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Patsy quit her job. Susannah quit the city. Now they’re on a quest to find the path through the wobbly middle of their careers. This podcast is for every woman who’s asking “What now?”.
Hosted by Susannah de Jager and Patsy Day, The Wobbly Middle features interviews with famed city superwomen, dazzling entrepreneurs and revolutionary midwives and doctors who reveal what they’ve learnt through their own wobbly middle experiences.
[00:00:07] Susannah de Jager: Welcome to The Wobbly Middle, a podcast about women reinventing their careers with Susannah de Jager and Patsy Day.
[00:00:21] Patsy Day: Hi Susannah.
[00:00:22] Susannah de Jager: Hi, Pats.
[00:00:23] Patsy Day: How's your wobbly middle?
[00:00:24] Susannah de Jager: It's been a busy few weeks. As you know, I'm moving continent in just over a month, and to be honest, it's a lot. My admin list is endless, and in the middle of it all, it can be really hard to find a moment to breathe, let alone to plan for what next. I think this is how lots of people feel in midlife. Life is full and just where is the time? I'm trying to do all the things we tell ourselves to do. Have a cup of tea with friends, writing a to do list, and adding things I've already done just so I can cross things off, but I find what's really helping me, even though it's tinged with sadness, is to imagine myself on the other side of the world on the other side of this moment. Since I was young, I've done this. Pick a date in the future and focus on it thinking, by then this move, exam, feeling will be over and I will barely remember this moment. It really helps me to lessen the slight feeling which is panic, panic, panic at the moment and Pats, how's your wobbly middle?
[00:01:26] Patsy Day: I've been having a lot of conversations lately about how we carve out the time and mental space to figure out what's next. Let's face it, most of us can't just hit pause and take months off work. But here's the thing, even small changes can make a difference. When we interviewed Nina van Schaik, she said something shifted in her when she turned 40. She stopped putting up her hand for everything, stopped rushing to fill silences. It was uncomfortable at first, but her world didn't fall apart if not, everything got done. There's a freedom in letting some things go. It turns out you don't need a huge chunk of time to start moving forward. I've been reading a lot about micro gains. The idea of spending just 1 percent of your day, which is about 15 minutes, thinking about your next step can spark real momentum. Why don't you try this and let us know if it works for you?
[00:02:24] Susannah de Jager: Today's guest is Sophie Archer. Sophie is a lawyer by training who worked for years in fast paced hedge funds and financial services. Then, in the space of just a few years, she faced a series of intense life battles; IVF, blood cancer, and the end of her marriage. Coming through these dark times, Sophie believes has given her the freedom to choose and strengthened her faith in herself. In life, as a woman in particular, says Sophie, there is a lot of loss. Now I have so many experiences that have shaped me. It shows me that I am strong. As she prepares to appear on our screens in MasterChef: The Professionals, hers is a story of resilience and unlearning how we are told to measure our value.
[00:03:07] Patsy Day: Sophie, hello, thank you for joining us today.
[00:03:10] Sophie Archer: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited about this.
[00:03:13] Patsy Day: Well, we're excited to see you on MasterChefs the Professionals. But chefing's not where you started, you qualified as a lawyer.
[00:03:20] Sophie Archer: Yeah, that's right.
[00:03:21] Patsy Day: was it about the law that appealed to you?
[00:03:24] Sophie Archer: I think I was attracted to what I perceived to be the intellectual rigor surrounding being a lawyer and if we're going into kind of a psychological reason, I definitely, as a woman wanted to prove to my family, to the men in my life that I was bright and that I was capable of keeping up with the guys. This was a different time then. So I definitely think there was a bit around proving myself and I also felt quite entrepreneurial always and I thought, by being a lawyer, that would give me the foundation to build a business or to be part of building a business. So I don't think I necessarily thought I would always be a solicitor in private practice, but I thought it would be a good stepping stone for building a career.
[00:04:20] Patsy Day: And did it give you those things?
[00:04:21] Sophie Archer: Yes, and no. I think when one gets older, you do realise it's all those cliches and platitudes, but that has to come from within you and external validation is only going to get you so far. So, I definitely have found that when you say you're a lawyer, you are treated in a particular way, there are assumptions made about you. I think there are assumptions that you are a hard worker and that you're bright and that you're determined and so in some ways, yeah, choosing that career path does result in that, but ultimately it has to come from inside and you have to feel like that truly within yourself, I think.
[00:05:08] Susannah de Jager: It's interesting hearing you talk about going into quite a male environment and that sense of proving yourself in that you can keep up. I definitely recognise some of that having spent a large chunk of my career in financial services. Those environments are very male still.
[00:05:27] Sophie Archer: Yeah, I definitely came across a lot of misogyny all the way through my career But I also worked with some really inspiring men, I found one of the biggest challenges, it's, even men that might have considered themselves super liberal and supportive and in some respects, were, the patriarchal structure of our society just.does pervade and just jokingly, for example, I was asked in an interview, oh, we can't ask anything, like, I can't even ask if you're pregnant, but are you? And it's just one example of many things. if I didn't socialise in the way that some of my male bosses thought I should, because I was purposely holding myself back because I wanted to instill some authority and, and make sure I had a bit of separation between my social life and my professional life. It's just things like that and as I got older and built my confidence, I felt better at navigating those things.
[00:06:33] Susannah de Jager: You started in law, you worked in financial services. What happened to precipitate a change for you?
[00:06:38] Sophie Archer: A lot of things, I had always had a burning desire to make food part of my career and actually when I qualified as a solicitor, I got offered a job that I wasn't sure about and in some of my holidays, at university, I'd done a little bit of chefing. So I started up this catering business while I was waiting for a legal job to come along and I ended up through word of mouth having this quite successful catering business and so I had previously done that. I then got kind of swept back into the law when a job came along that I really liked and so later on in my career, I had a gap from work and did the Leiths Diploma, went to culinary school, and that really gave me the bug But what precipitated that even more was that I got a spot of blood cancer which really, when I got through it, really woke me up and made me think, actually, life isn't about, you know, in five years time, I'll do it. If you want to do something, now is the time.
[00:07:50] Patsy Day: How old were you at the time?
[00:07:51] Sophie Archer: When I got blood cancer, I was 37, so it was highly unexpected, but I feel that the universe kept on waking me up. I kept on half awaking to the fact that I wanted to change my life and then I'd kind of make a change, and then I'd go back and I had unsuccessful rounds of IVF, and that made me think, gosh, what you know, maybe I need to make a change, but it didn't quite spur me to do it and then I got blood cancer and again, I thought, maybe it is in the stars for me to make a change and I didn't quite go through with it and then my marriage broke down and all of these things sound disastrous, but actually in hindsight, they are kind of a gift that I would never want to give someone, but have totally transformed my life because they've really made me think, what do I really want?
[00:08:48] Susannah de Jager: We'll come back to some of that because what you've said is huge and that's a lot and as you say, they're the gifts that nobody would give. But what's interesting that you say through that is that you kept going back and obviously, there are lots of reasons one might stay in something known and secure, but do you think you've identified what it was that kept you in that space?
[00:09:10] Sophie Archer: I think one of the challenges that I've found in my life is that I'm interested in a lot of things, and I actually, I haven't come to the realisation that I hated law and I hated working in house, because actually, I really enjoyed it and in the same way that there are a lot of avenues that I want to pursue and I feel like, is there enough time? There are so many things that I want to do. But I just felt like, I'd given that chapter a really good go of law and it had kept on pulling me back because there were elements of it that I really enjoyed. I really, as I said, I really enjoyed the intellectual rigor. I really loved finding solutions and I really loved managing a team and seeing a project through. But I just finally had a realisation that actually maybe that chapter was done and it was time to get onto another one.
[00:10:04] Patsy Day: What gave you strength during the difficult times? And what helped you come to the realisation that what you had been through was something you could draw strength from?
[00:10:14] Sophie Archer: That is a great question. I think when you've been through an illness, it can be quite isolating and this is a great arc, but I really got into podcasts when I was recovering and I really got into How to Fail with Elizabeth Day and I think it really helped me stop thinking that I should be embarrassed by what I had gone through and actually, it really made me think that I was proud of how I'd handled it and as I said, it's not anything that I'd want anyone else to go through, but it showed me that I had a lot of strength and will to live and to get through and actually there's a lot of excitement on the other side and hearing other people's stories really made me feel like I'm not alone and that'swhat I love about the kitchen too, is when you get into kitchens, you realise, God, people have amazing stories and there's a real, awful pun, melting pot of people that work in kitchens and that is really inspiring. So I think all of those experiences and hearing other people's voices galvanised me and made me really excited about what was going to be next.
[00:11:44] Patsy Day: It's also interesting because the law is very stable in the sense that you're probably employed when everything else is going up and down in your life, then we do cling to some kind of stability and I think that's normal. But if everything was thrown up in the air for you, perhaps you saw that there was no stability.
[00:12:03] Sophie Archer: Yeah, I think actually you've really hit the nail on the head in that these discombobulating things, you weather them and then you come through and you do feel like you've gained a lot of kind of insight or empathy or resilience and then I thought, what is holding me back at this point?
[00:12:23] Susannah de Jager: We've spoken about some of the reasons you went into law and you've obviously illuminated upon your sense that you wanted to go back to cheffing and that it was really calling you and this slightly iterative process. As you went through that period, did you feel that you had to sort of shift the way you saw yourself? So, the stability, the prestige of law, cheffing has a lot of its own prestige, but it's very different, you were going to have to start from a different point. Do you observe a period where you dealt with that change in your identity and what was that experience like for you?
[00:12:59] Sophie Archer: Oh, absolutely, in so many ways. I think ego can really hold me back and I think when I, for example, lost all my hair,I have been, super lucky in that I'd never really thought, particularly dwelt for a long time about my appearance and then something that seems so everyday is gone and you do re-evaluate. God, what is the importance that I put on how I look, for example? And you do kind of re-imagine your life in the same way that I thought I would have children and whilst that wasn't a huge dream of mine, but I certainly, when I met my husband, I really thought I would like to have a family with this man and so those shifts in attitude to how you envisage your life might go, it does challenge you and the same with chefing. I had to leave some of the ego behind. I wasn't established in my career, I had to start again and whilst I had experience behind me, not so much in a professional kitchen and, I decided to do a year in a Michelin star restaurant in Kitchen W8 and so I was doing part time there and part time private chefing and you just have to let go of your ego.
Going back to the Prue Leith School of Food and Wine, for those of you who don't know, Prue Leith is currently the judge on Great British Bake Off. But when it came to saying, I want to go back in and going to study, what was it about the school that drew you in? I think I love learning, partly that was possibly why I became a lawyer too. The thought of doing a whole nother degree really appealed to me for some reason and it's the same with Leith's, the thought of going in and essentially, I think they might've changed it to a degree now, but it was a full diploma and you're doing practical lessons in the morning and then you're doing written tutorials in the afternoon and you're being tutored by established amazing chefs and a friend of mine had done it maybe five or ten years before me and I'd really seen how it had changed her life.
[00:15:25] Patsy Day: I suppose one of the great things about doing the Leith course was you built a network of other chefs around you during that period.
[00:15:33] Sophie Archer: Absolutely, I'd say that was one of the most wonderful things that's come out of it and, when I stepped into that Michelin starred kitchen, there was a chef that had gone to Leith's, not in my year, but there's that common thread and you've been through the same experience and It does feel a bit like the Bake Off tent in that everyone that's there that I came across by and large is just so inspiring and obviously passionate about food and it's a really incredible community and even now, I still am in touch with the Leith's alumni, whether it's for projects that I'm working on or for support and yeah, it's a really special place in terms of the people that go there and the people that you meet.
[00:16:19] Susannah de Jager: It's obviously a really different environment that you're working in and you use the word there, passion. Do you think that cheffing is naturally more of a vocational calling where people really, go towards it because they just have to, they're obsessed with it and how do you see the differences between what you did before and the environment and where you are now?
[00:16:41] Sophie Archer: Chefing is hard and it attracts people from all different walks of life. I think people who stay in the hospitality industry, there is a vocational element there because it is super tough. You can't just call it in and I think that's why I've been so attracted to it because it requires real focus mentally and physically it's so demanding too. a typical chef will be doing shifts of at least 12 hours, and that requires real precision and attention to detail. from your mind and then you're on your feet and you're using every part of your body. I come back from chefing some days and I've done 20, 000 steps and I just, I do love how it does totally just occupy all of the parts of your body, and that's hugely attractive to me.
[00:17:40] Patsy Day: And is your entrepreneurial spirit being fed at the moment through your chefing?
[00:17:45] Sophie Archer: Yeah, so at the moment I am working with a restaurant in Barnes and I'm also doing a project called Kitchen of Dreams where I'm consulting with other businesses and chefing for kind of corporates with my business partners. So there's definitely an entrepreneurial stream to my life at the moment, which I'm really loving, yeah.
[00:18:10] Patsy Day: Tell us a bit more about the Kitchen of Dreams?
[00:18:12] Sophie Archer: So the Kitchen of Dreams, I started with a business partner who I met in a really serendipitous way. I went to do some chefing to cover another chef's shift and met this wonderful woman, Claire Sandré and she happened to be a really good friend of my first cousin, so weird how these things work out and we just happened to be at very similar stages in life and we were both talking about our food passions and were saying that we really want to drive a food business forward, but we're looking for partners. And we kind of looked at each other, having met each other for all of 40 minutes and thought, this is a crazy conversation to be having with a brand new person. But by the end of that first meeting, we kind of intimated to each other, perhaps this could be the start of something and it's gone from there. So we arein the beginning stages of operating a cafe, which may turn into more of a restaurant in Chelsea and then we're also providing cheffing services to corporates. for kind of their lunches and corporate events and then we're also putting on events as well through the Kitchens of Dreams and promoting a lot of women who want to work more flexibly, which I feel really passionately about and building a business together, which I really enjoy.
[00:19:40] Susannah de Jager: So you've said two things there that I just want to draw out because I think they're quite important. The first is you've got a number of projects on now, so you've gone from a career that as Pats was saying. You're a lawyer, you tend to be employed by one place or in house and now you've got a much more diverse set of things. It obviously gives you more optionality going forward. Do you think having gone through one iteration of pivoting your career, that's something naturally that you want to keep open and have that more optionality?
[00:20:12] Sophie Archer: Yes, absolutely, yes.
[00:20:14] Susannah de Jager: Because we've heard that from a couple of people now that once you've had the experience of trying to discover things, you almost then wouldn't narrow it down again because you have togo through the whole process again, and the other thing you said thatis really lovely, and again, to your point of plurality of instinct, playing quite a big part and that as you get older and you spoke about confidence earlier as well, you do know yourself a bit better, you do know people, hopefully, a bit better and you say it sounds crazy, but actually, as I hear you say that, I think, gosh, there's so much you learn about somebody in 40 minutes. So I'd love to hear what it is you look for in people that you would take a bit of leap of faith with.
[00:20:54] Sophie Archer: Yes, exactly. I think one of the promises that I made to myself is that I want to work with people who our values align, and I mean values such as enthusiasm but also commerciality, but also passion. So, the other project, for example, the Barnes Project, that happens to be in part owned by a great friend of mine's twin, who's incredibly entrepreneurial and has built businesses in different industries and his enthusiasm, hustle, chutzpah, really drew me to him, in the same way that those qualities really drew me to Claire and what I also look for is not exactly the same qualities. Otherwise, what's the point? I have obviously a bit of a business brain and I'm passionate about food, but there's other elements that I'm definitely less good at, like marketing and having complimentary skills and so that ideas can percolate and be exciting, is really important to me at this stage and nice, kind people.
[00:22:06] Patsy Day: And acknowledging that you don't have to be all those things yourself.
[00:22:10] Sophie Archer: This morning I was listening to Diary of a CEO, speaking to Julian Treasure, who is a speech and listening expert and within it, he talks about mapping values and I actually sat down and did this the other day because I realised the irony of doing a podcast where you're talking to people about pivoting careers and yet perhaps not being able to articulate your own values and yours aren't so far away from mine, which is mine is FIG and it's fun, by which I mean, it's not always going to be fun, but it should be fun a lot of the time and I really am a great believer in that it's a wonderful thing to bring into a workplace. impact, and that means that whatever's important to you, the impact of it should be visible and should be intertwined with it and great people, which is slightly back to the fun thing, but I really believe it and if I might go further, great people is not just that you like them and you can have fun, it's that they have your respect, that they have qualities that you look up to yourself and are complementary. I love that and also just not being afraid of getting people who are much better than you. It's wonderful to be around people who are just insanely talented and the Leith's alumni or working with people at Kitchen W8, you meet people who are incredible at what they do and that you can learn from.
[00:23:38] Susannah de Jager: I think that makes a lot of sense. We haven't explicitly drawn it through, but you talked about some of the expectations and why you went into your lawyer career and I think that we're taught a lot, implicitly, explicitly, we say it to ourselves, other people say it to us about where value comes from in so many ways and a lot of them are still very traditional. So it can be being bright would be the most obvious one and having the accruements that show you are being able to earn well would be another one. Being chosen in the sense of being in a long term relationship or married and then one that is less and less popular as we're reading at the moment, but is reproducing, having children and having that value to society and yet we all know these things are not what makes a happy, good, rounded person, but it's almost like at various stages in our lives, we're given the opportunities to unlearn and it sounds to me like as you put it, the universe was telling you to unlearn what true value looks like and to hopefully follow your passion into something just so much more valuable to you.
[00:24:55] Sophie Archer: I just couldn't agree with that more and I really got into something called The Artist's Way, which I know is very popular, written by Julia Cameron and it's a three month exercise whereby you do weekly written exercises and there's a book that accompanies the course and then you're encouraged every day to do some free writing which is just a stream of consciousness, first thing as you wake up and take yourself for an artist date which could be anything to going to an exhibition or just going for a walk by yourself and I think that was very instrumental as well in just focusing on everything I had, including kind of talents I had, passions I had, rather than what I didn't have and as you say, it's like the great unlearning and actually you just realise you have so much. like the incredible friends I have, family, resilience, passion for life,all the amazing children that I have in my life and that's not an overnight thing. There are definitely at times when, you have poor me moments, but I have to say, now I really do feel the other way and it's an incredible perspective to have.
[00:26:17] Patsy Day: That artist's way is very powerful, and it's also a grief companion, to work through all sorts of things and I think when you come out of an illness, you are grieving a part of yourself.
[00:26:28] Sophie Archer: I think you're so right, that can be a great companion for grief and actually so on brand for your podcast. In some ways, when you make a transition, it can be like a grief of the old you and your old career and the old way that you were, but actually it's kind of the same with divorce, which is you can reframe it, I actually had a really successful chapter at that.I I had a long period being a lawyer, I really loved it, I got so much out of it, things that I'll hold onto forever, same way with my relationship and now it's time for something else and I think that companion, that book really helped me reframe it in that way.
[00:27:10] Susannah de Jager: I find another thing that can be really helpful is the idea of looking back on yourself from a future date and so if I were to read somebody else's biography and they've had five different iterations, I think, wow, how inspiring, cool, what an amazing life.Whereas when I think about making that pivot myself I think how terrifying I'll have to start again! But I think it's quite good to put yourself in your 95 year old shoes, hopefully if we get there, and to say, what would I view as a valuable, interesting life. Would I wish I had taken that risk? All of these things, I think, as I said earlier, they need to be unlearned.
[00:27:50] Patsy Day: Sophie, what would you tell your 30 year old self?
[00:27:53] Sophie Archer: Oh My gosh, what a question. I think There is strength in flexibility, and I think I've definitely had really wobbly moments when I've thought, you know, you should be able to stick at one thing and just complete it and execute it, what's wrong with you? And actually, a very wise person once told me, there's strength in the reed that can take the gust of wind and that can flow with the wind, rather than it is so rigid that when the big gust of wind comes, it just shatters in half.
[00:28:27] Patsy Day: Well, when we've spoken previously, you've said that not every decision is perfect and not making a decision is not moving forward.
[00:28:36] Sophie Archer: Gosh, I'm so wise.
[00:28:37] Susannah de Jager: I thought so too, Sophs!
[00:28:41] Sophie Archer: So profound, so profound, yes, yes, okay, that was a good one. I think sometimes moving forward is a great one and actually, just, yeah, to keep moving forward is a good mantra in life, actually.
[00:28:58] Patsy Day: So before Masterchef, had you been on the telly at all? Did you have any sort of experience in that and what was the hardest thing about it?
[00:29:07] Sophie Archer: I had never been on the telly before Masterchef, no,and what was the hardest thing about Masterchef? Do you know what, the hardest thing about Masterchef was myself, and this is a great lesson in life, I was essentially competing against myself, and my competition, i.e. me, was pretty brutal and I wish I'd been a little bit kinder to myself.
[00:29:31] Patsy Day: What were the cliches you used most often in your post show interview?
[00:29:35] Sophie Archer: Oh God I got so emotional. I'd be absolutely fine, cool as a cucumber and then about two minutes in I'd suddenly notice the tears welling in my eyes and then what is going on?
So that was certainly a cliche. You just, I was definitely coming out with loads of cheesy things. I was quite taken aback by Marcus Waring. I think that probably is going to show, which is highly embarrassing in every way. So, yeah, can't wait for it to air!
[00:30:07] Susannah de Jager: He's got the blue eyes, the blue eyes, yeah, totally, I get it!
[00:30:10] Sophie Archer: Yeah. They're quite piercing. Yeah.
[00:30:13] Susannah de Jager: See into your soul.
[00:30:14] Sophie Archer: I didn't notice though, obviously.
[00:30:18] Susannah de Jager: And you've also got your own podcast coming out, which is How to Cook a Gremlin, very much focused on people's lives through food. Do you want to explain what the concept of How to Cook a Gremlin is? Because it may not be familiar to everyone listening.
[00:30:32] Sophie Archer: The podcast is about interviewing people that have taken unconventional paths, because that obviously resonates with me and as well as that through line, the other through line is, it's talking about people's journey through their life through dishes and recipes. So we talk about people's favourite dish or recipe that's got them through heartbreak, success and fun, and then finally how to cook a gremlin and that metaphor for facing challenging or transitional times in life and as well as that, it's very heartwarming and joyful and uplifting. it's really interesting how in that kind of half an hour, you really get to know someone because everyone eats and whatever your view on food, it's like quite central to a lot of people's lives, so it can be very revealing.
[00:31:26] Susannah de Jager: Amazing. I think it'll be really interesting for anyone going through a pivot in the wobbly middle to listen to that and hopefully get further inspiration on how to weather things and what to cook while you're doing it.
[00:31:38] Sophie Archer: Absolutely.
[00:31:39] Susannah de Jager: Amazing.
Thank you so much, Sophie. This has been a really generous conversation and you've been so open and thank you.
[00:31:48] Patsy Day: Thank very much!
[00:31:49] Sophie Archer: I've it, thank you.
[00:31:51] Patsy Day: Thank, you for listening to The Wobbly Middle. If you enjoyed it, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify. It really makes a difference and if you're in the wobbly middle of your career and would like to share your story with us, please drop us a line via Substack, Instagram, or Facebook. We'd love to hear what's inspiring you or if you're out the other side of your wobbly middle, please let us know how you got there.