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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep19
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Liz Herl: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Anchored in Chaos podcast.
Tim Caldwell: Liz, thank you for having me back.
Liz Herl: Yes, well, you always say that.
So let's talk about our podcast episode today is going to be over the truth that breaks and heals when honesty challenges love. Right now we're seeing a lot of ideas around how important it is to be honest. That shouldn't be a new idea or concept [00:01:00] for individuals, but it's a lot more challenging at times.
And so we just want to kind of go over what that looks like maybe take a deep dive into those complex emotions that shape our relationships, our decisions, and our understandings around ourselves.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. What's most important about what we're gonna talk about is that we often hear that truth is pretty much the foundation of a really strong relationship.
Sure. Easier said than done. What we both know is that sometimes truth can be a really hard pill to swallow, and in that it could hurt more than a lie where we draw that line is when the honesty of the person in relationship. Comes forward and will that threaten the relationship?
It's really important that we find out that the honesty is what binds us and if something's been eroding that honesty for some time, those bonds get weaker. And then one day They break, and sometimes they can break with a lie, but sometimes they can break with brutal honesty.
Liz Herl: Brutal honesty, sure. [00:02:00] So, in looking at, do you believe that people can survive true honesty in statements and actions when we get into expressing ourselves, can you have love and truth in equal measure?
Tim Caldwell: Mm hmm.
Liz Herl: Or Does that come at the expense, one at the expense of the other?
How do we do that?
Tim Caldwell: You have to start with the core issue and that's honesty. And mutual agreeance on what that definition is going to be and the honesty that you, that you project. We all agree that there's the secret to being honest is that there's truth in it.
And that it should be coming from love, especially in a relationship. But in that absence, let's say. Let's say that honesty can come forward and you'll hear me mention now and again that truth can be a tool or it can be a weapon and we need to know how to discern between the two. But when we [00:03:00] talk about that core issue, we want to know that Sometimes, the truth can be so powerful it can rip things apart.
Right. Yeah. And we need to be able to discern when and where and how and what's appropriate, right? So that's what, that's kind of what we're going to talk about today.
Liz Herl: Yeah. And it's the unexpected pieces, like we go along in our relationships, different dynamics, work relationships or intimate partner, and you have this perception or idea that things are going fairly well.
you're having a pretty good time with one another. And then suddenly there's a reveal of truth and honesty that kind of bombshells the relationship, which is probably not the intentions, but the idea of saying, so there's something I want, you know, there's something I want to talk to you about, which no one cares for that engagement ever.
Tim Caldwell: That's a dear John.
Liz Herl: We need to talk. So there's apprehension around like we need to talk. I want to let you know that I have been I made a mistake or I have been [00:04:00] dishonest with you about my finances or, you know, it could be anything. Sure. It's, there is a sense of potential betrayal in that of saying, what was it?
We tend to then do this internalization. What was it now that brought this to, you. And, like, why are you just bringing this to me now? Was there something I wasn't providing you that gave you that.
Tim Caldwell: Mm hmm.
Liz Herl: You know, space to kind of reveal that to me. And now you're doing that. Now this might make me call into question everything.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah. We talked about this, there being a scale. And how these things have balance and where we find the balance, but in a sense what you're left with is are you strong enough to try to find the balance, to find the patience and understanding to get back towards the healing? This is a tough decision because that honesty can be so [00:05:00] brutally fragile that it could be ruined and those choices can be very hard.
So, We need to talk about, is it something that you can bear is your relationship strong enough to get through it? Or are you going to face the issue of, this is going to be the end of our relationship?
Liz Herl: Sure. Which brings us to the question, if you have to ask yourself, is honesty worth the pain it brings?
Mm hmm. And, because it might be painful and depending on whatever it is. So I was I wanted us to go over a couple little scenarios. Yeah, sure. Just to kind of give the viewers and listeners some, you know, thoughts around what we're thinking. Now, where I want to start here is that understanding Well, we'll just go right into the scenario.
Go ahead. So we just, I made up some characters, we're going to call them Sam and Kay. And the race, the reveal looks like this. Kay has been in a relationship with Sam for about three years now. He has always been someone she could trust. A few months ago, she, he told [00:06:00] her something that completely shook her.
He confessed that he had been seeing his former partner behind her back. Now, his statement for doing this was that he was feeling unsteady and lost in their relationship and needed closure and feedback from his former partner to gain clarity as to what went wrong in that relationship in an effort not to repeat history in theirs.
Tim Caldwell: Okay.
Liz Herl: Well, you can imagine that didn't sit very well with Kay. Right. Because she really felt like they had a relationship built on honesty. Now, Sam's defense is that, I'm coming to you now because you value honesty. So what do we do with that?
Tim Caldwell: Well, so let's, we're going to look at, we have to look at it from both sides.
And there's always two sides to everything. If I were to try in Sam's defense to say, Okay, now Sam is coming forward with this honesty. He's Now admitting to some wrongdoing. He has a [00:07:00] history of wrongdoing, and that's a history then of dishonesty. And this is where we talked before about the scales being balanced.
In my mind when I hear a scenario like that, Kay is now being faced with, she's got a million things in her mind. How long has this been going on? Why is it coming forward now? In Sam's mind, is this a way to get himself out of hot water? Is he just trying to survive for himself or is he trying to survive in the relationship?
But when Sam admits this, does he think that this one big truth will balance the scale of this historic untruth, right? Mm hmm. And I can tell you with almost complete certainty that in Kay's situation, no, this isn't going to be, and this is really, really damaging. And she'll have nothing but more and more questions surrounding, why am I hearing about this now?
How long has this been going on? Why am [00:08:00] I hearing about this? Why haven't you told me? Why? There's, there's, there's a thousand questions that will be going on. And now. Where what the questions K has to face is is this something I can come back from and is is there The opportunity to heal from this from Sam's point of view this may be A huge burden off of his back to come clean because he sees a light at the end of the tunnel, but on Kay's side, she's just entering a very dark tunnel.
Right. She's got nothing but problems. And she's got problems with Sam.
Liz Herl: Sure. And this kind of brings into My thoughts around the psychological concept known as the paradox of honesty, like
We basically perceive that we all desire to have honesty in our relationships, but how much is too much honesty and in one wrong moment can destroy everything that you have tried to protect.
Exactly. And. [00:09:00] How we navigate that and the aftermath is everything. Right. So this is an unintentionally opened up You know a can of worms for Kay and Sam.
Tim Caldwell: It has you know It's at this point maybe mature Sam is saying well, I'm being responsible and accountable for my actions but on Kay's side the female in this example, is where was all of this responsibility and accountability while you were being dishonest, right?
And we don't have to dig too far into this to see that the scales don't balance. And they're not going to balance until Space is provided in understanding, but that how it's said, what is said and how it's said, when it's delivered, that all matters.
Liz Herl: So that kind of draws us a little further away from the Sam and Kay scenario back to our words and the responsibility we have of them.
Tim Caldwell: Yes.
Liz Herl: So how we say things and how we deliver things is everything. Absolutely. Because. If we [00:10:00] have this mentality of I'm about to deliver a whole large amount of honesty to an individual that will alleviate me of discomfort and stress and anxiety with no
consideration of what this delivery is going to do to the other individual. That's where things can get really off course.
Tim Caldwell: Consideration, that's a good word. Yeah. Not beyond accountability and responsibility, but the consideration or lack of consideration is how we got in this predicament anyway.
So now Kay has to decide where do we go from here. Actually, this is a mutual decision where we go from this but in this scenario, and we'll just keep it black and white the scenario, this whole truth comes forward and now Kay has a bunch of questions. So we're back to the million dollar question of what is the truth?
What is the intent of this new truth? Is this to salvage and to save? Or [00:11:00] are we now just repositioning deck chairs on the Titanic? Is this relationship over? Can it survive this? Right. I think it's important that in this scenario that each have to come to the table with complete honesty to what is the outcome of what, what I'm about to tell you is what is the outcome of this?
Am I trying to save my relationship or am I just destroying it?
Liz Herl: Sure. Yeah. And I think the underlining issues that I want to address here is that we have unhealed selves and insecurities that are really deep. So within an individual and when Something triggers or, you know, activates within a person, their response comes on to whatever it may be.
And what I mean by that is Say in this situation that there, there seemed to be a lack of maybe acknowledgement between one another and Sam became activated by, I feel like we're, we're growing in our distance. Well, this [00:12:00] seems familiar to me and my former partner. And it's, it concerns me and I have
fears around the loss of this relationship. I have an idea. I'm gonna go ask them what happened, yeah. You know, and see if they can give me clarity because I'm actually trying to protect something I care about and if I can go and get more information. Yeah. And we're all, this is riddled with potholes on this package road.
It's complicated because the intentions, well, may, they may have been, is. What is happening is the individual's actions of what I always tend to do in situations like this,
Tim Caldwell: right?
Liz Herl: And Versus if I were to say now, I want to be honest
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: the honesty actually should have been right then and there I'm saying, you know, okay I feel like things are kind of off and I want to have an open honest conversation with you about that and it really concerns me
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: like that's a completely different addressing of a situation.
Yeah versus like [00:13:00] So I have something I want to tell you. I may have talked to my former partner about kind of what's been going on in our relationship. And, then it's like you did what? You know, such, there's such a violation and betrayal there because you're now, talking to them about our personal relationship and how that, you know, correlates to what you experience with them.
Tim Caldwell: Sure. The betrayal again, to read into this scenario, Sam thinks he's going to protect and maybe rightfully and innocently so, but he's gone to the wrong person. Obviously, because there's a sense of betrayal and infidelity. Just the fact that you reached out to someone you were intimately
aware of before, but the damage now is not just that you did it, but there's like maybe a history of this and this is where we have to read a little bit more into the history for K. Has this happened to her in the past? Is this a historic wound that she thought had healed up with somebody?
When somebody tears that [00:14:00] scar off of a very well healed injury, it's even worse. So, the dishonesty far outweighs the honesty at this point. And this is where Sam is in a real predicament. Now, the million dollar question, as I said before, is, are they going to work to heal?
Or is this something you won't come back from? And this is where the words that you choose, and how you speak, is going to be incredibly, let's say this scenario didn't happen, but it just kind of, came up. He didn't, Sam didn't come to admit this, but it came up in a conversation, or it was revealed by a third party or something like this.
Which is better, that it comes up organically through a third party, or Sam came forward? I'm not sure which, but the damage is the same. and there's a bit of betrayal.
Liz Herl: Well, I would say that the fact that Sam chose to be straightforward, true with Kay.
Tim Caldwell: He's been, and from a man's perspective, why [00:15:00] is he being, what's your motivation to be honest now?
Liz Herl: Well, that's what exactly Kay is going to wonder as well. And to correlate back to what we're talking about, that truth, when the truth breaks and heals us and how it challenges love is there seems to be sometimes the idea around can I love you after you revealed really honest information to me at the And how it affected me personally.
Well, I don't know if it's so much about how we love versus how we trust.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And how we, you know, move those two around each other.
Tim Caldwell: We, we talked before in a bit of discussion about unconditional love. Right. And I, I personally have expressed an opinion that other than God Almighty, I don't really know that humans have the ability to be honestly capable of unconditional love.
In my point of view, [00:16:00] I would say, persons who are very, very close to my family loved ones, I mean people I really love, let's say that they're my sons or daughters, they're literally my offspring. If they are people that I love very, very much, but that I find out In some way, shape, or form, or it's revealed that they are extremely cruel, that they've done unspeakable things to people.
And we're talking murder or just horrific deeds to people in society. And let's say they're incarcerated. Can I love those people unconditionally? I say no. I think the conditions behind the love it's changed. It's now, I'm in love with the person I thought they were, or who they were, but as this reveals itself, we're faced with truth, and truth is now what's honest, right?
This dishonesty outweighs the honesty. And it's a bit of a departure from Kay and Sam, but the whole point [00:17:00] is, are we strong enough to face that? You know, you'd hope that every relationship could, but not all will. Sometimes the hurt's too great, it's too long, maybe it's not even particularly the wound that you caused, but It's a historic wound that it's repetitive, and they can't recover from it.
Liz Herl: So, in furthering this conversation I want to look at what we are learning and what society is bringing to us right now. So I shared with you earlier that I believe that society provides a really great breeding ground of dishonesty. We have a lot of I would say technology correspondence through any type of messaging and of course, social media, that we have this shield to stand behind and of course people like to call some individuals keyboard warriors And that's not necessarily what I'm talking about here.
Even though individuals feel right the grandstanding is for them at that moment There's also freedom [00:18:00] of speech. So there's that but in this scenario or this case we're talking about in when society is giving us an opportunity to learn How to engage with one another how honest am I now again right now there's a lot of Feedback in a lot of different forms and podcasts around how important it is to be honest. Don't tell a lie And there's this big push and like I said it's really an interesting concept that people are pushing the idea of honesty and truth and Just as it as though maybe it might be a nuance when it is definitely not however well when I'm It's a great idea to be honest, right?
And that's not saying that you should be dishonest, but it's a lot of work. I want to talk about how individuals learn about honesty. So in situations when I learn I'm supposed to be honest, so when we go back to childhood here a little bit, you know, I'm going to share a, a funny story.
So when I [00:19:00] was gosh, I want to say I was like four or five, like I recall it because it's a traumatic memory, so that's how that works. And not like a horrible traumatic memory, but I had gone to the grocery store with my mother and we're on our way back home. We had lived out in the country and I'm just eating down, not, not, not that anyone knows what this is anymore.
You would because of your age, but certs. Do you remember Serts?
Tim Caldwell: I remember Serts, Liz. Yes. Yes.
Liz Herl: I was just chewing these Serts down like they were Tic Tacs.
Tim Caldwell: Mm hmm.
Liz Herl: And my mom was like, where did you get those? And I was like, the store. Hello. Where did you think I got them? And she said, I did not buy those.
And I was just like, okay. And she turned the car around and I had two more rolls in my, cause they were rolls. Oh, nice. Yeah, two more rolls in my hand. And she marches me back into the store and has me go up to the cashier and she's like, tell her what you did.
And I was just like, by then I'm crying and I'm just like, Yeah, sure. I'm sorry, I took your candy and I didn't pay for it. And she's like, oh, well, you really shouldn't do that. [00:20:00] And so I gave her back the candy and they were, of course, very kind about it, and I left in a lot in today's society, they would probably frown upon my mom's engagement of what she did there.
And I don't think there was anything wrong with it. I don't feel like I know I said in the beginning I was traumatized, but I learned a very hard lesson that I recall very, very clearly because I remember the emotions and the shame and all the stuff. But I remember honesty. You don't take things that are not yours and if you do or you've done something wrong, you make it right.
And that's where I learned. That was a great moment around being honest with your actions. Those were just one bit of the road paved for me in my understanding around honesty. Now, to be fair, my mom later said, you know, this is why this is important. We do not take things that are not ours, that we did not earn, we did not purchase.
I mean, it was a whole lesson on honesty and yes. We talk about this too. Was there shame in it? Yes, I felt ashamed of myself and everyone's like you [00:21:00] shouldn't really do that because now She's gonna have this core sense of shame in her around certs and actually I have none of that But I have an understanding around honesty, right?
Yeah, and So when I'm going back to what I'm saying earlier about Social media is that it sets up maybe a potential of a framework in yourself around how I engage. Like, it's okay to say this online. But when I'm standing in front of you, I don't, I couldn't be that honest. That's right. Right? I couldn't be that honest.
I could.
Tim Caldwell: That's the point. That's exactly where I would go. It's a sense of, this hyper connectivity gives us this sense of, anonymity too. even if you know who I am, you don't, you can't get to me. I'm on another continent or whatever, but the point behind that is social media. Let's say, let's dial this all the way back to MTV and the music life.
When these people started coming out in industry and they were players and gangsters and all this stuff They were fudging the law and they were living large. I always take it back to [00:22:00] government. Is that all of these things in government that are revealed about how people are so deceptive and how, how these people in power have misused funds and have, they've misdirected to benefit people in power and Their, their only defense is deny, deny, deny.
You prove me. Prove it wrong. Right? Because they're, they're, they're hedging around the law. Well, that's a deceptive, if it can happen at the top, it can happen everywhere. That's why it's so hard to walk that path. And in today's day and age, honestly, the community level of interpersonal communication is so poor anyway.
When it comes time to, let's say, enter into relationship with somebody you think is very specialty to them. I don't even know that they understand that that the words that they're choosing are tools and not weapons and they just, I don't care, I'll find someone else. Right. And, right, and we were wandering a little bit [00:23:00] off track but we're also trying to make people understand that in this scale that honesty can really hurt but the dishonesty almost can't be unweighed either.
It does more if not the same or more damage as the honesty and it's cruel cuts. And the longer it goes on and when it's revealed, I just don't know that you can balance those scales.
Liz Herl: In referencing our educational process of what honesty is and why I brought up my short story was the fact that, Learning about our learned experience and teaching us what honesty and dishonesty is.
And if you're not having an environment that provides you maybe with a healthy understanding of that. And in today's day and age, the reason why I go back to social media outlets or even text correspondence or emails when we're trying to communicate, I always share with all individuals that when you're wanting to have an honest conversation, the [00:24:00] last place you need to have that is through an email or a text conversation because of so many things that are lost in that translation.
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely. Yeah.
Liz Herl: And I was being honest when I text, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I didn't receive it that way.
Tim Caldwell: That's a crucial point. And the beauty between interpersonal communication in person is that they can see your affect. Right? They get to see your
Liz Herl: The impression.
Tim Caldwell: Your, they get to hear your voice. They can look in your eyes. They can see how you stand. Are you apologetic? Does it show all over you or are you just saying it to say it? You know, I feel like I have to tell you this. I feel better. That's not how it's supposed to work. It's supposed to heal.
Being honest, especially when something's, you're trying to repair something, it's supposed to be truthful, to heal, not, not damage.
Liz Herl: Right. And I'm saying, do we have the skill sets? Are we learning the knowledge on how to engage one another honestly in a healthy way from our upbringings to social norms, engagements, relationships, workplaces, everything that [00:25:00] is educating us on honesty and how we distribute that information to one another.
Yeah. And if we have all these safeguards in place on. Text messaging or emails or social media or wherever it is and not your interpersonal skill set. You are not properly armed to go into any relationship, whether it be again, intimate, vocational, whatever, with the appropriate Healthy nature of saying like this is where I want this to go.
Tim Caldwell: Sure.
Liz Herl: So going back to our scenario Yeah, Sam's experiences in his life he may not be armed with the right skill sets on what honesty looks like and decides to drop honesty bombs into the relationship and those craters that he's creating though well intended leave wounds that are massive that sometimes are unrecoverable
Tim Caldwell: truly could be unintended, right?
Liz Herl: and that is the [00:26:00] understanding around When people deliver information if we cannot live or hear it through compassionate ears and not judgmental ones Which we seem to tend to lean to now more these days that if we can listen compassionately as to what the other person is trying to share Do they have the, you know, does Kay have the insight to say, this is Sam's way of trying to be honest with me, though he has really harmed me in his honesty, right?
And how do we now navigate through this awareness? Because though this honesty is wounding, it could be actually really helpful. And I, I share that with individuals. When people say the truth hurts, it does. Sometimes it's the accountability of self and our responsibility and how we deliver our messages is where I'm going with this Is that do we have are we setting ourselves up that when we're delivering information around being a true self which would be [00:27:00] honest and When we give that out, are we willing to endure the consequences of what we're sharing?
Tim Caldwell: Right, right.
Liz Herl: That's tough
Tim Caldwell: It is tough the accountability and responsibility. So Tony Robbins has a phrase he's been speaking for 30 years. The level, the level and quality of our life is only as good as our communication. If the intent is to try to heal a little advice. I wouldn't just start throwing truth bombs.
I would say, I've done something wrong, this is what I did. And then discuss your way through that without saying, Yep, we slept together. I mean, if you cover every single detail, that doesn't help anything. Offering up only what needs to be offered to satisfy that person that needs to hear it. But remember that regardless of what the intent is, it's the space we provide the person who needs to hear this to heal.
If the intent [00:28:00] is to heal this relationship. All regard has to be given to the person that needs that time to take it in, make decisions, ask questions, pursue whatever answers seem to be met. But that's dictated by the person who's been wounded, or the victim, I would say, the wounded.
You can't expect people who've been injured. To tolerate somebody who's being short sighted and I said what I said and that's the truth and that's, it's just too damaging. As I said, these are really only advices towards someone who is trying to resolve and repair and heal.
If it's, if that's not mutually understood, which probably should be prefaced, I want to save this relationship. I feel I've made a huge mistake. And if there's no remorse, there's likely to be any recovery. Right. That's as basic as it can be.
Liz Herl: Right. And this, [00:29:00] now we're going into our language around honesty.
So when you say that, it's going back into how we deliver our information to one another.
Mm hmm.
Of, I know this is incredibly hurtful, what I've done. And, so accounting, right?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: Yeah. I'm not sure exactly how we're going to, maneuver or navigate our way through this but I would like to see if we can find a way to move forward Because you're important to me and this is important to me and my steps and my actions may have been the wrong ones, but they weren't malice ly intended towards you or I or our relationship and now I'm learning right?
So if you have that true intention of being honest, that's hard because as I Always let individuals reflect in when you hear information that is wounding to you you're immediately having some emotional reaction.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah
Liz Herl: And so the words therein may be very harsh and, and judgmental and quite wounding to [00:30:00] the other person and the relationship and are hard to kind of recover from.
Tim Caldwell: I would venture to say it's much like a, a screen has been dropped over you. And you're only going to hear specific words. Only specific words are making it through the, because that shield is up. Only specific words are going to get through there. And they're going to be the ones that amplify the pain that she's in, right?
Is, well, how long did this deception last? And why would you do this? And honesty may be lost until that screen is completely taken down.
Liz Herl: So what you're speaking to there is
Tim Caldwell: To hear it.
Liz Herl: Right. Is when honesty is maybe dispersed, internalization starts transpiring. That's right. So now I have to see where my failure points were in this process.
That's right. Whether it be a relationship, whether it be a job, whether it be, you know, a misunderstanding with a friend, I'm now internalizing like where my, my faulty pieces are here. And that angers me because I don't like that. And then I feel vulnerable and all of those other great feelings that people like to deflect away from.[00:31:00]
And being able to. That's why I'm saying, say, present of mind and in a critical realm of how do I want to move through this versus how I want to feel through this. This is something, you know, when we're talking about honesty that you can't avoid the F word, which is feelings, like we, that, that's the F word I'm talking about feelings that get involved in when we're having honest conversations and what happens to us.
When we get lost in an emotional feedback in our, you know, we're ruminating on some thoughts of what's being coming through as you're sharing here. Maybe we have a filter on now of I'm only hearing, you know, blame words or the you word, which is blame. And I'm not, I'm no longer actively listening to what you have to say to me or hearing you honestly.
I'm hearing you emotionally. And that really breaks down the whole [00:32:00] communication process right there.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And so, honest or not, you're gonna hit a barrier there that you're not gonna be able to penetrate.
Tim Caldwell: How do you think, what would you think is a better avenue to pursue? A carefully crafted written word, a letter?
Or do you think people are gonna have that skill in a spoken environment?
Liz Herl: On giving information?
Tim Caldwell: On giving information like that. If you were to drop, well, we're just going to stay specifically to this example, do you think Kay would have received it better in a letter?
Liz Herl: No. I think that this is where I was sharing how Sam was evolved from his little self into a man that whatever his experiences taught him about how I give away information or how I articulate and things of that nature. I collectively was like, here's my thoughts and I'm just gonna release 'em off onto you. Yeah. And hopefully they land okay.
And we're talking about individuals that have gone through some really great self work, [00:33:00] is what I'm gonna talk about here. If Sam were to have said, how do I have this conversation?
Because I immediately know this is gonna wound her.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm .
Liz Herl: I know this is going to be damaging and I'm dreading that.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm .
Liz Herl: What we often find is that individuals that get ready to kind of do their truth bomb, like they're, they're sitting on a Little Righteous Mintot Mountain because it's like, But now I'm doing the right thing.
And here's where I'm going to tell them, this is why I did it, see I wanted to only improve our relationship. Justifying. Right. I'm going to go into my justification. And we get lost in what is happening to the other person and what's actually happening to the relationship itself. So had Sam shared I have something, you know, that I want to discuss with you, and it's really difficult because I know it's going to hurt you.
Don't sugarcoat it. I know it's gonna wound you or however you want to phrase that, and to be honest, I should have come to you prior to what I've done, and we're gonna have to kind of figure our way through this. [00:34:00] And the fact that I've been uncertain about what's been going on in our relationship and I feel like for, there's been, gaps of distance growing in it, inflamed all sorts of insecurities in me.
And my mechanism is I go to, okay, let me go to the roster of things that I can check off of like maybe do some self analysis as how to correct the path here. Versus go to you honestly and say, I'm worried, I'm scared. That I'm drifting away from you and how do we resolve this and have you on board with me and work through that?
I'll solo it right so I'll go back. I'll go back to the history books I'll check in with my old partner and say hey Do you know what happened why we started drifting apart and all things and then when I come to you and say see I did My homework I did a good job Because I'm trying to make this better.
Yeah, that all falls flat.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: because the reality of it is the healthy,
Tim Caldwell: even in the best of intentions,
Liz Herl: the self reflection of Sam having, even in that moment of, [00:35:00] you know, as I recall, and I, I sit here, I know I have, we're going to have some big hills we're going to have to overcome here. And I have to own that, I have to own that, but this is where I think self compassion and grace come in, depending on the partnership of, and the honesty of the partnership.
I'm going to be very clear here, if this person is engaging in this type of I would say communication and following through these, Pitfalls and saying but look I'm being honest now that whole like ricochet effect. Okay, there's there's a huge issue there but if this is someone that's coming truly honest to you and saying so here's what's gone on and this is seriously a one off That's maybe something worth looking into and having some compassion around and saying you're right as K like this is really wrecking me and you've hurt me really bad.
Yeah, and now I don't know if I can trust you and all I can have in my mind [00:36:00] right now I'm reeling in What does she have that I don't have what is it that she gave you is she giving like all these comparisons? Which is why I say people go right into internalization like it's I'm the defect. I'm the fault and versus saying Okay, clearly we have been missing each other on some sort of wavelength, and we've got to figure out what that is.
Yeah. And not internalizing, which is incredibly hard if you haven't done a lot of individual work.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Yeah. I get it. And I understand that you're using some clinical terminology about how people learn how to not just structure, but how they intake and process, it's valuable.
I think this is a really good example and the message we're trying to deliver here is. That dishonesty can be a brutal, brutal lesson at times. It can be amazingly healing, but for that to transpire, there has to be a window of healing and approaching this [00:37:00] appropriately in the right context with the use of language and to, if at all possible, preface yourself in that healing manner that, I've made a mistake. I've made a big mistake and I know that I've harmed you and I'm going to do all that I can to repair this, but I need you to know that I did this and I realize it's a mistake to do it. And I'm coming to you now because I realize that it's a mistake.
That's a very important thing. The opposite side to the very same message is ending anything you have to say with, whew, I feel better, meaning I just shifted all of my guilt off of my shoulders, and now you deal with it which is antithetical to anything that's productive.
Liz Herl: Right, and without a doubt in this scenario, Sammi, I felt alleviation in saying, whew, no, I don't have to worry about like that. If for some reason, she were to discover that I was talking to this person. She's not going to be [00:38:00] quiet when you're talking to her is a complete selfish mentality because you're not considering the other individual and how you've harmed not only that individual, but the relationship itself.
And I have a, pet peeve, I guess I would say, around identifying honest and dishonest individuals. Are when you are an apology, copier. What I mean by that is like you're copying apologies onto everything that you interacted with, with an individual. Oh, I'm sorry for that. Oh, I'm sorry for that.
Oh, I'm sorry for this. And the understanding of an apology of one's behavior is Ideally, healthiest self analysis of, I know this action and behavior was harmful to this individual and I am sorry I hurt you. And I'm going to do and work on in an effort of identifying why it is that I respond this way in circumstances so I don't continue this action over and over again.
Versus, oh, I'm sorry, I know you always hate it when I call you that, [00:39:00] or I know you don't like it when I do that, and then, oh, I'm sorry, you know, you know, all my little annoyances. If you know I don't like you doing something and you've apologized for doing it and stated you won't do it again, but consistently do it, well, then you're just a liar.
Tim Caldwell: That's true.
Liz Herl: Like, you're not, so there's some dishonesty for you.
Tim Caldwell: It's absolutely true. Well, we're hoping that, the terms and the conditions for it healing people, that those things are mutual. And that we hope that people understand that there's great, there's great weight to honesty, but there's great damage.
What's the old Stan Lee with great power comes great responsibility. If you're planning to start using truth in your dialogue with the people, your friends or family or even loved ones, know full well that what you say, it has weight, and tact. Has meaning. Yeah, tact is going to be very much the word of the day.
The other is why do people not tell the truth? Typically people just want to avoid [00:40:00] confrontation. They swallow it and swallow it and swallow it and one day something comes out and even though they may be justified in dropping a truth bomb or so to maybe level the field it's still incredibly harmful and you really don't want to get there.
The idea I think for that to be, to address people who are narcissistic, or people who are pathologic liars, you need to call them on their BS immediately. And that's not true. You know, what you said isn't true. Or that's a, it's a gigantic fabrication or exaggeration. Or whatever. And what are your sources?
Helping, helping knock people off of that ivory tower they think they put them on will completely Take away their power to be dishonest in the future, right? And you're doing not only doing yourself and people around you a service, but you're probably doing them a service too because that stuff don't fly Every time there's dishonesty, it's gonna catch you. That's [00:41:00] that's a Peterson
Liz Herl: Absolutely.
Tim Caldwell: Your dishonesty will get you.
Liz Herl: Yeah. 100 percent of the time.
Yeah. We also have a societal norm right now and we can say and do whatever we like and There's no consequence to that, right?
And there should be an understanding you're absolutely responsible for the words that you say.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, right
Liz Herl: And the delivery and how you give them Yeah, and you know when we're doing that there's you know, I can say and do whatever I'd like perhaps but there's going to be a cost to that and when you get feedback from others that is not favorable or Something that feels, you know, well just outright attacking towards you and there's this offense that comes into play.
Well, there's a little bit of accountability there of like, well, what was it exactly that transpired that maybe led to these events? You know, versus I can say whatever I want and everyone needs to affirm that. And whether it be truth or not, .
Tim Caldwell: I'm not gonna go [00:42:00] too deep into that because the world is a bit crazy right now.
It's a bit crazy and the honesty, dishonesty thing about what we do in social environments is that it's a swamp these days. But it would be nice if we could turn the corner, maybe turn the clock back a little bit where we can look each other in the eye and say, you know, I think I said something or did something that might affect our relationship and I'd like to clear that up right now.
If we nip it in the bud, if we get it before it turns, if we attack it while it's a molehill and not a mountain the likelihood of damage being done is minimalized and the likelihood of full recovery is greatly enhanced. So, when you perpetuate lies. And you think you can wipe it all out with a little honesty, and it doesn't really happen.
It just doesn't happen. And I hope everybody learns from just a conversation like this, is that our young people could really take a dose of a little grandma and grandpa wisdom, and that is, you know, tell the, tell the [00:43:00] truth. At your very least, as Peterson says, try not to lie. Right?
Liz Herl: Absolutely. And just for a short minute, I want to kind of turn into that honesty piece of like when we're talking about being honest, and we don't really know where How that comes all together as an individual and we didn't have maybe role models or in Information provided to us around what healthy?
Honesty looks like yeah, it's like well when I listen to you today. I think Well, you're saying to be honest, and if we were to do a self inventory, I think I'm pretty honest. I mean, I do this and I do that when I'm engaging with people, but how much of it do I feel that I'm responsible for, or do I have a flip it mentality of like, well, I'm honest.
I told him exactly what I thought. Well, there's that consideration I'm talking about. And how individuals go about looking into how you, I share with people, how are you received by others?
Tim Caldwell: Mm hmm.
Liz Herl: How we give our information [00:44:00] articulate to one another is going to make a big impression upon that now you represent your best self to any individual at any time in your life, whether it be, professional or personal But you're true to who you are You're honest with who you are and they may or may not receive that well, but at the end of the day you're honest to who you are and that's a hard standalone island to be on
Tim Caldwell: Yeah,
Liz Herl: And to acquire that a lot of the time people do have to seek some individual, you know Yeah psychotherapy to kind of discover who that person is Yeah.
So who I'm talking about today, you may not know who that is.
Tim Caldwell: That's right. It could, it's a tough road. It's, what's the saying, I'd rather be disliked for my honesty than liked for my falsehoods. That's true. It can be a lonely road sometimes, but we can try to minimize the impact we have with other people.
I'm carefully choosing your words and try to do it early. As soon as a mistake is made, I say, get in front of it. I come from a world, a military world [00:45:00] where. You try to take care of incidents at its lowest possible level. But you also try to get in front of a problem right away. If you know that you've caused a problem, or that something isn't as it should be, get in front of it and tell the truth.
A lot of times people just go, Okay, we'll figure it out. And, and they do. But if you wait, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, now we got a problem. Now we got hurt feelings, and we have time, money, and effort into all of this stuff, and it's wrong. Something's wrong. We gotta fix it. So, it's just a practical example.
Liz Herl: Sure, the way I see it is that society and our lives and individuals and all of us is, we're operating in masquerades all the time. And how exhausting that gets after a while, after your, you know, fourth or fifth mask drops off. And generally this definitely happens in relationships that you go in with all your best attributes beaming and all those best traits out there.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And That showman mentality that you have, [00:46:00] whether you be a male or a female. Gets a little tiring after all because those real parts of you start showing up and the honest Parts of you start to become revealing and it's like actually this is you know Who I am and this is kind of what I like and then there's those truth bombs that start coming out that become really problematic So how to navigate through all of that?
That's kind of one of the things we wanted to provide some insight around. So that's my, two cents around this is, do you have the skill set to engage honestly? If you don't, that's not a negative. That's a journey and that's, an introspective, reveal of self.
Do I need to look in and discover what this is? And do I feel like I do pretty well? Am I received really well by others? Within reason and yeah, do I want to work on that? And if so, then you know, what does that look like? There's tons of great information out there or there's just the simple fact that I have to do an [00:47:00] inventory of self and do I continue unintentionally to masquerade around because the reveal of honesty is too Heavy of a burden to share because what if I'm not accepted or what if I'm rejected or whatever it is?
So there's a lot of things to consider here. The fact is that both have a cost honesty and dishonesty.
Tim Caldwell: That's absolutely true that there's and there is no perfect balance. It will always ebb and flow. And because of that, you have to stay on top of it, right? And things can snowball right away. You didn't get on top of that thing while it's small.
You know, Liz and conversations that we've had before, I make sure that I just say, you know, I said something before, did you take that right? And we'll make them, I want to make sure that that landed right. There, there is always I think the aspect that if you're going to approach people with truth, it has to be hand in hand with compassion and empathy.
You have to be, okay, if I tell her this, what can I, what could I expect? Now, you may open a huge can of worms that even you [00:48:00] didn't know existed in her life. But, when you choose to make this decision, if, if it's truly in love, you need to preface yourself. I'm not sure how you'll take this, but I need you to know that I've made a big mistake.
I really feel bad about it. And then, offer details only to what needs to be told until, and then discuss it out. Just comb out those things that need to be told. But do it with as much compassion and empathy for the, for the wounded as you possibly can.
Liz Herl: So, accountability, authenticity. And direction is what I hear when you say that.
I'm going to account for what I did and I'm going to be responsible for it. And I'm going to engage as honest as I can and hope that we can find a way through this. Are those skill sets that individuals are really, sharpened or aware of? And if not, they're definitely something that people need to probably take a look at honing [00:49:00] in on a little bit more.
Tim Caldwell: Sure. The right time, the right place, the right words, the right way.
Liz Herl: Well they're, yeah, right. And I don't want to draw too much on perfectionism, but there is a real, understanding of yourself. That's where this is kind of going is understanding yourself well enough to say and if I unintentionally back myself into a corner with my own words.
How do I you know, renavigate, you know I would say navigate and get myself back out where they're able to hear. Yeah. Sure. Yeah Yeah, I think it was it was really wonderful. I hope that everyone understands that honesty is incredibly important. It is Walking around with you know, a burden of, you know, mask or, you know, a chest full of all this stuff that you're trying to just shoulder for someone else to their benefit and the stress and anxiety that that causes is definitely not worth it.
Tim Caldwell: You know, while you touch on that is that, you know, there's a saying that you don't have to remember [00:50:00] anything when you tell the truth. It's the truth. That's exactly right. The other is if your entire success and what you try to accomplish in your life is fake it till you make it and be this imposter, what a burden you bear.
It's okay to, I've landed really good jobs by simply saying, I don't know what you do, but if you show me, I'll do that. That's honest. And that's the reason they hired me was. I can do that. I can do that. And only to find out you can't do that. You're not skilled at that. But if you show me, I'll do it.
Those are just some physical, tactical things that need to be done. But in a relationship, preface yourself. When you don't know how that message is going to be received, just preface yourself. I'm not sure how you'll take this, but I hope you understand that I'm telling you this out of love and compassion and I don't, I want to try to fix what I think I've messed up and here's what I've done.
Sure. And then, ears are open, ears are on then, right? Right. More than they were if you were just to drop a bomb on them. Correct. Right.
Liz Herl: Well, thank you, [00:51:00] everyone, for listening in. And please take care of yourselves. That's what you always say, actually.
Tim Caldwell: That's right. Take care of yourselves.
Liz Herl: And I always say practice some good self compassion and consideration. No one is perfect. No one expects you to be. Until next time.
Tim Caldwell: Like. Share. Pass it on.
Liz Herl: Yeah. Do the thing.
Tim Caldwell: We're getting better at this. And it's very much a learning thing. But. I think we enjoy what we do and you know, we have a whole line of topics we're going to talk to you folks about, and we hope you guys get something from this.
It's fun doing it. Thanks guys. Thanks. Bye bye.