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Chasta and guest Sara Thames discuss private equity’s growing presence in the dance industry and other everyday services, arguing it is deceptive, accountability-light, and driven by numbers over community needs. They describe how holding companies buy and rapidly scale businesses through regional “roll-ups,” funneling consumer dollars upward, leveraging marketing to appear reputable, and sometimes keeping local branding so families don’t realize common ownership. Chasta recounts posting blogs about childhood being commodified, being uninvited from a conference for “radical” views, backlash and misinformation, and a subsequent town hall conversation. They cite examples of industry consolidation in competitions and related dance services, warn about price increases and homogenization, and encourage parents and studio owners to research ownership, watch for vague titles like “partner” or “founder,” prioritize transparency, and support locally owned programs.
00:00 Marketing Versus Community
01:02 Podcast Intro Private Equity
01:44 First Wake Up Call 2021
03:01 Buyout Emails Flood In
05:01 Private Equity 101
06:44 Monopoly Footprint Strategy
08:55 Childhood As A Line Item
09:33 Too Radical Backlash
14:56 Town Hall And Ensemble
17:56 Roll Ups Explained Varsity
19:10 Dance Competition Consolidation
19:37 Homogenized Dance Ecosystem
20:52 Private Equity Flywheel
22:31 Acquisitions Changing Brands
23:16 Nationals and Resume Stacking
25:08 Spotting Ownership Language
26:19 Showstopper and Rapid Expansion
29:13 Predatory Pitch to Owners
30:56 Parents Paying the Piper
32:00 Standing Strong Locally
34:54 Parent Red Flags Checklist
39:32 Researching Who Owns What
41:18 Support Local Conclusion
Creators and Guests
What is Nobody Listens to Chasta?
What happens when someone says the things everyone else is thinking—but nobody is willing to say out loud?
Nobody Listens to Chasta is a counterculture podcast hosted by entrepreneur, speaker, and author Chasta Hamilton. With humor, candor, and unapologetic honesty, Chasta tackles the uncomfortable topics shaping modern life—from youth sports trophies and toxic achievement culture to entrepreneurship, parenting, grief, addiction, and the pressure to conform.
Drawing from her experience building Stage Door Dance Productions, founding Girls Geared for Greatness, and writing books like Trash the Trophies and Handle the Horrible, Chasta challenges systems that no longer serve us and explores better ways to live, lead, and raise the next generation.
Expect bold conversations, unconventional perspectives, and thoughtful debate designed to inspire healthier, happier, and more intentional lives.
If you've ever questioned the status quo…
you might be someone who actually listens to Chasta.
07 Nobody Listens to Chasta
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Sara: , [00:00:00] they have the resources to do the outreach, to generate the marketing, to get people to buy into their brands.
Chasta: Correct.
Sara: Um, so you as a parent might be seeing brands that are, quote-unquote, reputable because you're seeing what they're offering, and you're seeing their impact on social media and their marketing.
And so you're thinking more exposure equals better reputation. Mm-hmm. Um, when what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, they ultimately are, their priority is not the community It's not the kids at play. It is, it's the numbers.
Chasta: [00:01:00] Hey, everybody. I'm Chasta. This is Nobody Listens to Chasta, and today we are talking about one of my top most controversial topics, private equity.
Sara: Dun, dun, dun.
Chasta: Yep, there's our guest, Sarah, today. She lived through this with me last spring. We are gonna talk about how this became quite the firestorm in my life. We are gonna talk about what private equity is, what it means to dance, what it means for children, and what it means for the world. So, I hope you're ready to get in and buckle up and be ready for the ride, because this is Nobody Listens to Chasta.
Sarah, I'm so happy you're here today.
Sara: Yeah, thank you for having me back.
Chasta: Yeah, thank you for standing by me through this whole private equity conversation.
Sara: Yes, it was quite, quite a time.
Chasta: It was quite a time. It actually started in 2021. Do you remember?
Sara: A while back, yeah, when I- In fact- When I
Chasta: didn't even- Well, I-
understand what private equity was ... obv- obvious- I mean, private equity started way before that. Yes. But my first rodeo was in 2021.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And I guess I was just feeling bored. I was pregnant. [00:02:00] And there was this post, right? Or this whole world of dancing.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And they were like, "Industry in crisis, $40 billion," talking about the dance industry.
And they said, "There's so much money, there's so much opportunity. Let's franchise it all." And I was like, whoa. Yeah. Hey, we have a lot of small businesses here that have been fighting really hard through the pandemic that do not deserve this, and I don't think this is right. Do you remember? I
Sara: do.
Chasta: And it really, there were a lot of feelings.
Sara: There were a lot of feelings, and I think a lot of it was people who had... We were on our computers all the time, 'cause we were in that gray area of not quite back into person 100%, still online, um, and a lot of just people not understanding what was happening.
Chasta: Yeah, and it kind of just felt like that just came and went.
I mean, there were so many comments. Yep. People started jumping in, making phone calls, conversations, which ironically became players in this later part of this conversation. Yes. Um, but it was just kind of a little glimpse into what was to come. Yes. Would you [00:03:00] agree?
Sara: I would agree.
Chasta: Okay. So then fast-forward a little bit.
We're in the post-pandemic era, whatever that means. And we're s- we start getting all these emails at the studio of all of these places wanting to buy.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: All the time.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And at first it's like, "Oh, okay. Like, what does this look like?" And you know, and I did talk to a lot of these firms.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And they just, it just never felt quite right.
Would you agree?
Sara: Yes, and I think part of it, too, is that they're phrased in a way that makes it sound exciting. Like, you're running such a successful business that someone wants to buy it, and you know, it's looking, it looks appealing.
Chasta: Unload the misery.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Live the life you dreamed.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Nothing could be greater than selling to this investment firm.
We actually got two emails just today.
Sara: We did.
Chasta: So it hasn't even slowed down. In fact-
Sara: It has not slowed down
Chasta: at all ... well, it slowed down a little last spring, when like nobody wanted to talk to me about anything. Right. And I started talking about everything, and no one was listening to me. But even this week it's actually revved up with the offers.
It
Sara: [00:04:00] has.
Chasta: And they'll say things like, "Let me go eat at Longleaf Saloon." It's like they put in ChatGPT, like, "Where's a place to eat in Raleigh?"
Sara: Right, or like things that people in Raleigh like to do.
Chasta: Yeah, like they were like, "Don't you want to sell your business and go to the Canes game?" Right. That's what the one today said.
Sara: Yeah,
Chasta: it is. Or what was one of the other bullet points?
Sara: Um,
Chasta: oh, oh, "Don't you want to spend your week just leisurely sitting in traffic on I-440?"
Sara: Right. Like
Chasta: sell your business- Very strange things. Yes. Um, so it's really interesting, their sales pitch. It is. And then once you start having these conversations, it's, it's numbers, numbers, numbers.
That's all they care about. They don't really care about what you do. They want to know the numbers- Yep ... and, and where that kind of matches up, right? Quality, who cares? They just, they want the money. The money, honey. Yes. So, so this is what, I get so jacked up about this topic. Can you tell?
Sara: I, yeah, I know.
, Why don't we just start with an overview of private equity, what it is, and how it's been infiltrating the dance world.
Chasta: Okay. Well, it's a little bit of a wazzy [00:05:00] and a woozy.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Okay? And that's not just for the dance world, that's everything- Everywhere
that is impacted. Mm-hmm. I'm talking your vet, your elder care, your healthcare, your childcare.
Sara: Dentists.
Chasta: Dentists. Um, I've had an amazing conversation with my dentist about this. Um, basically, if it's something you can go to, pizza, burgers, it's, it's out there.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: It is out there like a virus.
Sara: Yes. Hiding in plain sight, I
Chasta: might say.
Hiding, hiding in plain sight- Yep ... because deceptive is the MO.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: So they're sneaky. They're sneaky snakes. And where do we wanna go? Okay, so private equity 101, they're sneaky snakes and they're deceptive.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: All right? And they are all in our neighborhoods.
Sara: Yes, and what are they doing?
Chasta: And basically what they're doing is they are protected firms, holding groups, that swoop in and buy big.
They can run amok, they can do whatever they want, and they can leave with no accountability. Mm-hmm. Because individuals [00:06:00] don't have skin in the game. It's the holding company that's very protected. Right. And this is complicated. I'm not an expert, I'm not a professor on private equity. I just wanna say that straightforward.
But as a small business owner and a mother, because we're gonna talk about how this impacts children- Yeah ... I am very curious, and I stay aware.
Sara: Yes.
, I think the most helpful thing would be, what does this look like? So if we're thinking about it- Yes, okay
within, within the dance industry or within your everyday life, what does it look like to have private equity involved?
Chasta: Right. So they're gonna come in, and they're gonna buy big, and they're gonna buy fast. So they're gonna look for the top markets. Mm. Raleigh is one of the top 40 markets in the country.
They are gonna wanna swoop in and buy as many... It's all about, um, what's the word that they use? Mm. It's not locations, it's not footprints. Basically, when they descri- describe it, it's like hotels in Monopoly.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Like, they are gonna wanna pop as many up around the town as possible because that gives them monopoly control of a region.
Okay. So whether they do this in a city, a state, [00:07:00] across the country, they're gonna wanna build that footprint up. Then they're gonna look at the most successful operational numbers, where they're making the most money by their line items, because all of this money is gonna fuel to the top. And then, once they do that in one particular sect, they're gonna grow the flywheel, right?
And the flywheel could be a multi-industry perspective. So whether that's, say, in dance, for example, that could look like a holding company being involved with studio ownership, competition ownership, software ownership, membership ownership, et cetera, et cetera. The list goes on. So then you're not actually paying individual things.
All of your money's funneling up to these holdings groups. Then, when the entity starts suffering or not doing as much money, they're gonna sell it off. Someone else is gonna buy it. They're gonna try to pump it up for as much money as they can. It goes on life support, they're gonna sell it.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: So it's all about money and numbers.
Sara: Okay. So essentially, you have this big holding company, s- like, parent company-
Chasta: Yes ...
Sara: buying [00:08:00] a bunch of smaller businesses. Um, and then you, as just a n- normal everyday person, could be going to these businesses not knowing that they are owned by the same big company.
Chasta: Yeah, like my vet. 'Cause when this all started, I didn't realize that our vet is owned by, like, a candy bar company.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: I mean, I'm telling you, people, like, you do not know. Like, follow the dollars and see where it goes.
Sara: Yep. And so this is impacting our community. It's impacting-
Chasta: Our, it's, it's impacting our community, it's- Our
Sara: families ...
Chasta: our business. Yep. Us, our families, our industry, right? And that's where I think I really got entangled in this conversation because Last year I was really watching this.
Mm-hmm. I started hyperfo- hyperfocusing on it in 2023. So I've been watching it, and it seemed to be accelerating last year, not just in dance, but across youth [00:09:00] activities. Okay. Like, we're seeing it happen in youth sports. Mm-hmm. We're seeing it happen in education even. We're seeing it happen in so many places that are using children as line items, right?
So I first put out a blog post called Childhood Should Not Be Commodified. Mm-hmm.
Sara: Which
Chasta: I still stand behind. And the next thing I know a few weeks later is I was uninvited to speak at a conference- Okay ... because, um, my views were deemed too radical in regards to private equity.
Sara: Okay. Do you
Chasta: th- I mean, does it very seem really radical to you?
Sara: I, no. Um, I, I don't think that there is an understanding of why, like, so I think, I think where the misconception is, is that people are seeing all of these businesses as individual businesses, and so they're saying, "If I'm giving this business money," like they're not seeing the harm that's being done.
Chasta: Right.
Sara: Um, so maybe explain sort of how our children are being commodified.
Chasta: Right, right. So when you have this holding company in place- [00:10:00] Mm-hmm ... it becomes very numerically driven.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: Right? So you have a holding company, you're bigger, and that operationally shifts things a lot- Sure ... just by the nature of it.
So you're gonna be looking at line items. You're not gonna be looking at children. You're not gonna be looking at the individual, the educational needs, the pedagogy, all of those hyper-specific things that small local businesses can do because they know their communities. Instead, you're asking a holding company that, what's, what is their goal, right?
What is their goal? Their goal is not to change a community. Their goal is growth for money.
Sara: Okay. And so with that, you know, they have the resources to do the outreach, to generate the marketing, to get people to buy into their brands.
Chasta: Correct.
Sara: Um, so you as a parent might be seeing brands that are, quote-unquote, reputable because you're seeing what they're offering, and you're seeing their impact on social media and their marketing.
And so you're thinking more exposure [00:11:00] equals better reputation. Mm-hmm. Um, when what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, they ultimately are, their priority is not the community It's not the kids at play. It is, it's the numbers.
Chasta: You know, one thing I think about is all of the philanthropy that we do at the studio.
Mm-hmm. And I would have to wonder if we were swooped in and bought by a holdings company, would they feel like that philanthropy was necessary? Right. My inclination is no, they wouldn't- Mm-hmm ... because it's not driving those bottom numbers. Sure. Right? So, like, how then are you teaching, like, the leadership, the executive functioning, the resume building, all of these things that we do and we do so well, when it's not celebrated because it doesn't have to do with the numbers?
Right.
Sara: Well, because their priority is going to be the how can we stack up against the competition versus how can we reach what our community needs.
Chasta: And how can we grow? Right. How can we get bigger? How can we make more money? How can we scale? Mm-hmm. It's all of these things that historically we're taught may be good in business because, I mean, [00:12:00] this is taught in business school- Sure
right? Like, you can listen about private equity all day long on, like, Harvard Business- Yep ... including within our dance industry space.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: Um, and the way it is spoken about on the, in the finance world and in the business world is very different from how it's presented to the consumer facing side.
Interesting. And I think that's where a piece of the deception lies, right? Okay. So for example, if a company comes in- Mm-hmm ... and purchases a small business and it's now held by private equity, they may leave it branded as small and not inform the clients. Okay. So clients may not even know. Okay.
Sara: Interesting.
Chasta: And we saw that happen last spring.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: So I get removed from my speaking because of my radical views.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And luckily now I have this podcast that hopefully someone is listening to. Y- yes. If not- ... we're just talking together and having a great time. But we hope you are still listening because this is important.
Um, other than that, you know, I, so I did a follow-up. [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. Because I was like, too radical? Well, I need to educate people. Right,
Sara: which arguably is a warning sign. If someone's saying you're too radical, that is a warning sign that something, something is happening.
Chasta: It's a red flag.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Yeah. So I've been trying to trust my gut more.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: So I was like, 'cause the child- the early childhood or Childhood Should Not Be Commodified blog post was arguably a conversation starting point versus radical. Right. It was like, "Hey, this is what I'm noticing. Are you noticing it?" Right. Across sec- across all different sectors- Right, like a thou-
soccer ... a
Sara: thought prompt.
Chasta: A thought prompt. Yeah. Yes. And I don't think we should discourage thought prompts- Sure ... period. Um, so then I write a follow-up, right? The Problem With Private Equity.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: Which really, like, how would you describe the response to that? So- Maybe from your counselor angle
Sara: So people got defensive, I would say, for sure.
Chasta: Reactionary.
Sara: [00:14:00] Reactionary, but it also came from sort of a lack of understanding, so more of a, it was almost like a I don't understand the impact of this, but it sounds like a threat, so I'm gonna jump into defensive mode.
Chasta: And they were mean.
Sara: Yeah, they were not kind. They
Chasta: were, they were mean, almost bullies-
Sara: Mm-hmm
Chasta: saying incredibly fake things about me, my history.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: Um, it was kind of wild. It was. And I was just like, "Ugh," like, "Is this even, is this the industry I'm part of that's behaving this way?"
Sara: Right.
Chasta: So that happened, and I mean, it, it went on for, like, a few weeks.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: And we had a town hall, if you'll remember.
Sara: We did have a town hall.
Chasta: A town hall was organized. So basically, in this Problem with Private Equity blog article, I talk about how this is specifically impacting the dance space-
Sara: Yep ...
Chasta: a space that I care very much about. And I was talking about different companies and names and puzzle pieces [00:15:00] that I had recognized but have not fully put together, and in fact, am still trying to put together.
Sure. One of the companies mentioned, Ensemble, um, who is, you know, founded by Jeff. Mm-hmm. He, Jeff reached out to me nearly immediately from the posting of this blog post and said he thought it was really incredible, and could we keep the conversation going, which we did, into this town hall, which had a few different people, right?
Mm-hmm. And I remember before the town hall went live, one of the questions that was asked by a person on the town hall was, "Why did nobody stop the terrible things that were being said that were untrue? And, and why do you think that is?" Why, why... There are people out there that knew that the things that were being said were not true.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And they did not stop them.
Sara: To generate conversation, I guess. Could be. Could be.
Chasta: So and, you know, another of the hot spots of that conversation was that this site had a page of all of the studios that had been acquired at the time.
Sara: Mm-hmm. [00:16:00]
Chasta: And that had led to a conversation of, "Oh, I didn't realize that this school had been acquired."
And it turns out maybe a lot of people didn't realize that that school had been acquired.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And that was an example of the deceptive nature, and there were a lot of emotions and feelings surrounding that.
Sara: Yep, even though that was public, right? Like, it was publicly- It was public ... on the website. Yeah.
Um-
Chasta: Like, I don't even have to dig hard.
Sara: Right, right. Um, so with, you know, what Ensemble specifically was doing, so we're, they're acquiring dance studios, music studios, music rental facilities-
Chasta: Competitions ...
Sara: competitions. Um, I noticed on- Membership
Chasta: organizations ...
Sara: their podcast that said that they were, um, they acquired a performance opportunity, which we're not even sure what that is.
But so that would be what, I guess, the term would be is a roll-up, right? An industry roll-up. Yeah. And, you know, I actually
Chasta: wanna take a step back to something you said that I think is really important because you were saying maybe people don't understand. And in all of the meanness, [00:17:00] they k- kept screaming that it's not private equity.
Right. But we know that Juggernaut- Was a holdings company affiliated with Ensemble, maybe not majority share- Right ... but they definitely had stake in it.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And they sold that stake in August of '25. Now, we don't know what happens next. I was gonna say, do we know where? We don't know, we don't know who, what, where, because a lot of times with PE, there's a lot of holding c- holding companies involved.
Mm-hmm. The paper trails are unclear. Accountability is not as evident. Like, this is not calling up the person from your community that owns a business to say, "Hey, could you help me with this?" Right. It becomes, um, the maze widens, one might say.
Sara: [00:18:00] let's just take a step back and talk about why roll-ups in the industry are significant.
Chasta: Yeah, so let's talk about Cheer. Okay. Okay? This is a really well-known example, Varsity Brands. Varsity,
Sara: yep.
Chasta: Um, Varsity Brands is a huge industry roll-up and, you know, they trickle into school stuff like yearbooks- Yeah ... graduation apparel. What they own is so significant and vast, and when you have an industry roll-up, basically what they can do is they can accelerate pricing- Okay
right? Because they have a huge market share. So they own that market. They can drive prices up because they eventually want to become the main source of revenue in that industry. So it is like a game of Monopoly,
Sara: really.
Chasta: Truly. Yeah. Yeah, like somebody looked at Monopoly, and they were like, "Hey, let's just take-" "Let's do
Sara: [00:19:00] this."
Chasta: forget Park Place and the Boardwalk. Let's go right out the side." Right. Um, but yeah, it's, it's very complicated. Okay. And I don't think... You, people may leave, I hope you're still listening because this is complicated, and it will make your head hurt, okay? Um, it still makes my head hurt, but I encourage people to just, like, be aware and be mindful.
Yes. And going back to the industry roll-up, okay, so now we're pouring money in. We've seen this happen in dance competitions as well. So we have Dance 1- Yep ... right, which has now brought in the Break The Floor side of things and the Star- Star
Sara: Dance Alliance.
Chasta: Yeah, the Star Dance Alliance. It's a
Sara: lot of competition conventions.
Chasta: So I mean, probably, I mean, definitely in the double digits between the two.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: So this is just a tangible example so people can understand. If you're doing regionals, from four to six of their offered brands, all of your dollars are going to the same holdings company.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: You are not supporting brand [00:20:00] differentiation.
You're supporting a homogenized ecosystem, which again, costs are gonna drive, um, quality is likely going to decrease. Mm-hmm. Which, you know, I don't wanna say that that has happened, but that is definitely part of the private equity playbook. Um, it is formulaic at this point, so you can look at what's happened in a variety of industries and see what the future could look like as this plays out.
Sara: Okay, and can you talk a little bit about what that might look like?
Chasta: Well, I mean, that's a big question mark.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: Right? Um,
Sara: but just knowing from what we know, like from the vets and the dentists and the burger joints.
Chasta: Yeah. Which one just closed yesterday, right? One just closed
Sara: right down the street.
Chasta: Yeah.
That we went to after a recital last year. So, and you know, we see this happen in every industry, and I think my concern with this is that children should not be chess pieces. Mm-hmm. And I think when we're using children as pawns for corporate gain, it [00:21:00] feels very icky. Yep. So I think these conversations are important.
So what this could look like, for example, so say you have a membership organization that attracts a lot of members. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, maybe it's a style of dance or something people subscribe to. And so you have that, and then you can potentially use that to look at possible places to buy, right, to acquire.
So now you not only own members in your holdings company, but you also have studio locations. And then you say, "Well, where do the studios spend their money?" Maybe they spend money on software or competition- Mm-hmm ... or costumes or merchandise or curriculum, pedagogy, all of those things. That entire flywheel could be held by a holdings group.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: And then that holdings group, you know, things are going well, maybe they hold it a little bit longer. If they're not going so well, they offload it with no accountability.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: There's a really good book called Bad Company that's about real tangible [00:22:00] examples of how private equity has impacted individuals.
I think what really gets me going about this is that we talk about this in a lot of the episodes, that we are getting a step away from caring about people- Right ... because we're prioritizing profits and corporations, and it is deeply concerning when it's children.
Sara: Yes, for sure, and with any extracurricular especially.
Um, but I think it's really interesting to think about specifically in the dance industry where you might be seeing all of this, and while it's not necessarily from the same holdings company, um, it's setting itself up in a way where it could be.
Chasta: Yeah.
Sara: Um, and that is something that I think should be a red flag.
Chasta: Yep. And you know, we even saw Capezio-
Sara: Yes ...
Chasta: who's been around since the 1800s.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: They were acquired recently. Yep. And it has created a lot of conversation-
Sara: Yes ...
Chasta: because Capezio now looks very different.
Sara: It does. And also, I- that impacted the Discount Dance-
Chasta: [00:23:00] It did ...
Sara: as well. Um, which I've noticed is up- Went
Chasta: away, came back.
Sara: Yeah, it's up and running again, um, with mostly just Capezio brands, so.
Chasta: Probably up and running again with quotation marks around it.
Sara: Y- yes, I haven't tried to order from there, but. Just
Chasta: like Bed Bath & Beyond is up and running again.
Sara: Right. Um- So that's, that's interesting, and I think that that's definitely something to consider, especially when you're looking at, like, these competition, convention acquisitions.
Like, I'm specifically thinking of the Dance Awards.
Chasta: Oh, yeah.
Sara: So as we were growing up, you know, the Dance Awards was, like, the- It
Chasta: was newer ...
Sara: the nationals. Yeah. But it was like what people wanted to do, mostly because there was only one of them. You couldn't go to, like, seven different nationals and be a national champion.
Um, but there was one. It was, like, televised. It fed into, like, attracted some really popular choreographers. Like, people loved the Dance Awards, and so I'm just thinking of that. Now that exists under the same umbrella as, like, World Dance Pageant and 700 other nationals, so how are they [00:24:00] differentiating or are they differentiating?
Chasta: I'm, I mean, just a different label on the trophy would be my guess. Yeah. And we've also, from the footage we've seen, it's seems like it's a very different experience- Mm-hmm ... from those events of yesteryear.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And you know, the interesting thing is parents spend a lot of money to go to these things.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: They spend a lot of money, and why do you need to spend all this money when you're just going to duplicate experiences- Right ... that aren't actually to drive growth, but are there to drive profit and gain- Yeah ... for a holdings company.
Sara: Yeah. So you're essentially doing the same event under different titles- Yeah
is what's happening.
Chasta: Yeah. It's like if you walked into a mall owned by whoever, and the owner of the mall owned every single shop, and every single shop you went in, even if it had a different name, you would ... When you pay, you're still giving the person that owns the mall the money.
Sara: Gotcha, and I think that's important to understand, too, because I think a lot of these competitions and conventions being [00:25:00] acquired were initially f- like, started by- Mm-hmm
people who were very personable, like, knew the studio owners. And what's happening is that they might still be staying on as, like, founders or CEOs, so- Yeah, that's- ... their face is still there, but that's not who's getting the money anymore, and I don't think that that's what is being conveyed.
Chasta: Yeah, a couple of things that you'll notice in this ecosystem that I think are really important to talk about, a lot of times you'll notice that names and titles have changed away from owner.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: So a lot of times owner will disappear, and you might see founder, director. Um, that can al- sometimes be a, like, oh, hey, this person's not the owner anymore.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: So if you are small and local, I do encourage you to use the word owner. I think that's important.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And then we also have this, like, weird use of partner.
Sara: Yep, which I've noticed more and more places are using the word partner. Partner. Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And it's like- People just use, [00:26:00] um, it's used in so many different ways that I don't think anyone necessarily realizes, like, what type of partner that is. Right. Are they a partner in the holdings company? Are they a partner organization that actually has no money or buy-in?
I think it's, we're living in a t- in a time where, especially because private equity is so deceptive, that being as transparent as possible about who is the owner.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Who owns the company, where are
Sara: your dollars going?
Chasta: Right.
Sara: I think that's super important. Um, and I'm also, like, I'm just thinking right now what's coming to mind is Showstopper.
I've seen a lot about Showstopper online. Um, and I know that it's really difficult to trace back to, you know, the full ownership and the selling of Showstopper. But I've been seeing that they're one of the most rapidly expanding competitions- Mm-hmm ... um, with having, I think they added, I don't even know how many cities.
I don't wanna say it, because I'm not totally sure. And you
Chasta: know, rapid expansion is almost always some [00:27:00] type of private equity infusion.
Sara: Mm-hmm. And why do you think that is? Is it because they have the money-
Chasta: They have the money ... to do it now? Okay. They've just gotta put it somewhere. So they infuse, and they grow, and they scale, and then sometimes it works, and a lot of times it doesn't.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Or it works for a period of time, and then it shuts down.
Sara: So even though, like, I grew up competing at Showstopper- Mm-hmm ... and it was always a really fun experience, and, you know, it sort of gained reputability from that, and I think a lot of, like, studio owners, teachers that grew up are saying, you know, like, "Yeah, I grew up dancing at these certain competitions, and I can put, like, my testimony behind it."
But essentially what's happening is that it might not be the same competition at all. It might have the same name and the same branding, but it might be totally different operationally, who's holding it, who's running it, who's making the decisions.
Chasta: Exactly. Okay. Or maybe it's a divided share. Mm-hmm. Like, maybe there is still some original ownership interest.
You know, like we said, we don't really know, because transparency seems to not be very trendy.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And I think when you do [00:28:00] have children, like, transparency is key.
Sara: I feel like that needs to be, like, a new movement. Like, make transparency trendy again.
Chasta: Yeah. Like, we just- Like something ... like, why is everything so shady?
Like- Right ... and you know, and that was one of the things when we decided we were gonna talk about this, is let's just be honest, and, like, the unknown of- Mm-hmm ... there is so much unknown, and it really doesn't make ... Like, this shouldn't be a mystery.
Sara: Right, and I think that's something that stood out when you released your blog articles last year.
It was the, the other, the oppositional side of it was, "Well, why didn't you just ask?" Like, "We would've answered any questions. Why didn't you just ask? Why did you have to write this blog article? You could have just asked us and had a conversation." And that was one of the most defensive points that were taken, but at the same time, it's like, with, with the way you're getting defensive, no, we can't just ask.
Like- Yeah. Like, it's not setting, there's no open line of communication.
Chasta: Mm-mm. And I don't think they want it to be.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: But there were a lot of websites that were enhanced after those blog articles. Yep. I think there were a lot of questions asked. I think a lot of [00:29:00] people became more aware. And, and, you know, peop- there are people that need exit strategies.
Sara: Yeah.
Chasta: So, and I think knowledge is power. Mm-hmm. And I, and I don't think talking about it is a bad thing.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: Like, even if you're not gonna go the private equity path, like, people should know that that is an option, and that they may be a pariah trying to buy them.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And how do you, how do you differentiate?
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And, you know, I think another ick factor about private equity in the dance space specifically is how it's often talked about in the finance circles of, um, just, like, a sitting duck, right? Like, I feel like a lot of the finance circle makes it seem like a lot of helpless business owners- Yep ... which we are not.
Like, a lot of the selling point is, "Take the stress of payroll away." Right. "Take the stress of cleaning the toilets away. Take the stress of," what are some of the other examples? Um, HR-
Sara: Right ...
Chasta: um, away. But, like, I mean, I just ... That [00:30:00] sounds so ridiculous to me.
Sara: And that's, that's something that I've been noticing too, um- Is
Chasta: that predatory?
Sara: I'm ... Maybe
Chasta: a little bit. Is it, is it saying, like, "Women, you can't do it"?
Sara: I don't know if it's saying, "Women, you can't do it," or if it's more of a, like, stay-in-your-lane situation from people- Like, just
Chasta: teach the dance?
Sara: Right, right, exactly.
Chasta: Which is also offensive, arguably.
Sara: And that's actually ... It's something that I noticed in a podcast interview I was listening, specifically with roll-ups that are happening, um- In dance specifically?
In, in dance specifically. Okay. Um, and the angle was, "We chose dance because we found it would be better to target markets where people are experts in their fields, but not in business." And so it was essentially saying, you know, dance teachers are experts at teaching dance, teaching the art, but when it comes to business, they don't have the knowledge or the foundation to run it appropriately, so we're gonna do that.
Chasta: Yeah. And- They're kind of, like, mansplaining them.
Sara: Yes, exactly.
Chasta: Yeah, that's kind of gross.
Sara: Yeah. I mean, it's not good. Um-
Chasta: But, but actually, [00:31:00] you did share that podcast with me. I didn't listen to it, but I read the transcript. Yes.
Sara: And
Chasta: it's- And, and the way they talk about the parents too. Mm-hmm. Of, like, "We know that parents are there.
They have recurring monthly revenue, and we want to take advantage of that."
Sara: Well, and to your point of, you know, almost preying on businesses with children, is that they know parents are gonna pay. Parents are going to pay to get their child to be successful. Yeah. And so if that means doing 500 conventions under the same circuit to be successful, the parents are gonna pay the money.
And the
Chasta: parents don't know. No. They don't know that they are paying the same Pied Piper.
Sara: Right, because they're just seeing, "Oh, we're getting, you know, these specific awards at these specific conventions and competitions and multiple ... " They're resume stacking. Yes, yes. It goes back to resume stacking. Yeah.
So we're paying to stack the resumes. And they just keep shelling out the money, and these holding companies and business people are saying, "Yeah, bring it on."
Chasta: Yeah. They love it.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: And that's why it was identified, I think they call [00:32:00] dance, like, a small to mid-market- Yeah ... acquisition. And there was a lot of white space- Mm-hmm
which, that's term for opportunity, and they saw the opportunity and they seized it. And the thing is, the frustrating thing for me is that we had this conversation in 2021. This happened so quietly and quickly- Yep ... in just a few years' time, that by the time that we have arrived at where we are now, it is accelerating so quickly-
Sara: Yep
Chasta: that all we can do is encourage people to be aware, and to give extra support to those that are locally owned- Yes ... that are still out there in your communities fighting the good fight, right?
Sara: Yes. And I will say, too, like, one thing that I've noticed specifically on these, like, dance mom boards, dance teacher boards, is that there are big names in the industry that are advocating, not necessarily for private equity, but for companies associated with private equity, defending it from the process of this is a good thing.
Chasta: Well, one of the recruiters for, for selling, or for working for one of the [00:33:00] investment firms is a So You Think You Can Dance alumni-
Sara: Mm-hmm ...
Chasta: that was reaching out via Facebook Messenger.
Sara: Yep. Yeah, and it's just you see these, these big names, and you associate, you know, credentials with good intent. And I think that there's an important
You have to keep good intent separate from accomplishment.
Chasta: And I think an important thing to, and I've thought about this a lot in the year-long reflection that I had between putting out the blogs and feeling comfortable to talk about this, is that it's not, you know, we don't know the people. Mm-hmm.
Right? We don't know all of these people. We are not sitting down and having dinner with the people involved in this private equity ecosystem. Sure. It's a process. Mm-hmm. And it's the process that's deeply concerning, and the process is big, and it's expanding, and it's deemed trendy in a lot of business circles as the thing to do.
Mm-hmm. So how can we, in an industry that maybe collectively doesn't necessarily want this, how do [00:34:00] we stand strong in our own capable way? Because I do think that dance studio owners are some of the most passionate and capable people. Sure. They care so deeply about their clients and their children, and as they're making these decis- dec- as they are making these decisions, we just have to be aware.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: We have to know.
Sara: Well, and I think this is important, too, if you're in college and you're, you know, graduating with a dance degree and you want to pursue dance as a career, this is an important thing to know, too, because I know that some of these companies are going to, like, college career fairs saying- Yep
"Yes, we can hire you as, like, a director. You have room to grow. You have room to climb the ladder," um, offering, you know, benefits packages or salaries that y- maybe local studios can't. And I think it's important for people entering the industry to understand what this means. So-
Chasta: And they do also strategically use people from the inside of the industry, too.
Mm-hmm. Just like we were kind of talking about the So You Think You Can Dance piece- Yep ... or some of these other, you know, [00:35:00] people that have kind of crossed over. It's, it's very intentional.
Sara: Yep. So if we're thinking about this from, like, you know, maybe a parent's perspective, what are, like, your top takeaways for what to watch out for- I think-
and maybe why?
Chasta: Yeah. I think as a parent, I'm looking. Mm-hmm. I'm always ... This, this has made me a more aware parent- Yes ... and a more aware business owner. And
Sara: to be clear, this is not just dance. It's-
Chasta: It is not just dance ... any extracurricular. Yes, and any extracurricular, even, like, the sandwich shops you go to.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: Um, our son has become very aware of what is and is not private equity-owned because of this whole- conversation. Mm-hmm. He was saying private equity at three years old because this was- Right ... we were talking about it so much. He
Sara: was living the blog, the blog post.
Chasta: Yes. And, and now he's always like, "Is that owned by private equity?"
And I'll be like, "Let's Google it." So it's also just how do we, how do we gain awareness and [00:36:00] understanding, and how do we teach others awareness and understanding? Because I think, you know, the danger here is that we are gonna lose the vibrant, unique community small business staples that really make some of these metro areas a vibrant, a special place to live.
Mm-hmm. And if we're not watching where our dollars go, we may be being a part of the problem without even recognizing it.
Sara: Right. And so, like, for some, because I know that specifically with the Ensemble roll-up, they're saying that they can keep, the businesses are keeping their brand and their identity and their ties to the community.
So what threats do you see, like, those could pose? Because, you know, from an outside looking in, they're saying, "We can keep the branding." Everything stays the same. "We're still attached." Right. "The owner's still involved." So what sort of red flags might pop up?
Chasta: Well, I think the biggest is that it's so new that we don't really know.
We don't know. Okay. We don't know, and there's so much gray space in the not [00:37:00] knowing.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: Like, like, how does a roll-up handle, like, an industry-wide crisis? Mm-hmm. You know, like, how does that cross apply to differing brands? How does, um, a problem in one location impact problems in other locations?
Because to the point, they have a big employee share too. Sure. Like, if you, a lot of times with these industry roll-ups, if you're applying, you go in, and you're not just applying to work at one spot. Right. They could place you anywhere in any of their brands.
Sara: Okay.
Chasta: So how does that, how does that vetting process look like?
And they j- they're big on, like, "We'll handle, you know, this employment for you," but how does that work with, like, culture integration if you're truly able to maintain mission and vision and strategy? Like, it just seems kind of oppositional.
Sara: Right. Right, and I was gonna say that immediately made me think, like, with the way we hire at the studio, we're very intentional and, you know, the candidate needs to fit the brand and the mission and the teaching style and the pedagogy and, you know, all of that stuff, and it wouldn't work to [00:38:00] have someone from our studio- Just drop in.
Right, working at five other places because we are so different from- Right ... within the area.
Chasta: Unless, and this is something that I think we should all be mindful of, we've talked about it a little with the competitions, is- W- what if it becomes more homogenized? Mm-hmm. Like, what if we lose differentiation?
Right. Like, sure, you can have different names. You can have different names on stores in a mall, but they can all still, you know, sell the same things.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: So how... To truly make sure that we have a really vibrant, creative market, which is what creates, like, a great place to live, are options.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: If we lose that optionality, then, then what are we doing?
Sara: Right.
Chasta: And it's at the expense of the child's experience.
Sara: Right. 'Cause at the end of the day, that's what this comes back to, is- Yep ... it's the children.
Chasta: It's the children, and you know, it's one thing if it's pizzas, burgers-
Sara: Right ...
Chasta: pharmaceuticals.
Sara: Mm-hmm.
Chasta: But this is childhood, and- And it's education ... it's childhood, it's education, and to our point, [00:39:00] and to a lot of points of our podcast, you only get one childhood.
Right. So where are you spending it, and is it gonna be your best investment? Mm-hmm. I think that's the biggest question.
Sara: Yep.
Chasta: Is, is this time spent as a part of this program benefiting your child, or is it benefiting a corporation?
Sara: Mm. And I think that's really powerful to think about it that way- Yeah ... and to frame it that way.
Chasta: That's the question: Who is benefiting from this experience most? Mm-hmm. And I think that should help you make your decisions if you have all the information, and that's where the deception- Right ... becomes important. But again, hopefully this conversation will bring more attention and awareness.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: I feel like we've both learned a lot together.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: And still are.
Sara: Yes. So just a really quick follow-up. So if someone is saying, "I want to do the research, and I want to see where my dollars are going," what... how do you suggest doing that?
Chasta: Yeah, so it is a bit of a, a little bit of a rabbit chase- Oh ... if one might say. Um, you've [00:40:00] done a good bit of it. Mm-hmm.
And you really have to go to the S corp, right? Yep. You've got... You may not find them in a secretary of state filing. They're often held in holdings firms in different states. Um, and you know, that can help your trail. It may not get you to where you need to go-
Sara: Right ...
Chasta: but be mindful of those words, founders.
Sara: Yes. Yep, and I will-
Chasta: Artistic director ...
Sara: I will say if something is owned locally by a local person, it is much easier to find-
Chasta: Yes ... that. Who it is.
Sara: Yes.
Chasta: If you're having difficulty finding ownership- Yep ... that could be a red flag. That could be a
Sara: red flag.
Chasta: Yeah. And to that point, like I said, locally owned places really need to celebrate that fact.
Mm-hmm. This is a time to really stand strong in that and be proud of it.
Sara: Yeah, absolutely.
Chasta: And capable, and not afraid of places saying that you are incapable of doing something that you're very capable of doing.
Sara: Right.
Chasta: Any final words from you? I don't think so. I mean, you've been along for the ride.
Sara: I have been.
I do, I do say that as a parent, before my child [00:41:00] or my children, both of them, commit to a new extracurricular, that's the first thing I look at, is where is that money going?
Chasta: Yeah, you- even with music lessons, like
Sara: you said- Even, oh, music lessons was so hard. Yep. It was so hard to find something that's still locally owned.
Chasta: So no matter what your child might be interested in- Yes ... just, just do the research. Mm-hmm. And know, because, you know, it's, it's so complicated. I- we can't get through it all in one episode, but I hope that people will leave today just knowing a little bit more than maybe they did. Yes. All right, if you listened to us for this long, you made it through the private equity, the first private equity episode of Nobody Listens to Chasta.
This is a topic that's very close to my heart. If you have experience with it, if you wanna say more mean things, or if you wanna share your experience, feel, please feel free to reach out to me. Subscribe, keep listening. We love having you here, and we're excited to continue making the world better for children, because that is ultimately what we care about, and it's one of our main topics.
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