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Perfect for gardening enthusiasts at any level, this podcast is your companion to cultivating success and beauty in your own backyard or flower patch. Hosted by Jane Westoby from Fuchsia Blooms Florist and The Hampshire Seed Company.
Each episode is a treasure trove of practical tips, expert advice, and insider flower farming guides designed to help you sow and grow with confidence and harvest with pride. Whether you’re dreaming of rows of neat vegetables or cutting flowers for bouquets all year round, we’ll walk you through every step.
Let’s grow together!
Jane Westoby (00:00)
just start when we're ready. welcome, Rainy, to the podcast today. I'm really, really excited to talk to you today because I've tried to grow willow, but not in a serious way. So it would be really great to get some hints and tips from you today. And I've also done some willow weaving. So a very good friend of mine is a really great willow weaver.
Rainy (00:02)
Okay.
Jane Westoby (00:26)
And she's shown me a few little bits and pieces, but I'm just so rubbish at it. So I would really like some hints and tips. And I'm sure my listeners would too, because you, I think you're going to maybe become my expert in all things Willow going forward. So that would be great. So do want to just share some of your journey of your small holding and what inspired you to start Cherry Tree Farm?
Rainy (00:42)
and
Jane Westoby (00:57)
All those years ago.
Rainy (01:00)
Excuse me, yes, thank you for asking me on first of all. I'm at Rainy Cherry Tree Flower Farm, which is in Bolton, about 10 miles north of Manchester. And we bought the house 25 years ago when we got married and next door was a farm and still is. And after we'd lived here for about two years, I pestered the farmer to sell me a bit of land, it's only half an acre. Because at the time,
I was very keen on self-sufficiency. I had the John Seymour Self-Sufficiency book, that was my little bible. Hugh Fernley Whittingstall had his River Cottage series on the television and that was my dream. I wanted to have some animals, grow some vegetables and some fruit.
Jane Westoby (01:51)
You wanted to live the dream, hey?
Rainy (01:53)
absolutely. Yes, bring the children up in,
know, bare feet outside. Everyone muddy, everyone growing.
Jane Westoby (02:03)
Yeah, what was
that program in the 70s and 80s where they grew chickens? The Good Life. It's a good life. Yeah. Yes, it sounds familiar.
Rainy (02:08)
that was the good life. yes, that's been people have referred that to me many times. Well.
We loved it. There was never any intention of this piece of land being income generating in any way. This was just for family. When we bought it, absolutely. And when we were looking for a house when we got married, the only two criteria were that we had chimneys and space for chickens. And we got both. not a big... Yes, we were.
Jane Westoby (02:28)
It was a lifestyle.
Yeah.
You were lucky!
Rainy (02:47)
It's not a big house by any means, little stone cottage, but we have now got the land attached. But the land that we bought is not flat, it dips in the middle and where it dips it's very wet. So back then you couldn't just Google what to do, so various research led me to a man called Walter Lloyd in the Lake District who's a real character, well worth Googling.
and he was growing willow. So I bought some willow from him and he recommended a book which I also bought and he sent me in the post. I'd send a cheque then, no online banking. He sent me a book with various photocopied notes in and he was so passionate about willow and told me all these things about it that I hadn't given the first thought to uses and that was it.
Jane Westoby (03:30)
Wow.
Rainy (03:45)
We planted the willow and I've been in love with it ever since.
Jane Westoby (03:50)
Wow, so I was going to ask you about the challenges that you faced when you established the farm, but really your challenges were the reason why you established the willow farming, wasn't it?
Rainy (03:51)
Cough cough
Kind of, I mean the farm, we didn't actually run, I call it a farm, we didn't actually run it as a business until Covid because you know I had other jobs and unlike many other flower farmers I had no idea flower farming existed, I didn't know the online flower farming gurus etc but when Covid hit I decided right
Jane Westoby (04:13)
Okay.
Rainy (04:31)
I want the land to make me some money in some way, you know, as an income. So I can't remember what I was reading, but it said that the largest income per square meter comes from growing flowers. And I thought, I can grow flowers. And that was it. So the Willow at that point, although I'd been growing it, you know, for many years, and I'd been running wreath workshops at Christmas for, well, I don't know, I've been doing that for about 12 years now.
Jane Westoby (04:34)
you
Rainy (05:01)
The flower side of it came much later.
Jane Westoby (05:05)
Okay,
okay, so the willow came first and then the actual flower farming came a little bit further down the line. Okay, so you do, you're chemical free, aren't you? Okay, so what do you use on your farm then? What kind of nutrition do you use?
Rainy (05:08)
yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely, always have been.
I'm quite a cynical character, I've been told. And I think so many things are marketed to us and we're told, you need this because your soil is missing that, you need that. And I really think, unless I see a problem, I don't do anything about it. But I've always had this...
I've always had this thought and it comes from going back to John Seymour, the small holder book guy. One of his things was that nothing should leave the farm. So I've always worked on the basis that if it grows here, it stays here. So nothing ever goes in a brown bin or anything like that. At the end of...
The growing life of whatever plant it is, it's chopped and dropped in the ground. I don't pull things out by the roots. Everything and anything is composted. The only thing I really bring in is woodchip, which is generally free. There is a marvellous website called Arb Talk, which you can register on for tree surgeons. If they need to go into their woodchip, they can just drop it with you.
Jane Westoby (06:45)
that's a fantastic resource.
I will put the link in the show notes for that because I get free woodchip as well, but we have a lot of trees here on our land and we have someone who comes in and helps us to chop them down because some of them are so big we can't do it ourselves. And that guy actually brings us because we've made a good relationship with him. We said to him, yeah, if ever you're in the area and you're chopping a tree down.
Rainy (07:02)
Yeah.
Jane Westoby (07:10)
give us a call, let us know and you can bring us the woodchip because we'll happily take it. So, and it is free. I know a lot of allotments get it for free as well, but as individuals, sometimes it can be quite difficult to find someone to actually bring you free woodchip, but it is free. I mean, really no one should be paying for it because you can get it free. So I will find that link and I will put it in the show notes so that other people can link to that as well. Thank you. That's a fantastic resource.
Rainy (07:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I think there's a lot of, there's a marvellous book, I can't remember the title of it but it's by Ben Raskin and it is all about woodchip. Sounds really geeky but for anyone who grows it's amazing because it busts all those myths, you know, people say you can't put woodchip on it will lock up nitrogen, blah de blah, it's an amazing resource.
Jane Westoby (07:49)
wow. Yeah.
Rainy (08:04)
Another person who does amazing things with woodchip is Ian Tolhurst from Tolhurst Organics. Have a look at what he does with it.
Jane Westoby (08:12)
Okay,
I'll try and find both of those people as well and I'll try and find their best website and put that in the show notes too and then everyone can have a read up.
Rainy (08:19)
Yeah, but it's,
it's, woodchip is amazing stuff. I leave it in big piles, fresh, I'll put it on paths and things. Otherwise it's left in a mountain, left to compost for about 18 months. The chickens have access to it. And at the end, you can grow in that, that material. You know, it's, you might want to sift the lumps out, but you're left with a material that you can actually sow seeds into. And it was free.
Jane Westoby (08:40)
Yeah.
Okay, so
you've got me intrigued now as well about the chickens because I'm such a chicken fan and I would love to get chickens. I'm so busy here, like really super duper busy. So we could probably do a separate session sometime just on chickens. We're here to talk about flowers and willow today. so what else do you have on your farm? So, you you've mentioned quite a few things there. So what do you have there?
Rainy (09:04)
absolutely.
All I have here is a few chickens, the willow and the flower beds.
Jane Westoby (09:21)
I love
the way you say all I have here. It's a huge amount. It really is.
Rainy (09:24)
Well,
it's not acres and acres like some people have, but I do try and make the most of the space that I have. I don't have a polytunnel, so I only have a short season. I'm in the northwest of England and I'm on solid clay with about 50 centimeters of beautiful loam on top of it because the land I bought was grazing land, so it's had cows and sheep on it for centuries.
Yes, yes, hence that not throwing chemicals all over it doesn't need it. But, excuse me, I don't have a polytunnel and very early on, years and years ago before I even thought about selling flowers, tulips never have worked for me. So I made a decision early on not to grow tulips.
Jane Westoby (09:53)
So nice and fertile. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rainy (10:20)
They're quite a low return unless you're growing them in vast numbers. So because I don't have a polytunnel and my season is short, I just concentrate now on main season flowers. So I don't go for, you know, I don't try to grow very early or very late. I don't extend the season with a polytunnel.
Jane Westoby (10:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So
when does your season really kick off where you are then for flowers we're talking?
Rainy (10:43)
I don't
really have flowers until well into June and really it depends. I I have fragrant Narcissi in the spring. I do do those and it's a nice way for customers to keep in touch. But other than that, and I don't grow for weddings so I don't have any pressure of, there's a May wedding, I need to grow this. I just don't. I've done a few weddings, but it's very much a case of
Jane Westoby (10:47)
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Rainy (11:12)
This is what I have. This is what you can have in your bouquet. I don't like this dress. Yes. Yes.
Jane Westoby (11:17)
Yeah, and we all know how picky brides can be that they want a certain
color and they want a certain shade of that bloom to match their bridesmaid dresses and it can get tricky. Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
Rainy (11:28)
Yes and there
is I think people who don't grow underestimate the stress. If you've had a bride and she wants certain flowers this is a huge day in the life of the people getting married and there is huge pressure on you to perform as it were and you know there's so many things outside of your control and I've decided that's not for me.
Jane Westoby (11:42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
I can, and I can absolutely vouch for that 100%, the stress of not having that one flower that you know that that bride wants because she told you, this was my grandma's favorite flower and she died three years ago. And you just think, my God, if I can't get you this flower, I'm gonna ruin your whole day. And it is so stressful. It is crazy. So I'd say,
Rainy (12:09)
Yep.
Yeah.
Jane Westoby (12:22)
Yeah, if there's anyone out there who is thinking about being a flower farmer and they do want to supply for weddings, if you're not good with stress, then weddings are not the best place to start. Maybe daily bouquets are a good place to start. Yeah, absolutely.
Rainy (12:38)
Yes, that's very
much, excuse me, what I do now is once the season, probably in May, I kind of open, as it were, that sounds rather grand, but my workshop and the entrance to my field are open on Saturday mornings, so people can come, buy whatever flowers I have. I also sell some, you know, if I've got excess plants, I sell those potted.
potted willows I sell, sweet peas with this, supports, et cetera. So I have a kind of very small pop-up shop area. So any flowers I have are sold there.
Jane Westoby (13:17)
Yeah.
Okay, but that sounds lovely because it's all local, you're organic, I'm guessing you've got customers coming back year after year as well.
Rainy (13:29)
Yes and it's funny I had a conversation well I've had a few conversations since the since meeting up with lots of other flower farmers recently and at the flowers from the farm conference yes.
Jane Westoby (13:40)
Was this at the flower farmers conference? Yeah, so
if anybody doesn't know, for anyone listening, if you are a flower farmer, then you can join Flowers from the Farm, and I'll pop the link in the show notes to that as well. You can join Flowers from the Farm and link up with lots of other flower farmers around the country and in your area. And it's a great resource also for customers to find a florist.
in their local area as well. So you can just go onto the website, type in where you want to send flowers and the website will give you all of the local florists belonging to flowers from the farm on the website. that's, yeah, that's a really good resource. And we had a conference recently, which was, I'm thinking it was maybe two weeks ago. It was probably around that, wasn't it? And that's where we met as well, which is why we're now doing the, yeah. So this is why we're now doing this podcast.
Rainy (14:29)
Yeah it will have been yeah. Yes, yes selling your wonderful seeds yes.
Jane Westoby (14:38)
So yeah, so you were saying you've been speaking to some flower farmers at the conference.
Rainy (14:43)
Yes, and because I've never grown with chemicals and I don't grow with chemicals for my own conscience, it's never been a business decision and I was talking to somebody and I think one of the speakers was talking and we were talking about slugs and how devastating they were last year, biblical proportions and somebody said, well just use pellets.
Jane Westoby (15:07)
Hmm.
Rainy (15:12)
and I said I don't use chemicals. Well, you can get some, doesn't matter, you you can kind of thing work around the rules. And it struck me that I don't grow, I don't grow without chemicals to follow any particular guidelines. That's, you know, I grow like that because that's the way I want to. And I thought everyone else did the same and it's clearly not the case. Some people only grow.
Jane Westoby (15:21)
Thanks.
Rainy (15:41)
like that because they want to be able to tell the customers that they grow without chemicals and because it was something very that I was always very passionate about I presumed my customers would always be passionate about that as well and some are but it struck me recently that some really don't care they just want some nice flowers that they buy locally and that's fine and it is I mean
Jane Westoby (15:47)
Yeah.
Rainy (16:11)
Buying things locally is also very important to me. I always try to source any materials as close to home as possible. But that seems to be something that people are very...
that they seem to care much more about lately is that things are made locally. I think people, it's easier to understand the impact on the local economy. know, if someone's growing locally, customers are paying locally that money goes back into the local community. They seem to care much more about that rather than the long-term effects of any chemicals that you might be using on the soil.
Jane Westoby (16:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think maybe they can't see those long-term effects, so it's not tangible for them. Whereas the cash flowing around the local area seems to be maybe a little bit more tangible. It's a shame, but I think as long as we can educate, I think that will always help. But I think last year's slug population was, I mean, it was completely out of control, completely. And I can...
Rainy (16:53)
Yes.
Yeah.
Jane Westoby (17:17)
I can understand why someone would put slug pellets down in a year like that. I absolutely can because it was devastating to sow seeds and then three days later come out and be like, well, where are my seedlings? They were here three days ago. They've now all gone, every single one of them. So I kind of get it. I do understand it and it's difficult. It's really difficult.
Rainy (17:26)
yeah.
Yeah, they're gone.
And I don't
have a problem as such with anybody that grows using techniques different to mine. know, if people use chemicals, that's fine. So long as there's no misleading statements being made or, know, as long as people are transparent, I'm fine with that. Each to their own.
Jane Westoby (17:52)
Hmm.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah. And I
think probably understanding the ecosystem in a garden is really, really important as well. There's a book called The Living Jigsaw, which is a really great book. I'll put a link to it if I can into the show notes. And it really describes the ecosystem in a garden and how it all works together. And when I read that book, something really made sense to me because
In my garden at the time, I had a lot of black fly, like so much of it, and I just couldn't get rid of it. And when I read the book was when I realized, hang on a minute, it's because of all of the ants. My garden was also full of ants' nests everywhere, and I could not get rid of them.
and the ants were farming the black fly and then the black fly were then devastating my crops in my garden. So actually the trick wasn't necessarily to get rid of the black fly, it was to deal with the ants in the first place to then not farm the black fly. So I think just understanding some of these ecosystems and understanding what eats what, what farms what, what needs what.
Rainy (18:54)
flat fly.
Yeah.
Jane Westoby (19:22)
how they're all linked. Once you start to understand some of that, you start to understand actually what do you need in your garden? And one thing I do now, and I tried to do then and was very unsuccessful is to feed the birds. So I used it and if one of my neighbors is listening, I don't know if I ever told them this, but the birds would sit in their pear tree in their garden.
and I literally one day counted over 50 birds in their pear tree all waiting for their bird feeder. So I thought, brilliant, I'm gonna put a bird feeder in my garden and then I will get lots of birds in my garden too. Yeah, no, absolutely not. They did not wanna come in my garden. They only wanted to go in her garden. So when I moved to my new house, I put lots of bird feeders out and it's working, it's working. And those birds are gonna be eating all of those pests and all of those creatures in my garden.
Rainy (20:09)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Jane Westoby (20:17)
I don't tend to use chemicals. don't spray anything because I really don't need to because I'm looking at my ecosystem and at what's going to eat what. So I think, yeah, if someone can do that, that's the first port of call rather than for me reaching for the chemicals, I suppose.
Rainy (20:33)
Yeah.
that's it's I've never heard it brought up before and you know it might be some people don't like it but I'm a Christian and it's the way I treat the land I like to think well this is the way the world was made to work without the interference of man-made chemicals etc so like you're saying with the birds the birds eat the ants the ants don't farm there's a big circle of life and
Jane Westoby (21:04)
Yeah.
Rainy (21:05)
I know we live in modern day society and things interfere, but if we can try and preserve that circle, then everything should work together. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, if we kind of let Mother Nature do her thing as much as we can, then all will be well.
Jane Westoby (21:14)
Yeah, Mother Nature actually looked after it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Yeah, okay, so let's talk about willow for a little bit. So you've been growing willow essentially since the farm started, roughly. So has it evolved over the years? Have you grown more willow, more species? What's been going on?
Rainy (21:30)
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
yes,
I started, it was about 2006 when the first willow arrived and that was a variety called Salix Viminalis, which is probably my favourite willow. It's a beast of a willow, but it has so many different uses. It grows voraciously. It's not invasive. It just is a strong grower. In one year, I can expect rods of 12 foot long in one year.
Jane Westoby (22:15)
Wow.
Rainy (22:17)
And that willow, it's quite a chunky willow. It's great for making wreaths with. You'd only need about four rods. A rod is a stem, if you like. You'd only need about four to make a good strong.
Jane Westoby (22:31)
Yeah, we'll talk
about rods and barrels and things in a minute because, that's a whole other minefield.
Rainy (22:38)
Yeah, so
Salix Feminalis is good for making wreaths but we've used it over the years for so many other things. We've allowed it to grow and after about four years you've got thickness for logs, so biofuel, we've cut it for logs for the fire. We've made hedges, we've made living structures for the children, we've made
fed the sheep with it. There's no end. It can be used as a to make willow beds to filter water. Salix verminalis also apparently absorbs heavy metals and although we don't have that problem here, it's used on contaminated land because it absorbs the, I think it's cadmium or something like that, absorbs from the soil.
It can be used as we've done around waterways to stop the water from being eroded as the water moves. It's just an amazing material and it's you don't need to I've never put fertilizer on my willows.
and at the end of its life if you've made something from it, goes in the compost or the fire. It needs no energy input to use it apart from your physical bodily energy. It's just an amazing material. And that was the first one I ever grew and that's we still grow that now.
Jane Westoby (24:08)
Okay,
so how many varieties do you have there? Do you know?
Rainy (24:12)
I probably grow about 14 varieties that I know the names of and they've been chosen for different things. colour, catkins, thickness, height for different uses. One because I just like the name of it. But I've no intention of collecting Willow varieties.
Jane Westoby (24:38)
Okay.
Rainy (24:40)
There might be one or two that I might possibly get but I think I'm at my variety limit and there are over 400 varieties, millions probably of willow. They hybridize readily and of many of the willows that are available there's no discernible difference to them. The differences are anatomical if you like. It will be in the structure of the catkins or whatever so...
Jane Westoby (24:46)
Okay.
Wow.
Rainy (25:09)
to me, unless you have, no, unless you're going for the collection or something, you know, the national collection, you don't really need loads and loads of varieties, no.
Jane Westoby (25:10)
You don't need that many. Yeah. Okay.
Okay, yeah.
You don't need that many. Okay.
So what's your favorite color? What's your favorite variety for color?
Rainy (25:25)
Depends what colour you're going for. Salix Alba Scarlet, that's quite popular one for colour. It has a yellowy stem with a red tip and as well as growing it for weaving with or floristry, you can also allow it to become shrubby and in the winter it'll have great colour. So that's commonly the one that's grown for colour.
It's not a particular favourite of mine for weaving with, some people it is, but one of the important things with willow and so many people say, which ones would you recommend for me? You really need to know what you want to do with it first because as well as coming in different colours willows grow to different heights, they grow to different stem thicknesses, have catkins arrive at different times of the year.
So, you know, if you wanted to make fine little baskets, don't grow Salix Feminalis, you know, and if you want to make far too thick, far too thick, if you want to make chunky willow reeds, then you wouldn't grow Kohu Blue, for example, because it's a fine rod and it doesn't grow very tall. So it's not really big enough to make reeds from. So you need to know what you want it to do.
Jane Westoby (26:33)
because the stems are gonna be too thick.
Okay.
Rainy (26:55)
before you choose the variety. Willow is not just Willow.
Jane Westoby (26:56)
Yeah, okay.
So you need to do your research. Yeah.
Rainy (27:01)
Yeah, well
at least know what you want it for. Because people say, well I'd like it to be a windbreak and perhaps make some wreaths from it and cut some catkins in the spring. And there are some varieties that you can do everything with, like Black Mall is a good one.
Jane Westoby (27:17)
Okay.
Okay, so that's a good all-rounder. Okay.
Rainy (27:23)
Yeah, yeah,
but know what you want it to do.
and choose the variety that suits.
Jane Westoby (27:31)
Yeah, okay. So is there a variety that is really good for catkins, let's say then. So if we've got someone who's a farmer florist that literally doesn't necessarily want to do weaving, but wants it for the catkins.
Rainy (27:44)
The most well-known catkin is that people know as pussy willow actually comes from goat willow, which is Salix capria. It's a wild willow and it's not something I... Well, there is one that's planted itself in my front garden, but I don't grow it because it's absolutely no use to me for weaving with. It's very shrubby. The wood is very brittle.
But if you only wanted it for catkins, that's probably the most reliable source. But then you've got the pretty colors like the Mount Aesos and the Eugeniae, which will give you the pink catkins. I've just planted.
Jane Westoby (28:26)
Yeah, I'm always drawn to
those ones and I've always wanted to grow them and I never have. And now what you've said to me today about willow liking wet, the bottom of my garden is so wet that there's not a lot that will grow down there apart from ferns. So actually I think I'm going to be buying some willow for down the bottom of my garden where it's really wet because I think that the willow will do well.
Rainy (28:49)
Yeah.
Willow doesn't like to be, it likes wet ground. It doesn't like to be permanently underwater. So if your field is permanently flooded, no, it won't like that. Yeah. Occasional flooding, it will cope with that, no problem. But it does also need to be in the sun. So if your damp patch is very shaded, willow will grow there, but it won't thrive.
Jane Westoby (29:04)
no, in the summer it will dry out, so yeah, okay. Yeah.
Okay, I need to put it on the sunny side. Okay.
Rainy (29:22)
So damp soil in full sun. Yeah,
give it some sunshine. Yeah. It does not like to be dry. So if you have a very free draining soil, willow's probably not the choice for you. Yeah.
Jane Westoby (29:37)
Right, okay, so that's probably a really good
point for us to talk about some of the biggest mistakes that people do make with Willow. So I'd say probably then putting it in conditions that aren't right for it would be one.
Rainy (29:52)
Yes, I've been asked numerous times people have, you know, they might say I have a small woodland and I'd like to plant willows. Well, if it's a broadleaf woodland, that means in the summer it will be very shady. Willows will not be very happy in there. It's not a woodland tree. Nice open aspects, plenty of sun in a...
patch where you can't really grow much else because it's damp. Near water is a good idea. If you try to plant willow in a very free draining soil, you will spend the rest of your life watering it. And one of the beauties of willow is it's very easy to grow. So you don't want to be putting it where it doesn't want to grow and then having to
Jane Westoby (30:39)
which is not what you want to do.
Rainy (30:49)
Spend all your time trying to maintain it. So open aspect, moist soil. That's all it asks.
Jane Westoby (30:56)
Okay,
so how would you plant willow then? What would you do as you say it's super easy to grow?
Rainy (31:07)
Willow, the easiest way to plant willow is from a cutting. So you're at a slightly thicker than a pencil, perhaps about 20, 30 centimetres. Make sure the buds are pointing. It will have buds, alternate buds on either side of the stem. Make sure they're pointing upwards. That's when you look, it's obvious on all of them and just push it into the ground. If your ground is very hard and
Jane Westoby (31:31)
And that's it.
Rainy (31:36)
Planting season is now, so December through to, I don't know, February, March, depends as long as it's still damp and cool. Literally push it into the ground. If your ground is hard, and I don't mean frozen, but if your ground is very hard, you need to use something to make a hole before you push it in. I've never had to do that, but you don't want to use the stem itself to force a hole because you're going to damage it.
Jane Westoby (31:42)
Mm-hmm.
Rainy (32:04)
but literally push it into the ground, it will grow. In fact, if you leave it lying sideways on the ground, it will grow numerous roots from the side of the stem. It will grow sideways and you'll get numerous.
Jane Westoby (32:18)
Wow, so it's that,
it's literally that easy. You cut us to them and shove it in the ground and it will, and how long do you think it, how long does it take to root?
Rainy (32:22)
yes, shove it in the ground.
It seems like almost instantaneous roots come very quickly. You can see how fast by if you leave a willow cutting in a jar of water, you'll see the roots appear very quickly within a week probably.
Jane Westoby (32:43)
So is that
another method someone could use if they weren't quite sure? Would it be good to put them in water or not?
Rainy (32:49)
It's not one I'd recommend because the roots are fairly brittle and if you if you put the stem in water and get water roots when you push that into the ground they will snap off so you're setting it back. The only way that would be okay is if you were going to dig a hole slightly put the cutting in and back.
Jane Westoby (33:03)
Okay.
Rainy (33:14)
fill with loose soil so that those roots are kept intact. What is important is, while it establishes, is that you get rid of any weed competition. You only really need it for the first couple of years because after that, the leaf fall from the willow becomes its own mulch and it will then keep weeds at bay itself. But to start with, you're going to need to either put a weed membrane down or a thick bed of woodchip.
Jane Westoby (33:15)
Okay.
Rainy (33:44)
cardboard or whatever but you there's no point in planting you know a 20 centimeter cutting in a field that's got 15 centimeters of grass around it because that grass will compete for light it will compete for moisture and the the willow may struggle.
Jane Westoby (34:03)
Yeah, okay, so a nice weeded patch is the best. Okay, so...
Rainy (34:07)
Yes. Yeah.
Also,
you rather than planting, if you block plant willow, so rather than planting one over there, one over there, one, plant them together, fairly close together. So, know, 10 inches, 20, 20 to 30 centimeters together. It makes the rods compete for light. They will grow taller, they will grow finer. So again, depending on the variety.
Jane Westoby (34:31)
Mm-hmm.
you'd suggest
growing them quite close together really? Yeah. Okay.
Rainy (34:44)
Yes, yeah.
What is really important, if you want to grow willow for the rods, for the stems, for whatever you want to use them for, you have to cut that willow back every winter. If you don't, those stems from the previous year will get branchy and then the next year they'll get branchier, you'll end up with a shrub and you'll also with some of the varieties end up with an enormous tree.
So it's important where you plant them, how you're going to manage them.
Jane Westoby (35:14)
Okay.
Okay so it's important to harvest so that was going to be my next question in terms of when do you actually harvest the willow for use?
Rainy (35:23)
Yes.
It depends on the weather but it's usually between December and February it's when the leaves have dropped. Willow is a deciduous tree so the leaves fall in winter. Once the leaves have fallen it's a sign that the sap has gone down the stem you can cut them and they'll be fine. If you cut the willow too early so if you're cutting it trying to get ahead with reeds and you're cutting it in October
while it's still possibly got quite a lot of leaves on, you'll find the tip of the stems are soft. And when you cut them back, those, the soft ends will go black and kind of dry off and snap. So you lose some of the length of your willow. Whereas if you've waited for the leaves to drop, that tip has already hardened and you've got the full length of the rod to use.
Jane Westoby (36:24)
Okay, so, okay, so if I'm understanding right, if I was to grow some willow this year, let's say I was to put it in the ground now, I wouldn't actually be able to use that willow growth for this year's Christmas wreaths. I would only be able to use it for next year's Christmas wreaths because I wouldn't be able to cut it in October time.
Rainy (36:48)
Yes, lots of people do. I don't now. If I'm cutting for Christmas, it depends on the weather as well. we've had, you know, if it's cold in November, December, then you can cut them ready for Christmas. And they do look, the fresh willow looks very different to willow that you've dried and rehydrated in order to use.
Jane Westoby (36:50)
Okay.
Okay.
Rainy (37:17)
Fresh willow is very bright. The colors are nice. It can be shiny. And part of me thinks that can be a waste if you're going to cover that wreath in a full coat of foliage. If you're going to leave the wreath partially on view, then fresh willow is lovely. So I'm not saying you can't harvest it then. It's just.
Jane Westoby (37:28)
Yeah.
So you could.
Rainy (37:46)
Yes, could. yeah, absolutely you could and lots of people
Jane Westoby (37:47)
You could. Okay. Okay.
Rainy (37:49)
do. I choose not to for various reasons.
Jane Westoby (37:52)
Okay, so you would save yours for the following
year and you would dry it out and you would hydrate it. Okay.
Rainy (37:57)
Yes, I don't tend
to cut mine till January, February.
Jane Westoby (38:00)
Okay
and then how long does it last for? it... so if I have some willow, this is one of those I have a friend who has yeah, some willow who's it's a few years old now, it's not been hydrated, it's just been sitting there drying, how long could I expect it to last?
Rainy (38:09)
Yeah.
Fine, if it's been kept somewhere that's not damp, if you keep willow somewhere that's, this is dried willow we're talking about, if you've kept it somewhere that's a bit damp, musty, know, no air, it can get mould. Surface mould doesn't really matter, you can brush it off, but it can rot. But if it's been kept somewhere dry, pretty much it will last indefinitely. Yeah, just rehydrate it and crack on.
Jane Westoby (38:27)
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, all right, so I can rehydrate that
willow that I've had for a few years. Okay. Okay, okay, so that's good. I'm glad we've managed to clear that one up because I have, I do have some quite old willow that I've been wondering, can I still use that or not? So that's good now. So this is probably a really good time to talk about how you buy willow and the measurements that you buy willow in because I know...
Rainy (38:49)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't it doesn't go off as such. No.
Yeah.
Jane Westoby (39:15)
When I went to buy my willow, think it was sold... correct me if I'm wrong... is it sold in barrels?
Rainy (39:24)
I'm not sure about that one. I don't sell rods but sometimes, depending on where you buy it from, Willow isn't sold by the number of rods or stems. It's usually, the big commercial growers will sell it by weight, which means that the longer the rod is, the less rods you'll have for the same weight, if that makes sense.
Jane Westoby (39:35)
No, it's not.
Yeah.
Rainy (39:53)
So if you're buying 10 kilos of a particular willow and that willows only three foot tall, there'll be far, far more rods in that bundle than if that willow was nine foot tall, because the taller the willow is, the thicker it will be. So.
Jane Westoby (40:06)
Yeah.
Yeah, I received
quite a lot of willow. I wasn't quite sure how much I was ordering because it didn't tell me how many stems it would be. And when I received it, there was a lot to the point where I had to have a willow party and invite my friend around who was a willow weaver to show us how to use it just to get rid of the willow because there was so much. And then I still have, I'd say three quarters of it left because I just
didn't have a clue how much I was buying. So the best thing is to maybe ask roughly how many stems are actually going to be in the amount that you're buying.
Rainy (40:42)
Well.
Yes,
if you go to a large commercial grower like Musgroves for example, on their website somewhere and I think that this applies to any of the large commercial growers, somewhere on the website they will give you an indication, it's only an indication, they can't guarantee it's a natural product, it comes in different sizes, they will give you an approximation
Jane Westoby (41:15)
Mm-mm.
Rainy (41:19)
of the number of rods per kilo per height. So it's then down to you to do the maths. But having said that, the willow that you may buy from a commercial grower may bear no resemblance to the same variety that you grow at home, at different spacings, at different environmental conditions.
Jane Westoby (41:24)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I missed that bit. I just placed the order.
Rainy (41:49)
because, you know, I buy black maul in because I can't grow enough for all my workshops. The black maul I grow here tends to be much thicker than the black maul that I buy commercially grown in. It is, yeah.
Jane Westoby (41:55)
Mm.
It's a natural product isn't it? yeah,
okay. Okay, so you offer a variety of workshops there don't you? What kind of things do you make in your workshops?
Rainy (42:16)
I try to go with the seasons. Making is something I've always done and I've taught numerous crafts, workshops. I'm a hand spinner, so I kept sheep for about 10 years. for the fleece, we grew the fleece, I spun the wool and then made the jumpers, et cetera. Not to sell, I might add. Not commercially viable to do it that way.
Jane Westoby (42:44)
Okay.
Rainy (42:46)
I consider wool much like willow. Both can be grown with no artificial input. They can be processed with no outside energy and you end up with a finished product that can be composted at the end of its useful life. So I try to, when I'm looking at workshops, I try to go for things that fit that mould. I don't teach workshops where we are gluing and sticking with plastic and various other things.
So I've run various different kinds of willow weaving workshops throughout the year, usually functional basket tree. So plant supports for climbing plants, herbaceous perennials, bird feeders, willow wreath bases at Christmas, that kind of thing. Yes, rather than decorative baskets. I suppose baskets are useful, but...
Jane Westoby (43:33)
Yeah, so like really useful, useful kind of product.
Okay.
Rainy (43:44)
Making a basket is not something you can do in two hours.
Jane Westoby (43:48)
takes. So how long
would it take to weave a basket let's say?
Rainy (43:52)
Somebody who weaves baskets a lot can make one, I don't know, probably about six hours or something. But if you've never made a basket before, there are a lot of different techniques involved and it would need to be probably a two day workshop to make a basket. And it might be something I do in the future, but at the moment, most of my workshops run for two and a half hours and I like that my customer base seems to like that structure. So I tend to keep my
Jane Westoby (43:57)
Wow.
Okay.
Rainy (44:22)
workshops to that size so we make things that will fit into that size. The only things that sometimes I do longer workshops are I do a willow growing workshop where people come and we talk about, much like we're doing today, how to grow willow varieties but that's not a weaving workshop, that's a growing, very different kind of customer base. But I also do botanical casting, that's a very popular workshop.
Jane Westoby (44:41)
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Rainy (44:52)
Christmas wreaths, swags, those kind of things, hanging baskets.
Jane Westoby (44:56)
What does the botanical
casting involve? What is this?
Rainy (44:59)
Botanical
casting is where we use plaster of Paris, which is biodegradable. It's not harmful to the environment. We go and gather things that happen to be growing around outside in that particular season. So it might be flowers in the summer. It might be seed heads in the autumn. Roll out some clay. They make impressions with what they found outside. Then we use the plaster.
to make a casting of that. It can be done in any shape or size, but we make little square plaques, then they can hang them on the wall. it's a, they are, they're very beautiful. It's something people are always amazed at how they can make something so beautiful, having never done it before. It's a lovely craft. And that's, I run that four times a year. That's very popular.
Jane Westoby (45:36)
That sounds so cute!
That sounds amazing. That's like a whole other session, isn't it? That one. Okay.
Rainy (45:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's
messy and it can be stressful because of the plaster. There are, you know, time constraints so you've got to make sure there's not, because it sets very quickly. Whereas some workshops, yes, yes.
Jane Westoby (46:04)
in.
Yeah, you've got to be on the ball. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, we can put
a link to that in the show notes as well. If you've got one of those coming up, can, we can pop that in the show notes as well. So if anyone is in the Bolton area and is interested in that, that sounds, that sounds fantastic. Okay. So just looking ahead, have you got any future plans for the farm or anything else that you want to do with it?
Rainy (46:16)
Yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
them.
If I could get a little bit more land, whether that's possible or not, I don't know. I would like to grow far more willow. I would like to be materially self-sufficient.
Jane Westoby (46:51)
Okay.
Rainy (46:52)
so I not having to buy tin but I would need more land for that so that's something. Growing wise I'm I'm planting more willow all the time I will always grow flowers but willow is becoming more more important to me and I'd like for people to come during the growing season to actually see what willow is because so many times people tell me
A lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between wicker and willow. Wicker is just a process of making something, it's a woven product. You can have plastic wicker or metal wicker. Yes. So it would be nice to help educate people on willow. Because of the way the world is, willow does so many things and is so...
Jane Westoby (47:26)
Okay.
Yeah, so when you buy a wicker basket, yeah, okay.
Rainy (47:51)
you know, it's environmentally positive as it grows, then it's useful without with minimal input, and then it can be composted again. And it's something I think we need to investigate more and use more instead of just going out buying things for the garden made of plastic that I've come all the way from China or wherever it is, you know.
Jane Westoby (48:15)
Yeah, yeah, of
course, of course. It's so, it's just natural, isn't it? It's... Okay, so... Okay, so is there any other... I know we've talked about so much today. Is there any other advice you'd give to someone who wants to grow, who wants to grow willow? Is there anything that you think we've missed?
Rainy (48:19)
Absolutely.
I'm more than happy people get in touch. I'm more than happy if they say look I want willow to do this and So if somebody's for gardeners or somebody who grows flowers You can grow willow as an ornamental so some of the shrubbier willows as I said the Salix Alba
That can be, rather than cutting it back every year, you can just leave it to grow as a shrub and it will give you beautiful colour in the winter. As florists or someone who likes to arrange flowers, you can grow willow with different coloured catkins for the spring. You can grow Salix tortuosa, the corkscrew willow, so that will give you texture in your arrangements. You can also use that kind of willow very well for...
sustainable structure for larger things but really is and plant plenty that's the other thing I'd say one or two of anything isn't going to give you much if you want to plant something plant 10 of it
Jane Westoby (49:43)
Okay.
Okay.
Rainy (49:52)
And if you think if you're cutting that back, you can plant those at a foot spacing or 10 willows that are foot spacing in a grid planting isn't taking up much space.
Jane Westoby (50:04)
No, that's quite quite an efficient kind of plant, isn't it? OK.
Rainy (50:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, and
it takes it probably takes about three years to get you a decent amount of stems. And so don't be put off after the first year. Yes, but once. Once you're off, you know, it's a marvelous material, absolutely marvelous. And it's very good for sorry, it's because the catkins are they arrive before much else is growing.
Jane Westoby (50:18)
Okay, so a bit of patience. Okay, patience is key.
Wow, okay. Well, I have learned... Go on.
Rainy (50:39)
The catkins are full of pollen and nectar for these pollinators. So very early food supply for wildlife as well. So win-win all the way around. And because the one thing that I did want to say as well, there's a big misconception. Don't plant willow near your house. It's got roots. Well, yes, that's true if you let the tree grow into a big tree.
Jane Westoby (50:45)
So great for wildlife.
Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. Well.
Rainy (51:09)
If you are coppicing that willow every year, the roots are not growing to that size. So, I mean, I'm not going to, you know, I want to cover myself and say, obviously, don't plant it right up against your house. But I've got willow fairly close to a, you know, a stone laid patio and it's never lifted those or anything like that. So, yes. No.
Jane Westoby (51:17)
Okay.
Okay, because you're coppicing it, you're cutting it. So you're not allowing it to grow into a big
tree. Okay. Okay. That might be something that some people are a little bit worried about. Okay. Well, I have learned so much today, so much about growing willow and I've been growing plants and flowers for years and years and years, but I think that just shows, you know, when someone is an expert, like you obviously are in willow, how much knowledge can be gained over
Rainy (51:39)
No. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jane Westoby (52:02)
the years. I'd like to say thank you so much and I will pop all of those links that we've talked about today into the show notes. So somebody does want to come and visit you on the farm, maybe attend a workshop. Where can they go to? How can they find you? What's your website?
Rainy (52:18)
You can find all the details on my website which is cherrytreeflowerfarm.co.uk or you can find me on Instagram or Facebook both of which are cherry tree flower farm.
Jane Westoby (52:30)
Okay, so, and you're in the Bolton area.
Rainy (52:34)
Yes, I'm right on the border of Bury and Bolton, about half an hour from Manchester City Centre. There are train lines, tram lines in both Bolton and Bury, so I'm quite easy to get to. Yeah.
Jane Westoby (52:46)
So nice and easy to get to. Okay,
well, thank you so much for today. It's been absolutely fascinating to hear about how you set the farm up and just all the things all willow. So that was just amazing. Thank you so, so much.
Rainy (53:05)
Thank you very much for inviting me.