How Does Bias Shape Us? with Dr. Tracy Pearson, JD

PJ's guest is lawyer and investigator Dr. Tracy Pearson, JD. Together, they discuss the impact of bias on our lives, how to spot it and what to do about it.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[Unknown]: hello and welcome to chasing the vith and i'm here today with dr tracy pearson and

[Unknown]: we are going to talk about how does bias impact workplace investigations

[Unknown]: doctor pearson so glad to have you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

[Unknown]: uh doctor pearson uh with almost two decades of experience bringing and defending

[Unknown]: complex legal matters on behalf of litigants in state and federal court dr pearson

[Unknown]: excels in analyzing problems from multiple perspectives she is an expert in

[Unknown]: investigations and post mortem assessment of investigations in all domains

[Unknown]: including workplaces child welfare or government her research incorporates law

[Unknown]: organizational change theory pedagogical theory history pop culture and

[Unknown]: neuroscience to name only some of the disciplines doctor pearson drew from when she

[Unknown]: wrote after a neutral and impartial investigation implicit bias and internal

[Unknown]: workplace investigations which sounds really like a little bit complicated i'm sure

[Unknown]: like we'll get into those like um bits and pieces but i am really interested and i

[Unknown]: know uh that our audience at first it sounds specific but the idea of

[Unknown]: partiality

[Unknown]: are you still with us

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yes.

[Unknown]: oh

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yep. I'm here.

[Unknown]: does that mean

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You' frozen

[Unknown]: oh i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there. you are. you're moving now.

[Unknown]: think we cut up yep there oh we die we got out a second

[Unknown]: the idea of impartiality in matters of justice in terms of investigation is just i

[Unknown]: mean that's an old question right but it's also one of the biggest questions we can

[Unknown]: we can deal with so thank you so much for coming on the show glad to have you if

[Unknown]: you could give us just a little bit about yourself and how you got interested in

[Unknown]: this i'm sure people would love to hear the background on that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Sure, um,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yeah, uh, yeah, Yeah,

[Unknown]: my background

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in my background y, y. you know, you did a great

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: job of of

[Unknown]: talking about buy

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: talking about my my bio, Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, I have chased, uh, what I was going to be when

[Unknown]: i i have chased uh what i was gonna be when i was i grew up

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I was when I grew up for a long time. I'm still

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: chasing it. Um, and so, when

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know I started out wanting to be a teacher.

[Unknown]: i started out wanting to be a teacher uh actually i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh, actually, I, I think I started out wanting to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: be a navy fighter pilot. Um, and then and then I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: decided I didn't want to do that, Um, and I

[Unknown]: wanted to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: wanted to, uh.

[Unknown]: eventually

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: eventually, Um, I was. I was interested in the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: music industry. Uh,

[Unknown]: i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I played electric base and I, I, you know I, I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: actually went to school for about a year,

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um, uh, in college for for Music merchandising, Um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in New York, and switched to English. I'm and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: relocated again, Um, and wanted to teach. I did a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: little bit of high school teaching and went Mm. I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't want to do that and so Uh jumped to college

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: teaching. Um, and I was headed down that road and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I had a professor in graduate school, Uh at

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Syracuse University who we had a co, long

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: conversation and um, long storyor. Short, uh, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know, sitting around in an office, you know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: coming up with ideas that didn't ha impact

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: anybody.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, that were just idea, didn't seem to me to be a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a great use of my skill set. Um, I was a duer.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh, and so I, uh, he said, You know to try law

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: school, So it was doing an independent study, so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, go find a law professor. Well, by that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: afternoon I had a law professor in a book list and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I was. I was auditing a law class. You know the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: next term, Um, and

[Unknown]: i was like yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I was like, Yep, No, this is where I should be

[Unknown]: i watch

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: applied to law school On a whim, Uh, walked in.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh, took the ▁l. Sa. Like the day of you know, I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: didn't study or anything. Got a score applied. Got

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in. Uh, went to law school and my first D. it was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like Oh, you know, it was like Nirvana. It was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: amazing. Um. I, I was where I belonged,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um wanted to litigate, I wanted to go into Big

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: law. Nine eleven happened. Big laws stopped

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: hiring.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh. Big Law was paying people to stay home. I had

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a a classmate who Um ended up getting paid a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: hundred and thirty nine thousand dollars to stay

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: home because

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of the fact that they had given an offer she hadd

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: accepted and they couldn't, they. They. They

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: couldn't expand because you know there was such a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: tamp down on on industry, so um, uh, I went and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: took a a job at a small lawrm,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and uh then worked my way into, sort of, you know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: working with most of the partners clients. And

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: then, Um,

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: realizing I was being paid too little left, opened

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: my own law firm, and Uh started chasing things

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So Uh, I got really interested in investigations.

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. I started doing stuff for the court system,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and basically investigated anything you could

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: think of, Um, everything from child welfare

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: issues, parenting issues, to to people stealing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: money

[Unknown]: hm yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: from from estates.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and uh did workplace investigations, And there

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: came a point in my life where I needed to stop

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: practicing law. I litigated Uh for almost two

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: decades, Um. it. It's the type of thing that after

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you finish a trial, you throw yourself on the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: floor and you're like I can't do that again.

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I mean, it's just exhausting and I think clients

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't necessarily understand

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that. Um, you know, you take on your client's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: problem. Um, and as it as if it's your own if you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: do it Well, that's my, my, my bias.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, And and then it just kills you. it just kills

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: your your mental, you know,

[Unknown]: down

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ▁zaps, you, of all mental energy. it's Aps, your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: physical strength. You're on alert for you know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: however many days the trial is going, you're

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: up, you know, twenty four hours. sometimes, um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and you, you know, you're constantly rethinking

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: strategy and stuff and it was just exhausting. And

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so I, um. I.

[Unknown]: good

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that coupled with I had been diagnosed with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: asthma, late onset

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: asthma and being in dirty court roomoms,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: aggravated it. and so I, it. it was just like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay. I'm tired of a second on the inhaaler.

[Unknown]: yup

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, I got to really focus here, so I really focused

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: on investigations. Moved to California, took a job

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and looked around me, thought I, i,

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I.

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I had, I and I do, but I butt. I had the skill set

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that I needed, but there was really

[Unknown]: so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: something wrong with the way investigations were

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: being done.

[Unknown]: and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I really wrong and I couldn't figure out what it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was and it was really unnerving And so I went back

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to where I started and went to grad school.

[Unknown]: i had a doctor

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I had a doctorate in law.

[Unknown]: i went back to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I went back to law. Uh, went

[Unknown]: i think that i got the chocolate

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: back to grad school and I got a doctorate in Uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: education, Um, specifically an organizational

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: change and

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: leadership. And the way this program worked is it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: allowed me to pick what's called

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a problem of practice. So uh, P problem that you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: want to

[Unknown]: he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: solve. and Um. I picked Um. I. I was

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: trying to pick something around workplace

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigations. Initially, I started with sort of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: harassment and bullying because I'm I'm fascinated

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: by that, too. I'm

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: fascinated by why that happens

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, especially with adults.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and

[Unknown]: yeah kids like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like

[Unknown]: it make sense right yeah but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: kids don't know. Even they don't

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have you know this cacophony of life experience.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And so why are they behaving this way? But but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: adults. Why do they do what they do? Why are they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so nasty

[Unknown]: three

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to each other? particularly um in work places? But

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what I ended up

[Unknown]: talk about was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: talking about was uh,

[Unknown]: investigations and realizing that what was happening

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigations, and realizing that what was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: happening, the things that I was seeing, Uh were

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: all implicit bias,

[Unknown]: and so i m i well up and down

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and so I searched high, a low, up and down

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sideways. I mean I looked everywhere I spent. I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: created Google alerts. I mean you, the name and I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: did it, and no one had conducted a study on

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: implicit bias in workplace investigations, and I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: said Hm. I think I'll do one.

[Unknown]: so i expect to i work pos and uh

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So I conducted a study uh on an implicit bias of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: workplace investigations, and uh, the information

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that that that came out of it, wasn't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, I suppose, Given what I

[Unknown]: know what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know about, it wasn't shocking, but it was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and you know we

[Unknown]: talk about

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: talk about Um. in in investigations. Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know that were neutral and impartial. Nothing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: could be further from the truth,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So that's how I ended up where I am and and and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ▁ultimately, Um, you know I was interested in in

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: pursuing Um. you know, becoming a legal analyst

[Unknown]: what's that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: on television, and I had started making strides

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: towards doing that. Um, and Um. The combination of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: all these things coming together and swirling

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ended up really blasting me forward

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: into doing television and and now hosting a show

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and stuff like that, So um, I have a live

[Unknown]: which congratulations

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: show,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Thank you.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Thank you. It's it's it's It is a learning you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know, and it's fun. It's a learning experience

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like I know. I don't know what I'm doing And so I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: learned something every day.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know. It's like. Oh, So that's how that works.

[Unknown]: there you go yeah now so uh remind forgive me and i didn't catch it on here what's

[Unknown]: the name of the show

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Sure, it's called Deep Die with Doctor Tracy, Um,

[Unknown]: on data

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's on e, n s ▁l t, v,

[Unknown]: um and i the show uh io

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and uh, it's a. It's a weekly show. Uh, it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an hour long. Um, think of it as

[Unknown]: no

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know.

[Unknown]: the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Sort of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's It's

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like a Rachel Maadow type show In

[Unknown]: he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the sense that I'm trying to to sort of move the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: needle on the knowledge meter, Um towards more.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. But what what it really is is me bringing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: forward

[Unknown]: next one to talk about

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: experts to to talk about things so that that we

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: put

[Unknown]: you know he would uh solid

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, good, Uh, solid factual information into

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the environment as opposed to Um. political

[Unknown]: um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: punditry. Um, and it's a B. You know, it's an hour

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: long. My last episode of the year was. Uh. I had

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Doctor Stephen Hasson, on who is the world's

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: foremost expert on destructive cults and mind

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: control. He wrote the book The Cult of Trump,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and so uh that I got him as a guest,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was like a huge get.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but um, Yeah, and then I also appear and that that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: came after me. Uh, getting a gig on on being a,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I'm on a a talk panel. Uh, once a week, Um, it is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh, called the

[Unknown]: how

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Power Hour talk panel and we debate

[Unknown]: what's going on and you know much about

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what's going on in the news And you know there's a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: bunch of us, Um, and it's

[Unknown]: watch the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: watched and and and people comment on it And it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know. it's it's. we talk about all the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: controversial stuff and we fight with each other

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's great, Um, but, but my show is sort of more.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It's an attempt to try to educate the populace

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: because I don't think there's enough of that being

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: done.

[Unknown]: yeah i mean a definite moment of connection there in a lot of ways that's what i'm

[Unknown]: trying to do with this right like it's

[Unknown]: political punditry you know i i love there's several phrases there moving the

[Unknown]: needle on the knowledge meter i'm definitely stealing that like

[Unknown]: so so really really like that that's awesome you know it's fascinating i was

[Unknown]: telling

[Unknown]: my wife that uh we were gonna do this podcast today and her response was wait they

[Unknown]: haven't done a study on that like you know what i mean like when you met and i was

[Unknown]: like that because i remember it shocked me and watching the from the outside that

[Unknown]: reaction you know where she was like she was like how has that not been done you

[Unknown]: know like we're

[Unknown]: what forty fifty years into at least like you'd think coating this stuff and no not

[Unknown]: even close so we

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Well.

[Unknown]: go ahead

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah, and trial lawyers, you know, For years. I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mean, we were talking

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: years, years and years and years have been trying

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: these employment cases and what

[Unknown]: here

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they've tried to do is bring sociologists, some

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: folks in and put them on the standus experts to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: try to do a correlation.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So you know, over here you see implicit bias so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: therefore it follows that there was implicit bias

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: here.

[Unknown]: no

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Nobody has done a frequent study

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and I don't have any idea why That the closest

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thing I got was a Law Review article that had that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: first of all disagreed with, but it was a Law

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Revie article that had no study to it. It was just

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sort

[Unknown]: so like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of analyzing some stuff. It was the closest thing,

[Unknown]: and my

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and like my my dissertation, share looked and low

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in sideways

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: as well and were just like. Well, I guess you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the first, and that was daunting.

[Unknown]: yeah oh absolutely

[Unknown]: yeah and then people don't realize i think one of the things is there's this

[Unknown]: illusion of great data and for people who have never collected data they don't

[Unknown]: understand

[Unknown]: um how empty it is and how hard it is and how dirty it is that makes sense like um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: what i'm reading i i just did an interview with dr lewis gordon

[Unknown]: he's the head of philosophy at yukon and

[Unknown]: i was reading in his book and he did

[Unknown]: he's a black man grew up in the bronx and he was talking about he went to do

[Unknown]: studies on police brutality and the numbers were shockingly low and he's like this

[Unknown]: doesn't fit at all with my experience all the stories that i from everyone i know

[Unknown]: and then when you look at all the data all the data is based off of

[Unknown]: police convictions

[Unknown]: which of course is like i and you know and i i'm not here to start an argument

[Unknown]: about that and if you're listening what the important thing is that you can't

[Unknown]: this will get into the impartiality of it you can't ask the people who are in

[Unknown]: charge

[Unknown]: who who are being like the ones that are being charged as the ones to keep track of

[Unknown]: the data for it it's like it's a clear conflict of interest right and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: right.

[Unknown]: so it's just like and i'm sure we're going to run into those kind of moments as we

[Unknown]: talk about this

[Unknown]: what would be the best way to talk about the study so when you when you think about

[Unknown]: when you started this what are the results you found most interesting what was your

[Unknown]: method as you walk through this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Sure, sure, let me start out with the

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: method. So Um, I came at it from Um that that this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is a a. an a knowledge problem, or rather an

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: education problem to be solved. Um. And and so Uh,

[Unknown]: i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I was looking at it using Uh, Clark and S. T's uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: gap analysis model. So Um, what was the the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: knowledge of of Uh, and I was focusing on for for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the written study that I've written. It's it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: focused on internal, but I collected data for both

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, internal and external investigators,

[Unknown]: right i remember you mentioning that y

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So the uh. The, the

[Unknown]: talking about what is what is the knowledge

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: question was what is what is the the knowledge of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: internal investigators about implicit bias Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what is um, the uh, motivation for doing the

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: work? Uh, why are you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a a workplace investigator and Um. What

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizational factors Um are either mitigating or

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: aggravating Um. implicit bias in workplace

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investig, Ent, So I was looking at it as as a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: knowledge motivation and organizational factor

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: issue, Um. All three of these components sort of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: working on this problem. Um. and the the method

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was it? It was it, you know it was. It was a mixed

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: method study, so I did uh, a

[Unknown]: so that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: survey, uh, that I wrote

[Unknown]: celebrate

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: myself That included also a psychological

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: assessment Um. on social desirrability that was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: embedded within it That had a uh, very

[Unknown]: so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: strong, uh, uh, uh, reliability, Uh, and validity

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: factor, Um. I abandoned the I a t, which is the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: implicit association test, which has just all

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sorts of really. It's

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's it's. It's ubiquitous and it is actually so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: flawed because all it does is test time, like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: time, reaction. Um. And so what I'd went with was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: social desirrability, Um, which got?

[Unknown]: is that um forgive me for interrupting is that like they put pictures on screen and

[Unknown]: you have to hit different keys

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah. the. I. A t. it comes out of. I don't know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: exactly who wrote it, but it's It's hosted on this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Harvard site and I don't want to you know, cast

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: aspersions on it, but it every, there's been a.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: There's literally two schools that fight with each

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: other constantly

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of thought that are just like Is is garbage is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: grays. garbage is great.

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and really, what it comes down to is is it can

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: be pictures or can be words. And

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and what happens on the screen Is there's you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know. they'll sh. It's insects or flowers, And

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: then it, what they're trying to do is get you to.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: They're trying to capture the, and they switched

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: them around and they switched the words around on

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the P on the page like positive, negative, bad,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: good, whatever, whatever the words. Because

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there's different iterations of this

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thing out there. Um, it's very much open code. Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And so the idea is what they're trying to do is is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Ca, and you're supposed to do it as fast as

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: possible. You have like two fingers on a

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: keyboard that you're trying to do this with, and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: which what you're trying to do is capture what's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sort of this. This overhang Ss are like a hangover

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of of effect of I see something. And then I apply

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: my thoughts and feelings about that. This next

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thing. that's completely unrelated and

[Unknown]: know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: somehow that sort of captures. If that makes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sense,

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, an implicit bias. Uh, That is part of of your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thought process and the argument against it, and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the reason why I. I didn't use it. Um. Because I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: think it's a very strong argument. Uh. based on

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: some of the data to come out, Um, In other studies

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: be cause. there studies about the study

[Unknown]: of course yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know is that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um is that it is testing your reaction time, and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the more times you take it, the faster you get it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: doing it. That you're the

[Unknown]: white

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: implicit bias, That thing that they're trying to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to test it. it it gets. it gets less. and so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really you're testing someone's reaction time and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: not not their, Um. their mental thought process.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. I had thought about creating one like it,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but it required way too much coding that I just

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: didn't have time for.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um. yeah, um,

[Unknown]: i have i have taken it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yeah, so I, yeah,

[Unknown]: and i hate i hated it

[Unknown]: i felt really weird i like i didn't really i i'm not good with uh reflex type games

[Unknown]: anyways my wife kills me at a dutch blitz and games like that so i i it was the

[Unknown]: most nerve racking experience

[Unknown]: and i i would start thinking about something else which is just like typical of me

[Unknown]: anyways and then i'm like wait did i just record something that i'm like horribly

[Unknown]: you know i have this horrible implicit bias

[Unknown]: yeah no it's sorry that just i was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: no, no, no,

[Unknown]: like was you were describing it i was like i have taken that yeah yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: y, you were having. You're having a a trigger

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: response. Yeah, no, it was it was I, I don't. I've

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: taken it. I, you know I didn't like it. I didn't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like the way it worked that that God, this is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: going to be too hard. so um. I, I, and it's not

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: going to help. It's

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: not going to help. It's going to be attacked by

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the people who who attack that test.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I don't want to do that. I want this to be

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: incredibly valid. So, um, what I did was, I went

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: with a social desirability test,

[Unknown]: hm hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and so embedded with it that survey without

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: them knowing, Um, was a a series of questions.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: where Um. you know I. it. things like you know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, I never litter

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and you're supposed to to say to a false. And so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there's a series of things. Um. and and what it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: testing is, you know there's a sort of an average

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: out there, Um, and it's testing how how likely Um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you are to like. Give answers that uh that make

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you look good

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: versus you know sort of truthful stuff, like a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Rais dropped a gum wrapper on the ground right,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and so I,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's it's testing that sort of stuff. Um, and uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, generally speaking, what it found was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that it workplace investigators, whether you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: internal or external, Um, that you, you tended to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: lean in the direction of wanting to be perceived

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: as socially desirable,

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And that became important in the study for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: understanding. Uh, Um, why investigators Um, will

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: do with the organization who hired them wants them

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to do,

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and they won't stand up and say, Wait a minute.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: No, this is what the evidence says. This is what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: we're going to do and if we have to fire the vice

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: president of whatever, then that's what we're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: going to do. Um. you know that this was the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: finding.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and so you know it. it. It somewhat explains a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: little piece of of of of why people who Imp are in

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: power get to skirt the. the. You know, the, The,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: The ramifications or accountability. Um. So that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was embedded in there,

[Unknown]: h

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, there was questions embedded in there about

[Unknown]: think about my favorite

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: things about. Uh, I, my favorite series of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: questions. Actually, Um,

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they work together, Um.

[Unknown]: and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And they were just declaratory statements with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: nothing more.

[Unknown]: so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so for example, most um, allegations of of sex

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: based harassment or discrimination are usually

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: true, and you had to pick on a on a scale of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: either, um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: y, you know, definitely, yes, yes, uh, neither,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yes, no, no, uh, Some, you know, maybe a something

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like that, it was like you know this five five

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: scale um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: uh, uh, gradient. And what happens is that that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the only right answer to this question is neither,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yes, no, no,

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: if you're if you have, If you don't have a bias,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: every other answer

[Unknown]: mm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: indicates that you

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have a bias. Because when you look at the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: question, the question has no facts.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So it's based on your opinion about most of these

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: cases. And so you have to be aware that you have

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that bias. And and you have to correct for it. So

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really what the study was testing was not E. Most

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigators have a book knowledge understanding

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of implicit bias, but they don't have applied

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: knowledge. They don't understand how it comes out

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in their in, in in their work and where it can

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: hide.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and um.

[Unknown]: you know that's the one um in the other side of the other question

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know, so that's that's one thing, Um, the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: other set of the other question and that was my

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: favorite was

[Unknown]: e

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I gave them a like a series. I can't remember of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: maybe twelve uh words. Their adjectives, um, or

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: feelings, their emotions,

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So I feel, uh, you know, happy, sad, frustrated,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um, Indifferent was a word I put in there and Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and you know they were basically all binaries,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and uh, they're mixed up and

[Unknown]: i yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I asked them to without,

[Unknown]: no

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: without more. Uh, without any other. Whatever I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: said,

[Unknown]: i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I want you to select

[Unknown]: oh

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: all of the feelings that you've ever had

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: conducting investigations,

[Unknown]: no

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: not one investigation, not to, not, in first, not

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: your last all,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and at any time, and their

[Unknown]: fun

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: response was to pick indifferent the least amount

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of times.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So they. They apparently have never felt neutral,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Because

[Unknown]: the did you got

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the dictionary definition of

[Unknown]: the different

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: indifferent is neutral.

[Unknown]: um and i found that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and I found that just

[Unknown]: shopping and watching in some way secure on given

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shocking, and wonderfully in some ways revealing.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. given the way that

[Unknown]: any other questions for you um one of the the biggest fine that the matter being

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the other questions were answered, Um, one of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the biggest findines that came out of the internal

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh data. so the internal investigator data was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that, Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know, there's this narrative out there that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: men don't believe women like men don't believe a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sexualsault

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: happens or sexual harassment happens. And with the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: data showed was

[Unknown]: that too

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that men believe women more than women believe

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: women.

[Unknown]: when

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: When I started to analyze the demographics

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: on it, Um, that to me, Um was huge,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: That these these male investigators were more

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: likely to believe, have an implicit bias that this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was true.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and women were much harsher, which makes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: complete sense when you understand things like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ▁queen B syndrome, which came out of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: seventies, and basically in a nutshell, Um. peop

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: women in in authority are much harsher on women

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: who are are lower than them in the hierarchy. Uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and there's been a lots of studies on that.

[Unknown]: interesting

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so Um it you know, the the with the study

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: demonstrated was that I workplace investigators

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: are not neutral. They don't understand how it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: creeps up in their in their investigations. Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they also told me ninety five percent of the time

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that their organization interferes in their

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigation.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So you know, the the people who hire them to do

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this work or telling them what to do. Uh, you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when they're supposed to be independent,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, And and so

[Unknown]: what people

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what it did was it

[Unknown]: eta

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: established.

[Unknown]: and i work many to more

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And and I worked really really hard with my

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: committee in

[Unknown]: christmas um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: my dissertation share, Um, to make sure that this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was that and reliable. Um, in every way, Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: because it was so important and

[Unknown]: said that what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that that what it established was that that there

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is a problem

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and that the lawyers were right, there's a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: problem.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and Um, and so out of that came a bunch of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: recommendations And you know, one of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: recommendations was a conceptual model, Uh for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: training Um, that I developed. So how you would

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: train Uh, We don't train people correctly, Um,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but how you would train an investigator, Um, or

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: anyone else? frankly, Um to recognize implicit

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: bias in in a in a contextual uh situation, as

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: opposed to just like Hey, This is what implicit

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: biases

[Unknown]: um and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and uh, you know I, I came up with a a tolkit

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um. On

[Unknown]: no

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how to analyze your organization and figure out

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: where implicit bias is hiding, Um in your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organization's uh, compliance structure, Um, I,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um.

[Unknown]: okay

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: also, uh, recommended that we needed to have

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: policies and procedures that made sense.

[Unknown]: um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. that's sort of the shorthand of it. Um. But

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that made sense when it came to when an

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigator felt that the organization was

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: interfering in their investigation so that they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: would be able to do something about it and not

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: just move in that direction of social

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: desirability. Um. Because the reality is is that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there are people who are

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so dependent on the outcomes of these

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigations, there, the people who have been

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: accused of the people who who are are doing the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: accusing Um. and they are their, their. Their

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: lives. In many cases are depending on the outcome

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of this

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and the power that you hold as an investigator

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is enormous And you need to understand you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when your your mind is is abusing it, Um. and

[Unknown]: why

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, you know, I also came up with a different

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: definition of of Um. Of implicit bias, because I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: didn't think it was accurate.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, I really wantn't understand where it came from

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and what it what it was. And so I did a lot of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: neuroscience research to find that out.

[Unknown]: okay so tell us what would be your definition then of implicit bias because i think

[Unknown]: that's a

[Unknown]: that's obviously very important to what we're talking about yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah, yeah, um, you know, I imppsbias. Generally,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: as understood, is the unconscious beliefs, uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that guide our actions and that just doesn't do a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: justice.

[Unknown]: um what dealing with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. What it really is is a survival mechanism.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It's a. it's the unconscious beliefs, Uh, that act

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: as a survival mechanism. Um, as a result of uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what's called pattern detection and probability

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: determination, Uh, which is how your brain

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: processes information. Um, that, uh, you know that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um

[Unknown]: sports

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: informs how you,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh, you know how you're going to make your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: decisions about essentially what to do next. Now

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's a paraphrase about what I wrote. But but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ▁ultimately, my definition incorporates

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Neurrowscience because Um, you know, for

[Unknown]: i don't know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I don't know how long. I mean, I guess ever since

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: racism started, right, Um, that that we've have

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: racism in a races well, is racism. May I fix it?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It's racism. We gotta fix

[Unknown]: oh okay

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it. Oh, okay, it's racism. We have to fix it.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay, tell me how.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Oh, well, here's the thing. Here's how your brain

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: works, right

[Unknown]: last week

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: your brain? Your entire life has picked up data

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and it's picking up down at twenty four hours a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: day, seven days week. Even while you're sleeping,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's picking up data. It's searching and looking

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: for information and it's categorizing that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: information into. You can use the term buckets.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You can turn boxes. however you want to call it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: bins. Uh, you know, across the ocean, they'll use

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the term bin,

[Unknown]: um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, but your brain is putting it into categories.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It's also um, engaging in the fastest blackjack

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: game that you have ever played and that it is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: taking the information in trying to figure out

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: where to put it and trying to what to do

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: with it. So when you're in a given situation and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you are, you are taking in data through all of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: your sentence, S senses. Your. Your

[Unknown]: we

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: brain is trying to figure out what is it. Where do

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I put it and

[Unknown]: how do i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how do I? how? What do I tell the body to do with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it? And so all of that collides

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and that came out of Um. A couple of studies. Uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: one in particular, Uh, dealt with, and it was a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: basic. These studies are so basic and they're so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: important,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: came out of a study where A, um, uh, they were

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: looking for something else. Really, um, but what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they learned uh, was that these people were asked

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to come and sit an M I machine

[Unknown]: and they were showing a series of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and they were shown a series of pictures, Uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: about twelve of themem and they're

[Unknown]: ask yes with the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: asked to guess what the next picture was.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: simultaneously. They're taking a You know a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: snapshot of the brain

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and Um, they were trying to guess what the next

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: picture was going to be, but they had to do it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: quickly and for everyone that got right, Uh, they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, got a monetary, uh, incentive. So there

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was. there was a um. An interest created for doing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: well and doing it

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: accurately. Okay, so, um, so that way that that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the people were committed to doing it, and A, as

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they lay there, and as these pictures came across,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what they realized was that

[Unknown]: what do you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: pattern detection and probability determination

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: happened at the same time. And so really, what it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: comes down to is that your brain hasn't changed

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: since the first model that came out. The software.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know, that's that's operating it. Basically,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's the same version that you always had. Um.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's taking in information and

[Unknown]: i don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: back when we were trying to save ourselves from

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: tigers.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that made sense. it was. We were a much simpler

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: time. but now with the massive quantities of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: information we've taken in over our lifetimes, and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: take in on a daily basis, Um. the brain. C. It

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: makes mistakes. It's not infallible And so I'm not

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: saying that racism is a mistake. Okay, because

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there's a difference between implicit bias and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: direct bias. There are people who are racist that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know they're racist. They won't say they are, but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they they. they are

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: racist. They know they have a bias.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: That's a direct bias. But then there are people

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that engage in things like microggressions.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know, Um. They make statements that they don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: recognize as being racist

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and that is Um. That's an implicit bias That is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: somehow, uh, been created as a result of a A of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that probability, termination and pattern

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: detection over their lifetime.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So, um, the way that you fix it is should become

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: aware of it. Um, and one of the things to come out

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of my study also was um.

[Unknown]: i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, um, I did something

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: novel apparently, and where I said, I think that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when you're interviewing and

[Unknown]: mm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an a a person in an investigation that you should

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: tell them Hi, I'm not infallible, I, I am very

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: much valuable, and um, I have implicitfias. You

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: haven't pusted bias with all implicit bias, And so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: if I say something to

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you, If if I ask you a question where you feel

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that I am engaging a bias,

[Unknown]: well

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I want you to stop me and tell me so that I know,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: because until you recognize it, you can't do

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: something about it. And because it's implicit,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're not aware of it.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And and you know, so I want you to seed some power

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: as an investigator, seeed some agency or authority

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and give that to the person sitting behind the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: desk. And it does two things.

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: One, it helps you realize when you're being biased

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and too, it gives them a feeling that you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: goingnna be fair

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that you're going to treat them well because they,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they have some power. Now

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it, they come into the room and I've done this. I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mean, I've been you know investigator for a long

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: time. These people people are scared. they're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: petrified. they. It's it's they know you have the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: authority that you're making a determination. and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Wh you know that they th just just the amount of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: pressure on them. and um,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, some folks come in angry, and and for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: example, the example I give folks is that look.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a black man comes in. He's been accused of se

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: harassment and he comes in and he's angry.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I don't treat that as evidence. I

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: treat that as an opportunity.

[Unknown]: that's fight or flight response right you're going to see that most of the time

[Unknown]: right in stressful situations

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You're going to see that, but in particular, it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: also he's carrying the weight and burden of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: history on

[Unknown]: yes yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: his shoulders, because you know of of all of that.

[Unknown]: here we go again right yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: exactly. and so I know that when I engage with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that person I have to say Hey like I know. You

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know that you're probably really afraid. Um that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I've prejudged you and I want you to understand

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that I haven't, and let me tell you

[Unknown]: i

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how I think I know. I pre, you think I've rechuged

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you? You know that your black man who's sitting in

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: front of me is a white woman who who you probably

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: think that I, I think you did it. I want you to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: understand. I understand history. I understand the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the stress that's on you right now and I,

[Unknown]: i don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I don't know anything. What I need you to do is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: tell me your side of the story and I want to hear

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it,

[Unknown]: right right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and literally you watch people's shoulders

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: literally go.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It's shocking,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but not doing that. you know. I mean the idea of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: doing that, I've said to some investigators. And

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what? what? No, No, No, yeah, yeah, let them

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: interrupt you.

[Unknown]: people don't want to give up power though

[Unknown]: yeah i haven't seen it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah, I mean I will say that you know by Enlg, the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the population of folks, and either're about a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: hundred and seventy in the study total.

[Unknown]: know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I mean that, which is considerable, um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: uh, about a hundred. I'm sorry, I been hundred and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ninety. There was a hundred and seventeen in the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: internal workplace investigator Um group, So it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was. it was considerable, Um, that that they by

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and large believe that they were doing good that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they were trying to help. That they saw themselves

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: as as trying to be helpful. They didn't see

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: themselves as as management shills. Um, you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that they wanted to to find what the facts are.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: The problem is is that that's a very biased

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: statement. Is you know? what's a fact? I, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know, like I, I, the word fair makes me crazy. I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: hate the word fair. every time hear the word ver.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I like vomit in my mouth. I'm like. What is fair

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Mean. What does it mean to you versus what it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: means to me? I can tell you in in the written

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: House case that I'm sure that Co ridhous thought

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the outcome was fair? I can tell you that that you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know the failies of the folks that that that were

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: killed, um, uh, didn't think that that was a fair

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: outcome,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So fear is subjective. It means nothing, Um, facts

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: are also subjective at times, um. You know, and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and you know how those facts are treated, Um, are

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: are is

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: very subjective. How much weight I gave Certain

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: pieces of evidence is very subjective and it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: very much. There's not a science. To this. there's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an art. Um. People tried to to create formulas.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they try to create forms. they try to. You know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they do everything in their power to try to come

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: up with something. And the fact of the matter is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is very much an art. Um.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And and

[Unknown]: that's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you have to know sort of all the components that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: are going into that art project, You have to know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know all the things that you're bringing to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the table. And

[Unknown]: you wear what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: if you aren't aware of that what you bring to the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: table,

[Unknown]: you're gonna sw

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're going to screw it up. You're going to get

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it wrong. And um, you know when it's something

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really basic, like I had a case once where someone

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shoved another person

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: That was pretty straightforward. Okay, um, but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when it comes down to something like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, an investigation into what's called non

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: protectted class stuff,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: where, Um. it's not based on race or sex or or

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: religion or anything like that. Um. and you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you've got a

[Unknown]: pretty

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: supervisor that's bullying another. Uh, a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: subordinate, Um, and you're trying

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to figure out

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know. did this actually happen? Um. What

[Unknown]: like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I can tell you is that the study showed that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigators believe that people in those cases

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: contributed to their own bullying

[Unknown]: white

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: by a majority. Um. And so

[Unknown]: they have

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they have an implicit bias there, um toward

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: management. Um. And so in those cases you know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I'm trying to figure out you know what what did

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that person do and was it targeted

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And you know sometimes what I would hear from

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: folks is well, you know, did. How is everybody

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: else being treated that way? And it was the wrong

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: question for

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people to ask. Because of course, not if they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: weren't being treated that way, They didn't you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know they weren't experiencing it? Because these

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: types of bullying situations in the workplace

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: are very targeted, very personal. They will pick

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: things that look innocuious and and um, they will.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they will. They will target that person in a way

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that makes it look

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to the average person like nothing

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like. I don't know why you're getting so bothered

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: by that. Um, you

[Unknown]: know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know one situation involved, you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a an employee who had applied for a job. Now the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: supervisor knew that, and

[Unknown]: uh

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and the supervisor was harassing that person.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and uh, but they had applied for a job, and then

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: at a meeting at a later date, the supervisor said

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in front of everybody. Uh, when they introduced

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the person who ▁ultimately did get the job, which

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was not the employee that was beingrassed, Uh, we,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: we hire

[Unknown]: i do

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the only very best people for this job.

[Unknown]: well i don't wanna read

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Well, the person who is sitting there who had

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: applied for the job, you know, was tearful

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and very much hurt by it.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Everybody else didn't understand. Why would that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: be a problem for her to say that,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So you know, it's very targeted. In fact, there's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an article called Corporate psychopath Who they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: try to figure out. They did a study trying to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: figure out what causes this. Why do supervisors

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: behave the way they do? and really they don't have

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an answer for it And know it

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: goes back to power and control. When you have

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: power and control, you abuse it.

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: But why do you abuse it And that's not clear?

[Unknown]: yeah yeah yeah you get into some very deep philosophical questions there about the

[Unknown]: human nature yeah

[Unknown]: yeah it reminds me and cs lewis talks about this in uh screwtape letters and i

[Unknown]: really

[Unknown]: fortunately i read that at a young age and it's always helped with things like

[Unknown]: uh these kind of hidden this kind of hidden harassment right uh i think everyone

[Unknown]: can understand what you're talking about whether it's corporate or not in terms of

[Unknown]: family right the things that like i mean the example he uses um someone can ask

[Unknown]: what's for dinner or what time is dinner and to anyone else like if you just read

[Unknown]: those words on a page it doesn't mean a thing but at that time and place it's

[Unknown]: basically a slap in the face right it just speaks volumes uh based on tons of

[Unknown]: history right that no one else is privy to

[Unknown]: about your questioning their competence or your you're like oh man you know it's

[Unknown]: like oh it's oh it's tuna salad and there's so many

[Unknown]: there's so many uh variations in tone that matter so much there

[Unknown]: even as you said and i would love for you to give some examples when you say

[Unknown]: subjective facts

[Unknown]: what would be a good example of that and i mean the one that you even said it's a

[Unknown]: simple case but like most people would say well he shoved him and that's a fact but

[Unknown]: what constitutes a shove can be pretty

[Unknown]: you know what i mean like that could be of like there there's there's a boyfriend

[Unknown]: girlfriend you know like the girlfriend you know shoves playfully right and is that

[Unknown]: like g

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: right?

[Unknown]: so uh what would what can you give an an example of a subjective fact so that you

[Unknown]: can

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Sure, I mean you know somebody who says something.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, you know, Uh, you know. I'm going to slap you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: if you keep doing that. Yeah, that's a fact. It's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: subjective though, because what did it mean? Um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know what did it? What did it mean by that?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Did

[Unknown]: okay

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you really mean you were going to slap them or did

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you do you just kidding around?

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And so there's a subjective component to it where

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you have to keep digging for more information to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: figure out what that is? And in a lot of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizations they've adopted these Um. No

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: tolerance policies and they, they turn the world

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: upside down. In those situations, you know I, I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: had an office, Ma, and I love him dearly. I really

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: do. um, but at at one point he would sit behind me

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and he had a clliicky pen and he click, click,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: click, And that's like the bane of my existence

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like you know, like if people want tor me, they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: probably call me on the phone and just press the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: clicky pen over and over again. Is that little

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: noise stuff

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: makes me crazy? and uh, it's just enough to just

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: set me off. and um, and you know I, I was very

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mindful because we both investigators to not turn

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: around and say If you keep doing that, I'm going

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to kill you. Okay And, but if I had said it to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: him, he would have thought it was funny,

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but if somebody had heard it, it would have been

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a. I would been charged with a violation of policy

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: because the the policy had no tolerance for words.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. The policy, however, did have a an intent

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mechanism for uh. our intent requirement for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: physical action, which made no sense to me

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: whatsoever was so backwards. Um,

[Unknown]: that's confusing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when you talk about

[Unknown]: sorry

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it was so backward. Like it any? No, that I had no

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: idea who wrote it. I was like. No, Is this my job

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to follow it? Okay, Um, And and there's certain

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: things where you just like you can only have so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: many fights over things. It like. Okay. this is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: not what I can

[Unknown]: bye

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: find about today. Um. But the?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: find about today. Um. But the?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the? The thing about a shove. You're right. So you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know somebody comes up behind you and and out of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: nowhere pushes you knocking you over. Um, you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to me that's that's not subjective because it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: not reasonable.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: No reasonable. You go to that reasonable person

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: standard, knowing all of the facts you know. like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the omnisent narrator, Narrator. What? What you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know? What happened here? The person got into an

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: argument with someone else. They came out and then

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that person was walking and then the second person

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shoved them.

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay. there was no r. rational basis for shoving

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: somebody. Um, you know, in a work environment you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know, if this was a elementary school school yard,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you might be playing around

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and it might be a little bit different, So it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: subjective. It's

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: subjective based on context,

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um,

[Unknown]: so it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but I do. yeah. go ahead.

[Unknown]: i was just gonna ask um could you uh

[Unknown]: because i don't i don't mind using subjective facts would another way be talk about

[Unknown]: it would be in terms of like facts and interpretations that are like necessary

[Unknown]: interpretations

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah. I, you know. there's

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yeah. I, I think that there's always somej

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: subjectivity in it. I think that you know what you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: call something. Is it a hit? Is it a shove? Is it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a punch?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, you know, is it a tap?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Uh, you know, all of those things can in fact be

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the same thing? It's subjective based on the word

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you use,

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: right, Um, it was there was some conduct There

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was. There was a something coming in contact with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: something else. But what? what was it?

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know? And what did it mean and words matter.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So what word was used to

[Unknown]: white

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: describe that is subjective. Yet we treat

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that as a fact. right. So

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: N. Mike St. shoved Steve.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Mike tapped Steve. Mike punched Steve. All of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: those are the same physical action.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay, but but you know what? What did it?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: What? What? What that word is

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: has connotation to it And so Yes, it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: interpretation, but it's also it's. It's it's It's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: also uh, subjective in the sense that that you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know it's a synonym. These are all synonyms for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the same thing,

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: right. Um, you know, and uh, and then and then you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have to look at the greater context of how did it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: happen.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know they were sitting at lunch, and when

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: somebody said something to someone else, he tapped

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: him,

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: he slapped him,

[Unknown]: yep yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: he punched him in the shoulder. All of those

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: things might be completely acceptable in that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: relationship, Um. because they know each other

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really well and worked together for a long time,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and that something goes on all the time. You know.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they're always bunching each other in their

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shoulder. Um. And and yet you know, if you were to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: take it out of

[Unknown]: s

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: context, that would be a violation of a policy,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Potentially,

[Unknown]: hm

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: depending on how the policy is

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: written and policies are written badly.

[Unknown]: yes

[Unknown]: policies are written and i'm going to go out and a limb here and i'm curious to

[Unknown]: hear your response to this would you say policies are generally written more to

[Unknown]: protect the company than to actually enforce right standards

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It depends on where you are and what kind type of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: company. No,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really, it depends on what type of company you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: work for. Um, you know like I, in companies where

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the the the policy is written by a group of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people. So words written by a like a committee.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like, like, let's say at a university

[Unknown]: he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: or college. Uh, where you have like a mixture of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people. Um, Typically, that's sort of how a camel

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: happens. Like you've got a group of people that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't have any knowledge about how to write a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: policy.

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know. there's a history professors, philophy

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: profsor, there's not history professor. There's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know somebody works. you know

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Ingnitorial. There's all these people come

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: together. Rate a policy and they don't know how to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: do it, And then it comes to me and I have to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: interpret it and I'm like, Where are the elements?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: How do I figure this out And and how do I enforce

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this? This sounds really aspirational, as opposed

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to you know people who actually know how to write

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: policies. So you know folks who have at least some

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: training and how to do that, Um, understand that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're looking for some sort of objective test.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Some objective elements in there,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. And, and you know the example that gave you of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: things being backwards That came from university.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I was just like this makes no sense whatsoever. I.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I don't know how. Okay. fine, I gotta find intent

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when somebody hits someone. but when someone says

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: words, no intent. All right right. I don't know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how I'm going to deal with this.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, And and and people, what happens is. then,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: then these units that are that are doing these

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigations. They come up with ways around it,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so they create these sort of internal rules about.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Well, we're goingnna look at the context of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: words,

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: even though the policy doesn't say that.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it doesn't say you can't do that.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So we're go to look at the context of the words to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: read in intent, so that way we can get around the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the. What is an absurd outcome,

[Unknown]: bright

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: But that then applies here, but it doesn't apply

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in that situation and you know, and that's where

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the social dissability factor comes in, because

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know. Hey, look over here. this person's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really valuable,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so we don't want to make a finding against them.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and there you know. sometimes it'll be overt.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Organizations will be really overt about

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it. Sometimes organizations will be um less overt

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: about it. They will do it in sort of subtle ways.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they will. Um, you know they'll They'll make

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: comments. you know that will either be supportive

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of that of that. Let's say you know. Oh yeah, I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: think it's going to be a fighting and they'll go

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: good all right next, and then move on to the next

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: one. and and as opposed to sometimes what they'll

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: say is we can't make a finding against George. We

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: can't for, can't got to in the football game can

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: make a fighting against George. And and so you,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you can't do that. And and there's incredible

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: pressure placed on these investigators, Um to the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: point where I, in some of my interviews where

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people talked about circumstances where they had

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to go above, heads above, head above, head above,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: head to to say, were we are going to make the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: finding whether you want us to or not, and then

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you can decide how you want to deal with it.

[Unknown]: hey

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And there's subjectivity in how is it even going

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to be investigated.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Is there any you know? Ah, that doesn't sound like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: An. and Ah, let's toss that back now. That's not.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: we're not going to move forward with that,

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: or people will sit down and meet with a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: complainant and they'll say, Are you sure you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really want to move forward with this?

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And that type of behavior is is is again. It's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's It's social desirability. Do you stand up and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: want to enforce your rights or do you lean in the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: direction of not wanting to look like you are a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: problem And that comes down to something I'm very

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: passionate about, which is Um. I think

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizations should, uh, they should herald and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: respect and value the employee that speaks up.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Stop calling them the problem.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: They are telling you there's a problem in your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organization, so go fix it. They could sit

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: silently and just let this thing hit you in the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: face at some point if you want, but they're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: willing to stand up

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and organizations don't do that. What they do is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they create these cultures and environments where

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people are afraid to speak and they're afraid to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: talk. And then you know the legal profession has

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: done a tremendous job on this one, which is that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: at employees that have

[Unknown]: one

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: brought lawsuits, what they'll do is they will

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: require the employee to resign as a condition of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: settling the lawsuit. And Um, And so then that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: person's out of a job. They've got a settlement.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but they're out of a job. And so we get that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: person outity here, instead of treating them like.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Hey, you know, there's a great movie called Catch

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: me if you can,

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And, and it's one of my favorites. Uh, for a lot

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of reasons, Um,

[Unknown]: but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but at the end of the movies, Oh, for for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: listeners they don't know it. it's it's this guy

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: who basically is a fraudster and he is able to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: transform himself into anything. He can be airline

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: pilot. He can be a, um, a, um, a

[Unknown]: not so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: doctor. A. anything. you name it a banker, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: name it,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and um. he. It's based

[Unknown]: based on a true story

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: on a very true story. Yes, and what happens is Uh,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: f. P. I, agent Tra chases this guy and chases this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: guy and chases this guy. Finally catches him and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know they, they put him put him in jail and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: he's sitting there and

[Unknown]: i know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: he's like he realizes At some point he's like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: maybe this guy could help us out with this this,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: um, uh, uh, with the counterfeit stuff Because he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was counterfeiting everything. he knew

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how to counterfeit everything. So they bring him

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: into the office and they said, Can you tell us if

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this is counterfeit or not? He's like. let me look

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: at

[Unknown]: i don't know what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it. Oh yeah. Oh, you know this total counterfeit.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Let me tell you how they did it. And so what they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: did was they realize this guy

[Unknown]: watch

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: could actually be an asset because he was just so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: good at doing it and

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they had evaded. He had invaded for so long that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they brought him in. Said you're an asset. Why

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: wouldn't in an organization when an employee says

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there

[Unknown]: a problem

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is a problem over here and I'm telling you about

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it? Okay and I'm willing to stand up and say

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: something to you.

[Unknown]: why

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Why does the organization want to get rid of that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Why does the organization want to get rid of that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: person? Instead of saying, Wait a minute. There's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: person? Instead of saying, Wait a minute. There's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: some value to this person. They could probably

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: some value to this person. They could probably

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: help us fix this.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: help us fix this.

[Unknown]: so yeah i mean

[Unknown]: yeah

[Unknown]: yeah the interesting thing and i have found this to be true it kind of goes hand in

[Unknown]: hand you know and feel free to disagree i feel like it goes hand in hand with

[Unknown]: people who are more concerned about the eight to five and the lack of purpose in

[Unknown]: their job

[Unknown]: and so it's much easier to sweep real problems under the rug

[Unknown]: and then allowed to be someone else's problem after they retire or if they can

[Unknown]: hopefully just let it go away then actually like maintain excellence in their

[Unknown]: organization you feel like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I.

[Unknown]: there's a connection there

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I, Yeah, I think that there's what happens. I, I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: think what happens in organizations. And and this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is this is. This is sort of a fascinating

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: conversation. Isn' that Um

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizations they recruit for diversity right?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and they' recruit for not just diversity and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: person, but in thought. And but then, once you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: join the organization you're expected to shed that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: diversity and melt down into this melting pot and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: become part of their culture and adopt their views

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and adopt their their belief structures, and and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and accept what they accept. And that's the first

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mistake. Um, If if you're recruiting for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: diversity, it's because you want diverse thought

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and you know

[Unknown]: which

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: experience, and so, Um, you know to it. It's when

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: when you step up and and say something that's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that's uh.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know that's against the family. It's sort of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like the mob. You know. it's you.

[Unknown]: yep

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You spoke out against the family. Um. And and so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: we have to, you know, we have to get rid of you.

[Unknown]: so like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. But I think that what happens in these

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizations, is it? It's an Os versus them

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mentality,

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So everybody has adopted this sort of sideborg

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mentality, And when somebody wakes up and go wait

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a minute. hold a second. I'm partard of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Matrix. I'm mixing my television

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shows and movies. Here is my Star Trek and my

[Unknown]: yes quite a bit but i'm good

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Matrix, But it makes sense.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: It makes sense. They wake up in the Go in a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: minute. I'm part of this. What? what? Hold on? I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: took the wrong pill. Hold on. And And And And and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so the rest of the organization says.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: What are you talking about? No, we aren't doing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that. And and they tamp it down. Um, and

[Unknown]: so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so, even even the slightest bit of it. And that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: then sends a message to other people, who may in

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: fact be waking up. They see it, and they don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: want to have that experience. So they shut

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: up. Um, and they don't say anything. The other

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: problem is that at the very top of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organization, I have no doubt that there are

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people who have good intentions and I say this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: just generally okay. they have good intentions.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have these ideas, they're idea

[Unknown]: he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: makers, right they? that's their job. They're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: visionaries,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and then they give that information to other

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people to sort of design and and carry that out,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And then it gets delegated to other people and it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: gets

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: delegated to other people. It's like the game, A

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: telephone. They're leaving out details. There's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: implicit bias, there's there's agendas. There's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: all sorts of things are direct byas that happens

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and so what happens is. By the time that this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: message at the very top gets down to the people at

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the bottom, it's so diluted and so massacred that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it it. it ends up being just wrong,

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and that's what we end up with. You know, um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: A, and then there are hierarchies and there are

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, feetoms and you know certain people

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't want to be told to do by other people, And

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: just there's this stuff that goes on and it's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: really a cultural problem, And then I see

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizations saying well, we need to fix our

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: culture. Yep, you do. but you actually can't do it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: by going about fixing your culture. You have to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: your. your culture is sort of the result of things

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that are going on and you have to fix the things

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that are going on if you want to have a better

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: result.

[Unknown]: you mean you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: That makes sense.

[Unknown]: can't just get a you can't just get like a ping pong table and it just makes

[Unknown]: everything better no okay

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: No, No, and you can't create glassy marketing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: materials That say that you're fixing your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: culture. You can't to say you're fixing your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: culture. You have to actually try to figure out

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: why this is happening like truthfully why

[Unknown]: yes yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this is happening and then what you have to do

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is is is fix those individual things Iss. one of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the reasons why I liked Clark and s. t's um gap

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: analysis so much is that you can literally use it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: on everything like it for your listeners. Like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: literally, you can use it for everything.

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So it's the issue is knowledge, motivation and and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organizational factors. So when

[Unknown]: my husband i what i want

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: my husband Okay doesn't do what I want him to do,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I'm trying to figure out. Does he not know what it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that I want him to do? Does you not know how it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: is? Is he not motivated to do it? Is there

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: something impeding him? Theres? there's some sort

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of self efficacy issue There is there is. Is he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: uh? is there an organizational factor? Do we not

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have the tools and the the things needed to do the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thing that I asked you to do? literally? you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: he. He practiced

[Unknown]: well

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: law for a while, too. So you have two lawyers and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: then somebody who has this doctorate, an

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: organization change. And so I bring these tolls to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: bear and arguments about. Well, why didn't you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: take the Christmas tree down? Did you not know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that I wanted to? I know you know how to do it.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You've done it in the past, and literally we

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: discovered

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that the the organizational factor was that the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: handle broke off of the. The. The where the

[Unknown]: what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: garage is. We. We live in a you know and everybody

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in ▁l a lives you knowless. you really rich, lives

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in a uh, in a rental. And so if somebody broke the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the handle off the garage that is shared with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: another unit, and um, and so he couldn't get in So

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there was an organizational factor impedating his

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: ability to do what he needed to do Sunday,

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and I was like, Okay, Well, have you done anything

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to fix that?

[Unknown]: yes yeah yeah yeah it's so funny because i so i live in a multi generational house

[Unknown]: with my parents and and my wife and my two kids and all the adults at one point

[Unknown]: were part of a student life department and received counseling training and so

[Unknown]: family meetings

[Unknown]: we don't ever say how does that make you feel but

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: it's all variation

[Unknown]: until i can tell my dad's just getting impatient and he's just like okay like what

[Unknown]: how can we actually fix this but oh man that i that good

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I do that. we. we debate we, we'll argue with each

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: other, and and it' be press examination.

[Unknown]: yes yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: So let me see if I understand you

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: correctly. Are you? s? did you? and and we? we'

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Will you know? it'll become you know. Sort of this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: double cross examination? It's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: hilarious. Um, yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: oh bed

[Unknown]: that's that's so funny we are coming close to time i want to be respectful of your

[Unknown]: time so as we wrap up here if you don't mind one question that really stuck out to

[Unknown]: me and i think it will be really helpful for our listeners kind of a dual question

[Unknown]: a follow up application question where does implicit bias hide where are the kind

[Unknown]: of clear places where it hides and what are the best ways to handle that both as

[Unknown]: the person who is being biased against and as the person who has that bias

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sure and an investigation context, Um, it or

[Unknown]: if you can make it the univ if you can make it general that's great if you want to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: generally

[Unknown]: use

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sure,

[Unknown]: examples from workplace i'm sure lots of people can use that information

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: okay, Um, Well, I will tell you that it. It hides

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in in, uh, your feelings about doing something. So

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: for example, in the study, Uh, I asked how you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how how how likely were to sort of like or or how

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: comfortable you were with doing certain types of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: investigations.

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and so you know, and I used, sort of laid

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: those out into the categories. So if there's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: something that you have to do,

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and or there's a task that you have to do, and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're not doing it.

[Unknown]: well

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, y, there may be, you may have an implicit bias

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: against doing it for some reason, and that may be

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: with driving a procrastination,

[Unknown]: he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: or it may be driving how you feel about the thing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that you're doing. So if if in an investigation

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: context, if you are, you know if you don't like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: doing sexual harassment cases, you are

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: automatically turned off by the idea of doing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: them, you're probably going to be biased against

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the outcome of of it being true. Uh, so you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: going to be biased against what the person who is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: reporting is telling you, because you don't want

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to do it anyway. Um, and so that applies across

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the board with anything that you do with any task

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that you have to do. Um, how you

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: feel about the task is important and people

[Unknown]: okay

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't are not mindful. Mindfulness is a great big

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thing right now. And and it's it's

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a. It's an important thing to understand Because

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how you feel in a given moment really does impact

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an outcome.

[Unknown]: hm so being self aware about both when you're procrastinating is important but also

[Unknown]: when you find yourself not following through on details right like you like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yes,

[Unknown]: you you just like gloss over stuff because you just wanna get it over with

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yes,

[Unknown]: yeah yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: yeah, that's

[Unknown]: i could definitely see

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that's that's you know you. There's a reason why

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you don't want to do it. Why don't you want to do

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it? I don't all I want to do. Why don't you want

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to do what' your feeling about

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it? And you really got to figure out what that is?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, you know, for a lot of folks you know they

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't some people. you know. it's a feeling of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: failure. I. I. I feel

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like I'm going to fail it doing it. So why would I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: start it in the first place? I don't want to get

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to do it. I't do it at all. I don't even start. I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't think about it. and so it gets pushed aside.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, you know I don't want to discover what I'm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: going discover when I look there. you know, I got

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to go through the closet and I

[Unknown]: you made me

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: got to clean out the closet. I don't want to see

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what's there, you know, and I don't know what I've

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: tossed in there. Um, and and I'm probably going to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: find stuff that I don't want to see, and I don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know I don't want to deal with. I mean it, it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: can literally apply to anything.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. but but it's implicit bias that's at play and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it it is. You know. it's a. It's a feeling that is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: driving your actions based on on on neuroscience.

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. And and so it comes down to just the most

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: basic stuff.

[Unknown]: yes so uh so for instance if you find yourself procrastinating on something if you

[Unknown]: find yourself glossing over and wanting to finish things without doing it correctly

[Unknown]: um would an appropriate response be like to do a history check in your own story

[Unknown]: to find if there's a connection with a past event

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah, I think that that it makes sense to. the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: first thing is to just stop and

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: figure out you know. don't continue doing it. Stop

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: recognizes a problem. Identify that you know you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have an issue. Take a break from it

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and sit and and think about. you know what?

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Why? The the question? why is great? It's it's you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know. So why am I doing this? Okay? Well, Why that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and why? that? and why? that? and continue to move

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: backward with the word. why? Uh, Simon, Simonac,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: has this. Has this? You know? what's your? why?

[Unknown]: yes yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um? If if you don't know youre why you? you, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: better know you. Why?

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay? and so, Um, If if you, if your listeners

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: haven't haven't heard of him or read any of the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: stuff, they should I. you's got some really

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: accessible stuff on youube, Um, some of the most

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: powerful uh talks I've ever seen, Um. but you need

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to know your why and um. And so that's a good way

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to to think about those issues. So if you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: glossing stuff over and you're realizing you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: missing details or or you suspect you know Y, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: feel yourself doing that, you

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: feel yourself rushing or something, Um, then then

[Unknown]: so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: stop.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: why am I doing this? Am I hungry?

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Am I tired

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and my E like literally. I mean, it sounds silly

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and basic, but at the same time is why am I doing

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this

[Unknown]: hey

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And you know, and do I do? I? Okay, I don't like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the person I'm writing it for.

[Unknown]: i don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I don't like the fact that that I have to write in

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the first place. Why don't I like the fact that I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: have to do it in the first place

[Unknown]: so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: You know. Really work yourself back to so that you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: can understand the wise, And once you figure out

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the wise, then you can figure out what to do about

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know. Sometimes it's a frame shift. Sometimes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it's changing the way you think about it, which is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that you know if I do this, then what are the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: positive things that can stem from it?

[Unknown]: he

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um. I think that we are generally I. I make a

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: guess I haven't done the study on this, but I make

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a guess that we are generally gap analysis

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thinkers. we are, We are people who think in the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: negative.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: We don't think about positive. And you know I, I'm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: not a P. positive all the time person. I'm

[Unknown]: that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: very much a gap person. I always think about what

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the problem is because I'm from silver, but um,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: there's my husband Is not a problem, Solr, he is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: very much a a. a. uh, you know everything. a worko

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sort of thing. Um, so it works nicely that way,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, but um it. when I go down the railroad trucks,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: he he says you' come back

[Unknown]: yeah yeah yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: up here, Um. it. everything's not going to be bad.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and

[Unknown]: this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: so, but thinking about, you know, what are some

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: positive benefits that can stem from me doing this

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: well if I clean up the closet. Hey, I can go

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shopping,

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: or you know, Hey, you know if I clean up the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: closet that won't be hanging over my head

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and I can get something else done and I can

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: actually really enjoy watching the football game

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: because it won't be hanging over my head. Um, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know, I, maybe I can turn it into a fun activity

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: with my kids or with my spouse or with my, you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know, my neighbor, or whatever. Um, you know,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: maybe I can donate some things to charities that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that might need them. Um, you know you start to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: try to reframe why you're doing something and and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: then it changes your your willingness to do it.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and you know, but again it comes down to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: awareness, so you have to

[Unknown]: m

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: be aware that that's what you're doing Like you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're rushing through something, or you're

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: glossing it over. You're avoiding it. Um excuses,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: excuses are my favorite. Um, you know, what are

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the excuses that you put in place? That that for

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: why you're not doing something,

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, people can justify anything.

[Unknown]: oh they can yeah i mean uh

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: as a as a parent to a four and six year old it's much more apparent and easy right

[Unknown]: to look at that and be like oh that's excuse is silly then when you're around it

[Unknown]: enough and then you hang out with adults and you're like oh

[Unknown]: it doesn't go away

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and there's truth to it

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like there's just truth to it. You know the reason

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: why they want to do something you know. I mean I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: love. you know, little kids in the bathtub like I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: don't want to take a bath. I don't you want to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: take back. I don't wa to a bath. Why don't you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: want to take a bath? I don' want to take a bath.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay, w, w. what are you afraid of? You know?

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Oh, the water going down the drain. They think

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: they're going to go down the drain, you know.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Really little kids get really afraid.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: They don't want that and say Okay, Well, let's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: see, see how big you are. See

[Unknown]: yes

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: how big that is. That's not going to happen. you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: know.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And and and sometimes it takes you know some

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: education

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: to change the way someone's thinking.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Sometimes you know it takes perspective. taking

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like what you know, what's the perspective and and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: trying to to reshape that. But in in taking that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: basic example in the adult context,

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I think that in work places in relationships and

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: in social situations,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: people fail to recognize

[Unknown]: uh

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the perspective of others.

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and I've seen that a lot lately. I mean. I. I,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know, Look if you don't want to get the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: vaccine, stay home is put my personal belief. but,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but, but you know, I need you to take the vaccine

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: 'cause I don't want to get sick, A, or at least I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: want to get seriously

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: sick. Um, ispect your perspective, but if your

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: perspective is based on the fact that you think

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that you have a a computer chip that's goingnna be

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: injected into, we need to have you take a look at

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: what a syringe looks like and understand that that

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: syringe doesn't actually is incapable of doing

[Unknown]: you're right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that. You know. I mean like there's just stuff

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that makes no sense.

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And, but yet I respect your perspective.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: but let me tell you how that perspective needs to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: shift

[Unknown]: right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and here's some ways of doing it.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, you know, I just think that that we need to,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you know we. I'm not a big. you know, hey we, we.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: we aren't divided. We shouldn't be. we shouldn't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: be divided. sort of thing. we've always been

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: divided. Um, it's part of our history. It's it's

[Unknown]: yeah yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: why you know we were divided against the king.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: That's why we overthrew 'em. Um, at least in in on

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: continent, Um, it is a matter of of understanding

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: a perspective,

[Unknown]: i see

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and at least just appreciating it for what it is,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you can disagree with it, but at least listen to

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: it

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and and then try to work with people to change

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that perspective. Um, you know, because I think

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: that one of the things we we don't do is we don't

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: talk enough.

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, and we don't talk.

[Unknown]: and when we do talk we shout

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yes,

[Unknown]: sorry go ahead that's just

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: no, we shout, and

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: we we call each other names.

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: I. I, I saw something recently and this is sort

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of. I know we're getting to the end here, but I,

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: this one drove me crazy. I saw a video on some. We

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: were talking before the show about realels,

[Unknown]: hm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: and how like you can become like you know, sort of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: uh, paralyzed by watching these things, you

[Unknown]: absolutely

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: just sit them. watch them for hours. Um. But there

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: was uh, someone who was screaming at is so clearly

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: an anti mass antibxer who is screaming on the

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: street in New York, and people saying that if

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're wearing a mask, you're either ugly or

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you're into sex trafficking.

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: And and I was like

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Okay, I'll be ugly. I'm happy to be ugly. It's

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: fine. I'm ugly. And and and I, you know I, this is

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: very political. But if you know I'm I, you know

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: the g. o, P. I think wants me to be a sexlave

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: anyway. So if if if you think that that's what I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: am by wearing a mask, I'm good, but at least I'm

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: living. I'm a lif. Okay And and you know, but I

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: mean people screaming at each

[Unknown]: right right

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: other like this. It's just insane and

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: just like, Why do you not have a job to go to?

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Like? Why are you

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: like

[Unknown]: w

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: you got time for this?

[Unknown]: yeah

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Um, it's just you know, we've become a country of

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: of insulting people has become okay.

[Unknown]: yeah yeah absolutely and i i think there needs to be that common respect

[Unknown]: for human dignity

[Unknown]: it's just so important for these discussions that like the other person is still a

[Unknown]: human being no matter what they believe right and that's so it's so important

[Unknown]: so i i love ending on that note and i love

[Unknown]: you know even as we talk about implicit bias like the importance of

[Unknown]: relying on

[Unknown]: empathy and and looking at the other person's perspective is so important and just

[Unknown]: that self awareness that we do make mistakes so thank you so

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: Yes,

[Unknown]: much for coming on i really appreciate it it's been a real joy

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: thank you very much for having me. It was from

[dr__tracy_a__pearson__j_d____dr__tracy__]: being here.