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Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Devin Bramhall [00:00:00]:
Hi, this is Devin. Margaret and I recently recorded an episode. And the episode was supposed to be about influence versus fame and somehow in my dad's attic office and Margaret recording from somewhere beautiful and normal, which I think is a perfect representation of us as people. We ended up talking about the things that have happened in the past two years and that are happening now in an accidental start of the year musing. And we didn't care that we weren't recording an episode. We couldn't stop going deeper into what to do with our lives at this moment. Interestingly, because of any real current events or anything like that. It's just been a transformative past for five years.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:00]:
And we sat back and talked about the progress we've made, how we made that progress, what we did that helped us, what we did that we thought would help us but didn't, and what we're doing now instead. So we got to the end of it and we wondered if maybe other people might be served by hearing this episode. Not because we want you to hear about us. We are the catalyst, I think, in this episode to the synthesis and hope and ideas for now that might help others too, or might be interesting to you. So this is why we made it a bonus episode. It's a just in case it might help. Because we know you and we know that we're not the only ones who have experienced a tumultuous, at times joyful, at times devastating experience recently, especially in the past several years. So here you go.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:08]:
The value doesn't come from me selling the stuff. The value comes from the fact that I exist in this world and I have created things.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:19]:
I think this is part of the lesson for me is like, just because people react poorly doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:25]:
What I've noticed, even about, like, self discovery and all those things, the moment that you're like, oh, good, I've solved that lesson, or I've healed that, like, childhood wound. It's. No, there's another level underneath it. I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:40]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:41]:
And this is don't say content.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:43]:
A show created in partnership with Share your genius. Hi, Margaret.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:48]:
Hi. How are you doing today?
Devin Bramhall [00:02:50]:
I am a mix, a healthy mix.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:53]:
Okay.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:54]:
Things have been chaotic recently and not necessarily unavoidable, which I think a lot of people can relate to. Right now at this moment, I don't know a lot of people who have a lot of choice over what they're dealing with and what they're doing. And so I think, particularly in the Work context. It just takes more.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:12]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:12]:
Right now. And like working with clients and stuff, it's. I don't feel bad about it because I get to talk to all these other agencies and solopreneurs. I know it's not just me, but it's interesting how much harder it is to close right now for the type of work that I do. And also delivery while I'm trying to write a book that doesn't pay anything until for a year. And also trying to launch other revenue streams that are contributors that will make times like these less chaotic. And you're like, oh, the universe ends up deciding for you what you can and can't do.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:47]:
So I did some executive functioning this weekend, which was to lie on the couch and do nothing for three days.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:53]:
I love a zero day.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:54]:
Yep. Yep.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:55]:
Or a zero. Three days.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:57]:
You know, when like a situation kind of unfolds slowly and all of a sudden. Last week would be, I would say be the week where I. I realized it this week is where I'm like, taking back control and saying, like, how can I proactively plan to have a better January? So I'm feeling in a good place with that. I killed a few darlings.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:15]:
That's always helpful.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:16]:
Well, sorry deprioritized a few times. I was like, you don't need to do it all right now. You're safe and it's fine. So I did a little bit of darling delaying and being hyper realistic. Like, how much work can I do and still feel happy and balanced and relaxed?
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:36]:
Do you set, like, yearly goals or themes or how do you do that?
Devin Bramhall [00:04:42]:
You don't know this, but it's a bridge. Oh, my God. You just introduced a bridge to the topic and you don't even know. This is amazing. Okay. When I came out of cancer in at the end of February, I set three priorities for me for this year. And I originally shorthanded it as body, money, and fame, but I amended it to be body, money and influence. And so the body and money were counteractions to cancer.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:16]:
Right. Recovering physically from cancer is such a long and painful journey. So making time for that and then money was just obviously getting back on my feet from abruptly having to abandon the workforce. And then the third thing was, what was the dopamine hit for me? What was going to drive me? Originally I said fame, but I was like, that's not it for me. I like speaking in front of crowds. I like being known to some degree. But I realized that the hamster wheel of going for fame in Our space with social media and like the kind of things you necessarily need to do these days. I was like, oh, that sounds horrible.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:57]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:58]:
And so I reflected on my current situation and I was like, I have influence. You know what I mean? People go to me for answers, for recommendations, for counsel, for coaching. And I'm much closer with the people in my network, even if there are a few sort of spheres out. And I like that because it's a really rich experience for me. So I realized that influence is what I cared about and being able to quantify that more just for my own financial benefit.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:28]:
When I hear you talk about it, it seems like fame is people knowing who you are and you being different places and influence. There's a sense of action to it, or there's a sense of purpose to being known and being there, which is that you want somebody to do something differently or think differently because you were in this world rather than just know your face and your name.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:53]:
Yeah. It's like the shorthand for me is I'm strategically accessible because when you're famous, you stop being able to be as accessible. I want to be impactful. I like helping people. That was like, I just. You and I have talked about this ad nauseum. If I could just help whoever I felt like helping whenever they come to me and somehow I lived comfortably.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:14]:
Yeah, that would be great.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:16]:
So tell me, what were your, whatever you call them, Goals, priorities.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:20]:
I have like my big vision. I have what? My legacy that I want to be known for. If I happen to be known in seven generations, what would I want people to say about me? I have my mission, my vision, my values, my aptitudes. And then I go into a 10 year. What I want my life to look like in 10 years. I do a three year one. I have a one year actual with some goals. So this past year was to be a calm, loving and present mother for my son, to maintain strong finances and to be brave enough to thrive.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:52]:
So the theme last year was really around audacity. And then this coming year I'm circling around doing the same thing. But I think my theme is going to be a calm woman. Not just be calm for my son, but just walk through the world as a calm woman. I feel like that's a radical idea to not always be stressed out as a woman.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:11]:
Oh, that was gonna be my next question. Calm for who?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:13]:
Calm inside, calm inside, calm outside. I radiate calmness instead of feeling like I have to frantically buzz through the world.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:21]:
That's really cool. How do you Think you did last year. Like, how do you feel having set those intentions?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:30]:
I'm proud of myself. I think I did a good job. I'd give myself, if I was gonna, like, letter grades or whatever, probably gave myself a B plus on being a calm, present loving mother to Everett. And I feel good about, like, maintain strong finances. Felt good about that. That was like, that's not a. That's more of a pass fail than, like, an ABCD kind of grading system. And then I would give myself an A plus on being brave enough to thrive.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:52]:
I feel like I really knocked that one out of the park. You did this year.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:56]:
You did.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:56]:
And embracing that theme of audacity, like, I would really liked that idea of just whatever. I'm just gonna do me. I'm gonna ask for what I want to ask for. I'm gonna move and make decisions based on how they feel in my body in that given moment. Like, I. Like the Glennon Doyle talks about making decisions and whether that feels like expansive or contractive in your body, like, to make that decision. And I really liked that idea of it, which is like, I don't need to have every single logical data point. I just have to move towards the things that feel expansive.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:27]:
Yeah, that's awesome. Overall, A minus.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:30]:
Yeah, I feel like I'm an A student. And the best part is there's no external grading system to validate that I feel good about what I did that year.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:40]:
So that's the only thing that matters here is do you feel it's not like, oh, I did a bad job? It's more like, oh, like, for me this year, the reason why I'm so depressed is that I thought I had learned all these lessons that would help me better be myself in the world and make space for myself and advocate for what I need. And it turns out I realized recently that, no, I just thought I was. But I was doing it in superficial ways only because I didn't know what it really looked like. And then I realized that everybody, like, thinks of me as telling the truth all the time, and I do, but I just realized there's a way. I haven't even recognized a truth around myself and the depths to which I have learned and really embraced hiding who I am with everyone just to, in a way, make them feel calm by being around me. Because I've always considered myself to be a lot. Like, in those exact words, I'm like, oh, I'm too much for people. I'm too much for people.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:54]:
And it's been so deep. My Whole life. Like, this has been my experience since I was a child, Right? And so it's like, when you grow up that way and you have loving parents, it's easy to think you're doing more. But you go out in the world and you're like, you just make yourself smaller and smaller until you wake up at 41 in 2024 and realize that you may be physically alive, but you're dead inside. And you hate your whole life leading up to it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:22]:
And you're like, whoa, those are big things. What I've noticed even about, like, self discovery and all of those things. The moment that you're like, oh, good, I've solved that lesson, or I've healed that, like, childhood wound. It's no, there's another level underneath it.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:40]:
It's a bonus level, but it's like the worst level of them all.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:45]:
There's, like, always a bigger boss. You're like, wait, am I done yet? I thought I won this game. I solved that problem. It's. Nope. It's like Russian nesting dolls of life lessons. There's just another one inside of it. Maybe it's a little bit.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:00]:
Actually, it's probably bigger. It's like the reverse of the Russian nesting doll where they actually.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:06]:
It's rock bottom. Honestly, it doesn't present as outwardly as if we were suffering from a disease like drug addiction or alcoholism. So you just walk around. Everyone thinks you're like, you have your together. Which is quite possibly the most infuriating thing in the world for me because I just choose not to walk around miserable, right? I choose to try to feel good every day and be positive and make the most of every day. And I don't think that's like, whatever people used to call that toxic positivity or whatever. I think that's like a really strategic way to go through life because I get to laugh even when I'm miserable and have fun. But it's hard to make that choice because that's what works best for me.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:48]:
But then be out in the world where everyone naturally interprets it at face value, which make sense. And then have everyone be like, oh, you're like, you're not fine. They're like, you look fine. I'm like, I know, because I don't cry about it anymore. I'm choosing not to walk around miserable. But then the problem is if you don't show it, then nobody knows to make space for you. So then you have to make more effort to tell people to make space for you, even though you look Fine. Which makes them forget every.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:17]:
It's bizarre.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:19]:
I hear you so clearly and loudly right now. Because I think the other thing that was coming up as you were talking that I was thinking about is like, other people can only know us to the degree that we know ourselves. And earlier it sounded to me like even you were lying to yourself about, yes. Some aspect of you or some. Whatever. I think those are the most interesting things is like, can you ever know somebody that's not willing to do the work on themselves, to deeply understand and love and map all of the pieces of themselves in their mind? And I come back to that pretty frequently. Of the people that most resonate in my life are the people that have done that or are, like, constantly in that journey of learning themselves more and being truthful about who they are, not only to other people, but first and foremost to themselves. Because if somebody is not willing to understand a piece of themselves or look at it, or maybe it's scary to them or whatnot, how could you ever really build, like, a deep emotional relationship with that person? Because they don't even know themselves.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:21]:
They don't know what they need. They don't know what they want. They don't know anything.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:25]:
This is like, such a soul conversation. Because I'm like, you just spoke to my soul. I get that. And this comes out in relationships and where if you're someone who does the work and something isn't right with you and you haven't figured it out yet, you're able to at least identify something's not right. And then I kept thinking along the way that I had gotten there, like, it wasn't intentional lying. It was like, yeah, I just didn't know what I didn't know about myself. And so then if you're with someone who, like, doesn't also get that. And I think that's probably where I got recently, where I was like, oh, I'm the only one who cares about taking myself and us forward, and therefore, like, we're no longer a match.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:10]:
Because I'm like, it's not that you don't care about me necessarily. It's just that that's not where you're at. And so that's why I feel so lonely all the time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:20]:
Yeah. And feeling lonely in a relationship is the worst feeling ever. I would rather feel lonely by myself, because I actually don't feel lonely by myself. I'm actually pretty good at, like, hanging out with myself. And so to feel lonely with somebody feels absolutely the worst because I'm like, I would Actually feel less lonely if I was actually by myself.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:42]:
Yeah. Like, it was almost a relief at first because everything goes in phases, like the cancer where, like, there's an initial phase of relief where you're like, I could literally be like, oh, yeah, we broke up because he didn't love me. And that was like the bare bones truth. It wasn't like, oh, drama. I was like, no, did not. Factually, he would agree. And so I'm like, okay, that felt better because I felt like I taken ownership of it. Like, he and I had the nuance behind it, and that was enough.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:17]:
I was like, obviously, like, you care about me as a person and like, whatever. And so, like, initially, you just feel almost, like, brighter by that aloneness to exactly what you're talking about. You're choosing to be alone because that's what makes you feel whole. And then for me, it, like, flips abruptly over. I don't know how I've survived being single my entire life, like, most of my entire life, because I realized after this one that I'm like, the reason why I spin out of control in my life and end up living like this is my whole life is because I get lonely and I fill the space up.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:53]:
I think it's interesting to. To think about what I have gained in my internal trust and makes me feel more calm about the different phases of life. And I think about my own relationship with ambition. And I don't think I'm like, a deeply ambitious person as a character trait, but I think I have it and I like to, like, pick it up and play with it and put it back down. But that what's. I've also beaten myself up over that because I'm not particularly ambitious of need to go do that thing. I never had, like, aspirations of being in the C suite and whatever. I think it's that I have built up enough trust in myself that where I point my attention, those things grow.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:35]:
And so it's less about me having to do everything all of the time and more me recognizing that's not where I'm putting my attention right now, but my attention is powerful. If I put it somewhere, I can grow it right. I can grow my career, I can grow my finances, I can grow relationships, I can grow my artistic practice. And it's. So it's less about, oh, gosh, I should do more. Should be more and more like, no, I'm choosing right now to put my attention in these places because I've decided these are the most important things right now. And other times in my life, I might put my attention somewhere else and grow that thing, But I don't have to do it all right now because I trust that, like, where I put my attention is powerful.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:14]:
That's a huge life milestone, because even this weekend, I was like, you know what? Friday, I'm just not. I've been working 80 hours a week. Every single day. Every single day, I wake up with more to do that. People are counting on me for that. I actually have the ability to do it. And I'm like, okay. I can't afford to hire people right now because I'm trying to build up my business.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:33]:
So it's like, it's been this chaos. So originally I was like, I'm just gonna stop for one day. But I've been pushing so hard for so long that Friday wasn't enough. And then it bled into Saturday. I was like, you know what? It's fine. I'll catch up Sunday. I'll have the energy. Sunday.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:48]:
I didn't actually. And I still had to call my mom because I could feel the internal monologue of, Devin, you're not doing enough. Like, you should be the shoulds.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:01]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:01]:
I was like, I need you to talk me out of this, because I.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:05]:
Know I need you to validate my life decisions right now. Which I said, I'm gonna just continue to rest.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:10]:
Yeah. And she did. And I was like, okay. And even this week, I've been slow. Like, I just keep, like, canceling stuff to accommodate for however I'm feeling in the moment. And luckily, I live. I'm. The people in my life are very like, I have.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:26]:
I purged the baddies. Right. A long time ago. But I think what's interesting in that is a. That takes. That took me until 41 to even be able to start doing in a meaningful way. And then the second thing is those times when you know what you really need, but you're not really able to focus on them. I think that is where I've burnt out on work and accomplishing things in my life because it never brought me any of the things that I wanted.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:59]:
Literally nothing. Like, it's. If I think back to it, I'm like, I thought I would be more lovable if I was successful and make a good partner because I could stand on my own two feet and be independent. Turns out nobody wants that. And I thought success would build up my financial security, which I didn't have growing up. And that didn't happen either, because being a woman, you don't get the same thing that the men got around you that you helped provide. So you. You look back and you're like, now I'm ready.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:31]:
But it's. You kind of. You have to go a little longer first. And I think that's important to acknowledge because it's. You have to work with being deemed, with being demoralized on such a cellular level and keep going. I feel like there's a lot of people at that place recently where it's like, I don't know why, can't imagine why over the past three years, anyone's gotten there, but it's. I'm there too. And it's.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:53]:
It's hard. It's hard on a level that, like, I don't even know what to say.
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:58]:
Yeah. How I have thought about that is any time that I place a sense of security on external factors, I will feel safe and secure. If this thing happens or I get this thing or I finally get to this level that has always failed me. I have to trust that I am okay no matter what happens in the external bit. But that's a really hard lesson. I'm still. I'm not perfectly there yet, but those are the things that I've realized. And I think it's normal for us as human beings to try to find a sense of control or predictability through goals, through religion, through structures, through hierarchy, through whatever it might be.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:45]:
And I think that even I also had a similar upbringing of, like, there was some financial insecurity, got a job at 15 years old just to contribute to my own security at that point. It's one of those things of. Even when I had the safety net in my bank account that I thought would finally get me to feel safe and comfortable, that thing inside of me, I carried it with me. Do you know what I mean? It's. It doesn't actually exist outside of me. The desire for control and the feeling of insecurity is inside of me regardless of the external factors, but then actually makes me feel better because then it's not about the external factors. It's like something that I can work on myself.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:30]:
Yeah. When someone says something and you're like, it, like, makes you feel calm, I think you're crushing your 20, 25 goals already. What I'm trying to say, because, like, when you said that, I was like, oh, yeah. It felt so true that it, like, quieted me down. And not in a bad way, but in the. Oh, yeah. Like, that perfectly describes how I went about feeling safe my entire life, even from the time I was a kid, because there Was so much out of my control, including, we physically moved a lot.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:02]:
And.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:03]:
And that really affected me a lot. And so it makes sense to me that everything. All my solutions were external, but also why it ultimately did not work at all. And the universe. I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, why is it that anytime I get somewhere, the universe, like, sweeps the rug out of my entire life in some way? Like, I'm starting to make progress building up wealth while working animals. And then, like, immediately, once I hit my stride, it's like, everything comes crashing down. Right.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:39]:
Same with getting sick and all that. And I realized. I'm like, that the universe is. You're still not listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:47]:
You thought that was gonna make you feel safe and secure? No, I'm just gonna take. That's another lesson for you. We're gonna take it away.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:53]:
Yeah. But then when I look back on, like, even this fall, right when I was making these decisions about how I wanted to support myself going forward and that I wanted it to be more, like, with the newsletter and the. The video stuff, I was like, that's just. It's creative. It's play for me. And so I let myself be a little insecure. I was like, I can give myself until January, honestly. Then the work came my way anyway.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:21]:
And then I tried to do everything, and that was wrong. Fine. The human Barbie came out. I have let myself acknowledge this lack of my need for stability enough to not need it as much and be able to sit, like, take risks like that, where I'm like, oh, stretch a little. Like, I never would have done that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:40]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:40]:
Before.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:41]:
Yeah. And it sounds like that's trusting, like, within that deep well inside of you to be like, oh, I am gonna be okay.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:50]:
And you know what? Actually, now that you mention it, it is partly trust of me. But the thing is, I've been trusting myself my whole life. The problem is, I'm the only one I've been trusting because I'm the only one who's proven to me that I will always be there. I'm not gonna abandon you randomly. Not my. This isn't like, my parents or anything, but, like. And, like, I have the most resilience. Right.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:16]:
And so I can trust myself. What I haven't trusted is the universe. And the way I see that show up is I haven't left any space for the universe to jump in. And so the universe only jumps in in horrible ways because.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:32]:
To teach you.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:32]:
You know what I mean? So it's like, it was on me, too. I was like, I needed to trust something outside myself and I'm realizing now I really didn't.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:38]:
Yeah. And it still, I think, comes back to this. I feel like it always comes back to the sense of needing to control. Right. Build up such a plan and frantic energy to go do the things. And you don't leave the space for the serendipity of the universe. What you're trying to do is control the outcome. And I think what you've realized and what I've realized in my life, you've been looking back.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:03]:
I actually did this really interesting activity of doing a timeline of my life, of the different things that have happened. Like on actual graph paper here on graph paper.
Devin Bramhall [00:26:14]:
Whoa. How big does that get? Whoa.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:21]:
And I like think back of like five or six years ago what I would have thought my life was right now. It's just so funny to see it all written out where you're like, you can go back into those memories or those stories and remember what was so important to you or what you thought the path or trajectory was, and then be like, oh, I was so wrong. And then it gives you such like a. Why would I even try to plan for the future? You know what I mean? Like, I have, I want my, like my 10 year vision. And my doc is more about, like, how do I want to feel in 10 years? What am I surrounded by? It's vague enough to be like, I'm in a beautiful home filled with like, art and handcrafted pottery and you know what I mean? And I have maybe a garden and a whatnot. But I'm not like, I'm going to be in this, like, this specific house or in this whatever, because who the hell knows? And it's like, how do I want to feel? I'm surrounded by people that love me. Everett has hobbies and interests and is becoming his own unique person. It's written very much in the vague enough language that it's like, allowing for the serendipity of the universe to take me in the directions that it needs to.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:29]:
But I still know that I want to feel good and that crafted items and beautiful things handmade by people are important to me and I want to, like, feel a certain way. But it's to think that I'm going to be like, at a certain company or with a certain income level or whatever. Who the hell knows?
Devin Bramhall [00:27:45]:
Yeah. That's what I think is really beautiful about your model is when you set an intention, it is still useful, I believe, personally, to be specific in certain areas.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:56]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:56]:
But it's which areas you're specific in that really matter? My vision for myself for 2025. First, I was like, what would make me feel more relaxed? What help do I need that I have control over getting? And I was like, I'm gonna hire a house cleaner. I'm gonna get a personal trainer. And I was like, I don't care what this costs. I'm gonna do this because this will help my spirit calm down and make me feel cared for.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:28]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:29]:
And I need that. Right. I was more specific in, like, in the feelings I wanted to have. I made it vague where I'm like, I want financial stability. And that means that this is what financial stability means to me for 2025.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:43]:
Yeah. Like, I don't worry about putting guac on my Chipotle bowl if that. If I can walk into Target and really just get whatever I want. If I can walk through, like, the clothing section of Target and pick up the things I want, that to me is like, I'm in a good. Like, I'm in the financial stability realm.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:00]:
The fact that I still think about that, to varying trees, I'm not. Obviously, I make. My baseline is higher than before, but it's not enough. It's not really where I expected it to be. Like, I expected to have more options at this point in my life, given how much I've invested in getting myself those opportunities and not waiting for the universe, like, for the culture to change and make space for me to be a person.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:27]:
Just even hear you saying, I did it so that I wouldn't have to wait for the universe to do it for me.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:37]:
Well, just, like, cultural stuff. Right. Like, I can't control the fact that, like, women in power is not equitable. You know what I mean? Like, there's certain things I know I can't change that right now, but I can create. Try to create a reality for myself.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:54]:
And the stories we tell ourselves are powerful.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:56]:
Right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:56]:
And I think it's the stories that we tell ourselves about our past create our current reality.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:04]:
Yeah. And I'm a really good storyteller.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:07]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:08]:
I was the first to hate on Gen Z and how, like, just ridiculous they are. But there's a part of the way they operate that I actually really appreciate, which is, regardless of what you think about me or how I come across, I am only going to do what I feel like in the moment. And I'm not afraid of what that may do to my future, because this is how I want to feel right now. And I care about what I feel more than what you think of me?
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:42]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:43]:
I'm like, can't hate on that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:45]:
Yeah, I think people do hate on that. But I think that's such a perfect encapsulation. I think that they're understanding more so about how short life can be. And so I think they were raised with a little bit of this. Like, why would I even care about operating within this system? That I would have to fold myself in a pretzel and then delay my inevitable happiness until I retire by doing this, like, grunt job that, like, doesn't pay well, that I'm all like. I think they saw, like, we still were raised on, like, the glimmer and hope of the fact that hard work will get you to the American dream. And I think they grew up and they're like, there's no path for me for homeownership. Because I think they just are more realistic about the fact that, like, this system is not working.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:37]:
And so they're like, whatever, let's just not do that one yourself.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:41]:
Happy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:42]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:42]:
I mean, look at this is. The thing I keep going back to is I'm like, oh, if I'd accomplished the exact same things, I wouldn't be working so hard to do anything. The opportunities I've been forced to give men in my career based on my own success. And at the same time, not despite putting effort into learning how to advocate for myself more and better throughout my career and being brave and doing that, I was like, it was never going to work more than it did. And so if I had realized that, could I have done something different that made me happier? Because I would have accepted things as they were instead of trying to change them and found a way to thrive outside of it, but taking it into account.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:28]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:29]:
And instead I tried to change it. I tried to make a difference for too fucking long. And you know what? Nothing happened.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:36]:
I was having a conversation, I'll say, with a friend, and she was talking about how she's come to this realization. She's close to 40, and she, in her last role, did everything perfectly, and she still ended up leaving that role. She left the project that was hers, that was very important and actually doing some real good in the world. She did everything to a level of perfection, and it still didn't work. And she's like, why did I feel the need to be so perfect the entire time if the outcome is still out of my control? Like, she was trying to control the outcome by controlling herself in this level of perfectionism, but it's not. It doesn't work. You can be as perfect as you want and stuff in life still might.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:40]:
Not work right in the workplace. I think that's especially true for women and underrepresented groups. Because you could be a man and do 10% some of the time. And because I see it, case in point, I have been asked to make exceptions for mediocre people, white men specifically, just because another white guy wanted me to do it. So that is a factual thing. It's not. Whatever. So especially in work, if she's doing it in her career, if she's applying it in her career, like, of course it doesn't work.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:10]:
Yeah, yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:11]:
And it's specific to her because she's a she.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:14]:
Yeah, yeah. The person that took over the project is a white man. So her project with her intellectual property, then. I think how I translate that then is then I'm not going to be perfect. If I would waste all of that time, energy, emotions, to be perfect and that's not actually a way to control the situation, then fuck perfection.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:39]:
You said that to me. I remember vividly early on when we were doing the podcast. You said something to me along those lines. You're like, devin, the reason why you get upset still is because you do still have hope. You're like, I don't believe you when you say you don't.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:57]:
We were talking about. About misogyny and the patriarchy, and I was like, you through the world expecting to not see it. And then you get frustrated when it shows up. And I walk through the world seeing it very clearly, and then I get really excited if there's a space without it.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:12]:
Yeah. And I think it's a very Zen. If you apply it in a healthy way.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:20]:
Yeah. I'm not, like, looking around corners or, like, trying to identify it all the time. I just. It doesn't shock me when it shows up because I'm like, yeah, that's the way of the world.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:29]:
Right. But I would say the reason I point that out is because I think they're like, this happened after the election where I started to have to purge the people who acknowledge that and are constantly angry. That was too. That became too hard and unproductive for me. I was like, this is actually making me feel worse. Whereas, like, your example and the way I've observed you since we've known each other is it just brings you calm. It keeps you at this baseline. It's funny, I was talking to two of my friends on Sunday, and we were talking along these lines and about relationships, too, and just, like, all the ways I'd folded myself into a pretzel, and one of them asked me.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:11]:
She said, what do you want to do now? Or what feels right to you? And I was like, nothing. I said, literally nothing. I'm going to do nothing because it's the only thing I haven't tried.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:24]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:25]:
I was like. And it's. What I mean by nothing is obviously, like, just acting on my own behalf exclusively, no matter how anyone feels about it. Because I was like, I keep trying to solve for everything in any given moment, and it doesn't work. I don't even care about the world anymore. Like, I'm mad at, like, more than one group of people. And I'm just like, none of you have chipped in enough is basically how I feel. I'm like, you haven't chipped in enough, and you're just complaining.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:02]:
And I'm now really choosy about who I help.
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:06]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:07]:
And who I invest time in. Because I'm like, most of you aren't worth it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:10]:
I think that the biggest changes in my life have been when I realize what I've been doing isn't working. And my only path forward is to opt out of that scenario and go to your point. Go do nothing for a while. Because if I've been doing a whole bunch of stuff and I can't actually change it here. And I do think individuals can create huge change. Right. I think that's even why you're talking about influence versus fame. Like, we can be really influential as individual human beings, but also recognizing that we won't fix every place, we won't fix every relationship, we won't fix every.
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:55]:
Like, other people have their own internal autonomy to do whatever they want to do or whatever they're deciding to do. And we get to do that too. Right. If it's not working for us, we also get to move our feet to a. To a different place and not participate in that system or that relationship or that company or that job role or whatever it is. We also have the same way that the other people are acting a fool. And if I had a magic wand, lots of people would be acting a lot differently.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:28]:
Yep.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:29]:
But I don't.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:30]:
I'll speak for myself. It's really my ego that needs the external validation of seeing that change happen.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:37]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:38]:
When I won't necessarily ever. Some of the most famous painters were famous posthumously. And it's. I think I have to remember that if I truly want change, then I can't focus on whether or not I've been gratified Or I have to just trust that I'm acting in a way that will make change.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:01]:
I think about that as my own artistic practice, which is, like, the value doesn't come from me selling the stuff. The value comes from the fact that I exist in this world and I have created things. That's enough. Right.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:24]:
And for me, it's that I like what I created. Like, when I look at it, I'm like, I feel some kind of fulfillment.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:31]:
Yeah. I would even say, yeah, fulfillment's great. I would say more so than that, it's that it feels true to me.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:40]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:41]:
Because I don't care if it even feels true to anyone else. I mean, I. That is part of my mission is to create shared languages that create a sense of belonging and togetherness and blah, blah, blah. Yes. Ideally, everything I do, I want there to be on the other end, somebody that kind of recognizes it. But I think what I've understood is that it's bound to be true for someone else if it's true for me.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:06]:
Yeah. And that can be the whole idea of shared language and belonging. Creating that can be your mission in life, but it doesn't have to be the overt thing you're doing in every part of your life. There's just pieces of it in smaller, big ways and different things. And you're like, the art is mostly for me.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:25]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:25]:
And by being for me, it still fulfills this mission.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:28]:
But it's my own language. And so it's like my visual language that makes sense to me. Maybe it's a shared language between my conscious and subconscious when I'm building that bridge through it.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:40]:
Yeah. And one thing that's been interesting, like, for me to observe, and this is the closest comparison I have to making art because I've realized that, like, how I present in the world really matters to people. Like, there's an expectation around, like, who I'm gonna be, and I'm not always fully aware of it. And the times when it's the most obvious to me is when I act an antithesis of that. And so right now is a perfect example. When I tell people, like, besides you and my really good friend Emily that I give up, they're like, great, okay, sounds good. Right? But other people. I was out with my friend the other night, and he was like, I was sharing all this with him, and he's okay, so what are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna do to get, like, all this stuff? And I was like, oh, no, I don't have a.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:34]:
Don't I was like, nothing. I'm doing a whole bunch of nothing. Did you not? And which, again, being a very supportive, wonderful friend, this was. It was a productive thing to say, ostensibly. But I still had to be like, oh, no, there's nothing. Zero contribution to solving this. Was acknowledging it and describing it in detail. That's it for right now.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:55]:
That's all the. And it's all the answers I have. So I'm not going to pretend like I have more. But it's funny to see how the world reacts when you start to do that. Like, even when you start to put up boundaries and it's, oh, wow. It is both a relief, but it can be a little bit jarring when you start to experience the reaction to it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:17]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:18]:
And you weren't fully aware of all the ways you were compromising and needed boundaries because you're me and you're 41, and you just discovered this all of a sudden. These, like, I had this period where everybody kept getting mad at me. There was a couple times I was like, I don't think I'm sorry for this. And that's unusual for me. Right. And I was like, I had to spend a really long time thinking about it and be like, what am I actually sorry for? I think this is part of the lesson for me is like, just because people react poorly doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:53]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:54]:
That takes so much trust. And so in yourself.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:57]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:58]:
I definitely didn't have before. I was always like, how do I fix this? How do I make this better? You're right. I'm like. I was always like, yes, there's more I can do. And I'm like, no.
Margaret Kelsey [00:43:08]:
Yeah. How I think about boundaries, too, is anytime that I've realized, like, oh, that was a porous boundary that I probably need to put somewhere, I usually swing too far because I have no idea where that boundary should be placed. And then inevitably, there's that. That saying of, like, the people who react the worst to your boundaries were the people that were benefiting from your lack of boundaries. So then I anticipate, no matter what, where I put this boundary, I'm going to have a negative reaction. But if I have a negative reaction, I still go back to, did I over swing that boundary? Should I have put it somewhere different? Like, the actual, like, negative reaction of you setting a boundary could mean that you put it too far, like, you swung it too far. Or it just could be that person benefited from you not having boundaries, and that's a perfectly fine place to put it going back to that sense of safety. If you've always only felt safe, if everyone is happy and pleased by everything that you do, then you've lost even like your sense of decision making of like, I don't know, I don't know how to take this.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:17]:
I don't know if I did it right or not. And I think that's another thing of probably a lesson that I'll bring into 2025 to continue to focus on. There's no right place for a boundary. There's no right decision in front of you. There's no like this idea. And I think it comes back to this like childhood perfectionism that's going to keep me safe. I totally am accept the fact that a lot of people need that in their life to feel safe and secure. And if there's people that I see that are really going towards some sort of dogma or some sort of binary, I also understand that they're doing that to try to be in control of something or to feel safe.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:57]:
And I completely understand that as like a basic human need. I think it's the wrong thing. I think you have to find that safety and security within yourself and walk through the world knowing that you can't control anything. And that brings me peace actually instead of anxiety for the first time that I just can't control anything and the world's gonna happen the way it's gonna happen and whatever.
Devin Bramhall [00:45:18]:
Well, I think that there's like phases of life too. Like when you say there's no right, just period, full stop. I think to me what that also says, in addition to what you were saying, is there are truly seasons of your life. And so somet the things that you do that stop working weren't necessarily working against you for a while. Maybe they were helping you and it's just not time anymore. And that's how I think about. You have been my spirit guide and like example around boundaries. Like I've just kept observing you and hearing you and how you're doing it and what's happening.
Devin Bramhall [00:45:54]:
I was thinking about all the things that you would talk to me about, how you would communicate them once you were on the other side of the pendulum swings when you were like, oh, I get how to do this, like in a less, in a different way that protects me more. It's. I realized I was like, if I set them earlier on, if I don't try to compensate so much, then I'm able to come at it with by saying, hey, I'm not even upset. I'm like, listen, here's the thing that I need. I need you to be in this with me. And here's why. And here's why I'm doing it. And it's not about you, then I can really keep it about myself.
Devin Bramhall [00:46:27]:
Versus having like recently where it was just like there were so many things in a row that like, I was like devastated for two weeks. And I realized that if there was like any possibility that anyone was gonna step on my well being or wasn't gonna honor something, like about how the chemo is still in me. My entire. Every day sucks physically in multiple ways. And it's. Even though you can't see it, it's. I found myself being like, like whoever it was just like grabbing them and chucking them out the window. I was like, there was no Grace, There was no whatever.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:02]:
I was like, I literally self destructed for my own protection. And I was like, okay, that's the pendulum swing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:09]:
That's the too far of the thing. Yeah. And I also, I think I misused boundaries for a long time as trying to control somebody else's behavior.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:19]:
Oh, yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:20]:
Rather than this is actually just a protective mechanism for me to have space in order to survive. I don't know. But it's not about controlling, it's about protecting yourself. And I think that is like a switch from the most important thing for me is to control the outcome or control the scenario versus the most important thing is my personal autonomy and independence and sense of self and self worth. Right. And it's a different, like, locus of control, which is like, oh, I don't actually need to control the situation. No matter what the outcome is. As long as I have this boundary, I will feel safe or I will feel good about myself or whatever it is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:59]:
And that's an interesting freedom. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:48:01]:
Like, that is true freedom. When I, like when I was willing to lose people, that's when I knew I was like, oh, I get it now. This is just for me. And you can opt in or opt out. And I don't. I won't be like upset either way. I'll probably be sad.
Margaret Kelsey [00:48:19]:
I'll probably have to go through the grieving process and stuff. But ultimately it's. I have to be true. This is the thing. This is the person I'm walking through the world with for the rest of my life. You know what I mean? Like, I have to put her first.
Devin Bramhall [00:48:30]:
And I think that there's a lot of ways that's. It's freedom that I didn't even know I could Ever feel. I didn't actually know what freedom felt like.
Margaret Kelsey [00:48:38]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:48:39]:
Because there was always a version of, how do I preserve something that's already there? When I talk about bravery and curiosity, which were to my values at animals. And I always say to people, I'm like, it's not. Bravery is. Is doing something that you really don't want to do. That actually your entire body and soul is telling you not to and doing it anyway. Right. And that's where I thought I had been. Like, I thought I was already there.
Devin Bramhall [00:49:11]:
And when I was with the same friend on Friday night and he'd asked me that previous question, you know what you're doing? I think before that, he asked me some version of, what do you want? What do you want to fill the space with? And the fact that I couldn't really answer. I think the one thing that was obvious is, like, after my last relationship, I was like, yeah, that's something I want in this life. Whether or not I have kids is fine. But, like, that kind of partnership, I was like, that is one kind of, like, pillar that I knew that I was like, oh, I think I value this more than I think thought I did. But beyond that, I don't even know where I would live in the world if I had a choice. That's how far away it is. And it's whoa.
Margaret Kelsey [00:49:54]:
Also, like, if I had a choice. You do have a choice. You could live wherever the you want.
Devin Bramhall [00:49:58]:
But I'm saying, like, yeah, if. If nothing mattered, like, and I couldn't tell you, I don't know right now, like, where I would even save to buy a house.
Margaret Kelsey [00:50:07]:
And right now it's just then the space needs to be space.
Devin Bramhall [00:50:11]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:50:12]:
Because you will fill the space with yourself. Rather than filling it with a relationship or goals and plans and accomplishments and whatever, just leave that space for yourself.
Devin Bramhall [00:50:24]:
And I feel like to the next layer after that, at least that I'm encountering is once I get my legs underneath me a little bit, once I've practiced a couple times. And whenever you experience the worst of something, that's. I feel like when you really get your groove, because now you're not afraid. You're not like, what happens if all the crystal falls and shatters? You're like, it falls and shatters and it's.
Margaret Kelsey [00:50:44]:
All the crystal shards are on the floor.
Devin Bramhall [00:50:46]:
What?
Margaret Kelsey [00:50:47]:
So what?
Devin Bramhall [00:50:47]:
Yeah, like, you cut your foot and you patch it up and it's fine. So I feel like the next phase, like, with some of that. With that first round of, like, bravery and proved to myself is like, I almost, like my competitiveness almost comes out in daring people to stay. Because that was always my thing. I was, I. I didn't like the leaving. Now I'm like, I dare you to. I like, I don't.
Devin Bramhall [00:51:10]:
And again, to your point, I'm like, I don't think you will, because I've been encountering myself around other people for my entire life. And I know that to a lot of people, my shine is also the thing that, like, they can't handle long term. So the thing that attracts them to me, makes them want to reject me. And I'm like, now it just, it makes me feel even happier and calmer because I'm like, I'm like both daring them to leave and to stay at the same time. Which means that to me, I am not as bought in on that, on people automatically.
Margaret Kelsey [00:51:43]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:51:44]:
I'm like, no, actually, you have to keep proving yourself to me too.
Margaret Kelsey [00:51:47]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:51:48]:
And.
Margaret Kelsey [00:51:49]:
Yeah. And I think about that in relationships. I think about that in jobs and roles, and it should be that. Right? And then I think actually that makes that idea of partnership and love so much more magical to people willing to choose each other. And the strength of that is beautiful because without an external structure of saying this religious dogma means that you can't leave or this governmental contract or whatever like that, to me, it's like, if you have ultimate freedom and if both people understand that most relationships don't work and either person can walk away at any time, that I think makes partnership and relationships the most beautiful. When both people are free and they.
Devin Bramhall [00:52:41]:
Keep choosing each other by continuing to put in the effort equitably.
Margaret Kelsey [00:52:46]:
And I feel like that was something that I needed to heal, is that now it is completely unattractive to me if somebody doesn't want to put in the work or isn't like now, like, I used to not get the ick from that, I would be like, oh, there. I would have to do more or whatever. Now I'm like, I. This is exhausting. Get out of my life. If you're not, like, if you're not all in on this.
Devin Bramhall [00:53:14]:
Exactly what was I saying to my friend recently? I was like, because I'm like, the road to getting back in shape and everything has been long and I'm not really anywhere. And I was just like, I was lamenting something. Like, I was like, oh, I just feel ugly right now. I don't feel my best self. And I was like, you know what? I want someone to fall in love with me right Now.
Margaret Kelsey [00:53:36]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:53:37]:
I was like, I will believe them more if I'm, like, at my worst. And they're like, ooh, cute.
Margaret Kelsey [00:53:43]:
Like, yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:53:44]:
It's not like me trying so hard. It's just. I was like, that would be a moment where, if you choose me now.
Margaret Kelsey [00:53:51]:
Yeah. Well, that's the reason I didn't lose any weight for my wedding day, because I was like, I'll be damned if I look back at these pictures, or my ex would look back on the pictures and was like, oh, I wish you looked like that again. That. I know everyone wants to look their absolute best on their wedding day, but I'm like, that's just setting my future self up for failure. If I'm looking like smoking hot pod.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:11]:
I'm like, no, that's not me. I'm medium hot. Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you, as always, for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:54:19]:
We'll be back next week. And just remember, you're doing great. You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:25]:
30% of you are doing great. The rest, you got to get your together. Come on.
Margaret Kelsey [00:54:30]:
You know. You know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:33]:
You know, you know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:54:35]:
See you next week.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:36]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:54:37]:
Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:41]:
You know what? This is me, anyway. Yeah. This is how I feel inside.
Margaret Kelsey [00:54:46]:
It's like that. That movie Inside Out. That's like your brain on the inside.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:50]:
Yeah. This is what it like. Even the coat hanger.
Margaret Kelsey [00:54:52]:
The one coat hanger? Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:54:54]:
I'm like, that's surprisingly accurate.