Shame Is Lame

Show Notes

What if the most painful belief you carry isn’t about what you’ve done, but who you are? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore the often misunderstood and deeply isolating experience of shame—separating it from guilt to reveal how differently it lives in the body and shapes our behavior. While guilt can motivate repair, shame tends to drive hiding, shrinking, and disconnection. Through clinical and personal examples, Christopher and Kenyon unpack how shame is learned through early experiences of emotional invalidation—and how it quietly shows up in adulthood through people-pleasing, perfectionism, humor as defense, and even rage or withdrawal. The conversation examines the hidden cost of carrying shame, including chronic loneliness, self-abandonment, and the fear that being truly known would lead to rejection. It also offers grounded, practical ways to begin loosening shame’s grip—from naming it in safe relationships to reconnecting with the body and embracing our shared humanity. At its core, this episode is an invitation to step out of secrecy and into connection, which is where shame begins to lose its power. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_00: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.

Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that

affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

So today I want to talk about
shame.

Shame.

Shame.

Should have already mastered
everything.

That's a good way to think about
it.

That's like that perfectionism
thing.

Yep.

But well, so we did a video on
shame a while ago, not a

podcast, but one of our one of
the I think the first videos

that we put out was all about
like the toxicity of shame.

So I wanted to talk about it
today.

And this idea that, you know,
it's kind of determined the

difference between shame and
guilt, and then maybe some of

the other things that happen as
we're feeling shame.

SPEAKER_00: Although I think
we're only as sick as our

secrets when it comes to shame,
it's not a secret exactly.

It's more like a judgment that
we've made about ourselves, a

verdict that we've made about
ourselves.

Probably we made it a long time
ago and we carry it secretly.

Yeah.

And it's not so much about I did
something I regret.

It's more like I regret the kind
of person I am.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So that's that's an interesting.

So just to start, like the
difference between shame and

guilt, actually, that's you're
talking exactly about that.

Shame is I am a mistake, and
guilt is I made a mistake.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

It's it's differentiating
action, something that I did

versus something that we are.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

And shame is one of those things
I think when I when I go back to

like work in addiction and
substance use issues, like

that's the the constant that I
always hear about is this

underlying pit of shame.

This something that we feel in
deep within our core.

It's it's sometimes people talk
about like that that hole, that

that dark place in their
stomach.

But it's really, I think, at
their at the core, like that's

where we experience shame.

SPEAKER_00: There's somebody I
love in in recovery who

describes shame as this the
feeling of being disqualified

from connection with another
human being.

Tell me a little bit more about
that, like what the being

disqualified.

This well, we in past episodes
we talk a lot about how we're

we're humans, our herd animals,
we're pack animals.

Right.

We care very deeply about being
part of a herd and being persona

non grata, being cast out is
profoundly painful.

And I think with shame, it's a
sense shame brings a sense of

I'm not worthy, I'll never be
worthy no matter what I do.

So I am not going to connect
with anybody.

And the sad irony of it, and we
can get into this more as we

discuss it, is that that's
really the antidote to shame.

The antidote to shame is being
seen by another human being

without being judged, right?

To be seen in a loving,
supportive, unconditional way,

and yet shame prevents that from
happening.

If I feel ashamed, as my friend
in recovery says, I feel

disqualified.

I feel like I'm I there's
absolutely no way I can show who

I am to another person without
being severely judged, cast out

of whatever tribe I'm trying to
be a part of.

SPEAKER_01: You don't you you
don't meet the criteria to join

the club.

Exactly.

And that club happens to be
humanity.

Right.

And and so what we yeah, that
that makes a lot of sense,

right?

This this sitting with shame or
the having this underlying

feeling.

And I think everybody has some
level of something they're shame

they feel shame about, something
they're shameful about.

And when we think back to just
kind of that idea of something

that we never, there's things
that we never feel comfortable

sharing with another human
being.

By the way, if we shared those
things with other human beings,

they might be like, yeah, that's
okay, like I did that too.

Or it might, there might be
actually some normalized, you

know, experience with it.

But but we we internalize it in
such a way that it becomes this

toxic kind of cancerous feeling
that I think contributes to that

that thing that you're talking
about being other, like that

that painful experience of not
being allowed into the group,

disqualifying ourselves from it
already before we even get

there.

And then from there we just it's
the depression, the anxiety, and

all of the other kind of like uh
alienation, yeah, loneliness,

isolation, which just makes
exacerbates shame.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

The more alone we are with our
shame, the sicker we are with

those secrets.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

And so shame, shame isn't
something we're born with.

This isn't some like natural
like kind of like experience

that like, oh, well, I just I
have you know 20% shame when I

was born.

There's not a genetic marker for
shame, at least that we know of.

I'm sure someone might disagree.

But you know, when when we think
about it, shame comes from a

learned experience.

And I think shame, shame really
comes from when we're younger

and this, like maybe this when
we're trying to express our

needs and our feelings, and
we're kind of met with

punishment or disregard or
ridicule or silence.

So if we think back to like, you
know, our own childhoods or you

know, someone else, like a
little kid, every time we

express something, and it can be
anything, it can be happy, sad,

it could be any feeling that we
express, any interest.

If we're shut down or
disregarded or or told that

that's not right in any context,
consistently and over time, it

starts to contribute to shame.

Like feelings become dangerous.

Expressing ourselves becomes
dangerous.

And if we think about like you
were talking before about being

heard and being present with
people, when we express

ourselves, if if we can't
express ourselves, if we can't,

if if we can't allow others to
experience us without being

punished, then we're gonna hold
it inside and think about that

we're broken.

SPEAKER_00: Totally.

Yeah, and it also comes from I
think shame often comes from

this being told at the young age
you're talking about, that stage

of development, being told that
our feelings are wrong.

Yes.

That happens, shame is also
something it as you mentioned,

it comes up a lot with substance
use.

Yeah.

Comes up a ton in anybody who's
been assaulted or abused,

childhood sexual abuse, so many
times the child a child's job is

really to love.

Right, right.

I mean, that's like the child's
job.

And those who perpetrate abuse,
especially sexual abuse, any

kind of abuse on children, they
betray that and they distort it.

And so the child is left with a
feeling of like, well, wait a

second, my feelings must be
wrong.

Here I am, programmed
essentially to just love and

receive love, and I'm being
abused, I'm being assaulted,

this hurts.

Sometimes, you know, in the
worst cases of shame that I've

ever worked with or encountered
with clients come from the

clients who've been abused, and
they're like, but it felt good

when I was a kid.

And the perpetrators will often
it's like they have a code,

they'll use that against the the
victim against the survivor.

And so that deeply, deeply
increases the sense of shame.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

There and and like you were
saying, there's there's

attention, there's you know,
focus, there's all these things

that kids might be craving,
right?

And that becomes exploited.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

And then the child is made to
feel bad for wanting that kind

of a connection.

If it's a male, a boy who's
who's abused, who's molested,

and his body responds to it, it
makes the child feel unsafe in

their body.

It makes the the person hate
their body.

Sure.

Which also exacerbates a sense
of shame.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And so all of a sudden these
these feelings, like they people

start to look at it as these
these things are not safe to

show.

Absolutely.

I can't I can't show this
feeling, I can't show this

reaction.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Even if it's natural
and physical, or if we just like

whatever it is.

It's oh, I if if I express this
feeling, if I express this idea

or this interest, you know, this
doesn't have to just be about

feelings, right?

This is about interests or
things that we we like.

It's about clothing, it could be
about clothing, about sexual

preference, right?

It can be about anything, like
you know, the kind of food you

eat.

Right.

So it's suddenly this becomes a
this isn't safe to show.

So it goes, it doesn't
disappear.

It's not like, well, I'm just
gonna set that away and I don't

care about it anymore.

It becomes this, I need to now
push this underground and not

share it.

And but it's still mine.

But I'm gonna but I'm gonna keep
it down there, but everything

around it, like the bubble
that's surrounding it, becomes

very dark and toxic.

And so anytime you get near it,
it's suddenly you start to look

at all the other maladapted
behaviors that come up around

it.

Totally.

SPEAKER_00: It's it's brutal.

Shame is it's it's smart, it's
cunning.

It you know, it it'll it'll mask
itself in a way.

There's some great ways that it
sort of shows up, even you know,

going back to what we were
talking about last week with

people pleasing, that's one way
that shame sort of disguises

itself or tries to tries to
hide, tries to deal with itself.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So what would be an example of
how people pleasing is masked

through or shame is masked.

SPEAKER_00: Shame is masked
through people pleasing.

Yeah.

In the sense of like
perfectionism, hey, if I can be

as accommodating as possible,
then you're never going to point

a finger at me and sort of like
search or you know, interrogate

me or find the thing that I'm
trying to hide.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're not
gonna ask for more.

SPEAKER_00: No.

If I'm just as accommodating as
I can be, then you know, i i

it's also in a way you can look
at it is like self-abandonment

or self-erasure before anybody
has a chance to disapprove of

you.

Hiding.

It's definitely hiding.

SPEAKER_01: All just hiding.

Yeah.

Right.

Make yourself as small as
possible so that nobody, nobody

can see.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: I have so many
friends who were in the closet.

They were, you know, gay men
knew they were gay from the time

they were children or teenagers,
felt like they had to be frat

boys, literally, in college, and
be like toxic males, you know,

toxic, straight acting males in
order because of this shame

about their true sexuality.

SPEAKER_01: That's it's that is
so common amongst men that shame

comes out as rage, as
overachievement, in or total

withdrawal, right?

And instead of any visible
vulnerability.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And exactly what we
talk about.

Like, I oh, I'm gonna have to,
you know, jump into this this

persona or fit this role so that
nobody sees the thing that's

really underneath.

Totally.

And that is well, we've talked
about how men already have a

have an issue with sharing their
feelings and sharing emotions

and verbalizing it.

And I would say lack a lot of
the vocabulary around sharing

those emotions and and coupled
with any kind of shame about

something you may be into.

Maybe maybe you like a certain
kind of music that your friends

are gonna rag on you about, but
that builds up over time, right?

You're or you're called certain
you know things because you you

you like a certain lifestyle or
you just have an affinity for

certain things.

Totally.

Or you have, you know, you know,
just certain preferences that

people you're afraid that people
are going to judge you or

physically harm you because of
it.

SPEAKER_00: And in some cases,
there was, you know, there is

physical harm for be for people
who don't conform.

Growing up in the 80s,
definitely that, you know, you

if if you if I let people know,
you know, I remember like

showing up to school wearing
Reeboks, they were like the

arro, this was probably 84, 85,
the Reeboks that were that were

high tops.

And I remember the I was so
excited to wear them to school.

And the first thing I heard when
I got to school was, why are you

wearing girls' shoes?

And guess what?

I never wore those schools,
those shoes to school.

Of course.

No, I didn't want to get
ridiculed.

I was already getting ridiculed
for being overweight.

And it was like, oh man.

And then later on, when I thank
God, you know, when I when I

started really loving prince
music and putting like prince

posters on my walls at boarding
school, there were some people

who came in and you know made
comments.

And I at that point, thankfully,
I was just embracing my identity

and who I was, and I would just
give them a look, a prince look.

I'd raise an eyebrow or sneer
the way Prince would, because he

he could definitely throw shade
better than anybody.

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_01: You know, it's
interesting because it it's this

it's this idea of we've talked
about authenticity a little bit

before and having, you know,
having our insides match our

outsides.

Totally.

And that's so somewhere along
the line, right, you you you got

some confidence or something
where it was like, you know

what, screw it, I'm gonna put
prints posters on my wall

because and I'm okay with like
there's a there's a courage in

that along along the way.

Yeah, but then you start to
think about it, your your

insides begin to match the
outsides, and and I think this

is for when we're experiencing a
ton of shame, are there's

there's not that genuine,
authentic balance.

No, and I think that's one of
the ways that we have to look at

shame is that when when that
balance is offset, when we have

when our insides don't match the
outsides, that's when we start

to experience more mental health
issues and struggles and

relationship issues and
communication issues.

So we should we're we're
constantly, I almost said should

we we have the started?

I started with it.

We we're constantly striving to
to balance that uh the authentic

like inside, like how I feel
about myself and what I know

about myself and how I present
that to the world.

Right.

It's the presentation.

When I say insides match the
outsides, I mean how we feel

about ourselves and what what
goes on internally balances with

how we present to the world that
we're not putting up a facade.

Absolutely, and shame is shame
makes us put up a facade.

SPEAKER_00: It does, and it's
lonely behind that facade.

It is, it there's no chance of
connection.

And I have to say, unless you
are insanely courageous and

strong and have just the this an
incredibly solid foundation of

self-confidence and self-esteem,
you're not gonna get to that

place where you can have your
insides match your outsides

unless somebody in your life is
making it safe for you to show

who you actually are.

Correct.

So many people find it, you
know, we mentioned people with

struggling with substance use,
they find it in recovery.

They're you know, absolut after
years and years and years of

degradation and self-judgment
and judgment from their families

and judgment from everyone in
their circle, they can go to a

place where people identify with
what they've gone through and

they can kind of workshop being
vulnerable.

Yes.

Without and you know, it's what
we do with therapists.

We hopefully welcoming.

That's the idea where somebody
where somebody can can sh start

to show their true colors
without fear of reprisal,

without fear of judgment in a
safe way and normalizing that

process.

But I think again and again and
again, that's what I see, unless

somebody has the opportunity to
get in the sandbox and try

showing who they are and and not
be shut down for it.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's this
it is difficult because I think

when we experience shame, and
and for those listening, when

you think about moments in your
life when you've experienced

shame, it's natural to withdraw
and hide and become invisible.

So you you almost remove
yourself from when we talked

about this as a start, you
remove yourself from being able

to be seen.

Right.

And so you almost need people in
your life to to to actively be

looking for you in order to
start to undo that or you know,

allow yourself to be seen.

But the the shame I think is so
toxic because it causes us to

retreat and and become so small
that we we won't allow ourselves

to be seen.

And once we do that for a while,
we hit the point where, well,

now we're just not seen.

Now no, and then it starts to
it's like the self-fulfilling

prophecy of I've become so small
out of fear and not allowing

myself to be and not wanting
myself to be seen because it's

dangerous, to now nobody sees
me.

Now I'm worthless.

Now I'm a mistake.

Now I'm I'm not worth having the
relationship.

Like you said before, it it it
discredits us in in from

actually being allowed to
participate.

Right.

But that that becomes its it
feeds itself.

And so once we we pass a certain
point, it just kind of becomes

this self-fulfilling prophecy,
this self-feeding kind of loop

that that we live in.

Absolutely.

And that's that's really that's
when we start doing those

masking behaviors.

You know, you might see humor,
like, or or like the a lot of

humor, like all these things
that we deflect, we deflect

compliments, yeah,
accomplishments.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, I yeah, no,
absolutely.

You see that all the time.

Try to pay a compliment to
somebody who has shame, they

will not accept it.

No, even if you just say, like,
oh, I really like that shirt, I

got it on sale.

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's just
something old, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I got it on sale.

You have to yeah, you have to
kind of like, yeah, this is a

good thing.

You have to discount it.

And it's interesting, there
there's a there have been a few

studies now on, and Bessel
Vanderkook mentions it in the

body keeps the score.

People who struggle with
obesity, many of them, not all

of them, but many of them are
actually trying to sort of

they're they're they're
struggling with shame.

And for a lot of women who are
severely overweight, it's a

choice they make to avoid having
to deal with the shame of in

many cases having been sexually
assaulted.

And in in many cases, they will
lose weight and start to, you

know, have this experience of
men looking at them, people

looking at them, and they feel
so unsafe that they need to hide

again so they gain all the
weight back in order to appear

invisible.

That's one sort of permutation
of shame that is terribly, I

think, tragic because it
promulgates this intense

isolation.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: So we we want to
talk about some of the ways that

we we need we deal with shame.

Like we talked about like maybe
how this looks, some of the ways

that it comes out.

What are some of the ways that
we can start to to deal with

shame?

You mentioned having safe
places, having a person in your

life that is safe that where you
can feel okay expressing

yourself.

SPEAKER_00: Who can normalize it
for you?

It was so important to me to
have a really good friend who is

kind of popular say, Oh, I
really like Prince 2, you know,

when I was like 12.

Made it safe.

Made it safe.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: It gave me
permission, it normalized it.

I could identify with somebody
else.

Somebody else was identifying
with me.

Oh, this person's cool.

SPEAKER_01: You know what just
struck me, Kenyon, was this idea

of how sometimes that that
becomes maladaptive before we

get into the hey, let's look at
like how to do this.

I was just thinking of how how
the bar works.

Like goes to the bar.

Or, you know, and and you're or
if you're around other people

who are abusing substances.

And I know we keep coming back
to that, but there's this,

there's there's other areas in
in life where I think this

there's examples, but this is
kind of the the easy one to look

at, which is I feel this way
about myself.

I'm closed off.

These other people feel this way
about about themselves, but

there's that equal that
equalizer, there's the the

substance use is something that
it kind of balances it out, and

we've talked about We talked
about where there's that it

evens the playing field.

And so if we're walking around
with these negative feelings and

and this shame and these things
that we don't want to show

people, there's still this it's
it's not even a false sense of

connection.

There is a connection there over
something, but it's it's

harmful.

And I think that's what we have
to be really mindful of and and

careful of is that when we're
trying to connect with other

people because we're we're so
afraid and and you know we've

got all the shame or these and
these negative feelings that

we're not seeking it out from
maladaptive or harmful places.

When I say maladaptive, I just
mean harmful, like harmful

behaviors.

Things that, you know, we we
talk about like gambling, you

know, substance abuse, you know,
shopping addictions, most of the

things we think of as addictive
behaviors.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I mean,
you know, I also worked with

young people, young men who
identify as incel and they're,

you know, with which is this it
started online, an identity

that's characterized by like
extreme misogyny and anger

towards women and propensity for
violence and certain kinds of

music, yeah, certain kinds of
games, and it really adds up to

a very toxic male identity.

And these people are often super
reclusive in finding each other

online, and it reinforces a
highly maladaptive, not only a

maladaptive behavior, but like a
maladaptive identity.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

And super toxic, yeah, right,
and and dangerous.

Right.

Because this is where where a
lot of abuse of there's been a

lot of abusive behavior and and
violence coming out of that that

community.

Some of the like school shooters
identify as you know, I think of

that is it it happens so
quickly.

So when we think about how fast
the that ident if if we're

pining for connection, just as
human beings, right?

So this is human nature that we
need to be connected.

We need to be part of the herd,
we need to be part of the the

the group, otherwise we don't
survive.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And you're you're
cast out, you feel separate, you

feel like you're a mistake,
right?

You feel broken, right?

And suddenly you have somebody
who just pays attention online.

And this is all predatory
behavior if we look at it

online, right?

Hey, let me let me tell me more
about that.

Like, come on, like, you know,
all the you know, when you think

about like all this all this
stuff about kids' safety online

now and and the predators just
posing as somebody else,

catfishing people, like this the
examples are endless, endless.

And it really, I think, I think
if we look at that, comes from

this if if somebody's feeling
insecure and they're feeling

shame, it's so much easier to
exploit that.

And and there are a lot of
people who are predatory in that

way, and they can pick up on it
and they can read that and they

will exploit that.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that old it's it feels like
a cliche, but it's used by

perpetrators, you know, people
who molest children, you know,

don't remember, don't tell
anybody.

This is our secret.

And if you tell somebody, you
know, something terrible is

gonna happen to your parents, or
something, you know, you're

you're gonna be you're gonna be
punished.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Or I'm going to do something.

Or I'm gonna do something.

Which they'll often they'll
threaten as well, but or just

make it, but they will will
exploit that fear and that and

that shame.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

You see that with domestic
violence all the time.

You know, it's not just
children, it's adults too, who

are living under these severe,
you know, sort of bonds of

shame.

How many women who are battered
by their partners then don't

want to admit it.

Oh, I ran into a wall, I fell
down the stairs, and you know,

meanwhile being told by their
abuser, hey, if you tell anybody

about this, if you go to the
police, if you tell your

parents, I am going to kill you.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: I think I think
there's even more subtle uh

signs that to look for too,
which is just nobody's gonna

believe you.

If you if people and and this
goes back to even childhood when

we were talking about like the
the roots of shame, right?

This idea of things aren't safe
or the these things that I'm

feeling aren't aren't okay,
which is nobody's going to pay

attention to you, nobody's gonna
listen to that.

So when you think about how how
often in these situations people

are put down or or made to feel
insignificant, and I think

that's where where shame just
really unfortunately flourishes,

it just kind of grows in that in
that environment.

SPEAKER_00: It in that's one of
the ways in which silence can be

violence, because shame
flourishes in silence, it begets

silence, and you know, we I've
said it already in this episode,

I'll say it again in recovery.

We're only as sick as our
secrets, right?

Shame shrinks when it's spoken.

Yes, you know, to be to name it,
you know, for me, hey, I'll I I

love destigmatizing things, you
know.

I I have you know, things that
I've gone through, experiences

I've had that have that people
have told me to feel ashamed

about, you know.

Somebody like my I have a
profile on psychology today, I

guess we all do, right?

And I'm smiling in my photo.

And I had somebody say, like,
you know, you really need to

replace that headshot with a
professional therapist headshot.

And I was like, actually, that's
a professional headshot.

What what's the problem with it?

And they're like, Well, you're
smiling.

And I have had multiple clients
reach out to me from that

profile, and I'll say, Hey, what
just curious, why did you reach

out to me?

And they'll say, Because you're
smiling.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And it gave me hope.

And it's an authentic smile.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not.

SPEAKER_01: It wasn't the the it
wasn't the yeah, the profile

smile.

The profile smile.

It wasn't the profile.

It wasn't the Ola Mills smile.

But that's so telling about
where that person was coming

from versus the other people who
are looking also like, oh no, I

I I want the person that has
that.

Because there was a safety in
that.

SPEAKER_00: But we're told, you
know, don't smile, keep your

head down, don't wear clothes
like Kenyon wears.

You know.

SPEAKER_01: I um hide your
tattoos.

That's right.

I I was thinking about this with
my with my kids recently, like

talking about things that
embarrass them.

Yeah.

And, you know, they're they're
young.

They're in that age though where
they're they're embarrassed of

you, right?

Not fully.

Uh, when I pull up to the school
to drop my daughter off, she she

turns down the music and sinks
down in her seat.

And I'm like, I'm the coolest
dad here.

What is your deal?

Like, uh like Tribe Call Quest,
like blasting, or it'll just be

like some like other metal.

I'll go into school, like
blasting rage against the

machine.

She's like, Dad, stop.

I was like, what?

These kids, this, they're
they're blessed to have this

experience right now.

But when I talk to them about
embarrassment, other than my me

intentionally trying to like
embarrass them, you know, it's

it's this idea of owning owning
the embarrassing moment, oh

owning the thing that you feel
shame about because when you

name it, it you can't feel like
you're saying, you it's no

secret.

So, you know, and I I've I've
tried to practice this over my

life, and sometimes it works and
sometimes it doesn't.

But if I do something that
really embarrasses myself and

and or I feel really embarrassed
or even shameful about

something, I try to immediately
call it out in that moment to

the person, be like, and just
kind of make light of it because

it helps.

But that's one way that I really
try to reduce like the shame.

I have enough shame that I just
keep bald up down inside.

I don't need to be adding more
to the pile.

It it does a good enough job
just kind of sitting there and

moving around.

So when I when I do something, I
really I do try, if I recognize

it, to say, like, wow, that was
really awkward, or oh, I really,

God, why did I say that?

Like, it can just be a passing
comment like that.

At least if I put it out and out
there, it gives A, it gives the

other person a chance to be
like, yeah, that was crazy, or

no, it's no problem at all.

Like I I can, I can then I can
navigate the level of acceptance

and the awkwardness.

But if I feel comfortable
navigating like an awkward

moment, then I can throw that
shame out there.

But I have to name it first and
be like, yeah, God, I felt

really bad when I did that.

Oh, I can't believe I said that.

SPEAKER_00: I love that so much
because it's modeling

self-forgiveness.

It's modeling, hey, it's okay to
make mistakes.

And shame says it's not okay to
make mistakes.

Shame says if you make a
mistake, you are a mistake, and

you'd better not mess up.

There is no second place, all
that no second chances.

Bullshit.

Yeah.

You know, I'm 50 years old.

I have had so many second and
third and fourth and fifth

chances, and I will continue to
have more chances.

And, you know, I I just love
that you're able to take, you

know, hold yourself accountable.

I can try.

Well, you can try, but without
punishing yourself, you know,

just to admit.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard.

In all honesty, I will still
punish myself about it.

Oh, sure.

But it's much less painful and
it doesn't stick as long.

Right.

Then it might switch back to
guilt.

Oh, I made a mistake.

I think that's when we talk
about that distinction again,

guilt is I made a mistake versus
shame, I am a mistake.

They there is a relation to
them, and and you can cross that

line from one and one does
transform to the other, but you

can move it back.

Right.

I think we have we have the
ability.

And that's where I think if we
can call attention to the

moment, and this is what's so
important with teenagers,

especially kids, like teach them
that making a mistake is okay.

Yeah, just call it out.

You don't have to hide, you
don't have to run away.

You know, I constantly tell my
kids come back here and talk

about it.

Come back here and talk about
it.

Don't run upstairs and go hide
in your room, don't hide under

the table.

Come back and talk about it.

Right.

It's okay.

I did the same stupid things as
a kid, too.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Probably worse.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

It's definitely it gets
normalized.

Definitely worse.

No, it gets normalized that way.

And yeah.

It's it's so important.

SPEAKER_01: Normalization's
really that's key.

You're bringing that up because
that's also normalizing is

understanding that, oh, you know
what, Kenyon, you probably have

shame too, and I have shame, and
you have some shame.

Hey, so we both have this kind
of it's maybe about different

things, but we all experience it
as human beings.

These are all things we feel bad
about.

Totally.

We've all done something we feel
bad about.

That's okay.

Where it's not just our secret
like albatross to suffer with.

SPEAKER_00: No, and that sense
that shame gives us, which is

that you're the only person in
the world who has this, you are

terminally unique, my friend.

Yeah, no one sucks just as bad
as you do, you know, in quite

the same way.

And it's God, I mean, just the
shame of like farting and trying

to cover it up, I mean, that's
so awkward.

It's like just own the fucking
fart.

We're it there's two of us here.

I know you smell it.

But if I say, but if I say, hey,
you know what?

I farted Chris, whoops, yeah,
it's it's I I know you farted

too.

And it's to clarify, nobody's
farting right now.

SPEAKER_01: No, I just want to
be very clear.

Yeah.

Because my wife is gonna be
like, that whole part of your

podcast where you talked about
farting.

SPEAKER_00: But again, but but
sharing breaking shame down,

because shame does say, you
know, you're the only person

who's experienced this, and
you'd better hide in order to be

barely acceptable, and thus
shame self-perpetuates being

able to talk about it.

That's why I love therapy.

I mean, hey, this is this is a
place to counter shame, to let

it out, show it to the light.

It's like a vampire, it'll die
in the light, in the sunlight.

SPEAKER_01: That's true.

It can be, it's hopefully a safe
place.

And I know it's kind of cliche
to say, oh, therapy is like

creating this safe environment
for people, but that really is

when I think about therapy and
being a therapist and that

process, it's it's not just the
room, the safe room, or it it a

lot of it has to do with that
space, but you know, since we've

gone to telehealth, that's a
little different, you know.

But I think it's it's really
about how the relationship is

safe and and how can somebody
just share something and not

feel a sense of judgment.

And as or and and like like a
mean judgment too.

Like there's there can some of
that we've talked about

assessment versus judgment, just
kind of like listening, but this

idea of like, oh, I'm being
judged and I'm being put down,

or or this person thinks less of
me because I'm saying this.

Absolutely, and that is that is
what we're avoiding.

We don't want that.

We want we are trying to have a
relationship with somebody where

you can you can tell me about
all the weird stuff that goes on

in your life.

Yeah, dude, that's just you.

That's okay.

Yeah, it's it's part of you,
it's part of what gives people

character, and sometimes we do
weird stuff.

SPEAKER_00: Humans are very
strange, it's so rewarding to

have a client, and I just had
this the other day, to have a

client say, I've never told
anybody any of this before, but

this happened to me.

And then it makes me it's deeply
gratifying to me, not because

something awful happened to a
client, right, but because that

client is experiencing safety
and I can see the shame kind of

like minimizing.

And it's not like I I don't aim
to be anybody's confessor.

Yeah, you know, I don't want to
be the only person the client

can come to with their stuff.

I want to model it so that that
client feels comfortable going

out in the world and sharing
these supposedly shameful things

that aren't shameful with their
loved ones, with their friends,

with anyone they trust.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So so if people think of therapy
as a microcosm or a test testing

ground for like, yeah, the
sandbox, you get to you get to

experiment with that and then
take it out and try it.

But the cool thing in therapy is
that you get to identify the

people that might be safe.

So there's nothing wrong with
tipping the scale.

Put your finger on the scale and
tip it in your favor a little

bit to go out.

Try those, try those experiments
first.

Pick the safest person you can
think of in your life to go and

share something that you feel
shame about.

Don't go to the hardest or
person or I think about all how

many conversations I've had, not
just with clients, but just with

people in general, like, yeah, I
keep going back to this

relationship or this person in
my life or this this parent or

or this this you know ex or this
partner, active partner.

And I just keep asking for this
thing and they're just not

giving it.

They're just not right.

I'm like, why you're you keep
going to a dry well, right?

Go to the person that's gonna
give that to you.

You have a friend that hypes you
up all the time, doesn't matter,

go to them, get some more hype,
right?

Just eat it up, try it, and then
find the next person, and then

find the next person.

And that's and I think that's a
good exercise for people

listening to to just reflect on
who in your life can you share

something like that with?

Is there somebody that is mostly
safe that you can do that with

or that would give you some
feedback?

Maybe they're gonna be bluntly
honest with you, you know, not

brutally, but bluntly honest
with you back and say, Yeah,

like here's how I think about
here's what I think about that,

or here's how I feel about that.

But you know, identify people
that you have in your life that

you can share some of these
things with.

Because shame needs three things
to survive.

It needs secrecy, silence, and
judgment.

And so if we take any one of
those things a losing its, it's

losing its its power, it's
losing its you know, ability to

control our lives.

So uh find don't be silent.

Yeah find some way to speak
about it.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

And once we do get in the habit,
I mean that that's the thing, it

can change.

We those of us who uh sort of
get locked into this tower with

our shame, we think this is it.

I'm stuck here.

It's never gonna get better.

I'm only gonna become more
ashamed.

And and the more we do talk
about it and share and allow

ourselves to be seen by other
people, shame really does

diminish.

Yeah, it's not permanent.

SPEAKER_01: Remember, it was a
learned behavior early on, or a

learned experience early on.

And that means we can unlearn it
or learn to do something

different.

I don't think we unlearn it,
it'll still, it's still

something we've experienced, but
we can we can learn to do

something different with it.

SPEAKER_00: That's one of the
things I love about just the not

only recovery, however you
choose to define recovery, but

just the word itself.

The idea of recovery is that we
are reclaiming something we once

had.

So it gets back to what you're
saying about like our origins

are amazing.

You know, we come into this
world, some say we come in

innocent, we but we come in with
like all these resources and all

this potential, and then you
know, we're kicked around a bit

and we and we develop shame.

Yeah.

But the idea of recovery as
something recovering something

we once had is really brings me
a lot of hope.

And I know it brings a lot of
hope to my clients.

SPEAKER_01: That's a beautiful
thought and and just something

to reflect on, reclaiming
something we once had.

And shame is lame.

That's the takeaway.

Hey man, shame's lame.

It's the new dare program.

Oh, I like it.

Actually, that's what we're
doing.

We're going in the schools.

Shame is lame.

SPEAKER_00: Shame is lame, bro.

SPEAKER_01: That seems like a
natural, natural place to stop

this music.

Thank you, Kenyan, for that
wonderful insight.

You said something so beautiful.

And then I just shot all over
it.

I refuse to be ashamed for it.

That's right.

No, I I appreciate that about
you.

SPEAKER_00: Perfect.

Thanks for listening to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

local emergency services or a
trusted mental health

professional.