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Dave Gerhardt (Founder of Exit Five, former CMO) and guests help you grow your career in B2B marketing. Episodes include conversations with CMOs, marketing leaders, and subject matter experts across all aspects of modern B2B marketing: planning, strategy, operations, ABM, demand gen., product marketing, brand, content, social media, and more. Join 4,400+ members in our private community at exitfive.com.
Matt Carnevale [00:00:08]:
So I'm here with Tas. What is this episode? Is your fourth episode you've done with us?
Tas Bober [00:00:21]:
Fourth episode. Am I the champ? Is this the. These all the competitions that I care about winning because I'm ill? But, yeah, yeah. Fourth. Has anyone been on four times?
Matt Carnevale [00:00:31]:
No. I mean, David know better than me, but I don't think so. From what I know, I think you might be in the lead right now. We should create a leaderboard.
Tas Bober [00:00:39]:
Yes. Please do that. As long as I'm first, I'm fist pumping for anybody who can't see me.
Matt Carnevale [00:00:45]:
There you go.
Tas Bober [00:00:46]:
And this is why Dave continuously tells me and has to remind me that, ma'am, ma'am, this is my show.
Matt Carnevale [00:00:54]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:00:55]:
Not yours. So I forget sometimes.
Matt Carnevale [00:00:58]:
Now you're infiltrating through another channel. Now you got Matt. You got Matt.
Tas Bober [00:01:03]:
I got Matt. I'm, like, coming in through all the side doors. Cause Dave wants to kick me out constantly, so I'm like, exactly. Okay, I'm just gonna befriend Matt and Daniel. I just was on the phone with Danielle for, like, 40 minutes before I talk to you.
Matt Carnevale [00:01:16]:
Cool. Oh, yeah. You're taking part of the roast, right?
Tas Bober [00:01:19]:
Yes. And so we're doing, like, by time this comes out, I'm sure. Well, I don't know how quickly you work, but probably, yeah, by time this comes out, I'm pretty sure that promo would already be out. But we're doing this meta promotion of me roasting the landing page she created for the roast.
Matt Carnevale [00:01:37]:
Nice. That's fantastic. That's such good.
Tas Bober [00:01:40]:
Yeah.
Matt Carnevale [00:01:41]:
Okay, cool. Either way, though. Awesome, awesome, cool, cool. Okay, so on that topic, so tearing down landing pages, wanted to have you on again for the fourth time. I'll keep reiterating that because recently in the community, we did a landing page tear down. So members of the Exit Five community, our communities in circle, would send a link to their landing page and task the landing page. Queen would go and tear it down. So let's talk about kind of, you know, some of the high level learnings.
Matt Carnevale [00:02:14]:
First off, how many pages did get submitted?
Tas Bober [00:02:17]:
I think it was 37.
Matt Carnevale [00:02:20]:
Okay. Okay.
Tas Bober [00:02:20]:
So, yeah, so get them out a good amount, a good sample size. And I was like, oh, 37. Like, whatever. I'll just spend, like, five or six minutes per audit, and then I'll be fine. But then I messaged you, and I'm like, matt, I'm drowning in audits right now. And you're like, well, I've looked at some of them. You don't have to invest 20 minutes for audit. Have you tried having more boundaries? The answer is no.
Matt Carnevale [00:02:48]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:02:48]:
So, I don't know. I just get so into it and I'm like, well, you know what? If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it and give people something tangible that they can actually action on. Because when I was in house, I would get a lot of feedback. Like, you need to be more clear in your messaging. Well, no one tells me what to make it clearer with, but anyway, so I took my time, 20 minutes. I spent a total of 12 hours and 49 minutes. I sent you that screenshot as well.
Matt Carnevale [00:03:19]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:03:19]:
Which roughly translates to like, $18,000 worth of free work. Dave, if you're listening. If you're listening. Okay.
Matt Carnevale [00:03:28]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:03:29]:
And you think about kicking me out just now.
Matt Carnevale [00:03:31]:
What? You give even Exit Five members if you're listening? I mean, where else, like, no one else in no other community would someone like you be willing to give that much value away for free, at least? I don't think so. You correct me if I'm wrong, but.
Tas Bober [00:03:44]:
No, I actually told you, too. I was like, you guys are probably the only ones I would consider doing as much free work as I can. Most people will be shocked to find out that you guys don't pay me or sponsor me for anything. This is just like what happens when someone is a super fan. Exit five groupie. Is that a thing? Anyway, so, no. So I do. This is the only community.
Tas Bober [00:04:09]:
And the reason, too is just like, I also know a lot of people in the community, been in it far longer than I've been solo and even doing the LinkedIn thing. And so I've just known a lot of people in there. It was also one of the only communities where, like, people aren't selling to each other and things like that. It's always been like a genuinely helpful thing. And back when I was in house and I was like a wee young little marketer, I used to lean on the community a lot of for, like, templates and things that I wanted to grow. And this was like, way before it was, you know, in circle and fancy and stuff. So that's why I'm like, no, we got to keep continuing to do that because it was so helpful for me, and I want to keep doing that for other people as well. I'm part of actually some other communities, and they either really silent or, you know, it's just quiet or.
Tas Bober [00:05:03]:
Or then it just turns into a sales pitch promo fest or, like, interact with my LinkedIn content fest and I'm like, wow, okay. No, not what I want to do. Or they're super expensive, too.
Matt Carnevale [00:05:14]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:05:14]:
You know?
Matt Carnevale [00:05:15]:
Yep, totally.
Tas Bober [00:05:16]:
Anyway, not an ad for exa five, but you may use it as one.
Matt Carnevale [00:05:21]:
Amazing. Cool. I love it. Thank you. Appreciate that. Let's get into the meat. Let's get the people what they want. How do you want to do this? You want to do, like, you have, like, 510 things.
Matt Carnevale [00:05:31]:
Like, you have, like, a number list. Like, how do you. How do you want to go through this?
Tas Bober [00:05:34]:
Yeah, I kind of divided them into kind of buckets and patterns that I saw.
Matt Carnevale [00:05:39]:
Okay.
Tas Bober [00:05:39]:
So there are, like, a couple of concepts that we should talk about before when it comes to landing pages, and that is content is king. Right. But design and experience is queen. I mean, there's just no doubt about that. It's like, you know, if you walk into a store and then the store is a mess, they might have good product, but you're so focused on the mess that you're not paying attention to the product. Right?
Matt Carnevale [00:06:05]:
Yep.
Tas Bober [00:06:06]:
And so you want to do the same thing with your landing pages where, yes, I've said this before, you could have, like, a Google Doc, and it would just have the right kind of information and someone would be happy with that. But you still want to kind of put your, like, Sunday clothes on or whatever. You know, you want to dress your best. And I think now in 2024, you kind of don't have an excuse not to have, like, just a nice one page website. I mean, you can go to, like, Cardinal and just build one for like $15 or free, actually. So it's almost like there's no excuse for that. So there were a couple of them where I'm like, hmm, you know, it's giving 1995 vibes and they knew it. So is that just.
Matt Carnevale [00:06:49]:
Sorry, not. Not interrupt, but is that just when the design is. Looks like it's a 1990s, early two thousands webpage, is that just they're using the wrong editor or designer? Is that the main issue there?
Tas Bober [00:07:00]:
Sometimes it's like, legacy sites, especially. I call them, like, old b two B, where, you know, if you think about a b two B SaaS website, you can almost picture it in your head because, like, all the SaaS websites have this vibe, right?
Matt Carnevale [00:07:11]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:07:11]:
But then some of the traditional b two B, where it's like, services and things like that, I understand because I used to work for them. So I know it's really hard, and it's easy for me to say, hey, go change your design up. They're like, yeah, we're a 20,000 person company, and for us to get an approval on a website project is like a two year long process. So they just use these like old legacy tools and themes and designs. A marketer doesn't really have full control over that. So I get it. But this is your signal to start that two year process now, because you're probably losing some people to it who might care about those things.
Matt Carnevale [00:07:47]:
Yeah. Okay.
Tas Bober [00:07:48]:
Right. So design is queen for sure. And then from a technical standpoint, some of those pages took forever to load. So I'm sitting there and I'm going, okay. I'm sitting here and waiting for this because this is my job. At this point in time, a user may think that it's erroring out. Maybe something's wrong with their Internet, and if they find out it's you, they're just frustrated that that's a situation that's even happening. And it doesn't matter then what your design is, it doesn't matter what your copy is.
Tas Bober [00:08:18]:
If the page doesn't load, you are screwed. Right? I mean, it doesn't do anything. It's your storefront to your entire site. So when I ran my audits, almost for all the sites, I ran, just like a lighthouse test. So you can go to just like, just look up lighthouse, plug in your website. You can see things like how quickly your site loads SEO stuff, how you rank there. So it pulls up a scoring matrix based on Google's core web vitals, which essentially outlines the performance of your website and how likely people are to find you via search. Obviously, we're talking about landing pages, so they shouldn't necessarily find you via search.
Tas Bober [00:08:57]:
But for a general website, that's something that you should do. I did run the Exit Five website earlier because Dave commented on one of my. He's like, can you roast the Exit Five one? And I did. So I went through the whole website. I shared some feedback with Danielle earlier.
Matt Carnevale [00:09:12]:
Nice.
Tas Bober [00:09:13]:
But in general, performance is fine. And I feel like webflow sites tend to just already have some of that built in. So that's nice.
Matt Carnevale [00:09:19]:
Yeah. So this lighthouse tool, just super quick, is that like lighthouse.com or. What's, what's that? How'd someone find it?
Tas Bober [00:09:25]:
I can tell you, you can just google it. It's a. Obviously, if you use a chrome browser, it's actually in your chrome browser, you can just right click inspect and then there's a tab that says Lighthouse and you can run it. But if you don't, you can just go to like, lighthouse test and then there's quite a few things. And then there's a chrome extension for developers. There's pagespeed insights, web dev. You can run it in there. It'll do the same thing for you.
Matt Carnevale [00:09:52]:
Okay.
Tas Bober [00:09:52]:
So you can share that link if you want later. But that's something where you can just get, like, is my website functioning? Are the foundations set? And then I can take it to the next step in terms of, like, marketing material, right?
Matt Carnevale [00:10:06]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:10:06]:
Okay, cool. The other piece of, and I said this in almost every audit, is that there is an ADA compliance component. So AdA is the disabilities act. I know you're in Canada, so it's like, I don't know.
Matt Carnevale [00:10:20]:
Yeah, yeah.
Tas Bober [00:10:21]:
I'm sure you have your own version of it. It's probably like the CDA or something, but. But essentially about 25% of the Internet users have some kind of impairment that prevents them from fully reading a website or seeing things digitally. 25% is a pretty big number. I think the ADA actually has this on their website, so don't quote me on the exact number, but I just remember seeing it and I was like, ah, that's a huge amount of people. But I still didn't care about it until I was issued a fine for one of the websites when I was heading up digital and website. Yeah. At a company.
Matt Carnevale [00:11:00]:
Whoa.
Tas Bober [00:11:01]:
And it was solely based on the fact that my contrast wasn't strong enough on the site.
Matt Carnevale [00:11:07]:
Wow.
Tas Bober [00:11:08]:
We had black text on red background and they were like, no. And so my head of legal was like, hey, we got issued this by the ADA. Do you know anything about this? I'm like, well, I know about web accessibility requirements, but I thought they were, like, guidelines. I didn't know I could get fined for them. So that was a mistake that since then I've taken very seriously and always something that I look for because people aren't thinking about it. So we're always like, hiring a web dev agency or web design agency, and.
Matt Carnevale [00:11:37]:
We'Re like, wow, we love this.
Tas Bober [00:11:39]:
It's so flashy, it's so great. And then it's like, womp, womp. So I actually did run the Exit Five website through an accessibility tracker, and it says it's not compliant. Yeah. So I told Danielle about that as well. So she's going to get something taken off. Now. Not everything needs to be paid attention to, so I would focus on, like, the visual elements first.
Tas Bober [00:12:02]:
So contrast colors are important. So if you have, like, three or four primary colors, what you want to do is just Google, like a website contrast checker. There's a bunch of tools. You can use the first one on there and then you can copy the colors in there and say, this is my background color, this is my text color. And it'll give you the ratio of your contrast. You want to shoot for a four, like a four and a half to five to one ratio. So you have to have like four to five points of contrast compared to your background.
Matt Carnevale [00:12:36]:
Okay, cool. Good tip.
Tas Bober [00:12:38]:
So that's something that I was looking at, just making sure that the texts were large enough to read and things like that. So that's like super important. So there's a whole checklist for it. I won't get into it here, but just go through it. And the two most important components are visually how it appears so people can read it, and then can you navigate the site through a keyboard? So that's always something to always consider. Okay, that's more like general website advice. So we'll go into the actual landing page stuff.
Matt Carnevale [00:13:05]:
So one of the things I wanted to hit on. Sorry, before you continue for the loading time. Yeah, I know, for design, we talked about. Okay, you know, a lot of the time comes down to what you're using to build the landing page.
Tas Bober [00:13:16]:
Yeah.
Matt Carnevale [00:13:17]:
Ada compliance, you talked about the contrast colors and that being an easy, easier, low hanging fruit and how to check that. Yeah, the loading time. I know we talked about how to know if it's not loading properly. But are you going to get into maybe some of the fixes or what people can do if it's not loading?
Tas Bober [00:13:32]:
Yeah, I can. So the benchmark that you want to go for is 3 seconds or less. So anything more than 3 seconds and people are impatient, they're going to probably bounce. But it's also an indication that there's some kind of technical weight or burden on your site. The culprits are pretty common. The common ones are like overuse of scripts. So if you're a site that has a ton of tools on there, you have your LinkedIn ads, you have a bunch of plugins and extensions. WordPress is notorious for this because you can keep adding plugins.
Tas Bober [00:14:06]:
All of these things add to that technical weight of the site and what ends up happening is it slows it down. So culprits are scripts, another culprit are images. So when you have big heroes, big flashy images, and you don't resize to scale or you don't compress them before you put them up, things like that can really just slow it down. But the good news is they're easy fixes so something like your images, instead of going and manually going through your entire site and trying to fix images, go to your web dev team, talk to them about the CDN settings, your content delivery network that comes with your hosting package. They can actually auto compress or automatically do it into next gen formats. So like a webp format. And they can do it across all the images on your site and it'll automatically take, it'll that shaves off like, I've seen seven to 8 seconds sometimes.
Matt Carnevale [00:14:58]:
Oh, sure.
Tas Bober [00:14:59]:
Insane. If it's a bigger site, they obviously have a lot of images. The other thing is, with the scripts, you may not need all of them right away. Some scripts are important for your site to load. Like, I know this is really in the weeds, guys, but it'll help you, trust me. But some scripts need to run in order for your site to run. Those are your necessary ones. Also, some things like analytics and things like that need to run right away, or things that are showing up for the functionality of your site, but things like your LinkedIn ads, analytics, things that don't really need it, you can lazy load them.
Tas Bober [00:15:34]:
So ask your web dev team to lazy load our scripts and help compress our images. And that's already going to shave down a ton of time when you do that lighthouse test. The first part is performance and it'll actually give you a whole list of things that you can do to shave down time. And you can just copy and paste and send it to your dev team. If you're like, I don't even care about the technical stuff, just go fix it.
Matt Carnevale [00:15:55]:
Awesome. I love that. That's great advice. Okay. Yeah, perfect.
Tas Bober [00:15:57]:
Amazing. Okay, landing pages. Number one thing, people are confusing landing pages and homepages. I talk about this all the time. It was actually one of the posts that I did right at the beginning when I niched down into landing pages and it blew up. Like people went nuts because so many people confused them homepages or general web pages with landing pages. So there were a few people in, there was like, here's my landing page. I'm like, up, that's your homepage.
Tas Bober [00:16:25]:
And they're sending all their paid ads and traffic to the homepage. And the reason why I ask you to have two separate pages is because of the integrity of the feedback that you're going to get back. So if you have your homepage, everyone and your brother is coming to that homepage, right? Someone who's curious about you, press, potential employees, investors, existing customers, all of those things. When you have a paid landing page that's kind of standalone. What ends up happening is you control the lever of who you're letting in, right? So you control through paid ads, you can say, I want B2B marketers only who are not members, right? You can add that exclusion to come and have access to this website, this one page, and then you can see how they, your prospective customers are interacting on that page and then make optimizations based on those signals rather than signals from everybody, which can just like dilute the data. So please have a separate landing page if you're running paid, because you're just wasting money otherwise, amongst other things. So you want to create like kind of a testing sandbox environment to test your messaging. You have a lot more autonomy.
Tas Bober [00:17:39]:
You don't have to run it through a bunch of people for approvals. You could literally just mess around with it, get some data points, take it back, and it can help inform your main website and the messaging that goes on there as well without having to run through the chain.
Matt Carnevale [00:17:53]:
Okay, if somebody just, let's say, okay, someone's listening to this and they've been using their homepage, is it adequate for them to just duplicate the homepage and run the exact same thing? Just maybe change like the slug or something so it's differentiated. Is that enough? I'm assuming there's some more things you'd like people to do, but would that be enough for someone?
Tas Bober [00:18:15]:
MVP. Sure. Clone the homepage as your primary offer page. I would encourage you to make some kind of change. So with a landing page versus a homepage, a homepage is going to have a lot of links to other pages on your site. With the landing page, you don't want that. So if you clone the homepage or clone a product page, you're going to remove all those points of distraction and keep the message really focused and have them focused on one sole decision that they need to make, hopefully by the end of it. And if they don't, that's okay.
Tas Bober [00:18:46]:
But you're trying to focus the experience. So if you think about it like this, your homepage is more of a choose your own adventure. Your landing page is the destination right at the end of the journey. So that's kind of what we're looking at. And that's why I say just do a separate page. But your mvp, you can absolutely clone and make some changes from there as part of like the evolution and iteration from what's on your page right now.
Matt Carnevale [00:19:11]:
Cool. Okay, makes sense.
Tas Bober [00:19:13]:
Okay, good. Feeling good. This is like a workout.
Matt Carnevale [00:19:17]:
This is awesome.
Tas Bober [00:19:17]:
Okay.
Matt Carnevale [00:19:18]:
Great. I'm learning so much.
Tas Bober [00:19:19]:
Amazing. Okay, so that's the pieces. We got to do a landing page. Now, when you get on the landing pages, we talked about the experience part and being really focused. So I saw a lot of this, which is they would have a focus CTA throughout the whole page. Right. And so it'll be like, you know, book a meeting, talk to an expert, talk to us, contact us, chat with us. And they all going to the same place, but they all have different vernacular and the CTA.
Tas Bober [00:19:46]:
But what happens here, and I told Danielle this earlier, what happens with that is even though it's going to the same place and you're thinking in your mind, I'm going to call it different things, because if they don't respond to this, they're going to respond to something else. Maybe they want to talk to an expert over, like, get a demo. Right. But the problem is, as humans, we face about 10,000 decisions a day. We have decision fatigue, right?
Matt Carnevale [00:20:12]:
Yep.
Tas Bober [00:20:12]:
Throughout the entire day. When they come to your website and you're making them have another set of decisions to make between seven CTA's that are all going to the same place, but they all say different things. It makes it feel like in their minds that they're all going to go to different places and they're going to miss out on something. Oh, okay. What's. Should I get a demo? Should I talk to an expert? Will I not talk to an expert if I get a demo? Do I just get a demo directly? So you're starting to create this, like, wheel of anxiety in them that they're going to miss out on something if they don't click on the right CTA, even though they all go to the same place. Right. Pick one, test it for a couple of weeks, then you can try a different variation of it, see if that one works better.
Tas Bober [00:20:55]:
But don't confuse them. If you confuse, you will lose them. Confuse you. Lose. Right.
Matt Carnevale [00:21:01]:
Confuse you. Lose. Love it. Okay. Awesome. And with those, you know, I don't want to get too much into, like, the best words to use, but is the general thinking, I'm going to pick the CTA language that just matches the ad the best. Is that kind of how you choose?
Tas Bober [00:21:18]:
You can. The biggest thing is, yes. You want to make sure that you're delivering on the promise of the ADHD. So that's super important. So if your ad says get a demo, they come to the page, they don't get a demo. Like, that's crappy. It's, you know.
Matt Carnevale [00:21:31]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:21:31]:
But I told Danielle this earlier, too, which is specificity is your friend. When you have a CTA that's like, learn more. Learn more about what? Right. Like, schedule a meeting. Okay. Schedule a meeting to do what? So you want to be specific in something. So if you have, like, the next button is, you know, talk to an expert, you're going to have to set the expectations for what that. What that entails.
Tas Bober [00:22:00]:
So talk to an expert means I'm going to click this button, I'm going to sign up or get taken to a calendar invite, and I'm actually going to talk to an expert. Right. If I get a demo, am I going to get a demo? If I book a meeting, am I going to get a meeting? So I wouldn't get so caught up in the vernacular, I would just say, what am I promising them? And does this, like, speak the truth? Right.
Matt Carnevale [00:22:21]:
Okay.
Tas Bober [00:22:21]:
No deceptive patterns. None of that.
Matt Carnevale [00:22:24]:
Easy.
Tas Bober [00:22:24]:
Very easy. So don't overthink it. Just be straightforward.
Matt Carnevale [00:22:27]:
Love it.
Tas Bober [00:22:28]:
And specific. Okay, cool. No surprise here. About 95% of them were just buzzword stuffed. I mean, seamless AI led, revolutionize driving revenue. Everything drove revenue. If I bought everything from those 37 landing pages, I'll be the richest person on earth. It would be freaking Bill Gates or whatever.
Tas Bober [00:22:56]:
Is he the richest person? I don't even know.
Matt Carnevale [00:22:57]:
I don't even know anymore.
Tas Bober [00:22:58]:
Yeah, I don't know anymore.
Matt Carnevale [00:23:00]:
You'd be supercharged, seamless, and full of revenue.
Tas Bober [00:23:04]:
I would just be fluid, like an atom. Yeah. Which is so funny, because I always ask people, I'm like, would you ever sit in a one on one conversation, like a sales rep and a person be like, have you ever thought about revolutionizing your tech stack? You would never say that. That would be embarrassing to say.
Matt Carnevale [00:23:24]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:23:24]:
We say it so freely and openly, and it's like, okay. But that was most of the things. So I went through a lot of audits. I'm like, buzzword. Don't know no buzzword. No buzzword. So I think there were, like, only one or two. I was like, hey, your copy is actually really clear.
Tas Bober [00:23:39]:
And all my feedback is around, like, just user experience and layout, you know, which was amazing. That was like, you know, but most of it, it was so much on copy, very minimally on design and experience.
Matt Carnevale [00:23:53]:
Got it.
Tas Bober [00:23:53]:
So some of the things that I wrote here, which was clarity and simplicity. One thing that I do is I never write below an 8th grade level. Whether you're a rocket scientist or whether you're, like, a marketer, a server, whatever. Right? I think, like the statistic. I wrote this yesterday on a comment somewhere, but at least in the US, 36 million Americans don't read above an 8th grade level. And now educated Americans might read at a higher level, but we don't want to. Like, it's this thing where it's like, that's why TikTok and reels and things like that blow up is because it's casual language, it's quick, and they're going to skim content before they decide to invest in reading it. And you have to make sure that you present it in a way that doesn't make you look smart, but makes it so they can consume it.
Tas Bober [00:24:46]:
Right? Those are the LinkedIn posts that do really well, not the ones that are like, the minute I hit see more and I'm like, it's like a chore to read this whole thing. I didn't come here to read a novel.
Matt Carnevale [00:24:56]:
Exactly.
Tas Bober [00:24:56]:
So you want to write in a way that people consume your information and so clarity. Nothing bigger than 8th grade. Eleven. And I tell you, if you do that, all the buzzwords go away.
Matt Carnevale [00:25:08]:
Right? That makes sense.
Tas Bober [00:25:10]:
They all go away.
Matt Carnevale [00:25:10]:
Yeah. 8th graders don't say supercharged and they don't say seamless.
Tas Bober [00:25:13]:
No. Unless they're talking about, like, the boys or something, you know? Have you watched the boys? Terrible. No, I shouldn't be promoting that show here.
Matt Carnevale [00:25:20]:
Okay.
Tas Bober [00:25:21]:
It's very non PC show, but it's about superheroes, so.
Matt Carnevale [00:25:23]:
Got it.
Tas Bober [00:25:24]:
Okay. So a lot of jargon, a lot of buzzwords. Right? And then the other piece is there was a lot of feature dumping, which is also another very common, common thing for especially B. Two B SaaS. Like, I get it from a services standpoint, and we'll talk about the services side of the house, too, but from the product type side, there's just so much feature dumping. And I get it because I was in house and we have, like, a new exciting feature, and we want to talk about that feature, but then we have 1500 other features. So we just talk about all the features and then we explain the features. It's like, okay, but that is overwhelming to someone.
Tas Bober [00:26:07]:
Right? What if you walked into, like, an ice cream shop and they just listed all the flavors for you? You're saying they're like, I didn't even ask for this. But, yeah, I just want. I wanted some ice cream. I'm feeling like something sweet or fruity and they can say, oh, you want fruit? Okay, we got berry, we got strawberry. Da da da da da. Right? They can list or, hey, I'm more of a peanut butter person. Here are all the ones that are peanut butter, right? So we haven't level set it all. We're just sitting here and going, oh, you want ice cream? We got ice cream.
Tas Bober [00:26:38]:
We actually have 1500 flavors and we're going to list them all out to you right now. Please don't interrupt us. Okay. Standing there for 30 minutes while they listen.
Matt Carnevale [00:26:47]:
All right, I'm going to go.
Tas Bober [00:26:50]:
Yeah, I'm going to go down the street. Okay.
Matt Carnevale [00:26:52]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:26:53]:
So that's exactly what happens. I get overwhelmed, they leave. Right. So you have to talk about features in the context of like a story, almost what it enables the buyer to do. So the same way I told you where we're going to bundle them by like a flavor profile, you're going to bundle some of those features by the themes of what you enable them to do. So, you know, instead of saying like calendly has like group scheduling, webinar scheduling, dual hosting, like, all of that sounds really great, but you're like, okay, put it in context for me. And so a paragraph for calendly might sound something like, as a marketer, you are hosting events that likely have more than one person on there. Using our group event scheduling, webinar functionality and dual hosting capabilities, you're able to do that with ease and not worry about that admin side.
Tas Bober [00:27:48]:
Right?
Matt Carnevale [00:27:48]:
Cool. Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:27:49]:
Like how cool does that sound? It's more layman terms versus like listing out a feature and describing each feature to me and then leaving it up to me to put the pieces together.
Matt Carnevale [00:27:58]:
Yeah. Okay. So I love that. So I'm a, I'm a marketer and I have five features that I really want to talk about. Is it like pick one or am I baking all five into the story?
Tas Bober [00:28:09]:
So you can choose, actually. Okay, so sometimes features aren't strong enough to stand on their own, in which case you can find contextually where they fit into like, how you want to bucket it with some other things. For example, you might have like, amazing reporting dashboards. So you're going to talk about all your analytics and reporting functionality in kind of one, one theme. However, one of your big differentiators might actually be like one of my clients. It's like they proactively scan code bases instead of reactively doing it like everybody else. It's a core differentiator for them and it's a big feature of their product that almost deserves a highlight on its own. So it could be something like if you have three blocks where you're talking about these themes.
Tas Bober [00:28:55]:
Right? Value themes. One can just be the one big feature that you want to talk about. This one can be a bundled three or four features, and then your analytics can be, again a one. So you can do a 131141. And some things don't even deserve a mention, don't even deserve to be bucketed in. But that's where you drop it into something like an faq. Because if someone's like, do you integrate with Salesforce? Like, do you really need to bring that into one of the solution blocks? Probably not. So you can put it in the faqs and say, do you integrate with Salesforce? Yes, we do.
Tas Bober [00:29:28]:
And then when you're looking at data later, you can see if that actually gets a lot of traction from the heat map. And then you can make it its own thing. You can have an integration section and say, yes, we integrate with salesforce. Objection. Handling. There.
Matt Carnevale [00:29:42]:
Cool. Cool.
Tas Bober [00:29:43]:
It's both. It's a prioritization and a consolidation or summarization.
Matt Carnevale [00:29:47]:
Cool. Yeah, love it.
Tas Bober [00:29:49]:
Okay. Amazing. All right. And then the other thing that I told almost everybody was to level set by adding a problem block. So I like to add this problem block that's typically right under the hero. You'll have like, you know, a couple of logos or light proof or whatever you want there. And then right underneath is a problem block. And the reason that I tell them to add that problem block is because you are now making it about them and you're level setting for them what they can expect in the rest of the page.
Tas Bober [00:30:19]:
And what you're doing is you're empathizing with them. Do you watch the office? Do you watch the american office? See, I have to always qualify with this stuff with you.
Matt Carnevale [00:30:27]:
Yeah. I don't even know if there's a canadian office, if there is an office.
Tas Bober [00:30:29]:
Well, not canadian, but like, maybe you're like, boycott America and you're just like doing the UK office.
Matt Carnevale [00:30:35]:
No, no. Okay.
Tas Bober [00:30:36]:
Yeah, I'm trying to be inclusive, Matt. Okay.
Matt Carnevale [00:30:39]:
That is, yeah, I respect it. I respect it. Thank you.
Tas Bober [00:30:41]:
Okay. Thank you. So you know how Andy in the office talks about, like, how he gets people to like them and he talks about, like, mirroring and repetition and things like that. It's literally that same concept. So how do you get someone to like and respect you? They have some problems, which is why they're on your page. And so if you're sitting there and you're holding a mirror to them and saying, hey, this is the reason why calendar scheduling sucks. It's manual. You're spending, you know, an average of three to seven emails back and forth trying to figure out times.
Tas Bober [00:31:15]:
Most tools aren't standalone. You have to, like, buy a CRM to do it. You know, so it's ways that you can talk about the problem. And they're sitting there reading through that and going, check, that's me. Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, you know what? I didn't even think about that problem. You're right.
Tas Bober [00:31:29]:
So they're reading through and skimming through them. They're like, yeah, I am doing all of those things. That sucks. And then you go into, okay, well, this is why we exist and why we're here to solve that problem. We saw that same gap in the market, and this is how we solve for them. Right. We eliminate the whole manual back and forth. We give you insight into where you're spending your time.
Tas Bober [00:31:50]:
Through our analytics, we integrate with your workflow. So you don't need to, like, buy a separate, you don't have to buy it along with some, like, big tool. You can do it standalone. We integrate with everybody and their competitors. So when you're telling that story where it's like, here are your problems, we literally exist to solve your problems. Like, it just flows so nicely and it leads with empathy, rather than just saying, oh, welcome to our page. Here's some stuff about us. Here's our history, here are our awards, here's our solutions.
Tas Bober [00:32:18]:
Here's our product. Here are features like, okay, it's like that friend you meet with that never wants to listen to anything you're saying, and you're like, man, just talks about herself the whole time. That's what Dave thinks about me, you know? So that's just kind of how it goes in. But I, that's why I'm like, we can organize the information in a way that tells a story without having to have a story in every paragraph, but you can lay it out pretty strategically on the page.
Matt Carnevale [00:32:44]:
Yeah, yeah, okay. I love that point. It's funny, it reminds me, I feel like some of the best landing pages. I don't know who's writing these landing pages for them, but there's people that sell, like, those, they're not always liked, but those, like, one off courses or, like, I don't know, like a bodybuilding course or like a weight loss course or like a landing pages course. Not like you would do that. But it's like they write these insane landing pages that, like, list out and build the problem for, like, at least five minutes on the page you're scrolling and it's like, oh, my God, you feel it in your soul, and it's like, for a second you're like, do I buy this thing? Like, this could actually, like, solve my life's problems. Yeah, I think those are the best landing pages. And they do that, right? They spell out the problem so well.
Tas Bober [00:33:25]:
Yes, exactly. And some of my clients, too, like, they've talked about things like, yeah, you know, like, the champion is super bought in, but then they have to go through this huge approval process internally to help build a business case for us and stuff. And that's where it kind of falls off. I'm like, have you thought about helping them do that? Yeah, you know, just like, help them build a business case. And so we'll put that on the landing page and we'll say, hey, we'll give you a free poc if you like what you see. We'll help you build a landing page, will help you build a business case to take to your higher ups love it. Perfect. They love it.
Tas Bober [00:34:01]:
You're just being there, putting yourself through the buyer's shoes, and actually just acknowledging it, not something that's just like a back end process.
Matt Carnevale [00:34:08]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, cool. Cool.
Tas Bober [00:34:11]:
Okay. One thing is, especially in SaaS, differentiation is really hard. And I know Dave talked about this a lot, you know, and it's like, what's your actual differentiation? Sometimes people say AI, which is, like, really hard. And so sometimes there is no differentiation. And then what are you going to do? You know, you have to compete on price or something else or, like, likability. I don't. You know, sometimes there is just that. Yeah, but it's so important to weave that into the pages because just your product alone isn't enough.
Tas Bober [00:34:40]:
And I just found this with another client, too, where I did the write up for them just based on the product. And I read it out to them and they said, oh, you know, the problem with this is it just sounds like every one of our competitors. I'm like, oh, I know. That's why I wrote it for you, because I wanted you to see how if we just make it product first, product focused, you're going to sound like everybody else. So you need to weave in the differentiation into these paragraphs, right. About how and why you do it differently, super hard. I know. Especially if you don't feel like you have any.
Tas Bober [00:35:15]:
But that's where you go source some of that stuff. Maybe your customer interviews, maybe forums like Reddit, Exit five, whatever, and see what people are saying that's a little bit different about you, even if you don't know or have not acknowledged it yet.
Matt Carnevale [00:35:31]:
Right? Yeah. I've found that at past companies, the customer success team is typically a great place to look at for this differentiation because they're getting told, like, oh, the reason I like you guys over the last company or over the others is because this thing that you guys do, that I really like, and that alone, sometimes it's to support the customer success team that actually is a differentiator. But, you know, typically they get a lot of that information, whereas sales is not always getting that information, depending on their relationship with the customer. So.
Tas Bober [00:36:02]:
And you have to build on that a little bit, too, because one of the conversations that I have frequently is, like, a client or something will say, well, we're so easy to set up, and that's our differentiator. I'm like, okay. But that's, that, to me, is as bad as seamless because it's one of those phrases in B2B that we're all very desensitized to because we hear it so much. And so what ends up happening is the minute I say, you know, I see, like, an easy to implement or easy to set up, I'm like, okay, you and everybody else, even though it might actually be your differentiator. So what I tell my clients is sometimes you have to, because people have this, like, bad emotional reaction to certain phrases and words, you have to find a different way to say the same thing. So it's like, it's the same information set in a different way, and it registers differently with them. It disarms them instead of, like, armor up. So something like, easy to set up.
Tas Bober [00:36:59]:
You could say something specific, like, you'll be up and running in nine minutes. Something like that. Right. It's still implying that it's easy to set up, but you're not making a generic easy to set up claim. Another example is if you want to say, oh, seamless integration into your. Whatever you say. You don't have to alter your workflows. We work with the tools that you're working with.
Tas Bober [00:37:21]:
Something like that. So just a little nuance and rephrase kind of helps say the same thing without actually saying the same thing. Okay. Yeah, we're going to get into the juicy stuff because I think we. Okay, we have, like, 20 minutes, right? Okay.
Matt Carnevale [00:37:34]:
Yeah. Yeah, let's do it.
Tas Bober [00:37:35]:
Let's do it. Here's my favorite stuff. Okay. When we actually come lower onto the, like, lower below the page. I wrote a post about testimonials a couple of days ago, which actually did really? Well, nice. And that was because I had done a series of short interviews with, like, a bunch of technical buyers, because half of my clients tend to be technical icps. That's who they're targeting. And I'm married to a developer, then turned, like, head of analytics, bi, that kind of stuff.
Tas Bober [00:38:08]:
So very technical, very resistant to marketing, doesn't understand how we have jobs. Like, very resistant. Okay, yeah. Shout out, Mister Bober. And so he. So I did an interview with him first, and I was like, okay, I want to know if your peers feel the same way. So I met with directors of Infosec, vps of compliance, all of these people, and I had all these interviews, a CFO, CTO, and I had no skin in the game. So they were like, happy to talk to me because I was like, I'm just curious, and I just want to know how you buy software.
Matt Carnevale [00:38:39]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:38:39]:
And I had all these conversations with them, and the surprising thing that they told me was, yes, they want to see testimonials on sites. No, they don't care about your awards. So, yay. Some of them didn't even know what g two was, which was shocking to me. And then finally they said, yeah, we like the testimonials on sites, but honestly, we don't think that they're real people. I'm like, wait, you don't think that they're real testimonials or you don't think that they're real people? And they were like, oh, no, both. And I was like, what do you mean? Where do you think we're getting this stuff from? Like, well, you know, maybe marketers are just like, making it up and putting people on there, but they're not real. And I'm like, okay, but what if they are real? And so they were like, well, we just ask our peers anyway.
Tas Bober [00:39:22]:
And I'm like, okay. I said, what would convince you that the person is real? And they said, oh, just link to their LinkedIn profile. I'm like, oh, that's so simple. Yeah, why didn't I think of that? So now it's one of those things where in the testimonial block, having a testimonial isn't enough. And there are some highly regulated industries like healthcare, pharma, you know, those kinds of things, where it's kind of understood that anonymity is like a good thing. So these are not including those guys. Like, you do whatever you can to the best of your ability. Sorry about you guys.
Tas Bober [00:39:58]:
But for everybody else, testimonial, you have the picture title name, company, LinkedIn profile, you have to make that person seem as real as possible and accessible. They may not reach out to these people, but they just want to know that you're a real person. And in your testimonial, sometimes I'll see just buckets and buckets of text. Like, look at this amazing three paragraph testimonial we got. This is how much they love us. People skim before they invest. So you got to highlight the one or two lines that you think is most impactful in there. And the more specific the testimonial, the better.
Tas Bober [00:40:34]:
So if someone's like, great product, love them, great team, that doesn't tell me anything. But if someone was like, I had x problem, and then I was able to save x amount of time, whatever, and now people are going to be like, great. Give your clients a template and have them fill it out. Well, no, let them say it, but just talk to them and you give them direction. When I ask for testimonials, I say, hey, can you give me, you know, I would love if you wrote me a testimonial. Make sure to include something about some of the results or even some personal wins for you so you can guide them. Don't write it for them, don't give them a template. Let it be authentic.
Tas Bober [00:41:14]:
But just make sure that specificity is important in there. So, and have at least three. So sometimes people will just have one quote and think, that's enough to make a $30,000 decision. It's never gonna be enough. Have at least three rotate it through. And so that's like the testimonial block, which is super important, but it is the second block that's most important on the page, the first being your faqs, which we touched upon a little bit already, but I've seen it now, dozens of pages. My friend Jesse, director of product marketing at I think it's like menflow or something. Anyway, he posted about how I told him to do the faqs, and he's like, okay, I ran a test with what Tas was saying and we saw the same thing.
Tas Bober [00:41:55]:
17% of all clicks on the page were just in the faqs.
Matt Carnevale [00:41:59]:
Oh, wow.
Tas Bober [00:41:59]:
And I saw it across all my clients as well. Faqs, people just jump there. And the hilarious thing, people were commenting on LinkedIn and they were like, probably because it's the only place where it's really clear what they actually do, which is like sad.
Matt Carnevale [00:42:14]:
But yeah, sure, yeah.
Tas Bober [00:42:16]:
So I'll do a post later on, like, what makes a good faq. But again, we talked a little bit about that. Features that can't stand alone, common questions from your sales calls, customer calls, things like that. Put that as a start.
Matt Carnevale [00:42:29]:
That was gonna be my next question, so. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Honestly, I've even used with some information, like, when I was creating faqs for. I think it was something. We just launched the marketing leadership accelerator. Like, yeah, I used. I honestly just battled a lot with chat GPT and was like, if you had questions about this thing, like, from this perspective, this person, what would you ask? And it gave me some really good answers, and I was like, cool. So it wasn't that hard?
Tas Bober [00:42:54]:
No, no, it's really not that hard.
Matt Carnevale [00:42:56]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:42:56]:
And, uh, one thing I will say is if you're doing it on a landing page, you may come up with, like, 15 faqs. Don't put all 15 on there. Do a prioritization exercise, and try, like, five, six, or seven, depending on the landing page, too. Your testimonials and your faqs need to be specific to, like, the intention of that page. So if you have a product page, I've seen this over and over again. The same testimonials are used on the homepage. The product pages, the landing pages, they just, like, have this bucket and they just rotate. It's like shared block throughout the entire website.
Matt Carnevale [00:43:32]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:43:32]:
And you're like, okay, you claim that you worked with all these companies. Like, 20,000 customers. Trust us, but you're only able to share feedback from three of them. Like, that just doesn't seem fair or viable. So you want to have specific testimonials related to, like, each product or each page, depending on, you know, what the intention is of that page. So that's definitely an area. And then your faqs, obviously, your faqs can't be generic. They have to be related to that specific product.
Matt Carnevale [00:44:02]:
Gotcha.
Tas Bober [00:44:03]:
You know what I mean? So.
Matt Carnevale [00:44:04]:
Totally.
Tas Bober [00:44:04]:
So you'll have a set of 15, but you can kind of split them up, but make sure that you have them and you're thoughtful about what you put on a page. And don't just, like, blanket templatize.
Matt Carnevale [00:44:13]:
Yep. Amazing.
Tas Bober [00:44:14]:
Okay, great advice. Good so far.
Matt Carnevale [00:44:16]:
Awesome.
Tas Bober [00:44:16]:
Still with me?
Matt Carnevale [00:44:17]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tas Bober [00:44:18]:
Okay.
Matt Carnevale [00:44:18]:
Super tactical. It's great.
Tas Bober [00:44:20]:
The last piece is that almost everybody, no surprise, almost everybody asks you for a pretty large ask right out the gate. Meet with us, sign up for our product. And the problem is that as a user, you only have two pieces of leverage online, and one is your information and two is your time. Most B two b companies ask for both. You're asking them to make that transaction, give away their leverage. Right. You're giving them access to you indefinitely. You know the minute you hit submit, it's done.
Tas Bober [00:45:05]:
You're either going to be harassed. Right. Indefinitely. You may or may not be able to unsubscribe. Who knows? And so at that point, it's like, ask yourself, one, is the value that I'm giving them on this page worth the ask that I'm making of them? Have I given them enough information in order to make that decision to actually engage with us? That's always the question, am I delivering on the promise of my ad that's always there? And then how can I make this an easier decision for them? And so what happens most times is we put all the content down below and the form sits right above the fold, which is, like, so traditional. Like, this is how you have to set up a landing page. Put the form right up top. Yeah, but that's like asking someone to marry you before you've had a chance to date and you've given them nothing to go off of.
Tas Bober [00:45:55]:
Right.
Matt Carnevale [00:45:56]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:45:56]:
And so I told everyone it's counterintuitive. Put the form all the way in the bottom, and then what you want to do in the bottom is set the expectation for what happens next. Not all the way down to closed one deal. Right. But you can list the expectations and say, hey, we've given you all this information. We respect your time, so we want to tell you what to expect after you submit the form, someone from our team will reach out to you. Within 24 hours. We're going to set up a quick discovery call.
Tas Bober [00:46:26]:
It'll be 30 minutes. We'll go over your specific use cases, and then we're going to give you a custom demo with a solution engineer so that we cater the demo to your specific use cases. It's so simple, but just telling them what to expect and saying, we're not going to bombard you with marketing messages unless you want us to. We're not going to harass you more than this. Right. You're giving them all those signals. It kind of helps disarm them a little bit of, and just increases the likelihood of them engaging because they're like, okay, it's pretty low risk. They're treating me with respect.
Tas Bober [00:46:59]:
They're going to treat my information and my time with respect. Love it. Doing it.
Matt Carnevale [00:47:03]:
Love it. So that copy of what to expect, is that just like, beside the form in the same container? Pretty much. Okay. Cool, cool, cool.
Tas Bober [00:47:11]:
Yep, same block. You can do a left right with some things. This is like more of a Ux thing. But I would not ever put more than three columns of copy on a page. Typically one block with copy central that has a higher likelihood of being consumed. And then the second is a two column, which is pretty traditional. You have an image or something on the side and then you have copy on the left or whatever. Those tend to do better.
Tas Bober [00:47:41]:
One of the things that I found working with clients is that there's those blocks. I don't know if you've seen them, Matt, where they have tabs, like, you can, you know, it's like, here are all the features and then you can click through all the tabs and it shows new copy and stuff. That's. I've used them, I've created them on many websites. And I'm like, oh, it's so flashy. It's a good way to consolidate copy and not make it long. No one reads that.
Matt Carnevale [00:48:04]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:48:05]:
2000 sessions and I had the value propositions for my clients in that block. 2000 sessions later, we're looking at the heat map. I'm like, there's not a single person, not one person clicked on the other tabs. Wow, I was beside myself.
Matt Carnevale [00:48:21]:
Yeah.
Tas Bober [00:48:22]:
And anyway, so after that I'm like, well, that's a risk that I'm not going to take because consumption is everything in b two B. So that's something that I'm like, eliminate. We did the split up blocks where they can actually scroll through the page. It's actually better from an ADA standpoint. So you live and you learn. One last point I want to make about service businesses and differentiation, which I said I was going to come back to, and I want to make sure I deliver on the promise of that. The services one is so hard from a differentiator standpoint. And so the only way I can think about doing it is if you're just offering a really niche service.
Tas Bober [00:48:54]:
I mean, that's like, at the end of the day, like, I have a couple of service clients and so they are like strictly it consultation and for finance. Well, that's good. That's like a very niche industry. At least it like makes the path a little bit narrower rather than like, we're it consulting for everybody, brother, right? Yeah, yeah, you and everyone else. So that's the point. I always try to push them towards differentiation on the landing pages, at least from a services standpoint, by like just pick one vertical and one thing and just see if, like, that's the money maker for you.
Matt Carnevale [00:49:30]:
Yeah. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Love that. No, this is great. There's one thing. I made a note to ask you. I feel like I let it slide too quickly. You said put the form at the bottom of the page.
Tas Bober [00:49:40]:
Yeah.
Matt Carnevale [00:49:41]:
Which is, like. So it's crazy. It's crazy. I've never heard anyone say that, and I just wanted. So there's two questions I have. So, one is, why? But the second one is, is there not some kind of confusion from the user standpoint? Like, the user comes into the page and is, like, expecting to fill out their information and, like, are you throughout that page, then making it super easy for them to get to the bottom, or you're comfortable waiting till they get there to fill out some information? So just talking through that one.
Tas Bober [00:50:10]:
Yeah. So say someone searches for, like, you know, calendly. Like, well, calendly is probably not a good example. Give me a. Give me a sales. Okay. Sendoso demo or something. Right? So if someone's searching for Sendoso demo and they go to a demo landing page, I.
Tas Bober [00:50:26]:
That one is okay to have the form up higher because they're probably at the end of the line. Right? Like, they are there. You can reiterate some of your differentiation, have some of your testimonials down below. And that one's okay because they've dated you enough that they're ready to have a conversation with you. Right, right. They're ready to, like, take it to the next step. Not to get graphic on a b two B podcast. I was like, wait, what's it.
Tas Bober [00:50:51]:
Never mind. Anyway, I need to show you the memes that I made of Lachey and me at the conference because you guys shared, like, all the professional pictures, and she sent me one and one of them. So funny that I just made all of these things because her. For anybody who didn't attend, obviously, Lachey gave a very motivational speech on just, like, going solo and things like that. And she had talked about living your dash, which is, you know, you have your birth date, and then you have a final date coming up. You don't know when that is. Just live your life. You know, make those decisions, whatever.
Tas Bober [00:51:25]:
And I made this meme that said, on top of Lachey, it said, you know, live your dash, you know, you're gonna die one day. And then there's me with, like, my face is, you know, looking really perplexed, and I'm like, ma'am, I thought this was a B2B conference. So I'm gonna post a whole carousel on that, because it's gonna be hilarious. But anyway, I digress. Demo, okay? If someone is asking for one, make it easy to give them one. But if someone is just exploring your product and you want to get a demo out of them, they don't know enough to make that decision. So what happens is only 30% of people actually make it to the bottom of a page traditionally. Right.
Tas Bober [00:52:05]:
And you know that that 30% is probably invested, but you want to tell the story and empathize with them a little bit more. The problem is that that form sits on very important real estate, because 100% of people are hitting that top part.
Matt Carnevale [00:52:20]:
Gotcha.
Tas Bober [00:52:20]:
So when 100% hit the top part and they want to learn about your product, and you've covered precious real estate with a form that they're not even ready to fill, you're kind of losing some of that signal that you could get real estate to show them your product. So I'm like, get rid of the form. Put it all the way in the bottom. Yes, you're right. You would put, like, anchored links. So when you have that single CTA, you click on it. It can take you all the way down to the bottom, to the form. So it's very much like it's accessible.
Tas Bober [00:52:49]:
It's just not in their face the whole time. Like, don't worry, I'm going to make an ask of you. Don't worry. Right. So you can use that real estate to showcase the product. Maybe an illustration, you know, a gift, something like that, to just showcase what you're actually talking about. Even a video. Some clients I've seen use like a deep testimonial, although I would recommend that for kind of later stage in the journey.
Tas Bober [00:53:15]:
But definitely use it to showcase the product or, you know, run a point home versus shoving an ask in their face right away. Like, that's so. It's so like car salesman to me. Like, you walk into a car dealership and they're like, what were you looking for? I don't even know what I'm looking for. Like, get on the back. Right?
Matt Carnevale [00:53:32]:
Yeah, yeah.
Tas Bober [00:53:32]:
So there's that. And then, yeah, so I explained the why. And what was the other question?
Matt Carnevale [00:53:36]:
The other one you answered, just like, will people know how to navigate if there's no form? Right up top. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tas Bober [00:53:43]:
Which that, yeah. You can do that through experiences. So I used to always say, no navigation on your landing pages, but I actually think on the landing pages, it's nice to have an anchored nav where it just takes you to different sections of the page because it's another way you can see in heat map data what people are most interested in.
Matt Carnevale [00:53:59]:
Nice. That's smart. That's smart. Okay, cool. And cool. Just one small thing for heat mapping, you're using hot jar. What do you mean?
Tas Bober [00:54:06]:
I'm tool agnostic. I use hot jar just because I have for years. But I do know that there actually might be better tools out there. I don't know, but a lot of my clients, I just use whatever they're using. So. Crazy egg, hot jar. There's like trust something or the other. I don't know.
Tas Bober [00:54:22]:
Microsoft clarity, a lot of people use that. They love it, but they're all free up to a certain point. So hopefully it's something that you can just implement. I think Hotchar, you get 2000 sessions for free and you don't need to watch recordings of every single session on your site. But 2000 is a good sample size to look at the heat map data. Just see how people are interacting. So it's free. You can implement that.
Tas Bober [00:54:45]:
The only two tools you need to start making optimizations on your landing pages are just heat mapping with the screen recording they all have it. And then some kind of website analytics tool. Either Google Analytics for most people hate it. So you can use any other web analytics tool that you're using so you don't need to do anything fancy.
Matt Carnevale [00:55:06]:
Cool. Awesome. I think that's a good note to end off on. Do you have any final things that you didn't say that you wanted? We have a couple minutes here.
Tas Bober [00:55:14]:
One of the things that I did tell people was just like, okay, what signals do I look for? Because if I'm nothing going for on page conversions, like that's the biggest piece. Like they're not going for on page conversions because it's B2B. Hockey stack says average 31 touch points or whatever for low acv product. Well, okay, what do I do? Well, one, don't kill the campaign. Yeah, okay, keep your base campaigns running. But the signals that you want to look for are things like, is the scroll depth increasing? When I first started it was 30% reaching the bottom. Now it's 50. Okay.
Tas Bober [00:55:47]:
People are reading the information on the page of. Look at the things you can control. You cannot control them converting on your page, but you can control what information you're giving them and how they're consuming the information. So if there's an FAQ, that's an important part. Like, I'll give you an example. Snagit was one of my clients. And in the FAQ section. It was kind of a throwaway question.
Tas Bober [00:56:07]:
We had a piece in there where people were clicking heavily, like 167 clicks. It was like insane. On this one faq that was asking about if they bought a license. Because a license is lifetime, can they transfer it between devices or did they need to buy multiple licenses? It was such a simple, like, it was not something I would ever think about. But because we were giving them a lifetime license, they were like, well, can I use this across devices? What if I get a new computer? Or, like, because it's an app on your computer, it's not like a cloud app. Yep, valid question. But making that, like, we push that one up higher, we put the faqs on other pages and stuff. And then I.
Tas Bober [00:56:47]:
We actually saw an increase in buys, not just trials. Like, people were just straight up buying. It was like they had the objection, it was low enough cost. They were like, I'm just going to buy it. Yeah, you know, cool. So those are the signals you need to look at. And are people coming back to your main website. I know your overall hand raiser is going up.
Tas Bober [00:57:04]:
This is what Pranav talks about with incrementality, 100%. Like, his was my favorite talk. And he talked about that. And so you want to look at the overall lift from that campaign, not just how the landing pages are performing with on page conversation versions, cool tasks.
Matt Carnevale [00:57:21]:
That was so much tactical knowledge. I think that's what people are going to really like about this episode is like, you can pause, go to the link you talked about. You can pause and look at your landing page and do the thing. Look at the heat map. So that's what I really loved about this episode. I hope other people feel the same. Really appreciate you coming on, doing the teardown in the first place, and then talking about your learnings. So much free value you're given to this community.
Matt Carnevale [00:57:44]:
So really appreciate it and, yeah, we'll see you around.
Tas Bober [00:57:46]:
Yeah. You hear that, Dave? You hear that? Thanks, guys. Thank you so much. Please reach out to me on LinkedIn if you have any other questions or you want me to expand on anything more. But, yeah, thanks for having me, Matt.
Matt Carnevale [00:57:57]:
Of course. Always a pleasure, Tas. Thank you.