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The Dreamfuel Show is a research expedition to uncover and unpack the mindsets of impactful tech founders and executives. On this show, we’re going to get real and talk about what was actually going on in their hearts and minds during the harrowing journeys that forged them and their companies! We’ll also speak with performance experts who will share the latest tips, tools, and tricks that can help us realize our own dreams, too.
As we like to say at Dreamfuel, every quarter is a hero’s journey. So be sure to hit follow to join us along the way.
Dan Hershberg [00:00:00]:
I've been very selfish professionally by choosing to run my own businesses for 16 years and they've supported my lifestyle. But like, I'm not. Not retiring tomorrow, so at some point I'd have to make a decision. Is my value to my family, is it worth more making more money in a different lifestyle? That doesn't quite satisfy me professionally.
Kevin Bailey [00:00:19]:
I'm Kevin Bailey, CEO of Dreamfuel, and this show honors founders who are stepping through fire on their quests to realize their dreams. We dive into their failures and successes and the mental performance skills they're using to achieve their goals in less time and with less frustration. Enjoy the Dream Fuel Show. Welcome to the Dream Fuel show, everyone.
Kevin Bailey [00:00:43]:
I'm really excited for this episode. I'm here with Dan Hershberg. Dan is the founder and CEO of the Amateur Golf Society of America. Amateur Golf Society of America is an amazing platform for founders to do or not founders. Amazing platform for anyone who loves Pulse to do competitive golfing on a flexible schedule. So this platform coordinates golfers all around the country to be able to compete so you're not having to go to like a two day event. It's managed via an online platform and pretty awesome product. Dan has also been the founder of many other businesses.
Kevin Bailey [00:01:13]:
He's founded a brewery. He's founded an apparel company out in Philadelphia. Yeah, just welcome to the show, Dan.
Dan Hershberg [00:01:19]:
Thanks for having me, Kevin. And I should say founders are welcome on the golf tour as well. It can be for everybody, but yeah, founders in particular love to get out on the links with anyone who's got similar background in that respect.
Kevin Bailey [00:01:29]:
Yeah, awesome. We got a lot of founders listening to the show and I know we got a lot of founders who love golf. In fact, when we mental performance founders, that's probably the thing they bring up the most is they're like, I heard this stuff helps with my golf game. Like, yeah, we can work on that a little bit if you want. But yeah, Dan and I just got done as we do on the show, doing some pretty intense somatic breath work. How you feeling?
Dan Hershberg [00:01:46]:
I feel great. First time I've done it, but as I said, definitely a new way to get into a conversation. But I like how I feel and I'm looking forward to sharing some good stuff here.
Kevin Bailey [00:01:53]:
Awesome, man. I know you've been a founder for a long time and I wanted to kind of open up with you. Sharon, a story from experience that you think would be really relevant to founders listening to this. Something that you overcame that maybe was challenging.
Dan Hershberg [00:02:06]:
Yeah, you know, I think one of the things you hear a lot as a founder, whether it's your first business, your tenth business, or anywhere in between, is that the company you keep is really the most important thing in terms of who you found the business with, who funds the business, who are your partners, who are the kind of key stakeholders in the creation of the business. And when I was launching the brewery, I went into business with family. And I just remember hearing horror stories from people over the years about the pitfalls of working with family. And I thought, somewhat naively, that that won't be me. I have a great relationship with this person, and it's someone with whom I have a tight relationship and someone I trust. And the net outcome of that story was that the two of us parted ways prior to the business getting started. And without getting into the granular detail of how and why that was, I think everyone has to look on the inside and say, what did I do to cause this situation? Or how could I have prevented the situation? And thankfully, the end result was nothing traumatic in the sense that my family still sees each other at holidays. We have great conversations.
Dan Hershberg [00:03:00]:
Everyone still has lots of love. But I think, you know, it's really easy to point fingers at others when you hear stories that would never happen to me because I'm X, Y and Z, or I have this experience. And I think the learning lesson that I had that I've tried to share with, you know, any founder at any stage is that don't be immune to those problems, don't be naive to think that they can't happen to you. And really make sure that every decision you're making, especially at the critical, early stage formation of your business, is that you're taking in all of those potential threats into account and that you have a plan to get through those. Should those happen to you. I hope they don't. And I hope many people go into successful businesses with their family, but it doesn't always work out the way you anticipate.
Kevin Bailey [00:03:37]:
Yeah, I've heard this a few times, and I've experienced it even on a friendship level where, you know, it can be a little challenging to found a company with close friends of yours. What do you think is the strength of founding a company with people maybe you aren't so close to? Why is that optimal?
Dan Hershberg [00:03:52]:
I think challenging assumptions is really probably the biggest one there. And as a founder, part of the reason I've been an entrepreneur now for going on 16 years is that I think there's a healthy degree of selfishness. I think we use the word selfishness sometimes in a consistently negative light. And I'm not saying that, hey, you should do everything that benefits you and you alone. But I think as an entrepreneur, part of the reason founders are successful is because they have an intuition or they have a gut inclination to see something out that others don't, whether it's an opportunity, a correction to something that's existing in a market, or just a passion that they care more deeply about than others. And I think trusting that gut is really important. But there needs to be guardrails. And I think when you live in a vacuum, whether it's with people you're close to or your own head, it's oftentimes a lot harder to process outside information, especially if it's coming from people close to you.
Dan Hershberg [00:04:40]:
So having a kind of unbiased third party, maybe even someone who's not a stakeholder in that business or someone who came from the outside with, again, the sole intention of I want this business to be successful, I think can help level set what you have in your mind. And it doesn't mean you go off that path entirely, but it means you might make compromises or maybe approach things from a slightly different perspective in order to obtain the same end result.
Kevin Bailey [00:05:01]:
Okay, so maybe kind of with a third party, so to speak, or an arm's length partnership, it's a little more, no bullshit. You're not maybe taking into consideration each other's egos so much, you have less maybe need for approval from the other person. You're able to show up maybe like you said, a little bit more selfishly, but maybe a little more honestly. Ironically.
Dan Hershberg [00:05:23]:
Yeah, it is a little bit of that weird, ironic scenario, right? I mean, at the end of the day with business, you are trying to make money, you're trying to have a successful business. Now, whether that amount of money is life changing and you're going to be on a yacht in four years, or you want to just have something that you can sit behind for the duration of your professional career. Whatever the outcome is, the goal remains the same. We want a successful business. And oftentimes putting personal relationships or close relationships ahead of what's best for the business is not exactly new insight, but I've lived it and I've seen it happen. And the importance of having that external party or people who aren't close to you before to keep the focus on the business, not what's best for you or for that other individual, makes a lot of sense.
Kevin Bailey [00:06:04]:
I think a lot of founders are idealists and we want to challenge the status Quo and, oh, I can do that. You know, they, they said that doesn't work. But I'm the, I'll be the exception to the rule. But I. Most of us, when we do businesses with friends and family, a lot of us have shared similar stories. So let's, let's talk another keystone experience for you, something really important. Maybe the challenge you. That you had to overcome.
Kevin Bailey [00:06:24]:
Spoken from, from experience.
Dan Hershberg [00:06:26]:
Yeah. I mean, I've run a variety of different types of businesses that have required different funding levels. Some have been bootstrapped, some have been outside investment from friends and family, some has been institutional capital. And I think getting that business from the day that you're sitting on your couch or you're out on a bike ride and the idea pops into your head, taking it from there to viability requires some level of funding. And there have been many times in the funding journeys where I've either had a lack of confidence that I'll be able to make up that delta and get to where I need to, and then there have been other times where I've been overly confident that, you know, sources of funding that I thought were a lock were no longer going to come. And the lesson is not, hey, make sure that you are doing your P's and Q's on your budgets and your revenue models and that you're getting the exact number. Right. Because the reality is that it's going to change.
Dan Hershberg [00:07:16]:
There's not a fixed target in any business. You can do things with different levels of funding. And really where that's helped me learn is the importance of being lean and the importance of understanding that lean doesn't mean, oh, I'll just save a couple bucks here and we'll be fine. It's making really hard decisions and sacrificing something that you want that you think is integral to the business, and you have to cut it in order to get the business to where it needs to get to. We often associate making hard decisions with the very limited kind of external ones that, oh, if we do a bunch of drips and drops, we'll get to where we want to. But that almost never works. You have to make tangible changes to what you're doing in order to get to that end goal. And I've lived that now in 15, 16 years of doing this.
Dan Hershberg [00:07:57]:
And it's, I think it's strengthened my resolve when you do get the invariable no's during the fundraising process, whether that is from your best friend, your parents, or institutional vc.
Kevin Bailey [00:08:08]:
Yeah, wise words. Lean startup is kind of the Startup bible. Any rules of thumb on how to make those decisions, how to run the business? Lean.
Dan Hershberg [00:08:17]:
I think it all just boils down to numbers. I remember when I first got started, I was working my dream job at ESPN after college up in studio production and getting paid to watch sports. And it was literally a dream. I mean, we say dream job. I could not have been more happy to get that role. And it lasted two years. I made almost no money. I worked nights and weekends and holidays and realized this was not the life for me, which is when I pivoted entrepreneurship.
Dan Hershberg [00:08:39]:
But I had no entrepreneurial training. I know I didn't take Econ 101 in college. I didn't have the basic skills required to run a business. And as an idea guy, you know, creative mind, all those things you want to think about, All I could build was like this grand vision, but I didn't have the business plan or the model to support it. And what you learn very quickly from that is it doesn't matter if you don't know what the end goal is. You have to put something on paper. You have to have benchmarks from a financial perspective to understand what the range of outcomes is. And I think from a learning point of view it's really just if you don't have firm numbers in front of you at all times, nothing else matters.
Dan Hershberg [00:09:19]:
You could be successful, you could be a failure, but without having a solid foundation from a numerical, a data financial perspective, your business is not going to be sustainable.
Kevin Bailey [00:09:28]:
A follow on on that. In the same vein, I think as founders we sometimes struggle with prioritization of our own time and that pareto principle. In 80 20, you know, you're getting 80% of the benefit from 20% of what you're doing. Do you think much about your time and how to focus in on what really matters and cut out the other 80%? That's maybe noise.
Dan Hershberg [00:09:47]:
I mean the 8020 principle is like the single most useful principle in life in general and certainly applies very deeply to how we prioritize as founders. I think for me the answer to the question depends on the stage of the business that you're in. I think there are very clear cut priorities at different phases in the life cycle of the startup. You know, in my current venture at Amateur Golf Society, we're in a massive growth phase where all we care about is scaling into new markets. And the way that I prioritize my time, the kind of fly to, you know, a light bulb thing is I want to go and I just want to add as many New markets as possible. Let me just get them. Let me get them, because that's what drives growth. But what I've learned through that is that I need to pay attention to what my members in my current markets are telling me to make sure that whatever I build in my legacy markets that's successful, I can replicate.
Dan Hershberg [00:10:35]:
And whatever I've failed with, I don't bring along. So the focus has to be isolate, stay tight, and then expand out in terms of how you balance those priorities. And then obviously the other component of it is the work life balance.
Kevin Bailey [00:10:49]:
Hey, it's Kevin and I hope you're enjoying the show. I know it's tough out there right now for tech leaders, and we appreciate you taking the time to focus on your mental performance and well being. Speaking of time, did you know that 76% of tech leaders lose 20 or more hours of productivity a week due to stress, fatigue, and feeling overwhelmed? To win these hours back, leaders need to learn the mental performance skills that keep you in the zone, where research shows that executives are five times more productive. And that's where we come in. Dreamfuel's Octane Cohort is our flagship mental performance program built for tech leaders under pressure who want to achieve their most ambitious goals in less time and with less frustration. To learn more, go to Dreamfuel.com octane or just click the link in the description to see if you qualify. All right, back to the show.
Kevin Bailey [00:11:36]:
How do you as a founder, stay sharp, stay recovered, stay in top shape psychologically and physically because it is such a demanding job?
Dan Hershberg [00:11:43]:
Yeah, it really is not easy. And there's no silver bullet to addressing that. I have certain tricks and tips that I use. I mean, I practice yoga four to five times a week. I get on the bike and take a ride. I try to cook whenever I can for myself and my family. And I try to do the things that bring me joy when I have time. Whether that's playing golf recreationally or doing a fantasy football draft of my high school buddies, whatever it is that will fill up the cup, you know, mentality that I try to do those things.
Dan Hershberg [00:12:11]:
The reality is that you can never do as many of them as you would like when you're in charge of your own company and coming to terms with that reality that, hey, I'm building this. I prioritized building this business right at the expense of other things. You can't have everything. I know people say that you should strive to do that and there is a balance that you can achieve that will be good, but it'll never be the ideal. I get everything I want in both camps, so I try to stay physically fit where I can, I try to stay emotionally fit where I can and, you know, spend as much time with my family as they'll want to have me around.
Kevin Bailey [00:12:44]:
Do you have that conversation with yourself sometimes or with your family that, hey, you know, I chose this and it means I can't do all these things? Do you rationalize that to yourself sometimes?
Dan Hershberg [00:12:53]:
Oh, yeah. It's a constant dialogue. My wife has been with me for the overwhelming majority of that 16 year phase, and she's been with me when I was starting the apparel company by hustling parking lots in the South Philadelphia sports complex. You know, coming home with $500 cash and probably a couple too many beers in my stomach. So we've talked about it from day one. What is the end goal? What do you want out of all of this that you're putting the time and energy into? And as long as you continue on that journey and you're heading in the right direction, she'll continue to support it. I think at some point though, you make a decision around what's best for me. It goes back to that, that selfishness that I talked about earlier.
Dan Hershberg [00:13:28]:
I've been, I think, very selfish professionally by choosing to run my own businesses for 16 years and they've supported my lifestyle but not retiring tomorrow. So at some point I'd have to make a decision. Is my value to my family, is it worth more making more money in a different lifestyle that doesn't quite satisfy me professionally or kind of tickle that fancy and in order to give them more of what they need. And thankfully we're not at that inflection point. But if that point does come, my family has borne the brunt of the decisions that I've made, thankfully for the benefit. But at some point that may change and I need to be prepared for that day to come.
Kevin Bailey [00:14:02]:
Yeah, that's real talk. I also have a, you know, a wife and four kids, so I.
Dan Hershberg [00:14:06]:
Four kids.
Kevin Bailey [00:14:07]:
Four. I got one as one right now. It's.
Dan Hershberg [00:14:09]:
Wow, that breath work is quite important for you then, my friend.
Kevin Bailey [00:14:11]:
It is, it is, man. But yeah, I mean, it's a lot of sacrifice. And you're right, I accept and understand that my decision to found a company was a little selfish as it relates to my family, as it relates to my wife. You know, don't have, like when we started out, didn't have the normal stuff, you know, the right kind of insurance plans and all that kind of stuff. She had to make those sacrifices with me or chose to support me in that. So God love our wives and kids who support us.
Dan Hershberg [00:14:35]:
Founders cannot do it without them, that's for sure.
Kevin Bailey [00:14:38]:
No doubt. Well, I want to take a minute here, and since there are a lot of founders who love golf, give you a platform to talk to them about Amateur Golf Society and just talk about how they can get involved.
Dan Hershberg [00:14:47]:
That's awesome. I appreciate the opportunity. I mean, we've been running this concept now for the last four years. First couple of years, I was running the brewery you mentioned previously. And basically the sole idea here is that we want to democratize access to golf, regardless of your skill level. I think a lot of people have taken the game up during the pandemic, and they've realized the value of the game, not just from a competitive perspective, but the benefits of being outside for four to five hours. The benefits of meeting new people and having conversations with folks outside of your immediate network. The golf is a microcosm for life trope is one that's steeped in much fact.
Dan Hershberg [00:15:22]:
You go offline, but you got to get back and get back together. You hit one bad shot, but that does not define you. The next one can be a great one to recover. So I find that golf is a really great vehicle for many benefits from a personal and professional perspective. And we built this business because I saw a need, but also just because I'm very passionate about the game and love being part of it. So Amateur Golf Society is now expanding across the country. We're in two markets currently, but we'll be in looks like 10 or 11 next year. We're in Arizona, Chicago, Philadelphia, Texas, Florida, New York, Maryland, Utah.
Dan Hershberg [00:15:53]:
So we're. We're excited to grow it. The short story is it lets amateurs of all skill levels playing fun and friendly tournaments completely on their schedule. You can play any day or time during the week at the host course. Does not matter what your skill is. There's four net flights for all abilities. So if this type of thing is interesting to you, we'd love to see you. Amateurgolfsociety.com I'm@danmaturegolfsociety.com Always happy to chat.
Dan Hershberg [00:16:15]:
Do something like this with a cold outreach. Just love meeting new people and sharing a little bit more about what we do.
Kevin Bailey [00:16:20]:
Very cool, man. Yeah, especially for us founders of families. I love the flexibility because often, yeah, we can't keep a precise time on an outing.
Dan Hershberg [00:16:28]:
Yeah, you can't. I just think people are forced to choose between so many different things. And I don't think you should be required to give up things that you enjoy because it's so black and white. And the nice thing about our product is that there's no minimum commitment. We have people who join. That's a nominal fee of 75 to 125 bucks a year. You get your handicap index through the local golf association in the region where we play. And if you want to play once, you can play once.
Dan Hershberg [00:16:51]:
If you want to play 30 times, you play 30 times. It's completely up to you. You can meet new people through our player pairing program, get paired up with people with similar interests, abilities, alma mater, employer, history, all that stuff. So it's, it's a really great way to be part of a community without having to dedicate more time than you have available to do so.
Kevin Bailey [00:17:08]:
I love it, man. Yeah, even the networking benefits there. That's very cool. All right, Dan. Well, I really appreciate being on the podcast and appreciate everyone listening. Definitely check out amateur golf side of America and just appreciate you being open and doing the breath work and sharing some helpful pointers.
Dan Hershberg [00:17:24]:
Founders, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate the opportunity.
Kevin Bailey [00:17:29]:
Hey, everyone, Hope you enjoyed The Dreamfuel Show. If you'd like to continue listening to more episodes, subscribe to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be here every other week. And if you want to learn more about Dreamfuel's Octane program for tech leaders, go to dreamfuel.com octane or just click the link in the description.