[00:00:00] Abe Train: The kinds of attention that you get in that sort of thing, it's not like all praise, right? It's like a lot of like, this country's missing, or this didn't work properly, or people don't understand the game, they're just asking questions. And so for a while there, I was like, oh man, people hate it, this is, there's just so many issues that I have to work through.
[00:00:14] And then I realized like, oh no, they're asking these questions because they're playing the game.
[00:00:22] Nate Kadlac: Welcome to the Hey, Good Game podcast, where we chat with the creators of your favorite games that you secretly play in the cracks of your day. So we just got done talking with Abe Train of Trainwreck Labs. And it was a great conversation. Aaron, what did you take away from that? You know, I
[00:00:41] Aaron Kardell: thought what was super interesting was Abe, up until the end of 2021, wasn't even a developer.
[00:00:49] You know, he had an interest in gaming before, but, like, wasn't a developer, happened to be in between jobs, wordle craze took off, [00:01:00] and he decides, maybe I'll try making a game. And, you know, it's, it's not every day that somebody As the very first thing that code makes a hit game. And so it was just very cool to see that that journey for Abe and was, was really great that he shared that with us.
[00:01:18] What do you think, Nate?
[00:01:19] Nate Kadlac: Yeah, not being a developer or a designer, like that's kind of a crazy story. So please check out this interview, but I really enjoyed kind of the unique partnership he had. It's, it's really easy to put ads on games, but I think he was reached out to by a director of a, of a indie film.
[00:01:36] And wanted to partner with Abe on making a game, uh, you know, basically kind of like a sexplanation game. And so while it was sort of a freelance project, I really think that that kind of provides some insight into the different types of opportunities for game developers to have with sponsors, partners, and other, you know,
[00:01:54] Aaron Kardell: partnerships down the road.
[00:01:56] All right. So check out the interview with, uh, Abe Train of Trainwreck Labs.[00:02:00]
[00:02:04] Nate Kadlac: Today, we're thrilled to speak with Abe Train of Trainwreck. Labs. He is a creator of the popular games, Globle and Globle Capitals, amongst others. He's also worked for companies like General Motors, Tesla, and HelloFresh. And before leaving, spending most of his time building games, which we're absolutely going to get into.
[00:02:23] In fact, one of your games came up today in our Discord, MetaZoo. So we're really excited that you're here, Abe. And looking forward to chatting with you.
[00:02:31] Abe Train: Yeah, awesome. I'm excited to be here. So
[00:02:33] Nate Kadlac: let's just kick this off. What's your
[00:02:35] Abe Train: favorite game to play? Honestly, one that I've really enjoyed lately, and I know this is, uh, this is from one of the giants, not one of the indie creators we love to support, but, uh, The New York Times has this new Connections game.
[00:02:47] Have you guys played that? We have. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that one, uh, that's what the group chat is, is buzzing about right now. And, uh, I'm really enjoying that
[00:02:55] Nate Kadlac: one. That's really cool. So I'm kind of curious, like just going back, where did you first get your [00:03:00] interest? In games, in general, do you, do you recall a first memory?
[00:03:04] You know,
[00:03:04] Abe Train: I, I think of, uh, I think of like the kind of games that I make when I think interesting games, not as like, like when I tell people I make games, they, a lot of people, their first thought is something like call of duty, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but I always think a bit more in the realm of like trivia.
[00:03:18] And so when I was in high school, I was on the trivia team. There's this big nationwide high school tournament called reach for the top in Canada. And, uh, we never did very well, but I would say that was a bit of an introduction there. And, uh, uh, a little bit after that, when I was in university, and I, I didn't do this for very long, I kind of wish I'd really stuck it out, but for a little while there, I was the crossword designer for the student newspaper at the University of Waterloo.
[00:03:44] And I think I published about like 15 of them in total, and I cheated a lot. I used, uh, like crossword generating tools and stuff like that at the beginning, and then I got better, and I really, really enjoyed that, and I think that was kind of, uh, uh, an introduction into, like, making games for other [00:04:00] people, and then there was a very long pause as I, you know, finished school and, and worked, had a real job for a while there.
[00:04:06] Uh, before, before coming up with Globle last
[00:04:08] Nate Kadlac: year. Just want to dig into that real quickly. So what does it take to create a crossword puzzle game? Like how long did that take you once you were actually not cheating?
[00:04:17] Abe Train: Oh, that's a great question. So I had a, I had an internship at the time. I wasn't in class when I started doing this.
[00:04:22] I had an internship on campus. And, uh, I was working for a grad student who ran out of data for me to analyze. So, I had basically the whole day to work on it. And it did take quite a while, uh, whether I was cheating or not. But, uh, very, very, uh, well worth it. I had, there was only one published per week. So, I had the week to work on it.
[00:04:44] And I don't think I used every hour for that, but I had all the hours that I wanted to. It's fascinating.
[00:04:48] Aaron Kardell: What, what was the, uh, first, you know, other than crosswords for a newspaper, what was the first computer game you built?
[00:04:57] Abe Train: Oh, um, you know, I don't, [00:05:00] I, I didn't, uh, study computer science and I didn't really have a background in programming.
[00:05:06] I don't have a background in programming. So I used to, my, my first real experience with any kind of building anything for a computer was like just scientific programming for engineering school. And then, uh, data analysis and, and forecasting and that kind of thing. So, man, I don't want to say that the first game that I made was Globle.
[00:05:24] I'm sure there were other kind of smaller steps along the way there. But, I don't think there was, uh, I would try, I would try my hand at, like, smaller apps and, like, little things for people to interact with. I made something called Spotify Pre Wrapped, so you could, like, see your Spotify top songs before, like, wrapped at the end of the year.
[00:05:42] Uh, but in terms of, like, Yeah, actually like programming a game for someone else to play, I don't think I really did that much at all in my
[00:05:49] Aaron Kardell: past. Well, that's a, that's a pretty phenomenal start. Kudos to you, by the way. Thank you. So, so Globle, no, no pun intended, has become a bit of a global hit. When did [00:06:00] you get a sense that that
[00:06:01] Abe Train: was going to take off?
[00:06:02] I, like I said, I hadn't built very many things before and, um, I, when, when I first, uh, made it, I think, uh, I just kind of made it to practice my skills. And I wanted to share it with the world, and I posted it in two different subreddits on Reddit. I did it in WebDev, you know, to, like, impress my peers and the other people who are making things on the internet.
[00:06:23] And in r slash geography. And in WebDev, it got absolutely zero traffic, and no one looked at it. But in geography, it, uh, it got some momentum really quickly. So that was when I noticed, like, okay, people are, people are paying attention. And you know, like, the kinds of, um, The kinds of attention that you get in that sort of thing, it's not like all praise, right?
[00:06:41] It's like a lot of like, this country's missing, or, or, you know, like, this didn't work properly, or people don't understand the game, they're just asking questions. And so for a while there, I was like, oh, man, people hate it. This is, there's so many issues that I have to work through. And then I realized, like, oh, no, they're asking these questions because they're playing the game.
[00:06:57] Right? So like, I realized, like, oh, [00:07:00] people really are interacting with it. And then I kind of, um, I was watching, like, I had Cloudflare analytics was the only way I was tracking at the beginning. And I could see the numbers that were like going up daily and then weekly and it was, it was just an absolutely crazy time.
[00:07:15] Nate Kadlac: So kind of in that realm of time of developing and testing out the game and sort of seeing people flock to the game. Would you say for other developers to get your first thousand users, was it? posting on Reddit and posting in other communities. Is that kind of what you would tell them to do in terms of like getting some
[00:07:33] Abe Train: traction?
[00:07:33] I, I wish I had a secret formula and I, I have tried to replicate the Reddit thing with other games that I have made since. And Reddit is, it is very much not a platform for self promotion. They, uh, not only does like, you know, the actual website itself, not really want people doing that, but I find like.
[00:07:52] Moderators in different communities can be very protective about that sort of thing. If they think you're trying to like sell something or push something you made, and it's not like [00:08:00] within specifically showcase Saturday or something like that, then you can, you can run into some angry, angry mod messages.
[00:08:06] Um, or just people not interacting with it at all. So I wish I could say that like, yes, this worked for me. It'll work for me again. It could work for anyone else and all that kind of stuff. I think I got very, very lucky in that. I made the game at a time, and you know, just from the name of the game, Glow Bull, like with Ellie at the end, it's supposed to be like Wyrtle, you're supposed to think of Wyrtle when you, um, when you interact with it, and when you find it, and I think the timing was so good with the game because I think people were kind of, people had gotten into Wordle, this was like January, February in 2022.
[00:08:40] People had gotten into Wordle, and they had been playing it for like, you know, weeks or months or whatever. And I think they were like, looking for the next Wordle, when it came out. So people were kind of looking for this sort of thing, and I think it was a combination of the timing and where I posted it that [00:09:00] happened to really let it take off.
[00:09:01] Nate Kadlac: So there's a, there's a moment there that I think affected a lot of people. So when Wordle was sort of this inflection point, how did you feel about it? Like what, how did it inspire you? What did you feel when? When that came out and maybe you thought you could build something similar or I'm just kind of curious like your thought process and how that affected you.
[00:09:19] Abe Train: Yeah. So I had just left my previous job. I was working in data and I wanted to do something more technical. I wanted a bit more of a like software kind of challenge. And I wanted to work with a database and do something like, and I was like, Oh, you know, like a game you can save your score and that'll involve that.
[00:09:35] So I was trying to come up with the kind of game to make. And that was around the time I heard about Wordle. And I checked it out and I'm like, this is the simplest thing I've ever seen. I can absolutely make this. And so I was like, okay, I'm not just going to recreate Wordle. I want to make something Wordle like.
[00:09:51] And I was like, okay, what's a different kind of Wordle? And I think they were already starting to pop up at that point. And at first I was going to do something with movies. And there are a lot of really [00:10:00] good movie Wordles out there. But I couldn't find a way for it to work. Every time I kept thinking like No matter what movie the answer is, there is such a good chance that people won't have seen it just because there are so many movies out there and like, it's kind of like a limitless thing.
[00:10:13] And then I was like, okay, scratch that. What is a set of things that people mostly know or are interested in learning more about? Like English words, like five letter words. And I got to countries pretty quickly from there. And so that was kind of, uh, how I came up with the idea.
[00:10:29] Nate Kadlac: Yeah, that's actually a really good point because we chatted with Nilanth, who lives in Toronto and created CineNerdle.
[00:10:36] And I mentioned to him, it took me about, like I've failed that game so many times trying to guess the movie. Because you're showing like a little square snippet of an entire movie frame. And it's really difficult. And so unless you are a true cinephile. Those can be complicated games to play.
[00:10:52] Abe Train: Yeah. I learned a little bit later that, um, there's a couple different categories of player of these sorts of like, I guess, category based games.[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] And the nerd, the person who is really, really into the topic is kind of a, a very interesting segment of that. And they, they'll. You ask different kinds of questions and you interact with them differently. And that, that was something that's, um, that's been very big for MetaZua, which I, which I launched pretty recently.
[00:11:15] Aaron Kardell: So is it true that you've been kind of at this as your full time thing for almost two years now, is
[00:11:22] Abe Train: that right? Yeah, I, uh, when I left my previous job, that was at the very end of 2021. I didn't have anything lined up for after that. I was just planning to work on some skills and then find a job. And I made Globle and it just happened to take off, but I didn't have any plans to put ads on it.
[00:11:38] I saw You know, the guy that made Wordle, he made some kind of comment, I was like treating him as like a saint, you know, I was like, you like, this is like, this is who I'm following, this is my leader. I was um, he had some quote in some interview where he said he didn't want to put any ads in the game because he wanted to keep it like pure or something like that, whatever that means.
[00:11:56] Um, and so I had this idea in my head that like, no, this is just going to be out there. It's going to be like [00:12:00] open source resume project and whatever I do next, you know, it'll just kind of like be a nice thing that I did before. And then sure enough, I was, I was running low on savings that I had from my previous job and it was time to start looking for something new.
[00:12:12] And I kind of found myself at this, um, fork in the road. I had to make a decision. I could. You know, sell out and put ads on my game and bring in some revenue from that and lose all of my principles or everything I was holding on to. Or, I could get a job at another company that was doing the same thing.
[00:12:30] Right? Because most likely I would get a job at a company that's also, you know, making money from ads on a website. Like, that's just how a lot of web development jobs work. And so I decided that actually, you know, if I'm going to be working in the ad business, I'd rather be in control and, you know, have a say in what the products look like and give myself the freedom to keep making games because, uh, that it turned out that, you know, just like, I loved it.
[00:12:54] I loved making the game and talking to players and being able to have like an educational spin on it and all of that. So [00:13:00] it was around halfway through last year that I started talking to different, um, ad Providers, ad partners, and figuring out how to put ads on the, on the game. And then, uh, Trainwreck Labs, like the name Trainwreck Labs and the actual company didn't come to be until, oh, just around this time last year, actually.
[00:13:16] It would have been like a week ago last year. And when
[00:13:19] Aaron Kardell: you started talking to those, uh, ad partners, did you, was there any do it yourself approach first, like with, uh, Google AdSense or, or did you? Decide to work with a partner on that right away. You
[00:13:31] Abe Train: know, I probably should have explored doing some more things myself with Google AdSense.
[00:13:35] People that reached out to me about putting ads in the site and they said good numbers and they seemed like they really knew what they were talking about. And I talked to a couple of them and negotiated a kind of different revenue share deal. And I, it's kind of, it's been a similar decision that I've had to make with a lot of this process is like, do I want to build the tech myself or do I want to make gains?
[00:13:55] Right? And if I am, you know, managing the ad networks and all that kind of [00:14:00] stuff, that is less time that I'm spending actually, you know, making games and talking to players, which is the stuff that I really want to do. So, I could have explored that more, and I'm definitely learning a lot about running a business and being business savvy and how to make these kinds of decisions as I do them, but I've never regretted working with another company for running ads.
[00:14:19] And
[00:14:19] Aaron Kardell: it seems like maybe you've switched ad providers over time. Have you only tried a couple or have you tried a few over time? Or what's that journey
[00:14:29] Abe Train: been like? I've talked to many because I hear from them pretty often. I have a spreadsheet somewhere that has like the name of the person that reached out to me and the company and just kind of like a few notes and that sort of thing.
[00:14:38] I was originally working with a great company that's based in England. Uh, should I say the name of the company? Is that sure? I think it's fine. Your call. Okay. Yeah, they're a great company. Uh, snack media, uh, based in England and I worked with them for about a year. And I, over that time, a bunch of people had reached out to me about switching and all kinds of other things.
[00:14:57] And I was still, you know, very happy with the service I was getting. And [00:15:00] then a company, uh, someone from a company called nitro pay reached out to me and they were offering a couple of different things that I wasn't getting before. Including just kind of more customizability and how the ads look like and they had, um, it seemed like it was much more tailored to games and tailored to like developers, like the person that's choosing the ads is also kind of designing them.
[00:15:22] I know a lot of bigger companies. I've never like worked actually at like a big tech company, but as I understand it, you know, they'll have the person that decides what the product looks like and the person that builds it. You know, a lot of other services and things are kind of based around that communication, but when it's just me, you know, I kind of want the direct access to as much as I can as I'm designing and building it.
[00:15:40] So the product that they had, um, made a little bit more sense for what I was doing. And then, you know, we negotiated and got a great deal. And, uh, I'm, I'm very happy with
[00:15:49] Nate Kadlac: them. What you talked about a little bit brings to mind a story. Casey Neistat is a YouTuber. And for the longest time he was like, I purposefully don't do ads.
[00:15:58] And he flipped it on one [00:16:00] time, made 40, 000 his first month because he was getting millions of views. And he was kind of like, I'm a purist. And ever since then, he's been like, the cash is fine. So I think, uh, I think you probably made the right decision. You say we a lot. Is it just you or do you have other people in your company?
[00:16:16] I,
[00:16:17] Abe Train: it is just me. I do. I work with other people. I have some friends that have helped me with things like design and running the discord server. Which has been like the whole other venture in all of this. And I also, I've paid freelancers and I have like an independent contractor that I work with on a lot of things.
[00:16:31] And that's kind of like a growing relationship. It is mostly it. I mean, it is really the company itself. The only full time employee is myself. Sometimes when I was saying we though, I meant like, like the people of Nitro Pay. That's how close we are. I am with my ad partner. We're just we. Exactly.
[00:16:46] Aaron Kardell: Spoken like a true entrepreneur and you know, on my last company for the first Two years, it was mostly me and some occasional contractors and I would talk about we with my father in law and one day he [00:17:00] just called me out like, who's we?
[00:17:02] Abe Train: Well, it's me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So
[00:17:05] Nate Kadlac: there's a couple of things in your games and one thing about ads I think in general that you've done a great job on is it doesn't feel obtrusive. And so there's a couple of games. So one game I was checking out today, genitals, which is hilarious. And I got to say like the artwork is like, did you hire an illustrator out or is that all custom?
[00:17:27] Abe Train: Yeah. So that game is, is quite different from my other ones. Um, when Globle was kind of at its peak and it was a huge amount of, um, huge number of players around the world, someone reached out to me. Uh, a filmmaker named Alex Liu, and he had just made a film about sex education, and he wanted to hire me to make a game to promote the movie.
[00:17:46] This is the only game that I've made, like, really with other people, like, he kind of decided, uh, he, like, he had an idea of what he wanted the game to be, and then I, like, designed it, and then we went back and forth with the design and the coding and that kind of stuff. And I, that's the only game I've made [00:18:00] like that, but I will say that was a great experience.
[00:18:02] Um, he was incredible to work with and had like a great vision. I guess that's the nice thing that he is also like, uh, not just like a product manager. He's a very creative person. He's a filmmaker. So, that was excellent. There are no ads on that game. I decided not to put any ads on really just that one because it doesn't get the same traffic as other games.
[00:18:19] And I already made it to promote something so it kind of like already is an advertisement and I felt that it wasn't necessary. The artwork for that though was, uh, that was from someone that's If I could just, like, gush about this a little bit, because I still love it to this day. I made it early last year, but the artwork was from an artist that he'd actually worked with a bit for the film.
[00:18:41] Her name is Kylie Millward, I believe, and she works for Planned Parenthood in Utah. And she had made some of these diagrams for a slide deck that was like an educational slide deck that she made for the organization. And Alex hired her to make a couple more to have all the diagrams for [00:19:00] the game. So every part that we talked about in the game would, you know, be represented and visible in the diagrams.
[00:19:06] And what I did with them was, uh, the way that she made the pictures was she actually made them out of plasticine and took pictures. And put them into Photoshop files. And then I took those files and I kinda separated the background. And I took the plasticine and I gave it like a, um, Just using CSS, I gave it a shadow.
[00:19:24] Uh, and then the background of the game itself is like paper. It's lined paper, right? So it looks like you have this. Plasticine model of, like, genitals on a piece of paper, and I felt that that really gave it like this, this like classroom, educational kind of aesthetic. And that is something I would not have been able to do myself.
[00:19:42] I am not an artist. I'm an artist in a sense. I'm not like a real artist. And I, I really, I really love the final product of
[00:19:48] Nate Kadlac: that. Well, I will say that the whole experience is very well themed. So yeah, like you said, it's notebook line paper, which I kind of viewed it as an ad, you know, the promotion of the video at the end of the game, but I clicked through it.
[00:19:59] I'm like, Oh, [00:20:00] this is a really interesting partnership. So he reached out to you. Do you mind sharing just from a, you don't have to go into details in terms of like cash exchange, but rev share deal where you're, you're kind of staying in your lane? So you're making money off of your advertisements. I'm kind of curious about that unique partnership between a, a, a director and, and a gamer.
[00:20:18] Abe Train: Yeah. Uh, so when he hired me to make the game, Globle was the only game that I'd made. I didn't know that I was going to make more games. I didn't know it was going to be a business. I didn't know I wasn't going to get a job somewhere else. So at the time I was just saying, Hey, I'm a freelancer. I make things for other people.
[00:20:34] And also I have a game if you like my work. So what it really was, was just like a lump sum. He just paid me a certain amounts and then I made the game. Yeah. That, and that's another reason why I don't put ads on it because I feel like, you know, there's some kind of rev share would be warranted probably.
[00:20:48] And it's just not necessary. And he's still getting. I think we're still like both kind of benefiting from the site still being up because, you know, some people will still follow the links and find the film, which is a great movie also, by the way, and [00:21:00] it's just like something else in the repertoire of educational games of Trainwreck Labs.
[00:21:04] I've been approached by a couple other people about partnerships. Nothing else has really panned out, but I would absolutely love to do a similar kind of deal that I did with Alex because, again, I just, I love the final product of that. Even if it's the game that like the fewest people interact with and play, I'm still really proud of it.
[00:21:21] Nate Kadlac: So there's one other question around this. You've built about eight games. Are you continuing to build games or do you kind of feel like, you know what, I just want to put a lot more effort into the games that I have? Or are you going to be constantly coming up with new games, you know, over the next few years?
[00:21:35] Abe Train: Yeah, I, uh, I think around the end of this summer, I kind of sat down and I talked with a mentor of mine who used to be my boss. about, you know, what are my goals? Like, what do I actually want to get out of this whole thing that I started? I sort of stumbled into it. I didn't know Globle was going to be what it became.
[00:21:50] I didn't know TrainerClouds was going to exist when I started. Um, and I had to really think about what I want. And honestly, I just love making games. So the answer is yes. I'm absolutely 100 percent going to [00:22:00] keep making games. Right now, I'm in a spot where I am making some adjustments. I'm rolling out So I rolled out the, the, the Discord is like, is alive and well and, and pumping, like there's tons of engagement on there and I love that.
[00:22:12] I'm working on a premium subscription, which I'm also running through my, uh, through the ad provider, through NitroPay, so it's kind of part of their setup. And that is, if you want to financially support the games, you can pay, you can join the trainwreck club, and you won't see any ads. And it'll be like other, you'll get other things out of it as well in the future.
[00:22:29] But, uh, for starters, that's all it is, it just removes ads. The games are always going to be free to play because and and on the web because just because like, you know That's how you get people actually engaging with it and learning something But I just wanted to have something there if people want to support and there will be other features associated with it as well So that's the trainwreck club.
[00:22:47] And then also I am right now working on a newsletter, which is just something else I'm gonna add on top of it which is gonna have the answers to previous days games people have asked me like Can I get a newsletter with the answer to previous days games on a goal if? If the [00:23:00] people are asking for it, then of course, and it's going to have like a fun fact and I kind of want to do something fun with that as well.
[00:23:06] So those are some other projects I'm working on in the meantime. I have an idea for my next game and some very half baked ideas of future games beyond that. And I am trying to get through this current stuff as quickly as I can so I can get back to doing what I really love. That's
[00:23:19] Aaron Kardell: awesome. So I've got to imagine, you know, now that you're monetizing games, Globle is probably still Far and away the big hit.
[00:23:28] Is it safe to say that that's like well over 50 percent of your revenue or are you starting to see more uptick across some of the other games? Yeah, I
[00:23:38] Abe Train: would say that a Globle is, is over 50 percent of the, just make the ad revenue from Globle is so 50 percent of the revenue that I get. And then the next biggest one is Metazua, which is the more recent game.
[00:23:49] It was a great feeling when that one also took off, because it's like, Oh, okay, I'm not, I'm not a one hit wonder, you know, this is something else that has its own feat. Um, and then there's Globle Capitals and Chronogram, and those are kind of the ones that are, that are [00:24:00] making money. And then there's the smaller games, like, uh, Forges and Genital, which aren't really, like, making money, but I still kind of have them on the site, and they're still, and I love for people to play them and interact with them.
[00:24:10] And learn something from them. But yeah, in terms of the money makers, it is a, it's a bit of a logarithmic scale, I guess, you know, like the ones that are really big or like really big. And then, you know, it kind of, it goes down orders of magnitude.
[00:24:22] Nate Kadlac: I know. So I'm kind of curious, like, have you thought about domains and just in general, like, it looks like you have most of your games on their own domains.
[00:24:30] Is that right?
[00:24:30] Abe Train: Or? Yeah. Okay. With the notable exception of the plant version of metazoa. So metazoa, you got to find the mystery animal. If you want to find the mystery plant, it has another name. It's metaflora, but the domain is just flora. metazua. com. Okay. And
[00:24:45] Nate Kadlac: we've spoken with other developers about this, you know, pay to remove ads fee, and it hasn't worked out in the way that they had wanted in the past.
[00:24:54] Do you have any insight or have you done any research kind of like how you might approach it differently or what are the. [00:25:00] Other bonuses or features you've kind of alluded to, uh, might be,
[00:25:03] Abe Train: I'm, I'm, I'm honestly not surprised to hear that. I don't, I don't hear from people asking for like an option to remove ads.
[00:25:10] When I first put ads on Globle, like I was talking about before a part of me was like, oh man, people are going to be furious. They're going to like, you know, never play the game again. It's, it's going to be a huge nightmare. And, and no one cared because people. Really? And I don't know, maybe this is controversial to say, but like people expect ads, people are used to ads and they just, you know, find them everywhere.
[00:25:29] And like we, and I made for, for better or for worse, you know, we kind of just like, we're so desensitized and it's so natural to us to just see ads all the time. So people weren't. Really hurt when ads showed up and they don't really they don't care too much for ads to be removed I wanted something there kind of just an option for people if they if they want to support, you know, and The open up another revenue stream would be great, you know But I'm not expecting like an influx of people saying like oh finally this is this exists In terms of other things that [00:26:00] I have in mind in the future, I'm hoping that the newsletter, uh, to get a sponsor for the newsletter, I'm working with Beehive to figure that out.
[00:26:06] And, uh, I'm not really sure how that's gonna go. This is very new. This is pretty different for me. But, uh, I guess we'll find out. Just kind of make the best product that I can in that sense, and see what happens. And then, something else that I haven't done, a couple of these other games I've done this already and I really need to get on it is a multiplayer version or it's either a multiplayer version or Like a classroom version where a teacher because I I hear from teachers that play my games in class Which is my favorite thing in the world as I I love I love to hear from teachers What this would look like is you like for Globle?
[00:26:38] for example you choose the mystery country and your friend tries to figure out what the country you chose was or you you're a teacher and you pick the country and the Class has to like see you can get there the fastest Right now I'm considering making that a part of the trainer club, the premium feature.
[00:26:53] I don't really know. I'm not sure how I'm going to build it yet. And I think there's just so many questions I need to figure out first. [00:27:00] I'm gonna, it's not the next thing I do, it's probably like an early 2024, early ish 2024 thing. But, um, that's a, it's a project that I'm really excited about and I think we'll It's going to find its way into the ecosystem somehow.
[00:27:12] I'm just not sure yet. If you figure
[00:27:14] Nate Kadlac: all of that out, let us know. Yeah.
[00:27:18] Abe Train: It's a challenge. That's yeah. Yeah. The technical challenges are the fun ones, you know, now the design stuff is, is like, you don't really know what you're doing until it's all finished. And you're like, Oh, thank God. But the technical stuff I find is like, okay, you know, you just tackle it step by step.
[00:27:32] What's
[00:27:32] Nate Kadlac: funny about the ads is that, you know, we've thought about this as well, removing them, you know, for a small fee. But when you have ads, like we get emails all the time from people saying, I just want to pay you, like, thank you. Here's send me something, you know, and I know the waffle game creator has kind of like a, um, you know, just donate money and I've gone onto his donations list and he's getting hundreds of dollars a day, you know, just from people donating like 5 here and there.
[00:27:57] Wow. So I don't know.
[00:27:59] Abe Train: [00:28:00] I, uh, maybe it's game specific, but when Globle launched, I had a link to buy me a coffee, you know, have you heard of that site?
[00:28:06] Nate Kadlac: Mm hmm. Yes. I think he uses buy me a burrito.
[00:28:09] Abe Train: Oh yeah. That one's. Well, honestly, burrito sounds great, but, uh, yeah, I had that up, um, for people to send tips. And so I guess Globle was, I guess, making a little bit of money before, before I put ads on it.
[00:28:20] When I put ads on, I decided to take that away. I felt, um, and this is another one of those things where it's like, like a principle, but like that comes from where exactly that I thought it would be like disingenuous to be asking for tips and also, you know, making money from you being there with the ads.
[00:28:35] But yeah, you know, I actually I was literally today responding to an email where someone was like, how can I support and I was like, well, there's a subscription, but you maybe don't want a subscription. So I don't know. I don't know. That's a that's a good question. Maybe I'll explore that again as
[00:28:49] Nate Kadlac: well. So Abe, would you be willing to share any upcoming Game designs are things that you're working on.
[00:28:55] Abe Train: Yeah, sure. So I mentioned earlier that the planned version of Metazua [00:29:00] Metaflora runs on a subdomain. What I did to make the two versions of the game is it's actually the same code base. It's like literally the same code. So if I make an update to Metazua, it's going to hit Metaflora as well. I did not do that with Globle and Globle capitals, and so I have to keep them in sync, which I'm honestly not always the best at, and I run into some trouble there.
[00:29:20] This obviously has trade offs too, you know, there are certainly places in where the games are different, primarily the data, but the data is kind of easy to just like swap in and swap out with an environment variable, so that's not too much trouble. And then the design, like the background, but again, I was able to kind of just like switch the colors with environment variables, and that's how I get them going.
[00:29:38] Overall, I was very pleased with how that worked out. And so using this, a subdomain and the same repo for an alternate version of the game is something I'm going to try again with Chronogram. So, that is my history game. I'll just describe it briefly. Uh, every day there's a different historical figure.
[00:29:55] And, uh, you gotta figure out who it is by asking them questions. And what you're, you're [00:30:00] not actually talking to the person because they're all dead. You're talking to ChatGPT. I'm using the, um, OpenAI API to talk to ChatGPT. And you have like a back and forth there. So, I have this version of the game that has all kinds of, uh, it has, I found like a list of the most notable people from history.
[00:30:16] And, uh, the way that it works is every day there's a different one. But, uh, there's some issues with that list. A lot of people have pointed out to me that it is a lot of, uh, it's not very diverse. You know? And it has some issues there. So, what I tell people when they say that is like, Hey, I'm totally open to suggestions.
[00:30:34] Let's mix it up a little bit. And so, in the Discord server, I have people reaching out and, uh, offering suggestions and, and getting some really, really interesting people I never would have thought to put on there. And then, alternatively, and like I was talking about before with Metaflora, is I want to make another version of the game for fictional characters.
[00:30:50] I don't know if I'm going to narrow it down more than that, I'm like, I feel like there's enough Harry Potter characters for just like a Harry Potter version of the game, almost. Or if it's going to be [00:31:00] like, any character from any book, or any person that isn't real. I don't know exactly how I'm going to do that yet, but a fictional version of Chronogram is definitely on the horizon.
[00:31:10] And I think, from what I learned about setting up Metaflora, should be pretty straightforward to put together. Um, I also am looking at, uh, or I started building, and it's a little bit on pause for now. But, uh, Metazua for dinosaurs, Paleozua. I thought no one would play the plant version of the game because it is so hard.
[00:31:29] I have no idea how closely related walnuts are to peaches, you know? Like, it's a really difficult game. Well, I guess a quick description of these games, because I don't think I've said it yet, but the way Metazua and Metaflora work is you have kind of the tree of life, you have a phylogenetic tree, and every day there is a, for Metazua, a mystery animal, and you have to figure out what it is just by guessing animals, and each wrong guess tells you how close that wrong guess is to the answer on the phylogenetic tree.
[00:31:57] So, for example, if the answer is [00:32:00] human, and you guess it'll show you that they're both mammals but don't have much else in common, whereas if you guess chimpan if your next guess is chimpanzee, then it'll show you that they're both primates and that's kind of how, um, how that game works. Metaflora is very similar, but very, very hard, um, and I think the dinosaur version will be even harder, but, uh, what I've learned from these games is that There are nerds out there.
[00:32:22] There are people that are really, really into biology and evolution and taxonomy and know a whole awful lot more about those topics than I do. And I am 100 percent certain that there are some dinosaur nerds out there, too, that will enjoy this game. So I'm going to put that together as well. So,
[00:32:39] Aaron Kardell: you know, I think a lot of developers that are watching the Hey, Good Game podcast, I think they're inspired by.
[00:32:46] People like you who are, are doing this as, as their full-time thing. And one of our first guests, Holger, uh, with online solitaire.com, you know, he got some notoriety a couple years ago because he wrote a [00:33:00] blog post that, you know, basically said he was making 10 KA month off of his, uh, solitaire game. And just wondering, Abe, are, is there.
[00:33:09] Obviously you're doing this as your full time thing. Is there any more tangible inspiration you can give to other developers out there as to just how well you're
[00:33:19] Abe Train: doing? As a, as a well put question, I would say that, uh, and bearing in mind that still most of the revenue is coming from Globle, just that one game.
[00:33:30] Uh, which I am just so eternally grateful for, but, uh, I will say that it's, it's on the same order of magnitude as you just described to keep things in, in vague terms.
[00:33:40] Aaron Kardell: Fair enough. Appreciate the candor though. Uh, so Abe, a lot of your games are very educational and we feel an affinity to that at, uh, Hey Good Game focusing on, on brainy games.
[00:33:53] Can you tell us about what draws you to that and just, uh, how you feel about that? I
[00:33:58] Abe Train: was [00:34:00] I was interviewed recently, uh, for a magazine about conservation. So it's kind of from the other side of things, it's from the topic of the game rather than about games itself. And that was about Metazua and Metaflora.
[00:34:10] And I was asked a question, I don't remember exactly how she put it, but it was kind of about what I enjoy and like, you know, why I make these kinds of games in particular. And what I was very pleased to say, and I kind of, I didn't say, I've never said this out loud until, like, really reflecting on it for that question, was that I am very, very grateful that what I do, uh, making these games is something that I certainly feel is a net benefit.
[00:34:36] It is a good thing. Um, I think I, it's the reason that I try to make all of my games educational. Starting with Globle, I, I didn't know, I thought Globle was just kind of, you know, A fun thing to pass the time, but then I found so many teachers in classrooms and just like ordinary people were reaching out to me and saying they were using it to learn geography.
[00:34:53] And I thought that was so incredible and then kind of, I, I'm trying to recreate that with all of my games because I want all of them [00:35:00] and I want just basically all the work that I do to have kind of a positive impact on the world. And if it can be, you know, in any way that that is, and, and I think education is a great place to do that, so I guess what I, where I go with this is, uh, I'm very, very grateful that that is the kind of work that I'm able to do, and that's why I focus on these kinds of games, and that's all the kinds of games that I make in the future are, are going to hopefully also have this kind of net benefit, or hopefully be able to teach some People something
[00:35:28] Nate Kadlac: new.
[00:35:28] I'm really glad you said that because you answered one of my questions and I can't remember exactly where this quote is from. I think it's from reality is broken by Jane McGonigal where she describes why people play games and it's because they. Want to keep learning. If they stop learning, they stop playing.
[00:35:47] And I think that's what I think brings some of the success you've had with your games. Because you are trying to teach and educate people through your gameplay. And I think that's such a brilliant way to approach Building games. [00:36:00] I
[00:36:00] Abe Train: really appreciate that. Thank you. I keep meaning to check out Jane McGonigal's books I think I had a class once where we talked about one of them, but I'll absolutely know so a where
[00:36:09] Nate Kadlac: can people
[00:36:09] Abe Train: find you online That's a that's a great question.
[00:36:11] I used to when I first started Globle the number one way I interacted people was Twitter and Twitter, in its old form, does not exist anymore in many ways, and I'm not a huge fan of the new platform. So, I try to have all my conversations with players, um, and I'm very responsive on Discord. I've mentioned the server a few times, but you can get to the Discord server from the footer of any Trainwreck Labs game.
[00:36:35] It is a super welcoming and fun and respectful and educational community. I'm on there like all the time and I'm always responding to the tiniest questions and bug reports and suggestions and I think it's a great way to meet other people to, uh, who are, enjoy these kinds of games and these topics as well.
[00:36:52] So I encourage, uh, everyone that's a fan of Trainwreck Labs games to, to join us over there. That's
[00:36:57] Nate Kadlac: great. Thanks so much for being here,
[00:36:58] Abe Train: Abe. My pleasure.[00:37:00]
