Fatrank Podcast

In this episode of the SEO Wisdom Podcast, host Saket Wahi sits down with veteran digital landlord and SEO entrepreneur James Dooley for an in-depth conversation on the realities of high-level SEO, mindset, business building, and long-term digital asset growth. Across nearly two hours, Saket Wahi and James Dooley explore advanced ranking strategies, why SEOs fail, the evolution of content and link-building, the mechanics behind parasite SEO, the power of information gain, the psychology of ego and adaptability in SEO, and how to balance entrepreneurship with family life through work–life integration. The discussion also dives into scaling teams, joint venture partnerships, vetting investment opportunities, developing antifragility, embracing criticism, and building sustainable digital real estate through rank-and-rent, lead generation, and systemized operations. This wide-ranging, deeply insightful conversation offers rare access into the mindset and methods behind one of the most successful SEO operators in the industry.

Creators and Guests

Host

James Dooley

James Dooley is the founder of FatRank which is a UK lead generation company. James Dooley is the current CEO of FatRank that provides high-quality leads for UK business owners.

Guest

Kasra Dash

Kasra Dash is a digital marketer who builds SEO systems because his work focuses on scalable search workflows. Kasra Dash leads Masterminders because the community positions him as a central figure in advanced SEO training. Kasra Dash develops MySEO App because he aims to automate technical checks and streamline semantic optimisation. Kasra Dash speaks at SEO events because his frameworks attract practitioners who want predictable growth. Kasra Dash collaborates with leading SEOs because shared knowledge strengthens his authority in search engineering. Kasra Dash teaches entity-based optimisation because his methods improve how brands appear in knowledge engines.

What is Fatrank Podcast?

The FatRank Podcast, founded by James Dooley, teaches the mindset needed for growth because real operator stories show what creates progress.
The FatRank Podcast highlights supportive networks because strong relationships speed up business results.
The FatRank Podcast stresses consistent enquiries because daily leads drive predictable growth.
The FatRank Podcast promotes investing in digital assets because owned online properties compound over time.

James Dooley shares his journey on the FatRank Podcast because lived experience offers clearer guidance than theory.
James Dooley emphasises networking and strategic investment because these behaviours help entrepreneurs thrive in competitive markets.

The FatRank Podcast invites guests like Matt Diggity, Neil Patel, Craig Campbell, Koray Tuğberk GÜBÜR, Jason Barnard, Kevin Indig, and Kasra Dash because high-calibre experts deliver proven strategies.
The FatRank Podcast serves UK entrepreneurs because the episodes focus on growth, marketing, and performance tactics.

Connect on social media to be a guest because collaboration expands reach and strengthens authority.
Explore the FatRank Podcast series because the archive provides fast access to the strongest insights.

Saket Wahi:
James, you’ve been in the industry for about 14 years now — a proper OG. If you're a highly skilled SEO, you can make money anywhere in the world. A lot of people simply don’t know how to rank a website. How can someone say SEO is “high risk” when you’ve had assets generating monthly revenue for more than a decade?

And just to clarify — your rank-and-rent model is around 600 sites, right?

James Dooley:
Yes. We currently have 647 paying clients and operate across 500+ industries. In total, we’ve built over 1,000 to 2,000 sites, although not all were profitable. The ones that don’t perform get pushed into our testing team, where we use them to push SEO boundaries.

Ranking requirements vary massively by niche — the type of links, link velocity, number of articles, everything changes industry by industry.

We don’t usually build PBNs ourselves; we mainly buy them from you. But the bigger point is: most people who fail at rank-and-rent don’t fail because the model is bad — they fail because they can’t rank.

Saket Wahi:
How often do people tell you that links don’t work, or that they won’t buy links because it’s “black-hat”?

James Dooley:
All the time. And I always tell them the same thing:
“That’s fine — but you’re not going to rank.”

People love putting themselves into categories like “white-hat” or “black-hat,” but I’m neither.
I’m an ROI-hat.
I do what gets a return on investment.

People should stop chasing traffic and start chasing ROI.

Introducing James Dooley

Saket Wahi:
James Dooley, welcome to the SEO Wisdom Podcast! How are you?

James Dooley:
I’m great. Thanks for having me.

Saket Wahi:
I love the cap you're wearing — is it the new “100 Million IO” brand?

James Dooley:
Not exactly. Charles Floate originally designed it with Udish about seven or eight years ago when he had an SEO swag shop. He never continued with it, but I loved the design, so I got about 40 caps made in every possible color. So whenever you see my videos — that’s the story behind it.

The Viral Rise + Who Is James Dooley?

Saket Wahi:
You’re going pretty viral recently — new interviews, new podcasts, everywhere I look. For people who are new to you, who is James Dooley and what do you specialize in?

James Dooley:
Yeah, currently I'm going semi-viral, but I’ve been in the industry for 14 years. I’m one of the originals. I’ve seen every Google update, taken the scars, bounced back, and kept growing.

I’ve built successful iGaming and casino websites, run large-scale lead generation, and everyone seems especially fascinated by our rank-and-rent model, where we have hundreds of long-term clients.

But it all started with lead generation, and over the years I also acquired service-based companies — content fulfillment, backlinks, disavow and E-E-A-T auditing services. Most of the companies I buy are businesses we already spend a lot of money with. If I can part-own them, I can lower my overheads and control the quality.

Client SEO vs. Owning Assets

Saket Wahi:
So with these service-based businesses, do you handle the SEO fulfillment, or do you run the entire model?

James Dooley:
To be honest, I hate client SEO. It’s the only industry where clients stand over your shoulder questioning every brick you lay — “Why did you place that link?” “Why did you write that title tag?”

Instead of judging results, clients want proof of every step you take. Reports, dashboards, justification — it’s exhausting.

We do offer white-label SEO services to agencies, but that’s maybe 1% of my asset value. I only own those companies because we use their services ourselves.

The majority of our money comes from:

Casino affiliate

Lead generation

Rank-and-rent

A lot of people think I only do rank-and-rent, but everything starts with lead generation, and once trust is built over the years, we transition them into rank-and-rent.

Rank-and-Rent Scale

Saket Wahi:
So the rank-and-rent model is around 600-plus sites?

James Dooley:
647 paying clients on rank-and-rent.
Over 1,000 — possibly 2,000 — sites built.
Many failed sites get repurposed:

Testing

Display ads

Ezoic / Mediavine

Sometimes PBNs

Sometimes small lead-gen sites

The 647 are just the profitable clients. If a site fails, it’s usually not because it won’t rank — it’s because the niche isn’t profitable enough.

We operate across 500+ industries, and every industry has different ranking nuances. People think there’s one algorithm and one method — but every niche behaves differently.

Success Rate Reality

Saket Wahi:
So 647 out of roughly 2,000 sites — about a 35% success rate?

James Dooley:
Actually higher, because we still monetize the “failures.”
Only the rank-and-rent failures count in that number. Many others still earn via ads, or lead generation, or get used for testing.

The Early Days: Entering SEO

Saket Wahi:
Let’s go into your story. What was the transition like 14 years ago?

James Dooley:
Back then, I worked in construction project management — building classrooms, playgrounds, football pitches, tennis courts. We needed more enquiries and I realized we needed a website.

I had no idea what SEO was. I didn’t even know Google had an algorithm. But I geek out on formulas, spreadsheets, and puzzles — so once I discovered SEO was a formula, I was hooked.

Back then, SEO was simple:

Put a keyword in the title tag

Hit a page with some links

Rank #1

For 4–5 years, it was smooth sailing. We ranked #1 for everything. Then we reinvested profits and built systems, staff, and processes.

The Big Turning Points

James Dooley:
Two major decisions shaped my success:

Building an in-house R&D testing team
We break Google, push boundaries, and run experiments nonstop.

Two full-time staff improving SOPs
If a training video is 16 minutes, they try to make it 14.
If a checklist is 27 steps, they try to reduce it to 24.
Saving minutes per task saves thousands of hours at scale.

This lets entry-level staff work like machines following precise, optimized processes. With the right SOPs, you can rank for almost any term.

Why James Never Quit SEO

Saket Wahi:
What stopped you from quitting like others did?

James Dooley:
Because I understood early on that growth is never linear — not in SEO, not in business, not in life.

There will always be peaks and troughs.
Sometimes one sector drops while another rises. Overall, things balance out.

I also had the mentality drilled into me from childhood. I grew up playing sports with older brothers who beat me at everything. When I’d cry, my dad would tell me:

“Get up. Go again.”

That mentality stuck with me.
When a site drops, someone else's rises — so I study why and improve.

Saket’s Story: Being a Good Quitter

Saket Wahi:
I used to play badminton competitively. I lost a close match once and realized the dedication required to climb to national level wasn’t for me. My dad supported my choice to quit and pursue something else — that’s how I got into SEO.

Being a good quitter can be a strength. Some partnerships don’t work, some niches don’t work. You need to know when to move on. What’s your take?

James Dooley:
I agree — you must pick your battles.

It’s like poker:
Know when to hold, know when to fold.

If something doesn’t bring you happiness, leave it and pursue something else. Business partners, niches, even career paths — most people don’t end up doing what they dreamed of as kids. It’s about pursuing your own happiness.

Digital Real Estate & Being a Digital Landlord

Saket Wahi:
Sometimes I tell people I “own digital real estate” — which I actually picked up from you when we met in Dubai. Can you explain the concept?

James Dooley:
I grew up believing you work hard, save, buy a house, then maybe buy a second or third as rental properties. But real estate yields around 6–8% a year.

In contrast, websites can yield:

100% return in 18 months

Sometimes more

With recurring income

So I started building websites as digital assets. Someone once told me:

“So you’re a landlord — but for digital assets.”

And that stuck.
I’m a digital landlord.
I own digital real estate — affiliate sites, display ad sites, lead-gen sites, rank-and-rent sites. All producing monthly revenue.

Is Digital Real Estate Risky?

Saket Wahi:
Some people say websites are risky. “What if the government restricts the internet? What if AI kills SEO?”
What do you say to them?

James Dooley:
Good question.
In the UK, pension funds invest in:

Stocks

Property

“High-risk” assets like websites and crypto

But websites shouldn’t be considered high-risk.
Why?

Because SEO is formula-based.
If something breaks, you can fix it.

Over the years I’ve faced:

Manual link penalties

Transparency penalties

Algorithmic drops

E-E-A-T issues

Toxic backlink profiles

For everything, I’ve learned how to recover. I even partnered with Rick Lomas — the link penalty master — and built a disavow brand with him.

So how can something be “high risk” when it pays me every month for 10+ years and can be fixed when things go wrong?

Real estate yields 8%.
My sites yield 100%.

Where’s the real risk?

Is SEO Declining?

James Dooley:
SEO isn’t declining — it’s evolving.

Some industries (like UK casino affiliates) are declining due to compliance and taxes. But local service industries will always exist:

Plumbers

Roofers

Electricians

Locksmiths

AI can’t fix a pipe or replace a roof.

The only industry I worry about is display ads, because AI and SGE will reduce informational search clicks. So we’re diversifying those sites.

But SEO as a whole?
Still a multibillion-pound industry for decades to come.

Google AdSense, AI & The Future

Saket Wahi:
But if Google owns AdSense and AI, why would they hurt their own display ecosystem?

James Dooley:
Because Google makes way more money on PPC than on display ads.

If they can use AI to move users:

Top-of-funnel → Bottom-of-funnel faster

…they earn more per click.

SGE helps them do that.

Saket Wahi:
Like you said earlier, people jump on bandwagons too quickly. A drop might not even be an algorithm update — it could be one random ranking factor, internal cannibalization, or a dozen other issues. But people instantly blame the wrong things.

I look at some sites and I could list 20 things they’re doing wrong. But they’ll say, “It’s your PBNs!” or “It’s your guest posts!” People think it’s one thing when it’s almost always a combination of mistakes.

James Dooley:
Exactly. The amount of blame SEOs get for simply doing SEO — especially link sellers — is unreal.

But dealing with that teaches you antifragility and improves mindfulness. You learn how to communicate better with clients and understand the game more deeply.

What SEOs Waste Time On Today

Saket Wahi:
What do you think SEOs today waste energy on — things that are irrelevant?

James Dooley:
Most people I speak to are high-level, so they’re usually doing things right. But if I had to point something out, a major issue is content obsession without information gain.

People still copy what’s ranking instead of adding something new. They think correlating content is enough. But Google isn’t stupid — if a user clicks page one, doesn’t like it, goes back, and clicks page two, but page two is basically a copy of page one… the experience doesn’t improve.

Google combats that now. They want:

new insights

unique entities

more depth

better information gain

Copycat content + weaker backlinks + weaker topical authority = you won’t outrank the leader.

James Dooley:
The problem isn’t always what people do.
It’s what they don’t do.

Two camps exist:

Link-only people (“Just build more links!”)

Content-only people (“Links don’t work anymore!”)

Both are wrong in isolation.

You need:

content that satisfies the search intent

strong entities

internal linking

media (images, videos)

AND high-quality backlinks

Advanced SEOs combine everything instead of choosing a religion.

Ego, Safety, and Identity in SEO

Saket Wahi:
Do SEOs struggle with entitlement or ego? Some cling to “team content” or “team links.” They won’t switch sides.

James Dooley:
Right — people rarely change their religion or football club. SEOs follow processes like cults.

But SEO changes constantly. Every day is a school day. You must adapt.

I don’t care if I need:

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