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Interested in conversations about the nature of reality, multidimensionality, truth, being, religion, spirituality, life, love, consciousness, and language?
Wondering how to thrive in an uncertain and rapidly changing world?
Do you want to learn about things you've never experienced or heard of?
If so, we might just be for you!
Wendy Frase 0:00
Welcome to Wake-Up Call for the Soul with Bill and Wendy! Good morning, Bill.
Bill Frase 0:06
Good morning, Wendy.
Wendy Frase 0:07
Last time we talked about a new world and possibilities, and I think that nicely leads into speaking today about prophecy.
Bill Frase 0:23
Yeah. So the prophecy that I wanted to talk about today is what is commonly referred to as the prophecy of the new heart.
Wendy Frase 0:32
Sounds nice already.
Bill Frase 0:35
So before we get into this conversation, I thought, well, as we've done in so many other episodes, maybe it makes sense to convey a couple of definitions, because I think there's a wide variety of ideas about what prophecy and prophets are. So I thought, well, maybe we can start there.
Wendy Frase 0:52
Sounds good.
Bill Frase 0:53
So, for the purposes of this episode, we will define prophecy as communications of divine intent. And then we will define prophets, not surprisingly, as those who communicate divine intent.
Bill Frase 1:10
So this prophecy of the new heart actually comes from what people refer to either as the Hebrew Bible or people of other faith traditions might call it the Holy Bible. And this prophecy comes about around the 500 BCE time of history, coming from the Middle East. And the prophets who spoke this prophecy are Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and they are both prophets in their own ways associated with the 70 year captivity of the Hebrew people in Babylonia after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Ezekiel is actually a prophet from the Babylonian captivity. So, Jeremiah's activity begins before the Babylonian captivity and moves into part of it, and then Ezekiel is prophetic career is within the time of the Babylonian captivity.
Wendy Frase 2:14
I had an idea that I sort of wanted to talk about this, because we always think about what leads our conversation from the last episode, and the last episode, we talked about possibilities for this new real world, and it hit me, maybe this is a good time to speak of our, some of our favorite scriptures, that will draw some connections between what we spoke about last time.
Bill Frase 2:44
Yeah, and I think part of the idea of this episode is that we're going to be making connections. In our last conversation, I was putting forward a lot of ideas that I think you, Wendy, thought were maybe crazy or insane, that maybe perhaps likely, many of our listeners would think this is just some kind of pipe dream.
Wendy Frase 3:05
Yes.
Bill Frase 3:06
And I don't know how we got here exactly with this episode, except that I wanted to plant the seed that maybe this new world that is being birthed at this time is not some new fangled thing cooked up by Bill in his imagination, but that it actually has roots that go back thousands of years, so that we might draw some connections between things we have talked about in several of our previous episodes and in this episode. So I thought maybe by going to the past, we could maybe tie together or connect some things that might seem disconnected or seem like they're some new fangled something or other, when to me, they are not at all that I see the present moment as a continuation of things that have been in motion for a very, very, very long time.
Wendy Frase 4:09
Okay, and you wanted to talk first about Ezekiel.
Bill Frase 4:13
Yeah, even though Ezekiel comes later in the actual temporal sequence of prophets, I feel like starting with him makes more sense, and that should become clearer as we move through the conversation here.
Bill Frase 4:27
The scriptures that we're going to be reading are actually from the New International Version of the Holy Bible published by Zondervan. So, Ezekiel, 11:19-20 - "I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them. I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God."
Wendy Frase 5:00
So, when Ezekiel speaks here, is he communicating divine intentions? Are these prophecies right here in this scripture?
Bill Frase 5:11
Yeah, this is, this is one of the scriptures referring to what I am calling the prophecy of the new heart. The "I" at the very beginning is not Ezekiel, the "I" is referring to what we typically refer to as Source or Creator, what he would have referred to as his God.
Wendy Frase 5:31
So God, Creator, Source can put a new spirit, a new new heart in people, per this scripture.
Bill Frase 5:39
Indeed. And then another related scripture from Ezekiel is Ezekiel, 36, verses 25-27: "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean," [again the "I" is referring to Creator, Source.] "I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."
Wendy Frase 6:19
Okay, so this, though, we have talked about free will choice. So, how does that relate with this?
Bill Frase 6:27
That's why we're doing Jeremiah second.
Wendy Frase 6:29
Okay.
Bill Frase 6:31
So I think you know in these passages, we have this idea that somehow Creator can endow us with this new heart. What we have is the image of a heart transplant, that we currently have hearts of stone, meaning that they're hard, cold, fragile, brittle, maybe easily broken, and that this heart will be removed through some type of open heart surgery and a new beating, warm heart will be placed within our beings. And there's this mention of a new spirit, which spirit oftentimes is referring to some new energy, some new motivating or inspirational, like spirit, inspiration, inspirational factor that is going to adjust people's, in this case, behavior. I mean, if you look at what he's talking about...because here's part of the context. Part of the context is, is that the the main covenant that precedes this one that is being prophesied here. And a covenant is only an agreement, some kind of commitment or promise. And some of this will be clearer in Jeremiah. But that original covenant is called the Mosaic Covenant, meaning that it's a covenant that was communicated through the prophet Moses. And that covenant had to do with following all of the laws that God had communicated through Moses. And if you follow them, I think there's what 613 of them? You're blessed? And my understanding is, is, if you don't follow one or more of them, that then, in that way, you may be cursed. And so that covenant was one that was very much. "I'm telling you what to do people. Do it or else." And in this one, what we have is the idea that instead of having to follow these laws and decrees under our own power, we are getting the hint here with this new spirit and this new heart, that somehow people are going to be able to do this, to follow these laws, not break them in some new or different way that we don't understand, and that definitely, I think Ezekiel did not understand.
Wendy Frase 9:11
Yeah, and I think that we don't always look for this new spirit, because I know for myself, I often see the Old Testament as a very angry God, Source punishing as just you said, do it or else, or you're in big trouble. So that is interesting that these ideas of a new spirit, a new heart are sprinkled throughout the Old Testament, scripture.
Bill Frase 9:41
Yeah. And in this passage too, I mean, we have this very interesting idea of the undivided heart, which I find really interesting because one of the things that has been a theme throughout this podcast is that unity, wholeness is more real and true than separation and division. And literally, in this version, the word is undivided. There's this sense of a heart being divided, that there is something where it is not whole in its functioning. And so I find it interesting that connection between what we've been talking about, this theme of wholeness as opposed to separation, of unity, instead of division, being expressed to me in this prophetic pronouncement.
Bill Frase 10:28
Another thing to mention is that "heart" in Hebrew means something a bit different than it does for us today. He's not talking about the physical beating heart of a human being, so much as he's talking about that aspect of being that motivates people, that is the wellspring of way of being and thought and feeling and action. So, it's this very holistic idea. The word is Lev or Leb in Hebrew for heart and so, just so you know, this isn't some sentimental, sappy Valentine's Day thing about a heart. He's talking about that aspect that he considers to be the core motivating aspect of a human being. While today, in our own very limited understanding and perception, we tend to think of the mind as being the seat of our motivation.
Wendy Frase 11:27
Is there anything else you want to say about Ezekiel?
Bill Frase 11:30
I think we can move on to Jeremiah here, where we really get into some juiciness, as I like to say.
Bill Frase 11:38
I thought that I would start with this very brief passage from Jeremiah 31:3, and again, the "I"s are referring to Source, Divinity. "I have loved you with an everlasting love. I have drawn you with unfailing kindness." And so for me, this hearkens to our earlier episode where we talked about the two different kinds of love, and here I see the description of a love that Jeremiah is referring to that is very different from what we refer to as natural love, "Everlasting Love," so something that, it lasts forever because it has no beginning, therefore it has no end. And even these words, this parallelism that's so beautiful in Jewish poetry, "I have drawn you with unfailing kindness," again, unfailing that there has never been a withdrawal of this Love. There has never been a lack of it available to people, that it has always been there, even as people have persistently and consistently refused to accept it.
Wendy Frase 12:47
That idea of everlasting love here in Jeremiah is very contradicting to a Source that is punishing, that is angry, that is killing people. I wish we had more of this in the scripture. I love you with an everlasting love.
Bill Frase 13:11
We haven't really talked about this, but when you look at these scriptures, what you're seeing is a combination of people imposing their own ideas about who divinity is and should be. And in some cases, as I would claim in these passages that we're talking about certain individuals, prophets perceived more clearly the divine intent that it is not to kill or to destroy or to promise victory in battle over others, that divinity is Unconditional Love. And so, like any other human creation, human scriptures are a mixed bag.
Wendy Frase 13:55
And the world is a mixed bag too, because we really have to look for, even in this world, those individuals who are practicing and showing this Unconditional Love.
Bill Frase 14:07
Part of the reason why we're having this conversation is that I am, in my own way, suggesting that the new world that is being born is coming from a much longer time frame than most people today appreciate.
Wendy Frase 14:27
The real world.
Bill Frase 14:27
The real world that's being born out of the...
Wendy Frase 14:31
Versus the fabricated world.
Bill Frase 14:33
Yep.
Wendy Frase 14:34
And Jeremiah, 31 starts that way in verse 31 "the days are coming, declares the Lord when Iwill make a new covenant."
Bill Frase 14:42
And so here we have this expression of divine intent in the five hundreds. BCE.
Wendy Frase 14:48
Well, but this covenant has always been there, correct? But Jeremiah recognizes it. "The days are coming when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant."
Bill Frase 15:10
All right, so Wendy, you mentioned how this prophecy, this New Covenant, has been in the background all along.
Wendy Frase 15:19
Yes.
Bill Frase 15:20
But now we have someone recognizing it, someone expressing divine intent, in this case, Jeremiah. And that's absolutely true. So when I said that this has been in the works for a very, very, very long time, it's even very much longer than most people can believe or conceive how long this has been in the works. You're right. This goes back way before Jeremiah. It's not like Source decided five minutes before Jeremiah found out this has been available for a very long time, but again, until human beings are at a particular stage of development, consciousness or perception, these things, even though they are completely real, are as if they do not exist. Which is another idea that has been expressed throughout this podcast up to this point, that I'm, in my own way, seeking to point people toward things that exist that most people don't even believe or think are real.
Wendy Frase 16:26
I understand that because you can't break through to someone unless they're ready. People can't make change in their own life unless they're ready. They must choose it. They must be in a place, whether it be their heart, their mind, their soul, to progress, to move forward with a new option.
Bill Frase 16:46
Right. So, I'm going to continue with Jeremiah 31:33 "This is the covenant," [again, the agreement or promise] "I will make with the people of Israel. I will put my law in their minds, and I will write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me from the least of them to the greatest."
Wendy Frase 17:17
And I like that, because I think we think that know the Lord means a mental, mind, know the Lord. But when you were reading that, I felt like knowing the Lord comes from the soul, the heart, that deeper place.
Bill Frase 17:44
Yeah, Absolutely. All right. And so now we get to what, to me, is particularly juicy in this Jeremiah passage. What does this New Covenant involve? What is the human contribution to this. Because again, in the Mosaic Covenant, we get 613 laws: follow them, blessed, break, cursed. And so, in Jeremiah, 24:7, we have the prophet saying this, "I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart." And so we have this idea planted here, but I wanted to hand things over to you, Wendy, now for this section that you particularly enjoy from Jeremiah that gets more into how this covenant is fulfilled.
Wendy Frase 18:34
The part you just read suggests that nothing will be forced on anyone, that they will return with all their heart, and receive a heart that really knows Source and Divinity. So then we move on to what, as you said, Bill, I really like, Jeremiah, 29: 11-14, "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you and will bring you back from captivity." I mean, I love that, because it really talks about an individual seeking Source and finding Source when they find Source with their whole heart, and that's the hope in the future and the transformation I feel that you speak about.
Bill Frase 19:53
What we have here is...formula is probably a strong word for it, but this is very clear, and this is why I wanted to start with Ezekiel, because Ezekiel is talking about a possibility. But here we have Jeremiah making things to me much clearer, that when we seek Source, that Source responds. And so this New Covenant, as we've been calling it, this prophecy of the new heart is about individual human beings saying, "Oh, I want what Source desires to give to me, and therefore I am going to ask for it." He says, he uses the word pray, which, for me, prayers are not verbal formulas. They are deep expressions from our souls to Source for whatever it is we most deeply desire and in seeking that, we experience in what is described in the next couple of verses as being brought back from captivity, which, of course, is referring to the Babylonian captivity. But Babylonian captivity is a metaphor for our own imprisonment within our minds.
Wendy Frase 21:10
Right, and we are all, in a way, captives in this fabricated world that we have been speaking about. And this passage really does resonate with me. So that is helpful, Bill, all your backstory of Ezekiel and Jeremiah. But even without that, I really feel that Source is first of all giving us a choice, an option. It's free will, and once we make that choice, we want that, we desire, that that Love, that Unconditional Love, into our hearts, to allow us to have a new heart, be transformed. And when we come and pray and call and have this desire, we will get a new heart. And the world can get a new heart little by little, and hopefully that'll transform the world. And that's what we were talking about, going from a fabricated world to the real world, a vision that we have hope.
Bill Frase 22:17
You know, when I think about what he describes in here, coming to Source with your whole heart - seeking, longing, yearning, praying. This practice that I've described in a prior episode is very reflective of what is being described here by Jeremiah. And I want to go back to one of the things. Well, it was the first scripture passage I mentioned in light of Jeremiah, and it's Jeremiah 31:3. "I have loved you with an everlasting love. I have drawn you with unfailing kindness." And so, that which I seek is the Source's Essence of Unconditional Love. And I feel like Jeremiah and even, Ezekiel, they have the pieces here, but they haven't put them all together yet. It's there, but it's kind of hidden in plain sight sort of a thing, until or unless you realize, oh, that Source has this Love Source desires to give to people that if we ask for it, we can receive it and undergo a transformative process that seems very much like the removal of a heart of stone and its transplantation with a new heart of flesh, a new heart full of love and light and warmth and softness.
Bill Frase 23:37
Yeah, and so I wanted to have this conversation because, you know, I think so many of us feel that we are experiencing so much separation, whether it's between parts and aspects of ourselves, separation from other people, separation from community, separation from Source, and even separation from the past, that somehow this time today is discontinuous, meaning that it is somehow broken off from the ancient history of humanity and by ancient history I'm actually talking about going way back before Jeremiah, but at least with Jeremiah in the past 2500 years or so, that we have something that was expressed at that time as divine intent that is carrying through like a through line throughout all of these times and years. This is an opportunity for us to see our history not as some kind of separate moment, but that it is a continuation of a process that has been going on for a very long time, and that, unlike some covenants that have been made, agreements that have been communicated between divinity and humanity, this one makes it very clear that it must be desired, that individual human beings must say, "I desire to participate in the fulfillment of this prophecy. I desire to experience the benefits of participation in this covenant, this promise." And so, free will, choice here is truly honored, like Ezekiel makes it sound like, well, maybe this is just going to happen without people choosing it, like you were saying, Wendy, but here we have it very clear in Jeremiah that, no, people have to choose it. If they choose it, they can experience it. If they don't, they won't.
Wendy Frase 25:37
Yes, and I wanted to have this conversation. I agree too, because in Episode Seven, we talked more about this fabricated world, and are we living in a simulation? And that really seemed like a big downer. And then we spoke in the last episode, eight, what kind of world is possible? And yeah, that's great, but how do we get there? And so I like that we brought this back to this prophecy that is very, very old. But in this prophecy, it does give you some action, because the action is the desire.
Bill Frase 26:16
Yeah. I mean, this prophecy seems pretty clear to me that coming with your whole heart, the heart, the Lev, or Leb in Hebrew, again, is the central motivating aspect of a human being. And so it is the seat of desire. It is the seat of action, of thought and feeling. And so I hear Jeremiah very clearly saying, if you come to Divinity with that heartfelt yearning, desire, what we sometimes in my world, call the wholeness of our beings, that divinity responds that that which is available can be received and integrated into our beings, as we have talked about in previous episodes. And so it's not a one time thing. I mean, it can be a one time thing. Choice is being honored here, but what I'm proposing is that this doesn't have to be a one time event, that it has the potential to become a person's practice so that they can undergo...instead of this image of a heart transplant, it's more like stem cell transplant, where we receive, every time we engage in this practice, a few new stem cells that are going to then replace our aspects that are divided, our aspects that are not in complete union and harmony. And so, we get this gradual replacement or displacement of spiritual heart stem cells that we can gradually over time, get a whole new heart. And so, of course, Ezekiel and Jeremiah had no understanding of stem cells. We now have a metaphor in stem cells, where every time I engage in my practice, I get a few new stem cells that are...they know where to go. They go to my heart, and they're like, "Hey guys, I'm here to take over. You're good to go. Okay?" And then I get more and more of those stem cells until I get this new heart that is not constrained or confined by the limits of nature.
Wendy Frase 28:31
And I love that idea of coming with your whole heart, because it does not involve the mind. It does not involve words, it does not involve beliefs. It does not involve being a part of this religion or that religion or this community. So, it really is coming with your whole heart, and every human being can do that, whether they realize it or not.
Bill Frase 29:02
That's why we're doing this episode, because I would like for more people to realize that this is possible and that it is not...we are not talking about religion here. We are talking about true spirituality here, that people can make these choices in their relationship with the Ultimate, with Divinity for themselves, and they can test this for themselves. They don't have to rely on anybody else's opinion. They can take an experimental approach, whatever they want to do, that's available to them. This episode is another invitation for listeners to consider the possibility that we can engage in an individual practice between ourselves and the Ultimate for the transformation of our individual lives in ways that help to bring about a whole new world, a whole new humanity, a whole new reality that is not limited by human ideas, beliefs, limitations, illusions.
Wendy Frase 30:16
That's wonderful, Bill, and I just want to read once again, from Jeremiah, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."
Wendy Frase 30:26
So it's been great talking to you today, Bill, and I look forward to our next conversation. Until next time.
Bill Frase 30:34
Until next time.
Bill Frase 30:36
Thank you so much for listening to Wake-Up Call for the Soul. With Bill and Wendy, we hope you'll join us next time.