic, basically.
Mark, you're Marcus . This is
what I'm getting outta this.
I'm Marcus before he writes
the meditation . Yeah.
Yeah.
Cuz I'm a total No, but remember
this is the counterweight.
So I think Marcus, every time Marcus
had message, someone comes to him Yes.
And is oh my, my, my farm is flooded and
the barbarians came and killed my family.
He's fix your sentence.
Yeah.
Fix your yeah.
You said that wrong.
Yeah.
The family, I don't know
, whatever the Correct, yes.
Ancient pronunciation would've been Yeah.
Interesting.
That he gets, I guess I'm just assuming
that these people are being presented
in roughly chronological order.
In Aurelius's life.
Given that we started with his immediate
family, they become less important.
It's interesting that he got all the
way through all these other amazing guys
and seems to only now learn not to be
a total jerk about correcting people.
And how does one teach you that skill?
It, I guess you just know that he had
the instinct, but chose not to act on it.
How do you, it could be
direct instruction too.
He's right.
Alexander watches Marcus be
a total jerk to someone and
be like, Hey, you know what?
That actually wasn't
the best way to handle.
Or what if Alexander was just a jerk?
And by watching him be a jerk, Marcus
was like, oh, I shouldn't be like that.
That's annoying.
I don't like being corrected.
Yes.
That would be an interesting
form for gratitude to take.
I, that would be so cool.
What if all, I think there's an
angle on this where all these people
were jerks, and Marcus just finds
it's a gratitude journal, right?
So he just finds the thing that he
can, that he can appreciate about them.
Thank you for teaching
me to be emotionless.
Like my daughter died and I came to you
for . And you were completely emotionless.
You were?
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you for teaching me that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
11 Fronto to recognize
the malice, cunning, and
hypocrisy that power produces.
And the peculiar ruthlessness
often shown by people from
quote, good families close quote.
Wow.
This one feels quite different
from the ones that proceed it.
Now.
, this is not about how to live,
it's about how to navigate
power for politics for Marcus.
Yeah.
The peculiar ruthlessness, often shown
by people from quote unquote good
families catches the ear a little bit.
Did he write all of this
in one sitting, you think?
Or did he come back and continue his list?
I would have to imagine that there was,
he was doing some editing or something.
This particular chapter is what I mean I
think even for a chapter like, editing.
. He's writing with a, I don't
know, like a quail quill.
Yeah.
still think it could be.
I have no idea.
But who edits their journal?
Thomas.
That's, I think a peculiar
thing about this guy right?
Is that this is more than
just a simple journal.
Yeah.
I mean, He is writing a, it's not just
dire Dear diary, here's what I did today.
Yeah.
He is writing and the thing that
Michael Ser called it is a book to
himself that it's a, it is a book,
but it's designed for only his own
reading, which is a very curious thing.
Who does that?
Write a book to yourself.
Yeah.
But these are such fully
formulated thoughts.
They are, yeah.
They're so full of obvious contemplation.
Yeah.
That it, I don't think he just sat down
one night at the tent and just dumped
this all out of his You're right.
It doesn't seem like a
stream of consciousness.
Doesn't feel like it at all.
It's, this is it's not that he just, that
day he had some experience where, yeah.
Some good family.
was ruthless with him.
And also because probably his
relationships with these many people
were, happened over many years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
. But again, an instance where maybe
this person was ruthless and came
from a good family, or maybe they
were a teacher, we don't know.
Yeah.
I guess I'm still reading this
as the more positive take of
these people were actual Yeah.
It seems likely to me that Marco
Aurelius would have actually had
connections to lots of the best and
brightest and, most amazing men and
women of Rome, and that they would
have been employed to teach him stuff.
Interesting.
I'll take the other side of that.
Okay.
You think it's, people have
bad examples and he, yeah.
I had that toxic X and she taught me
to not take things for granted and
to not show too much emotion and not
to and to have love, but not passion.
That's how, that's the
ultimate form of doism Tom.
Yeah.
It's, I appreciate even those
who have tried to hurt me.
Yep.
Yeah.
Turn the other cheek.
Yeah, that's that.
I think that's totally fair.
That's absolutely plausible.
I guess I would be shocked if
all of these relationships were
something, some were like that.
Can a single person have 17?
Wishers like this.
There's a lot of people who
are like trying to help him out
over the course of his life.
Yeah, I think so.
He was like groomed to be the emperor.
Everyone that must have been trying to get
favors from him and stab him in the back.
I bet.
I bet he only probably had maybe
nobody who actually was a well wisher.
Wow.
Interesting.
Or maybe two people.
I think everyone else on
that list is complicated.
Complicated.
True.
I think, I I think we were talking
about that with the family members
too, that he's selective and brief
in his praise of the family members.
Probably because they were complicated.
Yeah.
But yeah, maybe this is just our own sort
of internal dispositions differing here,
. But to me it seems very plausible that
there were lots of Romans who were, it was
an honor for these Romans to be brought
into the life of the future emperor.
And they wanted, they, in their hearts,
they loved the Roman Empire or whatever.
Wow.
And they wanted to impart
good stuff to this guy.
And yes, they were, maybe they also
had selfish ends, but the, I think
it's very possible that there were
this many noble Romans who wanted to
contribute to the education of the empire.
Wow.
Future puppy.
Puppy dog, Tom.
Yeah.
Maybe.
Cool.
Okay.
Number 12, Alexander the est.
Not to be constantly telling
people or writing them that I'm
too busy unless I really am.
Wow.
Similarly, not to be always
ducking my responsibility to
the people around me because of
quote unquote pressing business.
Sure.
Some of these more specific ones.
I think I'm more attuned to your
theory that the, these were bad ac
people who were annoying to Marcus in
his own life, and that's how can you
have this many people who are close
enough to you to notice something
about your very private behavior Yeah.
And then reprimand you about it.
That's that's a lot.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
One thing about this guy is that
he's, he, his title is the Platonist.
Is it platonic?
Is it pla Platonic The
Platonic Relationship?
Yes.
That's the route Uhhuh . To me,
that means he's a philosopher.
And maybe I, okay.
Yeah, you might be right.
Actually, maybe he's
listening philosophers.
I think so that these are his,
I see these are his books.
This poor little Marcus
who has no friends.
He, all he has are Greek philosophers
that he read so I actually think it's
possible that Alexander, he is a Roman,
but who ascribes to platonic philosophy
and maybe taught Marcus platonic
philosophy or something like that.
We'll never know folks.
Yeah.
We'll never know this.
This information lost can never be.
That's right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number 13, catalyst not to shrug off a
friend's resentment, even unjustified
resentment, but try to put things
right to show your teachers un grudging
res Respect The Delicious and the
Athena Dotas story in parenthesis.
Oh boy.
And your children Unfeigned love.
Wow.
That first bit sounds like the opposite of
say bye to the haters, which was earlier.
Yeah.
He's like, when you have a hater,
think about what they hate you for.
I think it is important that
he uses the word friend.
So he says, not to shrug
off a friend's resentment.
Sure.
But try to put.
. And yes I think we have entered a
section of this list where it's getting
mysterious, what the That's fine.
Especially mysterious, what
these relationships are,
because it could be that, yeah.
Catalyst was a friend who he
burned by not making things
right when Catalyst resented him.
And now Absolutely.
There's almost no world in which that's
the, it's possible he was, it was a
more didactic kind of thing where the
guy just told him a story or whatever.
guess to show your teacher's un grudging
respect is also an interesting one.
Yeah, that's true actually, that does
Bo bolster your theory of them all being
teachers, how do you learn that lesson
from someone ? He could also have been
a fellow student or something and Okay.
Oh, I don't know.
It's hard to parse.
Ooh.
Yeah.
He could have been a fellow student
who then had a falling out with Marcus.
, but like Marcus still loves him for
these reasons, but also he learned
to show your children unbanked
love for this goodness, this guy.
So what?
Yeah.
Okay.
Not maybe more plausible
that he was a teacher.
The fact that he's got this weird
parenthetical, the Delicious and Athena
Dodos story, that to me sounds like
maybe Catalyst was a teacher who told
him some story, about the importance
of teacher showing teachers respect.
This guy's like the ultimate teacher's.
Pett.
. He just loves all of his teachers.
Yeah.
Writes about them at night.
Yeah.
He is a dork for sure.
Okay.
Number 14, my brother severs to
love my family truth and justice.
It was through him that I encountered.
Illa, Hal Vids, Cato, Dion,
and Brutus, and conceived of a
society of equal laws governed by
equality of status and of speech.
And of rulers who respect the
liberty of their subjects above
all else, and from him as well.
To be steady and consistent in
valuing philosophy and to help
others and be eager to share, not
to be a pessimist and to never doubt
your friend's affection for you.
And that when people incurred his
disapproval, they always knew it and
that his friends never had to speculate
about his attitude towards anything.
It was always clear.
Okay.
, wait, so this is the fuck up brother?
Severs is the fuck up, brother?
I think so.
Okay.
Again, we're We'll never
know, but let's just assume.
Okay.
I wonder if, we'll, this
will get clarified over the
course of the coming no.
We never retrace.
Okay.
The past is The past.
Past.
It's moved on, but I think
it's the fuck up brother.
Okay.
Which makes this hilarious.
He's 17 on the list.
. He's 14.
Oh, 14, okay.
Okay.
Yeah, he's pretty low on the
list and yeah, that's true.
Although they seem to be getting
mostly longer entries as time I see
goes on here, so I'm not sure that.
Blower on the list is bad necessarily.
Okay.
Okay.
It does feel like all the
things he's grateful to severs
for are stretches to me.
The bit about introducing me
to essentially like democratic
philosophy or something like that.
Sure.
Seems like it was probably
pretty important for Marcus.
Sure.
But like this, yeah.
Okay.
It does seem like he is hammering
this point from many different
people about this thing about Yeah.
Being very transparent and
consistent in your personalities.
This is like the third or fourth guy
who seems to have taught him that.
Really that's not hard.
I read this as this is a guy who just
wears his heart on her sleeve and says
exactly what he thinks, which is the
opposite of all the other stuff that
Marxist has been praising people for,
which is, don't show your emotion.
So I.
. I think he's just trying to, he's just
scraping the bottom of the barrel.
What do I thank this guy for?
I guess he's like an idiot and
shows his emotion, and maybe I have
something to learn from that moving on.
Although he, what about this
sentence to be steady and
consistent in valuing philosophy?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I don't read it quite as I have to,
I gotta say something about severs.
Oh, shit.
Oh, shit.
I guess he, yeah.
Wears his heart on his sleeve in part
because you mean, again, this is, have
you ever written a gratitude journal?
No, never.
I feel like you do.
That is an experience I've had where
I have, I list all the important
people in my life and I'm like, ah,
I gotta put something else here.
What else am I, because you're
essentially, that's the exercise
is you're forcing yourself.
Maybe you're not feeling
great that day and you're just
forcing yourself to be grateful.
And it does feel like, okay, you're
pulling Okay pulling for strings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's fair.
That, that could, sorry, I didn't
mean to be condescending with
the gratitude Triple question.
Okay.
I okay.
Maybe it just works on me, the thing
that he comes up with here, but to
me it does seem the first part of
it is quite different from the thing
that he has thanked other people for
this introduction to a Society of
Equal Laws and the importance of the
liberty of your citizens and all that.
That's, definitely seems believable
that would be a foundational experience
and very, something that Marcus
would genuinely be gra grateful for.
Okay.
If indeed Severs is the one who
introduced him to those things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very cool.
I'm gonna go read up on Severs
after this, but I'm not gonna,
we're not gonna talk about it next.
Okay.
It might, I suspect if we read Hayes 50
page introduction to the meditations, we
might learn something about who Severs
was right as well, but you'll never know.
Listener.
15.
Maximus.
Self-control and resistance
to distractions, optimism in
adversity, especially illness.
a personality and balance,
dignity and grace together.
Doing your job without whining, other
people's certainty that what he
said was what he thought and what
he did was done without malice.
Yeah, never taken a back or apprehensive,
neither ration nor hesitant or bewildered
or at a loss, not obsequious, but
not aggressive or paranoid either.
Generosity, charity, honesty, the
sense he gave of staying on the path
rather than being kept on it that no
one could ever have felt patronized by
him or in a position to patronize him.
A sense of humor.
That last one, . Yeah.
Last one is interesting.
Sounds like very standard
except for the last bit.
. This feels like it's all the traits he's
picked up on and everybody else Yeah.
Put together in one guy, basically.
Yep.
Anything stand out to you?
No.
There no.
To, to me the sense he gave of staying
on the path rather than being kept on it.
Sure.
You don't have to do it,
but you, is it, yeah.
The projecting a degree of control or
sort of , autonomy in, in his own life.
. That's an interesting one.
I think that we haven't really
heard from Marcus before.
And in some ways it almost seems
slightly, there's a little bit
of tension there to me in the
sense that my reaction to Stoicism
sometimes is that it is a bit of a.
Deterministic.
Yeah.
Like we are all just on the
ride and just do our duty.
Yeah.
And it sounds like that's at least
Maximus is creating the sense of No,
I am the author of my own life and
whatever else in a way that we aren't
really hearing about these other folks.
That's fair.
Whom Marcus is thanking.
That's fair.
YesTo is a way to create
determinism in a world that
otherwise feels random and chaotic.
So interesting that he's thankful for
Maximus for teaching him to cultivate
almost the opposite impression, staying
on the path rather than being kept on it.
Yeah.
That is interesting.
Yeah.
The rest seems very much consistent
with the things that he is praising
the other members of this list.
As well.
The sense of humor is interesting.
Yeah.
And also he's funny.
Yeah.
. Yeah.
Funny dude.
And to put that last yeah.
Funny guy.
is really, yeah.
It's also honorable and
stoic and just funny guy.
Overall it's good.
Good bit to put sense of humor.
Number 15 on the list, it
really implies that the first 14
people were pretty human, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number 16, my adopted father,
compassion, tn unwavering adherence
to decisions once he'd reached them.
Oh, love that.
Disagreeing.
Commit indifference to superficial
honors, hard work, persistence.
Listening to anyone who could
contribute to the public good.
His dogged determination to treat
people as they deserved a sense of
when to push and when to back off.
putting a stop to the pursuit of boys.
Oh boy.
Okay.
I think I know what that is, but yep.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
His altruism, not expecting his friends
to keep him entertained at dinner or to
travel with him unless they wanted to.
Boom.
And anyone who had to stay behind
to take care of something always
found him the same when he returned
his searching questions at meetings.
Yeah.
A kind of single mindedness, almost never.
Content with first impressions or
breaking off the discussion prematurely.
Yeah.
His constancy to friends never getting
fed up with them or playing favorites.
Self-reliance always and cheerfulness
and his advanced planning well
in advance and his discrete
attention to even minor things.
His restriction on Acclamations
and all attempts to flatter him.
. His constant devotion to the empire's
needs his stewardship of the treasury,
his willingness to take responsibility and
blame for both his attitude to the gods.
No superstitious and his attitude to men.
No demagoguery.
No currying favor, no pandering.
Wow.
Always sober, always steady, and
never vulgar or a prey to fads, my
goodness, the way he handled the
material comforts that fortune had
supplied to him in such abundance,
without arrogance and without apology.
If they were there, he
took advantage of them.
If not, he didn't miss them.
No one ever called him glib
or shameless or pedantic.
They saw him for what he was.
A man tested by life, accomplished
unswayed by flattery, qualified
to govern both himself and them.
His respect for people who
practice philosophy, at least
those who were sincere about him.
, but without denigrating the
others or listening to them.
His ability to feel at ease
with people and put them at
their ease without being pushy.
His willingness to take adequate care of
himself, not a hypochondriac or obsessed
with his appearance, but not ignoring
things either with the result that he
hardly ever needed, medical attention or
drugs, or any sort of salve or ointment.
This in particular, his willingness to
yield the Florida experts in Oratory
law, psychology, whatever, and to support
them energetically so that each of
them could fulfill his potential that
he respected tradition without needing
to constantly congratulate himself for
safeguarding our traditional values.
Not prone to go off on tangents or
pulled in all directions, but sticking
with the same old places and the same
old things the way he could have.
One oh the way he could have one of his
migraines and then go right back to what
he was doing fresh and at the top of
his game, that he had so few secrets,
only state secrets, in fact, and not
all that many of those, the way he kept
public actions within reasonable bounds,
games, building projects, distribute
distributions of money and so on, because
he looked to what needed doing and not
the credit to be gained from doing it.
Wow.
No bathing at strange hours, no
self-indulgent building projects, no
concern for food or the cut and color of
his clothes, or having attractive slaves.
The robe from his farm at Laurium,
most of the things at Lenu, the way
he accepted the custom, a customs
agent's apology at Tusculum, et cetera.
He never exhibited rudeness, lost
control of himself, or turned violent.
No one ever saw him sweat.
, everything was to be approached logically
and with due consideration in a calm
and orderly fashion, but decisively and
with no loose ends, you could have said
of him, as they say, of Socrates, that
he knew how to enjoy and abstain from
things that most people find it hard to
abstain from and all too easy to enjoy.
Strength, perseverance,
self-control in both areas.
The mark of a soul in readiness.
Indomitable, parenthesis, maxim's illness.
Okay.
Wow.
idn.
is incredible.
Or at least Marcus thinks so.
Yeah.
Yep.
He really likes Trajan.
Yeah.
It trajan sounds great.
I want Trajan to be our emperor, frankly.
Yeah.
It's a, obviously that
is an extremely , yeah.
Lavish description of a, what Marcus
clearly perceives as a great man.
I, this one I read with no I think
he actually thinks this about Trajan.
I don't think he's being selective
with which part he, which with
the gratitude here, he's certainly
writing much bonker about trade than
he is about everybody else this far.
I felt almost like a little tear.
Yeah.
Like I, it was deep.
Marcus believes this.
Yeah.
And it probably drives him, frankly,
like the reason he's out here in a shitty
ca, tent in, in Germany is probably
because of his deep founded belief
and how great his adoptive father was.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think to your point, I
also just reading that can, the
gratitude is so palpable there.
Oh yeah.
Boy wouldn't it be, I'm.
, wouldn't we all love to feel that kind
of gratitude all the time to have anyone
in your life to feel that kind of,
don't know if I feel that about anyone.
Don't know gratitude.
Yeah, totally.
That is, everyone is like
complicated and has Yeah.
Issues.
I don't know if I have anyone in my
life where I'm like, yeah, could write.
Yeah, it's just, it's, yeah.
Maybe he's just writing the book.
Maybe he does know some of the
complexity and and he's just not
mentioning it, but boy was that powerful.
Yeah.
And I'm also admiring how Marcus, by
being as selective with his praise as
he has been for the previous people
on the list, the length and yeah.
Lavishness of this brace hits hard
because you're like, holy shit.
Yeah.
All you said about your mom was like two
things that she took, like she generosity
and respect for the divine or whatever.
Yeah.
And the living simply, and then all that.
Yeah.
Is wow.
Yeah.
No more little boys.
That was good too.
Yeah.
Some very funny ones too.
Yeah.
No, don't take attractive slaves.
No.
Bathing at strange times.
Don't bathe at strange times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some other stuff too
that felt relevant today.
This bit about his willingness
to take adequate care of himself.
Caught.
Yeah.
Caught my, your, that I think is
something that, it's like a Gen Z thing.
Yeah.
Is, it feels very relevant in
the modern day and I think it's
still something a lot of, yeah.
On a lot of people's
minds, myself included.
Yeah.
The bit about to living like
Socrates and being capable of
both enjoying and abstaining
from life's pleasures, basically.
I can see why if you are in the
military, you like bring a copy
of the meditations on campaign.
Listen to this, right?
Yeah.
This is so inspiring.
You read this before bed, you
wake up tomorrow and you're like,
I'm gonna totally do my job.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
But it's, it, I think I'm struck too,
maybe this is obvious with, given that the
title is Meditations, but how much this
is a book that we might put in the sort
of mindfulness section of the bookstore.
In the mod modern era.
It feels very connected to the sort
of mindfulness movement and all the
sort of attendant religious traditions.
And stuff.
clearly, this is a guy who spends
a ton of time in reflection and
gratitude and all sorts of very present
and not just attending to all the
busyness of being the emperor of Rome.
Yeah.
Okay.
The last entry on the list,
that wasn't the last one.
Who's the last one?
I wonder.
That's a big one.
Number 17, the Gods of course, yeah.
Okay.
That I had good grandparents, a good
mother and father, a good sister, good
teachers, good servants, relatives,
friends, almost without exception, and
that I never lost control of myself
with any of them, although I handed in
me to do that, and I might have easily.
But thanks to the gods, I was never put
in that positions and so escaped the test
that I wasn't raised by my grandfather's
girlfriend for longer than I was.
Oh my goodness.
that I didn't lose my virginity
too early and didn't enter
adulthood until it was time.
Put it off even nice that I had someone
as a ruler and as a father who could
keep me from being arrogant and make
me realize that even at courts, you can
live without a troop of bodyguards and
gorgeous clothes, lamps, sculpture, the
whole charade that you can be, behave
almost like an ordinary person without
seeming slovenly or careless as a ruler
or when carrying out official obligations
that I had, the kind of brother I did.
one whose character challenged
me to improve my own boom.
One whose love and
affection enriched my life.
That my children weren't born
stupid or physically deformed.
Yeah.
That I wasn't more talented in
rhetoric or poetry or other areas.
If I felt that I was making
better progress, I might
never have given them up.
Wow.
That I conferred on the people who
brought me up, the honors they seemed
to want early on instead of putting
them off since they were still young,
with the hope that I would do it later.
Hello?
Okay.
That I knew Apples and rustics
and Maximus, that I was shown
clearly and often what it would be
like to live as nature requires.
The gods did all they could through
their gifts, their help, their
inspiration to ensure that I could
live as nature demands, but if I
failed, it's no one's fault, but mine.
because I didn't pay attention to what
they told me, to what they taught me
practically step by step that my body
has held out, especially considering
the life I've led, that I never laid a
finger on Benedicta or on Theo Dotas,
and that even later when I was overcome
by passion, I recovered from it.
That even though I was often upset with
Rustics, I never did anything that I
would've regretted later that even though
she died young, at least my mother spent
her last years with me, that whenever I
felt like helping someone who was short
of money or otherwise in need, I never
had to be told that I had no resources
to do it with, and that I was never put
in that position myself of having to take
something from someone else That I have
the wifi deal, obedient, loving, humble,
that my children had competent teachers.
remedies granted through dreams when
I was coughing blood, for instance,
and having fits of dizziness and
the one at Katta that when I became
interested in philosophy, I didn't
fall into the hands of charlatan's.
I didn't get bogged down in writing
treatises or become absorbed by
logic chopping or preoccupations with
physics, , all things for which we
need the help and fortune of the gods.
Fantastic.
Wow.
This is so good.
What strikes me so much about that one
in particular is that he, the stuff he's
taking for the gods for is basically
still all about the relationships
in his life and not That's right.
This guy's not religious at all.
The cir Yeah.
The circumstances of being emperor.
The afterlife or whatever.
Totally.
Like the Yeah.
The beauty of the, of life.
The world of the world or whatever.
Yeah, totally.
It's all just putting me in a position
to have good relationships in my life.
So it's just the catchall
for more gratitude?
Yeah.
Basically that, that it just
means the sort of circumstances
of his relationships.
I think it does actually, circling
back to the conversation we had before
we started reading that I'm surprised
maybe how relationship minded this whole
thing was that, obviously a gratitude
journalism is in part about, his
relationships with the various people
being listed, but also the things he
seems to be grateful for, have to do with
the lessons he's learned about how to
relate to other people here so frequently.
. Here.
So I think this allays some of my concern.
This is just a book for like
military guys to like, put your
head down and do your duty.
It's not, it's about that, but it's
a lot, about, a lot more than that.
It is really about, yeah, relationships
and how to live with them, which makes
me much more interested in reading.
Yeah.
The rest of it than it, than I
would be if it just felt isolated.
Me too.
I'm shocked off my stool at how
relevant this feels and how this is
a fantastic translation, obviously,
but it's it reads so modern.
Yeah.
I would maybe have substituted the word
fortune or luck or something instead
of God, but other than that, yeah.
I think you, I think you and the
little boys, but like everything
else seems very reasonable.
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's probably a
credit to the translator.
The brief readings I did
with the other translations.
Sure did feel considerably more.
But it's the concept of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and the pros is,
it kicks ass, I think.
Yeah.
I want to hear more of
what this guy is saying.
It doesn't feel obvious, but it also it
sound, it's the quality of good writing
that it's resonant and an idea that you've
had, but never quite put in two words.
I think it, for me, it checks that box.
Yeah.
And the fact that he ended with
God in his private journal Yeah.
Strikes me as, as funny because I think
I, I was writing this private journal,
I would've stopped at the last person.
Yeah.
So maybe he, this is God actually does
like that, is he is religious enough to
feel like he, the list has to include.
You.
That's interesting.
I read it more as not necessarily that he
feel like he's doing this out of some sort
of re religious obligation because oh, if
I haven't thanked God, then I've been bad.
But more that he is distinguishing
between what the people in his life have
actively taught him through their actions.
Versus the things that
just lock he learned that
happened through circumstance.
Basically.
And so some of this is just, yeah.
That people weren't stupid or
that I was able to control myself.
He's doing an interesting blend
of, I am in control of myself, but
then sometimes when things go well,
it's really just because the god's
put me in a situation to do well.
Oh yeah.
I think the role of luck is
super important in stoicism.
The whole point of stoicism is
that you can't control most things.
Control what you can control.
. So that doesn't seem like a
contradiction at all to me.
. I guess I hear what you're saying.
Yeah.
But he does have some Bob Bits here
about he says sorry, something about
when I did screw up, it was all my fault,
basically, as opposed to anybody else.
Oh, that's true.
Yeah.
Yes.
He says, oh, I see that.
Which is very deterministic,
which like, if I, yes.
Yeah.
The God said all they could
through their gifts, their help,
their inspiration to ensure that
I could live as nature demands.
And if I failed, it's no one's fault
but mine, because I didn't pay attention
to what they told me, to what they
taught me practically, step by step.
That's, oh, you're right.
That's hit my ear a little bit.
You're right.
Oh, wait, does that, oh, thats
putting so much pressure on yourself.
Yes.
That's like the opposite of what, how
I internalize what I think of stoicism.
Huh.
So maybe the way I can reconcile that
a little bit is the idea that , the,
it seems like the only way you
can fail at sto sm is to failure
of process to have fail yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
To have failed yourself.
And in that case it is no one's fault
but your own, because you had the
option to live consistently with your
duties and obligations or whatever.
Yeah.
And you haven't done that.
And I guess to be fair,
I think you're right.
Yeah.
Like external things that
happen, like your kid dying Yeah.
Is never your fault.
So not, it's not even
worth mentioning that.
There's no point in discussing that.
Yeah.
Because you did your job.
And that's all that matters.
Yeah.
What do you make of this phrase,
and maybe this is just antiquity or
whatever, but to live as nature requires.
He raises that several times.
What do you make of that?
Yeah.
I think the word nature
is gonna keep coming up.
And I believe that it's being
used in the context of like you
were born into this position.
, and it's almost the nature of my
privilege, the nature of my position, and
not like nature as in like I'm an animal.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's what I, what do
you, does that, yeah.
I think I, that seems like a sort of
peculiarity of translation that I was
scratching my head at a little bit, but I
think that is consistent with, to me, with
what's being said in, in this passage.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Cool.
Any closing thoughts on the
first book of meditations here?
No.
I'm looking forward to having done
more research for the next episode.
Yeah.
I think we will start with
here's what we learned.
Yeah.
So maybe we read the the introduction.
We'll read the introduction Yeah.
Here, and I'll probably reread
this chapter maybe once or twice
just to like really internalize
it and then we'll keep going.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the spoiler for next episode
is that book two is entitled On
the River Grande among the Kui.
. Claudia Kuwaiti, Q U A D I GR for grant.
I think that's modern day Germany.
Okay.
So we are going to, rather than having
a sort of gratitude journal style entry.
Yeah, this sounds like it will be a
more traditional journal entry I guess.
Fantastic.
Thank you Tom.
Cool, thanks.
See ya.
Bye.