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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Good morning, Tom.
Speaker 2: Morning Paul.
How you doing?
Speaker: Doing well, although
we both have stomach issues
Speaker 2: it sounds yes, that's true.
Yes.
We were having a little conversation
about this, about yes, we're both
having digestive systems that are
maybe not operating at 100% of
their capacity, which is not fun.
Yeah.
But.
Oh, honestly, a good occasion for
a little bit of stoic philosophy
too, I think when you're, when
that kind of thing is happening.
Speaker: Yeah.
When everything is well down there with
your biome, you take it for granted.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Then, yeah.
Other times.
So Tom's getting a colonoscopy next week.
He's gotta skip the podcast.
That's right.
Yes.
How old are we?
I
Speaker 2: know.
Yes.
I'm feeling very old, but ugh.
Yeah.
It's the right thing to do.
The right thing
Speaker 3: to
Speaker 2: do.
Agreed.
But yes.
Feeling a little old.
But maybe that brings us in touch
as I say a little bit more with the,
with our favorite number one guy.
Speaker: Yeah, I think stomach
issues must have just been.
Just the most common
thing in this time period.
Like
Speaker 2: you, you would think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Although, I don't know I could,
I'm of two minds about that.
'cause I also think like, how much of
it in the modern day is about like a
billion sources of inflammation from
Speaker: okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Or whatever microplastics, or whatever.
Yeah, it that could be, I think
that's, that there's a very plausible
hypothesis where, I agree with you, but
I also think there's a version where
it's if you only ate some very basic
stuff and it was all grown near you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And everything
was pretty sanitary.
Sure.
I don't, although, I don't know,
they weren't washing their hands
much, so You're probably right.
No, they really
Speaker: weren't.
Yes,
Speaker 2: yes.
Yeah.
Speaker: A lot of these.
Like these things that, that sort of,
we've stopped getting in the, yeah.
In the modern world, like
tapeworms or whatever.
Yeah.
They evolved in the ancient world
where, like for example, yeah.
I forget what, which one this is, but
there's a version that just like wherever
you use the bath bathroom, it just, yeah.
Lives in the feces and
then crawls up your legs.
Ugh.
And then starts the cycle all over again
through your skin, by the way, burls
Speaker 2: into your skin.
Horrifying.
Speaker: And it just, yeah,
and it's just evolved that way.
It's so effective.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So they all
Speaker: just had to worms all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
You're right.
You win.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
And in, in modern day, it's
so uncommon to have tapeworms.
If you have like asthma
and the recommendation is
get a tapeworm, it'll help.
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker: It just, I know,
like for whatever reason,
it just regulates your body.
Oh.
If you have an asthma and you get
a tapeworm, the asthma goes away
and instead you have a tapeworm.
Speaker 2: Wow.
That's fascinating.
I've never heard that
Speaker: before.
And if you take a
tapeworm out, you're good.
Speaker 2: Is that true?
Oh, my.
What?
Okay.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's wild.
I've never heard that before.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know why.
I guess we, how strange we
evolved alongside parasites.
Yeah.
Like it's weird that we are now living.
San's parasites without
Speaker 2: them.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So they were a part of the deal.
Speaker: Yeah.
We had a kind of a symbiotic relationship.
Like these parasites
have these weird Yeah.
Like medicinal properties for us, right?
Yes.
But by no no work on their end.
They're just, it's just for whatever
reason, we were just so closely Yeah.
Entangled living together
Speaker 2: that it made sense for
them to do certain things for us,
to keep us around or whatever.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Like the longer that
they can keep us alive.
Better for them.
Better for,
Speaker 2: yes.
And all of a sudden our incentives
Speaker: are aligned with tapeworm.
Yes, totally.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Wow.
So much like the evolution of
the gut biome too, I feel yeah.
It's like what that's
putting me in mind of is the,
Speaker 4: yeah.
Speaker 2: I contain multitudes,
ed Young's book about.
Our gut biomes, which is
like exactly the same thing.
All these like.
Bacteria who are objectively don't
like us and are doing mean stuff to
us, also want us to be alive and yeah.
Yeah.
So they're, they have all
these kind of complicated yeah.
Ambivalent relationships with them.
Speaker: Keep your enemies close, yeah.
The same goes
Speaker 2: exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Really close.
All
Speaker 2: Yeah.
All right.
Some lovely food for thought
there for our reading.
Are reading today.
So we're in book eight and I
think we have a good chance to
make some good progress on it.
So let's dive in.
Yeah.
Okay.
I believe we're on entry
number 11 in book eight.
Perfect.
What is this Fundamentally great.
What is its nature and substance,
it's reason for being, what
is it doing in the world?
How long is it here for?
Speaker: What is he?
What is it, Tom?
What is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Classic entry.
Yes.
I know
Speaker 2: When he just asks questions
like this, I interpret the subtext
of the entry to be, here's a question
you should ask yourself frequently ah,
Speaker: sure.
Speaker 2: Constantly re constantly
ask yourself these things.
That's a good process.
And these do feel like the kind of things
that he's always asking himself which
are like these insanely 30,000 foot
view, like just any little interaction
he has with a human being, right?
It just feels like he's okay, let
me zoom out as far as possible.
Speaker: Someone tried to
give him a high five today.
Yes, exactly.
What is it fundamental?
What is this
Speaker 2: doing in the world?
Yes.
Speaker: How long is it here for?
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Which makes him sound like.
A total alien who has been
dropped on earth, I feel like.
Yeah,
Speaker: yeah.
He is talking about tapeworm, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
Speaker: Was its, what is its
substance reason for being?
Yes.
Speaker 2: What is it?
Yeah.
Okay.
It is an interesting question
that, how long was it here for?
Speaker: Like three to six months usually.
Yeah.
It comes out exactly.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I wonder if he had
some notion that they might be partially
beneficial in addition to annoying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He doesn't
Speaker: say explicitly.
One of his questions is not,
how is this beneficial to me?
Y
Speaker 2: yeah, that's true.
So
Speaker: he is not, he's not
like overdo it on silver lining.
He's just
Speaker 2: yeah.
He wants the, yeah.
Nature and substance.
It's reason for being,
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: Just kind
Speaker: of, it's just he is, I guess he's
a proponent of rational thinking, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
The alternative
Speaker: to asking these questions
is just being like, ah, tapeworm.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It's very, I think you're right
though that it's also, the other
thing that strikes me about this
series of questions is that it's
very self like there's nothing about
him going on in these questions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All of it is just look at it through a
telescope where you're not even involved.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And yes I think there's
another alternative is just
a more selfish perspective.
That's like, when I encounter stuff,
I care about how it impacts me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: He says, no,
take yourself out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Okay.
I think
Speaker 2: that's nice, but again,
I, it's like true in general,
but also runs the risk of being
like, if you zoom this far out.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Take this medicine somewhat
judiciously useful in really tricky
situations maybe, but not all the time, I
Speaker: guess.
Yeah.
It's like proto science or whatever.
I,
Speaker 2: yeah,
Speaker: fair enough.
Yeah, look at things rationally,
not, that's like step 0.1.
I feel like there's a lot
of steps after that, but,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
Yeah.
But it's a good start.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Number 12.
When you have trouble
getting out of bed in the
Speaker 4: morning,
Speaker 2: remember that your defining
characteristic, what defines a
human being is to work with others.
Even animals know how to sleep, and
it's the characteristic activity
that's the more natural one,
more innate and more satisfying.
Speaker: I love it.
I love getting up in
the morning with Marcus.
It's the best thing.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I guess maybe for the listeners, they
should know that Paul is being a real
trooper in the past couple months about
doing this podcast because he is living
in Hawaii and it is something like not
that long after 5:00 AM he woke up very,
wakes up very early to do this podcast.
And so Mark, this is not the first
time Marcus has talked about his
difficulties in getting out of bed.
Yeah, and I think, yeah.
So that has particular
relevance for us Now.
It's Okay, Tom,
Speaker: even animals know how to sleep.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's a funny
line of logic there about
Speaker: he loves shitting on animals.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes.
The distinction between evens and
animals is very important to him.
Speaker: It's supposed to be this like.
This kind of yeah, he is like
looking, it's supposed to be
like, oh, even animals, yeah.
Right away you're supposed
to get the meaning of this is
a, this is a lowly activity.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but
Speaker: it's, you have to
really read it that way.
Although it's wait.
Yeah, they do.
What do you mean?
Speaker 2: Yes.
I agree.
That even is doing a lot of
work there in his sentence.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Animals know how to sleep
would be a very weird, it doesn't,
Speaker 2: yes, it doesn't.
You would still get
what he meant, but Yes.
Yeah.
I agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am interested in his, like I, the
idea that the defining characteristic
of humans is to work with others Sure.
Is a very sure.
It's such a collaborative, like we
are the creatures of collaboration.
Yeah.
Is that's, it's there's some
interesting tension there, I feel
like, with such an individualistic
philosophy in general about how Yeah.
You can't rely on anyone and you
should just only worry about what you
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Can control.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm interested
to hear him say that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's nice.
I like it.
Speaker: This is the classic
entry that it's like.
It is, I forget, there's
the, there's a word for this.
We've talked about this concept
before, but where you, what,
where what you say reveals.
How you actually feel.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
We were talking about this recently.
Don't need to
Speaker: say this.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And also having said it, but
that's also, yeah, exactly.
Say more.
You're saying that he has to
convince himself to work with others.
He does not enjoy working with others.
He has, he hates getting
Speaker: up in the morning and he
hates working with others so clearly.
Okay.
Speaker 2: And, but he has to
build logical traps for himself
or arguments or whatever Exactly.
To say.
Okay.
Sleeping is something for animals.
Speaker: Don't be an animal.
Yeah.
You'll
Speaker 2: be, this is a more natural,
innate and satisfying thing to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: To,
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker 2: Wake up in the morning.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I, there's also this
thing going on here that I've been,
I was chatting with a coworker of
ours who likes reading about Greek
and Roman philosophy, Thomas Funk
and, we were talking about Aristotle
and Plato, who I know nothing about.
I'm not smart about these things, but I
read a little tiny bit about teleology.
Which is this like field of
philosophy that I, is really
associated with Aristotle, I think.
Which is the idea basically that
things are defined, like their
essence is by, is is what they do.
Essentially that everything
has an end or a purpose.
Okay?
Okay.
And that end or purpose is the
essence of the thing, basically.
So like an example would be a hammer is a
thing that like pounds, nails or whatever.
Okay?
And if you break that hammer so that
it no longer pounds, nails, right?
A teia, most people would say
now you have a broken hammer.
But a ologist might say,
that is not a hammer anymore.
It does not do, it has lost its hammers
because it cannot, it can no longer pound.
Males
Speaker 3: okay.
Interesting.
Okay.
Sounds good.
It's, yeah, so
Speaker 2: this is like weird, a
weird little tangent, but Uhhuh I
detected a little bit in this entry.
This, I think this kind of thinking was
very popular and I'm just interesting.
I have had my radar up to look for it
here because he's saying he's defining
human beings by a thing that we do.
There's not to be human is to work
with others, is what he is saying here.
Which is an interesting
way of defining humanness.
That's pretty far away from that is not
a very popular, modern philosophy for
the most part, we don't think that way.
We think we're humans first
and working with others is
one of the things that we do.
Sure.
If you stopped doing that, it
wouldn't make you not a human.
Speaker: I see.
Interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
Anyway, that's just my, I'm
trying to figure out how,
philosophical aside why that,
Speaker: I'm trying to figure
out why that philosophy would've
been useful to them at the time.
Did it help explain slavery or
like barbarians or something?
Yeah,
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question.
I, it's something that's discussed a
lot in the Socratic dialogue type stuff
where they're just trying, they're
being very abstract and philosophical
and trying to get to the bottom of
what does it mean to call something?
Or something.
And this is what they came up with.
But yes, that's a, that's an
interesting historical question
about why that was what they adopted.
I do not know the answer to that.
Speaker: I can Okay.
So in some, to some degree maybe
it's just they needed, they wanted
to build some axioms of the universe.
Yes.
Rather than trying to be like a cup
is anything that has one depression
and a second, finger hold and Yes.
Then you can press that.
Yeah, you can make that
start to be ridiculous.
Yeah.
They're just like a cup is anything
I can drink water out of done.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yes.
I think there is something nice
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker 2: About that.
And there's something interesting.
It's like there's a.
There, there's a parallel in
higher mathematics too, where yeah.
It's a very, that's a very functional
way of looking at the world, I think.
Yeah.
Where you start by taking algebra or
whatever, and you're like, Ooh, wow.
Variables can do everything.
Yeah.
And that's what like a lot
of math is for a while.
And then as you get to higher and
higher mathematics, everything
switches from being a variable
to being a function basically.
And that is what it's all about.
And I feel like they're
he's doing a move like that.
A little bit.
When you or teleology does that move,
they're like everything is action.
It's defined by what it does,
Speaker 4: and
Speaker 2: The meaning is in the
doing and not just in the being.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Anyway, that's my random aside that I
was learning about this week, so Okay.
Our
Speaker: meaning is in collaboration.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I.
The, in the action of it.
And I guess that part
feels very stoic to me.
The concept that we are defined by
the actions that we do, as opposed
to just by our being that, so I guess
in that way I'm recognizing him as
a descendant of that philosophy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Tom, before we move on, do you agree that
it's like we are defined by collaboration?
Species?
Speaker 2: No, I don't.
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: No.
Like there are other species that are
way more collaborative than we are.
Speaker: That's true.
That's true.
So maybe not, maybe
it's not, ants might be
Speaker 2: defi by collaboration.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
So you're saying maybe not uniquely,
but yeah, separating out other animals.
I don't know, I guess when you
think about what makes a human
or just what makes a person?
Is it that we're collaborative?
Speaker 2: No, I not I'm curious to
hear your answer to that too, but No,
I think a hermit who lives in the woods
for 50 years is still, is a human.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, yes, they have foregone part
of Yeah, what it, like human life,
but they're still a human, I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Do you, what do you think?
Speaker: I think I can see the argument
of we so much of being human is about
like growing up in a society where
a bunch of work has been done for
you and like all these cons, you can
just inherit all of these frameworks
and concepts and we're constantly
building on top of other humans.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: And so that we
don't have to reinvent.
Like I don't, I have no
idea how electricity works.
I just have no clue.
Yeah,
Speaker 4: sure.
So
Speaker: Just stuff like that.
Yeah.
So that's, yes.
And that make an argument that like
a hermit who has never interacted
with all of, society, all of human
Speaker 2: society.
Yeah.
He is more
Speaker: of an, is like in a wild animal.
Like I don't
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: We don't have
that much in common.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's interesting.
I think that's fair.
Yeah.
So that's a.
Yeah.
That's an interesting theory too,
where it's not just collaboration
with like your current existing
peers that you're hinting at.
It's also like we have this way of
collaborating with all of human history
kind of, or something like that.
Yeah.
That other animals have less access to.
Yeah.
Yes, we have history in a
way that other species don't.
Yeah.
That's a really interesting way of
defining what it means to be a human, yes.
Okay.
Truly, if you like, took
a human baby and left,
wolf child kind of situation where
they just get dropped in the woods
and get raised by animals or whatever.
I am still inclined to say that's,
we're splitting hairs, I still
lean towards calling them human,
but I see what you're saying.
That they have missed out on not
just a small part of what it means
to be human, but a pretty big
part of what it means to be human.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of cultural stuff.
Even if you take like
technology out of it, it's just
like I wonder how much.
Our, just the way we interact
with each other is cultural and
not, is nurture, not nature.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm cur I don't know actually but
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
I.
Speaker 2: I think a lot
Speaker: Food.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sorry, this is circling back to
something you briefly mentioned earlier
that I think is relevant to what you
just said though, which is high fives.
You were talking about in the
last entry you were talking about.
Yes.
Mark, someone has offered Mark as
a high five and he's what is this
fundamentally, which is very funny.
Okay.
The thing that is was on my
brain when you said that is.
It turns out, I've just learned this
relatively recently, that like we
know who invented the High five.
What?
And it happened like 40 years
ago, you would think, isn't it?
That blew my mind.
It's a guy who's like a manager
in major league baseball.
It's like we have, we possibly
have video evidence of the
first time humans ever did that.
Wow.
Even though I totally grew up.
Yeah.
And like just feeling naturally,
it's such an obvious thing to do.
Naturally, humans have probably been doing
this for millennia to celebrate whatever.
No.
There's a guy who's alive right now
who is the inventor of the high five.
Wow.
Which is insane to me.
Yeah.
There you go.
That's it's an example of Yes.
Some of the things that we think
are innate and whatever have been
around social, basic social behaviors
that have been around forever.
No, we just invented them.
Speaker: Wow.
Yeah.
Basically someone who doesn't
know what a high five is.
Not human.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Are they human?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's what's crazy about that is
it's everyone who ever lived aside from
the people who are alive right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: No, high fives are weird.
I get what
Speaker 2: you got Marcus
is how long is here for?
What is it fundamentally I get that
Speaker: perspective for a high five.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: Interesting.
Yeah.
So
I guess that's an example
of more of a cultural thing.
Speaker 2: Yes.
But yes, it's also one of, it's
part of our defining characteristic.
It's a part of working with
others is giving them high fives.
Speaker 3: Alright let's keep
Speaker 2: going.
Okay we'll move on.
All right.
Number 13.
Apply them constantly to
everything that happens.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 2: Physics.
Ethics logic.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a, he loves applying
things constantly into everything.
There's no que question about that.
That's his favorite thing.
Yeah.
His favorite thing is to apply
something very constantly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Sure, sure.
So if we wrote this on Marcus's
behalf, apply these constantly
to everything that happens.
Universality.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Constancy.
Yeah,
Speaker: constancy and
like oversimplification.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Vagueness.
Yeah.
Speaker: Vague vagueness.
That's right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
This is one of those situations
where I think this style of
thinking kind of one out over time.
Yes.
And so now we, yes.
We take it for granted, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: Yes.
It doesn't
Speaker: feel very radical to me.
Maybe at the time it was
a crazy thing to write oh,
Speaker 2: yes.
Yep.
I think that's right.
It's probably one that has aged less.
I also suspect that it's one where the
words physics, ethics, and logic Sure,
Speaker: sure.
Speaker 2: Probably have analogs
that meant something a little bit
different to him than they mean to us.
Yeah.
And so for us it's kinda yeah, whatever.
Duh.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: But for him, those might
be, those might have been more exciting
bodies of thought at the time that
were in their infancy wow, cool.
Yeah.
And.
We're yeah duh.
Speaker: What was physics?
Was physics, geometry back then?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the one in particular, like
what exactly he means by physics.
I'm pretty shapes, cur
shape, pretty curious.
Yeah.
Does it, does that mean math to him?
Yeah.
Or does it mean Yeah.
What does it, how is it
different from logic?
I assume it, like it has something
about the physical world involved, but,
Speaker: It's the elements.
It's the, yeah, exactly.
His, yes.
Speaker 2: The platonic solids.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would.
Okay.
That is one where I, it would
be fun to talk to a scholar or a
historian who could explain what
his concept of physics was like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Number 14, when you have
to deal with someone
Speaker: nice,
Speaker 2: ask yourself, what does
he mean by good and bad, if he thinks
X or Y, about pleasure and pain,
and what produces them about fame
and disgrace, about death in life.
Then it shouldn't shock you or
surprise you when he does X or Y.
In fact, I'll remind myself
that he has no real choice.
Speaker: Okay.
I'll start with kind
of a nitpicky comment.
X and Y.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That,
Speaker: that has to be
a translation, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
I think, yes, I we've seen
him use variables before.
It's always a little
bit clunky, I feel like.
And yes I think we are getting
the benefit of translation there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
All, so that aside, so he's saying
think about so let's think about someone
whose views are a little alien to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Who you have to deal with for some reason.
Speaker: Look at Campbell.
Okay.
You,
Speaker 2: You,
Speaker: you stumble into a
cannibal and you ask yourself,
what does he mean by good or
Speaker 2: bad?
You.
By good or bad, I guess
satisfying hunger is good.
Speaker: Yeah.
And yeah, there's nothing
bad about eating a human.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Starving is bad.
Speaker: Starving is bad.
So yes, if he thinks about
Speaker 2: starving, that's why.
And
Speaker: people,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: About pleasure and pain,
about fame and disgrace, then it
shouldn't shock you when he eats you.
Okay.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: sure.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hard to argue with you there, Marcus.
I think that's true.
Like why would it surprise, this
is this is just like a, yeah.
When you're, when you encounter someone
and there's something you have to do
with them, put yourself in their shoes.
Sure.
Think about what they're thinking about.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like this one's,
Speaker: it's a big thing to
say for an emperor because
Speaker 2: Yeah.
You don't really
Speaker: have to like, you can just
say this is how the world should work.
Yes.
And
Speaker 2: yes.
Speaker: I'm surprised when
someone doesn't behave this way,
and here he is being empathetic.
Speaker 2: Okay.
That's right.
This is empathy basically.
Yes.
That's totally right.
Okay.
First of all that first clause is really
funny when you have to deal with someone
is a very funny way to start a sentence.
Speaker: I feel like that could
even be a French man on it.
Yeah.
You have to deal with,
Speaker 2: with someone.
Ask yourself this.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes, I agree.
It's a nice encapsulation
of the thing that we like.
Yeah.
Love about Marcus, this constant Yes.
That we both love and make fun of him for.
Yeah.
Speaker: I also like the, like I'll
remind myself that he has no real choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's the most interesting
sentence to me actually.
Is that Yeah.
The way in which he's framing
people as being slaves to their
own beliefs there, where it's
Speaker: it's weird.
Speaker 2: Yes.
That's what do you make of that?
I guess what, sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead.
I asked
Speaker: you one way to look at it
was just he's saying, yeah, people
believe they're have hold their beliefs
really dearly, and so you should almost
think about it as if they had no ch
like they are bound by those beliefs.
So like really don't be surprised.
It's like doubling down
on, don't be surprised.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yes.
Speaker: That's one way to look at it.
What do you,
Speaker 2: what do you think?
Yes I agree.
I, what's interesting to me about
that is that feels like he's he's
doing this empathetic thing where
he's saying, listen, Marcus, not
everyone sees and thinks about the
world the same way that you do.
And so when you're interacting with
them, put yourself in their shoes.
And I think that's really sensible.
But then that last sentence,
there's this implication there
that people are extremely like.
Coherent and whatever they believe,
they will act in accordance with
their beliefs very strictly.
And that feels like Marcus is losing
the thread a little bit to me because
that's what you are like, Marcus.
But it's not necessarily
what everybody I see else is
Speaker: like That's funny.
That's really funny actually.
Yeah, so he, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right.
You have no real choice, Marcus, about
doing these things I feel like, but.
Other people are often
inconsistent and yeah.
Not sure about what they believe.
Speaker: That's very ironic actually.
Yes, Uhhuh.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Anyway, that, that was the big, so
Speaker: here he is trying to be
empathetic, and then it turns out he
actually has no empathy at the end.
Yeah.
He's,
Speaker 2: he's he just gets
so philosophical with it
that he loses the thread.
Speaker: That's a really good one.
I like it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's.
Speaker: Yeah.
Anyway.
That's funny.
He's trying.
He's trying.
Yes.
Speaker 2: He is trying.
Yes.
That is trying to relate to other people.
He's, everyone must
Speaker: have a moral code, right?
Yes.
Everyone must just believe good and evil.
Yes.
Oh
Speaker 2: right.
Everyone else is also a person
and has all the interiority that
I experience, which means they all
have equally complex, abstract,
philosophical, under logical frameworks.
Exactly.
Exactly.
For dealing with every single
thing that happens to them.
Speaker: Oh, this poor guy.
So remember,
Speaker 2: remember to respect those.
Yeah.
Speaker: It just, it's just like there's
just some randomness in the world
and Marcus just cannot deal with it.
Yeah, exactly.
He just can't handle it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's funny.
Speaker 2: Yes.
There's, okay, one last thought about this
is just that, I think you, you used the
word empathy to describe what he's doing
here, and I think that's totally right.
But there is this there's this thing that
happens in like developmental psychology,
I forget what it's called exactly,
but basically like at some point kids.
Infants go from only having really
their own concept of their mind
and like everything that they're
interacting with is just the environment.
Sure.
And then at some point they realize,
oh, other people have thoughts and
desires, and intentions and are doing
stuff in the same way that I'm doing it.
It's called like theory
of mind or something.
I'm forgetting if that's what it's
called, or something like that.
And it happens when you're like.
Three.
Wow.
Or something like that.
And it's what Marcus is basically
describing here is it's, he's describing
something that I think most human
beings basically discover when they're
like three years old or something.
Speaker: Alright.
That's a little, okay.
Alright.
I'm being, it's funny, I'm being a
little bit mean Dan, but that is,
Speaker 2: that is the
other thought I was having
Speaker: about Marcus
discovers theory of mind.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: exactly.
Yeah.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Okay, number 15.
Remember.
You shouldn't be surprised
that a fig tree produces figs.
Speaker 3: Here he goes,
Speaker 2: nor the world what it produces.
What a good doctor isn't surprised when
his patients have fevers or a helmsman
when the wind blows against him.
Speaker: Okay, so back to
just don't be surprised.
Yes.
Something surprised Marcus.
Yes.
What is it?
Something
Speaker 2: happened with where Marcus
looked at something happened to Marcus
and he was like, what is going on?
Yeah.
And he's going through a lot
of processes to deal with.
Yeah.
Surprises and Yeah.
Things that don't match his expectations.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I love my.
I love the line right after.
Don't be surprised when
a fig tree produces figs.
He just like the super lazy abstract, nor
the world what it produces the world it.
Speaker 2: Yes.
So yes.
One very specific example.
Then he's captured everything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Then just assume all the way out.
Yeah.
Anything in the world that is
produced should not be surprising.
Yeah.
But I, okay.
PC
Speaker: right there.
Speaker 2: All right.
Let's, we're being very mean to him
today, but I think maybe let's give
him, let's give him some good No
I'm, I agree with you, but let's, so
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: His point is
the whole world is FIEs.
Yeah.
All the stuff we see
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is
Speaker 3: explainable makes the
Speaker 2: product of exactly.
The kind of thing that would make it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then I think the
second sentence is interesting.
Because it, it's, he's doing the same
thing, but there's a bit of an a, a
change, which is that he starts talking
about how people in particular jobs aren't
surprised when they encounter challenges.
Both his patients had the doctor's
patients having fevers and the helmsman
with the wind blowing against him.
It's not just that.
Speaker 3: I see.
Speaker 2: So he's really
saying, don't be surprised by
the challenges that the world.
Offers you, right?
'cause whatever job you have, whatever
your role in the world is, your
Speaker 4: okay.
Speaker 2: The world is going
to produce things for you that
challenge you in that role.
Speaker: Yeah.
That is a different concept.
You're right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's not just a fig
tree producing figs, I think.
Speaker: Like a help specifically,
like with the, which direction
the wind blows is a good example.
It's yeah, that one does feel random.
It's not no, the wind always
blows into this direction.
'cause it That's right.
That's its definition
of good and evil, right?
Probably not.
I think yeah, it's a little bit, you're
right, it's a bit of a different concept.
It's,
Speaker 2: yeah, but he's
using the first concept of
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: Listen the world
produces the stuff that it produces.
Yeah.
We shouldn't be surprised by
the things we find in the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then sometimes those things
give, sometimes those things challenge us.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Don't be surprised
by that either because they're
just the figs of the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So I
Speaker: guess there's a third party here.
This, maybe this is what he mean,
nor the world, what it produces
and the world produces challenges.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
The
Speaker: world means, what it means by
good and bad is I gotta keep things spicy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Or what, yeah.
It just has its own agenda that Yes.
Yeah.
Effectively does that.
Yeah.
Where it just keeps things, yeah.
Not straightforward for you.
Yeah, because that is just
what the world is like.
It's not, in some ways, that's
not a very satisfying philosophy
to me, because it's just saying,
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: why are there
challenges in the world?
Because that's how the world is.
It's
Speaker: yeah.
It's not useless.
I'm thinking about this is how I'm
thinking about the stock market right now.
I can't, I've turned into like
my dad, I'm constantly sour
on whatever things are good.
I'm like, ah, here we go.
Get ready for a 50% drop that doesn't
recover for 10 years, but Okay.
I am I am in that mode
right now with the stock.
It's been such a good
run for such a long time.
And
Speaker 2: you're feeling
bullish, or sorry, bearish
Speaker: bear.
I'm feel feeling bearish and
I'm just preparing for it.
Yeah.
I'm not doing anything bad.
It, I'm not moving.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Assets around just I
Speaker 2: have.
I haven't yet either.
You're just feeling bad about it?
Speaker: I'm just, yeah.
I'm just like getting ready
psychologically for 50% of it to be gone.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: So I'm not surprised.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I think that's, we can scroll way back in
this book and you'd find some advice very
similar to what you just said, basically.
Yeah.
Where you should just expect
that to happen, and then Yeah.
Every day that it doesn't, ideally,
every day that it doesn't, you can feel
some gratitude that it hasn't happened,
Speaker: yeah.
Yeah.
I'm also on the precipice of
buying Bitcoin, which is like
a really important signal.
It's like a really valuable, I should
really be tweeting about this because.
What it means is that you
should sell your Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's right.
Yes.
Everybody who hears me say this
needs to sell their Bitcoin.
Yes.
Last time I bought Bitcoin.
Yeah, it didn't recover for six years.
So this is your chance?
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
Yes.
Speaker 2: The alarm has been sounded
on top of Paul Reid meditations.
Yeah.
This is sell sell your Bitcoin.
Speaker: Yep.
Yep.
I'm about to buy,
Speaker 2: which means
everybody get out of the way.
Yeah.
Speaker: If I'm buying
pick, like I'm the most
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: I know this about
myself and I'm still gonna do
it and it's still gonna happen,
Speaker 2: okay.
That's nice that you've at least Yeah.
Come to terms with that whole process.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Number 16.
Yeah.
Remember that to change your mind and
to accept correction are free Acts two.
The action is yours based on your own
will, your own decision and your own mind.
That's what I like.
Speaker: Yeah.
It goes against this whole, like I'll
remind myself that he has no real choice.
Speaker 2: Yes, it does.
Yes, it does do that.
Yeah.
I agree.
Yes.
He often has a very yeah.
Contradictory.
But, and a very kind of like static
concept of what your beliefs are
and how they lead you to interact
with the world, I feel like.
And this one is nice.
It's something I feel like
changing your mind is like a topic
that I don't know that I ever
remember hearing him talk about.
Yes.
I think this is lovely.
I think there's, I personally love.
A philosophy of being openness to changing
your, being open to, yeah, changing your
mind and learning and being corrected and
acknowledging when other people are right,
I think is just such powerful stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
It's a nice low ego statement.
He's definitely onto a new thread now.
He had three threads of like
everything is explainable, like Yes.
And now he's just saying.
It's okay to change your mind.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: It seems like the world has
thrown him a curve ball of some kind.
Yeah.
Constantly that he is reeling from a
little bit, but this is a very nice, more
so than some of the previous entries.
I think this, to me feels like a very
nice, humble way of processing that says,
Hey, it's not a violation of this whole
philosophy you've been building to update.
Yeah.
Love that.
Good stuff.
Marcus.
Number 17.
If it's in your control, why do you do it?
If it's in someone else's,
then who are you blaming?
Adams the Gods stupid.
Either way, blame no one.
Set people straight if you can.
If not, just repair the damage.
And suppose you can't do that either.
Then where does blaming people get you?
No pointless actions.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Woo.
Speaker 2: Okay.
There are a little bit
of heat on this one.
Speaker: Yeah.
I feel
Speaker 2: like
Speaker: Yeah.
A little bit of heat.
Very kind of control what you can control.
Speaker 2: Yes.
This is a pretty nice
distillation, I think.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The first question, if it's
in your control, why do you do it?
Is a pretty I'm assuming the,
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker 2: It here is something
bad that happened or something.
Yeah.
And so he's saying you, you dummy.
Why did you do that?
That thing, if you were
really in control of it.
So that's a little self punishing.
It is for my taste, but I like the
thinking he does afterwards about saying,
okay, if this thing was out of your
control, blame is a useless concept.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
This reminds me of the, louis
CK skit where he's just you
don't have to do anything.
You don't have to pay that,
you don't have to go to the DMV
and get your car registration.
Yes.
Return
Speaker 2: your rental car.
Yeah.
You
Speaker: can just, yes, you
could just kill yourself.
Yes.
Like you, you can like you
that, you can do that once,
Speaker 2: right?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker: Anyway but yes, but
that, that, if it's in your
control, then why do you do it?
It's like.
It's your, it's in your control.
You get to choose, you can
always kill yourself instead.
Yes.
Speaker 2: It's very bleak, but yes.
Agreed.
I, and I think you're, I think you're
totally right that, like the heart
of that joke is this like weird
thing about to what extent are we in
control of our lives, which is like,
Speaker 3: yeah.
His
Speaker 2: point is much more
than we think, but only in a
very dark, bleak kind of way.
Yes.
And I think that's right, or at least is
engaged in a very similar conversation
to Marcus here, where it's like thinking
very hard about what's in your control.
And in this case, he's actually, I
feel like the emphasis is almost in
the other direction here though, where
he's saying he's really encountering or
talking a lot about a situation where
he's not to blame and he needs to just,
or like he's not right in control.
But yeah, his instinct it seems
is to blame something or someone.
Yeah.
And he's being like.
That's pointless.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
So the no pointless actions, you're right.
He spends most of the century
talking about don't spin
your wheels unnecessarily.
Yeah.
So no pointless actions is
like regret or complaining or
Speaker 2: Blaming someone for
kind of a pointless reason.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do, I wonder how you think about this.
He.
I think our very first or second ET
of the day, he says our character, our
characteristic thing is working together.
And I am in general, sympathetic
to his line of reasoning here.
That blame for the most part.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is not that helpful a thing.
Often blame is not super helpful,
but in the rare cases where
blame actually is helpful.
Yeah.
It's to help us work together.
Better.
Sure.
It's the, I don't blame is maybe
not exactly the right word.
Sure.
But like responsibility.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Accountability are things
that do help us pretty significantly
in human beings quest to do what he
thinks is our defining characteristic.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Yeah.
I just, there's something, there's
some kind of tension there where he's
saying Blame is always pointless here.
Yeah, maybe I'm just being a
jerk and just saying, ha caught
you in a contradiction, Marcus.
No,
Speaker: I think the essence
of what I'm hearing from you is
something I struggle with as well.
It's sure, control what you can control,
but then defining the things that you
control and don't control is really hard.
And Yes, and fraught with traps.
Totally.
Because that's the whole shtick.
If I, yes.
If it's my company,
how much can I control?
Theoretically everything, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Like totally, yes.
So therefore I should feel
guilty all the time, right?
Yeah.
So that yes.
So if someone, whatever, if
you're, if like blaming someone if
like fixing the underlying issue
falls under your purview then
Speaker 2: yeah.
Then blaming someone is a
part of the toolbox to Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Speaker: You're not blaming Adams,
you're it's part of your job.
Like
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yes.
I think that's totally right.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think that is, it is just our perpetual
complaint, unfortunately, about this
philosophy, which has nice aspects to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But yes, there's this
constant begging the question
of okay, but how do I know?
Yeah.
What is under my control?
Yeah.
And I wonder too, I think as
if that question has gotten
unfortunately more difficult.
To answer rather than less difficult
to answer as time has gone on between
Marcus's day and ours, where I just think,
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker 2: lucky as we are to live
in the day that in which we do.
We are more powerful, autonomous, free
agents than people were back then.
And so the sphere of our control
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Has
Speaker 2: grown with our liberty.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so we have this
really difficult version of
Marcus's question all the time.
Yeah.
Speaker: It's like a, it's like
a sliding spectrum, the more you
wanna believe that you're not in
control, you get a happier life.
Yeah.
Or like a more, more satisfied
life, the more you wanna
believe that you are in control.
You, yeah.
It is probably less happy, but you
can like, make more things happen.
The example I'm thinking of is just like
kids, like some parents are just like.
Absolutely.
You don't, it's, they just come out
the way they come usually when you
have your third one or whatever.
It's yeah.
I don't know.
It's just it's completely
random as all nature.
Speaker 2: They are the way they are.
Yeah.
They are the way
Speaker: they are.
That's the third.
The parents and the third child.
And then the first child,
like immigrant mentality.
Yes.
Speaker 2: You're playing
baby Einstein and Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
I am going to craft this thing
into my, mold it into my image.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
So that, those people may both be
stoic, but just have very different
perspectives on what they can control.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's nice.
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
And I think, I guess thinking back to
Marcus's context, it makes sense why that
he's the guy writing this philosophy.
'cause of all the people living in
his period, he's the one who probably
I think had the something resembling.
The most, like our modern lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Just in terms
of the, his sheer power.
Yeah.
Amount of like control to do stuff
and control over his own life.
Speaker: And the amount of gray area
that he had to deal with was very large.
That's true.
Yeah.
Yes.
Probably.
Speaker 2: Whatever working were acting
like, whereas powerful, as dark as he was
probably a lot more powerful than we were.
Probably actually had a much
worse version of this problem
even than we do now, I think.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But.
Anyway.
Yeah.
He's an, he is an interesting
point of historical reference
for that aspect of our lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 2: All right.
I think we should maybe wrap it up.
Let's do there this time.
I think that's a nice ending point.
Speaker: Yeah.
We made some progress.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yes.
And mean, we made fun of Marcus
a little bit, but also recognized
some of his valuable thoughts yeah.
Yeah.
Can't ask for more than that.
Speaker: Agreed.
Let's we'll reschedule our call next week.
Yes.
Let, yes, may we both control our bowels.
Yeah.
Especially you.
I keep like placing myself into
your, you've got a much, you've
got a much bigger problems.
No.
Speaker 2: Okay.
I hope not.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Alright, taa.
Speaker 2: Alright.
See ya.
Speaker 3: Bye.