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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.61)
Hello, hello, how are we doing today?
Marina Daldalian (00:07.16)
We're here. We are awake. We are just doing the best we can today.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:11.816)
Yes. Surviving, yep. We're here. We're here. So for this episode of Messy Liberation, I am super excited about this episode. This is our, well, not our first guest episode, because we had Deon a few months ago. But this is our first guest episode with the intention of having guests this year. And so our first guest of the year is Marina Daldallian, someone that I have known for several years now.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:12.413)
surviving.
Marina Daldalian (00:31.31)
la
Taina Brown she/hers (00:40.905)
and have had the honor and privilege to work with and just get to know. We've ever met in person, so it's all been virtual as a lot of relationships are these days. So Marina, I'm just going to let you introduce yourself and tell us what your pronouns are, how we should refer to you, and then we'll just jump into today's talk.
Marina Daldalian (01:05.279)
Okay, sounds great. My name's Marina. Pronouns are she, her. I think I would say that I'm just a normal person doing my best. Have lived through several unprecedented events in my lifetime. So have very much learned to do the best I can, which I think aligns with the messy liberation sort of approach. My day job is a software product manager for a credit union. So I sort of bring a little bit of
tech and data analytics to my life. And then I also am a health coach and I'm health at every size aligned. So I love working with folks on anti-diet, weight neutral, health goals. That's been a big part of my life. I would say if there are two things, know, the two threads of liberation that I am committed to pulling on for myself are COVID awareness and mitigation and fat liberation.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:03.986)
Yeah, yeah. Awesome.
Marina Daldalian (02:04.812)
me in a nutshell.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:05.875)
Can I ask you Marina? You said you've lived through several unprecedented moments. I assume you mean COVID, but I just want to say, what is precedent at this point? Like, I feel like literally every day for years now has felt unprecedented. Like I've forgotten what precedent it even is.
Marina Daldalian (02:16.181)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (02:23.059)
I know, I agree. Yeah. I honestly, when I think about my lifetime of unprecedented events, it goes all the way back to 9-11 happened when I was in eighth grade and I was living on a military or near a military base at the time and my dad was in the Marine Corps. And I think that maybe because I was a child, things felt precedented before that. I may not have just been aware of what's going on in the world, but I've had a very deep awareness of things that are happening in the
Taina Brown she/hers (02:33.04)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (02:51.433)
since then and it just has been one after the other.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:54.731)
8th grade. She was in 8th grade. I feel so old at the moment, but that's okay. Thank you. I was out living my life, but hey, it's great. Well, what are we talking about today, Taina?
Taina Brown she/hers (02:54.939)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (02:57.824)
Taina Brown she/hers (02:58.336)
Yeah, I was in college.
Marina Daldalian (03:02.827)
Whoo!
loser
Taina Brown she/hers (03:07.728)
We, so the reason that I wanted to have Marina on the show today, one is she is just an amazing person and has a way of just articulating ideas and concepts that I'm just in awe of all the time. But Marina has been really instrumental in my own journey in understanding mutual aid. And so I wanted to have her on because we've talked about mutual aid before on the show. We've talked about
body neutrality, we've talked a little bit about COVID awareness. And every time we've talked about those things, whether on the show or just like, as an aside, me and you, Becky, like I always think of Marina. And so I'm like, we have to have her on the show because I feel like you, Marina, can just like really speak to those three things in a way that Becky and I can't. And so I'm just gonna ask you, where do you wanna start today?
Marina Daldalian (04:04.535)
Let's start with mutual aid. feels, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:06.277)
Yeah, let's start with mutual aid. can you, how did you get involved in mutual aid? Like where was the tipping point for you when it comes to mutual aid?
Marina Daldalian (04:17.642)
Mm-hmm.
Marina Daldalian (04:23.117)
say it started with, I truly cannot remember why I started doing this, but there was a period of time, maybe 2017, 2018, where I just decided that every Facebook fundraiser I came across, because I was on Facebook at the time, that I was going to donate $5 to. I had really wrestled with the guilt of having to decide who I was going to donate to, and it just didn't feel right to me.
that I would be spending so much time thinking about who was sort of deserving of my donations. So I just decided I was going to donate $5 to every fundraiser. And I did that for a couple of years. And I used this budgeting software called YNAB. And so at the end of every year, I was sort of taking stock of my end of the year contributions. And I was noticing things add up pretty quickly. That's actually pretty cool. So then in...
Taina Brown she/hers (04:57.699)
Mm.
Marina Daldalian (05:18.637)
I want to say maybe 2021, it was definitely post pandemic, maybe it was 2022. I joined the Association for Size, Diversity and Health and they're the owners of the Health at Every Size trademark. They do a lot of great advocacy and education for reducing weight stigma and combating anti-fat bias in medical settings and just our world in general.
and they had an amazing, they have an amazing annual conference every year. I went and I attended a session by Angel Austin, who is the person that I have learned so much about mutual aid from. And Angel just really laid it out at the time through the lens of fat liberation though, which is how it finally clicked for me, that sort of giving money in a way that had very few restrictions that was just really freely given.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:00.738)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (06:08.605)
is a form of mutual aid. So the things that really I remember the most about Angel's Session were primarily that there, if we accept that intersectionality exists, and I think the both of you do accept that, if we accept that intersectionality exists, then we also have to recognize that there are people in our society who are multiply marginalized, in particular, fat, Black, trans, and non-binary.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:23.755)
We do.
Marina Daldalian (06:38.05)
you know, humans. And in sort of the fat liberation world, like folks that are super fat or infinifat, which are these sort of political categories where you it's hard, you cannot access health care services. I mean, you are really just living on the margins. Those people really deserve our support, those of us who have the privilege of being employed, of having our needs regularly met. When she said that, it just kind of all clicked for me. And I was like, yeah, I
I had always recognized different, not always, I had for a long time recognized different privileges that I had, but one that I hadn't really recognized is that I have the privilege of being gainfully employed very consistently. And as a part of that, I should be passing the money that I earn because it's like, I should be passing that money along to people who, who really need it. Honestly, it's life saving. a lot of people like,
need these funds for medical equipment, for food, for rent. So I'll pause there, let you all ask any questions or reflect on that. think that's sort of like the story of how I got introduced.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:43.71)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:50.151)
Yeah, that's really interesting. go ahead, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:50.781)
Can you, yeah, I'm just curious, can you tell us a little more about like what your mutual aid efforts look like now? How it's different than when you were looking at giving $5 to each of these organizations or whatever and how it added up. Like, what are you doing differently now when you think of your giving, quote unquote giving through this like mutual aid lens?
Marina Daldalian (07:57.197)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:09.535)
Can I interject before you answer that? Because I want to pause right there and let us all take in what you just said about the intersection of fat liberation and mutual aid. And so I had never considered that as an intersection. And so the way that you just brought that to our attention is really interesting because even though I'd never thought about it that way, I remember
very specifically when I first moved to LA, trying to find a job. And it was really hard to find a job. I mean, it's always really hard to find a job when you are not a cis white hetero bro, right? But I remember hearing about this new restaurant that was going to open. And I had previous restaurant experience. I was like, this is great. This will be really easy for me to get in here. And I show up the day of.
the owners or investors, whoever, it was like a concept restaurant. So the investors were there and they're doing like the hiring and the interviewing or whatever. And there was a girl in line, a few people ahead of me, really cute white girl, or at least white presenting, pretty regular sized, right? Like petite and a woman who was
who was one of the owners of the restaurant. She was walking down the line looking at everybody. And when I say everybody, those are two separate words. She was looking at everybody and telling the person who I assume was her assistant or whoever who to interview based on how they looked. And I remember her specifically pointing to that girl and saying, she's thin.
Marina Daldalian (09:48.204)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:04.678)
petite, cute, let's move her up. And this was shocking to me because it was like, clear, everyone around could hear what was happening. Everyone knew what was happening. And so that experience was just like, my God, I'm definitely fucking in LA, right? But also that's just the world.
And so even though I'd had experiences like that before, been passed over for promotions or been paid less than what I felt like I should be paid because I had an inkling, it was because of the size of my body, even though that was not clearly stated, I had never thought about it as an intersectional issue. And so when you put it that way, it's like people who are in larger bodies and really fat bodies, like...
Marina Daldalian (10:47.756)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:56.003)
Of course, it's harder for them to get jobs, which means they don't get their needs met. And so I want us to sit with the weight of that, no pun intended, just with the depth of that statement. So anyway, yeah, go ahead. Becky's question, sorry.
Marina Daldalian (11:12.577)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. That's a great call out. It is, I would say similarly, it's an intersection that although I've lived it until I really started learning from other folks about, you know, just how powerful those impacts are of like how in society, you know, we are, we are really programmed to value certain types of bodies. And I think we,
Early in my activism, it was very easy to be like, yeah, if you're cis, hetero, white, male, like those ones are very easy to grasp. It was a little harder to recognize that, oh yeah, also in addition to being a woman of color, the size of my body really does dictate over time. It has fluctuated and it really has dictated how people respond to me. So yes, another intersection for sure. Okay. So Becky, back to your question of how my mutual aid looks different now or how it's evolved.
I would say early on it was more about just responding as often as I could in a way that felt accessible. So $5 felt like an amount of money that I could give without thinking about it. And now I'm a little bit more directed. So I do a couple of things differently. One is that I set aside a portion of my income every paycheck, again, in my budgeting software. This is not sponsored content.
but I just love having, yeah, it's making me need a budget. It's the thing that clicked for me. So I set aside a portion of every paycheck. have a couple of sort of like COFI or Patreon, regular monthly subscriptions for folks that are seeking mutual aid.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:43.219)
And for anybody who doesn't know, WIDENAB stands for You Need a Budget.
Marina Daldalian (13:05.941)
And then I just have a bucket of money. actually separate it into one time giving. So that would just be like GoFundMe's and stuff that I come across. And then I have a mutual aid bucket, which I specifically dedicate to sending people directly through Venmo or PayPal. No charitable giving receipts, no tax deductions. That's just money that I want to be able to give to folks. And having it set aside makes it a lot easier for me to just give when the need arises.
There is so much need that I zero out those buckets of money every month. But it also, the other thing that that's helped me do is sort of deal with the guilt of not being able to respond to every request that I see. So I think that's the other thing that has changed. Whereas in the beginning, I was very much, I'm gonna respond to every single fundraiser that I see. Now I recognize that giving consistently is...
the more impactful thing that I can do and also giving within my means so that I don't exhaust myself is also way more impactful. So I try to hold those two things.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:04.588)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:12.979)
Can I guess the I love all of that. The piece that I'm wanting clarity for myself and maybe for others listening is the difference in your mind between mutual aid and charitable giving. And what I'm hearing is the differences who it's going to and sort of how it's being moved about. like direct money, direct funding from me to you versus me going through an intermediary, like an organization that then distributes and doles out that money. Is that how you define that difference in what makes it mutual aid?
Marina Daldalian (14:41.742)
Yeah, I do. That is how I think about it. And you know, I think mutual aid, it can mean so many things. I have gotten a little bogged down in the past about how to describe this. So for folks that are like me, I would say I've specifically narrowed it down to within the umbrella of mutual aid, I have learned a lot about direct giving, giving money directly to people in need. That is where I really
have focused my efforts. That's the thing that feels the most important for me to do as a person that has access again to money regularly and has worked in. It's a little different now, but I used to work in big tech for a big bad corporation. So I was making really good money at the time and it felt even more important that I pass on money from one of the bad billionaires.
to like, well, all billionaires are bad, but one of the big baddies and like pass that money along. So now I work at a local credit union and that doesn't feel like quite as dire. yeah, so direct giving. I think the other thing that I, like you said, Becky, I really distinguish this. So one of the ways that I've noticed that I was really encouraged to give was charitable giving. So through philanthropic organizations, get your tax deductible receipt. There's a benefit for you.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:41.3)
You
Marina Daldalian (16:08.137)
As I gradually started learning, first of all about there are many issues in nonprofits, sure, but also just the institution of philanthropy, the way that billionaires have used philanthropy as like a PR, like an image washing endeavor, that really started to feel icky to me. And I have a really hard time separating what I know about that from.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:18.227)
Yeah. Yep.
Marina Daldalian (16:29.075)
me giving money to an organization so that I can get the benefit of a tax deduction so that other people can wash their image and, you know, wash their hands of the harm they're doing in the world. And then alongside that, I was also learning from Angel specifically about, you know, how so Angel, one of the things that that she does regularly is share flyers or requests for mutual aid from specific people and just seeing specific people who have to pay five hundred dollars a month for life saving.
medication, who have electric bills that are hundreds of dollars a month, who need $285 just to make ends meet and get the rent paid. I keep saying it just clicked, but it just clicked for me that I could give $25 a month to some philanthropy or I could just send it on Venmo to a person who could use that money. And I don't have to worry
That's the other thing I think giving to philanthropy sort of helps you feel like you're giving it to people who deserve it. And having to divest from that paternalistic model of giving was a huge part of this journey. So once I send somebody money, I, whatever, how do I know that they're a real person? How do I know what they're going to use the money for? I don't. Do I care? I don't care anymore. It's taken practice to get there, but
Becky Mollenkamp (17:48.307)
Mm.
Marina Daldalian (17:53.868)
The fact that I ever thought that I had the right to care about what people do with the money they receive is, I think, a form of internalized white supremacy just at its core.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:03.995)
Absolutely. Yeah. We did an episode on this very recently. So go back if anybody wants to. You can listen to episode 27, which I think we called like Beyond Charity about, I think you and I speak the same language, just using different words, because I talk about wealth redistribution and you're talking about mutual aid, but it's all the same thing. It's like this, how do we bypass the systems that are not necessarily helping us in the way we've been led to believe and create that direct action? So I love it.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:05.713)
See ya.
Marina Daldalian (18:19.799)
Mmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:30.372)
Yeah, they're gatekeeping systems, right? And so they're meant to let certain people in and certain people out. And that's on purpose. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the experience when we were in the mutual aid circle that we tried out for six months.
Marina Daldalian (18:33.153)
Yes.
Marina Daldalian (18:50.829)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:55.221)
you brought up this idea, I think you posted about it on Instagram. And I was like, I'm in, like, I want to participate in this. And I think there was like maybe five or six of us total who did it for like six months. And I know throughout that process, like we were constantly just like DMing back and forth with just like questions and like some internal struggles that some of us were going through, like doubts or like figuring out like how to deal with the guilt of not being able to
Marina Daldalian (18:59.136)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:24.547)
give to everyone. There were just so many things that popped off in that group chat through that experience. so I wonder if you could speak a little bit about what it was like to lead that, right? Because I'm assuming that was the first time you've done something like that. And then some of the things that you learned in helping to facilitate that process for other people.
Marina Daldalian (19:49.132)
Yeah, That was so that sort of sustained group of folks giving to one person for a longer period of time was an idea that Angel had shared. And Angel learned that from a mutual aid organization. It's in some other part of the country. I don't remember the specifics. But when I saw that idea, I
something just really sort of came together in my mind. I have a lot of experience working, being recruiting volunteers and organizing volunteers. so the way that it when I heard that idea, the way it sort of formed for me was, OK, if I make a really specific request, I bet I bet five people.
So guess it was five of us total, including me. So I think I asked for four people. I put out the request just in my Facebook stories and said, I need four people who are willing to commit to giving $25 for six months. It was super specific. I've also seen, you know, I've seen requests out there like, hey, we need to get a group of people together to, you know, make sure that this one person can pay rent or we want to get a group of people together to make sure that this one person gets this need met. I've seen it done that way as well. But for me,
My brain works little better with specifics. Four people, one of them being you responded. We sort of figured out the logistics. We were each going to take turns sending the Venmo so that one person was responsible for collecting all the funds every month. But the end result is that we sent $125 every month for six months to one person. And I think that the consistency over time, pooling resources together, and then understanding that the end impact is that
That person has $125, which you can do a few things with. Even in today's world of inflation, there is something more impactful about that. And I think it sort of just landed a little bit differently than, you know, me sending 10 or 15 or $25 as a one-off. So that's how sort of the group was structured. then, you know, organizing it, I definitely felt a lot of
Marina Daldalian (22:07.053)
perfectionism and sort of drive to like do it right and do more. All all tenants of white supremacy. I think just I really had to push through a lot of just it was hard. It was hard at first to push through, but the group we got together was great. And then speaking to some of the things I learned or some of the challenges that came up, because this was another thing, I framed it as an experiment. I really did want to see for myself how this would go.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:15.083)
Mm-hmm.
Marina Daldalian (22:36.842)
One of the ideas that I had had in my mind at the time was like, wanted to learn how something like this would work so that I could share my knowledge with other people, so could teach other people how to do it. I haven't done that yet. That idea still hangs out in the back of my mind. Part of the reason I haven't done it is because there was an overwhelming amount of stuff that I learned. And it just, yeah. So one of the things was,
Taina Brown she/hers (22:50.89)
You
Marina Daldalian (23:02.869)
Something that came up in our group or for folks in our group is that once they sort of got into the, once they got on mutual aid Instagram, they're coming across a lot of requests, a lot of flyers. Once you follow one or two folks who are doing mutual aid work and sharing needs, you're seeing a lot of flyers, you're sharing a lot of flyers, you're noticing that your stories aren't getting viewed as much. Then people start reaching out in DMs and they're asking you specifically.
for funds. This is something that I also encountered and it can be extremely off putting. was really rough and a couple of people in the group, myself included, shared stories about how this had happened to them before and it completely turned them off from direct giving. It was like, I stopped for a while. Somebody else in the group was like, I stopped for a while after somebody DMed me and was like, hey, can you contribute to my needs, to the funds that I need?
There were a few times that I reached out to Angel on behalf of our group and got some guidance on that. you know, I think so the thing we ended up talking about was that it's okay to have boundaries, like even when you are coming from a position of privilege and you're trying to share your resources, sometimes you do have to tell people like, hey, I'm not open to DMs or, you know, but the thing I think you also have to recognize is people are trying to get their, their needs met. And so they're going to do whatever they need to do. And it's okay if you're uncomfortable.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:20.955)
Mm-hmm.
Marina Daldalian (24:26.049)
That doesn't mean that you should stop supporting mutual aid. It doesn't mean you should stop sharing flyers. So that was a big thing is sort of recognizing. And I think this is a heads up I would give to anybody who's interested in getting into this work. Just be aware that this is something that could happen. Be aware that it could be uncomfortable and like, it's okay to have a boundary. It's okay to not be able to help everybody. It's okay to feel super uncomfortable. You're fine. If you're
Taina Brown she/hers (24:28.529)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (24:53.25)
basic, if your basic needs plus are being met, like you are fine. And if you were in that person's position, you'd probably be DMing strangers as well. So yeah, so I think that was one. And that was the big one that I sort of remember learning.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:57.457)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:01.297)
Yeah, yeah.
Marina Daldalian (25:11.201)
And I think if I were to do it again, just like I sort of shared that upfront, I would just share that. That would be the big thing that I would share upfront with folks. And the other thing I would probably do is sort of build in an off-ramp. So like, here's what we do next, because at the end of our six month experiment, I think it was just, it was like, okay, cool, six months, done. I know everyone in the group has continued to contribute individually to mutual aid, like to mutual aid, just.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:18.343)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:25.062)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (25:40.142)
don't want to call them fundraisers, but like requests or asks. They've continued participating. So that's a great thing. I don't think it necessarily always needs to be organized, but I love the idea of organizing groups of people because you can just amplify your impact so much when you're working together with other people. And so think I'd want to build in some kind of off-ramp, whether it's, know, hey, how are you going to carry this work forward or what do you want support and accountability for, or something like that to just make sure that people.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:42.79)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:54.662)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (26:08.683)
you know, feel like it's something that they can continue to do and just make a part of their everyday lives. Like any more is second nature to me. And when I ran my end of the year financial reports, I was sitting down like, all right, how do I expand the amount of money that I dedicate to mutual aid? Like, how do I add even more to that? Because it's it is a normal part of my life now and like where my money goes to. And they don't just want to stop and get really comfortable. I like want to continue pushing that forward.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30.245)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:37.401)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:38.109)
Taina, can I ask you as somebody who participated in that, what do you see as the benefits of, cause you could have just given like, like she was saying, you could have just given your money and maybe you still do, right? Like you could still find those same requests and throw your money that way. But what did you see as the benefit of the communal experience, the collective experience of you all doing it together?
Taina Brown she/hers (26:40.677)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:52.676)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:01.4)
Yeah, I think it's just that. It's the community aspect. Like I think when you, obviously any one of us could just decide today I'm going to give to this, today I'm going to give to that. But I think like Marina was saying, like there's a lot of internal issues that pop up when you start doing that. And so that can feel really isolating when you're doing it by yourself. But when you're doing it with a group of people, like you have those people to like.
talk through those things with to check you if you get out of line. You know what I mean? And so I think for a lot of us, we do have a lot of internalized white supremacy. And so you might feel entitled to dictate how people spend that money. You might start to feel super guilty about setting boundaries, right? Because maybe boundaries is not something that you're used to setting. And so having people in your corner to walk
through that with you is a lot easier and it does feel better. And you're building relationships, know, like, um, obviously I knew Marina before that, cause we've worked together. The other folks in the group, I didn't really know them and it's not like I keep in touch with them. Like, it's not like we're BFFs after that, but, um, I still follow them, you know, on social media. And so I'm still kind of aware of what they're up to occasionally these days. And so.
I think everything is just better done in community. I a facet of white supremacy is that toxic individualism. And so whenever you're doing it by yourself and you feel like that's the only way you can do it, then you need to interrogate where that's coming from because that's not the way that we're meant to live. I think one thing that you said, Marina, about like this, you know, this concept of just like setting boundaries and like,
Marina Daldalian (28:37.015)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:56.598)
basically opening the floodgates, right? Because again, social media is built, a lot of our digital lives are built on algorithms. And so once you start, you could Google mutual aid and then you're gonna get targeted with a bunch of mutual aid stuff, right? You could look for mutual aid on social media, you're gonna get targeted with a bunch of that stuff. And so I remember that point where some people in the group were just like, I'm getting the DMs.
it's feeling out of hand, like how do I deal with this in a way that is an integrity and isn't off-putting? I think the biggest lesson for me there through that experience was we might have the tendency, and I'll say this for myself, I know that I can and have had the tendency to when
that barrage of requests start coming in to just be like, damn, just like chill, you know? And to just kind of get frustrated and upset. And I had to remember that like, I can't be upset at people for trying to get their needs met. Like my anger should be directed at the systems that prevent them from getting their needs met. And so if you're in that situation, it's like...
sure, like be annoyed, but like be annoyed at the right things, be angry at the right things. Like these people are literally just trying to survive. And that could be me, right? And in fact, that has been me in the past where I've had to rely on community to like pay for gas or get to work or, you know, pay my light bill or whatever. Like I've been there. So I know what that's like. And I think when it comes to
the intersection of mutual aid and just like any kind of body. And this is something we talked about in a previous episode as well, Becky, like disability is like the one marginalized group that like anybody can fall into. And someone said this on our TikTok actually that I hadn't thought about it. And it was like, if you live long enough, you will become disabled. Like there's like the older you get, the more like
Taina Brown she/hers (31:17.695)
chronic issues your body will begin to have. And so it's something that all of us will be inducted into at some point. And so I think having the grace and compassion for people in bodies that don't look like ours or don't look like a normal quote unquote body is really essential. Do you have any other questions, Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:40.071)
Not on mutual aid, although I just, think what you guys, what you were doing sounds great. And I love this re-imagining of mutual aid. I'm in my head trying to think what's a cool segue into talking a little bit about health at every size, but I can't think of a cool segue. So that was the segue right there. But I'm interested in hearing a little more about your journey there because I, first of all, for people who know, like who only have a,
Taina Brown she/hers (31:41.417)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:08.419)
this would be me like who have a kind of an understanding of Health at Every Size. I know about the book written by now Lindo Bacon. I also like have just this like cursory understanding like just an outsider's heard rumblings on social media a couple of years ago about kind of a blow up there with I think the organization you mentioned that sort of originated or owns this idea of Health at Every Size and then Lindo Bacon who kind of popularized it with the book that they wrote.
and then them having kind of a fallout. And so like, I just know there's like stuff around it. That stuff probably doesn't matter much, but I don't know if you want to address any of it before we go into it, because I think sometimes when people hear Health at Every Size, they automatically think of Lindowmaker in the book. And it's obviously not just that, but that kind of was what I think sits in a lot of people's minds. I just know if you wanted to say anything about that piece before we moved into talking a little bit about it.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:57.021)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (33:01.685)
Yeah, I think that's a great starting point because you're right. That's a lot of people maybe have a superficial, not even, yeah, like a superficial awareness who maybe like aren't in like deep in the community where I was watching all of that play out in my first couple years of being a member of the organization. So I do vividly remember that whole thing. So yeah, so the Association for Size, Diversity and Health.
owns the Health at Every Size trademark. Health at Every Size has been through quite a few iterations. I'm not going to try to, you know, recap the history. They do a great job of doing that. Like many movements, Health at Every Size for a long time was a place where thin, able-bodied, white femme presenting or femmes were leading the work or not even leading because a lot of the founders were themselves fat. They were the ones who were
benefiting the most, who were the most visible, who were getting publishing contracts, being invited to speak. And Lindo is one of those people who was able to really make a good career on Health at Every Size and wrote a book and published the book by that title and was a really important figure in that community for a long time.
The sort of like inciting event, I guess, of Lindos Fall from Grace Within the Community was an activist and just like incredible all around human, Mikey Mercedes, I'm not gonna try to pronounce their last name, but Mikey Mercedes, just really courageously shared the ways that they were being taken advantage of in...
a sort of relationship where they were initially invited to be a co-author and then eventually like asked to be a ghostwriter for something Lindo was working on. And then it started coming out that a lot of other fat, black, disabled, trans and non-binary individuals had had similar experiences with Lindo. So again, like somebody who has these many intersecting privileges, taking advantage of the folks who are really driving the heart of this movement.
Marina Daldalian (35:17.003)
And there was a real lack of accountability on Lindo's part. They were invited to sort of speak to it and make amends. That didn't happen. Last I checked, Lindo was actually making their mark in the realm of like, what happens to a person when they're shamed out of a community? So really going hard on the cancel culture isn't the answer.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:36.962)
Wow. Yeah, just like digging their heels in, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:37.073)
as so many, so many do. That seems to be the, right, the ones who aren't willing to take accountability go down the path of cancel culture sex, Well, that's good.
Marina Daldalian (35:43.339)
As so many do.
Marina Daldalian (35:47.574)
Yeah, so that's where that is. What I can say for ASDA today, I've been really impressed with their leadership. They really do center the most marginalized folks. They really are focused on super fat and infinifat folks. are revamping. They're actually creating an entire curriculum for providers on how to incorporate health at every size principles into their work.
They've even come out with these like incredible principles that really just help you get rooted in the fact that health is a sociological construct. And actually back to something you were saying, Tana, that I just wanted to reflect on disability as the one marginalized group that any of us can join at any time. Something else I learned during an ASDA presentation is that there are bodies, are multiply marginalized bodies, humans in this world that can never achieve health.
as it's defined socially. So if you are, you know, fat, black, disabled, you can never achieve our social ideal of health that is not available to you. So what does it even mean? You know, the group that's currently leading as does even interrogating like, why is health important? Do we need to center health? What do we, you know, what do we do with the health at every size trademark? So they're doing great work there. I'm a
Taina Brown she/hers (36:43.832)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:56.898)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (37:12.075)
As a health coach, I've joined the organization as a professional member, but it's also open to community members. They do great teach-ins. They're actually about to kick off a series on Ozempic and GLP-1s through a fat liberationist lens because if you support body autonomy, some people really actually do need these medications, but also they are being, GLP-1s are now being touted as like,
Becky Mollenkamp (37:26.451)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (37:40.039)
the miracle drug for sleep apnea and heart conditions and alcoholism and, and, and. But really it's rooted in anti-fatness. It's really rooted in, and you'll also lose weight, which is obviously good. So I'm really looking forward to that. That's going to be a three part series.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:41.237)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:57.021)
Can I ask you how, as, you just called yourself a health coach right on the heels of the conversation about health, which is fine because we all grapple with, mean, this is the messiness, right? Right. I don't particularly love being called a coach at all because of the, industry, but I'm curious, how are you just internally dealing with that for yourself as the organization has figured out for themselves, but like, how do you internally as for yourself deal with what to call yourself and your own feelings around health?
Marina Daldalian (38:03.372)
Yeah, yeah,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:05.843)
language,
Marina Daldalian (38:06.772)
yeah.
Marina Daldalian (38:25.997)
It's such a good question. Deep sigh, deep sigh, right into the mic. I do.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:28.18)
How much time do you have?
Becky Mollenkamp (38:33.309)
Well, we only have like seven minutes, so keep it quick.
Marina Daldalian (38:36.844)
I do grapple for sure. I think that the way I deal with it right now is just on my sort of like booking platform and in my directory page about me. I'm really clear about what I think health is. It's like as defined by you and really clear that we can explore.
what health and wellness mean on a really individual level. And for me specifically, it can't include dieting or weight loss. I'm just not the right person to help with that. I have considered sort of changing that a little bit of like health coach. I've considered changing that terminology.
But then again, it's like, do I want to call myself something random that nobody's ever heard of? You know, do I want to call myself a wayfinder when like that is co-opting like indigenous, like, you know, roles that have been around for generations? I don't know. The other thing I'll say is I, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:30.419)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:37.427)
And we, oh, I was just gonna say we live in an SEO world too, right? Like as much as we hate it and we have, how do people find you if they don't know the terminology yet?
Marina Daldalian (39:46.006)
Right. Well, and like the where I'm listed is health coach directories. So I went through a really intensive training program to learn about ethics and actually learn how to coach in a way that's ethical and in integrity and learn about the scope of a health coach. As you know, anybody can call themselves a coach for the most part. Health coach or like there is one organization in the United States that offers a certification. It's a board certification.
It's developed by the same folks that board certified doctors. It's like very Western and very industrial medical complex, but I did all the fucking things. Am I allowed to cuss? I'm sorry. I did all the things. I did hours and hours and hours of coaching. I sat this four and a half hour exam. I passed it. I'm even wrestling with whether I want to actually do CEUs to re-up that certification, but like that is...
Taina Brown she/hers (40:26.994)
Yeah, yeah.
Marina Daldalian (40:40.27)
health coach. So when I say like, I'm a national board certified health and wellness coach, to me though, and the thing that I share with clients in our first meeting is what that means to me is that you have a place you can go if you need to file a complaint about me. There are standards that are holding me accountable for being an integrity and working within my scope so that I cannot diagnose or treat or prescribe anything to you or like harm you in any way.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:51.442)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:05.852)
Mm-hmm.
Marina Daldalian (41:06.981)
that there's actually ethical guidelines that I've agreed to follow. Those are the ways that it's important to me. try to take those little pieces of like, here's how I wanna use this, even though I know that that's not why the institution exists. The institution exists as a gatekeeper. Like the certification is a gatekeeping certification and I may let it go someday. We'll see.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:22.279)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:31.108)
Yeah, I think that's a good point because we've had this conversation, Becky, in other circles about how to call what it is that we do, what language to use. And I think a lot of the terminology that we're used to is rife with complications and drama and harmful things. But I think it's all we have right now until we can.
figure out something that is more aligned with the values that we hold and that is easily accessible to people because like, sure, I could be like, I'm a wayfinding guru, but like one that's co-opting, but also like how accessible is that to just like someone who's like, I just need to like quickly find a life coach or a business coach or something or a health coach. How do you...
Marina Daldalian (42:21.741)
If somebody goes, they're like, I want a health coach, and then they type in health at every size, I think on both directories I'm listed in, I am one of, if not the only result. So it's like, I want to be in those spaces so people who want that kind of support can find me, even if I have so many feelings. Okay, sorry, what were you gonna say?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35.235)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:42.819)
Yeah, no, no, it's okay. No, I wanted to say or to ask like where with your health coaching, right? And also with just mutual aid, like let's layer in COVID because I know that's something that you are very passionate about. And I got your Christmas card where you and Andrew called yourself. What was it? COVID intentional or?
Marina Daldalian (43:09.229)
COVID realists, COVID realists, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:10.606)
COVID realist, yes, yes. And I loved that terminology because I think it just adequately captures being in that place of just like, it almost feels like being in this sunken place sometimes when you're talking about COVID. Because everyone's just like, what do you mean? COVID's over or the pandemic's over, right? And it's really not. And so layering it in the realities of like COVID and long COVID and what a lot of people are considering a
Marina Daldalian (43:24.225)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:39.255)
post-COVID world, like how does that factor into like your coaching and your mutual aid philosophy?
Marina Daldalian (43:50.498)
Yeah, to me, they're really all interrelated in a way that makes a lot of sense in my mind. So, if I accept that in the video game of late stage capitalist hellscape America, that I get access to employment and money, not just because I'm intelligent and a hard worker, but also for things that I have not earned just for honor and privileges. If I accept that,
and I accept that there are people in this world who are just as hardworking, just as intelligent, probably more so than I am, and they don't have access to those resources, and I accept that I have some responsibility to share those resources, then it's also easy for me to accept that our current systems don't have everyone's best interest in mind. Like if I, back to what you were saying earlier, Taina, of like being mad at the right people,
Yeah, being critical of systems, really recognizing that
It's just, it's actually so just like simple and dumb, like the evil, it's really just greed to me. If I just, just seeing that really sort of helped me understand that ending the COVID public health emergency in the United States did not end the pandemic. It ended the funding mechanism that allowed states and allowed the federal government to fund
Taina Brown she/hers (45:20.298)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (45:25.165)
testing, fund free vaccinations, fund treatment programs, PPP loans, unemployment, stimulus checks, all those things. That's all it was. All they did was end the funding mechanism.
Marina Daldalian (45:43.158)
And that, think just knowing that, think once you start seeing the cracks of the system, right, you see them everywhere. Okay, we layer that in with health at every size, recognizing that anybody can become disabled at any time, that plenty of people in this country and in the world don't have access to health, to the social ideal of health, recognizing that actually so much of what we think we know about health is...
Taina Brown she/hers (45:48.82)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (46:06.475)
biased. A lot of what we think we know about the association between fatness and health or poor health is extremely uncritical biased research that is done from a place of assuming that larger bodies are less healthy. I think once I understand that, it's very easy to understand that long COVID is disabling and that it is more convenient for people to ignore that reality than it is to accept that it is true because ableism
allows us to live in this fantasy world where we think that that could never happen to us. And I think for me personally, there were cracks in that. So my partner is a cancer survivor. got testicular cancer when he was 30. We were very COVID conscious from the get go because we knew that he was at higher risk. We still don't really understand all the risks posed by an acute COVID infection. He's actually never had COVID.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:46.696)
Hmm.
Marina Daldalian (47:05.729)
which is a point of pride for us. He's never had COVID. I've had it one time, I brought it home and we were able to successfully isolate in our own house so I didn't pass it to him. That though is a starting point. And then also for me, I just started seeing people post about their experiences with long COVID and very simply, I chose to believe them. And I chose to believe that I wasn't different from them.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:06.044)
Well, yeah.
Marina Daldalian (47:30.69)
Then we started seeing Olympians talk about getting COVID. Then we start seeing a couple of celebrities talk about long COVID. I just, like, I am not different from them. I am not more deserving of health. I am not a better person. I am not safer or protected in some way. We start layering in the science and it's just like, the biggest thing for me is again, like similar to with mutual aid and giving, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to take COVID seriously when a lot of other people don't. It can't.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:41.288)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:46.002)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (47:59.822)
anymore it's honestly not that uncomfortable for me to mask but I'm the only person that masks in my office. I'm the only person that masks in pretty much any event I go to. At this point, you I went to like our holiday Christmas party. There was 500 people there. My partner and I are the only people in masks. But you know what? I'm not bringing COVID home. We haven't had norovirus. Like this is not to say that it's only because of our masking because there's a healthy degree of luck woven in there. But I think
Taina Brown she/hers (48:17.832)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:24.068)
Yeah, yeah, but it doesn't hurt.
Marina Daldalian (48:26.901)
Yeah, questioning systems, accepting that disability is real and that you will become invisible and that those people deserve to be visible and accepting that like people who are being disabled by long COVID exist and more and more people are falling into that group every day. I think all of those things have sort of woven together to inform the fact that I, for me, mutual aid just makes sense. Taking COVID seriously is a thing that just
again, make sense in alignment with my values and like, I can't ignore the way that I see the world. And then as I'm coaching folks and health coaching, I like bring all of that to the table. mean, most of the people I work with are chronically ill. And I should say like, I work with like two to four people a year. It's like a very, it's just a really like chill sort of word of mouth situation. But like they'll come to me chronically ill. We're not setting, we're not setting regular health goals in air quotes, you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:06.0)
Yeah.
Marina Daldalian (49:24.781)
If you can't work, if you have long COVID, if you have been in pain for 18 years, there are just things that are not gonna be accessible. So I'm not gonna pretend like they are. That's how that all sort of comes to the table with me. I just take that really realistic approach.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:36.346)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:41.192)
I just can I just point out two things you said because I feel like it sums up everything about you and about what I hope people take away from this, which is I chose to believe them and I chose to believe I wasn't that different than that. I'm not different than them. How much of the world's ills would be solved if all of us could just adhere to those two things? Right. I believe you and I'm not different than you.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:41.286)
Thank you.
Marina Daldalian (49:54.637)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:55.664)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:02.808)
Yeah, just believe people.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:07.931)
So if I'm not different than you and I believe you, then I have to protect you or I have to do what it takes to respect you, care for you, help you, right? And you do the same for me. So I just thank you for those two beautiful things because I feel like that's really it. You know, I mean, it sounds so simple, but it really is in a way that simple. And I also love that you use the word chose. I chose to believe them and I chose to believe that I'm not different than them because it really is a choice too that we all get to make. And too often many of us fail, but.
Thank you. Thank you.
Marina Daldalian (50:39.233)
Yeah, thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:39.534)
Yeah. Thank you, Marina, for sharing part of your day with us. If people do want to work with you as a health coach, where can they find you?
Marina Daldalian (50:49.901)
That's a great question.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:51.78)
Just Google health at every size health coach and Marina will pop up.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:54.099)
You can't.
Marina Daldalian (50:54.122)
Yeah
So I think it's my full name marinadaldallion.as. Let me just double check.as.me. That's okay. I'll confirm it.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:08.157)
We'll put it in the show notes, so make sure you send it to us and we'll put links to where you can connect with and or find Marina in the show notes so you can find that information along with some other resources that we've mentioned in this episode. Yeah, thank you Marina.
Marina Daldalian (51:18.286)
Thank you. I should probably know that. Yeah, thank you both for having me. It's been real. It's been real. It was really nice to chat with you both.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:22.286)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (51:26.173)
been a great conversation. Yeah, thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:28.836)
Thank