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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley:
Well, hello, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host, Meredith Brock.
Meredith:
Well, hey, Kaley. I am imagining our friends just driving home from work or maybe the school pickup line today, reminiscing on what went wrong.
Kaley:
Because we all have bad days.
Meredith:
Oh my gosh, do we ever. Or maybe you're absolutely dreading that follow-up conversation that you know need to have with your friend or your co-worker or maybe your husband, but you're just really not looking forward to it. Oh my word, I have been there. And that is why I am so excited for our listeners who are tuning in today because they're going to get some of the most practical, biblically sound advice from our guest, Donna Jones. So drumroll please ... Managing conflict in a healthy way.
Kaley:
I know, very practical! But honestly, if we can't get this right, then we're set up for failure. And we need to be able to get this right, especially as women who interact with a lot of people all the time. And we are tone setters.
Meredith:
That's right, Kaley.
Kaley:
We’ve got to set the tone well. As always, friends, we want to go ahead and let you know about the resources you can access with today's episode. One of them is Donna's book, titled Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life, and the other is a free resource called “Three Questions To Ask Before You Respond.” Both of these are linked for you today in the show notes, so you can grab them right now before you listen.
All right, friends, let's dive into today's episode. Well, Meredith, I'm so excited to introduce our guest for today's show, Donna Jones. Welcome to the show, Donna.
Donna Jones:
I am thrilled to be here.
Meredith:
Well, Donna is joining us from the sunny state of California.
Kaley:
Lovely.
Meredith:
I love that state. I love visiting. And she and her husband planted a church in 2005, so on top of being a wife, and a pastor's wife at that, she's a mom, a grandmother, a podcaster and an author.
I actually want to talk a bit about the program and how we got to know our friend Donna. So, Donna, can you share with us about your journey as a writer, author, and how you've gotten to know Proverbs 31 [Ministries]?
Donna Jones:
Well, sure, I'd love to. This was not my first book proposal. This is actually my third book. So I'd written a book proposal before, but Proverbs 31 [Ministries] had a program that taught me how to craft an excellent book proposal, and it turned out to be invaluable.
Actually, Meredith, you and I were talking before we hit “record” … You turned out to be invaluable to me as well because my first book proposal with Thomas Nelson got all the way down to the very end, and then it was rejected. You had said I could call you. And so I did, and I asked you a bunch of questions about why it was rejected, and you gave me the best advice.
You said, "Your subject matter is too broad, so go back, look at your book proposal, and within that original book proposal, you are going to find what actually should be your book." And so I took your advice, and I went back, and I combed through what I had already written. I narrowed it down. I wrote another book proposal, and that book proposal, thanks to Proverbs 31 [Ministries], was accepted by Thomas Nelson.
Kaley:
I love that so much, and I love that you were able to share your story with us, Donna, because part of the heart of Proverbs 31 [Ministries] that not a lot of people know is that we believe that women have been given a specific calling by God, and for some of them, it's through writing, and they have a unique message. I love that Proverbs 31 is a champion for women not only sharing the message God has given them but being equipped to do so in a way that honors the Lord. We also [want to] give them every opportunity to be able to elevate that message to the right audience.
And so we're actually going to tell everybody a little bit more about the writers training platform that we have here at Proverbs later on in the show. But first, Donna, you're here to share with us from your new book. Congratulations, by the way.
Donna Jones:
Thank you.
Kaley:
Yeah. It's called Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life: A Biblical Guide to Communicating Thoughts, Feelings, and Opinions with Grace, Truth, and Zero Regret. Maybe we should stop this recording now, and I'll just go read the book — because that sounds like something we all need!
But here's what I know. I know that I want to be a woman who regrets nothing after a hard conversation. But sometimes it doesn't go perfectly, and I need a little help there, and I think everybody listening could probably use a little bit of help, too, on their drive to or from work or wherever they're headed. Donna, I'm eager to hear what you're going to share with us today, so why don't you take it away?
Donna Jones:
Well, my sweet Proverbs 31 friend, we've never met, but I know you. Now, how could I possibly say that? Well, if I ask you about your deepest joy, you'd smile and tell me about a relationship, wouldn't you? A child, a spouse, a parent, a friend. But if I ask you about your deepest heartache, you'd also tell me about a relationship. Am I right?
You see, nothing affects us quite as profoundly as our relationships, both positively and negatively, which means our deepest hurt comes from relationships that go wrong, which often happens due to some form of conflict.
Let's just be honest: Conflict consumes us.
Now, sure, when conflict happens, we still function on the outside. I mean, we take the kids to school, run errands, go to work, call our moms, but on the inside, well, that's a whole different story. We replay conversations in our heads. We relay the conflict to our friends. We may even pray about the conflict to God.
We obsess over what he said, what she said, what we said, what we wished we'd said. I still remember the day I sat alone in my car ... I was heartbroken and confused about a particularly painful conflict. My husband and I had become unwitting players in a heart-wrenching church-hurt experience, and I was devastated.
I wiped my tears, and I blew my nose before I picked up the phone to dial my best friend. As I waited for my friend to answer, I happened to glance into my rearview mirror. Puffy lids and bloodshot eyes stared back at me. Lovely, just lovely, I remember thinking. My oversized sunglasses would have to remain glued to my face if my friend could free herself long enough to meet me for lunch.
Now, the truth surrounding those dark days was that I'd come to the emotional edge where I was primed to consider anything to stop the pain. However, I didn't want to live with regret, shame or guilt caused by handling the conflict the wrong way. I honestly just wanted to know what to do. I needed to know what to do. More specifically, I needed to know what God wanted me to do, which can be hard to discern when your emotions feel like they've been shredded like cheese.
So let's just be honest here: Conflict hurts, which makes it hard to handle in a holy way. But you already know this, don't you? You, like me, have been hurt by conflict. Sadly, you, like me, have also probably hurt others in conflict. The truth is intense conflict can bring out the beast in the best women among us.
We don't want to yell at our kids, but we're embarrassed to admit that we do. We know the silent treatment won't draw us closer to our spouse, but we continue to shut him out. We don't want our friendship to fade into oblivion, but we can't seem to find the courage to address the hurt.
Frankly, not many of us know — and I mean really know — how to handle conflict in a God-honoring, peace-producing, regret-relieving way. But we want to. Since the days where I found myself sitting alone in the car with bloodshot eyes and puffy lids, God has taught me some life-changing truths about how to handle conflict so we don't hang our heads in regret or shame and wonder, Why did I handle it that way?
Here's what I've discovered along the way. First, sometimes I've accidentally made things worse rather than better. It's not that I wanted to; it's not that I meant to. Largely, it happened out of ignorance. Here's another truth I discovered: We can actually stop many arguments before they even start. With a little wisdom and by applying God's Word, we can cut conflict off at the pass.
And here's the good news: Stopping an argument before it starts is a surefire way to increase our relational peace and decrease our relational problems. This is true whether we're talking about a relationship with a spouse, a child, a co-worker or a friend. So today we're going to roll up our sleeves and get uber practical as we discuss three ways we can stop an argument before it starts.
Here's No. 1: Communicate expectations up front. The truth is if we don't communicate our expectations on the front end, they'll eventually get communicated on the back end, often in a way that can turn pretty ugly. Now, some people say the key to minimizing conflict is to let go of expectations. And while this may be ideal, in my experience, it's just not real. We all have expectations. The real key is to keep our expectations realistic and to communicate those expectations or desires up front.
Now, when my husband JP and I were newly married, I learned this principle the hard way. JP and I had a nightly routine. We came home late after a long day's work, put on our PJs, watched 10 minutes of whatever show was on TV, then scooped ourselves a bowl of vanilla ice cream. Nothing about this scenario changed, not even the flavor of ice cream.
So one night, 10 minutes into our television show, JP got up and walked into the kitchen. Of course, I knew exactly what he was doing. So when he walked back into our family room with one bowl of ice cream, I was a little surprised.
"Where's my bowl of ice cream?" I asked.
"What do you mean?" JP was actually genuinely confused.
"We eat ice cream together every night. How could you not know I'd want ice cream too?"
In complete innocence, or maybe it was simply ignorance, JP responded, "How could I know you wanted ice cream, Donna, unless you told me you wanted ice cream?"
He was sure his logic was airtight. News flash: Conflict is rarely logical. To this day, I have no idea why an issue of a ridiculous bowl of ice cream made me mad. Maybe it was low blood sugar or exhaustion or PMS — I don't know — but for whatever reason, I shot off the couch, stomped into the kitchen, jerked open the freezer door, and muttered something super encouraging under my breath, like, "I have married the most clueless man on earth."
Now, at this point, JP decided to take out the trash. It was summertime, and our kitchen window was open. I watched him walk past once, but on his way back into the house, he paused in front of the window. He put his face right up to the screen, and a huge smile beamed across his face.
Then my husband uttered one sentence that changed our relationship forever: "Expectation without communication leads to frustration."
I laughed out loud because it is so true. Side note: If you've ever heard this phrase before or you've seen it on social media, now you know where it originated over three decades ago. Expectation without communication always leads to frustration.
If I'd simply said, "Hey, I’d like ice cream too. Can you bring me a bowl?" my husband would've gladly obliged, and we would never have had an argument. This is why it's so vital to communicate our expectations up front if we want to stop an argument before it starts.
But you might be wondering, OK, is this even biblical? It sure is. Ephesians 4:25 says, "Therefore, each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body" (NIV). Now, most of us have probably never considered the failure to communicate our needs, wants and expectations as a failure to speak truth — but it is. As a result, we create conflict in scenarios where truthful communication could help us avoid conflict.
Whenever we think things like, Well, of course, surely, everybody knows that … He should just know … we have an expectation of not only how another person will behave but of how they should behave. This happens in friendships, at work, in parenting and marriage. But when we communicate our expectations on the front end, we minimize the likelihood of frustration on the back end.
For example, with our kids, we can communicate our expectation up front by saying, "Hey, after you finish your snack, put your dishes in the dishwasher" rather than afterwards saying something like, "You are such a slob. Am I this family's personal maid?"
With our spouse, we can say, "Hey sweetheart, my birthday's coming up and I'd really like ..." instead of remaining silent and hoping he figures out what we want.
With our teens, we can say, "Hey, remember: Your curfew's 11 p.m. That doesn't mean 11:05. Have a great time tonight. I'll see you at 11, and I can't wait to hear all about it."
What do all these statements have in common? They are clear, they are concise, they are kind, and they help us avoid the frustration that inevitably leads to conflict.
Sometimes though, we don't know we have an expectation until it goes unfulfilled. That's what happened with our silly ice cream argument. When this is the case, we can simply pay attention to issues where we repeatedly find ourselves frustrated. Often repeated frustration happens over a specific topic, like in-laws, homework, household chores, schedules, finances, free time ... Think about the last time you had an argument with a child, spouse, parent, co-worker. Was there an unmet expectation? Probably. Next, ask yourself, Did I communicate my expectation clearly and kindly? If not, start there. If you did communicate your expectation, the next tip will be particularly helpful.
So tip No. 1 is: Communicate expectations up front. Tip No. 2 is: Affirm the person before you address the problem. Now, this tip is particularly helpful when we need to have a hard conversation. When most people begin a hard conversation, they start by saying, "We need to talk." Now, this of course causes dread to course through our veins. When we hear, "We need to talk," our brains immediately begin to mine for situations where we did something wrong and our emotions move to fight-or-flight mode. Our defenses get raised from the get-go, because these words, "We need to talk," are perceived as an attack, no matter how subtly. Since none of us wants to be attacked, conversations that begin this way will likely end in blame, deflection, excuses, raised voices or worse — complete dismissal or denial. No one wins. And conflict is virtually guaranteed.
What can we do instead so a hard conversation doesn't morph into a hurtful conflict? Three simple things: 1.) affirm the person or the relationship, 2.) ask a question, 3.) address an issue, not issues. These three tools — the Triple A’s, as I like to call them: affirm, ask, address — set us up for the best possible outcome when a difficult conversation is necessary.
Years ago, a friend and I planned to meet for lunch at a restaurant halfway between us, which was still a 40-minute drive. Moments before I reached the restaurant, I received a text: "Oops, should have texted you earlier, but I need to reschedule. I'm having lunch with my husband." I turned my car around and tried to convince myself it was silly to be offended. It was a careless mistake, I told myself. Minutes later, though, I wrestled with feelings of anger. How could she be so inconsiderate? But five minutes later: Let it go — she's a friend.
My thoughts and feelings changed so fast, I had emotional whiplash. Had this been her first last-minute cancellation, I would've chalked it up to a simple oversight, but it wasn't. And I knew that if I ignored the situation, I'd create space for bitterness to develop, or worse, I might end up distancing myself from my friend completely.
I knew I needed to talk to her but wondered, How do I have a conversation where I feel heard but she doesn't feel defensive? And isn't that just the relational question of the decade? After my friend's cancellation, I let a day pass before I set a time to FaceTime. Minutes before our conversation, I prayed for wisdom. I had planned to lead the conversation by expressing my feelings, but when I saw her face on the screen, the Holy Spirit whispered, Stop. I decided to lead with affirming and listening instead.
"Hey, it's so good to see you. I've missed you and our long talks," I began.
"I've missed you too."
"What happened yesterday?" I wondered aloud. My friend went on to explain a backstory surrounding a difficulty involving her husband — one I'd had no idea she'd been navigating until I paused long enough to ask and then listen.
Because I simply affirmed our relationship, then asked a question, I received a more complete picture about the situation, and that additional information helped me know what to say next. "I'm so sorry to hear about all that's been going on. Now your last-minute cancellation makes more sense. Honestly, though, I wish you'd texted earlier or at least called me afterwards to explain. Can you understand why?"
"Yes, and I am so sorry. Truthfully, I felt embarrassed about my last-minute cancellation, and I thought it would be easier not to say anything. Donna, I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you talked to me about this right away so it didn't end up hurting our friendship."
Wow. I absolutely did not see it playing out so positively, but maybe I should have. James 1:19 says to let everyone “be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry" (NIV). When we pause long enough to ask a question before we launch into our grievance, we're applying this verse. We're being quick to listen and slow to speak, and as a result, we're slow to anger.
Of course, not all conversations will have a happily-ever-after ending like this one did. Still, when we affirm the person, ask a question, then address the issue, we set ourselves up for the best-case scenario: more connection and understanding. But even if the conversation doesn't unfold like we hope, the worst-case scenario is that we minimize the chances of a relational conflict becoming a relational catastrophe.
So the first two tips for stopping an argument before it starts are: 1.) Communicate expectations up front and 2.) use the Triple A’s to affirm, ask and address. But there's one more thing we can do to prevent conflict from happening. No. 3: Stop, look and listen.
Did you know that we take an estimated 34 billion selfies a year? That, my friend, is [billions of] cries to be noticed every single day. The need to be noticed is woven into our DNA. And an unnoticed person will do anything to be noticed, including instigate conflict. This is why our child acts up when we're on the phone or our toddler acts out when we pay attention to the new baby. It's why we get annoyed if our friend glances at her cell phone when we're trying to tell her something important. It's why we become angry when our husband is glued to the TV when we feel like we haven't connected in weeks.
One of the most astounding truths I discovered while researching my book, Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life, came from the Gottman Center on Relationships. Researchers found that the single biggest indicator in determining whether a relationship would go the distance was the answer to one single question: Do people pay positive attention to one another? Paying attention — stopping, looking and listening — may be the most effective and simplest way to stop an argument before it starts. After all, who wants to fight with someone who's giving them positive attention?
When my husband was in seminary, he learned about the three-minute rule. Essentially, the rule states that the first three minutes of any human interaction set the tone for the interaction for the rest of the day. Think about it. When you come home to children fighting, that sets the tone. When you wake up to a grouchy spouse, that sets the tone. When you walk into work and are greeted by a stressed out co-worker, that sets the tone.
However, the reverse is also true. A positive first three minutes sets the tone too. When I first learned about the three-minute rule, my mind rewound to my childhood and the way my dad came home each night and the way my mom greeted him when he did. No matter what time of day my dad arrived home, he'd walk through the front door and bellow a deep hello. And no matter where my mom was or what she was doing, she'd pause and respond, "Hey."
With those two words and the tone of voice in which they were said — "hello" and "hey" — my dad communicated “I'm so glad to be home,” and my mom communicated “I'm so glad you are home.” They set a positive tone of noticing in three seconds, not even three minutes. Still, it's comforting to know that we have three minutes, which is important if the first three seconds aren't all we want them to be. And let's just be honest — in real life, sometimes they aren't.
However, we can turn the tone of our relationships around simply by stopping, looking and listening, paying positive, life-giving attention to those in our world.
So there you have it — three practical ways to stop an argument before it starts. No. 1: Communicate expectations up front. No. 2: Use the three A’s to affirm, ask, address. And No. 3: Stop, look and listen.
Kaley: Donna, thank you so much for your teaching today. It was so practical. Meredith and I were actually giggling a little bit whenever you said the first three minutes set the tone for the day because I think both of us thought about our toddlers waking up at 4:30 in the morning and how that really sets —
Meredith:
Sets the tone.
Kaley:
— a great tone for the day, super early in the morning. But you can't control a toddler.
Meredith:
And they're so cute.
Kaley:
Are they … all the time? I mean, coffee's not even automatically ready at 4:30 in the morning.
Meredith:
It's true.
Kaley:
I actually have to push the button to get it started.
Meredith:
It's true.
Kaley:
But, Donna, I have a thought, and I have a theory that I want to ask you a little bit more about. You were getting started in your teaching, and I thought about how my typical approach to conflict is I'm a little fearful of it. Meredith's approach to conflict is I know that she's not really fearful of it. But [addressing Meredith] I know you've gotten better at it.
I wrote this down: “Just because you're not afraid of conflict doesn't mean you're actually good at conflict.”
Meredith:
Oh yeah.
Kaley:
And I think that that is so true, but I think for people who aren't afraid of conflict, the way that our human nature approaches conflict … Let's remember how the world defines “conflict.” A war starts out as a conflict. And there are winners and losers.
Meredith:
That's right.
Kaley:
And I think that is the wrong perception of conflict — because most of us go into it, whether you're afraid of it or not afraid of it, with a little defensiveness because you're like, I've got to prove my side. I've got to prove that I'm right about this.
But, Donna, I know that that's not the right way we should look at it. We shouldn't have a goal of winning a conflict. So I would like for you to tell us in all of your research, and as your book on conflict has developed, how would you define what our goal of a conflict should be, as believers, whenever we enter into it? What are we envisioning on the other side before we even start the conversation?
Donna Jones:
Yes, that is such an excellent question. Well, I have two thoughts about that, and my first thought is a mind shift about conflict. Well, actually, they're both mind shifts about conflict. The first one is this: For those of us who feel like we want to just avoid conflict — and we just want it to end really quickly so we don't have to deal with it — the mind shift is instead of thinking, I just want this conflict to be over, we start thinking, I just want this conflict to make us better. That little shift can really give us the tools we need to work through conflict when we'd really just rather avoid it.
And for those of us who aren't afraid of conflict, who maybe are a little bit more aggressive in our dealings with conflict, then the mind shift that I would recommend … I really say this for everybody: Conflict is not you against me. It's you and me against the problem. And so when we view it that way — “you and me against the problem” versus “you against me” — that radically changes how we view conflict with people because we put ourselves on the same side of an issue, and we're trying to solve this problem together. Does that make sense?
Meredith:
Oh yeah, that's great, Donna. And I would say as a less conflict-averse individual — I am, and it's interesting — I can't remember exactly how you said it, Kaley, but I liked what you said … It's not like I like conflict. It's not like I'm pursuing conflict. I just really do not like unresolved issues hanging around in my life. And so I would rather just rip the Band-Aid off and have the pain of ripping the Band-Aid off than having a lingering issue in my life. As I've gotten older, I have learned how to rip the Band-Aid off less painfully.
Donna, I really loved your final point. For me, I would say that was probably the No. 1 thing that I needed to learn: to stop, look and listen. Because I had no problem communicating. I learned to communicate. I always ... Let me try this again: I have no problem communicating expectations. I learned over time that I wasn't communicating them clearly, kind of like your ice cream story, Donna.
In my mind, I'd be like, Wait a minute — we talked about this. You should know this. And then I would realize, Wow, I was not clear. I don't really have a hard time affirming someone before I would say something hard. But where I found myself tripping over and over and over again — and I'm slowly making progress — is in this moment of, I don't need to run into this conflict. There's no reason for me to just run in. Meredith, stop, look around, and set the right tone. Listen to this person before you go running into it. Your desired outcome is to be together as a team, no matter who it is, against the problem — and not you against the person. It's been a slow, slow process of the Holy Spirit teaching me some things here, and Donna, I think this book is going to be so helpful to so many people. I wish I would've read it when I was 20 years old.
Kaley:
Yeah, because I think it's definitely helpful. I know we've talked a lot about women's tendency sometimes to Oreo people. If you don't know what Oreo-ing is … Meredith, will you explain?
Meredith:
Here, I'm going to give an example.
Kaley:
OK, great.
Meredith:
Kaley, I love what you're wearing today, but the way that you talked to me earlier was really disrespectful, but I also really like your shoes.
Kaley:
Right.
Meredith:
It's compliment, critique, compliment.
Kaley:
But usually the critique is way overpowered by positive, and then it gets lost — right? — in what you're actually trying to communicate. And I appreciate, Donna, the fact that you came across with this message full of grace and wisdom, and you helped us know how to affirm the person, but we're still not missing what actually needs to be addressed in a loving way. More so than the affirmation of the person … It's just simply saying, "I see you."
And I think that we just have been misled and misrepresented a lot in how to actually have really healthy conflict that accomplishes something rather than just feels like a conversation that got nowhere, and then you're at the same place at the same time next week.
Donna Jones:
Exactly.
Kaley:
Donna, we really appreciate you coming on the show today and just sharing with us. And I'm grateful for your heart for women to develop their Christlike character in an area that we struggle with, like we talked about. Guys, get your copy of Donna's book called Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life today by visiting the link in our show notes.
Meredith:
And while you're waiting on your copy of Donna's fantastic book to arrive in your mailbox, we would recommend you download Proverbs 31 [Ministries]' free resource, “Three Questions To Ask Before You Respond.” How about that? This should help you ensure your focus is on improving that relationship instead of trying to prove that you're right. We have linked that in our show notes as well.
Kaley:
Yep. And lastly, if you are an aspiring writer like Donna, you guys can check out our COMPEL Pro Writers Training platform by Proverbs 31 Ministries. For over 12 years — wow, Meredith, that's a long time.
Meredith:
Yes.
Donna Jones:
Twelve years!
Meredith:
We've been training people for a long time.
Kaley:
We have. We have been training people through this platform and have helped thousands of women steward the message God has given them, especially when they're not sure of the best next step to take. When you join, you'll get access to brand-new learning pathways by writing professionals like our very own Lysa TerKeurst, a New York Times bestselling author, as well as Dr. Joel Muddamalle and so many more [people]. Check out our membership options, available at compeltraining.com.
Meredith:
That's it for today, friends. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we help you know the Truth and live the Truth because it really does change everything.