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Listen to Prisons Inside/Out, a podcast from Correctional Service Canada. Follow along as we take you beyond the walls of our institutions, highlighting the important work we do to protect Canadians and change lives every day.
Kirstan: 18 years ago, Angie's life was changed forever when her brother was murdered, in what she describes as a senseless act of violence. In the years that followed, she carried the weight of her grief, anger and unanswered questions. Then she discovered an opportunity that would change her life in many ways. Through the Correctional Service of Canada's Restorative Opportunities Program, Angie would get the chance to face the man responsible for her pain.
Kirstan: The Restorative Opportunities Program, now celebrating its 20th anniversary, offers a safe environment where those harmed by crime can choose to communicate with the offender who harmed them. This voluntary program is guided by the needs of participants and can take shape in many ways from video messages, letters, relayed messages through a mediator or, in Angie's case, a face to face meeting. This process of communicating with the offender allows those harmed to tell their story.
Kirstan: Explain the long-term consequences of the crime and find answers to questions that are important to them. For offenders, participation offers them an opportunity to take meaningful accountability for their actions, to express remorse, and to provide answers directly to the person they harmed. And in some cases, they can take action to help repair some of the harm that was caused. At every step of the process, participants are guided by a trained and experienced mediator, and those mediators work with the participants to help them identify and explore their needs and work with them to determine how these needs can best be met.
Kirstan: Today, we'll hear Angie's story. It's a journey that challenges everything she knew about moving forward and healing. We'll also hear from Dennis, a long-term mediator with CSC who helped guide countless participants, including Angie, through the program. Before we begin, I'd like to offer a quick sensitivity warning, as today's episode does discuss violence, crime, grief, and trauma. Some parts of Angie's story may be difficult for listeners to hear, especially for those with similar experiences.
Kirstan: If you or someone you know is struggling with the issues discussed, we encourage you to seek support. We've left some resources in the episode description below. Thanks for tuning in. And with that, let's get started.
Kirstan: I'm really super pleased to have you here with me today, so welcome.
Angie: Thank you. I'm excited to be here too.
Kirstan: Great. So, Angie, where are you joining us from today?
Angie: Um, I'm joining you from my little farmhouse, about a half hour outside of Regina, Saskatchewan.
Kirstan: Oh, wonderful. And, uh, Angie, tell me a bit about yourself.
Angie: Well, I, um, I'm a mother of two teenagers, which, keeps me on my toes. And, I love to be in the outdoors and I love to quad and skidoo. I am a Catholic school teacher. I teach grade six mostly. It's what, the grade level. That's kind of most exciting to me, I guess. And, I love to travel with my partner and get on airplanes and go find adventure.
Kirstan: Wonderful. And so, what got you involved with the Restorative Opportunities program?
Angie: Well, first, I guess 16 or 17 years ago now, my brother was taken from us in an unfortunate situation. And, the person that took his life was experiencing a parole hearing, and I didn't know how to deal with that. So I searched something out that could possibly help me, and I ended up stumbling across it, actually kind of by accident.
Kirstan: And tell me a bit about how you approached it, how you started your healing journey.
Angie: Well, I started it because I had to write a victim impact statement for a parole hearing. And I was kind of going through my computer, and I sat down, and I was trying to write this letter to express my feelings about this monster and every time I started the letter, I had more questions than I had answers. I started writing a letter, and I erased it all.
Angie: And then I'd go back to the past victim impact statements that I wrote for when we went through his trial and stuff. And it was about, I guess, 12 years after the incident and after going through kind of the nightmare we did. And I remember just thinking, I'm, I don't know, I don't have enough information to write this impact statement. So, I ended up calling my victim's officer and just saying, like, I have all these questions, how can I get answers to these before I write this victim impact statement? And she's actually the one that asked if I'd ever heard of the restorative justice program.
Angie: And I said, no, explain it to me. I said, like, I want to sit down with him and have a conversation and get some answers. And at the time, I think I wanted to nail him to the cross a little bit, too, and make sure that he kind of knew what I was thinking and so then I was on the phone with her and she said well, we have this restorative justice program. Like, let me I'm going to send you the pamphlet to your email right when we're on the phone and just talk it through with me.
Angie: So she sent me the email and I'm like, well, this is kind of the program exactly like I just asked for. So, it kind of just spiraled from there in one day on the trail to meet Dennis and to start this program.
Kirstan: And just for our listeners, if you're comfortable, can you tell us a bit about the nature of the crime and kind of how old you were? And take us from the beginning.
Angie: All right. So, if I were to go back to the beginning, my older brother and I had a little bit of a break in relationship. We had kind of tried to figure out a little bit. It was sometimes a strained relationship between him and I, and we were just kind of coming off a strange relationship. Um, time a little bit of time apart.
Angie: And it was Boxing Day 26, 2006. And, um, my brother came to our family, get together for Boxing Day, and it was a little bit of a fresh start for, for us both. I was pregnant at the time and had a year-old son. And so, it was my brother kind of meeting my son for the first time and all of that. At around supper time, he had to go pick up his wife and they were going to come back and play poker.
Angie: So we had his daughter with us, and we were kind of waiting for him to return. And I remember sitting around the table and getting a phone call saying that my brother had been stabbed at the store he was at, and that they were taking him to the hospital. And so my parents rushed out the door to go to the hospital, and we were kind of left with what kind of what the hell happened? And so the next day, we find out the offender's been arrested, and there was an altercation of some teenage boys, wreaking havoc at the local corner store.
Angie: When my brother was asked for help from a person working there, they kind of came up behind him and stabbed him. The doctor later informed us that his heart was cut in half, and even if he would have been standing beside him, there would have been nothing that they could do. So that ensued the biggest nightmare of any family's life.
Angie: We were kind of thrown right into the judicial system and court appearance after court appearance, we saw the offender before we ever saw my brother, because he was shipped off for evidence right after everything happened. So, it was a real, like I said, a nightmare. I remember sitting around for days not knowing really what was up and what was down.
Angie: So it really threw our family for kind of a huge well, I don't wish it on anybody. It's something that you can't imagine going through and are never prepared for. Right.
Kirstan: I'm very sorry for your loss. It sounds like a very difficult time, and I'm assuming it takes a long time to try to heal from such a thing.
Angie: Yeah it does. Um, even after time you have days where it's like it happened yesterday and then you have days where you kind of convince yourself that it didn't happen. So it's. Yeah. A roller coaster of emotion. The beginning of the court experience for our family was very, it was very raw and very confrontational with the offender. He was very much thinking that everything was a joke and that he was a big man on campus, and went out of his way to intimidate us in the courtroom. It ended up giving me a real monster complex. Like, I thought he was this huge monster, and I was actually scared of him.
Angie: And I think that kind of led to later in the process, finding restorative justice, because to me, that was something that I needed to fix within my own understanding of him. If that make sense?
Kirstan: Yeah, absolutely. Was the offender very old at the time of the crime?
Angie: 16, so he was 16. He had a lot of growing up to do, and he had a lot of criminal past already at the age of 16.
Kirstan: So this happened back in 2006. And then at what point did you meet Dennis to begin? And when were you ready to begin this journey of healing?
Angie: Well part of, I guess part of the background to my healing process is about six months after my brother passed away as a family, we decided to seek out, like, a family counselor to kind of um, help us heal a little bit more because as a family unit. Like when you look at when you go through something, most of the time you rely on the people closest to you.
Angie: But when the people closest to you are also going through the same thing, it's really hard to lean on each other, and it's really hard to pick each other up when you can't pick yourself up. So we started having family suppers once every two weeks, and we brought in a counselor to kind of sit with us after the supper was over. And it was a way for us to kind of check in with everybody and all of that. And I remember about the fourth or fifth time she came; she said the word forgiveness.
Angie: And I think we all collectively kicked her out of the house. We're like, you're here to help us. That's not helping us. You need to leave where we kind of weren't ready for that. Then I kind of sought out counseling on my own, and really didn't take it much further. Just thought this is something that I kind of have to understand and go through on my own.
Angie: And I don't know why I thought that. Then it was a few like ten years later, I told you I was a teacher, but the part that I left out was I was a teacher in an inner-city school in Regina. That was predominantly indigenous, poverty stricken. And I put in 18 years there. And during that time, I ran across kids that I wanted to take home and loved and kind of created my own family there.
Angie: And was really my heart was in that school 100%. And I hadn't all I don't want to call it an altercation, but I had a situation with one of my favorite students where I had to take away a knife from them because they were going to harm themselves. And in that moment of doing what I did I had he had said a lot of things that the offender had said through court and that I had heard about carrying a knife and why they have a knife.
Kirstan: And that played a huge part of this process because it really screwed with my head. And I remember going to my doctor, who is an amazing person. And he said to me, he's like, well, when you have PTSD and I'm like, when you have what? And he looked at me. He's like, Angie, how do you not know you have PTSD? I'm like, how have you not said those words before? Like, how have I not heard that exact thing come from your mouth? He's like, you're smart.
Angie: I didn't think I had to say it. I'm like, well, I never assumed that that is what's going on. And then I started going into a lot of research on it. And that's probably part of the reason of why I entered the program, because it was like I started to understand my triggers and my symptoms of the PTSD. And I started to really search out knowledge.
Angie: I found when I could learn something, I could understand so much more. And I believe that's why I went into this program. I wanted answers, I wanted the power of knowing why and what happened. And from the only person that could give me those answers. I also had an inkling that he would have similarities to students that I taught in my past.
Angie: Teaching grade six in the inner city, I collected students that were important to me, and most of the time along the way, they ended up being, like 12 year old boys that everybody had given up on. And so, through doing some research of my own and coming up with all of these questions that I had. I needed to know if he was one of those boys.
Kirstan: I was also curious because you talked about you know, when a family is going through such a thing. How do you support each other when everybody's grieving? And you touched earlier upon the fact that I believe your brother had a child and you had young children at the time. And is is this knowledge and kind of power through the process, a way of helping you support these children as well through their own healing?
Angie: I think the thing with my family is we all went, like, as much as we could support each other. We all kind of went our own ways on our healing journey. Because I have the background that we just talked about, I was at a different place, in a different understanding than the rest of my family. So like, even when I look at...So I have a younger brother, my parents. Yes. He had. My, my brother had a daughter who was seven at the time that he passed away. And then his wife. So, it was like, it's a it was already a small family. And then when we started kind of realizing that we couldn't help each other, we all kind of went elsewhere to look for the support.
Angie: And me having my background and experience that I had, I think that's what brought me to a different place than the rest of my family. I think I could understand dynamics a little bit more and I could understand, and kind of remove the offender from the situation a little bit. But that's another thing to like when I look at my whole family being the victim of this horrific thing and each one of us taking a different approach, it makes me realize that sometimes people, well, everybody deals with things differently.
Angie: But this program isn't for everybody. And I know this is a bringing awareness to the program. And that is very, very important to me. And it's one of the things, after going through what I did that is high on my list to do is promote this program. But I'm also well aware that this isn't for everybody. When I look through just the people in my own family. There's a lot of backlash with what I did as well from the people in my world, because they don't have the same background as me and they don't have the same life experience, even though we went through the same thing.
Kirstan: Absolutely. And I think that's such a good point, because some people may just not want to do any of it, might not want to think about it ever again. And for others, it may take a number of years or a lifetime. And so fast forward, I guess it's been, you know, approaching on 20 years since this crime was committed.
Angie: Isn't that crazy that like, when I, when I said about how sometimes it feels like yesterday and. Yeah, you're right. Like I didn't do the math very good before, but yes, it's almost 20 years and I still some days feel like it's yesterday and still replay in my brain the days after that. Like it's crazy how time heals, but yet. It feels like. No time has passed.
Kirstan: And tell me a bit about participation and the first meeting with Dennis, you talked about how you got in touch with the program, and you had, made that phone call and you were ready to go, what happened next?
Angie: Next is I kind of just waited for Dennis to call. I didn't know what was going to be Dennis but when he when he called me, there was an instant connection with Dennis, and I. After the whole situation, I now know if it would have been anybody else, I don't know that I would have had the outcome that I did because like I said, Dennis and I hit it off right off the bat. We were very alike people in our work world.
Angie: And we just kind of jived right from the start. So he asked to hear my story, and I explained exactly what happened with my brother. And then we talked about what I wanted out of this program, and he explained how, like, basically, we're going to talk every two weeks, and kind of work through what this program works looks like, work through if I was even ready to embark on this program.
Angie: And Dennis's job was to make sure that this will be a positive experience, tailored to what I wanted. So, it was really I know I in the initial stages of talking with Dennis, I know I talked back and forth about this is what I want, but I don't know if that's what I get. And he he would always say, Angie, like, this is for you. So, if you want something, if you have questions, if you like, we're going to we're going to get all of that figured out.
Angie: And he was just somebody that was super easy, super easy to talk to. So, we would talk every two weeks and just kind of go over what I, what made me ready to do what I was going to do. And his job was to solely make sure that I was being taken care of in the whole process.
Kirstan: So did it require a lot of preparation on your part to think through those goals and the types of questions? Or had you been thinking about it for a long time already?
Angie: As soon as I found this program, I was like, okay, this program is exactly what I dreamt up. So, I had done a lot of the mental work. There'd be times when Dennis would ask me a question and just be like, I don't. Or he'd go to ask me a question and he'd say, I don't have to. Really. Yeah, we're going to talk about this, but you've already made me aware of this aspect, or we've already talked about it.
Angie: And there's times where he would actually say to me, like, it feels like you're ready way earlier than normally with him, like I said, it was a lot of I've thought about this a million times. And the one thing that we remember kind of the most in our conversations is he asked a lot about like the why and the why I have to go and I've just for the longest time felt like my body had to finish this process.
Angie: My body had to get on a plane, like, have this experience to really wrap and find closure in the in this horrible event. A lot of the conversation that him and I had, I had already kind of thought and rethought and kind of done the work in my head already. He did give me lots of things to think about.
Angie: But yeah, it was it was a process that I didn't know existed and then realized was what I had wanted for a really long time.
Kirstan: So just so I understand. What form did communication take with the offender? Did you... You said you got on a plane, so you went and met with him.
Angie: I went to the prison. The prison he was stationed in? Yeah.
Kirstan: Okay. And what went through your mind as you you were doing that?
Angie: Well, the one thing that I, that I guess I have to kind of state is my family didn't know that I was doing this process, for a lot of. Yeah. One, I didn't want them to stop me, too. I didn't want them to come with me. And so, I didn't. I didn't tell my family; my own children knew.
Angie: And they were along for the process, partially because they got to, to see me kind of talking to Dennis and stuff, and I wanted to keep them in the loop that way. So, my kids and, they knew what was going on, but my, the rest of my family didn't. And so, when I, when I left and got on the plane and did that part of the journey, I was kind of doing it secretive and so it was a little bit stressful in the way of just I didn't want anybody to know what was going on.
Angie: So I kind of did the process with just Dennis as kind of my support system. Some of my friends knew and all of that. So getting on the plane and doing that portion was really an independent journey for me.
Kirstan: So some people would say going into a prison in itself could be a bit intimidating if you've never been. And so, you know, you show up there and you sit down with an offender and just walk me through what you were feeling at the time.
Angie: I remember feeling really confused and wondering like how I was going to do it and what I was going to start off with and how I was going to address him. And, and if I was going to be, like, too scared to even do it. Because remember, I talked about the whole monster complex, and he was somebody that I was scared of. And then you're right, I was going into a medium security prison in a place that...in a province I had never been in.
Angie: I remember Dennis driving and the second we turned around the corner to go into the prison, there was a wood carving saying peace. And I remember seeing that and just thinking, okay, I got this. We're coming from a place of peace and we're here now.
Angie: We're just going to see what happens. And I remember that totally sticking out. And, like, I can see it plain as day and just being like, okay, this is this is what we're here for. We're here for peace and we're here for understanding. So, let's see. And then we walked into the prison, Dennis and I and met with the offender's PO officer and walked in the general population of a prison, which kind of caught me off guard a little bit too, because I'm like, this is all I knew about prisons was for movies, right? And so, I'm walking in a prison thinking this looks a lot safer than it should be.
Angie: I just remember thinking like that i t was not scary to me. And maybe it helped because I'm like, I'm 5'10, and the PO officer was a very petite woman, so I'm like, she can handle it. I think I got my own system. So, I kind of was following her around. I'm like, I think I should be okay. And, um, and then we went to a boardroom, an office kind of right beside the warden's office.
Angie: And there was a lot of talk before I went there of what the initial meeting was going to look like, who was going to be in the room, what was the room going to look like? And I was very adamant that I have to be into the room first, and I have to kind of check out my surroundings and make it the way that I wanted it. There was talk the day before of having a guard in the room with us.
Angie: And I remember telling Dennis that I don't want that. I'm not a very like energy people's energy person. But this event did make me that way. I was very conscious of whose energy I was going to have to be dealing with and who was going to be involved in it. One this is something very intimate between two people, and I didn't want more people in the room to have to deal with their tics or them breathing even, or them distracting me, or them having a input into what was happening.
Angie: So I told Dennis, there's no way I'm doing it if there's going to be a guard in there.
Angie: Yeah, he yeah. So he made sure that there wasn't. There was also talk of who was going to be in the room first. And if the person like if I was going to walk into a room with the offender sitting there or if I was in the room first and then the offender walked in and there was a little bit of...The offender wanted to be in the room first. And I also vetoed that because I'm like, no, I need my energy and me in the room first.
Angie: So it was just Dennis and I in the room, and then the offender walked in and yeah, so that's the way I designed it. And that's what happened. I was put in this room. I was able to move chairs around. I put the chairs where I wanted people to sit. I was very bossy. Dennis can attest to it later. And I just really made sure that I got what I needed out of the program.
Angie: So.
Kirstan: So it was yourself, Dennis. And the offender. Three people. Yeah, that was it. And how did you how did you kick this off? You you sat down. And just how long did you stay there?
Angie: Well I made sure I got two days to, um, sit down with the offender, partially because I'm a very much a person that has to kind of dissect things and get and re-ask things. So I sat down with him one morning for three hours, then was able to go back to my hotel room and kind of reassess everything.
Angie: And then I went back the next day to kind of clarify things. And, and I knew before I, while I was in the planning stage that I was going to need that. So Dennis really had to work hard to make sure that that is a possibility. There's also things that happen in prison that we we just don't know. So like every three hours they need to be. In this prison anyway they need to be counted and they need to be at certain checkpoints.
Angie: Right. So, I was allowed to sit with him for a morning. He would have to go back to his cell for, for lunch and then an afternoon for two days. And we only ended up using the morning on those two days. But I did have that afternoon time if, if I needed it. Okay. And then when he came in and sat down, I spoke and I basically said to him, I said, I'm here for answers.
Angie: You don't get to sugarcoat the answers. If I ask you a question, I want all the information that you can give. And if I get too much information, then I have to sort that out. But I would sooner have that than you hold anything back for me. And I basically said, I am here for answers, and if I can't trust you or I can't trust this process, then you need to get the hell out. And I used stronger words than that. And so he agreed.
Angie: He agreed to what I was asking, and I just started rifling questions at him, and, he stopped me about 15 minutes in and said, I have some. I want to say something. And I am very good with my gut, and I can I have very good intuition on people.
Angie: And at the time that he started speaking to me, I didn't trust them. I didn't trust that he was being truthful with me, and I didn't... I'd only been sitting with him for 15 minutes and he apologized to me and was quite sincere in the moment, and I railroaded him. And I just said, that's not why I'm here. And I just kept going with questions. It didn't get to be about till an hour and a half in where I started to trust that he was giving me proper information and he was being truthful with me, and he was really wanting me to understand.
Kirstan: You had said that the first time you encountered this individual, he was 16. And fast forward, you know, all these years, would you say that he was more mature? What were some of the changes you would have observed?
Angie: He has. He had matured a lot compared to where he was like, if we think about it, the last time I saw him before that, he was trying to intimidate me in a courtroom. So when Dennis can tell you more about this too. But when he… When Dennis went to the offender to ask if he wanted to participate because it is their choice, he when he found out it was me, he made a comment of... I knew she was stronger than I thought. That's why I tried to intimidate her so much along those lines. So that was the last kind of piece of the relationship that him and I had, was him trying to intimidate me into thinking he was this scary monster. And when he realized it didn't really work and that I was the one that was wanting to see him, it kind of started me an understanding that he's not the monster. And possibly I could scare him, too.
Kirstan: That's really powerful. Would you say that as a result, you got a sense of closure or a control over the situation? Having said that. What would you say you got out of the process?
Angie: Out of the process, I got a lot of peace. I got peace within myself to know that well, one to know that I was right in a lot of my understanding of kind of who he was. I also got to a place with him that we were able to really have good conversation. We got to a place where we were able to understand each other a lot more and really able to talk about hard topics.
Angie: I was able to say things that I didn't know I was going to say. I didn't know that it would get to that. When you plan out a situation, you plan out your part and you don't know how the other person's going to react or if they're going to be open to the process. So, once I found that I could trust the process and that he was really involved in making sure I got what I needed. We did have some conversations that I wouldn't have thought were possible. We talked about the importance of a weapon. And when a weapon is given to a child, what conversation should come from that we were able to talk about his understanding of Indigenous culture and Indigenous beliefs, because I had taught that in my world, too. So we were able to come to a situation and have some really in-depth conversations. He was able to explain in great detail with like, maps and like he kind of drew and talked me through the day that my brother passed away.
Angie: And, um, I remember. I remember kind of how powerful that was and how when I asked some questions afterwards how he realized that he was wrong, and I remember him saying at one point that. Remember me saying that my parents and my family didn't know what I was doing, and I remember feeling a little bit like a traitor, because here I had met with this person, and I had talked a lot about my brother and a lot about kind of who he was as a person. And I remember feeling a little bit like a traitor. And because I was giving these kind of family secrets, which weren't secrets, but to the person that took took that away. And I remember kind of his response to that being.
Angie: I think you did something amazing for your family, because I now see your brother as more human than I ever saw him, and I now realize more of what I took away. So in my process of thinking that I'm doing something damaging to my family, if my family were to realize it, I think they or understand it the way that I see it now is that I was able to make the person that took something so important away from us, see the importance of it, and internalize kind of my brother as a father and a brother and a son.
Kirstan: Absolutely. So, I love how you use the word peace. When I asked you, what did you get out of this? And peace was the word you saw on the sign as you approach the institution. I thought that was really interesting...Is something you also found within this process? What advice would you give to those who are interested in participating in restorative justice? Some people might not be aware of the program. What would you say to them?
Angie: Um, I've done some speaking across Canada of my experience, and I actually had a conversation with my partner last night about this, and I said that I think victims are my biggest critic, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but if you haven't gone through something like I've went through, you don't understand the aspects of everything that plays on making this decision.
Angie: And I remember the only derogatory thing I thought about this program is I don't want the offender to get anything out of this. I don't want this to be like, oh, he went through this restorative justice, and now everything's okay with the person he's killed. Family. So let's give them props for that. And that's something that Dennis can tell you, of course, isn't the case. The offender can't talk about this situation and can't use it in any way. I was very worried at the beginning stages, that I would actually help him, like, possibly get parole.
Angie: And then what is my family going to think? And so I think it's important for victims to know that this is not a get out of jail free card for lack of better word for an offender. This is totally for a victim. And through the process, they make sure that you're not revictimized. But at the same time, even talking I could have talked a lot, in training sessions and PD sessions for people that do Dennis's job and they often ask me when is a good time to bring this up for victims.
Angie: And for some victims, I would say never. And for other victims, I would say that this should be always something that is brought up in a way of, have you thought about this situation? This is something that's available. Like it takes a lot of intuition, I think, to to know when a good time to say this is to people. Because like I said, it was very important to me to mention before how like the family counselor said, hey, have you thought about forgiveness? And we kicked her out of the house.
Angie: I know that's not what this program is made for. It's not made for me to go forgive somebody that took something from me. It's made for me to understand the situation and get the answers I need. So, for me, thinking about other victims, it's a hard, hard thing to do because I look within my own family and I don't know the proper way to do it. So, for me, I think having people like Dennis, who are so good at what they do is very important because they like by the end of the process, Dennis, I think, knows me better than anybody in my world because you really have to get to that place when you're trusting somebody with this.
Angie: Yeah, but yeah, the right answer is, I don't know, like even going through this process, I don't know when the right time is or when or who's ready for it. Right.
Kirstan: Absolutely. And I know for some people too, it took years and years like sometimes, um, five, ten years to be ready to have that initial meeting and the preparation that goes into it, the shaping of the room, the details, just the mental process. Like for some it's just a different journey.
Angie: Yeah. Even down to the smallest detail. I know I had like a half hour conversation with Dennis about what to wear like all the way down to like those decisions. It's like how do you as a woman go into a prison. Like, what do you wear? What do you do? What? What do I have to be thinking of? Right. So, it's. Yeah. So, it's yeah, it goes down to every little detail. Yeah.
Kirstan: And being able to visualize that as well. You were talking a bit about that and how you've, you had already visualized a lot of it in your head before it rolled out.
Angie: Mhm.
Kirstan: Well you've been so wonderful and gracious with your time. I just want to say a huge thank you for sharing your story. It's an important one. And uh, and your journey um, and again, I'm so sorry for your loss, but I am happy that you did get some answers and were able to have some peace out of this process. Uh, is there anything else that you want to leave us with?
Angie: I think the last part that I want to say is, I talked a little bit about forgiveness. And in my meeting with the offender, I was able to come to a place with him where I understood his background and his kind of where he was at in life when he took my brother that I came to a spot that I did find forgiveness.
Angie: And it wasn't in a way that I was understanding of what he took from me. I was very clear in how I forgave him, and I'm very adamant of the way I say it now because I lost a lot, our family lost a lot, and he took a lot from us. But dealing with the situation that I said as a teacher and taking a knife from my student and transferring that knowledge there to the knowledge I got from him, and I understood that, or I maybe thought if he would have had somebody like me in his world, would things have ended up the same? And during our meeting, I did express explain to him that I forgave him for who he was that day, and that I understand what led up to that, even though he took something that cannot be replaced.
Angie: I forgave him for who he was that day, and the reaction from that was something that I'll never forget for as long as I live. I was able to get to that place in meeting with him. I actually, after the first meeting we had, he wrote me a letter, and on the second day he asked if he could send it to me and I okayed it.
Angie: So then it went through Dennis. He doesn't have any of my personal information. And I actually have the title of that letter tattooed on my arm in his handwriting. And the reason I carry that one, it makes me remember that I scare murderers. And that's an important message to have. Sorry. That's my little spot of humor. And to it reminds me of how strong I actually am and how I can face somebody who took so much for me.
Angie: And it's something that Dennis and I talked a lot about because I really downplayed or I used to really downplay the process because I thought, if I can do it, anybody can. And then after going through the process and after thinking it through and after talking to other people, I've realized that not everybody can do what I did and how much that that tattoo was a reminder of how much I can put my body through.
Angie: And I'll come out stronger on the other end.
Kirstan: Well, thank you so much. And it isn't easy, I'm sure, to have gone through telling us all about this today, but I really appreciate your story, the impact you've had and, the important life lessons you've left us with today. So, thanks for taking the time. I really appreciate it.
Angie: No problem. It's part of me going through the process that I found was important is to give restorative justice the kind of advertising it deserves. Because, like I said, it's something that definitely changed my outlook on situations that I've gone through and changed me as a person. So it's something that's near and dear to me.
Kirstan: Now let's turn to our conversation with Dennis as a mediator with the Restorative Opportunities Program since 2017, Dennis has guided numerous individuals on their paths to healing. In our interview, he shares his perspective on the process and his experience working alongside Angie, helping her navigate her own healing journey. Well, I feel like I learned a lot about you through Angie and what she had to say. Sounds like she's made a lifelong friend through you.
Kirstan: Tell me a bit about how long you've been a mediator.
Dennis: Well, I've been doing this program for seven years. But in my previous career as a teacher and counselor, I have done mediations for 30 or 45 to 30 or 40 years. 45. That's too long. 30 years. Let's say that.
Kirstan: You're like, I'm not that old.
Dennis: Exactly.
Kirstan: Great. And what's the role of a mediator in this process of restorative justice.
Dennis: In this process. Mediator probably isn't the right term, but it's the term that has been used. Really we facilitate the process. We are on the front line of meeting with the people who are interested in the program. So, we assess are people ready for it? What are they looking for? And then we help design a program that fits for them. So as Angie talked about the design of where people sit.
Dennis: Everything you know who goes in first. All the details. But a bigger part of it is just working with the individuals on an ongoing basis. Are they ready? What is it they really want out of this and what are they prepared for? So some of the questions that we ask are about what if someone says something that you are not ready for and, and we will roleplay some of those things and go over that so that people go in as much as we can make it possible with their eyes open.
Dennis: So there aren't a lot of surprises in the sense of well I didn't really know that that happened, that sort of thing. So, people are really prepared, and that is our role to help them become prepared. And we're mutually supportive is how we talk about it. So I work both with the offender and with people who are harmed.
Kirstan: And so we talked a lot about the victim side of things or the people who were harmed in the process. How do you know if the offender is ready to have a productive, encounter with a victim.
Dennis: By also asking the questions around why do they want to do this. What is their goal? And often the first answer is well I want to help them. Well that creates an opening for us to talk about. You can't. You can't help them. This isn't your role. Your role is to represent yourself and maybe give some answers. And then possibly that could help someone who is harmed.
Dennis: But it's assessing their ability, their responsibility, their understanding of what happened in the event that got them to this point. And it's also helping them understand some of the pieces that have brought them there, their, their family history, that sort of thing. We're not counselors, but we do a lot of helping them understand the bigger picture around why did they do what they did? And what has he done since then? How are they working on their own understanding of themselves?
Kirstan: I like the way you talked about understanding the bigger process because those factors could be really important in how you may want to approach the design of a session with a victim and offender or how you want to ensure that success for both parties. So talk to me a bit about how in Angie's situation you approached that design and facilitating kind of bringing all the pieces together to make it successful.
Dennis: Well, in this in the situation with Angie she did the design, which often with others, the facilitator has to do a lot more of the designing. But Angie had an idea of what she wanted. And at the beginning we talk about, you know, communication doesn't necessarily mean in this process a face to face, sit down meeting. Okay. It could be it could be letter writing.
Dennis: It could be me doing somewhat of a shuttle diplomacy of she shares a question that she has, I take that to the person who caused harm, I get an answer. I take that back. So it's it's a variety of things And it's looking at what do people want? And he was really clear. Several times I brought up, well, you could write a letter and immediately would be, I'm not writing a letter. I need to sit with him.
Dennis: I need to be in that space where not only am I present in thinking, but my body is there. So she needed to bring her whole self. And so looking at the design with her was was simple in some ways pretty clear because yeah, she knew what she wanted. And that's really our goal is to help people meet their needs for some.
Dennis: For some people it's I just need to say one thing could be I just need to meet them, or I just need to walk into the room and know I can do that. And that's it. For others, I never want to meet them, but I need them to hear some messages from me. And often what happens then, they want to know the person's response. So, the answers do come back if they want them. And again, it's we're very we're very focused on what are the needs of the people that were harmed.
Kirstan: Mhm. And and when you're speaking with the offender do you note on some of the things that are no go zones for the victim for example, terms they wish not to be used or, subjects they wish not to talk about or is that done. And I'm talking about a face to face session, obviously. But if there right, there are things that you can set ahead of time as kind of the rules of engagement.
Kirstan: Does that help to mitigate any concerns or help the process be more successful?
Dennis: Yeah it does. And that's that's what our work is all about. The front end of this work is where we really put in the time and energy. When we've gotten to the point of feeling that people are ready, that actual face to face event. I wouldn't say it's simple, but it's it's less work in the sense of now the parties coming together, they're really doing the work on that day or in that moment.
Dennis: And we're making sure that everything runs as best as it can and stepping in when we need to. But it's those two individuals who are doing the hard work. Our hard work is up front trying to find out those answers. What are the what are the flashpoints that could be problematic for for either party? What what do we need to inform the other of that can alleviate some of the difficulties that that could happen? One of the fears that often comes up for people who have caused harm is, well, this is just an opportunity for someone else to yell at me and tell me I'm a terrible person and all of that.
Dennis: And we're really clear that we would never bring people together if we felt that was going to be the case. That's not the point here. The point is to have people communicate with each other, give some answers, and learn a little bit about what got people to this terrible situation.
Kirstan: Mhm.
Kirstan: So in terms of if somebody is kind of thinking about it, thinking about participating in such a program, but they're not quite ready to take that next step of calling you, what would you say to them.
Dennis: I would say take your time. And I would say find out more about this program. When my first call with Angie was all about informing her of the breadth of the program, what we get into, what we don't get into, and giving her information. I wasn't there to convince her that, okay, we got to get on this or anything like that. My role at that point is to help them understand that there is this program and ask your questions about it.
Dennis: Have a sense of what it is that that you want. And if you're not sure, then explore that. That could be with one of the facilitators in the program that could be with someone else. And we are also really pushing for other supports that people have. And Angie talked about, well, she basically did it on her own. Well, she didn't she had a lot of really good support, not her family because they didn't know about it, but she had friends and the doctor and other people that were in her court that were really valuable.
Dennis: When people don't have someone else, like if she would approach me and say she hasn't told anybody about anything like this, I'd have major concerns. So people have to think about it and have a sense of, is this for me? And as Angie said earlier, it's not for everybody. It really isn't. People aren't ready for it. And, and you have to be prepared to look inside yourself and to be willing to look across the table at someone that has caused terrible harm.
Kirstan: Mhm.
Dennis: And that that is a very difficult thing to do.
Kirstan: Dennis, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything else you feel our listeners should know about the Restorative Opportunities Program.
Dennis: One piece and this was this was hard for Angie to accept. And she's described this a little bit is just the time. This is not a quick process for a number of reasons. The major one being we want to make sure that the experience is really what people want and not causing more damage. I've worked in the field long enough to know that there are things that are called restorative justice that are problematic because they don't take time and individual's needs into consideration.
Dennis: It's more about numbers. It's more about what? We just have to get through this. This is really looking at healing and what the person needs as they define it for healing. So it's a long process. It takes time. The situation that Angie was in actually went very quickly. We started in October and by May they had had a face to face. One person might be really ready.
Dennis: Let's go. I that would be Angie in this case, but the the person who caused the harm was also very ready. Now, sometimes they're not. I had one situation where we had done all of our work, and literally, I met the person who caused harm in the parking lot as as he was walking towards the building. And he had a support person there, and he turned to her and said, I can't do this.
Dennis: And, and we both sort of raised our eyes and thought, we have just spent a year preparing you for this. And you are saying you can't do it. So fortunately, she was there, and she talked him down and he came in and they had a very powerful experience, both the person who caused the harm and the one who was harmed. But, yeah, we have to help people be ready.
Kirstan: I'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Angie for sharing her incredible story with us today, and to Dennis for accompanying her. We invite you to listen to part two of this episode, where we have a conversation with the offender involved in this case. We'll hear him speak to his experience in the program and the complex emotions surrounding healing for everyone involved. If you want to hear more stories like this, will include a link in the description below where you can read, listen and watch other experiences from our Restorative Opportunities program.
Kirstan: I've been your host, Kirstan Gagnon, and thanks for listening.