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Another World is still Possible. The old system was never fit for purpose and now it has gone- and it's never coming back.
We have the power of gods to destroy our home. But we also have the chance to become something we cannot yet imagine,
and by doing so, lay the foundations for a future we would be proud to leave to the generations yet unborn.
What happens if we commit to a world based on generative values: compassion, courage, integrity?
What happens if we let go of the race for meaningless money and commit instead to the things that matter: clean air, clean water, clean soil - and clean, clear, courageous connections between all parts of ourselves (so we have to do the inner work of healing individually and collectively), between ourselves and each other (so we have to do the outer work of relearning how to build generative communities) and between ourselves and the Web of Life (so we have to reclaim our birthright as conscious nodes in the web of life)?
We can do this - and every week on Accidental Gods we speak with the people who are living this world into being. We have all the answers, we just (so far) lack the visions and collective will to weave them into a future that works. We can make this happen. We will. Join us.
Accidental Gods is a podcast and membership program devoted to exploring the ways we can create a future that we would be proud to leave to the generations yet to come.
If we're going to emerge into a just, equitable - and above all regenerative - future, we need to get to know the people who are already living, working, thinking and believing at the leading edge of inter-becoming transformation.
Accidental Gods exists to bring these voices to the world so that we can work together to lay the foundations of a world we'd be proud to leave to the generations that come after us.
We have the choice now - we can choose to transform…or we can face the chaos of a failing system.
Our Choice. Our Chance. Our Future.
Find the membership and the podcast pages here: https://accidentalgods.life
Find Manda's Thrutopian novel, Any Human Power here: https://mandascott.co.uk
Find Manda on BlueSky @mandascott.bsky.social
On LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandascottauthor/
On FaceBook https://www.facebook.com/MandaScottAuthor
Manda: Hey people. Welcome to Accidental Gods to the podcast where we do still believe that another world is possible, and that if we all work together, there is still time to lay the foundations for a future that we would be proud to leave to the generations that come after us. I'm Manda Scott, your host and fellow traveller in this journey into possibility, and this week's guest is a friend of the podcast.
We spoke to Abel Pearson in 2020 for episode 25, almost exactly five years ago from when you can first listen to this podcast. That was at the height of the pandemic. We were in lockdown. Abel was farming three acres intensively, learning how to work with people at distance, how to bring in volunteers from the local community safely and let them really find meaning and purpose in getting their hands into the soil in growing, living food that they could relate to, where they could begin to understand what it was to be part of the cycle of life, to really engage with the reciprocal respect of land, to food, to people, and back to the land again.
And now five years later, Abel and his team are farming 138 acres of national trust property right on the coast of Wales. They are still producing food for people in the local area. They have a box scheme, a community supported agriculture project. So much more than that. They are building communities of place and passion and purpose centred on the land and the cycles of the seasons, and the ways we can build authentic relationship full of reverence for the many, many layers of life, in and on and under the land.
And Abel says that everything he does now is for his young son and the children to come in the hope that they might yet enjoy abundant food, clean rivers, and regenerative cultures. This is the lived reality of what this podcast speaks of all of the time. It was such a joy to meet again with Abel and to get a sense of the scale and the scope of his ambitions and the ways that they're being brought into practice.
Abel is so committed to bringing in the community of his local area and the wider community around the world to help everybody to engage with that cycle of life with food as a living thing, as something that is part of the heart flow of the earth, A way of connecting spirit to spirit us to the land, through our food, and then through everything that we can offer.
We say all of the time within the Accidental God's membership, and I'm not sure I say it often enough here on the podcast, but I am pretty certain that one of our roles as human beings is to learn to make heart connection to the web of life such that we can ask what you want of me and respond to the answers in real time.
And listening to Abel's story and the heart certainty that he was able to feel in spite of all of the head reasons why this farm might not happen. This is the lived reality of exactly what we're talking about. This is how the web of life connects with us. And the more we can connect, the more we can ask, what do you want of me?
And respond to the answers even when our headlines are telling us it's pointless or there's too much in the way, or we're not going to be able to do it. These are the steps that we make step by step. And each step, that capacity to listen to our heart mind becomes more clear. So I have put links to everything of Glasbren, to the farm itself, to the supportive program, to the courses.
You can go and have a residential course at Glasbren and to the previous podcast with Abel. I have also put links to the Accidental God's membership because apparently I don't mention it often enough at the start of the podcast and to the next gathering, which is happening on the 6th of July, it's called Becoming a Good Ancestor, which is pretty much what Abel is about to talk about.Something that I think matters to anyone who listens to this podcast, but the ways through are not always immediately obvious. So the gatherings are four hours online, four o'clock in the afternoon till eight o'clock in the evening, UK time, and we each then have a chance. To engage more deeply with what it means for us individually and collectively to become a good ancestor.So links are in the show notes, but in the meantime, with great joy and so much respect, people of the podcast, please welcome for the second time Abel Pearson of Glasbren in Wales.
Abel, welcome back to the Accidental Gods podcast, five years on from our original conversation. How are you out there in West Wales?Have you still got the drought that we, we've got, have you had no rain for six weeks?
Abel: Hi Manda. It's lovely to be back boda everyone. Good morning. Um, yeah, I'm calling in from three Rivers in southwest Wales where the Taf, Tywi and Gwendraeth Rivers meet the sea. On this, uh, national trust farm that we are now custodians and stewards of, and it is very dry. Yeah. Um, it hasn't rained. We had a big storm last week.
Manda: Yes, we did too, actually.
Abel: Um, with quite a big downpour, but it is generally pretty dry. And we're, we are farming now on a slightly different soil here too. It's, it's much sandier. We're on red sandstone here now, so it just tends to dry quicker. But we're, as we've learned from anyone who listened to the previous podcast, we talked, I think a lot about water. And so we've tried to learn our lessons from that. And we're putting in a lot of rain water catchment here. And, um, but we are lucky to have mains water as a, as a backup too.
Manda: So, so a lot has changed in your world since we spoke five years ago. Mm-hmm. You've done a crowdfunding, your entire centre of operations has shifted. Can you talk us through in as linear way as makes sense, the evolution of then to now.
Abel: Yeah, so I suppose, you know, the last time we spoke was 2020. So middle of lockdown. It was a, a big growth year for us as it was for many kind of local foods, um, projects and community supported agriculture projects because there was this sudden, sudden need and interest for, for available food and for the kind of food we can depend on, which we now realize is, is local food because we, you know, farmers kept producing all through the lockdown. And so that was a real big growth year for us. I'd also become a new parent and I remember talking about that in the previous podcast. So my son is now five and yeah, it's been, it's been the most intense ride the last five years. Yeah, we grew a lot in the lockdown. We, we did a lot of work around food security and um, how we could get this kind of food to, um, lower income households and people experiencing food insecurity. And I guess we started to build yeah, this community around the project and this following and this, uh, starting to feel this need and this demand for this kind of thing. And, um, so at some point we started looking at expansion opportunities and ways that we could grow this, both in sort of geographical size to grow more food, but also how we could meet that potential and, um, that we saw in this time when there's a lot more being said, a lot more conversation around the need for localized food around meaningful purpose and positive climate action. And so, yeah, there, there were a few options that came up along the way. We almost worked with the Ecological Land Cooperative to buy some land next to us.
Manda: Yes. Tell us about that because a lot of our listeners are not in the UK so tell us a little bit about Landco.
Abel: So they, they're quite a cool, um, a model for how a sort of land trust, I suppose, where they purchase areas of land and they lease it them to agro ecological land stewards, um, food producers on term 150 years, I think leases to allow them to farm and live on the land and, and create a land-based livelihood. So it is a nice model. They were going to buy this, this piece of land and they were gonna split it up. Um, we, amongst others, would've, would've gone onto that land, but that didn't happen because mostly due to the price of the land, unfortunately because they have limited capital. And yeah, and land is very difficult to buy at the best of times. Yeah. And so we kept looking and then, and then one of our veg box members, long-term veg box members. From this village, uh, Llansteffan which is our nearest village. She told me about this meeting that was happening at, at the village hall with the National Trust. And she said, you really should come along to this. I think you'll find it really interesting. And, um, so I did. And yeah, it changed everything. I suppose. It was actually quite, it was quite a charged meeting. There was a lot of strong feelings going around because there was a lot of fears around change and around what was going to happen to this farm because it's, it's a big part of the history of the area. It's called Lords Park because it was part of the Lord Priory of Camarthen, which was a, a religious estate that encompassed our local church and, and the whole local area. So it's, it's got a very alive history. It's, it's got history in a lot of people's families. The Wales Coast Path passes through here, so it's part of a lot of people's daily dog walks and daily ritual and, you know, um, I think people in the community even put money into it acquiring the farm with the National Trust in the eighties as well. So there's a lot of strong feelings about what happened to it.
Manda: And why was the National Trust selling it?
Abel: Um, they're not, they, they weren't selling it, so they still own it. So it was just the case that the previous tenants who had been here for 51 years, so they predated the National Trust on a multi-generational tenancy. They were retiring. They retired in 2020. Uh, and then the farm stood empty for three years or empty of humans, let's say. And I think it was around 2022 that I attended this meeting. They were, and they were sort of, I suppose, taking this moment, uh, of a new tenancy as an opportunity to implement their new vision, which they have for all of their holdings now, which is this nature people, planet focus. So they want to bring in slightly different kinds of tenants, different kinds of farming, more nature, friendly farming, but also tenants who want to bring in that social community element, uh, of how to give more access to people to land, to be on the land, to get involved and support local food and, um, sort of the higher nature status of their farms.
So that's, that's what they sort of laid out in this meeting. And, and that went down badly with some people. Um, I think there's, there's just a sense of, of fear of change, I think. You know, this had been farmed roughly the same way for 51 years and not in a bad way, you know, it was, it was a very traditional. One of the last very traditional dairy farms, not intensively stocked in, in the way we know now. And yeah. And, and I think two brothers who actually had a very deep connection with this land, and I, thankfully and luckily spend time with one of the brothers now on a regular basis. And, and yeah, he's, he's one of those rare things of someone who really, yeah, he's really tuned into this place and some of that.
Manda: Yeah. But he's quite old now. How, how old is he now? Is he, he's retired.
Abel: Yeah. He'd be pushing 70, I think.
Manda: Right. Uh, Winford. Interesting. Okay. So they would, tenancy was switching hands and you were looking for somewhere bigger. Yeah. But how close is, is the new land to where you were when we last spoke?
Abel: Well, this is the interesting thing about it, and I think all the way through the story, it's, it's had a sort of real rightness about it and a real sort of synchronicity like this. The farm is actually, so we, we have always supplied veg boxes to within a 10 mile radius of the farm. And this farm is actually sitting on the southern most point exactly almost of the 10 mile radius as it was before. So we were serving this village before, so it's only nine miles from where we were before. So, um, it's the same community, the same geographical area. I used to play on the beach down here when I was a child, and in the castle that you can see from the farm, and yeah, it is, it was, uh, I think as time goes on, we'll realize how much of a special moment in time. It was a unique kind of uni. I call it like a unicorn of a moment. You know? It was just this, yeah. This wild sort of, um, coming together of, of things that meant that we were able.
Manda: This is what happens when you connect to the web of life and that I remember last time you were getting up, even though you had a newborn baby at ridiculous o'clock and going out and doing ceremony. Very conscious, deliberate ceremony to connect to the land. You were there every day asking for help, to know what to do, to know how to do it. Bringing people in, in the middle of lockdown and giving them a sense of meaning and purpose in growing food. And I think even then you were changing people's lives.
So, you know, this is my experience, this is what happens once you align yourself with what the web needs. And then it needs more of you and, and then it has to open the doors to allow that more to happen. So, so you went to the meeting, you went, oh my goodness, we could do this, I'm guessing.
Abel: Yeah. Well, and that was, that was the beginning of quite a long road really, because I had conversations with, with the National Trust people that were there, and they were really, that was really great. And they sort of introduced us so they knew who we were and, and then it was really another, I think year and a half. Just waiting, waiting for the, for the sort of window to open of applications. We went to a couple of open days that were held at the farm and spent as much time on the farm as we could. And that was the beauty of it being unoccupied, is that we could come here and we could vision and dream and design and we, you know, we went pretty far with our design process, even though we knew that the chance of actually getting it was so slim because it was going to be super competitive and we didn't know when they were going to release the window, so it might, it might have been released at a terrible time for us, or, you know, so I think it was another, yeah, good year and a half until the window opened and it opened in May, 2023. And I remember that period of time very acutely because it was another, it was a bit of a theme.
It was a very dry, may, may, may is the growing time. And so I was watering. All the time. Every evening, every morning I had broken ribs because I'd fallen over watering. And during the day I was writing this application for the farm, you know, this, this, we had to write a sort of big, it was a 30 or 40 page, um, kind of vision document and then also a business plan. And, uh, that was all going on in that month of May. And I'll never forget that time. And so we applied and, and we were very happy to hear that we got an interview. I think there was around 40 applications for the farm in the end. Although it went, when the advert went out, it went absolutely viral. Like BBC News, ITV, all these big media outlets picked it up. And I believe there were applications from Australia, the US, Afghanistan. And we're 10 miles away. But I think it was like holding how unlikely it was. And knowing that it was, you know, we didn't, we were probably, we, we knew we'd be one of the worst financial prospects. So we were staking everything on, on vision and on the fact that we had community support around here, that was kind of what everything was staked on. And so holding the unlikeliness of it, but also this like confidence and determination that this was, we were the, we were the right ones for this. And I think that was striking about the whole time was that I'm not, I, I wouldn't say I'm someone who, you know, have as much self doubt and, uh, you know, imposter syndrome and stuff as anyone else. Um, of course, but in this case, in this moment in time, I, I've never felt more confident about something. That this was. Exactly right. Like we were exactly the right ones for this.
Manda: And you were going to dream on the land. That makes such a difference. And then the land dreams with you.
Abel: Yeah, I think so.
Manda: And you can put your roots down and go, yes, I'm here.
Abel: Yeah, I do this. And we could, you know, being here, we could see it coming to life and that we could see exactly what it could be. And there was this incredible faith that, that people would gather around it and that we'd be able to raise the money even though we didn't have it. And it was a complete faith based exercise. And, wonderfully, on my birthday in July 2023, we had the final stage of the interview process, which was the National Trust visiting us at our, our old site. And showed them around there and they said to us, okay, we'll let you, we'll let you know, we'll be in touch. And they went off to their cars and I sort of saw that they were having a conversation at their cars and I was like, I'm just going to stay here for a minute because I think they might be having that conversation right now. And sure enough, one of the national trust people that we work with came back up a few minutes later and told us on that day we got it.
Manda: What a birthday present!
Abel:. Yeah. I mean, uh, my birthday's forever changed, I think. Yeah there were tears. It was just huge, because you know, as you said before, it's the opportunity to steward a piece of land and, and be able to commit to a piece of land for, well, potentially for life as it can be, you know? And the peace is unique and beautiful and as this, but also to be able to open this up to our community, that's such a right opportunity for a piece, a place like this to be accessible to more than just the people who are farming it. All the people who live here.
Manda: So tell us about that. Tell us about the vision and then we can see how it's worked out in practice. But what was your, what was it that sold it to the National Trust? What was your big dream?
Abel: So we, I suppose we applied on the strength of this vision for expanding the scope of a truly kind of community supported agriculture. So practically speaking, continuing a lot of what we've been doing. So our community supported veg box scheme, growing that, expanding, feeding more people, but then breaking into new areas. The scope here for conservation grazing and, and rotational mob grazing involving heritage cattle. Trying to sort of nod to the history of this place by growing heritage Welsh oats and wheat.
Manda: I wondered about that. You're doing the black oats.
Abel: Hopefully there's a few sticking points with that, but that would be the aspiration. Yeah.
Manda: Nice.
Abel: And yeah, so I suppose involving volunteers in as many ways, and that's one of the beautiful potentials is that, is the new ways in which we can involve volunteers in areas beyond veg growing. Carpentry building, conservation, larger land-based wilding work, that kind of thing.
Manda: How much land is there? What's the acreage?
Abel: 134 acres.
Manda: Wow. And it's obviously spread from the coast up quite high hills?
Abel: It's a sort of peninsula, um, mini peninsula really, framed by the Taf and the Tywi rivers, and it's, I reckon about 60, 70 acres of kind of improved pasture rye, grass dominant, but that's becoming more diverse now.
Manda: Okay.
Abel: Through the last few years of just cutting late summer hay. There's some woodland, there's about 50 acres of the farm is planted Woodland, uh, already Broadleaf species. And then there's a triple SI rough kind of coastal strip. So for people not in the uk,
Manda: So for people not in the uk, triple SI is a Site of Special Scientific Interest. And why is it a site of special scientific interest?
Abel: Apparently there's no specific reason in terms of a species or a part. It's just old coast that hasn't been messed around with to coast, I suppose, which was farmed right up until, you know, Winford tells me a story about how he almost toppled the tractor off the cliff. So, it was farmed historically. Farmed right to the cliff edge.
Manda: But it sounds like, I mean, you said that they improved and were putting improved in big quotes 'cause this is improved by industrial standards. Yeah, the pasture by, by sewing dry grass. But they don't sound like they're really intensive industrial agriculturalists.
Abel: No they weren't. I mean, the parlor that they were using is, it's not even, you know, the herringbone parlor with the pit that people might be familiar with. It was more just cows up on a step.
Manda: Oh really? This is old style dairy.
Abel: Really old school. You know, there's a lot of listed buildings here that they back pre 1800.
Manda: Okay. How many cattle did they milk?
Abel: 60 by dairy standards. That's very low around here.
Manda: And are you, are you still producing milk or is, have they lost dairy in the local area?
Abel: No, there's no milk produced here. And they, yeah, when they stopped that, that was kind of the end of it. I think everything was sold off in a sale. But we are in a very dairy intensive area. We're in an area where most land is owned by mega dairies now.
Manda: Owned or farmed by huge intensive chemical agriculture and, and horror for the cattle. That's not good. Okay. Let's, so let's go back to your vision. So your vision was bringing more people into relationship with the land and with the process of producing food.
Abel: Yeah. So I suppose if I was to, you know, encapsulate our vision in, in a few sentences, it's to sort of harness the potential that we see in, in farms like this community facing farms, community supported farms, to address kind of many of the social, ecological and cultural issues of our times simultaneously. And for farms to become this kind of, these hubs of positive ecological action, but also of culture, of land-based ritual and, and congregation. You know, I'm, I'm actually working on an article right now, um, called Farms as Church. And this idea of, of farms, once again, as they were becoming, um, that third space for people that that offers something around. Congregation. So gathering with people in meaningful ways around something of, you know, a purpose of meaning, connecting with people, connecting with the land, but also bringing in that sort of sacred life, that kind of spiritual life, I suppose you might call it. Yeah. Sort of devotional, prayerful relationship with the land, but in congregation, I think, and I think that's for any of us that maybe aren't involved in right religious institutions or, um, don't have that in their life. I think there's, there's a real hunger for it. And I think, yeah, I believe that farms were, that they were a way of people coming together around something really meaningful.
Manda: Well, especially if we go back far enough, we were living in roundhouses farming the area. It was all a community action. So tell us a little bit more, the vision is to create community spirituality engaged with the processes. Presumably you're following the wheel of the year from sewing to, to harvest to all of those things. Is that, is that a thing? Tell us a little bit more. Because this is church, in its broadest sense, this is community engagement with each other and with the web of life. I'm projecting here, but that's my assumption.
Abel: Yeah. And I think it's important to say that the word, I know, I'm fully aware the word church could be challenging for people. And that's part of the reason for using it. It's a, the provocation in it sort of detoxify in a way. It's more reimagining, re-examining what church is for us and what is our church like, what is church for us? And for me, church is like being, I reverent. Prayerful relationship with the land with other people. And so it's not something grand or, you know, opulent or, like with the spirituality element is something that I feel happens when you bring people together with this kind of purpose, which is to celebrate the seasons as you said. So we do, we do gather on seasonal transitions. We recently had our mayday weekend, and we, we had a whole bunch of things going on, talks and workshops and we had some work together on the land, sort of helping hands period. But then we also had our now annual Maypole dancing.
Manda: Oh, fantastic. Was that a Welsh thing? Because I always think of that as being sort of Somerset.
Abel: Yeah, a lot of people do. And a lot of people see it as a very English thing. And it has always historically been a Welsh thing too.
Manda: Fantastic. And how is this settling in a local community? Because you said in the beginning, that first meeting in the village hall, there was some angst because people were used to how things were and they didn't want change. How are you integrating into the actual people who actually live there? Are they coming to these or are you finding people coming from the kind of hippie sections of Wales are all converging on you? How is it going?
Abel: I think it's a nice mixture, really which is lovely. I think we, you know, it helps a lot that I grew up here. I have a lot of sort of family connections and also just connections to this area. And we've also put, I think, put a lot of effort into connecting with people in the village and being part of the village. And so we do have a good mix. There are obviously the, the kind of folks you might expect from around West Wales and people do travel. You know, we have people from over an hour coming to volunteer days or events. But yeah, it's really nice to see, like, we have the beehives here the local vicar manages, they're his bees.
Manda: Oh, I was going to ask how do, how are you integrating with the kind of state religion?
Abel: Yeah, and you know, I've done talks in the local hub that they have, uh, once a month, um, sort of updating people on the farm and, and we do spend a lot of time in the village, and it's a lovely village to be part of. So that's really important. It feels really important to me. And also engaging with the Welsh language. This is a historically very Welsh speaking village, so making sure that's a key part of what we do. But I think, you know, it's, in many ways things like mayday, Calan Mai celebrations, they're often new to folks who are even, who've lived there, here their whole lives, you know, because these are these agricultural traditions or these land-based ceremonies that we had not too long ago sort of been lost really in.
Manda: And do they appreciate having them reintroduced? Are they engaging?
Abel: I think so, yeah. And the lovely thing is, it's, you know, I remember last year was our first Calan Mai on this new mayday on this new farm is we were kind of just figuring it out. And I think this has taught me a lot about community land-based ritual is that, you know, we actually carried, we, so in Wales they talk about maypole dancing as they call it, um, which literally means raising the birch. So traditionally a birch tree would've been used for the maypole, and it would've been raised each year as part of the ritual. And people would've gone and gathered sticks of nine types of tree for the fires, for the main fires and Hawthorne blossom to decorate the main pole. So yeah, we wanted to, I suppose we wanted to give a nod to the kind of choreography of, of the historical way of gathering at Mayday, but also aware that like, you know, amongst us, there are people who have grown up around here, but there are lots of people who haven't. There are people who have ancestral ties to this land, but many who don't. Some have done this kind of thing before, some haven't. People might be uncomfortablewith this kind of ritual. So really aware that we wanted to create our own thing, right? Like something was of that community as well as a nods to the heritage of traditions. And so yeah, we went down to the woods, which is down a really steep slope and through a kind of wetland area. And we carried this huge, it wasn't birch in the end because there was an alder tree that had fallen. And so we cut this alder tree and we carried this massive lump of, like, it was, took 20 of us to carry it up the hill. But that, as much, or if not more than the dancing, that was the ritual. It was that community.
Manda: Community work is what bonds people.
Abel: Yeah, exactly. Straining together, sweating together, but laughing and enjoying it.
Manda: And discovering who you can trust. I think there's that reciprocal respect is absolutely the core of building community. And you're carrying a huge bank lump of wood that will kill someone if you drop it on them. And you learn that you can trust and be trusted. And it's amazing. Well done.
Abel: And each of those people putting their, their story essentially their life into that pole. And so that pole now holds the story of that, every year that we dance around it. And we lifted it up and decorated it and got ribbons on there and, and then figured out, you know, how to dance around maple because there wasn't many of us there who knew how to do that.
Manda: I can imagine. And the key that I'm hearing that feels really important is you're not pretending that what you're doing is something that was done 500 years ago. You're going, we're using that as a scaffold and we're building something that works for us here now in the 21st century and maybe 500 years from now, they will be emulating what we're doing, but just now this is ours and we made it. And I think that feels really important.
Abel: Yeah. And I think that's, that's sort of a, a metaphor for how we're approaching this place and this project in general really is, is balancing and nods to heritage and history and tradition with this sort of forward thinking, future thinking.
Manda: Future proofing because we have to do that.
Abel: Future proofing, resilient. Yeah. Like trying to create something new, obviously, because that's what's needed. But also not going like, we've got all the answers, we're just going to place them in this place and forget everything that's gone before. So I think trying to balance those two is, is, has become quite key to what we're trying to do here.
Manda: So we kind of left you the, on your birthday. They came up and they said, you've got it. And, and I imagine that was an astonishing moment, and I would imagine on a personal and spiritual journey level, a huge affirmation for the part of you, your heart mind that knew that this was right. So you've got that, but then you had to raise the money. Tell us a little bit about the kind of logistical economic structure that let this become what it is.
Abel: Yeah. So I think that's a good point. You know, there, there were many stages of affirmation, you know, being selected was, was an sort of affirmation of all the hard work that myself and others had put in over the years. Sometimes not quite knowing. Just trusting what it was for, you know, and like, yeah, what is this going to go anywhere? You know? So being selected was, I suppose, an affirmation of that and that that seal of approval from the National Trust. But then, yeah, as you say, the next big test I suppose was, was two things. I suppose community support, where the people would gather around it. And then as you asked, financially. So the financial part of this was, was a bit of a leap of faith and a big trust exercise because we had a sense that there was, we had, you know, I suppose the first five, six years of doing this gave us a good sense of the, of the landscape of where funding is, where funding's being directed. We developed our fundraising skills, I suppose, over those years, particularly myself and co-director Stefan.
Manda: Can I ask, I don't understand why you needed money. Because this is national trust land, they weren't selling it to you. They were just leasing it to you. What was the money for?
Abel: Sure. Yeah. Not to buy it per se, but just to, well, not to buy it at all, but to implement it, essentially. To implement the scope.
Manda: Okay. You needed to make adjustments to what was a, it's not going to be a dairy farm anymore. You're going to turn it into a community supported agriculture. You just need input.
Abel: Yeah, exactly. Infrastructure, you know? Yeah. Sort of capital infrastructure, but also to be able to do the sort of social impact work that we wanted to do. To be able to support volunteers, uh, free workshops, um, events for people, seasonal events, these kind of things, so partially sort of revenue funding. Partially capital funding. And really, you know, we didn't have any sort of backup capital coming into this. We'd sort of kept the project going over the previous years, but it was like, how are we going to take on a place this big with the associated costs and how we going to implement the scope of this vision? Which is quite big really. It's quite a big scope. And how do we grow the, that's a big one too - How do we grow the team to be able to do this so it's not all falling on limited shoulders.
Manda: Yeah. because when we last spoke, it was you and your wife who were basically running it. And tell us, for the people who haven't listened to the previous podcast, which I will put in the show notes, but still, what was the acreage difference between what you were doing originally and what you have now?
Abel: So I think we were on 3 acres before and now you're on, and now we're on 134 So it's, what is it, 50 times? It's massive difference.
Manda: Yeah. And you were producing a good or a living from three acres and you were providing food to the local community.
Abel: Yeah. because we had a very sort of, I call Biointensive Market Garden. So growing a heap of food in a very small amount of space with no dig principles and um, and very mixed growing system that worked really well for that. And I would really advocate for that kind of, that kind of approach for sort of con, you know, confined spaces, small amounts of land.
Manda: Is that still going because it was hugely labour intensive.
Abel: It's, it's not operating as it was in. I mean the amazing thing is that we approached it in a sort of successional way. So it's succeeding from annual veg growing towards forest garden and that was always, so there were always rows of trees and tree planting and perennial plants and, and a lot of diversity developing that, that now has sort of filled in the space in a lot of lot areas. So really it's just an incredible habitat now that does produce food quite passively and some of it's being used to grow food and yeah, it's a, it is still a wonderful space and I can still go there because it's on my family land.
Manda: But you don't still live there? You've moved to the new place?
Abel: We moved to the farm here.
Manda: Okay, so I interrupted - you were talking about raising the capital that you needed for the infrastructure and also then for raising a team and running costs. Tell us about that.
Abel: Yeah, so we, yeah, so I suppose the first year really here, I suppose to casual observers, it wouldn't have looked like a lot changed on the farm here in the first year because it was all the sort of background work of, I sort of talk about it as three pillars of our sort of resilience as a project because I suppose having gone into the previous, you know, the beginning of Glasbren, quite gung-ho and sort of built on pure idealism and hard work. There was a sort of a lesson in that of like, yeah, okay, that was great for that time and in that context, but we can't take that approach here.
Manda: You can't do 50 times increase in scale on that and kind of just run at it and see what happens.
Abel: Yeah, like we have to get these, these three foundations solid and that is, uh, community support and a and a good team. It's observing the land and taking that, taking that year to observe and understand the land its heritage. You know, listen to people like Winford, previous tenant here, and, and spend time understanding where the bird's nest and where the water flows and how the wind blows, and all those things that are quite key to implementing a, a truly sort of ecological food system. But then the third big one is, is having the money we needed to do it and so that we weren't approaching future years kind of constantly struggling or, you know, just, just making enough or that kind of thing. So, um, so that a lot of that was grant raising. So we've been supported by people that the real farming trust who run Oxford Real Farming conference. They have an amazing loan program called the LEAP: Loans for Enlightened Agriculture Program. And so they've been an amazing supporter with money, but also business planning support and sort of future proofing the project. And so they funded things like contractor and a vehicle so that we can pick up volunteers from local towns to sort of remove the barrier of transport for volunteers.
Manda: Brilliant.
Abel: Who else? Uh, the fundraising and outreach coordinator role. Our local, uh, project with our local council. That was all around, uh, engaging adults with numeracy and geometry and maths. We ran some sessions around that. So how, how maths comes into building a farm. IC domes, how we calculate rainwater catchment. And that ended up in a lot of sort of infrastructure investment, which was really helpful.
But the big one that you were sort of speaking to was the crowdfunder, which was a big moment for us. I think we've been holding off crowdfunding for years, waiting for the right moment, waiting for a moment of growth, of a moment where you could sort of come out and say to people like, this is a big new chapter. This is a big new opportunity and obviously this was, and so we put together a really good video with Jason, the filmmaker that we work with, and who'd we'd been working with for five years. So we had all this great footage of, of what we'd done previously. And it was very much like, this is what we've been doing. This is the opportunity. This is what we want to do. This is a moment for you to hopefully support us and get behind it. And it was a very intense time. It was six weeks of nonstop sort of thinking about how to keep telling the story in different ways, keep engaging new audiences. because obviously we had our local audience and community support, but we were, we were trying to break beyond that, obviously, to, to wider supporters. And, and that was incredible to have people like yourself, you know, you donating books as rewards, um, which was one of the most popular actually. Um, and you know, Permaculture Magazine or Earthed, you know, different organizations that we've been developing relationships with over the years, pledging their support and expanding the reach of that, of that message. And we were able to raise close to 50,000 pounds in the end with match funding. And yeah, it was obviously the, the money has been, the funds have been incredibly. Important not just in of themselves, but in the capacity they've given us to go for other funds and expand our fundraising and sort of cover some of those cash flow shortfalls in the short term while you wait for another fund to come in and that kind of thing. But more than that, it's, it was about the sort of expression of support and the mandate of 237 people. Putting their hard-earned money saying, you know, want this to happen. We believe in you. We have faith that you can do this. And we, we want this to be the, the way that that farm is used. And it was just the most, yeah, it was the most moving heartening experience because as I said earlier we'd come into this with a big chunk of faith and trust and it was sort of a confirmation that..
Manda: ..other people have faith and trust.
Abel: Yeah. Reciprocated.
Manda: There's always someone for whom this is the first podcast or the first of our podcast. Can we talk a little bit about the principles of node regenerative farming and tell us how you brought them, because you've done the permaculture thing and watch it for a year. See where the shadows are. See where the sun moves around, see what's growing anyway. See what the land likes and doesn't like. Talk us through what you're doing. You, you've had your year, you've got sandy land with the salty air coming in off the coast. What are your principles and how's it working out?
Abel: Yeah, that's a good question. And I think that sort of threads back to what, what we spoke about last time is how to be, how to be farming in relationship with the land truly, whilst also having kind of harsh economics. You've got to make a living realities and drivers, you know, that you have to, yeah, this has to survive financially and, how do you have ecological resilience and financial resilience? In terms of our principles, I find we don't use the word so often nowadays, but permaculture is, is really a guiding set of principles for us, particularly in a zoomed out sense. So when it comes to the practices we use, I would define that more in terms of agroecology or, you know, a lot of these practices are not new to permaculture. They're based on traditional indigenous peasant life ways of the past, really with a little bit of modern intervention. Um, but permaculture in the sense of an ethical framework of earth care, people care, fair share, or, you know, blending the social and ecological always. So I suppose we're inherently agroecological in that sense with agroecology being a set of farming principles, but also a social movement and a movement of trying to have equity of access to foods, to land, to farming livelihoods, and producing food for the local community.
Manda: Tell us a bit about the principles of agroecology for those who, for whom this is new.
Abel: Yeah. Well, I couldn't reel the official principles off the top of my head, but I think this is something that I actually was working for the Land Workers Alliance until January as communications coordinator, part-time. Don't ask how I found time for that. And this was a big, big piece of work we were doing actually, which has just been released in the last couple of months, was a whole communications piece around sort of rerouting agroecology or, or essentially reclaiming, redefining the term because as we know a lot of these terms are now being co-opted and greenwashed.
Manda: Particularly regenerative agriculture, which shouldn't be.
Abel: So regenerative is, is kind of gone and we've lost that, have we corporate interests now, but agroecology feels like it still has its integrity whilst there are, you know, attempts to, to co-opt it still, it's, it's, it's got that integrity, but it is unfortunately, too often thought as simply about the farming practices you use. So organic nature friendly farming methods, which it is, that's a, that's a core part of it, but I think it's really important to say that it is also has a massive social element to it and it's, it speaks to a movement of sort of small scale and peasant community scale farmers around the world who are part of this, this big movement that is essentially holding true these traditional farming practices and the plants and the seeds, uh, you know, the stories and the, the genetics and all, you know, all, uh, the practices and the, yeah, like land-based, soil-based traditions, um, and holding those true and keeping those alive.
Manda: Tell us a bit about the seeds. Tell us a little bit about the kind of social implications of keeping your own seeds.
Abel: Yeah, so I suppose, I suppose I'm talking a bit about the principle of seed sovereignty, the idea of, of maintaining control over our seeds and inherently then the food that we eat. So people may not be aware, but there are, most of the, in the world now is owned by, um, companies you could count on one hand who are essentially trying to homogenize all seed into these sort of genetically modified seed varieties. And so the diversity of our seed bank has reduced by something crazy in the, in the nineties or the percentage. Um, we've lost that, that amount of diversity of seed because of hybrid seeds and yeah, these corporates trying to essentially own seed. They have patents on the seed. They own the seed, they, um, and so seed saving to them is a threat
Manda: Is theft.
Abel: Yeah. It's theft. It's intellectual property theft,
Manda: Even if it blows onto your land. You are considered to have stolen it, which is insane.
Abel: Yeah. There are horrible stories of, of farmers being sued because they've a corn variety from, from a neighbouring farm that's owned by Monsanto. Blown across, grown on their land and so they've committed intellectual property fraud. So it's a wild thing and I'd recommend a movie called, uh, Seed, the Untold story. If you want to understand,
Manda: I'll find it and put it in the show notes.
Abel: And so yeah, it means that seed saving and saving your own seed as a grower, I think is one of the most important things you can do because it's a way that we can maintain these varieties that are under threat, these rare varieties that, that each one has its own story. And it's the story of all the growers past that have grown it on, on their land and. It's like keeping that alive. It's keeping the, the genetic diversity alive and in that, the resilience of the crops,
Manda: right? Because they tend to be adapted to the land that they grew on, which is your land. They tend to be a land race for your space. I listened to a podcast a while back with John Lofthouse, who farms 3000 feet up in Utah, I think. And he's got a three generation principle where he plants, let's say it says he had corn and squash and the raccoons were just eating the lot, raccoons and skunks. So he planted in the field where there were most raccoons and skunks, and the first year he lost 95%. But he replanted the 5% that were there and the next year he lost 50% and by the third year he didn't lose almost anything because it had in three years self-selected for the ones. What he discovered was that, let's say the maze would grow up and the skunk, the raccoons worked out to knock it over and just eat the lot, but the ones that survived were the ones they couldn't knock over, and he was doing that with everything from tomatoes. He found there was not sufficient genetic variety in the tomatoes until he discovered someone who'd gone up to the Andes and had brought back flowers where the fruit was tiny, but it was still tomatoes and he was able to cross pollinate and then he got his diversity back. Are you specifically going for, here's a land race that we already know, say the blackouts and we are going to just grow that? Or are you trying to evolve land races that are local to your land?
Abel: Exactly, so we'll start by selecting seed from local seed companies or, so we have, we are lucky to have the real seed company in West Wales. We have the Welsh Seed Hub now, which is a sort of collective of growers. And you have Gaia, the Gaia seed. And then you have the seed sovereignty program. And so starting from a pretty, that's a pretty good base to start with because those are locally adapted to an extent in British adapted, organically grown, open pollinated. And then going from there. Saving and storing our own seed here. And exactly as you said, selecting plants that show resistance to certain pests or diseases or, um, show particular resilience in these conditions. One of our big threats here is, is the wind, uh, being out on the cliff. So the wind is a big one. Uh, drought resistance, that kind of thing. So as, as people have always done, we, yeah, we're sort of trying to do that same thing, but also aware that, you know, like we're, I think the important thing to say is that we're all trying to find our way back to something that was developed over hundreds of hundreds of years of multi, you know, generations passing down knowledge and honing and perfecting. You know, if you look at some of the most perfect examples, um, particularly in indigenous food systems of, of, you know, truly regenerative, resilient food, growing, food producing systems that also involve really beautiful social elements and community around it. Then they've taken, you know, they've taken generations.
Manda: But we're in a changing climate. That is changing far more rapidly than previous generations had to deal with. And I wonder, let's talk a little bit about. You had the ryegrass quotes improved, which means basically destroyed paddocks. Rye grass is a disaster. Anyone listening, rye grass is not good for the land or the animals that eat it, and we need to get rid of it. It, what it does is it survives with very, very, very shallow roots. So you can sheep wreck your land or cattle wreck your land, and you still have some grass. However, once you get biodiversity, you get longer standard grasses with deeper roots. And you then, my understanding and certainly what we're finding here is you build soil depth and you increase the water uptake capacity of the soil. So you gain drought resistance and resilience, and you gain wind resilience because you've got deeper roots and all of that kind of thing. Are you, it's, it's early days, but are you finding that this is happening with your conservation, grazing and other structures on the land?
Abel: Yeah. So, um, we've already seen, so what's happened here on the majority of the land while the farm was empty, and then in our first year or so, being empty a couple of years was a good thing, eh? Yeah. I think it was, it was really good. It was really cool to see what, what happened in those three years in terms of ground nesting birds and just the wildlife that moved in. And hedges are already expanding the farmer's fence to allow for more space for the hedges to expand big capital input. That's only, only a good thing really, but I suppose the approach we're taking, we've been taking is to cut hay after the end of July, after the seeds have fallen, flower seeded, uh, once all the birds have nested and, and fledged, we cut hay and that's the, the purpose of that really is to take nitrogen off the land. So to reduce its fertility essentially, which is kind of interesting because and on sort of veg producing areas and blocks, we're trying to build fertility obviously. But on the majority of the meadows we're trying to reduce fertility because that's the only way to get that diversity back in. And you can already see that happening.
Manda: Are you changing the balance of the fertility? I think you're trying to get back to a mixed bacterial fungal biome instead of the kind of bacterial heavy biome that you tend to get with ryegrass. What kind of cattle are you using?
Abel: So we've got Longhorns - they've only just arrived a week ago which are going to be managed, you know, their primary purpose here is, is for nature recovery biodiversity. That's their primary reason for being here. So we'll be grazing them on a sort of mob grazing, conservation grazing blended approach, depending on where, you know, the different grazing approaches according to whether it's. Meadow or whether it's the, the coastal strips that we need to graze or whether it's more delicate kind of wetland environments, that kind of thing. We became inspired by them, with the work that they're doing at Knepp, the Knepp Estate. But also just because they're, you know, they're a heritage cow. They're, they're closer genetically to, to the native cattle of the UK. They calve for that reason very easily independently on their own. They like a mixture of diets, so they like to barge from trees.
Manda: They're good browsers.
Abel: Yeah, good browsers.
Manda: Are you planting more trees?
Abel: Yeah, so we've, uh, we've planted, I think in the region of two and a half thousand so far, a mixture of kind of windbreaks shelter belts, uh, sort of blanket tree planting on north slopes. But we've also planted a 80 tree community orchard. So there's 80 rare Welsh varieties of apples and pears in there. Each one dedicated to someone in the community, or at least that's what we're moving towards. People who supported the Crowdfunder or people who've joined our farm supporter program, which is sort of a, essentially like a Patreon for the farm, right?
Manda: You get your own tree. Does that mean you can go and pick some apples at some point? Is that a thing?
Abel: Yeah. And people will come and we'll do a big juicing together and it's looking ahead to, it is ways to find ways for people to feel tangibly invested and connected to the farm, even if they can't come here often.
Manda: Can I ask a question again about the cattle? Partly because you've got Longhorns and they need a lot of space. One of the things that I am internalizing, we have a vision of Britain as being a wooded landscape. And actually somebody did an examination of the fossil record of beetles. And it wasn't, it was mostly, a lot of it was edge spaces, so there would be wide corridors between patches of Woodland in a way. And it, what I'm understanding partly because I'm on a WhatsApp for the Sheep Mob grazing group and they're planting a lot of trees because sheep are so much happier as a browsing species and they've got shade in the summer and shelter in the winter. And I'm guessing it's the same for cattle that this idea of black and white cows in, in kind of golf courses is not how they're meant to be. They're meant to be wandering around sampling the Hawthorn and the birch and the hazel, I've got the ponies have to stay in because the grass is still laminitis at this time of year. And I am going out and picking them as much variety as I can. And they're desperate. It's not that they're hungry, they want whatever is rising up. And I, went to a meeting recently with Claire Whittle who pointed out that I think magnesium, but it might be. One of the other elements in the grass is almost, it vanishes at this time of year, but in Willow it's 20 times what it normally is. So you want to be browsing on the willow. And I'm sure that is also true of other rare earths and other tree species. So I am heading towards, we don't need these big fields, we need lots of trees with. Paths between them. Is that first, is that accurate in your belief? And second it, what do you, because Longhorns need big paths because they got big horns.
Abel: It's absolutely accurate. In my, in my, yeah. In my belief. And I think the Longhorns are quite a nice example of that because whilst some of them do have the sort of, you know, straight out horns, a lot of them have these sort of curving down horns and that's actually, that's evolved to be able to pull down tree branches to be able to feed them. So it is literally, they've evolved with trees and tree fodder. Because that's so important to the diet as you say. You know, they, it allows them to, when you have trees, but you also have a mixed sort of, um, herb layer in the, in the grass. When you have herbs like yarrow and plantain and planting in your, in your pasture, then it allows the cows to self-medicate so they can, as you said, they can look for whatever they might be lacking in or whether, whatever they need in a diversity of different foods. Um, and yeah, trees are particularly amazing for that. And so the need for, for medication, the need for vets, worming, antibiotics, all these things, like they just seem to, from what I've, what I can tell from people that are implementing these systems and, and what we hope here is that will almost eradicate the need for pharmaceuticals. And if they can calve on their own because they've got nice wide hips they've evolved for that too.
Manda: Are you planning to sell some beef from the land or are they simply there?
Abel: Yeah, so the beef will be available probably in a similar way to, similar model to how we distribute the vegetable harvest really is, is as a membership based scheme. So, you know, as our purpose is to bring people as close as possible to how their food is produced by whom, where, um, then I think coming as close as possible to the animals from which their meat comes from.
Manda: Yes. And understanding the cycle of life and, and learning that we can use honour and respect or bring in honour and respect and that this is getting people away from the industrial farming to the point where they have a living relationship with their food feels really important.
Abel: Yeah. So, and to your first point to me and, and to us here. I think cattle in this grassland ecosystem are so, are really vital to, because we could, we could not have cattle on here and we could probably develop a nice diversity of plants above ground, but I think something would really lack in the diversity below ground. In the invertebrates as well on the surface of the soil.
Manda: Yeah. Well, you don't have dung beetles if you don't have dung and dung beetles are a keystone species.
Abel: Yeah. The, they're ding from that and, you know, the invertebrates that will come from that. But also, you know, the digging, I've already seen the longhorns, you know, they dig, they create little furrows and that gives space for other seeds to germinate. You know, there's, there's a big stretch of the coastal strip that is quite sort of matted bed of grass that doesn't really allow anything else to Right. Germinate. And so a bit of, a bit of grazing from the longhorns will open that up and allow stamping through it.
Manda: It’ll be so interesting to see how that evolves. I'm guessing that you are, have you still got your video guy and you're getting good videos of, of this is the progression? Because 10 years down the line, that's going to be a really interesting film.
Abel: Yeah. Well, I wish, I mean, we could've done more. We should have done more. We always feel like you should catch more because it's moving so fast. But yeah, we've definitely got a good chunk of stuff and, and a lot of good drone footage before and after stuff.
Manda: So tell me a little bit about the people, because again, when we spoke five years ago, there was you and your wife and a few people that were beginning to come in because it was lockdown and they were desperate to be doing something, and they were finding real meaning and purpose and actually just getting their hands in the soil. And now from the look of your website, you've got a big team behind the community interest company. Your directors, and you've got all of your volunteers. Tell us a bit about the community interest company team.
Abel: So, um, yeah, we're a community interest company, which essentially means we're, we're a limited company, but we, there's no shares, there's no, there's no shareholders and we are limited so our assets essentially belong to the community. That's the easiest way to say it. And so we are a nonprofit and we are in service to the community and that's, that's something we have to sort of adhere to as a, as a CIC. And a part of that is having a board of directors who sort of hold responsibility for finances and governance and safeguarding and fundraising, all that kind of thing, and we are now five, so we were probably the last time I spoke to you, I think Stefan had just come on board. And I worked with him on the ground for a few years. Growing together. And then he sort of moved on, got a, a role as a social enterprise development coordinator for Pembrokeshire.
Um, but stayed on as a very active director. So there's still him, Louisa, my partner and I, uh, and then we've taken on two more directors, Laura and Morgan. And so yeah, trying to find people who, all of them have, have been very much a part of Glasbren, supportive of Glasbren since the beginning. But also they all bring different skills and experience basis of running other projects. Um, for example, Laura runs a local environment centre, sort of a zero waste. It's called Zero Community Environment Centre, but has also run bigger businesses. And Morgan has run clubs and societies and is a, uh, yeah, environmentalist.
Manda: And to what extent is the admin of A CIC something that you really have to think about because I'm imagining if it were me, I'd want, I want someone else to do all the logistics and the paperwork. I just want to be on the land.
Abel: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. I mean, if I wasn't careful, my entire life would be on a laptop. Because there is so much to every element of this project that involves a lot of admin. We we're not yet a place that we want to be of like having people in those areas. But yeah, having, yeah, being CIC comes with a lot of additional, everything from, you know, you need to have really robust policies around environmental policies, safeguarding, all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of fundraising that goes on. There's, um, just the very active having a board of directors and meetings and yeah. All that kind of thing.
Manda: And do you have a social technologies for the meetings, like sociocracy or something? Or you just sit around table?
Abel: Not yet, but I think as we grow, we, you know, we've only just become five and I think we'll start to reach a size, um, where we will need to do that. But we are developing something quite interesting at the moment, which is, it's kind of honouring increasing amounts of, uh, interest from people in being something a bit more than a volunteer or taking a role in the project, that that is a bit more than just coming on a Thursday and helping out -Well there's no, just to that, that's incredible - But there's people who want to apply their skills or want to learn more in certain areas, um, whether it's the conservation or whether it's the architecture of the heritage buildings or whether it's involved in the running of the CIC. So we're developing this model, which I suppose is, is sort of like a sociocracy model as I understand it, which is to have our sort of board of directors who manage all of that CIC sort of stuff, but then have these sort of circles around it. Um, you might call them working groups or in particular areas. So one that we're developing is, is land and ecology, or land and nature, which is for anyone interested particularly in the sort of the vision for how we bring the farm to higher nature status diversity, the sort of more conservation or regeneration parts of the project. And then there might be others that are involved more in the community based part of it. And so we'll develop these circles outside that sort of feed into a central circle and, and vice versa. So that's, that's something we're starting to develop now because there's, there is so much interest in being involved in multiple different ways that we want to try to find a model that, that can serve that really.
Manda: Yes. Because that's part of your remit is to have that social engagement. And I'm wondering how much is people who are physically within your 10 mile radius? And how much are you getting interest from a broader community who are just interested in the principles of what you're doing?
Abel: There's a lot of both. So there's really great local support. You know, we have 120 people in a Glasbren volunteers WhatsApp group. But then there's, yeah, there is this through, I suppose through the work we've been doing, through the work I've been doing over the years of. I've done a lot of speaking and I've done like online courses for platforms like Earth and things like that have sort of helped to reach out to a broader audience who has sort of Yeah, I suppose, I suppose kind of, um, watching from afar at the moment, but the, the, one of the exciting opportunities here is that we can do some more residential things, residential opportunities so that people who aren't local can come and get involved.
Manda: Brilliant. As in come and stay for a while or come and do a course with you?
Abel: Yeah, well we do, we do have residential volunteering, so through something called Help Exchange, very similar to WWOOF if people are familiar with that, but also actual experiences. you know, week-long sort of retreats, centred around deepening into relationship with the land. So with a practical element. So learning practical land-based skills, practical permaculture skills. But I think we realized our, the thing we're most passionate about is, is the spirit in which we go about this work. So I think really putting time into deepening into understanding of the land and relationship with the land and the kind of observational skills you need to develop the kind of understanding of how land works, but also your personal, the spirit in which you are coming to it, so are you coming to it in relationship with the non-human around you? Are you going to come into it always asking the question? Like, what's the best possible thing I can do for this land and the, and the beings that live in it? Yeah. And how can you be, I suppose, heart centred and, and soul centred in that instead of coming from purely head intellectual, you know, because the ideas and the models are all out there. We can read them in books, we can watch them on YouTube videos, but I think it's important. To develop one's own sort of sense of relating with land as a foundation for everything. And that, that just feels like the foundation of this whole movement actually is. We are in relationship.
Manda: And it's what you got to here was that heart knowing that it was the right thing to do.
And so we're nearly out of time, but this feels, this, what you're describing there, that the spirit in which we come to it feels like this is what has to shift. I have a belief that we need to shift our value set, shift our ask clean water, clean air, clean soil, all the rest of it. Clean, clear relationships between each other, all parts of ourselves and the more than human world. And you're there on 138 acres helping people to really engage with that. And I'm really interested in how you share with people. The evolving skill of listening, actually listening, not just looking at the land and seeing where the water runs that's important or where the grand nesting birds are. But listening to the spirit of the land so that you can ask what do you want of me? And hear the answers in real time. And what I'm hearing, and I hope I'm not just projecting this, is that you're doing this and can you just tell us a little bit about your experience of sharing that with other people? Do they get it? How do they get it? And is, I would like to believe that there's a kind of exponential growth. You get it, you spread it to three people, they spread it to nine people, and, and the curve sweeps up. Is that a thing?
Abel: Certainly. I mean, uh, on a movement level in terms of the agroecology movement or the movement towards regenerative farming, I, I'm feeling like there's a lot more emphasis on this. So at the Oxford Real farming conference this year they had an incredible listening to the land part of that,
Manda: which will be 10 times bigger next year because we couldn't fit people in the room.
Abel: Yeah. And, um, sadly I was supposed to be part of that, but I sadly was ill. I think, um, again, this year it was also minus eight degrees here. It probably wasn't a good time to be leaving the farm. And also, yeah, I spoke on a really great panel in, in the Wales Real Food and Farming conference and you could feel from the audience there that that kind of, oh yeah, this is, and, and people coming out of that I remember saying, you know, this is, it's kind of all of it really, you know, it's like, it's all the other sessions are sort of built on this.
What this session was about in a sense of how do we find belonging on the land that we're farming on? How do we come from a place of relationship with the land that we're farming on? And so there's that on a, on a movement scale, it feels like that's so much more a part of the conversation now. And we are looking to, you know, indigenous wisdom and, and wisdom from around the world that have this more intact. But we're also trying to find something new and something that isn't sort of appropriated and something that's accessible and authentic. And, and I know that's a lot of the work that you are doing and so many incredible people are kind of trying to find their way to that. But then I suppose, yeah, here, um, I mean, I do a lot of work around sort of pathways into deeper relationship to nature and, and a lot of that is, is really simple. So it's like grounding practices, grounding ourselves in the senses. This, this way that we can be in relationship with the land all the time if we tune into them. Just connecting through beauty, connecting through our emotions, connecting through a sense of compassion or feeling with other beings. Um, these are some of the pathways that we've worked with Natural Academy, and I think these, some of these pathways were developed out of some research that Darby University did to make it as simple as, and this is what I always end up saying, I suppose is like, making the act of relating or belonging a really as simple as possible process or practice, and a and a real verb, a real doing thing that we do and we practice and we, we get wrong and it feels clunky and, you know, might not be so profound every time. You know, it's just the act of kind of just committing, I suppose, committing to land. As I go and sit with this, um, there's this incredible hawthorn tree on the farm. It's out the far east side of the farm, and it's the only tree left on this. What I've now discovered is, is a wall, it's an old wall essentially that's completely buried by grass now. And there's this one hawthorn tree that's, it's very squat because it can't grow any higher than because the wind takes it. But it's sort of like squatted in, in a sort of stance against the wind, you know, permanent kind of bracing to the wind. And I think it, you know, it's a tree that's very defined by the storms that has hit it and yet it still blossoms and I just kind of sit with it. because I think it's a beautiful example of, of the act of being in relationship. It's like, yeah and rooting like this, you know, this, I want to commit my life to this place and I want to offer that for the community as well. And I think that that tree's a good example of what it takes to do that. To dig in.
Manda: Yeah. And when you felt compassion for and with a tree you can never unfeel it. Nothing can ever take that away.
Abel: That's a really key point is. If we, if we can all develop the instinct to feel for and with the world around us, I think the practical and the way we act will just flow from that. I think that's, that's it really.
Manda: I think that's an amazing place to end unless there was anything else that you wanted to say to people listening, what can they do to help you?
Abel: So firstly, well, to help us if you're local, come and volunteer, come and be part of volunteer days or our monthly community Saturdays. If you're not, you could join our farm support program. So that's just five pounds a month. There'll be a tree planted in your name in the orchard, as well as other benefits, newsletters, things like that. And that's just a way for you to sort of say. I want this to happen and continue and helps us do our work. And also look out, yeah, look out for our, our residential courses and opportunities coming up. Because they'll be really cool and interesting and, and very much along the lines of what we've been talking about today. And, and I just, I would just like to say probably to acknowledge, because we sort of moved on, I suppose the team that is around this and the team that helps me to do all this. I'm here as the spokesperson, but we have an incredible two head growers now here who are growing the veg. And we've got a guy called Patty here who's doing amazing work with infrastructure and, and obviously all our incredible volunteers. People that make this what it is and give it its life and give it its soul and, and my family, my partner, my son. Just everyone who has gathered around this, this, um, yeah, this project and, and the scale of it and make it feel possible so.
Manda: Brilliant. Okay. Thank you. In that case, we'll stop there. Abel, this has been such a delight. I am so impressed with all that you're doing. I definitely need to take a trip out to West Wales at some point soon.
Abel: You do, yeah. We could talk all day I think.
Manda: We could easily, but in, in the meantime, I want to come visit your Longhorns. In the meantime, I will put as many links in the show notes as I can, but right at the top will be the link to Glasbren so people can find you and connect with you.
Abel: Lovely.
Manda: Thank you. I look forward to talking again in another five years time.
Abel: Thank you. Manda.
Manda: And there we go. That's it for another week. So much thanks to Abel for all that he is and does. I genuinely have no idea how he packs everything into the days. One of the things we didn't get to talk about is that he and his partner are homeschooling their young son.
So along with building community, changing the nature of the land, doing the spiritual work that he's doing, building rhythms and rituals and ceremonies, and designing courses. He is also teaching the next generations what it is to live in full connection with the land. I am genuinely in awe of all that he's doing and the heartfelt nature of it.
He is actually connecting to the spirit of the land and listening and responding. And the thing I want to make really clear is that all of us can do this. We don't need 138 acres on the coast of Wales. This is our birthright. People being fully connected, self-conscious nodes in the web of life is what we're here for because then we ask the web, what do you need of me? And we respond to the answers and we can let our headlines focus on how to make that happen rather than trying to predict everything that's going to happen in a hyper complex system, which is impossible. And then trying to head off all the particular crises at the past. I may have said this before, I have said this often actually. But I really hope that listening to someone like Abel who is living this life, who is living this way of being is an example and an encouragement to everybody else. We can all do this and we need to. So if you want further encouragement, please head off to the show notes. Go and look at Glasbren. Go and see what the courses are. If you feel moved to become a supporter of the farm, I think that would be a really good thing. But if not that there will be similar places somewhere near where you live. This is a movement that is growing around the world. So find whatever is in your local area and do what you can to support it, and you'll find that you are supported in your turn.
Genuinely, when we connect to the Web of Life, it is a reciprocal relationship. This is the thing that our culture has forgotten and yet. We can all step back into our birthright. I guarantee this. We just need to offer the trust and then to become trustworthy in our turn. So go for it. Start building a living relationship with the food that you eat. I promise it's worth it and apart. We will be back next week with another conversation. In the meantime, thank you to Kara C for the music at the head and foot to Alan Lowles of Airtight Studios for the production to Lou Mayor for the video in this week's transcripts, to Faith Tillery for the website and for all of the conversations that keep us moving and for keeping our bit of farm moving when I was flat out. And as ever, an enormous thanks to you for listening. If you know of anybody else who wants to understand at a bone deep level how we can build our reciprocal relationship with the land and with the food that arises from it, then please do send them this link. And that's it for now.
See you next week. Thank you, and goodbye.