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The voice of the American Consortium for Equity in Education at ace-ed.org | Host Larry Jacobs facilitates rich discussions with innovative educators, thought leaders, authors and the leaders within the education industry to promote equity, access and opportunity for every student in every school.
I'm David Cicero, and this
is Education Talk Radio.
Chronic absenteeism.
RAND's newest estimates on absenteeism
suggest that roughly twenty-two percent
of American students were chronically
absent during the twenty twenty-four
twenty twenty-five school year.
That's about eleven million students
and a big jump from pre-COVID levels.
This is actually personal for
me, and I'd imagine that this
touches every educator listening.
I keep thinking about a student
I had who was chronically absent.
I couldn't get him to come to class.
Right before summer one year, he came
to me, and he said he really liked math,
I'm a former math teacher, and he wanted
to do some work over the summer, and I
gave him an old algebra book with a long
list of assignments, maybe too long.
Months later, I showed up for professional
development before school was starting
in the fall, and I found that book on
the ground outside my door with papers
sticking out of the page of the book.
Every assignment completed.
No grade, no credit, no
accountability system, and no
guarantee anyone would even notice.
He didn't come back to
school the next year.
I never heard from him again.
I just keep thinking to myself, even
to this day, what, fifteen years
later, "As a school, what did we miss?"
And I've brought on Jen Perry today.
Over the past 30 years, Jen has
worked with students in classrooms,
dormitories, residential treatment
settings, alternative schools, and
community-based youth programs.
She spent much of her career
supporting young people facing
some of the most significant
barriers to engagement and success.
When we're talking about why students
disconnect from school and what it
takes to bring them back, there are
few people I can think of better
equipped for this conversation.
Jen, I'm so delighted that you agreed
to come on and talk with me today.
Thank you so much.
Oh my gosh, so am I.
And what a, what a powerful story.
Got my, my brain spinning and, and
thinking about, um, all the things
that impact, you know, our students
disappearing from the classroom.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's such a, it's, it's
such emotional work.
Um, and I think that that's why this
discussion today is so, is so important.
To kind of kick us off here, you
know, I was, I, I follow you on
LinkedIn, and I was reading your, uh,
new attendance article series there.
And one of the ideas that you wrote about
or you're writing about is that attendance
is the signal, not the problem itself.
What do you mean by that?
Well, I mean, the, the story
that you told is, is such a c-
a clear example of that, right?
Attendance, for me, is the visible
symptom of something deeper, right?
Usually a breakdown in
connection, belonging, essential
needs being met, or purpose.
And your story, you know, is such
a good example of y- your desire to
want to know more about that story
that happened before the absence,
uh, or disappearance of that student.
So for me, and, and I've worked in,
um, you know, both elite boarding
school settings and in juvenile
diversion programs and, and the
thing that I've learned is when a
student stops showing up, the absence
really is the visible signal that
something underneath isn't working.
It might be a fractured relationship,
a sense of not being seen, maybe a
lack of safety, or a belief that school
has really no relevance in their life.
Maybe they're trying to meet,
you know, survival needs or, or
things that really take priority.
And that if we only respond to the
attendance number, which is, you
know, because schools are, are so
busy and there's so many things that
really we have these systems where a
number does flag concern, we miss the
developmental story that it's pointing to.
Um, and, and attendance improves
when those underlying conditions
of the things that we were just
talking about also improve, right?
It's, it's, it's importantly tier one
work to help students feel connected,
known, and part of something that matters.
Sounds like the essential starting
place here is to recognize it as not
the problem itself, as the signal.
That's the essential starting place.
But what role have you seen families
play in terms of a student's connection
with the school and the educators there?
Um, that's such an interesting question.
Um, uh, and I think it's, y- you
know, the, there are these sort of
universal truths, and then there
are the, the layered complexities
of every person's individual story.
So, you know, we know that families
are really essential to kids' success
in school and, and schools know that.
Often schools will ask, um, to, you
know, they're trying to increase
family engagement, which, you
know, is an interesting thing.
I had a, uh, my own child had
a, a 504 plan, and I've spent my
life working on understanding the
function of behavior and, uh, how to
optimize that in the school setting.
So of course, um, schools wanna
see people coming, but sometimes
not always people like me, right?
Because- Oh, okay.
Yeah ⦠because I'm gonna really
push the system and, and the system
is overloaded with students' needs.
And so there's this, um, real
desire to have, um, families
engaged, and also I think a gap in,
in knowing how to leverage that.
And then additionally, you have
everybody's, um, life of experiences,
and some parents have really strong, good
experiences with education systems, and
other families have been disenfranchised
with, with education systems.
Some families, you know, meet the basic
needs of their, of their children and,
and have the head space to come in and,
and talk about higher level, um, learning
and, and other families are trying to deal
with childcare and put food on their table
and, and, um, and sometimes, um Sometimes
we default to thinking that those folks,
uh, don't care or are not engaged, but,
but really, really do and, and, and are.
And so it's, it's such an importantâ¦
But honestly, families know
their children best, right?
And they're, they're, uh, a catalyst
for helping schools understand the
context of their children's lives.
And when we're talking about connection,
belonging, and meaning, we need to know
the context of children's lives, and
we can't leave families out of that.
So does that suggestâ¦
So when we think about, you
know, we say this, this word all
the time, stakeholders, right?
So we've got students, we've got
the educators, we've got families.
It sounds like if I were drawing lines
to connect, to connect stakeholders
together, it sounds like there should
be a line, and there oftentimes there,
there, there is, but how do we strengthen
that line from school to family?
'Cause what you just told me was, you
know, families have that lens, right?
Yeah.
The parents have that lens as to what's
going on, uh, in the student's life.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, f- students live, you know,
this is a big sort of concept, but right?
We have this eco-cultural niche, so
school happens within that context.
And, you know, sometimes we're talking
about attendance here today in some ways,
and, uh, if you think about, uh, a s- if
we drew a story, I'm a storyteller, and
y- you had a, a young child who, um, whose
parent, uh, w- worked particular hours,
had childcare issues and transportation
issues, and that young child, um, was, you
know, they were unable to get that young
child to school, and that young child fell
a little bit behind and, and it made it
harder for them to go to school and right?
That's, that's not an
intentional attendance problem.
That's a, that's a sort of
hierarchy of needs logistic problem.
And that, that as it develops can, uh,
lead to behaviors later in life that, um,
have kids have different understandings of
the importance of attending school, right?
And so, uh, w- we have to understand
that complicated interweaving,
and we have to engage families and
their needs in order to, in order to
tackle some of these harder things.
Are you seeing technology play a part
in greater disconnection that- That,
that may be, uh, an underlying cause
of, you know, leading to attendance
issues, causing students to disconnect
further from the people around them.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like this could
be its own conversation, but quickly
I'll say, you know, I've, I've a
friend, uh, and some connections
of folks who are dealing with, uh,
something they call bed rot, right?
Where, uh, in clinical circles
where kids are sort of staying
home and staying on technology.
And, um, so there's that, uh, pull
away from school into, uh, something
that, uh, you know, honestly sort
of hits the dopamine in interesting
ways and keeps kids engaged.
Uh, you know, we know that a lot of
the things that kids and, and, and
adults are on are, are designed to
keep us engaged in those and, uh,
that can have an impact on school.
And then, and then there's
the other question about how
technology is used in school.
And I was i- in an interesting
conversation recently with, uh,
a superintendent who's doing some
really excellent work on building, um,
connections and restorative practice
and trying to address and, in fact,
having addressed the, the differences
in, in, uh, suspensions between,
um, uh, different demographics.
So we see higher suspensions in, uh,
kids of the, uh, representing the
global majority and kids who have IEPs.
And, uh, they've been working really
hard on that, and what they've found
is that, uh, seeing those kids,
connection, understanding their
stories, working with them on, on,
on different opportunities matter.
And yet, often, uh, parents
in-- respond and say, "Well, my
kid's on the computer a lot."
It, uhâ¦
I'm gonna, I'm gonna flag something
that happened after COVID.
I don't know if you remember this, David,
but there was a Tik- viral TikTok thing
that happened after COVID, where when kids
went back to school, they were destroying
property in, in schools, like pulling
the bathroom sinks out, things like that.
Do you remember that?
Oh, no, I don't.
No, I don't.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't think I saw that.
Well, there was this, this moment, and,
and for me, and I wanted to talk about
that moment for so long because what
happened, I think, during COVID is, is
that, um, uh, virtual interactions became
really essential to staying connected.
Kids used, you know, social media more,
and their, uh, uh, school was virtual,
and they weren't in that space, and they
weren't having the opportunity to have
the, uh, interpersonal connections, uh,
in real time in the way that they did.
And one of the things I learned a
long time ago, early in my career
around, um- Around behavior is that,
uh, kids' behavior changes when
they feel invested in something.
And, um, so for instance, they take
better care of the environment they're
in if they feel like it's their
environment, if they feel connected to it.
And, um, and I do think that there is
this tension right now between, um, the
sort of interpersonal physical connection
and the way that all of us, in many ways,
are drawn into ourselves and onto screens
and, uh, and the impact that that has.
And, um, you know, I think, I think
it's a really interesting conversation.
On the flip side, I think that, you
know, technology used well with critical
thinking in, in, in, um, very specific
places, uh, can be super helpful.
I was talking to someone who works
with neurodiverse students who tend
to self-isolate in, in this case, and
really wanted to be on the computer.
And, uh, we were talking about the,
uh, the power of a social story and
having, um, a student even create
a social story online but then
have to practice it in real life.
So you get that sort of boost with
the technology, but then you have
that secondary requirement of having
that tangible real-life practice.
And so, I mean, I think as with anything,
it's, it's leveraging and moderation
and identifying your goals and, and
seeing how those things work together.
How do we preserve this connection?
How do we nurture it, Jen?
Between ed- educators and students,
and the school and the students, right?
The learning environment
and students Yeah.
I mean, there's, there's some really
good, um, well-vetted research out there.
Um, I'm a fan of the work that
the Search Institute has done
on developmental relationships.
And, um, y- uh, I don't know, tw-
25 years ago when I was working
with, uh, kids who were placed in
a residential school K through 12,
um, for behavioral needs, one of the
trainings we went through was around
the Search Institute's developmental
assets, 40 developmental assets.
So the f- 20 things kids need internally
and 20 things kids need externally
that help them thrive basically, right?
They do better in school.
They get along better with people.
They're more likely to,
uh, see s- see success.
And, um, and so I've focused a lot
on trying to figure out how to build
those, and the sort of iteration
that came out of that a, a number of
years later was, um, that they began
to focus very heavily on the concept
of developmental relationships.
And if you're a teacher, if you're
in a school, you know, right?
Relationship is, is pivotal.
It's, it'sâ¦
We used to say relationship is everything.
But we don't always have time to build it.
We've got a lot of, a lot of things going
on, and we don't always have the tools
or the skills ourselves to know how to do
that, and particularly to know how to do
that with kids who are hard to work with.
Um, so I really like the, the
framework that the Search Institute
has that talks about- How a teacher
can, uh, cultivate relationship.
And it includes things that we
sometimes worry about, which is like
keeping expectations high, right?
Uh, sometimes we think that when we talk
about relationship, it's touchy-feely
and, and sort of like, um, uh, compassion
and, and empathy and all those kinds
of things, and maybe associate that
with a lowering of expectations.
But it's very clear from the research
that, you know, having a high
expectations that are developmentally
appropriate and within the range of
the skills of the student, um, is,
is essential to, um, to building that
connection 'cause kids wanna learn.
They wanna, they wanna have meaning and,
and so I recommend taking a look at that.
In your articles on LinkedIn, you describe
an exercise called relationship mapping.
Yeah.
I'm wondering if you could, um,
tell us about that a little bit.
Yeah.
Th- that, I love relationship mapping.
Uh, you know, it's, it's a
exercise that came out of Harvard,
uh, a number of years ago.
And, um, uh, before I went into
the ed tech world, I was working in
Rochester, New York, and I was on a
consortium where we were looking at
re- you know, um, resilient learning.
Um, at the time, that's what,
how we were referencing it.
And I did work with a whole
bunch of school districts,
and we, we used this practice.
Um, I ran a training where we used this
practice of relationship mapping, and
basically, it's called the Dot Project.
And, um, it's a simple, structured way
for adults to see which students have
meaningful connection and which don't.
So what I love about relationship
mapping is that it's a tier one strategy.
Schools can do it for everybody.
It gives you visibility into the
universal experience of students, right?
If you, if you, uh, if you do the
modification that I'm gonna talk about,
not just the ones that are already on
your radar for interventions, right?
'Cause we're paying a lot
of attention to those folks.
Relationship mapping, it asks staff to
look at a roster and to put a dot next
to the students that they have strong
and trusting relationships with, and
there's some definitions around that.
And, um, and basically, we had all
staff, um, look at rosters and, and
put dots next to kids who they thought
that, uh, would come to them if
there was an issue and they thought
they had strong relationship with.
And, uh, what it reveals is that
every school has students who are
surrounded by adults but not all,
not yet connected to some of them.
And, um, and so the, the sort of the
staff version, once staff see that, it c-
it can shift the conversation from like,
"Ugh, why is this kid acting like this?"
Or, "Kids these days," to, "We have
a relational gap that we can close."
And the, the part that I think is
really important to add is that you
have students put dots next to teachers
and, and staff and, you know, the bus
driver and the, the, the janitor, and
all those folks put dots next to the
staff that they feel connected with.
Because, you know, David, sometimes,
sometimes we think we're connected,
but that connection isn't resonating in
the way that we, we think it might be.
And th- having that data from both
sides allows you to really narrow
in on those gaps and say, "Oh yeah,
you know, um, my perception of how
close I am to David is, is accurate.
David reflects that."
Or, "Huh, something's, s-
something's not jiving.
I'm not communicating this in a
way that, that David's hearing,"
and, and that they see that.
Uh, it creates shared ownership, it
gives school a starting point for
intentional connection building, it
helps you triage your MTSS systems
and, um, uh, it's really pretty cool.
Yeah, I love this.
I absolutely love this.
The, uh, when you first started
explaining this, I wrote this down
here, and it was not just your, not
just the students that you have, um,
slated for, for intervention, right?
Let's look at all students,
because, you know, we don't
understand what connections exist.
And, and you also mentioned that once
you start putting these dots, you start
identifying students that are, that are,
that could be feeling essentially alone.
Right.
I mean, some students have, you,
right, you see it right in front of
you, plain as day, visually, hey, this
student, that student does not have a
connection to a person here, um, that
they can, they can go to, they feel
comfortable with, that they'll, um,
they'll accept expectations from, right?
Um, and share with.
And what's interesting is, um, you
mentioned, didn't you just mention
doing it, having students do a similar
activity to s- to, to, to show who,
uh, who the adults are that they
feel they have a connection with?
Yeah.
You mentioned that just now, right?
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
You know, I had a wh- when I was
teaching, there was a, um, there
was a, a, a young man that was,
um, that was one of my students.
Um, he ended up getting seriously injured
in a, in a car, in a car accident.
And, um, w- we, we heard about
this, and then the next day,
um, now his, his girlfriend was,
um, one of my students as well.
And the next day after everybody
knew what had happened, it was,
it was, it was fairly tragic.
Um, I mean, she came to me and gave me
the biggest hug, and, "Oh, you know, Mr.
Cicero, I can't believe this."
And I thought- I didn't know
I had that connection, right?
I didn't know that she
felt connected to me.
Uh-huh.
I, I really, I honestly didn't.
Right.
I wouldn'tâ¦
If, if you'd have asked me, you
know, "Which students do you feelâ¦"
Well, if, if I, if, if I did the
dot project- Right ⦠I probably
wouldn't have put a dot next to her.
Right.
Right?
And so that, I started thinking,
how do I know when I have a
deep connection that perhaps-
Exactly ⦠I'm un- I'm unaware of?
Yeah.
Right?
That there's influence that,
that, that you have that could
be, um, important to know about.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And in that way, I mean, I, I suspect
that doing a project like that, right,
if, if we knew this, if we knew what
students, um, didn't ha- didn't feel
like they have connections, if we
knew of students that a- that appeared
to not have any connections, we can
strategize, strategize around this.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think you also write about,
um, you know, that, that there's a,
there's a difference between caring
about students and systematically
measuring connection, that they're,
that they're two different things.
Can you speak a bit about
why that distinction matters?
Yeah, yeah.
And, and I just wanna say before I pivot
into that, one of the most exciting
things I think about that mapping
project is the kids that Are quiet.
The kids that are not causing trouble,
the kids that are sitting there and
they just don't have connection.
And you can, you canâ¦
Those aren't the kids you would see
or identify any other way, so I, Iâ¦
That's another reason that I really
like that, and maybe this young lady
is, is in that category that you did.
Mm.
But, but to answer your question about
why that distinction matters, the d-
sort of difference between caring and
measurement is, right, caring is a belief.
Measurement is a practice.
And educators, we know
educators care deeply, right?
You can't go into education without
some, some level of really wanting to
be invested in the outcomes of kids.
But caring alone, it doesn't
tell you whether every student
actually experiences connection.
Measurement gives you the visibility
into it that you were just talking about.
It helps you see patterns, identify gaps,
track where your efforts are working.
Without measurement, connection stays in
the realm of like, we hope it's happening.
But with measurement, it becomes
something you can really intentionally
and equitably strengthen.
And so for me, that's the distinction.
Like, I assume that most of the
educators and, and people in schools
that, you know, we work with care.
Um, but we don't know if
that's always conveyed, right?
So you have toâ¦
There's a phrase, right?
We measure what's important to us.
Mm.
As a, as a part of that relationship
mapping, I, I, I understand it for
the most part, um, the DOT Project.
I understand the importance of
measuring it, what it can tell us.
As a part of workshops like that,
do, do educators also learn how to
connect with students in a way that
they will see it as a real connection?
Yeah.
I mean, I think, I, I think that
is one of the powerful things.
And Um, w- one of the things that
gets elevated are the people that are
really good at that kind of connection.
Right.
And, um, in, in our, our PLC, our peer
groups, in our, you know, learning at
this point is a team experience, right?
Nobody's out there doing
it on their own anymore.
We've got, we've got too many
things we need to address.
And so just like with any initiative,
you identify people who have really high
skillsets in something, whether it's
math teaching or, or, or, uh, connection.
And, and people can learn from each other.
They can say like, "Ooh, I thought
I was connecting, but, but there,
there's something here that's not,
uh, being conveyed in the w- in,
you know, aligned with my intent.
But I see over here that X
person is really good at, at it.
What are the kinds of thingsâ¦"
You know, also connection
is personal, right?
It's about being your authentic self.
Y- kids want to connect to people
who, who they see as, as, as sincere.
But absolutely, I, it gives you
the opportunity for skill building.
Um, it gives, uh, you know, one
of the ways that we used it is, is
in supervision, and I, you know, I
know that scares people sometimes.
And one of the things I spent a
lot of time as an administrator
doing is debunking that
supervision is correction, right?
Supervision is about growth and looking
at the areas where we can, uh, you know,
sort of without, uh, consequence, uh,
continue to, uh, have a growth mindset
and think about, uh, building our skills.
And so really good supervision
can take some of this data and
help people, um, build skills
they, they might not have had.
And the honest answer, a- and I,
at one point I went in and I talked
in an education department at a,
at a college in, in Rochester.
You know, we don't spend a lot of
time educating our educators about
behavior And about the i- importance
of, uh, how to build connection.
We talk about that it is important
to build connection, but the, the
how we do that, and particularly
how we do that when it's not easy
is, uh, is something I think, uh,
there's a lot of, of professional
development opportunity around, and
this certainly is a threshold for that.
Yeah, I was just thinking about that.
I was probably one of those teachers-
⦠that needed, I, I was, you know?
Yeah.
I, I, I remember, uh, another, um,
a teacher on staff was the drama
teacher, and if, you know, after
school and then during some down times,
they loved being in his classroom.
I mean, they, they just
flocked over there as groups.
And I, I just thought to myself- Yeah
"Well, you know, I, I, how
do I, how do I get that?"
Right?
What, what am I, what am I missing?
But I like this relationship
mapping exercise because of that.
'Cause what I'm hearing is you, you
identify who potentially needs connection.
Right.
So not only does it tell you there's,
there's, there's problem areas
here, it tells you exactly who.
It also tells you, um, who can reach
out and work with students that, that
may be, that may be struggling, right?
'Cause we see, you know, Johnny has
a connection to these three teachers.
You know, those three teachers
are probably, you know, f- fairly
well equi- equipped to help Johnny
when he's struggling, right?
Or to be involved in those,
uh, maybe behavior discussions
or academic discussions.
And then it also tells you where
there's opportunities for teachers,
like you just said, right?
Well, not just opportunities for
teachers, but it expands your
perspective on the community, right?
So it could be that, uh, that Johnny
is, uh, really close to the, the lady
who works at the front desk, and they
have really meaningful conversations,
and that maybe because that's the person
that is resonating w- with Johnny,
we need to equip that person with a
little bit more information to- Mm
to leverage that relationship.
Maybe it's the bus driver who really
knows, um, Johnny becau- and knows they
have to wait a couple extra minutes
because there's something that's going
on, and they can give you insight that
you wouldn't have had if you were just
sitting in a, in a classroom wondering
why Johnny's falling asleep or, or, or
the person who's in the lunchroom, right?
It, it expands our understanding
of, uh, where kids find connection.
Right.
Okay, okay.
So s- also telling us where we
can strengthen our resources,
where we can strengthen our
community for, for every student.
Yeah.
Interesting.
If we're thinking about school
leaders listening today, what's one
thing that they could do next week
to better understand whether students
feel connected in their building?
What's, what's a good first
step in that direction?
Yeah.
Well, aside from the project, and I
do want to say one thing, which is if
you're working with elementary students,
'cause you can do this project with
elementary students too, instead of
giving them a list of teachers, you
want to give them p- faces, right, that
they can identify as being connected.
So just a little-
Mm-hmm ⦠modification on that.
But to answer, um, your question as
sort of an adjunct, one of the things
that's easy is to just, you know, without
judgment, ask st- students directly in a
way that gives you a- actionable insight.
A, a question, a leader, a, a, a
teacher, anybody in a school can ask
a really quick pulse check question.
Is there at least one adult in
this building who you trust and
would go to if you needed help?
Now, I'm gonna put like a little
asterisk next to this and say, make
sure when you ask that question,
you're not expecting them to say you,
and you don't feel personally, uh,
rebuffed if they don't say you, right?
Like, you actually just
want the answer in general.
But is there at least one adult
in this building you would trust
and go to if you needed help?
And then another question is, do
you feel like you belong here?
You know, is, is there something
that you're connected to here?
Because one of the things we haven't
talked to, you know, the DOT Project
maps connection to a person orâ¦
But, but there are, y- you know,
one of the things that we know is
meaning can also be about a thing.
Uh, uh, uh, your math
student was a great example.
That student really was interested and
motivated internally to learn math.
And so sometimes the question of do
you feel like you belong here can
say, yeah, I'm learning an essential
skill that I'm really interested in.
So there's, there's that, like, idea
that meaning must be present, and
often it's through a relationship.
Um, and purpose or belonging can also
come from other places and should
also be the second step in that.
So I, I, I've, I've-- You've
made me think of something here.
Mm-hmm.
And it seems like when, when students
have less or, or no connections, or
they, they feel less connected with their
school environment and the folks that are
there, we see attendance issues, we see
behavior issues, we see academic issues.
Does that also imply that, like
this, this young lady in my math
class, she was, she, right, she was
showing up, she was doing that work.
Does that imply that she
has good connections, right?
Um, does that, does, does performance
correlate to having strong connections-
Oh, what a- ⦠with the school?
What a great question.
I, I, I think I'm gonna say no.
I think it is an element of it, right?
So, um, kids' performance, mm,
can be about compliance, right?
So it can be about I'm, I'm gonna have
a consequence if I don't perform To
the level that I need to that is more
motivating to me than not performing.
It could be about a goal that you have,
so I want to get into X college, and I
want to achieve that, and that can be
internally driven or externally driven.
That's an expectation from, from
someone outside of you or because
it's really something you care about.
But I, I, I'll give you a
story sort of to answer this.
I, ironically, since we've been
talking about math, was not
a good math student, David.
Okay.
Was not a good math student.
And, um, I happened to be in a school
that, that did at the time some
individuation, and so they, they put me
in a, a track for algebra that I got to
learn algebra over a two-year period.
And I had a teacher who was
really, um, not only exceptional
at scaffolding, right?
But also really interested
in, um, me as a person.
Now, I went to a boarding school,
so I babysat for her kid and,
um, and, and she got to know me.
And I ended up getting an A in
that class, and I didn't get an A
in that class because I loved it.
I got an A in that class
because of the relationship.
So there's an example of how relationship
can i- i- impact performance.
And I think we've all had the experience
of having a teacher we dislike, we
don't jive with, and we do, uh, less
well than we, um, might have had we,
uh, been motivated by that connection.
Um- Yeah ⦠but in turn,
I had that same teacher.
I had, you know, for history, and
I did really well in history also
because, um, I was good at it and
I liked it, but I, I, I didn't know
that I liked it until I went into
that classroom because of that teacher
and, um, uh, and found that passion.
And then that motivated me,
and I took history through
college and really enjoyed it.
So, you know, I th- I, I don't think,
um, I don't think performance is
explicitly tied to relationship, but I
think relationship improves performance.
Yeah, I think I'd agree with that, and it
just further reinforces this idea that,
uh, an activity like relationship mapping,
we need to just start by assuming that
we don't know who has connections to who.
So we don't want to leave off
students that have high a-
high academic performance.
Uh, we don't want to only focus on
students that are in intervention.
Students' journeys are long, right?
They, it ebbs and flows.
They have great years.
They have great, um, uh, you know, they,
they perform well in certain subjects
throughout the school year, less well.
And it's so important toâ¦
I, I, I love this mapping idea because,
you know, if a student does start to,
you know, get down in the dumps and
need, need someone to, to, to speak
with or help them, um, you know, you
know, pull their shoes up and give
them some encouragement, we know and
we have an idea of who's connected.
Thank you so much for,
for, for coming on today.
We'll have to do this again.
If today's conversation resonated
with you and you're thinking about
how attendance engagement and student
connections show up in your own district,
Jen welcomes those conversations.
You can reach out to her on
LinkedIn to continue the discussion.
Thanks for joining us on Education Talk
Radio, a part of the Lead Podcast Network.
If there's a topic you'd like us to
tackle or have a guest idea, send me
a message at dciceroedutalk@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.