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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I've got Susie Latchford from
Heal With Horses in Canada.
She's out on Lake Ontario.
In a peninsula.
It's a wine growing area.
Sounds divine, and it is divine.
About two and a half
hours east of Toronto.
However, Canada has this
thing called a winter.
And having lived in Canada myself, I'm
always astonished when people are doing
the kind of work that we do there because
it could be really tiring and tough.
And I first visited Heal With Horses,
I think, oh, almost like 15 years ago,
and when it was still quite new and it's
been growing and growing and growing
and I sort of watched these things from
afar in awe watching as people do this
amazing work, but often in conditions
that are really quite challenging.
So I've got Susie on the show to talk
to us about how she does what she does.
And hopefully we can learn how
to maybe all be a little bit.
Tougher or maybe more grateful
for the slightly more temperate
climates that we're working in when
we catch ourselves complaining.
So Susie, welcome to the show.
Can you tell us a little bit about
Heal With Horses and what you do?
What's your approach and
what you got started?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, that,
that's a loaded question.
Mm-hmm.
So he, with horses came about
with absolutely no plan really.
I read a couple of books one including
The Horse Boy, which actually
led me to Rupert in, in Ileana.
So in that I'm the type of person that
will go, Hmm, how do I learn that?
I really it's really inspiring me
to have read that book and, and then
looked, you know, researched a little
bit more and how do I learn that?
So I just am the type of person that
will reach out and, and see what,
what can birth from that, I guess.
Yeah.
And lo and behold yourself
and Ilena came and trained a
bunch of us here at the farm.
At that point, it, yes, it was very new.
We did have a couple of structures
to be under during that, during that.
But that's that's how I started.
And before that, a certification called
Feel, which is more like emotional
reflective work with horses non ridden.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And with that first certification,
I felt, I didn't feel it
was as useful for children.
I, I guess you could say.
Mm.
And whereas the Horse Boy Method
specifically, you know, was working
more with, with younger, younger people.
And I'm the type of person as well.
Like I have a culinary background,
so everything's a recipe to me.
So I That's interesting.
Yeah.
That, that's my analogy in life is, is
recipes and taking, you know, a little
bit of this and a little bit of that
and, and then all of a sudden you have a,
hopefully a really good recipe at the end.
And so Horse Boy is, is one of the,
the main ingredients at our farm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's
interesting that you say that.
I'm always encouraging people
to do more than Horse Boy.
As you may know, we actually
have three programs now.
We have Horse Boy Method Movement
Method, which is no horses
How to do the stuff at home.
Yeah.
Or in schools.
And then we also have something
called Takin Now, which is
how to train the horses in the
classical system from the ground.
All the in-hand work long
reigning and lunging.
And this is done with, you know,
adult artists people with trauma,
veterans first responders.
And that came out of necessity because we
were battling for time to actually train
and maintain and condition our horses.
And then I was rather, oh gosh,
actually it's the, it's our clients.
They could be the horse trainers and it,
they turned out to be really good at it.
But I always, I'm always encouraging
people to not just do what we do.
And this is something which I find
perplexing about the therapeutic or
equine assisted world is that we all
know that in any professional capacity
you want to have as many strings
to your bow as you possibly can.
Right.
As many arrows in your quiver,
because you just never know the
context of the particular person
who's gonna walk through your door.
But so often one finds it's like, no,
I only do this, you know, and I die on
this hill, you know, of this philosophy.
And it's like, well, right.
But it presumably, if we are asking.
People to make changes like a, an
autistic child to speak, or somebody to
go through some transformation process.
If we are not doing that ourselves, if
we are like rigid in a belief system, how
are we going to, what tools have we got
really to help somebody else go through?
We're not really leading
from the front, are we?
So I'm, I'm always very encouraged
actually, when people say,
I don't just do horse boy.
I do like three or four other things.
'cause that to me is
totally sane, you know?
So you, you've now grown from these small
beginnings into quite a big operation.
You've got a, you've got an indoor space.
You, you have 27 horses you told me, and
a hundred animals, social animals, you
know, 'cause you, as, as you say, you
never know what someone's gonna get into.
And social animals of all kinds,
you know, bring out communication.
But we're here, I'm, I'm
interviewing you from Spain.
We're in November, heading to December.
And you know, I, I would warrant that
the weather is rather different here
where I am to where it is with you.
How do you guys up there in Canada deal
with the extreme weather conditions?
'cause, you know, even if you've got a
covered space, you know, PE sometimes
it can be hard to drive people to get to
you in blizzards and that sort of thing.
How, how do you make
that whole thing work?
Suzie Latchford: It, it's
definitely challenging.
Like we kind of, our doors stay open in
the winter and we do keep scheduling.
But we have to be very what's
the word I'm looking for?
We have to communicate with our, our
participants or clients very openly
and be on the same page as far as
like if it's totally ugly out mm-hmm.
And dangerous to try and get here,
or the horses are just not able to,
you know, be themselves and mm-hmm.
Weather circumstances, then we have
to, we have to reschedule and ca
cancel and, and then that also has you
know, financial repercussions as well
because winter is already tough enough.
Mm-hmm.
But I guess, you know, being in our
15th year now w we've learned that we
have to be as busy as we can in the
spring and summer and, and shoulder
seasons to prepare for the winter.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I mean, how do you deal with it?
'cause you know how particularly
with autism, people can get very
latched onto and, you know, obsessive
with the things that they like.
And I, I know I've been out to your
place admittedly a long time ago, but
it was delightful and I could see how.
An autistic child or person
could really rely upon that for
the high point of their week.
So when you're dealing with that kind
of extreme focus, do you find that the
kids and adults that you're working
with are, are actually pretty adaptable?
Does, does the, does growing up in Canada
actually make people weirdly a bit more
adaptable because you, you just kind of
have to roll with the seasons or mm-hmm.
Is it actually quite a problem?
Suzie Latchford: I think there's a scaling
down that kind of happens from the summer.
Like we know, like with families and,
and some families might even be bringing
their, their child twice a week Mm.
Times.
When it, when the weather is good.
But I'm telling you too though,
but in the summer there's heat
problems that we have to deal with.
Ah, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That's in
Canada also gets really hot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bad.
Suzie Latchford: So it's like you're
eure almost all the way around.
But we, but we make, do we, we try
to do things earlier in the day.
Mm-hmm.
But again, communication,
communication with our families
and and the scaling down like.
As school approaches in September,
everybody's schedule changes.
And so there's already that little
bit of interruption that I know is
challenging for the parents of, of kids
on the spectrum that have to get out of
their summer routine and then get back
into a school routine and then, you
know, and then the going into the winter
and having that interrupted even more.
So I guess, I guess what I'm saying
is it's not like an abrupt stop.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And there's, it makes Go ahead.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Suzie Latchford: Bit more leading,
leading into, and I didn't even realize
that until you asked that question, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I find
it intriguing because, you know, we
actually deal with this in the opposite
way in Texas, where, you know, the
extreme heat through several months
of the summer would really limit like
the hours you could do things and
that it was even safe to do things.
And we had to really think around this.
But one of the things I, I find
is that if one is following nature
weirdly, the children, particularly
the really obsessive, slightly rigid
autistic children, I find that they
follow it more easily when it's nature
than when it's a sort, it appears as
an arbitrary thing that even when.
Cognitively,
there might be some challenges in
understanding, well, why can't I go today?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
There's
Rupert Isaacson: something so
uncompromising about a heat wave or
a blizzard that, you know, and maybe
that's an intrinsic structure of the work
that we do that we don't really value.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I think we take it for granted, but it
sort of actually do, do you not feel it
aids that flexibility in the human being?
Because so many people live sort of
divorced from nature, including in Canada.
You know, you can be inside, or in Texas,
you can be in the air conditioning.
But as soon as you actually have to go
out, you do have to follow that pattern.
And perhaps by the time someone's
been with you for a while,
they're actually in that pattern.
And neurologically they're adapting
simply because of the environment.
Would you, what are your thoughts on that?
Suzie Latchford: Oh, I would
agree a hundred percent.
And it's so,
yeah, we have to be that way.
Yeah.
With the, at least, I mean, on the
farm here, like we live, eat, and
breathe, like we walk out our back
door and we're immersed in our animals.
Mm-hmm.
Like there's 50 chickens or turkeys
running at you, and, and then you go out
and open another gate, and then you're
in the general population as we, as we
call it, with the goats and the mm-hmm.
And the pigs and the mini
horses and but yeah, I, I would,
I would definitely agree.
Yeah.
That just ingrained perhaps and, and with
the more structured autistic people Yeah.
They, and they don't necessarily
wanna be out in it either.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's so interesting, I think
that one of the great ills of our modern
life is that one can set up sort of
unreasonable expectations about life.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which then effectively
mean that one can never deal with
flex, the flexibility needed.
You know, so disappointments are crushing,
you know, rather than, well, you know,
it's snowing out or it's just too hot.
Yeah, sure.
But that faith that, well, the weather
will change and I'll be able to go back
again and until just sort of looking at
this through the Canadian lens just now
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It hadn't occurred to
me actually that so much of the work
that we all do, 'cause it's also nature
based and outdoor based, is probably
getting more flexibility and life
skills into people than we realize.
You know, you really
Suzie Latchford: about it that way.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: in our preamble.
Before we sort of switched on the
record button here you were talking
really quite eloquently, I thought
about your follow the child principle.
Mm-hmm.
And the idea of structures, this
sort of is leads in from this nature
idea that your structures need to
be somewhat invisible, but at the
same time very sound and, you know,
nature imposes structures, right.
That are exactly like that.
But talk to us about that.
How, how do you implement your follow
the child strategy and how do you
make sure that you are structured
without it seeming oppressively?
So,
Suzie Latchford: For me it's,
I think being around horses so much
has taught me to be more, to feel
more because that's what they do when,
when they're reacting to something.
It's, it's a feeling that they're getting.
And then and, and when people come here,
it, each person's different.
And so I've learned to gauge how
to, and to change my approach with
each person depending on what.
What their body language
is saying in a, in a sense.
Which is also how horses live
through body language, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so
I just allow that to, I guess it's
being empathetic or, or compassionate
or, or but that gives me a sense of
how to lead the session from there.
So we'll have so and so come a little
girl who's on the spectrum and she's
fun in, in, in quirky, but she also has
things that she has to have with her.
And so for, for instance, it's a,
it's a little, she brings her her
bicycle helmet and it has spikes
on the top and it's pink and cute.
And, and, but one day she wanted to be
a unicorn and, you know, we might've,
I think we had a horse in already,
but she wanted to ride the mini horse.
So we got mini horse
in and put the unicorn.
We have a little unicorn costume
or whatever that you can put
on there, halters and stuff.
Of course you did.
And, and so away what she had her unicorn
helmet on and all of her stuff, and you
know, Lily had her unicorn helmet on.
They went, you know, down the driveway
and then came back and that was enough.
And then she was onto the turkeys.
So.
We go play with the turkeys and
then, you know, and then she
might wanna do something else.
And so we just, and, and we're
just elaborating on, you know,
her intelligence and what she
has to share and her questions.
And, and it's really quite fascinating
the whole, the whole process.
So
Rupert Isaacson: where do you do,
do you sometimes encounter people
who, this certainly happened to us
in the early years when we were,
you know, always following the child
because as you say, we wanted them
to sort of develop this voice mm-hmm.
Where particularly people who are
struggling to communicate, you know,
they're being so directed all the time
that they kind of lose the motivation to
communicate and communicating becomes,
you know, a schlep an effort that they
maybe don't want to do because they're
not being listened to anyway, you know.
And so we often found that spending
that time at the beginning,
particularly sometimes, you know, a
couple of months just building that
relationship where they really knew
that we would listen to whatever they.
Brought to us even if it was negative,
like, I don't want to do this, or
I wanna get down from the horse.
I don't wanna get on the horse side.
Yes.
Thank you.
Please tell me what else you don't
want to do, because, you know, we
are, we are after communication here,
we don't care whether it's a yes or
a no, but from our point of view,
from our side, it has to be Yes.
Because we don't wanna be
shutting down communication.
But, you know, we would sometimes
get challenged by, or, you know,
criticized for saying, well, you
guys have no structure, you know,
it's just like so open and so loose.
How are these kids gonna, you
know, develop without you imposing
some kind of obvious structure?
And obviously we had our answers to that,
but I'm intrigued to know what yours
are because I know that you are also
really following the child in this way.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, I, I feel it's
learning from the child and, and mm-hmm.
If you're, if you're wanting to remain in
a structured type session, then you're not
in the, the first time or second time they
come, you're gonna lose that, that trust
and that if you can't get out of your
own way on how you feel that structure
should be, or that session should be run.
Mm-hmm.
So you get out on those first
few sessions of building that
communication and building that trust.
And then maybe they'll, you know, they'll
never get confident enough to get on
the horse if that's what the goal is.
And another thing is still having
the parents feel like their, their
kid isn't getting anything out of
it unless they're on that horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But,
Suzie Latchford: you know,
there's always, there's
Rupert Isaacson: always,
do you run into that?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: What, how do you,
how do you cope with it when you do?
Suzie Latchford: Well, we just assure
the parents that, you know, that there's
reasons for why we're doing it this way,
which is basically what I just said.
And that's building that communication
and trust as with that person so
that they don't say no automatically.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find
that most parents actually
do accept the logic of that?
Or do you sometimes get pushback?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah,
sometimes we get pushback.
Mm, for sure.
Rupert Isaacson: What's your sort
of second phase of explanation?
Like, you know, 'cause I say you, you,
you could put it in that way that you
just put it to me and that obviously to
me makes a lot of sense, but as you know,
sometimes it doesn't to, if you have to
go a bit deeper, what do you tell them?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And, and.
I guess also, like I should mention
this is that before, like, let's,
let's say, we'll give you an example.
We haven't met the family yet.
Somebody, a parent has just called and,
or emailed and said, you know, we're
interested in trying this for a child.
They're this age and just
got diagnosed as being on the
spectrum and blah, blah, blah.
So we invite them to come
for a free meet and greet.
So that, you know, the, the child comes
and the parents come and they get a
good idea of the environment and our
philosophy as well, and, and sort of
preparing them for some of those things
that could happen before they happen
definitely makes it a bit smoother.
Rupert Isaacson: That
makes a lot of sense.
Mm-hmm.
We, we, we used to sort of, what I've
found is I generally now with the last
few years, say to a parent or caregiver
or, you know, here is the neuroscience
about why we have this approach.
And I'll even like have the
diagram up on the, on the wall.
So like, you know, that's
the, your cortisol problem.
Mm-hmm.
And this overstimulated
nervous system problem.
Over here, we're gonna create this
oxytocin and, you know, this BDNF,
this brain derived neurotrophic
factor for the neuroplasticity
and this is how we're gonna do it.
But if we.
Threaten the child
effectively with constraints.
We're just gonna get more cortisol,
so we won't get that communication.
Are you down?
And then they'll normally say,
oh yeah, but then what I'll say
is Right, but you'll forget that.
So, when and, and we are not guaranteeing
that we're putting your kid on a horse
because if the kid does not want to,
we're certainly not gonna do that,
which is, as you say, why you have all
those amazing other animals as well.
So usually what I do is I actually say to
them, I'm gonna want you after 12 weeks
to do a movement method course on, you
know, even just online or a short one
with me, so that you do really understand
what we're doing and you can take it home.
And then if they say, well, we haven't
got time, I'll say, okay, I'll extend
it by another six weeks or eight weeks.
And then if the answer is still no, then
I'll say, Hey, listen, maybe I need to
make this place available to a family
that will go the extra mile at home.
Because yeah, as good as we
are, we won't get the job done.
The only thing that will get
the job done is if you actually
do this at home, kind of 24 7.
Do you, do you have a way of
sort of bridging that gap?
Because I feel a lot of
listeners and viewers.
Facing this issue, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And often it's a credibility issue
'cause we all have imposter syndrome.
Right.
You know, and there's, we've
all had people say, well,
you're just playing with ponies.
And I'm like, well, actually we are.
But you know, there is this really
good neurological reason why it
works, but there's nothing actually
wrong with, with pleasure and joy.
Right.
So, yeah, you're obviously very
experienced now and you can hold
your ground, but, you know, let's
say you've got a young, young
employee, she's not, you know, as
confident as you perhaps or something.
How do you, how do you help
everyone to understand what the
true nature of structure really is?
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: that's a good question.
Our our manager right now is
finishing her master's in counseling
and, and psychology, or she's
gonna be a psychotherapist.
And when she's, she came to us as a
placement student when she was doing her
undergrad in behavioral, what was it?
Behavioral psychology.
Anyways she tends to be very list oriented
and very, you know, structured And and so
we we've, Liv has become less structured
now, I guess within, within the, the
sessions and her facilitation skills.
So, where am I going with this?
Rupert Isaacson: The it, yeah.
You have to put your own staff
through the learning curve too.
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: yeah, yeah.
So she, she can be that way outside
of sessions until the session comes
and then she has to kind of, okay.
Start following the lead of the, of the,
Rupert Isaacson: sounds like
she's more of a client than,
Suzie Latchford: than an
Rupert Isaacson: employee
Suzie Latchford: doing very well now.
And so it can be learned, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: It can be learned.
It's not black and white.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
I mean, and to be honest, I think in the
early years I probably would've tried
to be more black and white in that way.
But by the time Horse Boy Method sort
of became a thing, I'd already had
my ass handed to me so massively by
my son, you know, with every time
I tried to, you know, impose that
kind of authoritative thing that I
realized, yeah, this, this is futile.
But in fact, it's, it's not just futile.
It's, it's damaging and
wrong and against happiness.
And when I looked at my own childhood,
I was like, yeah, I, I wasn't, I
think this is why it's so hard for
people to learn, follow the C child
as none of us grew up that way.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
We all grew up very directed
and told what to do.
How's that affected?
You know, when I first met you, you.
Had these very young children who
are suddenly now not so young.
No.
How has that affected your
own parenting, would you say?
Suzie Latchford: Oh
I've, I've always been a very flowy, not,
I hate trying to put things in a box.
It's been, it's a lifelong of
mine and, which has been hard.
Well, with my parenting skills,
Ron and I are both very on the same
page as far as raising our kids.
And you know, we may get criticized
for, for being too open or too easy,
or not having enough structure,
but our kids are all still here.
Well, that's, that's to my mind,
we're like, well, that's okay.
We'll just, you know, build something
onto the house and everybody can stay
here, be a community and blah, blah, blah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Suzie Latchford: I have that naturally.
I, I feel
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
I, I think you're right.
I think you and Ron both do.
'cause Ron, you know, I know your
husband and he's also one of these.
Very flexible lateral thinkers.
But at the same time, you know, you
guys do have a lot of structure.
Like, you know, Ron is a construction guy.
Yeah.
You can't build a house without structure.
Exactly.
You can't run a farm without structure.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you can't
keep livestock without structure.
And I, so I often think people who
don't come from those backgrounds
misunderstand what structure means.
Right.
They often think it means
constraints, but actually structure.
I always feel structures like,
like I'm looking at you now,
and what I see is Susie, right?
Mm-hmm.
But actually there's a structure to Susie.
There's this skeleton that's inside you.
There's this nervous system,
which is very structured.
There's this, you know, pulmon
system, there's all these structures.
But when I look at you, I'm
not really aware of that.
Right.
I'm just more aware of the
personality, the aesthetic, the person.
Or if I look at a tree, I'm not looking
at the transpiration of that, what's going
up and down from the roots to the leaves.
I see tree, but of course there is
structure and I always feel that that's
where people get structure wrong.
That they try to make it visible
when it should be invisible.
And I, I feel that like if you're
living the kind of life that you are
leading, you know, on a farm like
that, the structures are so inherent.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know what I mean?
They
Suzie Latchford: absolutely.
And it's not nine to five.
See, and I've struggled, you
know, over the years with.
Like, I don't have a nine to five job.
And, and so some, but we've grown
up in a society that says your day
is supposed to be nine to five, and
you're working from this time to that
time, and then on those times that
you're not working, you're supposed to
be doing this, this, this, and this.
Yeah.
So that's, you know, as I said,
coming out of a big, big burnout,
like those aspects of feeling guilty
for, you know, not having the same
structure that other families have
and our house looks like a barn most
Rupert Isaacson: of the
time you should see mine.
That's why I've got this
false thing behind me.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And the guilt of, of that and, and living
in an unfinished house and you know,
Rupert Isaacson: you
have guilt around that.
Yes.
Why?
Why Susie?
Because, because you, the, the,
the happiness that you give people
through your farm and your non nine
to five and everything is so tangible.
It's
Suzie Latchford: where is
Rupert Isaacson: the guilt from?
Suzie Latchford: I think it's
just inherent like not, you know,
I grew up in a middle class.
Family, parents were teachers and
different age and time in history.
And it, it was all about having a
nice house and, and having it be
clean and, and, extracurricular
activities are scheduled and you
know, like our life is just like,
and I'm okay with that.
I, I think now but it, there is a,
there's a huge amount of acceptance
that you go through because you're
not, you're not those things
Rupert Isaacson: That's
so interesting to me.
You know, it's funny, when I met
you, I never would've thought
that you'd have been somebody
who suffered that way because
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: when, when you see
people from the outside, you know, I, I,
I, I came to your farm, I came to your
house, I saw you were doing great work.
You know, you had a great
relationship, you had great kids.
The house is beautiful.
I, you know, I don't expect houses
to not be a little bit messy
'cause you should see mine if
we live outdoor lives like birth
Suzie Latchford: all the time.
And it never
Rupert Isaacson: would've occurred
to me that you had anything but
pleasure in that experience.
Were you always feeling
this guilt, do you think?
Or did it creep up?
Suzie Latchford: I think
I've always had it for sure,
Rupert Isaacson: because I
have, does Ron have it too?
Suzie Latchford: I have a very Type A mom.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: Very, very
type A mom and lover to bits.
And we're so involved in our
lives, both of, both of my parents.
And always have been.
But she's very, very organized.
Very controlled and very structured.
And does she
Rupert Isaacson: criticize
you for your wildlife?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah.
For sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you challenged
her and say, all right, mom,
there's a hundred animals outside.
Tell you what we'll swap for a week.
I'll do the housework.
You keep all that going.
And then at the end of that, let's
have a little talk about structure.
Suzie Latchford: And I
don't get any more animals.
You have too many animals.
Like this year it was
like, I want a Turkey.
I need Turkey in my life.
Now we have four turkeys and two peacocks.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: I'm like, and how
Rupert Isaacson: do you stop?
How do you stop the raccoons and
the, and the coyotes getting them,
Suzie Latchford: The
coyotes have been an issue.
Yeah.
But we have more of a
compound now that's fenced.
Then the, the fences are high enough.
Yeah.
And we do big dogs, but their wimps
and are al always with us in the
house, unless they come out with us.
But
Rupert Isaacson: well, the packs
of coyotes will eat them too, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, they are.
Oh
Suzie Latchford: yeah.
Oh yeah.
They're bad.
They're especially up where
Rupert Isaacson: you are.
'cause you have brush wolves, right.
You have the coyote wolf hybrids,
which are actually quite a lot bigger.
Yeah, yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
But, raccoons.
I don't know.
They've never knock on
wood, bothered us too much.
That might just be because of the dogs and
there's just always gone around here, so,
Rupert Isaacson: so it's,
it's very interesting to me.
So you also, you've also just said that
you've just come out of a big burnout.
Mm-hmm.
Again, that's intriguing to me
'cause I think that's a bit of an,
a non-res subject in what we do.
I myself have gone through various
times of burnout with this because
what, what we do is just so intense,
you know, between the long hours,
between the responsibilities with the
livestock, between the responsibilities
for just keeping people alive mm-hmm.
With horses, and then on top of that
now to deliver the service and then, you
know, the financial instability and so on.
Tell me about this burnout.
Did it hit you by surprise?
And what did you do about it?
Suzie Latchford: Well, it's been going
on for quite some time, and I think I,
I feel like you just get used to it.
Mm-hmm.
You can't stop.
Right?
This is the thing, like when,
when you're feeling exhausted and
you know that you're not right.
But regardless the amount
of responsibility on your
shoulder, it's like holding the.
It's like, you know, there's so
many people responsible that you're
responsible for, and so many animals
that you're responsible for that.
It just gets to be so
overwhelming sometimes.
You know, when you have to manage
staff and you have to pay your
staff and there's payroll and then,
you know, our animal expenses just
for hay and feed is 42,000 a year.
So, and then trying to describe what we
do to get funding, as I said in a box is,
is really, is really, really challenging.
Thank goodness for Chet GPT, I've
just become best friends with ai.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
AI really does help with this stuff.
I agree.
Suzie Latchford: Oh, for grants, like,
I was like, it's just such a breath of
fresh air because they just put it in
the box that it needs to go in and then,
and then, you know, engage the reader.
That's that.
I don't
Rupert Isaacson: consider
that cheating at all.
It's, it's exactly what
AI is supposed to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not supposed to write your novel.
It's supposed to get you a grant.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And it's, I would spend probably weeks on
a grant, whereas now I can spend hours.
Yeah.
So, but going back to the lead up
to the burnout, it's, it's gradual.
Until you get to a point where I,
like I was in a bad depression.
Like I knew something was wrong, but
I didn't know how bad it was until
I started to feel a little better.
Okay.
And this, this is just six weeks ago.
So, okay.
And then, yeah, the 42,000, it, it is
to feed your animals, getting the hay
in, feeding them, you know, getting the
hay out there, getting the, the feed in
for all of the animals and not having
always enough money for payroll to, to
have some come in and feed for you, like
on the days that you need it, right?
Mm-hmm.
So you do it and it, it just, it just
compacts And it just got to the point.
And at my ripe old age of 53, like there's
other contributing factors for women
that, of that age that impact as well.
And your body is, and your
mental wellness just goes,
Rupert Isaacson: did it, when
it hit you how did it manifest?
Like, did you just collapse?
What was the,
Suzie Latchford: Then
Rupert Isaacson: how did
you keep things going?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
High blood pressure for a
long time, like really bad.
Anxiety to the point where I'm just
up in flight mode all the time.
So my central nervous system is like,
Ooh, there's a bear out there constantly.
Not, which then would
exasperate everything else.
Not resting properly not giving your
body that time it needs to, or not giving
your body, not your body, not being
able to, or your mind not being able to,
to deliver that rest because it's just
Rupert Isaacson: in.
Right.
So how did it manifest?
Like did you suddenly not
getting outta bed one day?
Sorry.
Suzie Latchford: No.
Cortisol?
No.
I always had to get outta bed.
Like I always had to do it, but it
just made it like, for a while I
didn't even wanna be around horses.
Yeah.
It was like connecting with our horses.
I was kind of like taking a back
burner on wanting to facilitate.
Mm-hmm.
Not facilitate, like all those things that
you loved and enjoyed that are all of a
sudden you're so terrified because you're
like, where did my love go for that?
Because it feels like a burden right now.
Rupert Isaacson: This is so honest
that you're talking about this.
Okay.
So do you feel you are out of it?
Do you feel you're still in it?
Do you feel, how, how are you,
how are you coping with it?
How are you dealing with it?
Suzie Latchford: I am.
I'm coming out of it.
So now I'm all of a sudden I'm being
more mindful and going, okay, you need
to give yourself a break and be nice to
yourself because if you keep going on
this way you're gonna be good for nothing.
And I know that I, I still have
a lot of work to do in this life.
Mm-hmm.
And I need to have the energy in
order to, to move forward with that.
'cause I'm not done yet.
And I feel that intrinsically
and authentically, intuitively.
Rupert Isaacson: So I generally
feel that, yeah, when we have these,
these Nadia moments, these, you know,
bottom of the barrel moments, it's
often actually right before there's
going to be the next transformation
to the next really good thing.
I mean, I think we've all gone through
enough of them in our lives to sort of
know that pattern, but it's, it's very,
very hard to see that when you're in it.
And as you say, it's so relentless
the, the life that we lead.
You know, so interesting listening to
you because, you know, this is normally
what our clients come to us with, right?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think what
do you find that it's giving you
actually even more empathy with
the clients because you can really
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
It's almost scary 'cause you
can relate so much better.
So
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Yeah.
The vulnerability.
Yeah.
Thank you for, thank you for talking
like this because, you know, it, this
work that we do, it's so predicated
on having a strong personality,
leadership, all of these things.
And as you know, I mean it's, it's
predominantly female run our, our world.
Luckily we've got some great male
men within horse boy world, but you
know, it's vast majority is female.
And so one thing I, I really value about
that is that you give, you see a lot of
really great female leadership and that
knock on effect, not just to girls, but
also to boys, you know, to see strong
women in these, in these leadership roles.
But mm-hmm.
I think it's, it's, it's also difficult
because as you say you know, there
are certain things that can hit.
And you were saying just now
at 52, you know, there are
certain contributing factors.
So can we talk about that actually
really directly, because I think that
menopause is something which isn't
talked about enough in our line of work
because pretty much all the women who
are my colleagues you know, have been
running these programs for a while.
They perhaps started them
in their mid thirties.
Yeah.
And then right about the time that
they are really hitting their stride.
Boom, the menopause hits.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: how does this, I know,
I, I know so many of our listeners and
viewers will be going, yep, that's me.
Mm-hmm.
Tell us about how that
impacts you and the work and,
Suzie Latchford: well, you
don't know who you are anymore.
Like, I was a bit of an identity
crisis I found for myself.
And I know I talked to my doctor about it
and he goes, you don't know how many women
that have come into my office and said
that they don't know who they are anymore.
And that's a big one.
So it's rediscovering
yourself in a different way.
All of a sudden, like, I'm gonna talk
about periods because for me, my period
or, or my menstrual cycle each month
was a bit of a navigation tool for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: So I knew it was
like a, it's an ebb and flow, and
then all that's gone and you can't,
it's like you're lost a little bit.
You're motherless
Rupert Isaacson: maybe.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Like the moon cycle
or you know, I would know, oh, okay,
I am PMSing, so this is the next
phase and this is the next phase.
And you know, you, you get your cycle
and then a couple days later you feel
this sense of your skin feels better
and your body feels better and your
cleansing and then, you know, it was
just something to count on, something
that you knew and sudden it's gone
Rupert Isaacson: back to structure again.
Yeah.
Nature.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
You're not quite sure.
Yeah.
It's just learning a new
way of being, I guess.
Rupert Isaacson: Is there kind of
grief with that, that of, of sort
of almost watching an old self die?
Yeah.
Before the new self is birthed.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
It really, a hundred percent.
And yeah, those feeling and then the
physical ailments of it, you know, all
of a sudden you skin is, say you're
your, you know, your, you don't have
as much muscle or you've lost muscle
and you're weaker and not as resilient.
And so all of those things that
go along with that as well.
Did you find
Rupert Isaacson: that was
a real, a, a real thing?
Like suddenly you're picking
up the hay bale and thinking,
whoa, this feels heavier?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
For me it's my, yeah, the muscle, my, my
muscles and legs and things like that.
And that, that could be contributing
just also from being exhausted too.
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Mm mm Yeah.
So, yeah.
What, what, what are your strategies?
Let's structure them out.
So, so, so the strategies first
for the hormonal side, because with
this is coming emotional, right?
Hormone is emotion.
And then let's go to the physical.
I think this is so useful for people
to have a really frank discussion about
this, because you are not gonna stop, you
know, you're gonna be doing this until
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Drop, right?
So you've got, and I think so many of
our, our listeners who are in the same
boat, they're like, okay, I'm menopause.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm dealing with burnout.
I'm, but, you know, my, my, my
practice is bigger than it's ever been.
Mm-hmm.
This is a measure of success.
Alright.
What are my strategies then?
So let's go to the and I know menopause
is different for everybody, so it's
a bit like autism, you know, it's
different in every person, right?
Yeah.
But what are your strategies emotionally?
Like what, be beyond
the, the loss of Okay.
The, the menstrual cycle and,
and identity, but, mm-hmm.
Or, or at least navigation as
you said, but what are the other
emotional impacts and how do
you, how do you deal with those?
Suzie Latchford: Hmm.
Being aware, like I was aware that
I wasn't right, but it wasn't enough
almost to, because I still couldn't stop.
Mm-hmm.
And then that would exasperate everything.
But
for me now being at, you know, coming
out of the burnout at this point, it's
just being more mindful and, and telling,
like it's retraining your brain really.
And so, 'cause you can ruminate so much
on stuff and it just gets worse and worse.
So stopping and being aware of your
thoughts and trying to change that
negative chatter, but you have to
have the strength to do that too.
So,
and I don't know,
gosh,
how, I guess you just get, I
got so far down that I had to do
something to bring myself back up.
So I, I personally had to try a
different medication for a bit
that helped my brain sort of.
Spark again, if you will.
Mm-hmm.
And that snapped me out enough to
be able to take that step back.
Hmm.
And it, it just, and I, I just be started
becoming more positive and I started
having those conversations in my brain
that were more positive and more like
me again, because I'm a, I'm a, I'm a
person that sees the, the glass half full.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Suzie Latchford: I was not, I
was seeing the glass half empty.
Rupert Isaacson: That must
have been quite shocking.
Yeah, it's
Suzie Latchford: scary.
It was very scary.
And, and so
yeah, being open to trying
something different, whether it's,
you know, medication for a bit or
going to a naturopath,
I don't, I don't know.
But there becomes this point where
you know that if it, if you don't
do something, then you're just gonna
go downhill and then nothing's good
for anybody or anything anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you also get to a
point where you could reach out to help?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Indefinitely?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It.
I had to reach out to my family
doctor and my friends and
support group and, and family.
And that had to be a combination
of, of, of a few things.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's very difficult when you've
been leading, you know, for so long.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
To,
Rupert Isaacson: because, because
the worry is, you know, I think
for all of us is when we ask if
someone else will step forward that
unless we are leading by
example the whole time.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, people
will lose their own momentum.
Have you actually found
that that's not true?
Have you found that
asking your team to step up more has
actually been galvanizing for them?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
So I, I was speaking about Olivia, who
is basically our manager right now.
And she, like, she just, one of our
staff went on maternity leave and so
it was time for, for Liv to step up
and and she took it and ran with it.
And, you know, I feel
so fortunate to have.
A young person, like she's just
turning 25, a young person like
that to have so much like energy
and inspiration and, and hard work.
And they're hard to find now.
Yeah.
And so I, you know,
she's a godsend for me.
And I don't tell her enough, but I see,
I see her being, she can be successful in
this in this industry, be because of that.
And there's just not very many
people out there like that.
So, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's, it's
Suzie Latchford: definitely,
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think, and
listening to you talk, you know,
I, I, I'm starting to talk more
and more about burnout when we
are doing the horse boy trainings.
Mm-hmm.
And telling people, look,
you are gonna burnout.
In fact, if you think about your 24 hour
cycle, you actually burn out every day.
There's a point at which
you fall unconscious.
Right.
You actually could not stay awake
and working if you tried, and if
you pushed yourself through that,
it would just lead to insanity.
Mm-hmm.
But I, you know, in our sort
of particularly our Protestant
Anglo-Saxon culture, this idea of
to be the constant workhorse that
work ethic is so instilled in us.
That when the inevitable burnouts
happen we are, we feel ashamed,
we feel it shouldn't be happening.
We try to fight it.
And more and more now I'm telling
people expect it and plan for it.
Yeah.
And actually learn.
What is your burnout cycle?
Like, I think, I think I have a
six weekly burnout cycle myself.
Because, you know, I travel a lot.
I'm on planes a lot.
I'm on jet lag a lot.
Then when I'm home, you know, there's
large livestock and we've got clients
and blah, blah, blah, and I got young
kids and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, of course
there's going to be burnout.
And it used to be that I wouldn't,
I wouldn't even allow the topic to
come up and then I'd notice myself
like hitting the bottle and Yeah.
Being like really grumpy and not
being nice and people pointing it
out to me, you know, and me like
not wanting to hear that at all.
And then at a certain point kind of
going, oh, actually, shit, you're right.
Okay, what am I gonna do about that?
And I started doing things
that I never did before.
So, for example, I, I take
naps I use yoga nidra a lot.
Yeah.
Have you come across yoga nidra?
The guided, it's phenomenal.
Yeah.
So guided meditations while you
basically lie with your eyes closed.
Yeah.
You don't have to sit in
some uncomfortable pose.
And basically what you do is you just
go through a body scan of being aware
of these different parts of your body.
Mm-hmm.
And there's no wrong way to do it.
So if you fall asleep, it's fine.
And, but it, it's, they call
it nons sleep, deep relaxation.
It's like a, a, a deep rest
that where 15 minutes can be
like, you just slept tonight.
And just beginning to sort of let
myself even just be comfortable with the
fact that I'm tired meant that I could
Suzie Latchford: It's not a weakness.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
But we were all brought up,
you know, to see it as that
Suzie Latchford: I find, like even with
Ron, you know, like it, if he's feeling
physically tired or you know, his
back is sore, like I, it's it, for me,
it's like it affects him so much more.
Mm.
I'm assuming it's like a sign of, you
know, weakness and, and it's not, it's
just your body's telling you something.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And if you've gone it as hard physically,
you know, as you and Ron have, you know,
in the course of say, the last 20 years
or, or so, you know, how can there not
be, you know, a point at which your
body just says, dude, you know, come on.
And it's also gotta be hard for a
guy like Ron, because I know him.
You know, he's, he's,
he's a big strong dude.
He's very capable.
He's got all those skills.
He's used to being the guy with the
skills and the guy with the strength
and the guy, you know, and to feel a
kind of wobble in that is very scary.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So as you move forward now mm-hmm.
Because your, your, your program
is as bigger than it's ever been.
As you say, you've got a hundred
animals and you've got, you know,
four turkeys in your life as well as,
you know, all the horses and so on.
Yeah.
How are you, how are you reorganizing
everything so that this is now
sustainable for you personally?
Suzie Latchford: Definitely
trying now to figure out like,
how is this gonna run without me?
Because once Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Succession plan.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Have to, and you
know, it is a community organization.
Like we, we are a charity not one
person that's supposed to own it.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
You have a board and.
We do things a little differently,
but we basically have picked our
board and we're all on the same
page and, and get things done.
But preparing for the future as to
I, you know, my goals right now are,
are to make things more efficient.
You know, there's still a lot of
things lacking on the farm, like
just proper fencing and, and proper
ways of making it easier to feed the
animals and, you know, not having all
the goats eating the pig's food, even
though it's all the same, but Right.
Goats are
Rupert Isaacson: goats Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: And
Rupert Isaacson: great social animals,
but they are a pain in the us.
Suzie Latchford: I, it's,
they're, they're wonderful.
But when you, when it comes to feeding,
it's mayhem and those things figured out
and, you know, so it's not frustrating.
Every day isn't frustrating when it's time
to feed and, and having those going on.
And so those are, those are my main goals.
Moving, moving forward and, and
still expanding our programs.
I don't wanna create a whole, like not
many more new programs or anything.
I think we have a good core,
core, core things that we're doing
that are working but becoming
a little more affluent for me.
I, I would like to get back to doing
a bit more of the communication type
pieces with the horses from the ground.
Mm-hmm.
And just think more about their body
language, learning more about what, what
they're communicating back to us and
being, to share that a little bit more.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
You know, one of the things which,
you know, people often assume with
Horse Boy is that because it's a
mounted program we're spending all
our time in the saddle and actually,
you know, all the preparation for
it is on the ground, you know?
Yeah.
We are constantly doing groundwork
with our horses so that when we're
in the saddle with someone else's
kid, we know it's gonna flow, but
that flow actually comes from time
spent on the ground with the horse
rather than time spent in the saddle.
And this is often I think, not
looked at enough in therapy programs.
If they're ground based, the horse doesn't
get enough exercise, you know, someone
actually should be riding them and trail
riding them and taking them out in the
world and giving them an interesting time.
But that doesn't have to be you, that can
be a, a another staff member, you know?
Yeah.
Or they love to jump and they love to
go crazy, but they can be free jumped.
They can, there's so many ways to,
to do that kind of thing, to give
them the outlet for that energy.
And at the same time, the people
that are very riding focused.
Often don't spend enough
time on the ground.
So often it seems to be about having a
team where you've got people who have
their various likes and preferences, and
then you can sort of divide the wellbeing
of the horse up into those chunks so that
people aren't doing the thing that scares
them or that they don't really mm-hmm.
Like to do or bores them or, or whatever.
So much it is about tribe and team.
I feel you know, the, having spent
time in Mongolia with actual horse
tribes, you sort of see how it's
always a big extended family endeavor.
Horses are complex, particularly
in those climates, and you deal
with this climate yourself.
I wanna go back to the winter and
I know winter is, is a great time
for burnout in Canada when you have
to be outside in it all the time.
I, I worked as a window cleaner,
as an illegal immigrant in Montreal
through the winter and, you know, blah.
Yeah.
You know, but I was 21.
I mean, you know, imagine doing
it at, you know, 50 something.
But how do you keep your horses
and how do you go through
the winter with your horses?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
So our horses are out 24 7.
They have shelters in the
field that you would think they
would use more than they do.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
interesting, isn't it?
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: yeah.
So they, they'll go in there,
in and out, but it's not always
because the weather is bad.
So like, we've just never had, I, I grew
up boarding my horse like I got a horse
when I was 12 and you know, she was
in a stall, you know, and then turned
out during the day and then sort of
brought back in and, and that's how I
just knew horses were just in a stall.
But when we moved to our property here
and they could finally get horses back
in my life, we didn't have a barn.
So of course they had a shelter.
And I learned from that experience
that they're pretty happy to be
able to come and go as they please.
And, you know, we feed, we have
hay available 24 7, so, you know,
they're not worried about when
their next meal is coming, which
creates less stress for them.
Mm.
And we feel when our horses come in to
do a session or to do some work or for
a brush or for whatever reason, we feel
that allowing them to go back out and
mingle with their herd and be a part
of that equine system, if you will, is,
is the best thing we can do for them.
Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.
It's really interesting.
You know, we obviously in, I,
I've been through all these
different ways of keeping horses.
When I was a boy, we kept
our horses out all the time.
In England, except in the winter
they came in at night, um mm-hmm.
Because they were hunters.
They were gonna be clipped, so they
were wearing rugs, but then we'd
bring them in at night for warmth.
Yeah.
But they were outside in their herd
all day, and that was just very normal.
Then of course, in Texas, well, we
just had a 24 7 outside climate,
you know, horses needed shade.
They'd go in to shelters for
the shade, but we, we had them,
you know, living outside of the
shelters and they loved that.
Then when I moved to Germany, we
spent the last several years in
Germany, it was really interesting.
We had to board the horses, and
I'd always been very kind of, oh
yes, well, you've gotta keep your
horses out, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it was the first time because
we, we couldn't just like show up
and buy a farm that, I mean, the
kids were very young and so on.
So we were like, okay,
let's board the horses.
It'll be easier for us in these
years because we need to give a lot
of attention to infant children.
And Germans are people who love
rules and regulations and structure.
And so the, the summer was
very easy because the horses
were out most of the time.
But the winter, they don't put the
horses on the fields because they
don't want to see a lot of mud.
I grew up in England,
it's like, yeah, mud.
I mean, it's just weird.
We invented mud.
It's like, you know, you awards for the
Muddiest farm, you know, so, you've got
those Monty piping things about, you
know, oh, have some nice mud, you know,
would you like a bit of mud with your mud?
But.
Then suddenly with
them, mud's not allowed.
So what they would do is they would
put the horses out for maybe two hours
a day in what they called a paddock.
And the paddock was just like
this sterile area of sand.
They sure they could stand
out there in a group.
They didn't even have a free ha thing.
And I looked at this and kind
of went, what are we gonna do?
These horses are standing in like 22 hours
a day, then they've just been put out,
okay, we are working them as well, so
let's shave a couple of hours off there.
It's not enough.
What do we do?
So I thought, okay, this gives me a
lot of compassion for people suddenly
who are having to keep horses in this
way because they may not have a choice.
You know, they, they live
in a outskirts of a town.
That's the only thing available.
And then you're at the
mercy of the barn owner.
So we came up with this idea of crazy
time where we spent a lot of time letting
horses free jump in groups, in herds,
inside covered arenas or open arenas
with outside with, with better footing.
And we found that went an awful long way.
And then we'd like go in the forest in the
day and we'd like ride one, lead two and
let them like gallop on anything we could
do to like, give them their endorphins
and give them their social time and give.
But like we had to put
so much effort into it.
Then we, then we rented a place
where we could just keep them.
24 7 outside again with just
shelters exactly as you described.
And Germany gets a bit of a Canadian
winter not quite as bad, but we certainly
get quite a few weeks of like deep
ice snow if you're a certain altitude.
And we found that the horses
of course, just thrived.
And if you think about the step
in Mongolia, that's exactly
what you find, isn't it?
You've got like really hot summers,
but like massively cold winters.
And this is where the horse comes from.
This is what horses are
actually adapted to.
Yeah.
So it it, it's intriguing to me that you,
you, you've found that actually there in
Canada, even with the snowy climate, the
horses really are totally okay with this.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Now we do blanket the ones that need it.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: But there's a,
you know, we have one Oberon.
I mean, he's, he's an American
cream draft in a Lucy Cano mix.
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh, that
sounds quite intriguing.
Suzie Latchford: You know,
like, we've never blanketed him.
He doesn't need it.
He doesn't want it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sometimes they tear the blanket off.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: We put a rain
sheet on him and he's also
the, the lead guy out there.
Right.
So we put a rain sheet on him and
it freaked the entire herd out.
I had to take it off.
Rupert Isaacson: That's funny.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
They didn't know who he was.
It was like, it was funny.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you
find that that is a growing thing in
Canada now that people are actually
trusting a little bit more to nature?
Because certainly when I was living there,
people were very much about putting the
horses up in the barns through the winter.
Is it beginning to change?
Suzie Latchford: I believe so, and,
and I also, it's also depending on what
you're doing with your horse and where
you're boarding it, so Absolutely.
You know, definitely there's boarding
facilities out there where people can,
you have, you pay extra, but your horse
has a stall or you pay less and it's,
they're out with other horses 24 7.
So it just depends on what you're doing.
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to
be more and more that it's,
it's about the herd structures.
Yeah.
That really brings about the
wellbeing for the horses.
And as, as much as I do these trainings
going around different countries,
different places one of the things
I see in the more old school types
of therapeutic riding center is
lack of equine wellbeing, because
these herd structures are ignored.
I, I was actually very
pleasantly surprised.
I went and did a, a training
earlier this year in Michigan,
which is sort of, you know, as.
As Canadian as you can be while being
an American or as American as you can
be while being a Canadian, there's
an interesting hybrid of people.
There's like, you guys are kind of
like Canadians, kind of cool, you know?
But this is a path international center.
You know, I'm used to the path
international places, having these
very rigid structures and the horses
are all in stalls all the time,
and often, frankly, not very happy
and often a bit stiff and arthritic
and not looked after in that way.
Despite the fact that there's
often a lot of good infrastructure
and all these safety protocols.
But this place is called Renew.
Had they'd built this barn and
then realized actually the horses
don't really want to be in here.
And so they'd just gotten all these really
cool outdoor paddocks with these horses
all in their different herd structures
and the, even in their climate and the
resulting equine wellbeing that I was
seeing mentally, emotionally, as well as
physically was just much more like what
I'd see in a horse boy place, frankly.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Do you, are you, do you help other
people in their getting their
therapeutic things off the ground?
Do, do, do you, have you, do you sort
of advise people now sort of a little
bit on lead structures and that?
I,
Suzie Latchford: I haven't yet, but I feel
it's something, in the last year or so,
I've, I've been thinking more about, you
know what, like I have enough wisdom now.
I feel that I could be sharing stuff
to, to make it easier for other people
to try and do something similar.
Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.
I agree.
And, you know, I, I think something
else that, you know, what's come up
through this conversation, I didn't
expect us to, you know, be talking
about burnout and menopause and so
on, but this is actually so important.
Mm-hmm.
Because if, if you don't have
wellbeing or the horse doesn't have
wellbeing, how can you possibly
transmit that to somebody else?
Right.
Suzie Latchford: Well, and that's why we
started, all of these things were for,
to help people with their wellbeing.
And so yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's like
doctor, physician, heal thyself.
But
Suzie Latchford: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: so I, I feel
that, you know, one of the things
I'd love to see from you would be
a series of courses or trainings
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Really directed
at people running these types
of businesses who are female.
Yeah.
But also male.
There's a sort of male menopause too.
You know, you can't really call it that,
but you know what I mean, as, as people
hit middle age and the, the various,
you know, things that can come up to
really say having, and I think for that.
If you were to sort of structure
again that word out some sort of
course that people could do you
yourself have to have gone through
it and felt the despair, right?
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Oh yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Otherwise,
what have you got to offer?
What do you, when would you say you
arrived at that point of despair?
Suzie Latchford: Oh, definitely.
Yep.
What?
I was terrified.
I was terrified.
Rupert Isaacson: EE exactly.
Did talk us through that.
Like did it suddenly catch you by surprise
That was there suddenly like a realization
and, and what, what did your inner voice
say when, when you hit that realization,
answer those two things, if you would.
So first thing is, is at what point
did you notice that you really were
actually not just unhappy, not just
depressed, not just, you know, tired,
not just, but actually despairing.
Let, maybe just go with that one first.
How at what point did you realize that
Suzie Latchford: within the last year?
Just feeling like I was spinning out
of control not making good decisions.
Just vi like, I felt like
I was vibrating at a level
Rupert Isaacson: with the people.
Good decisions with your
livestock generally.
Like what?
All
Suzie Latchford: Everything.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: Everything in
myself how I was reacting to things.
Did you
Rupert Isaacson: find you
were getting kind of mean?
Suzie Latchford: Oh yeah.
I was getting mean, I was
not, I did not feel nice.
No, I wasn't being and did you
Rupert Isaacson: notice that at the
time or were you just so into it
that you were kind of blind to it?
Suzie Latchford: I was aware of
it in questioning it all the time.
Like, why am I feeling angry?
This is not me.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
And then at a certain point you went,
okay, I gotta do something about this.
I gotta put, I gotta walk the
walk that I'm, walk the talk
that I'm saying to my clients.
If you were to give advice to somebody
who's hitting that, and I bet you so many
people listening to this are hitting that.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And it's so honest of you.
It's, I I I, I've got so much respect
for you, Susie, for, you know, 'cause
we could have just had, we could
have just had a big conversation
about how successful your program is.
And it is, and, and it, what we mustn't
lose sight of is that through this whole.
Burnout thing.
You never like dropped the ball.
You know, you, you,
you, you kept it going.
Yeah.
You know, you, you, you fulfilled your,
your, your obligations and so forth.
And again, so many of the women
listening I think are in that
position where they are doing that.
But okay, so you, you reach that,
that thing you say, okay, shit,
you know, I'm not myself, I'm
being kind of mean as this not me.
This is not Susie.
And you're right.
I know you having, I hang, not hung out
that long, but the interactions we had,
this is a very sunny, positive person,
as you said, a glass half full person,
which is of course why you got the whole
thing off the ground in the first place.
And of course Ron is that way too.
Yes.
But so did I know you said okay, you,
you said okay to stop to this, to that.
But can you go into just
a little bit more detail?
If you were going to, if you were
going to give a, like a training
to another woman in your position a
year from now, what would you say?
What, like what are the steps?
Like really what are the steps
to like get through this, survive
it, and get back to thriving?
Suzie Latchford: Woo.
That's a hard one because, you
know, I do think so differently.
I, I don't.
If I could go back and change a
few things of how it all started.
I am, I am in general.
Let's start
Rupert Isaacson: there.
That's perfect.
Let's start there.
Suzie Latchford: Having a
bit more of a plan, not being
running things so much on a whim.
And, and in that
Rupert Isaacson: structure,
Suzie Latchford: yes, there was a
lot of sacrifice and I sacrificed
a lot, but then I also expected
the people around me to sacrifice
things too, which is Ron, my family.
You know, like this just became, this
farm became our lifestyle, which I was
okay with, but not always, you know,
Ron may not have always been, you know,
like, it's, it's, he's formed around it
and been a part of it, but it's, I'm not
even answering your question right now.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, no, but
this is a free flow though.
I mean, and I just fired this
at you and I, I think we're
arriving towards an answer, right?
Absolutely.
When you say, let's just back
to your opening statement there,
you said you would have more of
a, you've had more of a plan.
What would've been in that plan?
Suzie Latchford: Well, I didn't
know, like at that point I didn't
know heel with horses was gonna
be what it is today, like at all.
And
Rupert Isaacson: you didn't
know how big it was gonna get.
Suzie Latchford: No, I didn't, you know,
I, I didn't know that small animals
were gonna be a apart, I didn't know,
you know, that we would expand on the,
on the horses as, as much as we have.
I didn't know what program, I didn't
know we would have a mobile component.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yes.
We haven't talked about
your mobile component.
I don't talk about that.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: So those, those
little things are beautiful,
that, that came out of it.
But, but maybe going back and
just having somewhat of a plan you
know, to start with, like, I didn't
know how to get charitable status.
We didn't know anything.
We didn't know how to have a board.
We didn't know it.
It was just learning all
of those things as we go.
Right.
And to be able to go back and do,
you know, what, what are the, what
would you recommend to someone to,
you know, not do some of those things
so that you don't arrive in such a
burned out spot, having more money.
Right.
Nice Rupert, you know, having a little
bit more of a some finances to, to go
into something like this with um mm-hmm.
Would certainly cut down
a lot of the stress.
But I mean, I don't know it,
but then at the same time, like, this
is the way that my life went with it.
It doesn't always have to
be that for someone else.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
I wonder if what you are, what
you are arriving at here is a
mentorship component, you know?
Yeah.
20 years ago when we were sort of
getting into this this was a very
young field and I think we all got
into it organically, obviously, you
know, I did, you know, it was never my
intention, but obviously it happened to
me and then, you know, you go with it.
So I think people like you and I had
to kind of react and roll with and a
sort of organic evolutionary process.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Whereas if someone
was to come to us now and say, oh,
Ru or Susie, I would like to do
this, you know, how should I proceed?
I think you'd be in a very good position
to say, well, here are the, here's
here would be some good structures.
Here's some mistakes that we made.
Yeah.
Actually outta these mistakes, some
good things happened, but, you know,
perhaps you could mitigate some
stress by trying to grow in these.
Particular ways here are some
pitfalls to avoid, et cetera.
You know, none of us had that, you know,
coming 'cause who, who really could have
mentored us because when you and I were
coming in, there was Path International.
There was tantra up where you were,
they were running these very kind of
almost sort of military, you know Yeah.
Types of outfit, which we knew was
not gonna work for our population.
People that don't follow top down
instruction, you know, people that need
a much freer follow the child approach.
So we weren't gonna get
that kind of mentorship.
Now where I got, where I was so fortunate
was I got, 'cause I, you know, I
directly reached out for it, but all
the mentorship I got from Temple Grandin
about how to proceed, and that's of
course where Follow the Child comes from.
It's not some idea that Rupert
Isaacson had it, it really came
from mentorship from Temple.
And actually probably you could argue from
her mother, you know, who, who came up
with you could actually argue that Horse
Boy Method and Movement method are largely
driven by the efforts and researchers of
Temple Grandad's mother back in the 1950s.
But the, the, you know, we, we, we, yeah.
Our, our field was just very young.
If you were going to talk to your
younger Susie, go back 20 years,
what would you tell her to do?
Suzie Latchford: Well, I would still tell
her to listen to her gut and trust it.
I, I know that's mm-hmm.
You know, honor, know as much
about yourself as you can.
I know that's difficult too,
because you haven't gone through
a lot of the experiences yet and
be true to your authenticity.
I mean, I am, I am a born
introvert and learned how to be
an interesting, I learned how to
be an for a very, very long time.
Mm-hmm.
Understanding those two things and
knowing, oh, I'm feeling overstimulated.
Okay.
And that's my, that's, that's a cue
to perhaps getting some solitude and,
and taking that time to breathe and
ground again or whatever you need to do.
Because being out in the public
all the time, and even if it's on
a farm and you're managing other
people, you're, you're still on.
And it's, and when it's at
your own home it's hard to have
those, boundaries, if you will.
So I think that's pretty important.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, most of us have to grow our
practices out of our home places.
It's
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and it's interesting
having done both I've, I've had the
experience of, you know, my practice
being outta my house out of my farm,
and also my practice being at another
farm and me having a house away.
And I'd say there's pros and cons to both.
Yeah.
But
if they are on your farm, as you
say, it's really important that you
can find some territory of solitude.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Where at least people
would only come in by invitation.
I think that's important, sort of looking
at the, you know, because it, it is really
difficult as, you know, like when we were
first starting at new trails, there wasn't
a bathroom unless he came into the house.
So it's just something simple like that.
You, you can't deny someone
the bathroom, you know?
And then next thing you know, they're
sat they're sat at your kitchen table
and people are sat there forever.
Yeah.
So you are running workshops
out of where you are.
Mm-hmm.
And so how do you deal with, how do
you do that when you got burnout?
Suzie Latchford: Well, exactly.
I haven't been doing them
very much in the last couple.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel
ready to go back to them?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Would you do them from your home now
or would you look for another space?
Suzie Latchford: I don't
have to do them in my home.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
We
Suzie Latchford: have
the clubhouse down there.
You
Rupert Isaacson: have a clubhouse.
Okay.
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: that's in front of
the we have a dome, a white riding
dome with the end walls, and it's
like one of those fabric spaces.
And then, so the clubhouse
is basically a 50 by, what
is it, 50, 50 feet long
by about 15 feet wide.
And so we have a space that we
can use in there, and then we
have outdoor spaces as well.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I,
I, I, I, I hear you on all this.
It's I think there's a learning
curve that everyone has to go through
where you do it in a way that perhaps
isn't optimal because you can't.
Have, you can't wait for
conditions to be perfect.
You know what I mean?
It's like, when is the right time to have
a child or when is the right time to start
a business or it, it's, there's never a
right time, so you just gotta do it and
Suzie Latchford: yeah, you'll learn.
Rupert Isaacson: But it might
be more or less stressful.
Yes.
It's intriguing to me that you
say you're an introvert that's
learned how to be an extrovert.
'cause I'd say I'm the same.
Suzie Latchford: Oh yes.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I can, I, you
know, I can absolutely project a very
confident smokescreen and, and I have to.
I mean, it's, it's not that
it's just life requires it.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But as
you say, there is a cost.
And so if you don't try to balance
it out with these periods of
solitude, you know, weirdly, I find
plane rides really relaxing long.
I'm often doing long hauls, you know,
between Europe and, and North America.
And it's like, ah,
eight hours, no talking.
Suzie Latchford: You're like,
Rupert Isaacson: it's like I'm good.
Yeah.
And I often come off, you know, I get
jet lagged, but I often come off quite
refreshed spiritually just 'cause
there's been time to go and tell.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So something that you said,
which I think is quite innovative
you've got this mobile unit.
I love that because we used to do a lot
of that in the early years of Horse Boy.
We would take our animals out to schools
to you know, autism facilities resident.
We'd even go into the parks in Austin
with our horses and un just with a horse
trailer unbox and start playing with the
ponies and seeing who wanted to come up or
you know, and even in Germany, actually,
what I started doing, particularly when
we were at this boarding facility and
I knew we had, we had people that you
just could not keep safe around that.
So I would say to that, to their group
or their parent, meet me in the forest,
there's a car park like over there.
I will be there at 11
o'clock with two horses.
Yeah.
And learn to use those
environments of public spaces.
So tell me about your I think not enough
people do this kind of thing and people
get very stuck on their own properties.
Tell me about your mobile unit.
Suzie Latchford: Well, it, it came
about actually quite a few years
back in a smaller scale where,
you know, we get invited to bring
animals to the Lavender Festival over
the weekend and blah, blah, blah.
But we, we wrote a grant and got some
funding and it bought us a little van.
That we could put the animals in and,
and then paid for us to go out in, into
some nursing homes in, in our community.
So that's how it started.
So nursing
Rupert Isaacson: homes are where
you tend to do your mobile unit.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Yeah.
So, that's how that began.
And so it is just, and now, you
know, there we have enough of a
rapport that sometimes families
will a ask us to come and bring the
animals for their child's birthday.
Or we've been, as far as Ottawa
University, where they've had us come
in and during exams and bring the
animals into the library to give,
give the students a bit of a break.
And I might just say, you know,
we've brought a, a piglet bunnies.
What a great idea.
Rupert Isaacson: Who
came up with that idea?
That's a great idea.
Suzie Latchford: I know.
Well, they contacted us and we,
they, we did it twice one year.
And we were at Queen University just
in October, and they had us come in for
their alumni event in October in the fall.
And, and again, and, and because
so people are, are realizing that
that animals are, are helping
people's wellbeing even if it's just.
Like, a lot of the time they have dogs
walking around the airports and stuff,
or, or a, or a pig or something like that.
Just, just to offer some comic
relief and a bit of stress relief.
So, but it a hundred percent
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
When you going into the
old people's homes mm-hmm.
How do you, how do you do it?
Suzie Latchford: In the summertime, like
in the spring and the summer, if they have
a garden, we'll, we'll do it out there.
But the last few times, the one
nursing home, we've just, we have
a little Kon Kon Piglet right now
named Bridget, and she is a star.
She's the cutest little
thing you can imagine.
She's like a bull in a China shop,
but she goes, she just walks in
with everybody and she, like, as
soon as you scratch her, she flops.
So there's pictures of her just with
the, the residents, like in their
wheelchairs, just bending over, scratching
her, and we bring little, like, back
scratchers and stuff so that they're,
they can reach the animals better.
We bring our goats the bunnies.
Yeah, we've even we can fit the mini
horses in that little minivan as well.
We don't do that as often, but
we have brought them to places
as well, so it's pretty cool.
Rupert Isaacson: What do
you find is the reaction?
What, what does it bring
out of people in business?
Oh, well,
Suzie Latchford: specifically in
the seniors homes you'll get them,
like, they'll have memories like
from, and, and it's fantastic.
Sorry, my dogs because they're actually
talking about, you know, when they were
younger and if they lived on a farm
and how the animals made them feel.
And, and it's rekindling like nice
memories and nice feelings for them.
So that's pretty, it's pretty awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: Do stories come out?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: Can
you give us an example?
Does anything spring to mind?
Suzie Latchford: Oh, jeepers.
I haven't been doing them as much, so
I can't think of any specific stories
offhand, but just really just the the
experiences of like, quite a few times
of, of, you know, they'll be holding the
bunny and petting the bunny and they'll,
they'll have a bunny story come up, or,
oh, I used to have bunnies or I used to.
Live on a farm, and I would, I would
be the ones passed to, you know, feed
the chickens or get the eggs or, you
know, feed the pigs and, you know, oh,
we used to have pigs when I grew up.
And it, it just, it also sparks a lovely
conversation and communication piece
Rupert Isaacson: where Absolutely.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, what I think
it seems to spark is neuroplasticity.
And, you know, one of the difficulties
with the way we view aging in
our society is we put old people
in, like old people parking lots.
Yeah.
And when these are the people who've
got all the wisdom and you know, in any
other human system in the world, the
elders are respected, treasured, looked
after, consulted with, you know, because
they're your repository of a lifetime
of, of information that you need.
And here in the west, we just park them.
And of course when the brain is
part, the body is parked, the brain
gets parked and the brain starts
to, you know, not do what it should.
So one of the things which that's why I
was intrigued about if stories come out,
because I've definitely seen mobile units
at work and I wish there were more people
in our field doing the mobile units.
With the small animals.
Yeah.
You know, because often stories come
out even with people who seem to
have retreated into dementia and then
suddenly really lucidly you will get
a story about, you know, a particular
time in their life that might have
a real resonance to the family.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe this family has lost that type
of communication with that person
and then suddenly there's, you can
retrieve a bank of memories and stories
that become part of the family law.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: bring that person back
to life in the eyes of the family where
they might have sort of written them off.
And then also sometimes healing of trauma.
There was, I dunno if you listened,
but we did a podcast a few weeks ago
with my friend Giddy Bergoff, who runs
an amazing program in Germany, and she
used to actually be a dementia nurse
before got into the whole equine thing.
And she talks about how the sense
smoking a bunny or scratching a pig
or even like with a ball of wool
or something sparking memories.
And some of these memories that
were coming up were from the war.
And of people who'd really gone through
some pretty terrible things as civilians
and had had to kind of push them down,
you know, horrible things when the
Russians invaded, that sort of thing.
You can imagine.
And the stories of that coming
up, bringing a kind of a healing
which maybe they'd sat on
that story for 50 or 60 years.
Yeah.
So I'm, I'm a great believer in the
mobile units going up, particularly
to the very young and the very old.
But, and then also the same, the same
group they're called Green Care Farm.
They're in Munster in Germany.
In the local school, which
was doing movement method.
Someone made a bomb threat or
in a school shooting threat.
It was a school that was overwhelmed
with Russian and Ukrainian refugees
and of course their fighting.
And this freaks everyone out
and so they brought all of their
animals into the school and it
completely changed the dynamic.
Mm-hmm.
So I often think that that's
actually some of the best work
that people in our field can do.
Is that something that you are
looking, you will expand, do you think?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, I would love, yeah.
Anything like that?
You know.
The education system is just,
well, in Canada it's struggling.
Rupert Isaacson: Both show
a place where it isn't.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: My teach my sisters
are both teachers and my dad's
a retired teacher and my mom was
in the education system as well.
So, I just hear from my
sisters how chaotic is it?
It is.
And you know, and behaviors and
how they handle them and or how
they're supposed to handle them.
And I feel like jeepers, all, you just
bring an animal into the classroom
and change the tone, like immediately.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
It's like a shamanic effect.
Yeah.
It seems to bring out, put everyone
on the top of their game somehow.
I agree.
Now of course if you do more mobile unit,
then you have to be more extroverted.
So is that something that you might
then now having gone through the burnout
cycle, delegate to another staff member,
Suzie Latchford: delegate most of that?
Yes.
It's usually I'm not usually going and
and heading them, heading them up now, so,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that kind of what
you, your advice would be to people
hitting that mid career thing with What
we do is just start learning to delegate?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
And that's never been my forte, so,
but yeah, you have to, you have to.
Now how do you do it?
Well, I mean, I have, I have Liv or I
have that I, I can do that with, and she
takes a lot of that off my plate for me.
Yeah.
You know, she was a McDonald's manager and
I swear, and Emma, our assistant manager
is also, was, also worked for McDonald's
as a manager and they got it going on.
Like they know how to delegate,
they know how to Well, they have
Rupert Isaacson: a system, right.
They get given a, a system within
that franchise, don't they?
Yeah.
Like you don't have to like figure
out how to run a McDonald's.
They tell you how to run a McDonald's.
Yeah.
And
Suzie Latchford: they've applied
that elsewhere in their lives now.
Mm.
You know, for this position or for,
you know, whatever they're going into.
I think there's been more, I have
another staff that was also a manager.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that the golden rule?
Is, the golden rule is look to the golden
arch when you're hiring your staff.
Suzie Latchford: They were taught to
organize and, and you know, like I've
worked in the restaurant business and
serving industry as well and it does
teach you like, you know, you have to
have a process and you know, you're
picking up a plate off the table.
And there's another plate there, or a
glass or something else on another table,
and you have room to take that too.
Then you do it.
Yeah.
Right.
And it, it's so yes, having the key people
that are engaged in what we're doing
and, and love it for the same reasons
you do, which isn't always easy to find.
Like that's so important
in, in the delegating real.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do?
This is, this is a, an another thing
which I think a lot of us face is okay.
It is very easy to say, well,
when I was young, we worked harder
than the current generation.
And of course I heard the previous
generation to me saying that, but
I do feel that there's a fragility
and a lower resilience in general
in the current young person.
They, they, I, it is something
to do with social media.
It's something to do with, it really is
feeling that solutions can come really
fast when actually they, they can't
and you have to, you know, whatever.
I, I find it, it is definitely
getting harder to find the
younger people who can do this.
I mean, McDonald's must be finding this
too, but yet they seem to be thriving.
Okay.
Yeah.
Where do you, and I'm used to thinking
of Canadians as very hardworking
people because, you know, in a
very hardworking period of my life,
I was living in Canada and Yeah.
Surrounded by hardworking Canadians,
you know, like your husband and you.
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what are
you doing in terms of, yeah.
Trying to find those people
who still have that, that grit.
Suzie Latchford: We, we haven't actually
looked, they've come, which is so, like,
as I said, oh, and we've gone through
many, we've gone through many, many staff
changes, and in nutshell, they're hard to
find and they're hard to keep because you
know, your pay scale isn't always as high.
Especially like, I, I'm the
biggest volunteer ever Yeah.
In this organization.
People have to be paid and, and, you
know, not always knowing if you can
afford that within your organization.
But then now I'm on this train where I'm
just going to write as many grants as I
can and and then use that as a model for
the, for the years coming, I would always.
Pass grants to somebody else and not
always, just in the last couple of
years and we weren't getting enough in.
Okay.
So now, you know, I'm, I'm back on that.
And where does
Rupert Isaacson: one look for, for
grants in Canada or in Ontario?
Suzie Latchford: Well, like
we, we have a number that will
come right from our community.
So applying for those ones and
getting your, they're not always
like a huge amount, but, and then
they're, now, now with ai, it's a
lot easier to find the, the ones that
you couldn't necessarily find before.
Rupert Isaacson: Are there grants
that come from government in Canada?
Suzie Latchford: There are grants
that come from government, but we are
not government funded, so they would
have to be like the, on the Ontario
Trillium Foundation or the Trillium
Foundation is a big government one.
That, and there's other ones available
that come up, but depending on
what kind of organization you
are and whether your mandate fits
those, those grants or another.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
But you find that you can
actually fund yourself to a large
degree through grant writing.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And, and, and finally, we're
at a point where, you know, we
could make a business plan now.
Yes.
You kind of know will I
might over the winter.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I feel, as,
you know, we're sort of approaching
the, the two hour mark here.
It, it's really what I love is
that this conversation did not go
where I expected it to go, but I
went where I think it needs to go.
Mm-hmm.
Which is that we have to, we do have to
realize that we are the client as
well as the, we are the service user
as well as the service provider.
Suzie Latchford: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And perhaps,
perhaps the thing about the burnout
thing is it keeps you honest.
Right?
It keeps you from getting into dynamic
that, oh, I am the therapist, I am the
the one who has it all, you know together,
and you are the one who needs help.
You know?
And when you find just like, Nope.
Yeah know
I can't imagine it can do anything,
but make it make you better
at what you do, Susie, because
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Clearly, you
know, heal with horses has just.
Gone from success to success.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: And we
can't always measure.
And that's another thing I've had to
come to terms with is I, it's hard not to
measure success in a society that measures
monetary financial as being successful.
Yeah.
Like it's only successful if
you can pay yourself lots of
money and things like that.
So for me, it's coming to terms
with starting something that is very
successful and has helped hundreds
and thousands of people and animals.
And not to always, I'm okay with it, but
it's like when I see people looking back
at me, you know how you do that kinda,
or talking to somebody or you've met
somebody and you kind of like see them.
Like, what are they seeing when
they're looking back at me?
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
they see anything other than just
a self-actualized woman who
has made a great go of doing
a business that heals people?
I mean, I, I can't imagine that
anyone looks at you through any kind
of critical eye for saying, well,
you should be making the same money
that a lawyer makes or something.
I,
Suzie Latchford: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
Do you really think that people
are judging you like that?
Suzie Latchford: I don't,
no, not necessarily.
I guess it's my own judgment.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: you're right.
It's my own judgment.
I would like to be able to contribute
more financially to our home and our,
but I've just done it in a different way.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, here is a,
here's a little exercise we could
go through, because I bet you that
you are not the only person running
a program who has this feeling.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So bear with me here.
Okay.
I know that what I'm about to say is
gonna make you have a knee jerk reaction.
So I'm not gonna tell you to
not have the kneejerk reaction.
I just want you to notice that
kneejerk reaction and see if
you can not stay there too long.
Right?
So have it, but then go kind of,
oh, well there's that kneejerk
reaction that's, you know, part of
my conditioning, but I don't, okay.
What's my next thought?
Let's just go.
So, so what if, and I want all you
people who are listening and watching
this to perhaps do this with us.
What if
enormous financial success
is about to come
through?
Doing what you do or through
something completely unexpected.
It could come from either and to just
say, I am open to the possibility
that this could be the case.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And
just try that thought on.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you don't have
to think, well, how would that be?
What can I do?
Or do I need to have some, you know,
online program or, or, so just I'm open
to a feeling of absolute financial ease
from whatever source.
And now we take it to the next level,
which is, does that, do you feel a
slight sense of discomfort in the base
of your throat as we talk about this
or in your chest somewhere or,
Suzie Latchford: yeah,
maybe a little in my
Rupert Isaacson: approach.
Yeah.
Okay.
That would be normal, right?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So I want to now dive into
that discomfort for about.
Six seconds, it's not much.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
What I want you to do is think, well,
but how on earth can that happen, Rupert?
How can I resolve my financial quandary
and still deliver what I do?
And as you ask that question, I
want you to breathe in through your
nose and we're gonna hold it till
it gets a little bit uncomfortable.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I'll do
something like that with my hand.
Mm-hmm.
And I want you to let it go.
Give it to God.
We'd like a shout a roar.
I'll do it along with you.
'cause it's always a good thing to do.
Okay.
So, so sorry listeners, this is
gonna startle you in a moment.
And then we just give it to God and let
it go and let the universe sort it out.
All right.
So first thing, now, feel that
discomfort at the base of your throat.
Now you're gonna breathe in through the
nose and really hold that question till
it feels like you kind of want to cry.
So here we go.
Okay.
It's taken care of.
Suzie Latchford: It's
actually, somebody showed me
Rupert Isaacson: that one a
while ago and it, it's worked.
It's really worked.
Suzie Latchford: It's one thing that
I do believe when I'm feeling like
unsuccessful or why do I keep doing this?
Or I just wanna throw in
the white flag, like yeah.
Or so.
But I always know that
the universe
will provide and
for whatever reason going through the
difficulties and the challenges are all
part of it's all part of the work and.
I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't
have the support from, from Spirit
or the universe or, or what have you.
So they, it has provided, I mean,
it's not like we haven't gotten a
lot of what we need to make something
like this successful when starting
it on a thin with absolutely no plan.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: So, but thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well, I'm grateful.
I'm grateful that we
had this conversation.
I'm grateful to you not just for the work
you do, but you know, for the, for the,
for for, for putting a spotlight
on this very, very real
Suzie Latchford: Well, there's
Rupert Isaacson: of what we do.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
A very big human aspect in what we do as
humans and, and like that's so important
to, to talk about what we did today.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it is,
Suzie Latchford: because
it's not talked about enough.
It's sometimes only talked about, you
know, the good things and the positive
things about all the lives you felt change
and bring positivity to, but it does come
as at an expense to yourself sometimes,
you know, that's real and that's reality.
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like the
listeners and, and viewers, could
you, if you, if you're gonna comment
perhaps below, if you say watching
this on YouTube or so, tell us.
What your challenges have
been with this work and what
you've done to mitigate them.
'cause I think we, we need a
sort of technology bank of this.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, for sure.
We want this feel to expand.
It has to, the need
has never been greater.
So as the new generation come
in, we need to prepare them.
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So please do,
do what Susie has done and,
and share your experience.
Susie, it's been so
brave and honest of you.
I have so much respect for you.
Really.
I, I, I, I, I cannot quite put into
words how humbled I feel by your
absolute candor here and, and, and yeah.
The bravery it takes to come on
a, a public forum and really talk
completely real but from a place
of love, you know, it, it's, I,
I'm just very grateful to you.
Thank you.
Suzie Latchford: Well, thank you, Rupert.
I'm, I'm glad we could share this.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, likewise.
And I, I hope we can cross paths
also with Ron, you know, perhaps, you
know, sooner than the next 15 years.
Maybe we need to do a gig.
Maybe we need to do a, a, a a clinic or
a workshop or something at yours again.
Yeah.
Should, should we, should we
figure that out for next year?
Maybe.
Suzie Latchford: Hundred percent.
I would love that.
Rupert Isaacson: It's been so
long since I was in Canada.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'd love to.
Suzie Latchford: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And again, my
friend, just thank you so much.
Truly, truly, truly you've, you've
actually given me strength by
talking about this, so thank you.
Suzie Latchford: Gotten a lot myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Suzie Latchford: From this.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
I'll let you go and introvert now.
Okay.
Oh, before we haven't even gone.
Your, how do people find you
on the web and all that stuff?
Oh, yeah.
Donate and all of that.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Heal with horses.ca,
Rupert Isaacson: heal with horses.ca
Suzie Latchford: our website.
We're on Facebook, Instagram what is
our Instagram deal with Horses Farm.
I think
Rupert Isaacson: you, like me, you
don't even know your Instagram.
Is that I'm terrible that way.
Suzie Latchford: Don't wanna do that part.
Rupert Isaacson: And is there a donate
button on the on, on the heel with horses?
Suzie Latchford: There is, yeah.
All right,
Rupert Isaacson: lads, you heard that?
Donate money Please.
Now to heel with Horses.
They're doing stellar
work out there in Ontario.
And design Need
Suzie Latchford: as need.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Okay.
Until the next time.
Suzie Latchford: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.
Suzie Latchford: Bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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